Siguaraya?
Wallice
> There are two famous ceibas in Managua Nicaragua.
Don't forget the one in Ponce, PR, which is pretty famous itself (at
least regionally).
--
Saludos,
Wallice
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What's happening in Dallas, you asked?
http://www.arsnova1.com
The Texas Afro-latin Music Connection
Wallice
>
> Lisa wrote, in part:
> Is the ceiba unique to Cuba?
Let me add to that last post of mine. Remember the song La Ceiba y la
Siguaraya, by Sonora Ponceña with Celia? One verse says:
"De Ponce es la Ceiba;
de Cuba la Siguaraya".
She makes reference to Papo Lucca being one and she being the other.
Pretty cool, eh?
E. C. Ballard
the Babalawo must give permission to cut the tree. Of course, Paleros and
Araras do not have to turn to Babalawos for permission. Many paleros keep
Ceibas on or about their munansos or temples.
That being said, the Ceiba (Latin: Ceiba Pentandra) and the Siguaraya
(Latin: Trichilia Havanensis Jacqardi) are not the same. The name for the
Ceiba in Lucumi is "Iroko". The Siguaraya in lucumi is "Atori". In Congo
the Ceiba is called "Nkunia Mabungu" or "Munanso Nsambi" while the
Siguaraya in Congo is "Inso" or "Tinso". The palo cut from the Siguaraya
is also known as Palo Rompe Camino or Palo Abre Camino and less frequently
as Tapa Camino.
Eoghan
--
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Nsambiempungo l'acutara
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
ebal...@sas.upenn.edu
pablo
"E. C. Ballard" wrote:
>
> The Ceiba is sacred to all the African religions of Cuba. ..
The "Ceiba" term has long lost its strict religious-ceremonial
significance in many parts of the Caribbean, and simply stands for
"traditional" stuff. Do a check on traditional Colombian music, and "La
Ceiba" will pop up 50 times over as an umbrella trm for bullerengues and
the like...
...pablo
ze...@metro.net
Siguaraya which is the "subject"/title of the Lino Frias song that
Ceila Cruz sang with Sonora Matancera, also done by Beny More and
others. Anyone know what the lyrics of this song are expressing?
Several people have mentioned "the rules" and I promise I won't cut
one down without checking first. What would be of interest is some
more information or folklore pertaining to why each of these trees has
sacred significance, if this is even known today. "Iroko" is certainly
a familiar term since one hears it mentioned in the music, and if I am
not mistaken was the name of the musical ensemble that Carlos Embale
was associated with for many years. Siguaraya I have only heard in the
above mentioned song which I am assuming from the gist of this thread
so far is also perhaps from a 'sacred' context.
Zeno
{The Ceiba is sacred to all the African religions of Cuba. In Ocha and
Bonestud
>a familiar term since one hears it mentioned in the music
Can anyone explain a phrase I've heard in several tunes. I think the word is
"Aroko" or something. I think Mayito sings "Esa nina me dio los santos a mi me
dio aroko" or something. Am I totally off base? And what does Roberto mean
when he sings "Y un Iroko rompio el hechizo?"
Curtis
E. C. Ballard
several sacred trees in Africa, but according to a loose interpretation of
the doctrine of signatures, a similar looking plant (or tree) with similar
characteristics can serve in another's place.
To Bonestud: I can easily explain the latter of your two phrases. "The
Ceiba broke the spell (or magic)". The Ceiba is used in many Afro-cuban
religions as a source of power, in fact the ceiba is considered an Oricha
- Iroko. Many works of magic are placed at its roots or in its branches.
Thus, in that one song, the Ceiba is credited with undoing some magic
thrown at the individual.
Eoghan
I'd be a bit leery of agreeing with this one. Perhaps a few people living
far away may interprit it that way but given the fact that even college
professors and professionals in places like Cuba, Trinidad, Jamaica, etc.
have worldviews in which spirit possession is considered as real as gene
splicing, or more so, it is probably inaccurate to assume that. Musicians
are no less subject to such living traditions. It is safer to consider
such a blanket statement as reflective of the views of the listener than
the opinion of the writers or singers.
