dancing question
Hermangelo Regina
"Danny" <drob...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>KlReiter <klre...@aol.com> wrote in article
><19970822164...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>> A quite stupid and confusing thing for so called teachers to do, isn't it
>?
>> I teach and was teached beginning on one with the forward step - I don't
>> see anything that should be confusing about this. IMH teaching something
>> *that* different from what you dance is about the worst a teacher can do.
>Yep. That's why it's important to learn as much as possible from a wide
>variety of sources (such as this NG).
Also to learn from different danceteachers. I have the impression that
here in Holland most of the teachers learned from same source. Because
some teachers dance the same style.
> Also, some background or knowledge
>of music theory can be good. An intro music theory course I took early in
>my college education was a big help when I started to take these classes.
>Also, I had done some DJing (mostly private parties plus some small clubs
>here and there) so I already had a heavy beat-orientation. When you're
>mixing records, it's very important while beat-synching not to mix a one
>beat on top of a two-beat (or any other beat for that matter). Garbage-in,
>garbage-out if you follow what I mean: synchronizing different beats can
>sound very bad.
>> BTW: I prefer to start without the kick / tap. I think the basic rythmn
>of
>> salsa is much easier to understand and learn without it. If you've got
>it,
>> then you can add the kick (if you like to).
>>
>Yes to all your points. However, I forgot to mention that I have seen a
>number of people dance with a kick/tap both on one and two. Usually, it
>looks amateurish but actually, it's an authentic way to dance to charanga.
>It's particularly common amongst the older folks up in the Bronx who still
>enjoy dancing to this music. The tap, though, is softened out, almost
>disguised, which gives it a very nice look.
>> But that leads me to something I allready mentioned some time ago in this
>> group, but nobody wanted to believe (or care?). Regarding Eddie Torre's
>> videos I see him doing exactly the same! Well, he breaks on 2, of course.
>> But he teaches to skip a beat (avoiding the word 'pause') on 4, while he
>> skips the 1 when dancing to music. Look at the opening scene, for
>example!
>>
>Yikes. Here we go again. I remember responding to you in a tizzy last year
>over this! With a little more experience, all I can add now is that the
>more advanced dancers do have a tendency of coming early on the one,
>because they want to emphasize the forward break beat. It's fun to do
>this, it feels good, plus, it breaks the monotony of the pattern. I've
>been taking classes with Delille, who's featured prominently in the video,
>for over a year now, and I found myself noticing this and doing it more and
>more over that period. Perhaps Eddie is guilty of oversimplification. But
>I still think you're exaggerating the problem.
>Try this: dance 2,3 / 5,6,7,8 (this is what you describe you are seeing)
>while Eddie is on in the beginning segment. If you are completely in synch
>with him throughout the demonstration, then you are right.
>> Oh, yes, a short note to Mary: You said only people in Cuba and South
>> America don't dance on two. Try to find someone who breaks on two in
>> Germany... good look! ;-)
>> (There are some - but extremely few. Pedro Gomez - who started quite a
>> "Salsa Puertorican Style" craze here - gave up teaching on two...)
What is breaking on two? I allways thought that dancing on two was
kick/tap on the first beat and dance 2-3-4 and dancing on one was
dancing 1-2-3 -kick/tap on 4, or dance 1- rest on 2- than dance
3-4.
>Let me just add that dancing on two originated from Cuba or so I have been
>told various times. Whether it's still common there or not I cannot say,
>since I've never been to Cuba and I have only a few Cuban friends
>(non-dancers most of them and haven't been to the island in a LONG time as
>you can imagine). What I can offer as evidence is a Cuban government-made
>documentary made in the 70s of Ignacio Piniero which I have in VHS format.
>In two different sones played by a sexteto, two different couples (one in
>each) demonstrate dancing to the son and throughout most of both pieces,
>they are CLEARLY dancing on two with this pattern: 1,2,3 / 5,6,7. It seems
>safe to say that this particular step pattern has been around for a long
>time, and may even have been quite common way back in the era when the
>Cuban son was prominent.
I learned to dance son by tapping on 1 and dance 2-3-4. I learned it
from a Brazilian teacher her in Holland. Maybe his timing was bad? He
learned me to tap on the click sound of the bongo. The song was
Dumdumbanza performed bij Sierra Maestra.
>What's really interesting about this is that most people say the reason
>dancing on two is the correct or "cool" way is because it's complimentary
>to the tumbao. Yet there is no conga in a sexteto and in most music that
>would be called traditional Cuban son. So the mystique that dancing on two
>seems to have may be more from the longstanding tradition/historical
>connection that's involved rather than the practical sense of dancing in
>agreement to percussive elements although, of course, that is true also -
>dancing 1,2,3 / 5,6,7 agrees well with both clave and tumbao.
>This stuff brings out the anthropologist in me. Anyone else out there with
>any leads/ideas on this matter?
Maybe this is correct. I come from Curacao. Their we dance some old
Cuban Son montunos. Older people dance 1-2-3. Somethimes without the
pause??? Maybe this came because the extensive relations with Cuba in
the days before Castro. In those days many people from Curacao worked
in Cuba. Maybe they brought the style to Curacao.
Hermangelo Regina
hf...@euronet.nl
Arnhem, The Netherlands.
Danny
Hermangelo Regina <hf...@euronet.nl> wrote in article
<5uadsd$1...@news3.euro.net>...
> What is breaking on two? I allways thought that dancing on two was
> kick/tap on the first beat and dance 2-3-4 and dancing on one was
> dancing 1-2-3 -kick/tap on 4, or dance 1- rest on 2- than dance
> 3-4.
There are two ways to dance or break "on two." Bear with me since
describing dance steps is a little difficult as opposed to just showing
them.
