Arturo Sandoval Article from 16-Nov-00 Chicago Tribune
malanga
ACTOR GARCIA, MUSICIAN SANDOVAL KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT CUBA FIRSTHAND
Michael Kilian
November 16, 2000
Chicago Tribune
NEW YORK -- Not everyone is jumping for joy at America's burgeoning
diplomatic and cultural detente with the Castro regime in Cuba.
Certainly everyone yearns for an end to the decades of hostility between the
U.S. and its Communist island neighbor.
And it's been an inspiration and revelation to have those wonderful old guys
from the Buena Vista Social Club featured in an Oscar-nominated film and
given their own concert at Carnegie Hall. And to have the Washington Ballet
go on tour in Cuba.
But there are a couple of artists who might counsel a little more skepticism
and restraint -- and reflection upon the nature of the beast with whom we're
dealing.
One is Arturo Sandoval, the hugely talented Cuban trumpet player who
defected to the U.S. a decade ago, largely because in Cuba he was allowed to
play only state-approved music, and was punished if he attempted anything
else (i.e. American jazz).
A protege of Dizzy Gillespie, who secured Sandoval's asylum by intervening
directly with his pal Vice President Dan Quayle (You didn't know he did
riffs?), Sandoval now lives in Miami, where he finds a few shades of
difference between life there and Cuba.
"I am the luckiest man in the world and have truly been blessed," he said.
"I have a beautiful family, I am able to make a living from a career I am
passionate about and I live in a country where I am free to think and speak
about what I want."
The other artist is the Cuban-born American actor Andy Garcia, who plays
Sandoval in a new movie about the musician's life, struggle and ultimate
escape called, "For Love or Country," telecast on the HBO cable station at 8
p.m. Saturday. "I had met him once after he had defected, so I was aware of
him," Garcia said. "I knew friends of his, other members of his group with a
similar story of defection. So I'm very much in tune with the plight of the
Cuban musician."
To be sure, that plight hasn't been quite so extreme as, say, what Russian
painters such as Casimir Malevich and musicians like Dmitri Shostokovich and
Mistislav Rostropovich endured in Stalin's Soviet Union. There one painted
pictures of happy peasants and workers, or wrote music about rivers and
trees, or one went off to die in the gulags.
Given life in Cuba, Sandoval had it pretty good. He did once have to spend
four months in prison for being caught listening to the Voice of America,
but after that was merely followed and spied upon. He lived comfortably,
owned an actual car and was married to a beautiful woman who was a
card-carrying Communist, held a good government job and was a loyal
supporter of Castro.
Sandoval was a starring performer in a state-sanctioned orchestra. Later, he
formed his own band, which played a kind of jazz he disguised as "Irakere,"
or African jungle music, and was even allowed to leave Cuba on tour.
But he wanted desperately to play the real thing, to take his place
alongside such modern jazz masters as Gillespie. When he persisted in this
unsanctioned thought and (ultimately) behavior, the Castro apparat came down
on him hard.
Ironically, the biggest obstacle to his eventually taking refuge in the U.S.
was the State Department, which, noting his wife's Commie connections,
opined that Sandoval did indeed have it pretty good and surmised he was less
interested in more freedom than he was in a fat American paycheck.
But the otherwise ineffectual Quayle really did intervene.
"It sounds like a movie moment, but that's the way it happened," Garcia
said. "Dizzy called him and said, `I got a buddy here who's in trouble. I
vouch for him,' and Dan Quayle pulled the trigger."
Sandoval's wife, Marianela, who came to view Castro as the betrayer of the
democratic revolution he claimed to lead, was able to escape at the same
time. Their relatives were not so fortunate.
"When you leave, they punish the people you leave behind," said Garcia, who
came to this country at the age of 5 in 1961. "That's their trump card.
That's why they don't let people travel with their families."
"His parents were repressed after (Sandoval) left," Garcia said. "They
finally came to the U.S. on a raft. At 69 and 75, they were the oldest
refugees."
Garcia, who made a similar but more tragic film in 1997 about the murdered
revolutionary Spanish poet Garcia Lorca, brings to the Sandoval story not
only a Cuban emigre's background but a musician's.
"I play percussion and I play piano," he said. "I no longer play the
trumpet. I just did it for the film. It's a very demanding instrument, if
you want to have any kidneys left."
Mia Maestro, the stunning actress who performs as Sandoval's wife and was
memorably seen as the intoxicating dancing star of the Surrealist film
"Tango," provides a special resonance of her own.
"She got the part of the betrayal and the tragedy of what happened to her
life very deeply," Garcia said. "She had a similar experience in Argentina.
She grew up in a dictatorship and had that to draw upon."
Filmed in Miami and Puerto Rico, "For Love or Country" does include the
drumhead trial and execution of a Cuban general whose only crime was
popularity, but leaves out a lot, such as some of the more interesting
government notions on forms of penal servitude.
"They put homosexuals in jails called `drawers,'" said Garcia. "You'd be
standing up against the wall and the gate of the cell would close against
your chest. It was like being put in a toaster -- for weeks.
"Americans have no idea [of] the atrocities that have been committed.
Amnesty International knows about that, but it's never been in the American
media. In the long run, that will all come out, and, more importantly,
democracy will set foot and grow again in an island that deserves that kind
of freedom."
MS
"malanga" <mal...@xxx.yyy> wrote in message
news:8v1dup$4pg$1...@eeyore.INS.CWRU.Edu...
> One is Arturo Sandoval, the hugely talented Cuban trumpet player who
> defected to the U.S. a decade ago, largely because in Cuba he was allowed
to
> play only state-approved music, and was punished if he attempted anything
> else (i.e. American jazz).
I think that's a misstatement, which they might be making in the movie.
(Haven't seen it yet, will do so tonight.)
Yes, at one time American jazz and pop music was banned in Cuba. That was
long before Sandoval defected to the U.S. though. So, although it's possible
that at one time he (as well as others) was listening to and playing jazz
clandestinely, that certainly wasn't the case at the time of his defection.
He was then playing in a Cuban jazz group, Irakere, that had worldwide
acclaim, and was touring the world. There is now a jazz festival in Cuba, in
which many American musicians play. American pop music is popular there.
(Well, I think it always was. People once listened clandestinely to the
Beatles from American radio stations. but now it's listened to openly, and
the new Cuban popular music is very influenced by North American pop music.)
So, whatever reasons Sandoval had for leaving Cuba, including unhappiness
with the government there, I don't think that "being punished for playing
jazz" was one of them. Not only was he not "punished" for playing jazz (at
the time of leaving), he was living a life quite privileged by Cuban
standards, touring around the world with Irakere, a jazz band. He was also a
card-carrying member of the communist party (which caused him some trouble
in obtaining U.S. citizenship later). He was certainly not an open dissident
in Cuba, being punished for his views and music.
Well, movies about real people often are loose with the facts, to try to
create dramatic interest. I'll still watch it tonight.
MS
yet seen it.
But yes, some aspects such as I mentioned below are perhaps not completely
accurate, put in for dramatic emphasis. Or the ads for it in which something
is said like "they were afraid of my music". If he was singing anti-Fidel
lyrics, yes they would be afraid of his music and censor him. But there's no
reason "they" would have been "afraid" of his trumpet notes.
Does anyone know whether re really had that difficulty in obtaining asylum
in the U.S. (I know he had later difficulties with citizenship, but I wonder
if the sub-story there about asylum was accurate.)
It was also a little strange that in a story that featured the band Irakere,
Chucho Valdes, the leader of that band, hardly figured in the story at all,
his name was only mentioned once. (whereas Paquito D'Rivera was an important
character in the movie.)
But again, overall an excellent movie, well done. I'd recommend it.
" MS" <m...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:t1ecaj2...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "malanga" <mal...@xxx.yyy> wrote in message
> news:8v1dup$4pg$1...@eeyore.INS.CWRU.Edu...
>
> > One is Arturo Sandoval, the hugely talented Cuban trumpet player who
> > defected to the U.S. a decade ago, largely because in Cuba he was
allowed
> to
> > play only state-approved music, and was punished if he attempted
anything
> > else (i.e. American jazz).
>
MS
Lieutenant Colombo here again---"just one more thing"!
There was something else I intended to mention in my last post and forgot.
Something else in the film that I think is inaccurate, an invention of a
Hollywood screen writer--
It is suggested in the film that Irakere added Latin rhythms, congas, etc.
to their music in order to "disguise" it from the authorities, so they
wouldn't realize it was jazz. I don't think that's true. Chucho Valdes, who
started the group, has always been interested in fusing Cuban elements into
jazz, as he is now doing with his quartet. He has also played some straight
ahead (i.e. non-latin) jazz, but most of his music has involved Cuban
elements. Arturo Sandoval and Paquito D'Rivera, since leaving Cuba, away
from the control of the Cuban government, have both continued to play
"Latin" jazz, with congas, etc. (Some "straight-ahead" jazz too, but mostly
"Latin".) Is that also for "camouflage"?
It also looks in the film like Sandoval created Irakere, when in fact it was
Chucho Valdés.
Well, I guess one really can't expect Hollywood screenwriters to stick to
facts. I wish they would be more accurate, in portraying real people and
events. Still, an excellent movie, fun to watch.
Denise Oliver-Velez
wrote:
(snip)
>Well, I guess one really can't expect Hollywood screenwriters to stick to
>facts. I wish they would be more accurate, in portraying real people and
>events. Still, an excellent movie, fun to watch.
>
Thought I'd disagree with the above review.
Had two weekend house guests - both musicians - and they stayed up to
watch the film with my husband and me.
Husband fell asleep after the first 20 minutes.
I fought to stay awake - just to be able to give a valid critique, but
it was difficult. The visiting musicians (both drummers - one plays
jazz, the other rumba and jazz) were perturbed by the "throw some
congas in to disguise the jazz content" line re: Irekere. They managed
to stay awake till the bitter end - gave it a thumbs down, and
retreated to another room to practice drum patterns. I stumbled
upstairs to join snoring husband.
Diz seemed to have the only line in the film about Africa and its
primary role in Afro-Cuban music (in the brief sequence where he gets
to dance with a sistah in the street)
The rest of the tedious melodrama should have been promoted as a
novela. I have nothing against Sandoval, or his music, or his choice
to join the Miami minions. It's his life. I do have a problem with
this piece getting a heavy promotion budget and backing and other
equally worthy scripts that have been offered to HBO and other like
venues never making it into pre-production.
I would have appreciated a film that showed much more about the music
of Cuba, its roots, the interface with jazz (again Diz gets the line
about "Chano's pad") but we get little meat re educating the viewer
about Chano Pozo or any other historical musical greats.
But then the films real purpose seemed to be a propaganda piece
with a love story mask, pushing an Anti-Castro Cuba line with America
as the home of the free/land of the brave. Try to sell that one to
American black jazz musicians who have suffered under home-grown
racism right here under de ole Stars and Stripes.
Oh well, guess I have to wait for someone else to produce the film(s)
I'm waiting for. I'll go back to watching the chad count on CNN.
Denise
malanga
"Denise Oliver-Velez" <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:lbfg1t8pqan1llj8k...@4ax.com...
>
>
> But then the films real purpose seemed to be a propaganda piece
> with a love story mask, pushing an Anti-Castro Cuba line with America
> as the home of the free/land of the brave. Try to sell that one to
> American black jazz musicians who have suffered under home-grown
> racism right here under de ole Stars and Stripes.
>
...not to mention the endless wave of musicians, of any colour, that have
decided to defect to Cuba from the US.
Denise Oliver-Velez
>...not to mention the endless wave of musicians, of any colour, that have
>decided to defect to Cuba from the US.
>
>
>
Which says what? I doubt they would want to - Actually, they tended
to "defect" to Europe.
MS
"Clay Leander" <clay...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3A184924...@earthlink.net...
> How's life post-Monterey Peninsula for you, Mike?
Too busy to think much about it. Sometimes I miss friends and places there.
Still new here. The traffic here sometimes gets to me. And parking--you have
to pay to park at doctor's offices!
I'm sure I'll enjoy having some sun next summer, instead of constant fog and
clouds. How are things going there? I hear there has been a lot of music in
Santa Cruz.
malanga
Which says what?
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
--
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
My Home Page http://dmreed.com features my musical autobiography with audio
recordings, photos of groups I have worked with from the late 50s to the
present, rare 1960s recordings by pianist Carlos Federico, 1970s photos of
Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo,and selected LP and CD recordings from my
Latin music collection of CDs, LPs, tapes, books, and instructional
materials. Information about the US-International Keyboard (WINDOWS 95/98)
and a large printable keyboard image is also included.
04/18/00 NEW PAGE: RumbaRama (http://dmreed.com/rumbarama.htm) which
contains audio links to rumba recordings on my site and to other links and
information.
"malanga" <mal...@xxx.yyy> wrote in message
news:8va3qm$rj1$1...@eeyore.INS.CWRU.Edu...
Santa Salsera
> But then the films real purpose seemed to be a propaganda piece
> with a love story mask, pushing an Anti-Castro Cuba line with America
> as the home of the free/land of the brave. Try to sell that one to
> American black jazz musicians who have suffered under home-grown
> racism right here under de ole Stars and Stripes.
>
> Oh well, guess I have to wait for someone else to produce the film(s)
> I'm waiting for. I'll go back to watching the chad count on CNN.
>
> Denise
Excellent review. What films are you waiting for? This could be an interesting
topic for discussion.
Back to "Chad Watch 2000"...
-Fab
César Norberto Díaz
<deol...@pipeline.com> wrote in part:
>Thought I'd disagree with the above review.
>
>Had two weekend house guests - both musicians - and they stayed up to
>watch the film with my husband and me.
>
>Husband fell asleep after the first 20 minutes.
>
I stayed long enough to spot a glaring oversight. Ignacio Berroa. I
met Ignacio briefly in Miami, February last year. Ignacio is an
afro-Cuban, the guy portraying him in the film is caucasian.
Admittedly, a minor oversight, but, if they couldn't get that
right....what about the rest?
Denise Oliver-Velez
Díaz) wrote:
>
>I stayed long enough to spot a glaring oversight. Ignacio Berroa. I
>met Ignacio briefly in Miami, February last year. Ignacio is an
>afro-Cuban, the guy portraying him in the film is caucasian.
>Admittedly, a minor oversight, but, if they couldn't get that
>right....what about the rest?
Heh heh , well it wasn't a very Afro-Cuban cast - period. It had a
few dark tokens - but the "leading lights" of the piece ( excuse my
bad pun) were not even cafe-con-leche.
Denise
who is caramel
malanga
"Denise Oliver-Velez" <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:mo232t077ie6r2t07...@4ax.com...
>
> Heh heh , well it wasn't a very Afro-Cuban cast - period. It had a
> few dark tokens - but the "leading lights" of the piece ( excuse my
> bad pun) were not even cafe-con-leche.
>
> Denise
> who is caramel
Damn.... I wonder... has someone been bleaching Arturo Sandoval and the rest
of the Sandoval family all these years? are they really all Afro-Cubans in
white face? should we ask for an official recount of the members of his
family to see if the movie does or doesn't win Afro-Cuban muster? anyone
got pictures of Sandoval's abuela?
It snores.
George Rivera
Chucho Valdes. Gee, I wonder why???
--
Musically,
George Rivera
gri...@surfree.com
"Cuando Puerto Rico comprenda el valor de su folklore, luchará con mucha
fuerza para defender su honor."
- Don Rafael Cepeda
"Denise Oliver-Velez" <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:mo232t077ie6r2t07...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 21:21:01 GMT, Gbau...@hotmail.com (César Norberto
> Díaz) wrote:
>
> >
> >I stayed long enough to spot a glaring oversight. Ignacio Berroa. I
> >met Ignacio briefly in Miami, February last year. Ignacio is an
> >afro-Cuban, the guy portraying him in the film is caucasian.
> >Admittedly, a minor oversight, but, if they couldn't get that
> >right....what about the rest?