It is good to remember that these are in fact expanding rather than
receeding traditions.
Eoghan
Eoghan Ballard
Center for Folklore & Ethnology
University of Pennsylvania
Wallice
> The Ceiba is sacred to all the African religions of Cuba.
Then there might be no coincidence that Ponce's La Ceiba is in the San
Anton neighborhood, birthplace of the plena afro rhythm. Hmmmmmm....
Eoghan
equated in Cuba with Chango, the Yoruban god of Thunder. 7 Rayos is
literally "7 Lightnings". Nsasi is probably the most important diety in
most lines of Congo Religion in Cuba, whether Shamalongo, Kimbisa,
Mayombe, Monte, etc.
pablo
Eoghan wrote:
>
> > The "Ceiba" term has long lost its strict religious-ceremonial
> > significance in many parts of the Caribbean, and simply stands for
> > "traditional" stuff. Do a check on traditional Colombian music, and "La
> > Ceiba" will pop up 50 times over as an umbrella trm for bullerengues and
> > the like...
> >
> > ...pablo
>
> I'd be a bit leery of agreeing with this one. Perhaps a few people living
> far away may interprit it...
Errr - I am Colombian and Caribbean. I think all the science around the
Ceiba somewhat misses the point on what it means to the majority of
people living in those areas those days. The Congo Jungle in the times
of Livingston and Stanley it ain't...
...pablo
Eoghan
sure since you live in the 20th century you are) It doesn't need to be the
time of livingstone and Stanley in the Congo. Try October 19, 1999 in
Brooklyn NY or Harmlem, or Miami, or Kingston, Philadelphia, Los Angeles,
or Havana. Sorry, but these beliefs and traditions are very very much with
us today. They should no more be treated as signs of backwardness than
membership in the Catholic church or Baptist Church or membership even,
gasp, in the AMA is.
As for Columbia, the African derived religions of Cuba have spread to
Columbia and also to Venezuela, Mexico, Puerto Rico, the US, Canada, and
even Europe.In the meantime, Afro Brazilian religions have spread to
Uruguay and Argentina, even beginning to slowly make a presence felt in
the US. There are Umbanda temples and Palo munansos in Italy and
California.
As for who accepts these faiths, well, include college professors,
business executives, civil servants, yes, even musicians...
Salamaleko,
pablo
Eoghan wrote:
>
> Err, with all due respects to your wanting to appear modern (which I am
> sure since you live in the 20th century you are) It doesn't need to be the
> time of livingstone and Stanley in the Congo. ...
You say "in Cuba" as if all freaking Cubans were into ancestral African
traditions. Like most traditions, it is a dying thing. You misrepresent
the culture.
I am sure you are very erudite on the subject, but the fact that me, a
Colombian Caribbean guy proud of some African ancestry associates
"Ceiba" with mostly other stuff these days ought to tell you something.
All you said is correct. But tone down on the academic arrogance and
tell me how many Cubans you know who can name everything associated with
the ancestral rites and religions. I know in Colombia, I knew exactly
*2* people that were into it, and they were old, and died without their
children taking much of that legacy forward. It was regarded as
provincial and obsolete.
I am not saying it is something good. But you are overstating its actual
significance.
...pablo
Bonestud
>traditions. Like most traditions, it is a dying thing. You misrepresent
>the culture.
No it's not dying. Sorry. While not everyone in Cuba is a "creyente" almost
all of them have a good background in what the religion(s) are about,
especially those in the arts.
>tell me how many Cubans you know who can name everything associated with
>the ancestral rites and religions. I know in Colombia, I knew exactly
>*2* people that were into it, and they were old, and died without their
>children taking much of that legacy forward.
I know quite a few Cubans who are creyente and aren't old. And many of them
came to the religion without their parents being into it. Look at most popular
music groups when they play live and see how many have mano de orula. Quite a
few.
>I am not saying it is something good. But you are overstating its actual
>significance.
There is no possible way to overstate the importance of African religions in
Cuban culture.
Curtis
E. C. Ballard
> You say "in Cuba" as if all freaking Cubans were into ancestral African
> traditions. Like most traditions, it is a dying thing. You misrepresent
> the culture.