The first is as you described above with a kick/tap on one or just stepping
over the one beat. I have seen this identified as American or ballroom
mambo (I'm not promoting or approving any of these labels mentioned in this
post, by the way, I'm just reporting what I've heard/read).
Dancing/breaking on one uses the SAME footwork pattern (as you noted) but
just moves it over a beat so that the kick/tap or the stepover is on the
four. The ballroom instructors simply call this salsa.
Then you have what I have seen described as the New York two or the Cuban
two. This is the way that most of the freelance teachers in NYC teach the
basic step. It is mechanically different (as you will see) from the
ballroom mambo which is usually taught in most of the ballroom studios here
in NYC. There is a perception amongst the dancers that go out often that
because the freelancers learned and earned their reputation from dancing in
the clubs (as opposed to instructors affiliated with a ballroom studio who
probably had more formal training), their technique is "cooler" and more in
touch with reality.
Although I have implied that "street dancers" may have less formal
training, I am by no means putting them down. In fact, nowadays, I'm sure
that the best of them have some background in some other kind of dance
whether it be jazz, tap, African, hip-hop, or even ballet. In fact,
because of pioneers and mega-talents like Eddie Torres, the "state of the
art" in NYC has definitely gone up over the years and just like other
genres of dance, it now takes many years of effort and practice (if not
formal training) to make it to a level where you can teach salsa/mambo to a
lot of people, do shows, choreograph, etc.
To sum up, in NYC, there is a healthy ballroom scene and there is a vibrant
salsa club scene but there is only a little bit of overlap between those
two spheres in terms of the people and the technique/style.
So why do the ballroom studios stick to teaching it their way? Tradition
and rules. The people the ballroom studios attract are usually not the
same as the people that go out salsa dancing a lot so they don't have to
compete for the same crowd with the freelancers. Also, all ballroom dance
classes, even the basic ones, are taught with the ultimate goal to prepare
people for competition and ballroom competitions have very specific rules.
If you dance in a ballroom mambo contest and you dance on one or on the
Cuban two, even if the audience liked you the best, you won't win because
the judges are looking for you to use the traditional ballroom mambo basic:
2-3-4 / 6-7-8.
So let me finally answer your questions and describe the New York two. In
this version of breaking on two you step over the four and eight beats but
instead of stepping forward on one with your left (which would be breaking
on one), you take a small step forward with your rt. foot on one and then
another slightly longer step forward with your lt. foot on two! You step
in place with your rt. on three and then your lt. foot starts to go back on
four landing on five. Your rt. foot takes another step back on six and your
lt. steps in place on seven. Your rt. foot comes forward on eight landing
on one to repeat the pattern. . .
The key difference here is that there is no return to center. You are
continuously stepping/moving forward and backward. The novice dancers tend
to exaggerate that motion but the continuity is supposed to be there. Here
are some other differences that I've summed up in this impromptu table:
Breaking on Two
type: "American/ballroom" "NY/Cuban"
2 - 3 - 4 / 6 - 7- 8 1 - 2 - 3 / 5 - 6 - 7
lt.-rt.-lt. / rt.-lt.-rt. rt.-lt.-rt. / lt.-rt.-lt.
2 3 4 / 1 2 3 /
forward - in place - back / forward - forward - in place /
6 7 8 5 6 7
back - in place - forward back - back - in place
Some ballroom mambo instructors encourage "opening" the mambo basic so that
you don't return to a center but you will see when you try the NY way to
break on two that it's almost impossible to dance it closed. You could try
to force your feet to come together on one and five but it will feel very
unnatural.
There are two key factors, IMHO, that give the Cuban two it's special
feeling and differentiate it structurally from the other two timings
(ballroom mambo and breaking on one). The first is what I said above about
its inherent openness. The second is that the break step is in the middle
of the three-step pattern as opposed to the other two timings where it's
right in the beginning. Again, I personally think it's these two
structural differences that make the Cuban two feel different from the
other timings - you get a sense of "gliding through the patterns." "You
never stop dancing" was a way another woman recently described it to me.
Some of you may be confused out there. "Wait a second," you're thinking,
"how can New Yorkers call that breaking on two when I'm stepping on the one
beat with my right foot?"
Okay, here goes: a break step is when your body changes motion/direction.
So whether you dance ballroom or NY-style, you are still using the two beat
(and it's counterpart in the second bar, the six beat) to shift from
forward to backward or from backward to forward direction. Again, as
stated above, a little subtlety is key here to make it look nice.
Here's another example: an "open break" is a common step pattern taught by
both freelance and ballroom mambo instructors in NYC. It's usually used as
a setup step for certain kinds of turns. The "break" mentioned here occurs
on the two beat whether you dance on the ballroom or the NY two. Likewise,
it occurs on the one when you're breaking on one. When I compare ballroom
vs. NY while executing an open break, I still feel a difference even though
I know I'm breaking on the same beat. See above paragraphs for why I think
this is so.
> I learned to dance son by tapping on 1 and dance 2-3-4. I learned it
> from a Brazilian teacher her in Holland. Maybe his timing was bad?
I believe there is no such thing as bad timing as long as you are dancing
in tempo with the music. Some mavens might argue that the NY two is
aesthetically superior. I wouldn't go that far but I do think it feels
better and is more fun. I don't waste my time putting people down for not
dancing on the "hip" timing.
> I come from Curacao. Their we dance some old
> Cuban Son montunos. Older people dance 1-2-3. Somethimes without the
> pause??? Maybe this came because the extensive relations with Cuba in
> the days before Castro. In those days many people from Curacao worked
> in Cuba. Maybe they brought the style to Curacao.
>
Hmmmmmmm. . . .
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