>
>
Denise Oliver-Velez
<sal...@nospampicadillo.com> wrote:
>Excellent review. What films are you waiting for? This could be an interesting
>topic for discussion.
>
>Back to "Chad Watch 2000"...
>
>-Fab
Well now that I'm no longer watching chads and am waiting for the
court to exhale......
Movies I would like to see:
The REAL Billie Holiday Story (not Lady Sings the Blues with La Ross)
A "Saturday Night Fever" that shows Puerto Ricans inventing and
dancing the Latin hustle - based in el Barrio (East Harlem) not
Brooklyn
A salsa based musical with music not by Paul Simon
(sets and locations would re-create the Palladium, the Corso, and
other latin music nite clubs)
A Big Band Story(latin band) - take your pick - not Glenn Miller (El
Gran Combo might be a choice)
Want tragedy (try La Lupe for a hot female protagonist ) and don't
cast Madonna or Christina whatever her last name is) to play La Lupe
For action adventure, a film set on a Brazilian plantation with
capoeistas as the martial arts heroes) music by Gilberto Gil, Milton
Nascimento etc. or a film set in slave times in Cuba with drumming
(including cajones) and the formation of cabildos
The Maroon Wars (show runaways in Jamaica beating the British)
The Everglades Wars (show Seminoles and runaway slaves beating the
Americans)
For comedy (black humor) any vehicle starring Pedro Pietri playing
himself
A film called "Tambor" - music by Totico, Aguabella etc (not
Santana) - all musicians included should have Ocha or Anya,
(plot) the hero or heroine an aspiring young musician who gets
initiated into the religion - take your pick - lots of folk meet this
criteria including Tito Puente
Politics meet music - Do the Young Lords story - but not the current
project contemplated by HBO and protested by former Young Lords,
include music (lots of it) including the historic concert at the
Apollo Theater with Eddie Palmieri ( where the Young Rascals also
performed)
Can the Serpent and the Rainbow, and show the true story of Vodoun
(not Voodoo in Haiti, and show Haitians whipping everyone - the French
Spaniards etc
All That Jazz - with jazz
Anything that includes a scene with someone singing to Babaluaye
other than Ricky Ricardo doing it as a comedy routine in the context
of I Love Lucy
Perhaps a re-make of West Side Story with Puerto Ricans cast as the
Puerto Ricans (I have no objections to Lennies music) but some
additions to the soundtrack could be made with latin music
well Fab, there's my first stab at a wish list.....
lets see what everyone else can come up with
Denise
MS
"César Norberto Díaz" <Gbau...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a217d82...@news-server.si.rr.com...
> I stayed long enough to spot a glaring oversight. Ignacio Berroa. I
> met Ignacio briefly in Miami, February last year. Ignacio is an
> afro-Cuban, the guy portraying him in the film is caucasian.
> Admittedly, a minor oversight, but, if they couldn't get that
> right....what about the rest?
Yes, that was strange. Well, at least they didn't have a white guy playing
Dizzy Gillespie! As I mentioned, films about real people often aren't very
accurate in portraying them. Still, I enjoyed the film. Well done in
general, in spite of a few inaccuracies.
MS
"Denise Oliver-Velez" <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
> Heh heh , well it wasn't a very Afro-Cuban cast - period. It had a
> few dark tokens - but the "leading lights" of the piece ( excuse my
> bad pun) were not even cafe-con-leche.
Well, it seems that Dizzy Gillespie had a pretty important role in the
movie, and he wasn't exactly vanilla!
MS
>I'll go back to watching the chad count on CNN.
OT, but I wonder how many babies born in 2001 will be named "Chad"? ;-)
Denise Oliver-Velez
On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:33:54 -0800, " MS" <m...@nospam.com>
wrote:
OT also - but I wonder if Bush becomes Prez if he'll appoint the Sec
of State of Florida as Ambassadress to Chad
Yambu
<deol...@pipeline.com> wrote:
>..... I wonder if Bush becomes Prez if he'll appoint the Sec
>of State of Florida as Ambassadress to Chad
>
I volunteer to punch her dimples.
-Mike Doran
kaysee
of these stories would make good historical drama.
kaysee
Denise Oliver-Velez wrote in message <4u232t4b9g37i1cva...@4ax.com>...
kaysee
remember how shocked I was to discover that all those "not-white" people I
encountered in Miami last October at the LVV concert were actually Cuban? Media
portrayal of Cubans has consistently painted them as "Caucasian" ie white as opposed
to mulatto or black. I'm not saying - as malanga is suggesting - that the Sandoval
family should be portrayed as anything other than white, if that's how they appear.
But there should be some sort of integrity of portrayal there. After all, the move
was shot in Miami. Don't tell me they couldn't find one talented Cuban-American who
could have portrayed the gentleman mentioned by César.
It's like people assuming all Haitians are black and of completely African descent.
kaysee
MS wrote in message ...
>
>"Denise Oliver-Velez" <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
>
kaysee
have left Cuba permanently wanted to give up their Cuban citizenship. It certainly
seems that many of them had no choice, as it was the only way they could live in the
US. I guess the French and other Europeans didn't make giving up one's citizenship a
requirement for living and working there . . .
Which brings up another point. Do French residing groups like Orishas have to
renounce their Cuban citizenship in order to stay in Paris?
kaysee
Dennis M. Reed "Califa" wrote in message ...
malanga
"kaysee" <kays...@att.net> wrote in message
news:gejV5.1471$ab3....@news-east.usenetserver.com...
> I'm noting the "" on Denise's "defect". Also, I'm not convinced all the
Cubans who
> have left Cuba permanently wanted to give up their Cuban citizenship. It
certainly
> seems that many of them had no choice, as it was the only way they could
live in the
> US.
Wrong.... wrong... wrong.... at least if you are inferring this has
something to do with US policy.
There is no requirement at all for Cubans, or for that matter, any other
nationality which immigrates to the US to give up their citizenship. A
"green card" (permanent residency) is good for a lifetime (or at least, and
only in the past few years, you are convicted of a felony, whereupon you are
deported).
What did happen, however, is that the *Cuban government* as part of the
branding of those who left as "worms", "traitors", etc. etc. essentially
(and if I'm not mistakenly... "legally" i.e. by the rigamarole they go
through to make decisions in "defense of the Revolution") made these folks
who left Cuba non-citizens.
One of these charming edicts was passed in the past year or two in the wake
of all the athletes who defected.... it establishes that anyone who leaves
w/o "permission" from the state is *permanently* barred from ever
re-entering the island (which, well... imo, is much worse than having one's
citizenship revoked).
Santa Salsera
-Fab
MS
"malanga" <mal...@xxx.yyy> wrote in message
> What did happen, however, is that the *Cuban government* as part of the
> branding of those who left as "worms", "traitors", etc. etc. essentially
> (and if I'm not mistakenly... "legally" i.e. by the rigamarole they go
> through to make decisions in "defense of the Revolution") made these folks
> who left Cuba non-citizens.
But isn't the Cuban government now eager for Cuban exiles to come visit and
spend money? And the Cuban government requires anyone visiting who was born
in Cuba to come on a Cuban passport, even if they have become citizens of
the U.S. or other countries since leaving, no?
MS
predominantly white, while in actuality they are predominantly mulatto and
black. That is because we see the leaders of the Cuban government on TV and
in the newspapers, and they are all white. We see the leaders of the Miami
Cuban community, and they are white. The leaders on both sides are not
representative of the population.
"kaysee" <kays...@att.net> wrote in message
news:jejV5.1473$ab3....@news-east.usenetserver.com...
> I have to admit it would be pretty hard to show Dizzy as a white guy . . .
But
> remember how shocked I was to discover that all those "not-white" people I
> encountered in Miami last October at the LVV concert were actually Cuban?
Media
> portrayal of Cubans has consistently painted them as "Caucasian" ie white
as opposed
> to mulatto or black. I'm not saying - as malanga is suggesting - that the
Sandoval
> family should be portrayed as anything other than white, if that's how
they appear.
> But there should be some sort of integrity of portrayal there. After all,
the move
> was shot in Miami. Don't tell me they couldn't find one talented
Cuban-American who
> could have portrayed the gentleman mentioned by César.
>
> It's like people assuming all Haitians are black and of completely African
descent.
>
> kaysee
>
> MS wrote in message ...
> >
> >"Denise Oliver-Velez" <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
> >
MS
> >
> >>I'll go back to watching the chad count on CNN.
> >
> >OT, but I wonder how many babies born in 2001 will be named "Chad"? ;-)
>
> of State of Florida as Ambassadress to Chad
And I wonder how many of those Chads will have dimples? And how many will
become pregnant?
malanga
" MS" <m...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:t2iag3l...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "malanga" <mal...@xxx.yyy> wrote in message
>
> > What did happen, however, is that the *Cuban government* as part of the
> > branding of those who left as "worms", "traitors", etc. etc. essentially
> > (and if I'm not mistakenly... "legally" i.e. by the rigamarole they go
> > through to make decisions in "defense of the Revolution") made these
folks
> > who left Cuba non-citizens.
>
> But isn't the Cuban government now eager for Cuban exiles to come visit
and
> spend money?
No... not "Cuban exiles" but those who pass muster. Again... by law anyone
who now leaves illegally is banned from ever going back. As to all others...
well... they screen and issue "passports" only to those who, by their
standards, pass muster (they did this even during the "openness" of the
Pope's visit).
> And the Cuban government requires anyone visiting who was born
> in Cuba to come on a Cuban passport, even if they have become citizens of
> the U.S. or other countries since leaving, no?
Yes... kind of ironic, that, they take away one's citizenship, yet require
one to get a Cuban passport (although not everyone... if I recall correctly,
it depends, among other things on when one left).
The reason they do all this should be obvious... control, control, control.
You misbehave outside Cuba (i.e. you express opposition), you don't get a
passport. You misbehave (again, under their standards of like "propaganda
enemiga") inside Cuba, well... you aren't travelling as a citizen of say,
the UK or Spain, but as a Cuban subject... i.e. legally (including
technically under international law) you're a Cuban.
Santa Salsera
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 13:54:50 -0500, Santa Salsera
> <sal...@nospampicadillo.com> wrote:
>
> >Excellent review. What films are you waiting for? This could be an interesting
> >topic for discussion.
> >
> >Back to "Chad Watch 2000"...
> >
> >-Fab
>
> Well now that I'm no longer watching chads and am waiting for the
> court to exhale......
>
> Movies I would like to see:
>
> The REAL Billie Holiday Story (not Lady Sings the Blues with La Ross)
Amen to that. Maybe Natalie Cole could play her with some empathy instead of
melodrama. Giancarlo Esposito can take the Billy Dee Williams role. But then he can
take any role, as far as I'm concerned.
> A "Saturday Night Fever" that shows Puerto Ricans inventing and
> dancing the Latin hustle - based in el Barrio (East Harlem) not
> Brooklyn
You mean it wasn't Italians? *grin*
> A salsa based musical with music not by Paul Simon
> (sets and locations would re-create the Palladium, the Corso, and
> other latin music nite clubs)
I'm missing the reference, but still say amen.
> A Big Band Story(latin band) - take your pick - not Glenn Miller (El
> Gran Combo might be a choice)
I'd go see it.
> Want tragedy (try La Lupe for a hot female protagonist ) and don't
> cast Madonna or Christina whatever her last name is) to play La Lupe
Or Jennifer Lopez?
> For action adventure, a film set on a Brazilian plantation with
> capoeistas as the martial arts heroes) music by Gilberto Gil, Milton
> Nascimento etc. or a film set in slave times in Cuba with drumming
> (including cajones) and the formation of cabildos
Oh now, slow down there Denise, you know we can't sell mainstream images of
rebellious Negroes...except, *maybe*, on a plantation, but even that may hit too
close to home for some folks.
> The Maroon Wars (show runaways in Jamaica beating the British)
Speaking of which, has there been a decent film about Bob Marley? That would be a
good one, right there. Maybe Lenny Kravitz could play him? His mom was an actress,
right...
> The Everglades Wars (show Seminoles and runaway slaves beating the
> Americans)
...with their own ballot boxes? *grin*
> For comedy (black humor) any vehicle starring Pedro Pietri playing
> himself
Not familiar with this guy.
> A film called "Tambor" - music by Totico, Aguabella etc (not
> Santana) - all musicians included should have Ocha or Anya,
> (plot) the hero or heroine an aspiring young musician who gets
> initiated into the religion - take your pick - lots of folk meet this
> criteria including Tito Puente
Just the other day I saw some top-rated crime drama that used Santeria as colorful
backdrop--naturally the Santeria store owner/priest, named "Machete" (a word the
detectives mysteriously had some trouble making out), turned out to be the drug
kingpin/villain/murderer. I was kind of surprised to see this kind of
representation of Afro-Caribbean religions (a la Angel Heart) still circulating
like coin of the realm.
> Politics meet music - Do the Young Lords story - but not the current
> project contemplated by HBO and protested by former Young Lords,
> include music (lots of it) including the historic concert at the
> Apollo Theater with Eddie Palmieri ( where the Young Rascals also
> performed)
>
> Can the Serpent and the Rainbow, and show the true story of Vodoun
> (not Voodoo in Haiti, and show Haitians whipping everyone - the French
> Spaniards etc
>
> All That Jazz - with jazz
>
> Anything that includes a scene with someone singing to Babaluaye
> other than Ricky Ricardo doing it as a comedy routine in the context
> of I Love Lucy
>
> Perhaps a re-make of West Side Story with Puerto Ricans cast as the
> Puerto Ricans (I have no objections to Lennies music) but some
> additions to the soundtrack could be made with latin music
Yeah, I have heard that Lenny himself was so disgusted with the sanitized way the
movie depicted social reality that he completely disowned it.
> well Fab, there's my first stab at a wish list.....
And what a stab it is...sorry it took me so long to respond, I was just cogitatin'
and procrastinatin'. Thanks for sharing your brainchildren with us.
-Fab
MS
"malanga" <mal...@xxx.yyy> wrote in message
> > But isn't the Cuban government now eager for Cuban exiles to come visit
> and
> > spend money?
>
> No... not "Cuban exiles" but those who pass muster. Again... by law anyone
> who now leaves illegally is banned from ever going back. As to all
others...
> well... they screen and issue "passports" only to those who, by their
> standards, pass muster (they did this even during the "openness" of the
> Pope's visit).
>
How do they screen them and see if they "pass muster"? A lot of
Cuban-Americans do visit Cuba regularly, no? I once went on the charter
flight from Tijuana to Havana, and most of the passengers were
Cuban-Americans. I know someone who came here on the Mariel boatlift, who
regularly visits Cuba.
malanga
>
> How do they screen them and see if they "pass muster"?
When they apply for the visa, Mike.
Denise Oliver-Velez
<sal...@nospampicadillo.com> wrote:
>Denise Oliver-Velez wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 13:54:50 -0500, Santa Salsera
>> <sal...@nospampicadillo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Excellent review. What films are you waiting for? This could be an interesting
>> >topic for discussion.
>> >
>> >Back to "Chad Watch 2000"...
>> >
>> >-Fab
>>
>> Well now that I'm no longer watching chads and am waiting for the
>> court to exhale......
>>
>> Movies I would like to see:
>>
>> The REAL Billie Holiday Story (not Lady Sings the Blues with La Ross)
>
>Amen to that. Maybe Natalie Cole could play her with some empathy instead of
>melodrama. Giancarlo Esposito can take the Billy Dee Williams role. But then he can
>take any role, as far as I'm concerned.
Good idea...especially since La Natalie has gone through her own drug
crisis, but she survived. And thumbs up on the Giancarlo casting
*wink*
>
>> A "Saturday Night Fever" that shows Puerto Ricans inventing and
>> dancing the Latin hustle - based in el Barrio (East Harlem) not
>> Brooklyn
>
>You mean it wasn't Italians? *grin*
You'd be surprised how many folks think John Revolta could really
dance...