When were you last in Cuba? It is hardly that. With no wish to argue, I
have to point out that I have done the research and have the first hand
experience and contacts in all those places I've mentioned to contradict
your view.
> I am sure you are very erudite on the subject, but the fact that me, a
> Colombian Caribbean guy proud of some African ancestry associates
> "Ceiba" with mostly other stuff these days ought to tell you something.
It tells me that you as a colombiano are anxious not to appear backward.
The fact that such traditions do not make those who follow them backward
is of little importance in terms of your personal reaction. You are
entitled to your views. However, don't presume to speak for all.
> All you said is correct. But tone down on the academic arrogance and
> tell me how many Cubans you know who can name everything associated with
> the ancestral rites and religions. I know in Colombia, I knew exactly
> *2* people that were into it, and they were old, and died without their
> children taking much of that legacy forward. It was regarded as
> provincial and obsolete.
How many? Well let's see... There's the dozen or so people under 25 who
are students in the munanso of Tata Nsasi Vira Montana Remolino (Roque
Cabrera) in Parraga, La Habana many of whom I've met several times while
there both before and after my Rallarmiento. There are the members of
countless religious houses throughout all of Cuba, many who are in the 20s
or younger. I must of course include the half dozen or so inlaws and
cousins of my wife as well as her sister, many of whom are initiated and
who live as far from one another as La Isla de Juventud, La Habana, and
Santiago de Cuba. Then there are the customers who support the several
thousand Botanicas that exist in New York, New Jersey, and Florida not to
mention the rest of the East Coast of the US and the West Coast as well.
> I am not saying it is something good. But you are overstating its actual
> significance.
Afraid not. While you were looking the other way it has become a world
religion. This is also fairly well documented. There are international
Orisha conventions held annually by several organizations in places such
as New York, Montevideo, Bahia, etc. The rights of this and similar
religions have been fought and won even as high up as the Supreme Court of
the United States (Hialiah vs. CLBA) and even Haitian Vodoun (perhaps the
most maligned of all African derived religions thanks to Hollywood) gets
favorable press in US Newspapers these days. I am currently in touch with
people in places like Cuba, Brazil, Agentina, Itally, the netherlands,
Norway, and throughout the US and Puerto Rico (et al) who are initiated
priests or priestessess in the religion.
In Philadelphia, for the past twenty years or so there has been an annual
festival for Ochun called Odunde. It grows bigger every year. During this
years celebration I saw African Americans, Euro-Americans and Latinos who
follow various forms of African derived religions participating. I cannot
tell you exactly how many possessions I witnessed on the public streets of
this large US City that day alone, but they numbered between 20 and 50.
The crowd was estimated as being over 5,000. Sorry to sound preechy or
"academically arrogant" as you put it. That was not my intention. If I
came off that way, I apologize. However, you are misinformed and I wanted
to set the record straight.
kaysee
stronger in some areas than in others. I am seeing Cuba and Brazil? as two
places where the tradition has been maintained.
kaysee
Bonestud wrote in message <19991019172855...@ng-fx1.aol.com>...
>>You say "in Cuba" as if all freaking Cubans were into ancestral African
>>traditions. Like most traditions, it is a dying thing. You misrepresent
>>the culture.
>
E. C. Ballard
<KAYS...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> From this discussion I am getting the impression that this tradition is
> stronger in some areas than in others. I am seeing Cuba and Brazil? as two
> places where the tradition has been maintained.
Some areas are more universal in their acceptance of these traditions. It
is signficant that in varying ways it has been said of both Cuba and
Brazil that while nearly everyone is "Catholic" virtually everyone is a
believer in Afro diasporic religions, including those who deny it. There
was a cartoon in a major Rio paper a few years ago with a young man
talking with his girlfriend. In the firstframe, as they drive in his
flashy convertable, he is scolding her for believing in "macumba". In the
second frame he nearly runs over a bunch of people to avoid an offering
placed in the intersection. Point made.