>
>> A salsa based musical with music not by Paul Simon
>> (sets and locations would re-create the Palladium, the Corso, and
>> other latin music nite clubs)
>
>I'm missing the reference, but still say amen.
>
Paul Simon did the music for a recent flop on B'way - the Capeman
thing
>> A Big Band Story(latin band) - take your pick - not Glenn Miller (El
>> Gran Combo might be a choice)
>
>I'd go see it.
>
>> Want tragedy (try La Lupe for a hot female protagonist ) and don't
>> cast Madonna or Christina whatever her last name is) to play La Lupe
>
>Or Jennifer Lopez?
LOL noooooooooooooooooooooo
>
>> For action adventure, a film set on a Brazilian plantation with
>> capoeistas as the martial arts heroes) music by Gilberto Gil, Milton
>> Nascimento etc. or a film set in slave times in Cuba with drumming
>> (including cajones) and the formation of cabildos
>
>Oh now, slow down there Denise, you know we can't sell mainstream images of
>rebellious Negroes...except, *maybe*, on a plantation, but even that may hit too
>close to home for some folks.
*Sigh* Oh well, I can dream.
>
>> The Maroon Wars (show runaways in Jamaica beating the British)
>
>Speaking of which, has there been a decent film about Bob Marley? That would be a
>good one, right there. Maybe Lenny Kravitz could play him? His mom was an actress,
>right...
I think there was a documentary about Marley...that I saw some time
ago..but a big screen film about Marley would pack em in
Good addition to the wish list Fab
>
>> The Everglades Wars (show Seminoles and runaway slaves beating the
>> Americans)
>
>...with their own ballot boxes? *grin*
roflmao
>
>> For comedy (black humor) any vehicle starring Pedro Pietri playing
>> himself
>
>Not familiar with this guy.
Pedro Pietri was one of the first Neuyorican poets, and was/is a
stand-up comedian as well. He was the poet laureate of the Young
Lords, and his poem "Puerto Rican Obituary" is included in the Young
Lords book "Pa'lante". Pedro used to walk on stage with a brief case
with "Rent-A-Coffin Agency" written on the side - said Boriquas were
so poor they had to rent coffins stead of buying them
His poetry is available on records - don't know if they are on CD
>
>> A film called "Tambor" - music by Totico, Aguabella etc (not
>> Santana) - all musicians included should have Ocha or Anya,
>> (plot) the hero or heroine an aspiring young musician who gets
>> initiated into the religion - take your pick - lots of folk meet this
>> criteria including Tito Puente
>
>Just the other day I saw some top-rated crime drama that used Santeria as colorful
>backdrop--naturally the Santeria store owner/priest, named "Machete" (a word the
>detectives mysteriously had some trouble making out), turned out to be the drug
>kingpin/villain/murderer. I was kind of surprised to see this kind of
>representation of Afro-Caribbean religions (a la Angel Heart) still circulating
>like coin of the realm.
It's sad that the people they hire to write these scripts do minimal
research and end up with a mish-mosh of Satanism, "voodoo" (not
Vodoun) and a bunch of other mumbo-jumbo thrown together....reminds
me of those Tarzan flics with the cannibals and the pots all waiting
to boil some lily-white morsel for dinner that were standard TV fare
when I was growing up. A friend of my dads was cast as "a jungle
chieftain" in a lot of those episodes - he used to tell hysterically
funny stories about how they'd round up some "Negroes" in Watts as
extras and paint them darker cause they didn't look "savage" enough.
Dialogue "Bwana , Bwana ...simba simba...ooga booga"...with Haitian
drummers in the background. Darkest Africa meets Hollywood and Vine.
(snip)
>> Perhaps a re-make of West Side Story with Puerto Ricans cast as the
>> Puerto Ricans (I have no objections to Lennies music) but some
>> additions to the soundtrack could be made with latin music
>
>Yeah, I have heard that Lenny himself was so disgusted with the sanitized way the
>movie depicted social reality that he completely disowned it.
That's interesting - I hadn't heard that - kudos to Lenny.
>
>> well Fab, there's my first stab at a wish list.....
>
>And what a stab it is...sorry it took me so long to respond, I was just cogitatin'
>and procrastinatin'. Thanks for sharing your brainchildren with us.
>
>-Fab
Thanks for adding on to it. And keep on cogitatin' (grin)
Denise
malanga
<tum...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:pkCW5.34673$sz3.6...@news1.telusplanet.net...
> i think it's high time we had the charles mingus story (either version),
> preferably without bruce willis.
Check out Charles Mingus: Triumph of the Underdog.... a documentary on the
man's life.
tum...@telus.net
tum...@telus.net
"malanga" <mal...@xxx.yyy> wrote in message
> > preferably without bruce willis.
>
> man's life.
Thanks, malanga - just in time for Christmas. I've heard that Gene Santoro's
Mingus bio "Myself When I am Real" is great. Have you read it, by chance?
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
in The 13th Warrior instead of having someone from the Middle-East playing
the part?
--
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
My Home Page http://dmreed.com features my musical autobiography with audio
recordings, photos of groups I have worked with from the late 50s to the
present, rare 1960s recordings by pianist Carlos Federico, 1970s photos of
Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo,and selected LP and CD recordings from my
Latin music collection of CDs, LPs, tapes, books, and instructional
materials. Information about the US-International Keyboard (WINDOWS 95/98)
and a large printable keyboard image is also included.
04/18/00 NEW PAGE: RumbaRama (http://dmreed.com/rumbarama.htm) which
contains audio links to rumba recordings on my site and to other links and
information.
"César Norberto Díaz" <Gbau...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a217d82...@news-server.si.rr.com...
> On Sun, 19 Nov 2000 15:52:10 -0500, Denise Oliver-Velez
> <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote in part:
>
>
> >Thought I'd disagree with the above review.
> >
> >Had two weekend house guests - both musicians - and they stayed up to
> >watch the film with my husband and me.
> >
> >Husband fell asleep after the first 20 minutes.
malanga
<tum...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:oDEW5.34748$sz3.6...@news1.telusplanet.net...
>
>
> Thanks, malanga - just in time for Christmas. I've heard that Gene
Santoro's
> Mingus bio "Myself When I am Real" is great. Have you read it, by chance?
>
Yes... it is very good... really conveys to the reader the complexity (and
some would say, the impossibleness, or as I like to put it, the
contrabajoness) of Mingus.
It is much, much better, imo, than both Brian Priestly's biography of Mingus
and Mingus' autobiography.
Do read it.
kaysee
population in the US to see Cubans whenever I travel. My papa says when the Cubans
began fleeing Cuba it was the white or very light-skinned ones who did so first,
mainly because they were more likely to have the financial reserves and the contacts
to get out. So my impression was formed by these Cubans who would have gone before
Mariel and who would have had time to work their way up in the local economic system.
I agree the media has played a large part in maintaining this perception, however.
And look at the Cuban singers who live in Miami, like Rey Ruiz (has he moved?) Gloria
Estefan, and Willie Chirino. Certainly one's perceptions would not be challenged.
In fact, I'd be curious to have someone name some current Cuban-American musicians of
renown (i. e. front line artists) who are mulatto or black in appearance. Does Celia
live in Miami?
kaysee
Maybe they didn't see the movie? <g>
kaysee
Dennis M. Reed "Califa" wrote in message
<2wGW5.34128$I5.5...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com>...
Santa Salsera
an international music career and still maintain ties to Cuba. So I can think of
front-line Cuban musicians who are black, but they live in Europe (Jesus Alemany is one
example). I think it may be possible that Cubans arriving in the U.S. become socially
segregated according to American racial patterns once they get here, and that this may
persist in terms the predominantly white "Cuban-American" scene we are talking about.
That New York Times extensive series on race over the summer had an example of best
friends in Cuba, one black and one white, who entered different communities when they
came here. One of them now identifies himself primarily as "Black", the other primarily
as "Cuban-American" (with the attendant Elian-activist implications). The Afro-Cuban had
a totally different take on internal American race relations and also on Cuban-American
political relations.
-Fabulana
Denise Oliver-Velez
<sal...@nospampicadillo.com> wrote:
>I get the feeling that quite a few Cubans leaving now go to Europe, where they can pursue
>an international music career and still maintain ties to Cuba. So I can think of
>front-line Cuban musicians who are black, but they live in Europe (Jesus Alemany is one
>example). I think it may be possible that Cubans arriving in the U.S. become socially
>segregated according to American racial patterns once they get here, and that this may
>persist in terms the predominantly white "Cuban-American" scene we are talking about.
>That New York Times extensive series on race over the summer had an example of best
>friends in Cuba, one black and one white, who entered different communities when they
>came here. One of them now identifies himself primarily as "Black", the other primarily
>as "Cuban-American" (with the attendant Elian-activist implications). The Afro-Cuban had
>a totally different take on internal American race relations and also on Cuban-American
>political relations.
>
>-Fabulana
>
Good point. I was thinking back to many of the Black Cubans I knew as
child, many of whom were musicians , and quite a few were jazz
musicians. They all came here pre-Castro, and did not join the White
community at all. They moved into either Black or Puerto Rican
neighborhoods, and all of them identified themselves as "Negro".
Very different from the wave that hit our shores fleeing Castro.
Denise
malanga
> > >
> Good point. I was thinking back to many of the Black Cubans I knew as
> child, many of whom were musicians , and quite a few were jazz
> musicians. They all came here pre-Castro, and did not join the White
> community at all. They moved into either Black or Puerto Rican
> neighborhoods, and all of them identified themselves as "Negro".
Hmmm.... interesting.... let's see... this was "pre-Castro".... ergo...
pre-1959 America....
Say... I wonder.... do you think that the realities of pre-Civil Rights
America might have had to do *anything* with where/how they lived and what
*society* considered them to be?
> Very different from the wave that hit our shores fleeing Castro.
Ah... let's see... and which "wave" might that be... 1960s? 1970s? 1980s?
1990s?
(I guess I just abhor simplifications... )
George Rivera
--
Musically,
George Rivera
gri...@surfree.com
"Cuando Puerto Rico comprenda el valor de su folklore, luchará con mucha
fuerza para defender su honor."
- Don Rafael Cepeda
<tum...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:pkCW5.34673$sz3.6...@news1.telusplanet.net...
Santa Salsera
> "Denise Oliver-Velez" <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
> news:fjeq2t8jrkp0lqn1q...@4ax.com...
> > > >
> > Good point. I was thinking back to many of the Black Cubans I knew as
> > child, many of whom were musicians , and quite a few were jazz
> > musicians. They all came here pre-Castro, and did not join the White
> > community at all. They moved into either Black or Puerto Rican
> > neighborhoods, and all of them identified themselves as "Negro".
>
> Hmmm.... interesting.... let's see... this was "pre-Castro".... ergo...
> pre-1959 America....
That's what the lady said. You tone-deaf or something?
> Say... I wonder.... do you think that the realities of pre-Civil Rights
> America might have had to do *anything* with where/how they lived and what
> *society* considered them to be?
You didn't read the New York Times series on Race in America, I take it. The
article I cited is about life in the year 2000 and it is even online. She
(Denise), and I, were talking about self-identifications. Maybe it's not just
the New York Times you don't read.
> > Very different from the wave that hit our shores fleeing Castro.
>
> Ah... let's see... and which "wave" might that be... 1960s? 1970s? 1980s?
> 1990s?
>
> (I guess I just abhor simplifications... )
I don't guess; I know that I am tired of people who can't draw a simple
straight line between their point and their conclusion. Cutesy sarcastic
detours are a sure sign of a wandering mind.
-Fabulana
malanga
"Santa Salsera" <sal...@nospampicadillo.com> wrote in message
news:3A2DF216...@nospampicadillo.com...
> malanga wrote:
>
> > "Denise Oliver-Velez" <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
> > news:fjeq2t8jrkp0lqn1q...@4ax.com...
> > > > >
> > > Good point. I was thinking back to many of the Black Cubans I knew as
> > > child, many of whom were musicians , and quite a few were jazz
> > > musicians. They all came here pre-Castro, and did not join the White
> > > community at all. They moved into either Black or Puerto Rican
> > > neighborhoods, and all of them identified themselves as "Negro".
> >
> > Hmmm.... interesting.... let's see... this was "pre-Castro".... ergo...
> > pre-1959 America....
>
> That's what the lady said. You tone-deaf or something?
>
> > Say... I wonder.... do you think that the realities of pre-Civil Rights
> > America might have had to do *anything* with where/how they lived and
what
> > *society* considered them to be?
>
> You didn't read the New York Times series on Race in America, I take it.
The
> article I cited is about life in the year 2000 and it is even online. She
> (Denise), and I, were talking about self-identifications. Maybe it's not
just
> the New York Times you don't read.
>
Excuse me, but I do believe that you don't seem to comprehend a couple of
basic points:
a) The "choice" which Ms. Velez seems to be suggesting was made by
Afro-Cubans who emigrated before the Civil Rights era, was not a "choice"
that they had at all. The "only" choice that any immigrant of colour had in
those segregated times was.... well, we'll leave it for someone with your
obviously great intelligence to figure out.
b) The series race in America, or at least the part which lent itself to the
issue of Afro-Cubans, dealt with and used as an example almost exclusively
mostly the situation which one set of recently arrived individuals found
themselves in. I would suggest to you that it was not by any means an
exhausting study of the subject. I'm sure that somewhere in your life a Duke
you've been faced with warnings about making sweeping and simplified
conclusions based on limited information. I'd suggest that you might wish to
ponder, what if anything, you might have learned from these warnings. If
however, this is beyond your capability, I'll be happy to regale you with my
own individual tales of Afro-Cubans families from the earlier waves who
remained part of the general exile community, lived in the same apartment
complexes and neighborhoods, went to the same public and *private* Catholic
schools, etc. etc. etc. ... then I'll wait and see if you draw the same sort
of simplified and sweeping conclusions from these that you draw about the
case which appeared in the NYT (if only to see if you are at least
consistent).
> > > Very different from the wave that hit our shores fleeing Castro.
> >
> > Ah... let's see... and which "wave" might that be... 1960s? 1970s?
1980s?
> > 1990s?
> >
> > (I guess I just abhor simplifications... )
>
> I don't guess; I know that I am tired of people who can't draw a simple
> straight line between their point and their conclusion. Cutesy sarcastic
> detours are a sure sign of a wandering mind.
>
See my comment about Duke above (and maybe ponder about what a tendency to
drawing "straight lines" to reach conclusions regarding a most complex issue
suggests about one's thought processess)... and maybe, just maybe, you might
wish to do some rawther basic research about the racial makeup of each
different wave of Cuban exiles and as to where those among these exiles who
were of colour, specially those who arrived here in a period when the
"choice" was more of a choice.
On the other hand, if this is beyond your abilities, you might simply wish
to tour the areas of Miami where more recent arrivals leave and see if you
find only white Cubans.
Cheers!
Nina
"malanga" <mal...@xxx.yyy> wrote:
>
> "Santa Salsera" <sal...@nospampicadillo.com> wrote in message
> news:3A2DF216...@nospampicadillo.com...
> > malanga wrote:
> >
> > > "Denise Oliver-Velez" <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
> > > news:fjeq2t8jrkp0lqn1q...@4ax.com...
> > > > > >
> > > > Good point. I was thinking back to many of the Black Cubans I
knew as
> > > > child, many of whom were musicians , and quite a few were jazz
> > > > musicians. They all came here pre-Castro, and did not join the
White
> > > > community at all. They moved into either Black or Puerto Rican
> > > > neighborhoods, and all of them identified themselves as "Negro".
I know Vietnamese, Samoans, Hawaiian, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans ,
Cubans,and Panamanians who all identify as "African American" or
black.After a while it is accepted and no one even questions them.