Still, if it is true that the traditional religion is more dramatically
visible in Cuba and Brazil for a variety of factors, it is no less
influential in places such as Trinidad or Jamaica. It is signficantly
large in most US cities that you will see plenty of people who wear Elekes
(the beads associated with the priesthood of many of these religions) and
they can be strangers even to other local followers of the religion.
The stats I have seen, and like all stats they are disputed but simply
over percentage points, put followers of Cuban derived religions only (not
including Jamaican, Trinidadian, Haitian, or Brazilian branches of these
traditions) in the USA at something greater in number than either the
Unitarian Church or the Society of Friends (Quakers). That is of course,
the conservative estimate.
pablo
"E. C. Ballard" wrote:
> ..
> It tells me that you as a colombiano are anxious not to appear backward.
Don.t patronize me, OK? I am not anxious about anything, nor do I care
about what pet prejudices about Colombia you might have. Fact is, in
depth knowledge of ancestral African rites in Colombia is a thing that,
like Indio language and tradition, are *sadly* but surely disappaering
because the number of people taking it on has decreased dramatically
with the mass exodus from the country to the city. For many reasons.
The one you picked, the urge to not appear backward, not being one of
them.
> The fact that such traditions do not make those who follow them backward
> is of little importance in terms of your personal reaction. You are
> entitled to your views. However, don't presume to speak for all.
I have never done that. You are the one talking about "..in Cuba, Ceiba
is.. " as if *all* Cubans were to this day intimately familiar with the
ancestral ways of the past. Which they aren't.
Some general knowledge is there, hell, I probably know far more about
this than the average Colombian these days, but the forms that passed
around in the family are personalized and not as formal as you want to
make it appear. With your lecture, you conjure up the image of an
organized religion, where everything means the same thing to everybody,
which actually *totally* misses the point of ancestral religions, which
are highly personalized, and where every village and family follows
different rites to the point where they are decried as mere
superstitious flippancy.
> How many? Well let's see... There's the dozen or so people under 25 who
> are students ...
A truly significant number that no doubt can be extraploated to mean "..
all Cubans .."
> ... I must of course include the half dozen or so inlaws ...
Oh, we're up to legions. 18 people total.
> ... Then there are the customers who support the several
> thousand Botanicas that exist in New York, New Jersey, and Florida not to
> mention the rest of the East Coast of the US and the West Coast as well.
So, if you walk around in Habana, what percent of the population you
think would know what you're talking about truly know something about
the "magic" of Ceiba? I am not saying there aren't there, but I'd rate
it at way under 2% these days.
> Afraid not. While you were looking the other way it has become a world
> religion. This is also fairly well documented. ..
By the Catholic Church, which all across Latin America claims that the
folsk running out of their churches in bunches all join some
semi-satanic semi-African derivative.
Many people joining these movements do *not* show a continuity in
tradition, but might as well have joined the Jehovah's Witnesses in
their theological search. I am not saying it is invalid - but the
relative resurgence has *not* have anything to do with a strong base.
You coud argue the numbers are recovering, but it's in a way that is in
many cases of very doubtful authenticity. I have seen a *lot* of people
that allegedly practise Santeria that actually can not spell a single
damn orisha, or name 'em all. I mean, damn.
You have to admit there is a lot of b*llshit going on around this
"resurgence". Especially if you know you're stuff the way you seem to
do, you know how much charlatanery is going around.
Do not get me wrong - I find your messages very instructive and totally
welcome them. I just think you go a tad overboard with statements that
make it seem as if this was all common knowledge among all members of
the AfroLatin community, which is not the case at all. Some of them are
trying to re-discover this in the typical "back to our roots" quest of
the un-rooted and somewhat confused community, and a sizeable share of
those is falling victim to opportunism in the process. I had to just
conive a Latino activist friend of mine that in Colombia people do *not*
willingly donate 15% of their paycheck to their santeria priest, as he
was being led to believe in his quest for an authentic AfroLatin faith.
...pablo
pablo
"E. C. Ballard" wrote:
>
> When were you last in Cuba?
I forgot to answer to this question, even if I fail to understand its
significance - people often tend to see whatever they want to see in a
certain environment, and often are only set on confirming stuff to
themselves. Having been in Cuba doesn't turn anybody into a Cuba
cultural expert. Not me, anyway.