> a) The "choice" which Ms. Velez seems to be suggesting was made by
> Afro-Cubans who emigrated before the Civil Rights era, was not
a "choice"
> that they had at all. The "only" choice that any immigrant of colour
had in
> those segregated times was.... well, we'll leave it for someone with
your
> obviously great intelligence to figure out.
actually, in the south it was quite common for african americans to
claim to be of cuban or puerto rican heritage. sure,they were still not
white, but at least this way the mantle of foreigness allowed them the
privelege of trying on clothing in stores and halfway decent treatment
that wasnt allowed the ordinary- run of- the- mill- home -grown-
alabama n1gger.
(there were also Samoan, Indian (asian),Italian and assorted other
identities available for the choosing depending upon degree and type of
racial mixture)
But u are right also, there are places here where even any nonwhite
person is considered black. As recently as 1988 in my highschool if you
werent white you WERE black. Thats all there was to it, you grew up
black and you married black also. The alternative was to live in a
nomans land a step above being black and below being white,but never
belonging. To some people it was worth identifying as black in order to
belong and more importantly, to have kids and grandkids that have a
community and a place within it.
Point? Being segregated wasnt always something forced upon immigrants.
Some managed to slip into white society,some didnt think black was
such a bad thing and better to go ahead and be black and accept the
perks,than forever fight a losing battle to be on par w/white people.
Some people who came from places with active vibrant cultures actually
WANTED to consort with the negroes, because the standard nonethnic
American no-culture culture was so unappealing.(I do i realize many
people cannot imagine that choosing to be black is anything but a
choice made under duress.)
n
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Denise Oliver-Velez
>actually, in the south it was quite common for african americans to
>claim to be of cuban or puerto rican heritage. sure,they were still not
>white, but at least this way the mantle of foreigness allowed them the
>privelege of trying on clothing in stores and halfway decent treatment
>that wasnt allowed the ordinary- run of- the- mill- home -grown-
>alabama n1gger.
(Grin )- not just in the south. When my dad became the first "Negro"
to integrate all white casting on B'way (Cyrano d'Bergerac) (meaning
- not just playing a "darkie" but actually having a regular part in a
non-Negro production), he was encouraged by his friend Jose Ferrer to
change his name from Oliver to "Olivera" so that he could get more
opportunities for work. Since daddy was blue-eyed and of very fair
complexion, it was tempting. But since he was a race-man, and very
political - he stuck to his guns, and heritage. It left him little
choice in casting opportunities...he was usually the "tragic mulatto",
the part he played in the B'way production of Strange Fruit.
Thankfully my mom convinced him to go back to school and get some
additional degrees, so that he could teach (and we could stop starving
- since B'way roles were few and far between and we ate a lot of Spam
in the between times)
>
>(there were also Samoan, Indian (asian),Italian and assorted other
>identities available for the choosing depending upon degree and type of
>racial mixture)
And there were whites married to blacks illegally, who then became
"black" and were accepted as such. My grandmother was one.
>
>But u are right also, there are places here where even any nonwhite
>person is considered black. As recently as 1988 in my highschool if you
>werent white you WERE black. Thats all there was to it, you grew up
>black and you married black also. The alternative was to live in a
>nomans land a step above being black and below being white,but never
>belonging. To some people it was worth identifying as black in order to
>belong and more importantly, to have kids and grandkids that have a
>community and a place within it.
>
>Point? Being segregated wasnt always something forced upon immigrants.
>Some managed to slip into white society,some didnt think black was
>such a bad thing and better to go ahead and be black and accept the
>perks,than forever fight a losing battle to be on par w/white people.
>Some people who came from places with active vibrant cultures actually
>WANTED to consort with the negroes, because the standard nonethnic
>American no-culture culture was so unappealing.(I do i realize many
>people cannot imagine that choosing to be black is anything but a
>choice made under duress.)
>
True. There was a whole group of Filipinos who settled in
Philadelphia in the 1920's and 30's who became part of "Negro Society"
and married into some of the old "Families of Colour". They could
have stayed part of the no-mans land category, but chose to become
"Negro", and then intermarried with some of the guys and gals my mom
grew up with. I wonder if this is documented anywhere...must check.
Thanks Nina for an interesting post.
Denise
Denise Oliver-Velez
>
>"Denise Oliver-Velez" <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
>news:fjeq2t8jrkp0lqn1q...@4ax.com...
>> > >
>> Good point. I was thinking back to many of the Black Cubans I knew as
>> child, many of whom were musicians , and quite a few were jazz
>> musicians. They all came here pre-Castro, and did not join the White
>> community at all. They moved into either Black or Puerto Rican
>> neighborhoods, and all of them identified themselves as "Negro".
>
>
>Hmmm.... interesting.... let's see... this was "pre-Castro".... ergo...
>pre-1959 America....
>
>Say... I wonder.... do you think that the realities of pre-Civil Rights
>America might have had to do *anything* with where/how they lived and what
>*society* considered them to be?
>
The people I was referring to because of their skin color (which was
dark brown) couldn't have "passed" and melded in or been accepted like
Ricky Ricardo etc....but they were more interested in the vibrant jazz
scene which for them was the jazz of the black bands - like Basies,
Ellingtons...they evinced little interest in segregating themselves,
or in being "Hispanic". They just wanted to play jazz with other
black folks.
The realities of pre-Civil Rights America (and post-Civil Rights for
that matter) had everything to do with where people lived, worked, who
they married, what their status was. But I wasn't really talkin' bout
what "society" considered them to be - was more interested in their
own self-identification.
>> Very different from the wave that hit our shores fleeing Castro.
>
>Ah... let's see... and which "wave" might that be... 1960s? 1970s? 1980s?
>1990s?
Sorry I wan't more explicit. Wasn't tryin' to simplify - just dashed
off a post. *Sigh* - was referring to the "first wave" which tended
to be Cubans from the upper echelons (folks with money) who were
predominantly "white" by Cuban standards.
>
>(I guess I just abhor simplifications... )
>
:)
Denise
Chapulina
>
> > For action adventure, a film set on a Brazilian plantation with
> > capoeistas as the martial arts heroes) music by Gilberto Gil, Milton
> > Nascimento etc. or a film set in slave times in Cuba with drumming
> > (including cajones) and the formation of cabildos
Perhaps you're already familiar with it, but there's a Brazilian film called
Quilombo with music by Gilberto Gil that was made in the 70's. It's a bit
cheesy but based on the true story of a community of runaway slaves in
Brasil during the 1600's called Palmares. They actually manged to hold out
against the Portuguese army for quite sometime.
The hero of Palmares, Zumbi, is still often referred to in Brazilian music.
Here's a link with more info:
http://us.imdb.com/Title?Quilombo+
I agree with you, so much money is wasted on crap movies when there are so
many stories in the world to be told...
Chapulina
kaysee
that is) could have made themselves into a "cuban-american enclave" rather than
integrating with blacks and Puerto Ricans. I suppose this would have caused the
development of salsa to be different. But certainly the post-Castro immigrants would
have been coming for different reasons and in greater numbers, perhaps influencing
the way they viewed themselves and therefore the way they integrated themselves into
the society.
The one thing I will say about my interactions with Cubans I have met is that they
have the "island attitude", which is that discrimination against others is based on
the $$$$$ and not on the colour. This is something that, it seems, a lot of the more
"traditional" blacks (and whites) in the Florida area had difficulty understanding
about Cubans and other Caribbean peoples (Jamaicans and Haitians, for example).
And malanga, are you suggesting that most of the people who left Cuba after Castro
were NOT musicians? Is that why there doesn't seem to be a musical presence?
kaysee
malanga wrote in message <90of35$2to$1...@slate.INS.CWRU.Edu>...
>
>"Denise Oliver-Velez" <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
>news:mr6v2tcn85hbi1vng...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:21:45 -0500, "malanga" <mal...@xxx.yyy> wrote:
>>
>
>> The people I was referring to because of their skin color (which was
>> dark brown) couldn't have "passed" and melded in or been accepted like
>> Ricky Ricardo etc....but they were more interested in the vibrant jazz
>> scene which for them was the jazz of the black bands - like Basies,
>> Ellingtons...they evinced little interest in segregating themselves,
>> or in being "Hispanic". They just wanted to play jazz with other
>> black folks.
>>
>
>My point, again, is that those who "couldn't have "passed"" didn't really
>have a choice to make.
>
>I would suggest that any person of color, irrespective of nationality,
>didn't have much of a choice beyond that which society assigned them because
>of their skin tone.
>
>
>>
>> Sorry I wan't more explicit. Wasn't tryin' to simplify - just dashed
>> off a post. *Sigh* - was referring to the "first wave" which tended
>> to be Cubans from the upper echelons (folks with money) who were
>> predominantly "white" by Cuban standards.
>>
>
>Yes they were.... ~95% white (or at least "passable" as whites... provided
>granma stayed outasight ;-)).
>
>My recollection of where this wave settled, however, is in sharp contrast
>with the scenario presented in the NYT article, and commonly held attitudes.
>Cubans exiles of color tended to remain part of the overall Cuban
>community... in part because of, as you point out, economically (and to a
>greater degree than most folks can imagine, socially/politically) they
>tended to also be part of the middle and upper classes that were part of the
>first wave. Culturally, of course, your average (i.e. not a "jazz musician")
>afro-cuban had little, if anything, in common with the afro-american
>community.
>
>Another interesting factor, imo,... the rental market in what became Little
>Havana was so depressed at the time that some landlords (at least those who
>didn't have "No dogs or Cubans" as part of their For Rent signs), having
>already "relaxed" their attitudes by accepting "spics" in their rentals took
>a "well what the heck" attitude when confronted with a non-melanin
>challenged prospect, (or at least much more of a "what the heck" attitude
>than that which a landlord in say, a working-class white section of Queens
>in the '50s would have taken).... specially one which his other "lighter"
>renters (who, gasp, seemed to be paying the rent on time and be taking care
>of the place) vouched for.
>
>The middle waves of afro-cubans had, imo, a much tougher time though.... for
>reasons which i don't have time to get into.
>
>
>
>
malanga
> I can see where Denise is coming from. I suppose the initial Cubans
(pre-Castro,
> that is) could have made themselves into a "cuban-american enclave" rather
than
> integrating with blacks and Puerto Ricans.
I beleive the initial Cubans made themselves into an enclave because, like
every other immigrant groups, it was natural for them to do so and they had
the mass to do it. I would suggest that there was no reason for them to
integrate with blacks, other latins (which, btw, were hard to find in the
Miami of the early '60s), Jews on the beach, etc. etc.
>I suppose this would have caused the
> development of salsa to be different. But certainly the post-Castro
immigrants would
> have been coming for different reasons and in greater numbers, perhaps
influencing
> the way they viewed themselves and therefore the way they integrated
themselves into
> the society.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean... just what is your definition of
"salsa"?
> The one thing I will say about my interactions with Cubans I have met is
that they
> have the "island attitude", which is that discrimination against others is
based on
> the $$$$$ and not on the colour.
That's part of it....one's dress, manners, diction, etc. (which are not
necessarily directly related to $$$$) do play a major role. Another thing
which makes Cuban racial attitudes in the US somewhat unique is how
nationality seems to modulate it. I've found that those who have racist
attitudes towards afro-american seem to be less race concious when dealing
with afro-cubans...i.e. the shared/common "cubanidad" seems to soothe,
trump, eliminate racist tendencies. Their exposure to the negative
stereotypes and imagery regarding afro-americans which existed/exist in the
US are, I think,also a factor in this.
{snip}
> And malanga, are you suggesting that most of the people who left Cuba
after Castro
> were NOT musicians?
Well... yes... musicians are not a majority of any population, are they?
>Is that why there doesn't seem to be a musical presence?
I'm not sure what you mean.... I'd say the musical "presence" of
Cuban-Americans in the US is probably the same as that of most other ethnic
groups. It's less than that which exists in Cuba... but, well, remember we
don't have 5 year plans to turn out musicians and make work gigs to support
them in the US.. its that devil market that drives it (and that of the
Irish, Colombians, Mexicans, etc. etc.).
Yambu
<deol...@pipeline.com> wrote:
>..... There was a whole group of Filipinos who settled in
>Philadelphia in the 1920's and 30's who became part of "Negro Society"
>and married into some of the old "Families of Colour". They could
>have stayed part of the no-mans land category, but chose to become
>"Negro".....
>
Same for some 19th Century Irish in the big Eastern cities.
-Mike Doran
malanga
zeno
Nina wrote:
>
> actually, in the south it was quite common for african americans to
> claim to be of cuban or puerto rican heritage. sure,they were still not
> white, but at least this way the mantle of foreigness allowed them the
> privelege of trying on clothing in stores and halfway decent treatment
> that wasnt allowed the ordinary- run of- the- mill- home -grown-
> alabama n1gger.
>
The bebop professor-hipster and self professed "creator of the BeBop
language" Babs Gonzales (an African American) says as much and more in his
autobiographical writings ("I, paid my dues-good Times.. no Bread--a story
of Jazz")
Denise Oliver-Velez
>
>The bebop professor-hipster and self professed "creator of the BeBop
>language" Babs Gonzales (an African American) says as much and more in his
>autobiographical writings ("I, paid my dues-good Times.. no Bread--a story
>of Jazz")
>
Nice to see a reference to Babs - probably the only comedian to do
rich material on jazz musicians...I still crack up when I remember his
names for various be-boppers - "Smart Snakely" - Art Blakey
"Melodious Thunk" - Thelonious Monk...if I remember correctly Miles
was "Reynard the Fox"
Denise
Denise Oliver-Velez
>
>"Denise Oliver-Velez" <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
>news:mr6v2tcn85hbi1vng...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:21:45 -0500, "malanga" <mal...@xxx.yyy> wrote:
>> Sorry I wan't more explicit. Wasn't tryin' to simplify - just dashed
>> off a post. *Sigh* - was referring to the "first wave" which tended
>> to be Cubans from the upper echelons (folks with money) who were
>> predominantly "white" by Cuban standards.
>>
>
>Yes they were.... ~95% white (or at least "passable" as whites... provided
>granma stayed outasight ;-)).
>
(grin) Y tu abuela donde esta?
>
>Another interesting factor, imo,... the rental market in what became Little
>Havana was so depressed at the time that some landlords (at least those who
>didn't have "No dogs or Cubans" as part of their For Rent signs), having
>already "relaxed" their attitudes by accepting "spics" in their rentals took
>a "well what the heck" attitude when confronted with a non-melanin
>challenged prospect, (or at least much more of a "what the heck" attitude
>than that which a landlord in say, a working-class white section of Queens
>in the '50s would have taken).... specially one which his other "lighter"
>renters (who, gasp, seemed to be paying the rent on time and be taking care
>of the place) vouched for.
>
>The middle waves of afro-cubans had, imo, a much tougher time though.... for
>reasons which i don't have time to get into.
>
I know nothing much of little Havana, except my grandmother de santo
lives there. The Cuban communities I am more familiar with are in
New Jesey - around Union City, and there used to be one in Washington
Heights - an area that is now almost completely Dominican.
The earlier arrivals - black Cubans- that my family knew settled in
Harlem - East, West and Central and some bought homes in St.Albans and
Hollis, Queens - where Count Basie, Roy Haynes, Coltrane, Dakota
Staton, Milt Jackson, Eric Dolphy and other jazz musicians had homes.
Denise
Nina
> >>
> >> Sorry I wan't more explicit. Wasn't tryin' to simplify - just
dashed
> >> off a post. *Sigh* - was referring to the "first wave" which
tended
> >> to be Cubans from the upper echelons (folks with money) who were
> >> predominantly "white" by Cuban standards.
> >>
> >
> >Yes they were.... ~95% white (or at least "passable" as whites...
provided
> >granma stayed outasight ;-)).
I know a lot of women who chose to marry black men so the kids wouldnt
be able to pass. The possibility of losing the kids due to the one-drop
rule is something that we discuss quite openly. Cousins and grandmas
all the way from New Orleans to Venezuela and back up to Miami, have a
strange way of disappearing. :)
I expect that we will never see my stepbrothers wives or children, and
i also dont expect that when my 2 quasistepsons marry that their father
will see their kids.
I was just commenting on this, because it seems that the focus is
always on the passing ones, and never the damage it does to the
families leftbehind. I cant imagine that ina free Cuba the rejected and
denied will be very welcoming of those who left.
Anyway....
:)
Yambu
<deol...@pipeline.com> wrote:
>Nice to see a reference to Babs - probably the only comedian to do
>rich material on jazz musicians...I still crack up when I remember his
>names for various be-boppers - "Smart Snakely" - Art Blakey
>"Melodious Thunk" - Thelonious Monk...if I remember correctly Miles
>was "Reynard the Fox"
>
Speaking of Christmas songs, didn't he do something called "Be-Bop
Santa Claus"? I know he did "Oop-Pop-A-Da" with his group, "Three Bips
and a Bop".
-Mike Doran
malanga
"Nina" <nina...@worldspy.net> wrote in message
news:90qtn4$iqs$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> I was just commenting on this, because it seems that the focus is
> always on the passing ones, and never the damage it does to the
> families leftbehind. I cant imagine that ina free Cuba the rejected and
> denied will be very welcoming of those who left.
>
Well... I'm not sure I agree with you if what you mean is that somehow folks
within a family unit were left behind or rejected from coming to the US
because of race.... fact is, they weren't. The selectivity of the early
diaspora was primarily due to economics and politics. Within a family,
well... once a family decided to leave, I don't think they suddenly decided
that granma wasn't white enough and left her behind.
Family members that stayed behind did so for a host of other reasons...
making the decision to pack up and leave one's homeland is usually quite a
difficult and complex process.
As to those that were "left behind" being resentful of those who left...
well, imo and experience, I'd say not. In fact, it might be just the
opposite, since, given that the ~$800M a year or so that folks on the island
receive from their exile relatives is what literally keeps them alive (as
the joke goes... what one has to have in Cuba to survive is FE (literally...
faith) but actually Familia en el Exilio..... and...well...since there are
other more local "targets" which are responsible for their condition....
Nina
"malanga" <pjd...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> "Nina" <nina...@worldspy.net> wrote in message
> news:90qtn4$iqs$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> >
> > I was just commenting on this, because it seems that the focus is
> > always on the passing ones, and never the damage it does to the
> > families leftbehind. I cant imagine that ina free Cuba the rejected
and
> > denied will be very welcoming of those who left.
> >
>
> Well... I'm not sure I agree with you if what you mean is that
somehow folks
> within a family unit were left behind or rejected from coming to the
US
> because of race.... fact is, they weren't. The selectivity of the
early
> diaspora was primarily due to economics and politics. Within a family,
> well... once a family decided to leave, I don't think they suddenly
decided
> that granma wasn't white enough and left her behind.
No, that isnt what I meant. But, once here I do think that frequently
things change. Those who can assimilate frequently do. Once people
realize they can "be white" and make the decision to do so, there
really isnt any turning back.
>
> Family members that stayed behind did so for a host of other
reasons...
> making the decision to pack up and leave one's homeland is usually
quite a
> difficult and complex process.
Oh yes, definitely. I would never say that it is any easy decision for
anyone. For people who choose to "pass" it isnt an easy decision,but im
sure they feel that it is a neccessary evil.
>
> As to those that were "left behind" being resentful of those who
left...
> well, imo and experience, I'd say not. In fact, it might be just the
> opposite, since, given that the ~$800M a year or so that folks on the
island
> receive from their exile relatives is what literally keeps them alive
(as
> the joke goes... what one has to have in Cuba to survive is FE
(literally...
> faith) but actually Familia en el Exilio..... and...well...since
there are
> other more local "targets" which are responsible for their
condition....
As far as i know, the benificiaries of that money are still
predominatly white.
Also, I am not speaking of people who make the decision to leave cuba,
or puerto rico or panama,or whatever.That does not imply abandonment.
Im referring to those, who upon arriving here realize that if they
leave any trace of blackness behind they will have an easier life.
Im referring to people who wonder why Tito hasnt called in years,or why
they have never met the spouse of their child. The man who follows his
brother to the US after some years and doesnt find the welcome he was
expecting. There is a bitterness, a sense of division. Mothers who go
to the US to see a new grandchild and later report "He acted like he
was ashamed of me". Or people who lose friends who were like brothers
to them, because one isnt white enought to fit in, and instead of being
2 latinos they are suddenly a white man and a blakc man and living in
their respective worlds.
Back to music. Theres those people who willgo gaga screaming about a
Ricky Martin or a Jennifer Lopez or Elvic Crespo, but will stare
blankly at the mention of a Robert Roena or a Jose Alberto. Here in the
US many people will acknowledge the "contributions" of black culture to
American culture. But they stopshort of saying that American culture is
in part derived from black culture. Meanwhile, in other countries it is
pretty much accepted that American popular culture is black.
Ithink that the lack of support for black latino artists is a way of
presenting to the US population a non-threatening white Latin face.
I have a zillion merengue cds that on the cover feature 4 very cute
young latinos, usually all nonblack or maybe a barely black one,and
then theres the photo inside which features the grup smiling with the
actual man who writes produces and arranges the stuff, and he is black.
Would the US latinos give these same groups the same outright support
if the singers were all black? would they get the same press and same
push and hype that Victor and Frankie and Marc and Jennifer and Riky
get? I think that has a major effect on where the money goes, what gets
played, what music dies, what music thrives.
Well,its finals week and im too tired to be eloquent,so i will exit
now. Forgive me if i began to babble. :)
Nina
.
MS
"malanga" <mal...@xxx.yyy> wrote in message
news:90e84e$713$1...@eeyore.INS.CWRU.Edu...
>
> " MS" <m...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:t2l5qh6...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
>
> > How do they screen them and see if they "pass muster"?
>
> When they apply for the visa, Mike.
Are many visa applications rejected, due to not "passing muster"?
MS
> In fact, I'd be curious to have someone name some current Cuban-American
musicians of
> renown (i. e. front line artists) who are mulatto or black in appearance.
Does Celia
> live in Miami?
>
> kaysee
Well, you just mentioned the most famous, front line Cuban exile artist of
all--Celia Criz. So you named her yourself. No, she doesn't live in Miami
(New Jersey, I think), but what difference does that make?
How about Cachao? Guillermo and Bobi Céspedes of Conjunto Céspedes? Omar
Sosa? etc., etc.
MS
> denied will be very welcoming of those who left.
Nina,
I'm not sure how the above statement relates to the comments on race and
"passing" earlier in your post.
Many people who left Cuba regularly go back to visit Cuba, and are very
welcome. In fact, many of the Cubans in Cuba are supported financially by
relatives who left. That is the largest source of hard currency flowing into
Cuba.
MS
> Oh yes, definitely. I would never say that it is any easy decision for
> anyone. For people who choose to "pass" it isnt an easy decision,but im
> sure they feel that it is a neccessary evil.
I think this concept of "passing" is very North American. From what I've
seen, heard, and read, I think the concept of race and racism in
Spanish-speaking countries like Cuba, Dominican Republic, and Puerto Rico is
quite different. People are not classified in two groups, black or white.
Most people are considered mulatto. They don't have to choose or be
classified by others as "black" or " white". That is a very North American
concept, where one drop of African blood makes a person "black".
Not that there isn't racism in the Spanish-speaking Caribbean countries
also. It's just different. There does seem to be an attitude that lighter is
better, people wanting to marry lighter to lighten their family, etc. But
there isn't the clear demarcation of "black" and "white" that we have in the
U.S.
Many people we would consider "black" here, would never be considered
"black" in Cuba, but rather mulatto.
MS
"Denise Oliver-Velez" <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
> The earlier arrivals - black Cubans- that my family knew settled in
> Harlem - East, West and Central and some bought homes in St.Albans and
> Hollis, Queens - where Count Basie, Roy Haynes, Coltrane, Dakota
> Staton, Milt Jackson, Eric Dolphy and other jazz musicians had homes.
Interestingly enough, John Coltrane's daughter married a black Cuban (in
Cuba), and brought him here. They live in L.A..
MS
"Dennis M. Reed "Califa"" <dmr...@dmreed.com> wrote in message
news:2wGW5.34128$I5.5...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
> just wondering why no one here complains when Antonio Banderas plays an
Arab
> in The 13th Warrior instead of having someone from the Middle-East playing
> the part?
There are often complaints like that. I don't know about that particular
movie.
MS
> The earlier arrivals - black Cubans- that my family knew settled in
> Harlem - East, West and Central and some bought homes in St.Albans and
> Hollis, Queens - where Count Basie, Roy Haynes, Coltrane, Dakota
> Staton, Milt Jackson, Eric Dolphy and other jazz musicians had homes.
>
> Denise
I think the point Malanga made about that was that black people coming to
the states in the 50s, no matter where they came from, had no choice but to
live in "black neighborhoods". That wasn't their choice.
Nina
different. The may be able to live as a "white"person, but they soon
learn that to be white here means to be ALL white, and that means no
black sisters, cousins etc. There are places where one can maintain
white status AND have black family members. Just not here.
In PR it is said "we are all Puerto Rican" but I have no doubt that
anyone is unaware of who is black and who isnt. Just a week ago I read
a "You Know You Grew up Puerto Rican in the 70's" (or somthing like
that)list and an item was (translated) "you remember when the negros
were called Kunta Kinte and not Shaka Zulu".
If you ask about race they say "we dont think like that" but if you
walk down the street pointing and asking, most people will have no
problem pointing out black people.
The hypodescent bs just adds a new divisive dynamic to the whole
shebang.
Its funny because sometimes people from other countries dont understand
where the line is drawn here and once theylearn that very light black
people are black, they sometimes lump dark white people in that same
group.
" MS" <m...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> I think this concept of "passing" is very North American. From what
I've
> seen, heard, and read, I think the concept of race and racism in
> Spanish-speaking countries like Cuba, Dominican Republic, and Puerto
Rico is
> quite different. People are not classified in two groups, black or
white.
> Most people are considered mulatto. They don't have to choose or be
> classified by others as "black" or " white". That is a very North
American
> concept, where one drop of African blood makes a person "black".
>
> Not that there isn't racism in the Spanish-speaking Caribbean
countries
> also. It's just different. There does seem to be an attitude that
lighter is
> better, people wanting to marry lighter to lighten their family, etc.
But
> there isn't the clear demarcation of "black" and "white" that we have
in the
> U.S.
>
> Many people we would consider "black" here, would never be considered
> "black" in Cuba, but rather mulatto.
>
>
Denise Oliver-Velez
wrote:
>
>"Nina" <nina...@worldspy.net> wrote in message
>news:90rot8$b23$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
>> Oh yes, definitely. I would never say that it is any easy decision for
>> anyone. For people who choose to "pass" it isnt an easy decision,but im
>> sure they feel that it is a neccessary evil.
>
>I think this concept of "passing" is very North American. From what I've
>seen, heard, and read, I think the concept of race and racism in
>Spanish-speaking countries like Cuba, Dominican Republic, and Puerto Rico is
>quite different. People are not classified in two groups, black or white.
>Most people are considered mulatto. They don't have to choose or be
>classified by others as "black" or " white". That is a very North American
>concept, where one drop of African blood makes a person "black".
Though I agree in part with what you say here, it is a bit simplistic.
- the fact that the category mulatto ( as we would say "touched by the
tar-brush ", exists at all is quite telling indeed.
Mulattos were counted in the US Census up until the late 1800's.
Concepts of race, color, social strafication and caste are not simple
either here or in the Caribbean.
Let me quote something I wrote several years ago (long quote - so
those not interested ignore or kill file - grin)
***********
Studies of slavery both here, in the Caribbean and Brazil highlight
the development of a separate group of mulattos. Degler focuses on
the history of differing developments of slavery and race relations
between the U.S. and Brazil, counterpoising the rigid racial
segregation practiced here, in opposition to the "mulatto
escape-hatch" provided in Brazil. (Deglar, 1971) However he fails to
appreciate that we had our own mulatto escape hatch here as well.
Brazil's allowed for an escape into the greater (whiter) society,
whereas ours propelled the mulatto to the top of the black heap,
trapped in a world where one drop of black blood defines you as black
ad infinitum.
Marvin Harris coined the term hypodescent to describe the
"one drop rule", the racial classification of a person with perhaps
one black great-grand parent as black in the United States. That same
person in Brazil, or the Hispanic Caribbean, would be legally, and
perhaps socially white, regardless of color or class. (Harris, 1964)
In countries like Brazil, Cuba, Haiti and Puerto Rico, where many of
the poor are also black, the three-tiered color/class structure has
repressed any struggle based on race, and in fact many members of the
ruling and middle classes deny vociferously that there are any racial
problems, attributing stratification to class alone.
Historically, the only part of the United States that operated
under the three-tiered system was Louisiana, since it was colonized
and settled first by the French and Spanish. Louisiana developed the
first, and most wealthy colored aristocracy in the United States.
Because Louisiana was colonized by the French, a "tripartite legal
distinction emerged"; whites, African slaves, and free people of color
or gens de couleur libre. These free coloreds were the products of
sexual liaisons between white planters and slave women initially, but
generations of crossing sexual lines created not only mulattos
(half-white), but also quadroons (one fourth white), octoroons (one
eighth white), and mustees(one sixteenth white). Called "colored
creoles" to make a distinction between these mixed-race persons and
those white Frenchmen and women born in the colonies, the free
persons of color in Louisiana enjoyed an economic freedom and an
opportunity for education denied to other mixed-race slaves or free
Negroes in the rest of the South. (Dominguez, 1986)
E. Franklin Frazier lists the demographic ratio of mulatto to
black as 600,000 out of a total black population of 4.5 million in
1860. "They were the product of forcible rape, coercion due to power
relationships, or voluntary surrender on the part of black women."
Though he admits that mutual attraction was possible, he states that
"the prestige of the white race was often sufficient to secure
compliance on their part." (Frazier 1962:116)
Verena Martinez Alier makes a similar observation with respect
to the behavior of free colored women in Cuba during the slave period.
She cites a folk aphorism which points to their desire for whitening,
"no hay tamarindo dulce ni mulata senorita" (there is no sweet
tamarind fruit as there is no virgin mulatto woman.). She feels
however that the available literature is inadequate to judge the
extent of resistance to white men's sexual advances.(
Martinez-Alier,1989:xiv)
Martinez-Alier examines the role of the Catholic Church, and
the Spanish Inquisition in defining concepts of "purity of blood',
which originally applied to any admixtures with foreigners, Jews,and
non-Catholics but in the "Cuban context impurity of blood' came to
mean bad race, African origin and slave status. Slavery was regarded
as a stain that contaminated a slave's descendants, regardless of
their actual physical appearance." ( Martinez-Alier, 1989:16) Parish
priests kept records of white versus pardo (mulatto) genetic heritage,
and though there were laws and codes to prevent intermarriage, race
mixing did occur. "When it came to the racial classification of an
individual, the principle of hypodescent prevailed. It was always the
racially inferior parent, regardless of sex, that determined the group
membership of the offspring of a mixed union" ( Martinez-Alier1989:
17)
Since the contracting of a mixed marriage would result in
social downgrading, parents of marriageable offspring would often go
to court to prevent any such mis-alliances. "By and large these white
parents pursued racial endogamy. A marriage across the race barrier
was felt to degrade the white candidate's family for all time." (
Martinez-Alier,1989:19) However, since whitening would advance one
socially, many pardos pushed to form such alliances, and many parents
of women of color refused to allow them to marry darker. "The constant
endeavors on the part of the coloured population to advance socially
by whitening themselves through marriage, or rather through informal
affairs with lighter if not white people, conflicted with the
downgrading principle as well ( Martinez-Alier, 1989:18)"
One of the major reasons for the attempt at keeping accurate
records of births to maintain social purity, was the inability to use
phenotype to determine a persons race, after several generations of
race mixing had taken place. Particularly because many "pure
Spaniards" were dark in color. "Only too often was it difficult if
not impossible to detect any actual physical difference between a
person of Spanish and one of partial African origin " A Spanish
dictionary in 1836 defined Trigueno as "The person of slightly darker
color or similar to wheat (trigo), in the same way a person of
lighter color, milky with a pink hue is called white...In a racial
context the word white is used even if the person is trigueno, in
order to differentiate him from Negro or mulatto, although there are
some of the latter who are whiter than many of the white race"(
Martinez-Alier,1989:72)
Similar to the color stratification system used in Louisiana,
Cubans in the 19th century developed a classification system between
degrees of color: Pardo, white on one side, freeborn pardo, white on
one side, ex-slave pardo on both sides, freeborn pardo on both sides,
ex-slave chino, freeborn chino, ex-slave moreno criollo(born in Cuba),
freeborn moreno criollo, ex-slave moreno de nacion (born in Africa),
and three categories of slave: pardo slave, moreno criollo slave and
moreno de nacion slave ( Martinez-Alier,1989:98)
**********
Well that's a snip of a very long paper on color, class and social
stratification which I had on my hard drive -
if you want the whole thing e-mail me heh heh
Denise
MS
Interesting article. I'm not sure why you referred to what I wrote as
"simplistic", though. I was just pointing out what you went into more detail
about above, that concepts of race and racism are different in the Spanish
and Brazilian speaking former slave-holding colonies, than the English one.