I have been in Cuba often, most recently for 2 weeks in '98. I do have
good friends that live in Cuba. And certainly know a lot of people.
Which does not mean I know a lot about it. But I recognize a gross
blanket statement when I see it.
...pablo
E. C. Ballard
however sincere isn't a substitute for knowledge or experience. Nor does
having studied something intently necessarily clowd one's judgement.
ze...@metro.net
>us today. They should no more be treated as signs of backwardness >than membership in the Catholic church or Baptist Church or >membership even, gasp, in the AMA is.
>As for Columbia, the African derived religions of Cuba have spread to
>Columbia and also to Venezuela, Mexico, Puerto Rico, the US, Canada, >and even Europe.In the meantime, Afro Brazilian religions have spread >to Uruguay and Argentina, even beginning to slowly make a presence >felt in the US. There are Umbanda temples and Palo munansos in Italy >and California.
>As for who accepts these faiths, well, include college professors,
>business executives, civil servants, yes, even musicians...
>Salamaleko,
>Eoghan
E=M C/squared.
Zeno
ze...@metro.net
Zeno
ze...@metro.net
both Cuba and Brazil that while nearly everyone is "Catholic"
virtually everyone is a believer in Afro diasporic religions,
including those who deny it. There was a cartoon in a major Rio paper
a few years ago with a young man talking with his girlfriend. In the
firstframe, as they drive in his flashy convertable, he is scolding
her for believing in "macumba". In the second frame he nearly runs
over a bunch of people to avoid an offering placed in the
intersection. Point made.}
The same skepticism/cynicism which some apply to various dogmas around
the planet can be applied here as well. Only thing is, gee whiz, this
stuff can be way scarier. On the other hand, some very beautiful
folklore.
John Doe
pablo
"E. C. Ballard" wrote:
>
> And respectfully Pablo, you seem fairly good at making them too.
Making what? A logical link would be nice.
> ... Opinion,
> however sincere isn't a substitute for knowledge or experience. ...
I see, you have established very credibly how you have used established
demograpical and statistical analysis tools to totally demonstarte all
of Cuba's population -now you've thrown in Brazil, too- is into
Santeria. Not.
> ... Nor does
> having studied something intently necessarily clowd one's judgement.
Oh, you know the religion and facts. I never argued with that. You just
wildly overstate its true distribution.
...pablo
pablo
vgdesign, @primenet.com wrote:
>
> My experience in Cuba confirms this.
> Many who say they don't believe at all in the African religion
> turn to it immediately in times of trouble or practice certain rituals.
Putting up a glass of water at night for the spirits or doing salt
tricks does not make people into hardcore Santeria experts. The wild
majority of people have had some exposure, and know a little stuff, but
have no idea about most of the major mythololgy and larger folklore and
religious framework.
I have seen serious practitioners in Colombia. I saw them about 20 years
ago. They are long dead, and the stuff I see these days is mostly fake
and halfway coughed up from a few books and rumors people looking for
their roots come up with.
...pablo
pablo
Yambu1 wrote:
>
> ...
> Despite some supremely arrogant flack sent your way in this thread, I have
> enjoyed the discussion.
?
> Eoghan, I am fascinated that this religion has survived to today, and now
> florishes in many places within and without Latin America. What throws me is
> that it espouses a cosmology which can only be described as primitive ..
I fail to see how the basic concept is any more primitive than
Christianity. Faith is faith.
> .. Please give us your opinion as to why it
> maintains, what it has to offer 20th Century folks, what adjustments it has
> made, etc.
Look no further as to why Westerners run in bunches to Buddhism of
Hinduism pr the Krishnas, for that matter. Or Afronationalists convert
to Islam. It is a mix of self-search through theology and, in the case
of some AfroLatins, a quest for perceived authentic stuff that
contributes to a feeling of cultural identity.
I grew up in a highly supersticious household. Those superstitions are
all based on this stuff, and most are common along the Caribbean area.