It might have to do with differences in Catholicism and Protestantism, I
don't know.
There definitely is racism in the Latin former slave-holding countries
(including Cuba), it just has a different face than here.
I'll give an example. A mulatta I know in Cuba was talking about how some
people in her family have "good hair" and others have 'bad hair", and she
was happy to have the former. I asked her what she meant by "good hair" and
"bad hair", and it became clear that by the latter she was referring to the
kinky hair that many blacks have, and that "good hair" means more
European-appearing, straighter hair.
I pointed out that that was a racist conception, which she denied. It seemed
from how she talked, like that's pretty common vocabulary there. You
wouldn't likely hear such talk in USA 2000. (At least among people I'm
around.)
On the other hand, they never had anything like our Jim Crow period here,
the brutal racial segregation they had in the Southern US. Races always
mixed easier there. But racist attitudes certainly exist, of lighter and
more European features being "better".
Denise Oliver-Velez
wrote:
>Interesting article. I'm not sure why you referred to what I wrote as
>"simplistic", though. I was just pointing out what you went into more detail
>about above, that concepts of race and racism are different in the Spanish
>and Brazilian speaking former slave-holding colonies, than the English one.
>It might have to do with differences in Catholicism and Protestantism, I
>don't know.
>
Sorry to use simplistic - just meant more detail needed. The fact
that mulattos exist at all as a category indicates a system of
classifications based on race. I have real problems about the idea
that racism in the Caribbean is/was somehow less, or softer, or more
benign. I'm not saying that this is what you meant but it tends to be
inferred.
>There definitely is racism in the Latin former slave-holding countries
>(including Cuba), it just has a different face than here.
>
>I'll give an example. A mulatta I know in Cuba was talking about how some
>people in her family have "good hair" and others have 'bad hair", and she
>was happy to have the former. I asked her what she meant by "good hair" and
>"bad hair", and it became clear that by the latter she was referring to the
>kinky hair that many blacks have, and that "good hair" means more
>European-appearing, straighter hair.
>I pointed out that that was a racist conception, which she denied. It seemed
>from how she talked, like that's pretty common vocabulary there. You
>wouldn't likely hear such talk in USA 2000. (At least among people I'm
>around.)
>
Good hair and bad hair concepts are alive and well in the USA.
Do a search on "nappy" and "kinky" and you will come up with a host of
articles, books, and films dealing with the concepts of color
consciousness and phenotype in todays black community. They also
exist in the Jewish American community too. Ask any Dominican
hairdresser for a breakdown on the ethnicity of her clients
(Dominicans in NY are the best "hair straighteners" around)
>On the other hand, they never had anything like our Jim Crow period here,
>the brutal racial segregation they had in the Southern US. Races always
>mixed easier there. But racist attitudes certainly exist, of lighter and
>more European features being "better".
>
Jim Crow existed in the Caribbean as well - no signs, but check
membership to certain clubs, see who could stay in certain hotels and
who were the maids and porters. Interestingly enough Batista was
turned away from certain elite venues in Cuba because of his race.
Racial segregation was brutal in the US, no question. But if you
check the work of historians of slavery - the most brutal slavery
existed under both the Spaniards and the Portuguese, particularly the
Portuguese. - the sheer numbers of slaves who didn't live more than
four or five years would turn your stomach. You see, slaves were
easier to replace than feed - given the access to slave ports on the
African coasts and shipping supremacy . Slaves were a more expensive
commodity in the US - and like farm animals - they got fed, clothed
and housed - killing them was usually a last solution since
plantation owners/farmers couldn't afford to lose their investments.
"Mixing easier" is a loaded statement as well. The creation of large
number of mixed race persons by those in power speaks of rape and
coercion.
Few African-Americans from the US (for those folks of Afro descent in
the Caribbean and Latin Americans are African-Americans as well)
are not "mixed-race". But the creation of a buffer class of mulattos
wasn't necessary in the US, given the ratio of "whites" to "blacks".
Island communities which had smaller numbers of "whites" per capita
had to resort to different systems of maintaining their control and
elite status, The revolution in Haiti struck fear in the hearts of
masters throughout the New World, especially on the other islands, and
so other policies went into effect to minimize the chances for
outright slave rebellions.
Yes, there are differences between how slavery played out between and
among all of the colonial powers in the New World.. But both Catholic
and Protestants killed and enslaved in the name of God, and reaped
profits earned on the blood and bones of stolen Africans and their
descendants - mixed or un-mixed. And lets not forget the Arabs. This
does not excuse the participation in the slave trade by African elites
who profited from the slave trade as well. And that does not even
begin to address other atrocities: the treatment of Native Americans
(genocide) , indentured slavery of the Irish....brutal treatment of
Chinese coolies....( my prayer for us all is that humans evolve)
The legacy of slavery is with us. It wasn't that long ago. As I type
this I'm lookin' at a picture of my mom's grandmother who lived as a
slave till bought by my great grandfather and freed.
But that legacy brings with it the music, and rhythms and spirit of a
people who would not be broken. It is out of the pain and suffering
that we get the chance to celebrate the music we discuss here in rmal.
Had not there been slavery - I guess this ng would be
rec.music.euro.american (grin).
I certainly would not be here typing - or at least the me that is here
wouldn't be a caramel colored mestiza.
Denise
tang...@yahoo.com
Pronunciation: kwä-'drün
Function: noun
Etymology: modification of Spanish cuarterón, from cuarto fourth,
from Latin quartus -- more at QUART
Date: 1707
: a person of one-quarter black ancestry
Main Entry: oc·to·roon
Pronunciation: "äk-t&-'rün
Function: noun
Etymology: octa- + -roon (as in quadroon)
Date: 1861
: a person of one-eighth black ancestry
Source: Merriam-Webster online dictionary
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary
tangent90
At your service
Denise Oliver-Velez wrote:
>
> On Sat, 9 Dec 2000 10:39:57 -0800, " MS" <m...@nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
<snip />
> Historically, the only part of the United States that operated
> under the three-tiered system was Louisiana, since it was colonized
> and settled first by the French and Spanish. Louisiana developed the
> first, and most wealthy colored aristocracy in the United States.
> Because Louisiana was colonized by the French, a "tripartite legal
> distinction emerged"; whites, African slaves, and free people of color
> or gens de couleur libre. These free coloreds were the products of
> sexual liaisons between white planters and slave women initially, but
> generations of crossing sexual lines created not only mulattos
> (half-white), but also quadroons (one fourth white), octoroons (one
> eighth white), and mustees(one sixteenth white). Called "colored
> creoles" to make a distinction between these mixed-race persons and
> those white Frenchmen and women born in the colonies, the free
> persons of color in Louisiana enjoyed an economic freedom and an
> opportunity for education denied to other mixed-race slaves or free
> Negroes in the rest of the South. (Dominguez, 1986)
<snip />
zeno
Yambu wrote:
Yes, quite. Very rare stuff these days, although his Blue Note material
was reissued on CD, also hard to get, best bet is Abersold's catalog at
doubletimejazz.com
Most of the other stuff including his writings is rare rare collectibles
these days. Actually Oop-Pop-A-Da was his, Diz got it from him.
Zeno
zeno
Denise Oliver-Velez wrote:
An old girl friend of mine, Marsh Hunt (Berkeley in the 60s) {she used to come
to my gigs when I was the timbalero with the Ulyssess Crockett Latin Jazz
Quintet at the Left Bank - a club in Oakland}, went on to eventually portray
these kinds of family complexities in her writings "Real Life" (1986), "Joy"
(1990), "Free" 1993, "Repossessing Ernestine" (1996). I have long since lost
touch since she moved to Great Britain, but remember how troubling these things
were to her at the time. After performing in Hair, taking up with Mick Jagger
(they have a child), and becoming some kind of musical celebrity abroad, she
eventually sorted out some of her family history in these writings.
{The Zeno/Mick connection...... for what its worth....}
Zeno
zeno
Denise Oliver-Velez wrote:
These thoughts were corroborated more or less in a conversation I once had with
Robert Farris Thompson when he corrected my assumption that Caribbean slavery
was somehow softer than in the US. I had called him to find out the whereabouts
of any remants (museums etc.) of "African" drums that had been made in the US as
depicted in drawings from mid 19th century portrayals of Congo Square on
Sundays. He did not know of any!
Courlander later told me he had seen only one remnant in the 40s, a drum shell
that found extended life as a vessel for holding chicken feed in an Alambama
slave cabin. Unfortunately he did not photograph it.
Zeno
zeno
Denise Oliver-Velez wrote:
Was not the very great bebop trumpeter Theodore Navarro who played with Charlie
Parker and Bud Powell etc. a Cuban? Was he born in Cuba? Any information would
be of interest. Like so many others from that sphere he died tragically young
and I have seen very little written about him over the years. {There is that
great fantasy conversation in Mingus' "Beneath The Underdog".....do you know
it?}.
Zeno
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
definitive history of slavery which just presents facts and maybe attempts
to draw connections and parallels across all human groups. hopefully, it
would include the philosophical/religious/social justifications, the
economics involved, the treatment of slaves, etc. any recommendations
anyone?
--
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
My Home Page http://dmreed.com features my musical autobiography with audio
recordings, photos of groups I have worked with from the late 50s to the
present, rare 1960s recordings by pianist Carlos Federico, 1970s photos of
Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo,and selected LP and CD recordings from my
Latin music collection of CDs, LPs, tapes, books, and instructional
materials. Information about the US-International Keyboard (WINDOWS 95/98)
and a large printable keyboard image is also included.
04/18/00 NEW PAGE: RumbaRama (http://dmreed.com/rumbarama.htm) which
contains audio links to rumba recordings on my site and to other links and
information.
"zeno" <ze...@sonic.net> wrote in message news:3A343A9A...@sonic.net...
MS
>They also
> exist in the Jewish American community too.
I never heard of such concepts in the Jewish community. I'm Jewish myself,
although I'm not really much in touch with "the Jewish community" (other
than my family).
>Ask any Dominican
> hairdresser for a breakdown on the ethnicity of her clients
> (Dominicans in NY are the best "hair straighteners" around)
Well yes, Dominican concepts of race are probably very similar to Cubans.
> >On the other hand, they never had anything like our Jim Crow period here,
> >the brutal racial segregation they had in the Southern US. Races always
> >mixed easier there. But racist attitudes certainly exist, of lighter and
> >more European features being "better".
> >
> Jim Crow existed in the Caribbean as well - no signs, but check
> membership to certain clubs, see who could stay in certain hotels and
> who were the maids and porters. Interestingly enough Batista was
> turned away from certain elite venues in Cuba because of his race.
True. But not quite as marked and brutal as Jim Crow in the U.S. South fifty
years ago. Not separate bathrooms, back of the bus, "white" and "colored"
bathrooms, etc.
> Racial segregation was brutal in the US, no question. But if you
> check the work of historians of slavery - the most brutal slavery
> existed under both the Spaniards and the Portuguese, particularly the
> Portuguese. - the sheer numbers of slaves who didn't live more than
> four or five years would turn your stomach. You see, slaves were
> easier to replace than feed - given the access to slave ports on the
> African coasts and shipping supremacy . Slaves were a more expensive
> commodity in the US - and like farm animals - they got fed, clothed
> and housed - killing them was usually a last solution since
> plantation owners/farmers couldn't afford to lose their investments.
Agreed. The Spanish slaveowners were very brutal. I was referring to the
situations since the freeing of the slaves. Yes, there is racism both in
places. I just pointed out that it's different, and in a way has been more
brutal here. Things have changed a lot here in the last 40 years (certainly
here in California), and I don't know how much the situation has changed in
the Spanish and Portuguese speaking former slaveholding countries.
>
> "Mixing easier" is a loaded statement as well. The creation of large
> number of mixed race persons by those in power speaks of rape and
> coercion.
Actually, I heard that in Cuba, the slaveowners would often actually take a
slave woman as their wife, taking her out of slavery. That is different
here, where the "mixing" in slave times occurred only by rape.
> But that legacy brings with it the music, and rhythms and spirit of a
> people who would not be broken. It is out of the pain and suffering
> that we get the chance to celebrate the music we discuss here in rmal.
>
> Had not there been slavery - I guess this ng would be
> rec.music.euro.american (grin).
True. Out of that terrible blight called slavery, bringing so many Africans
to the new world, came a great influx and mixing of cultures. The silver
lining of a terrible cloud.
malanga
"zeno" <ze...@sonic.net> wrote in message news:3A343CB6...@sonic.net...
>
> >
> Was not the very great bebop trumpeter Theodore Navarro who played with
Charlie
> Parker and Bud Powell etc. a Cuban? Was he born in Cuba? Any information
would
> be of interest. Like so many others from that sphere he died tragically
young
> and I have seen very little written about him over the years. {There is
that
> great fantasy conversation in Mingus' "Beneath The Underdog".....do you
know
> it?}.
> Zeno
>
"Fats" was born in Key West..... of Afro-Cuban and Chinese parents.
BTW... his recordings with Parker came towards the end of his life... some
49-50 gigs recorded at Birdland with Parker & the Bud Powell trio are quite
memorable. A local (to me) singer, Little Jimmie Scott, sang with them on
some of these... and raved about Navarro and his ability to keep up,
improvisationally, with Bird.
MS
> I never heard of such concepts in the Jewish community. I'm Jewish myself,
> although I'm not really much in touch with "the Jewish community" (other
> than my family).
And actually, other than the blacks themselves, Jews have been in the
forefront in the struggles for civil rights in this country. My dad, at the
age of 82, is still a regular contributor to the NAACP, SCLC, and other
black groups.
> brutal here. Things have changed a lot here in the last 40 years
(certainly
> here in California), and I don't know how much the situation has changed
in
> the Spanish and Portuguese speaking former slaveholding countries.
I wanted to clarify what I meant here. I was not implying that racism has
been overcome in the U.S. It certainly still exists, and should always be
fought. But there has been significant major improvement in the racial
situation in the U.S. in the last forty years. And I'm not sure there has
been similar progress in these other societies we have been discussing. So,
although in 1950 I think the racial situation in the U.S. was definitely
worse than the Spanish-Portuguese former slave countries, I'm not at all
sure that's true today. But again, the situations are different, not always
comparable.
Denise wrote:
> > "Mixing easier" is a loaded statement as well. The creation of large
> > number of mixed race persons by those in power speaks of rape and
> > coercion.
By "mixing" I didn't just mean sexual mixing, but socializing among people
of different races. Again though, in California year 2000, one does see a
lot of socializing across racial lines. That may be different in other parts
of the country. And it certainly was VERY different 40 years ago.
Yambu
<deol...@pipeline.com> wrote:
>....Parish
>....priests kept records of white versus pardo (mulatto) genetic heritage....
>
The practise of families running to the parish birth/Baptism records
whenever one son or daughter showed an interest in a daughter or son
of another family is poignantly examined in PR novelist Rosario
Ferre's wonderful 1995 novel, "House on the Lagoon", available in
English and Spanish.
-Mike Doran
MS
Kaysee, in case you're still reading this thread......
It now has gone into an interesting discussion comparing slavery and racism
in the U.S., with that in Spanish and Portuguese speaking former
slave-holding countries.
We haven't discussed your country, the Bahamas, another English colony.
Different from the U.S. in that blacks are in the majority there, including
the majority in the government, etc. Are there still any vestiges of racism
there? How does it compare with our discussion of the other countries?
Denise Oliver-Velez
wrote:
>
>"Denise Oliver-Velez" <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
>news:tm373t46ui3ehgqr5...@4ax.com...
>>They also
>> exist in the Jewish American community too.
>
>I never heard of such concepts in the Jewish community. I'm Jewish myself,
>although I'm not really much in touch with "the Jewish community" (other
>than my family).
>
I wrote and co-produced a docu-drama for PBS in the 70's with
ex-husband Warrington Hudlin called "Color". At screenings of the
film, it was interesting to get strong responses from Jewish women who
viewed it - and identified with the subject matter. Several women
talked of their experiences with the stereotype of the "dark Jewess"
and childhood conflict with sisters who looked "Aryan" (blonde and
blue-eyed". Others talked of having their hair straightened or ironed
regularly to conform to standards of beauty that didn't accept kinky
hair. A glimpse into a large beauty salon called Jaffrees in NY
(very popular in the 60's) ...almost all the clients were Jewish
women..all the techs Dominican or Puerto Rican (they knew how to 'get
the kink out') I found out about Jaffrees in High School. A girl who
sat next to me in school, looked at my bushy hair and suggested I go
to get my hair straightened saying "my hair is kinky just like yours".
She was Jewish. I borrowed 15 bucks from my grandma and paid a trip
to the salon. I was the only customer of color. A few years later
"afro" hairstyles came in...and in New York...Jewish leftists bushy
hairdos were referred to as "Jafros".
(snip)
>Actually, I heard that in Cuba, the slaveowners would often actually take a
>slave woman as their wife, taking her out of slavery.
There is also a history of slave owners marrying women of color here,
particularly in Louisiana. But here and in Cuba, the beautiful woman
of color was usually a mistress. I read recently that genetic
evidence has finally proved the presidential historical footnote re:
Thomas Jefferson and his brood of children by his wife's half- sister
of color.
>That is different
>here, where the "mixing" in slave times occurred only by rape.
Mixing here pre-emancipation did not occur only by rape. There is a
long history in the Tidewater areas of intermarriage between Negros
and Irish indentured servants. Other regions varied - miscegenation
laws were not uniform. Those laws were still on the books in some
areas until recently.
The histories of these times, and comparisons - are still being
written. Much earlier work was distorted by particular political
agendas. It is interesting to note that abolition of Jim Crow laws
was resisted by the black elite in many areas of the South. Since
black doctors, lawyers and undertakers benefited by "separate but
equal facilities" they feared that if integration occurred, they would
lose their exclusive rights to their clientele (see E. Franklin
Frazier for a fascinating exploration of this theme)
I lived and visited in the South (Louisiana, Maryland, Tennessee, DC,
Virginia) during Jim Crow. I also experienced Northern de-facto
segregation. But as the daughter of an elite (college professor,
actor, director) I suffered very little. The "beige aristocracy" as I
call them had its own world, and social norms. One could easily be
cast out from that society for "marrying black" or "marrying white".
Fortunately for me, my father was a radical and I got raised as a
Marxist and didn't buy into the elite society trip - but it was there
for me if I had wanted it.
However, I have observed and experienced first hand racism and its
corrosive effects here, and in Puerto Rico. I have spent most of my
life as an activist fighting it.
Music is one of the bridges of cross cultural understanding, and this
forum (which often strays from a strict discussion of music) is a
prime example of a coming together of folks from diverse racial social
and cultural experiences to share in a mutual love of African
diasporic rhythms.
Alafia/peace.
Denise
Denise Oliver-Velez
>An old girl friend of mine, Marsh Hunt (Berkeley in the 60s) {she used to come
>to my gigs when I was the timbalero with the Ulyssess Crockett Latin Jazz
>Quintet at the Left Bank - a club in Oakland}, went on to eventually portray
>these kinds of family complexities in her writings "Real Life" (1986), "Joy"
>(1990), "Free" 1993, "Repossessing Ernestine" (1996). I have long since lost
>touch since she moved to Great Britain, but remember how troubling these things
>were to her at the time. After performing in Hair, taking up with Mick Jagger
>(they have a child), and becoming some kind of musical celebrity abroad, she
>eventually sorted out some of her family history in these writings.
>
>{The Zeno/Mick connection...... for what its worth....}
>
>Zeno
>
>
thanks for the reference -will check out
Denise
Denise Oliver-Velez
Another book for me to read (grin) You folks are sure keepin me busy
Denise
Denise Oliver-Velez
<dmr...@dmreed.com> wrote:
>with all these discussions regarding slavery, I am still looking for a
>definitive history of slavery which just presents facts and maybe attempts
>to draw connections and parallels across all human groups. hopefully, it
>would include the philosophical/religious/social justifications, the
>economics involved, the treatment of slaves, etc. any recommendations
>anyone?
Well here's a start-up list (grin) Patterson's Slavery and Social
Death is comparative
My fav on the list is Williams (both books)
Denise
Bush, Barbara (not the ex-pres wife)
1981 "White'ladies',Colored'Favorites' and Black'Wenches';
Some Considerations on Sex, Race and Class Factors in Social Relations
in White Creole Society in the British Caribbean
Carl Degler1971 Neither Black Nor White:Slavery And Race Relations
in Brazil And the United States, Univ. of Wisconsin Press
Genovese, Eugene D.1976 Roll, Jordan, Roll: The World the Slaves Made,
Vintage Books, New York
Geschwender, James A. 1978 Racial Stratification in America, William
C. Brown Co., Dubuque
Gutman, Herbert 1976 The Black Family in Slavery and
Freedom: 1750-1925, Vintage Books, New York
Horton, Oliver 1993 Free People of Color: Inside the African
American Community, Smithsonian Institution
Knight, Franklin W. 1970 Slave Society in Cuba During the Nineteenth
Century, Univ. of Wisconsin Press, Madison
Kopytoff & Miers 1977"Introduction", Slavery in Africa:
Historical and Anthropological Perspectives, Univ. of Wisc. Press
Harris, Marvin 1964 Patterns of Race in the Americas
1968 The Rise of Anthropological Theory
Martinez-Alier, Verena 1989 Marriage, Class and Colour in
Nineteenth-Century Cuba, Univ. Of Michigan Press, Ann Arbor
Meillassoux, Claude 1991 The Anthropology of Slavery: The Womb of Iron
and Gold, Univ. of Chicago Press
Mullin, Micheal 1992 Africa in America: Slave Acculturation and
Resistance in the American South and the British Caribbean, 1736
-1831, Univ. Of Illinois Press, Urbana
Patterson, Orlando Slavery and Social Death 1982
Harvard Univ. Press
Rituals of blood :consequences of slavery in two American centuries
(1998)
Williams, Eric 1970 "The Origin of Negro Slavery", Peoples and
Cultures of the Caribbean,
1979
From Columbus to Castro, Vintage Books
Williamson, Joel New People: Miscegenation and
Mulattos in the United States, Free Press, New York
Wolf, Eric 1982 Europe and the People Without
History, Univ. of Calif. Press
Also:
Robin Blackburn, The Making of New World Slavery: From the Baroque to
the Creole (London, New York: Verso, 1996/97).
Stuart B. Schwartz, Slaves, Peasants, and Rebels: Reconsidering
Brazilian Slavery (Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1992).
Herbert S. Klein, African Slavery in Latin America and the Caribbean
(New York: Oxford University Press, 1986)
.
Betty Wood, The Origins of American Slavery: Freedom and Bondage ion
the English Colonies (New York: Hill and Wang, 1997).
Peter Kolchin, American Slavery, 1619-1877 (New York: Hill and Wang,
1993).
Nina
Denise Oliver-Velez <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote:
Thanks!!! Every so often that show pops into my mind, something I
encounter will bring it to my the forefront of my conciousness and I
can NEVER remember ANYTHING to helpme identify it by title.
> I wrote and co-produced a docu-drama for PBS in the 70's with
> ex-husband Warrington Hudlin called "Color".
>
> >That is different
> >here, where the "mixing" in slave times occurred only by rape.
>
> Mixing here pre-emancipation did not occur only by rape. There is a
> long history in the Tidewater areas of intermarriage between Negros
> and Irish indentured servants. Other regions varied - miscegenation
> laws were not uniform. Those laws were still on the books in some
> areas until recently.
People come to the south sometimes and are surprised because white men
openly admire black women, they expect the opposite because of the
racist history. But actually, it seems that white males have to be
trained to not like black women, because in teh absence of peer
pressure and such, a great many white men have no problem with having
an equal and loving relationship with a black woman.
There is a saying "the southern plantation wife was the loneliest
person in the south" and another "the plantation wife knows who
fathered all the mulatto babies on other peoples land,but cant figure
out where they are coming from on hers"
Even in the absence of marriage and acceptance, there have been a great
deal of "equal"relaionships between black and white. There are white
men whose PRIMARY family has been with the black mistress and their
children despite having another wife and family. Perhaps on the white
side of town it wasnt well know,but in DarkTown everyone knew where Mr
Tom lived and who his family was.
In Louisiana there wasnt as much shame, and men openly sent their
mulatto, quadroom,octoroo, etc children to Europe to be educated.
Thanks in part to them we have jazz.
>
> The histories of these times, and comparisons - are still being
> written. Much earlier work was distorted by particular political
> agendas. It is interesting to note that abolition of Jim Crow laws
> was resisted by the black elite in many areas of the South. Since
> black doctors, lawyers and undertakers benefited by "separate but
> equal facilities" they feared that if integration occurred, they would
> lose their exclusive rights to their clientele (see E. Franklin
> Frazier for a fascinating exploration of this theme)
Also, many creoles of color didnt consider themselves black. Here in GA
a mulatto couldnt marry a black person. The white fathers would get
together to marry their mixed offspring to appropriate men of color.
There wasnt that need to pass for white because they were still able to
enjoy eleveated position due to their background. The onedrop rule blew
that all to hell.It made having 7/8ths white blood as useless as none.
>
> I lived and visited in the South (Louisiana, Maryland, Tennessee, DC,
> Virginia) during Jim Crow. I also experienced Northern de-facto
> segregation. But as the daughter of an elite (college professor,
> actor, director) I suffered very little. The "beige aristocracy" as I
> call them had its own world, and social norms. One could easily be
> cast out from that society for "marrying black" or "marrying white".
> Fortunately for me, my father was a radical and I got raised as a
> Marxist and didn't buy into the elite society trip - but it was there
> for me if I had wanted it.
God forbid you enter the wrong church w/out having passed the "paper
bag"or "fine tooth comb" tests. And u marry as white as you can without
actually marrying white.
And there comes a point where you KNOW that you are considered "elite"
and that even without social status and fmaily name that you are
regarded as being on a higher level.ANd your peers know that you are
seen as different. By 10th grade all the girls in school hang in groups
based on color. ( School Daze) and it isnt just that the lighter ones
are being superior, but that there is a signicifcant amount of distrust
and hostility towards them.
There is a curious blend of fascination envy and hatred seen. The
lighter girls especially become the focus of the other childrens anger.
It is as she becomes the embodiment of all the memories of being
ignored, treated more harshly, being less admired, watching the boys
gather like flies around even the ugliest mulatta ever born, being
teased about "nappy" hair etc. The most common form of vengance is to
gang up on the girl and cut her hair.
> However, I have observed and experienced first hand racism and its
> corrosive effects here, and in Puerto Rico. I have spent most of my
> life as an activist fighting it.
>
> Music is one of the bridges of cross cultural understanding, and this
> forum (which often strays from a strict discussion of music) is a
> prime example of a coming together of folks from diverse racial social
> and cultural experiences to share in a mutual love of African
> diasporic rhythms.
Denise Oliver-Velez
Nina, tried to respond to your e-mail about the paper - but it came
back :(
Should I re-try?
>
>
> Denise Oliver-Velez <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote:
>
>
>Thanks!!! Every so often that show pops into my mind, something I
>encounter will bring it to my the forefront of my conciousness and I
>can NEVER remember ANYTHING to helpme identify it by title.
Heh heh- I am still waiting for him to send me checks for
residuals....
>
>> I wrote and co-produced a docu-drama for PBS in the 70's with
>> ex-husband Warrington Hudlin called "Color".
>
>
>
>>
>> >That is different
>> >here, where the "mixing" in slave times occurred only by rape.
>
(snip)
>People come to the south sometimes and are surprised because white men
>openly admire black women, they expect the opposite because of the
>racist history. But actually, it seems that white males have to be
>trained to not like black women, because in teh absence of peer
>pressure and such, a great many white men have no problem with having
>an equal and loving relationship with a black woman.
>There is a saying "the southern plantation wife was the loneliest
>person in the south" and another "the plantation wife knows who
>fathered all the mulatto babies on other peoples land,but cant figure
>out where they are coming from on hers"
>
Yup. I had the opportunity to meet some "cousins" (same family name
as one of my ancestors) by chance. They are "white" Varicks. There's
a street named for him in NY - where SOB's is. But the Varick in
question also had a wrong side of the blanket son , who was sent to
college and went on to be a minister and found a line of "light
Varicks".
>Even in the absence of marriage and acceptance, there have been a great
>deal of "equal"relaionships between black and white. There are white
>men whose PRIMARY family has been with the black mistress and their
>children despite having another wife and family. Perhaps on the white
>side of town it wasnt well know,but in DarkTown everyone knew where Mr
>Tom lived and who his family was.
>In Louisiana there wasnt as much shame, and men openly sent their
>mulatto, quadroom,octoroo, etc children to Europe to be educated.
>Thanks in part to them we have jazz.
>
Yes...I remember as a kid when my dad was teachin at Southern Univ in
Baton Rouge (an historically black college) that the campus looked
integrated - lots of the students and many of the faculty looked
"white". I've heard it said that the Creoles in N'Orleans need a
computer to keep the pure versus tainted bloodlines of the fimne old
families straight
>
>
>>
>> The histories of these times, and comparisons - are still being
>> written. Much earlier work was distorted by particular political
>> agendas. It is interesting to note that abolition of Jim Crow laws
>> was resisted by the black elite in many areas of the South. Since
>> black doctors, lawyers and undertakers benefited by "separate but
>> equal facilities" they feared that if integration occurred, they would
>> lose their exclusive rights to their clientele (see E. Franklin
>> Frazier for a fascinating exploration of this theme)
>
>
>Also, many creoles of color didnt consider themselves black. Here in GA
>a mulatto couldnt marry a black person. The white fathers would get
>together to marry their mixed offspring to appropriate men of color.
>There wasnt that need to pass for white because they were still able to
>enjoy eleveated position due to their background. The onedrop rule blew
>that all to hell.It made having 7/8ths white blood as useless as none.
>
That's quite interesting - I didn't know that about Georgia. Would
like to learn more - any suggestions for reading?
>>
>> I lived and visited in the South (Louisiana, Maryland, Tennessee, DC,
>> Virginia) during Jim Crow. I also experienced Northern de-facto
>> segregation. But as the daughter of an elite (college professor,
>> actor, director) I suffered very little. The "beige aristocracy" as I
>> call them had its own world, and social norms. One could easily be
>> cast out from that society for "marrying black" or "marrying white".
>> Fortunately for me, my father was a radical and I got raised as a
>> Marxist and didn't buy into the elite society trip - but it was there
>> for me if I had wanted it.
>
>God forbid you enter the wrong church w/out having passed the "paper
>bag"or "fine tooth comb" tests. And u marry as white as you can without
>actually marrying white.
And you got presented in a Cotillion, sent your kids to Jack N Jill
(so they could meet other light kids......
>
>And there comes a point where you KNOW that you are considered "elite"
>and that even without social status and fmaily name that you are
>regarded as being on a higher level.ANd your peers know that you are
>seen as different. By 10th grade all the girls in school hang in groups
>based on color. ( School Daze) and it isnt just that the lighter ones
>are being superior, but that there is a signicifcant amount of distrust
>and hostility towards them.
Yeah...I got beat up for hangin with a "dark girlfriend" in the 6th
grade. Then I got beat up again for being "yellah". I then took
boxing lessons and karate.
>
>There is a curious blend of fascination envy and hatred seen. The
>lighter girls especially become the focus of the other childrens anger.
>It is as she becomes the embodiment of all the memories of being
>ignored, treated more harshly, being less admired, watching the boys
>gather like flies around even the ugliest mulatta ever born, being
>teased about "nappy" hair etc. The most common form of vengance is to
>gang up on the girl and cut her hair.
>
Ah yes, I remember those daze
and what is sad is that some of that stuff is still going on...
Denise
zeno
malanga wrote:
thanks for the info.
btw,
I was thinking that when a great artist has passed on into the annals of
history, we could maybe perhaps drop the "Fats" nickname, especially when it
was one that the artist was known not to have appreciated (as well as "Fat
Girl" {in spite of the tune with that title}).
I know this is the kind of PC-ness that someone like Wynton M. promotes
(preferring Louis Armstrong or "Pops" to the white-world's "Satchmo" (Satchel
Mouth) but it makes sense to me as well. This has come up in conversations or
discussions in which I am trying to convey to someone just how great a musician
was or that jazz is like our American classical music and somehow calling
someone "Fats" momentarily detracts from the emphasis I am trying to convey. I
have decided to always refer to this great artist as Theodore Navarro. Have
you seen his gravestone? I am wondering if it says "Fats" or "Fat Girl"?
Zeno
Yambu
>...... Have
>you seen his [Fats Waller's] gravestone? I am wondering if it says "Fats" or "Fat Girl"?
>
His ashes were dropped over Harlem by the WW I pilot hero, "The Black
Ace". I don't know if there's a marker for him anywhere.
-Mike Doran
malanga
"zeno" <ze...@sonic.net> wrote in message news:3A356311...@sonic.net...
>
> This has come up in conversations or
> discussions in which I am trying to convey to someone just how great a
musician
> was or that jazz is like our American classical music and somehow calling
> someone "Fats" momentarily detracts from the emphasis I am trying to
convey.
Hmmm.... maybe we need to take a traditional classical music approach....
like refer to and/or have all jazz players refer to each other as Herr
Doktor Professor Fats... rename "Round Midnight", let's see, Nahe
Mitternacht Opus 5?
So that folks, who don't get it, will?
Nah... don't think it'll work.
In fact, I think it would be a slap in the face to the roots of the genre.
> I
> have decided to always refer to this great artist as Theodore Navarro.
Have
> you seen his gravestone? I am wondering if it says "Fats" or "Fat Girl"?
Don't know... but Mel Blanc's says... "That's All Folks!"
Nina
Denise Oliver-Velez <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Dec 2000 19:45:28 GMT, Nina <nina...@worldspy.net> wrote:
>
> Nina, tried to respond to your e-mail about the paper - but it came
> back :(
> Should I re-try?
Yes please,I dont know WHY it didnt go thru. :(
> >
> >
> > Denise Oliver-Velez <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote:
> >
>
> Heh heh- I am still waiting for him to send me checks for
> residuals....
Hmm, i dont want to be the bearer of bad news, BUT.....
.....
> >
> Yes...I remember as a kid when my dad was teachin at Southern Univ in
> Baton Rouge (an historically black college) that the campus looked
> integrated - lots of the students and many of the faculty looked
> "white". I've heard it said that the Creoles in N'Orleans need a
> computer to keep the pure versus tainted bloodlines of the fimne old
> families straight
> >
My mother went to Southern as did my aunts and uncles and cousins etc.
(Granny is from Elizabeth , LA) My great uncle was a dean there for
about a zillion years, his wife(my grandmothers sister) taught there
and their son is a coach there right now. I KNOW Southern.
As far as looking "white", it is a favorite pastime down thataway to
guess who is black. In a crowd of 100 apparent white people there may
actually be 10 black people. There are those of us who can spot all 10.
And the funny thing is, people know when they have been spotted and
they will let u know. (Kinda like how gay people can tell who is gay ,
who is in the closet, and who isnt gay but has "gaydar".) There are
people who fight from the inside,they live and are accepted insociety
as whites but they are black and support black causes.
I have always thought that to be the real reason for the one drop
rule,not just to ensure that whites remain racially pure, but to
maintain their dominance. I mean, down here black slaves frequently out
numbered whites. If mulattos or quadroons had full white status,how
long would it have taken for them to start having influence and
allowing more and more power to their black mothers and cousins, buying
them and setting them free? The fear was that we would be like Puerto
Rico,or Cuba,nolonger a white mans country.
> >
> >Also, many creoles of color didnt consider themselves black. Here in
GA
> >a mulatto couldnt marry a black person. The white fathers would get
> >together to marry their mixed offspring to appropriate men of color.
> >There wasnt that need to pass for white because they were still able
to
> >enjoy eleveated position due to their background. The onedrop rule
blew
> >that all to hell.It made having 7/8ths white blood as useless as
none.
> >
> That's quite interesting - I didn't know that about Georgia. Would
> like to learn more - any suggestions for reading?
Hmm, I can look. My mother teaches genealogy classes here, and she gets
this stuff from everywhere.A lot of it is from old documents and public
records. A lot of it is oral history. I will email you.
> And you got presented in a Cotillion, sent your kids to Jack N Jill
> (so they could meet other light kids......
Ah...the Debutante Ball....
> >
.... By 10th grade all the girls in school hang in groups
> >based on color. ( School Daze) and it isnt just that the lighter ones
> >are being superior, but that there is a signicifcant amount of
distrust
> >and hostility towards them.
>
> Yeah...I got beat up for hangin with a "dark girlfriend" in the 6th
> grade. Then I got beat up again for being "yellah". I then took
> boxing lessons and karate.
You cant win. When i arrived in GA from Germany i had no awareness of
black-white dynamics.( and despite the influx of other people, there
are no other dynamics. we have no gray area) I learned very quickly. I
went to the Army Brat highschool and even there the civilian kids tried
to make it always a black/white world, but those of us who lived on the
edges, just formed our own little world. I still remembering on Race
Day ( the teachers are required to count the number of students by
race) a teacher calling me to the desk and whispering "what ARE
you?? "no se maestra. digame por favor"
> >
> >There is a curious blend of fascination envy and hatred seen. The
> >lighter girls especially become the focus of the other childrens
anger.
> >It is as she becomes the embodiment of all the memories of being
> >ignored, treated more harshly, being less admired, watching the boys
> >gather like flies around even the ugliest mulatta ever born, being
> >teased about "nappy" hair etc. The most common form of vengance is to
> >gang up on the girl and cut her hair.
> >
> Ah yes, I remember those daze
>
> and what is sad is that some of that stuff is still going on...
It is sad, what I try to remember is that it hasnt been that long, it
really hasnt. Maybe in 100 years the distinctions will fade and we can
move forward. Then I look at India....
Santa Salsera
> "Santa Salsera" <sal...@nospampicadillo.com> wrote in message
> news:3A2DF216...@nospampicadillo.com...
> > malanga wrote:
> >
> > > "Denise Oliver-Velez" <deol...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
> > > news:fjeq2t8jrkp0lqn1q...@4ax.com...
> > > > > >
> > > > Good point. I was thinking back to many of the Black Cubans I knew as
> > > > child, many of whom were musicians , and quite a few were jazz
> > > > musicians. They all came here pre-Castro, and did not join the White
> > > > community at all. They moved into either Black or Puerto Rican
> > > > neighborhoods, and all of them identified themselves as "Negro".
> > >
> > > Hmmm.... interesting.... let's see... this was "pre-Castro".... ergo...
> > > pre-1959 America....
> >
> > That's what the lady said. You tone-deaf or something?
> >
>
> > > Say... I wonder.... do you think that the realities of pre-Civil Rights
> > > America might have had to do *anything* with where/how they lived and
> what
> > > *society* considered them to be?
> >
> > You didn't read the New York Times series on Race in America, I take it.
> The
> > article I cited is about life in the year 2000 and it is even online. She
> > (Denise), and I, were talking about self-identifications. Maybe it's not
> just
> > the New York Times you don't read.
> >
>
> Excuse me, but I do believe that you don't seem to comprehend a couple of
> basic points:
>
> a) The "choice" which Ms. Velez seems to be suggesting was made by
> Afro-Cubans who emigrated before the Civil Rights era, was not a "choice"
> that they had at all. The "only" choice that any immigrant of colour had in
> those segregated times was.... well, we'll leave it for someone with your
> obviously great intelligence to figure out.
Thanks, and I'm sure someone of your caliber can figure out that the year 2000
article I cited on "How Race is Lived in America" is showing those same
identifications perpetuating themselves, into perpetuity as it were. My
perception was that your rough-hewn analysis of pre-Civil-Rights-era race
relations leaves out a subtle but important recognition of the subjectivity of
the oppressed, and the interaction of complex subjects with such things as rigid
social classifications. Denise has since made it clear that she understands the
points you have to offer, but it wasn't so clear to me that you really
understood hers. Sorry if I flew off the handle, but those type of sarcastic,
rhetorical questions as a way of calling something into question really get on
my nerves. It was Denise's battle, I should've left it for her to fight anyway,
which she has done admirably in the meantime, and a lot more coolheadedly than I
have.
> b) The series race in America, or at least the part which lent itself to the
> issue of Afro-Cubans, dealt with and used as an example almost exclusively
> mostly the situation which one set of recently arrived individuals found
> themselves in. I would suggest to you that it was not by any means an
> exhausting study of the subject.
Needless to say. It is a contemporary example, that's the point.
> I'm sure that somewhere in your life a Duke
Your assumptions are showing. I live in Durham, a black-majority municipality,
not Duke. What does it matter for the purposes of argument that I'm at Duke or
Timbuktu? You seem to want to imply that I must be a sheltered, rich undergrad
who has never faced or thought about the social realities of minorities.
Actually, I teach those kids, but I don't approach them as a social stereotype.
Even though the basis for that stereotype does exist, I find a fair number of my
students are socially aware, and intellectually curious (some of them are even
minorities!). I think it's important to reach these intelligent future members
of the American elite, who will have such a disproportionate impact on society
due to their positions of power and privilege. So I don't see "my life at Duke"
as all-defining of my worldview, nor do I see it as a disadvantageous position
from which to speak. It's just another window on the social reality of class in
America; it doesn't have to have the effect of wearing blinders.
> you've been faced with warnings about making sweeping and simplified
> conclusions based on limited information.
I'm usually the one issuing those warnings.
> I'd suggest that you might wish to
> ponder, what if anything, you might have learned from these warnings.
I think you have taken a wrong turn here, by deciding you will condescend to me
because you have presumed something about my background. That's a very dangerous
line of defense in any argument.
> If
> however, this is beyond your capability, I'll be happy to regale you with my
> own individual tales of Afro-Cubans families from the earlier waves who
> remained part of the general exile community,
Regale away. I'm not averse to anecdotal information.
> lived in the same apartment
> complexes and neighborhoods, went to the same public and *private* Catholic
> schools, etc. etc. etc. ...
I never said that never happened. But it seems clear, from other evidence, that
that doesn't always happen. Why do you have so much riding on whether or not the
Cuban exile community successfully integrates blacks?
> then I'll wait and see if you draw the same sort
> of simplified and sweeping conclusions from these that you draw about the
> case which appeared in the NYT (if only to see if you are at least
> consistent).
I don't think I made any generalizations whatsoever. I think that article offers
us the experience of someone that is equally valid and equally worth taking into
consideration. Are you willing to hear about that? It seems like his experience
challenges some other firmly fixed views about the exile community that you
already hold. The NYT series has no pretensions to making sweeping sociological
generalizations, and that, to me, is its strength.
> > > > Very different from the wave that hit our shores fleeing Castro.
> > >
> > > Ah... let's see... and which "wave" might that be... 1960s? 1970s?
> 1980s?
> > > 1990s?
> > >
> > > (I guess I just abhor simplifications... )
> >
> > I don't guess; I know that I am tired of people who can't draw a simple
> > straight line between their point and their conclusion. Cutesy sarcastic
> > detours are a sure sign of a wandering mind.
> >
>
> See my comment about Duke above
I'm still wondering what they mean. Why you would lean on a generalization about
who you think I am, to categorize whatever it is you don't like about what I
said?
> (and maybe ponder about what a tendency to
> drawing "straight lines" to reach conclusions regarding a most complex issue
I choose not to attack a complex issue with sarcasm or insinuations about my
interlocutor's identity, rather than about what he or she is saying, and how he
or she says it. That seems to me the most straightforward way to conduct a
conversation.
> suggests about one's thought processess)... and maybe, just maybe, you might
> wish to do some rawther basic research about the racial makeup of each
> different wave of Cuban exiles and as to where those among these exiles who
> were of colour, specially those who arrived here in a period when the
> "choice" was more of a choice.
I have no ambition to write the definitive sociological work on Afro-Cuban
immigration. I just found that article interesting, and relevant to the topic at
hand. You are welcome to disagree.
> On the other hand, if this is beyond your abilities, you might simply wish
> to tour the areas of Miami where more recent arrivals leave and see if you
> find only white Cubans.
Hm; nowhere did I ever make any statement about the racial makeup of the exile
community being exclusively white. Others have commented on the predominance of
white Cubans in the political movement that claims to represent the exile
community, so perhaps you should take it up with them.
> Cheers!
Down the hatch.
-Fabulana
malanga
>
{snip}
>
...whatever..
zeno
Yambu wrote:
actually I was referring to Navarro not Waller.
zeno
Navarro, he was known to have really resented it. So I am sticking to my
opinion on the subject. Anyway, he died skinny.
"In fact, I think it would be a slap in the face to the roots of the genre."
Right it should all be called Whore House music, I am sure that most musicians
are right there with you on this.
malanga
"zeno" <ze...@sonic.net> wrote in message news:3A385BB6...@sonic.net...
> If an artist accepted the nickname in his lifetime, maybe. In the case of
> Navarro, he was known to have really resented it. So I am sticking to my
> opinion on the subject. Anyway, he died skinny.
>
> "In fact, I think it would be a slap in the face to the roots of the
genre."
>
> Right it should all be called Whore House music, I am sure that most
musicians
> are right there with you on this.
>
No... but I would suggest that to not be honest about the roots of the
genre, to somehow avoid any negative connotations (real or imagined) about
the culture which gave rise to it, demeans the culture, smacks of historical
revisionism.
In fact, I'd suggest that one shows it disrespect by trying to have it
"pass" as something it isn't/wasn't. Which, imo, outweighs whatever
perceived damage it does to its ability to get the respect of those who,
well... just don't get it.
Stan Ginn
"zeno" <ze...@sonic.net> wrote in message news:3A356311...@sonic.net...This has come up in conversations or
discussions in which I am trying to convey to someone just how great amusicianwas or that jazz is like our American classical music and somehow calling
someone "Fats" momentarily detracts from the emphasis I am trying toconvey.
Stan
-- http://www.jps.net/stanginn