That does not make me a santeria practitioner. These rites are stuff
people do merely for themselves as their own thing, it is second nature,
but claiming that is part of an organizaed religion misses the point. My
mother would be highly offended if she's told she's part of an organized
non-Christian religion. You go to church for religion, but do some stuff
to keep up a good relationship with the house-spirits. It is definitely
a small minoroty that makes a religion out of the latter.
...pablo
Yambu1
>....While you were looking the other way it has become a world
>religion. This is also fairly well documented. There are international
>Orisha conventions held annually by several organizations in places such
>as New York, Montevideo, Bahia, etc.....
>
Despite some supremely arrogant flack sent your way in this thread, I have
enjoyed the discussion.
Eoghan, I am fascinated that this religion has survived to today, and now
florishes in many places within and without Latin America. What throws me is
that it espouses a cosmology which can only be described as primitive (though
no more so than Genisis, IMO). Please give us your opinion as to why it
maintains, what it has to offer 20th Century folks, what adjustments it has
made, etc.
>
>- Mike Doran
Bonestud
>stronger in some areas than in others. I am seeing Cuba and Brazil? as two
>places where the tradition has been maintained.
Of course. YOu don't see it at all in the US minus some vestiges that have
made it into folklore and wivestales, but nothing concrete. Cuba and Brazil
have it nearly intact.
Curtis
Kvetcher2
several songs in which it is named. The rumba Donde estabas anoche, with the
coro Ven ven, iroko ven ven, is an example. Anybody want to dig it our via
dejanews?
Salu2--
Felipe (Philip Pasmanick)
rumba clave: xooxoooxooxoxooo
son clave: xooxooxoooxoxooo
My decima article:
http://ntama.uni-mainz.de/~ntama/articles/pasmanick/
ZIP archive as:
Yambu1
>Anyone see that Monty Python's take on Santeria? What film was that?
>Zeno
>
>
>- Mike Doran
Bonestud
>coro Ven ven, iroko ven ven, is an example.
I've always heard this as "ban ban Iroko ban ban" (or to Formell "van van
Iroko. . .").
Curtis
Yambu1
>> Eoghan, I am fascinated that this religion has
survived to today, and now
>> florishes in many places within and without Latin America. What throws me
>is
Pablo responded:
>
>I fail to see how the basic concept is any more primitive than
>Christianity. Faith is faith.
>
Don't quote me out of context. My very next phrase was: "...( although no more
primitive than Genesis, IMO)..."
I asked Eoghan:
>> .. Please give us your opinion as to why it [Santería]
>> maintains, what it has to offer 20th Century folks, what adjustments it has
>> made, etc.
>>
Pablo responded:
>Look no further as to why Westerners run in bunches to Buddhism of
>Hinduism pr the Krishnas, for that matter. Or Afronationalists convert
>to Islam. It is a mix of self-search through theology...
>
I would hope religious inquiry is about self-search. Your facile comparisons
don't satisfy me. I want to know what it is about THIS set of beliefs that is
attracting such diverse people to it. You can't tell me why, but perhaps Eoghan
can.
>I grew up in a highly supersticious household. Those superstitions are
>all based on this stuff, and most are common along the Caribbean area.
>That does not make me a santeria practitioner. These rites are stuff
>people do merely for themselves as their own thing, it is second nature,
>but claiming that is part of an organizaed religion misses the point. My
>mother would be highly offended if she's told she's part of an organized
>non-Christian religion. You go to church for religion, but do some stuff
>to keep up a good relationship with the house-spirits....
>
With modifications, you just described my Irish grandmother.
My impression of Santería and kindered beliefs is that it allows for just the
flexibility you describe. But I'll wait to hear from Eoghan.
>
>- Mike Doran
Bonestud
>more
>primitive than Genesis, IMO)..."
Religions are almost all primitive because they were invented at a time when
science didn't suffice to answer questions (and in many cases hadn't been
invented itself). So any religion which would not seem "primitive" to us now
would have to be invented sometime after the renaisance I would say which would
put it at a time when science would be able to explain to much of it for people
to follow it.
Also, I have heard Christians object to the African religions because of their
use of animal sacrifice (starting a whole new thread to this thread) to which I
reply "Christianity not only has blood sacrifice but it has human sacrifice.
On top of that every Sunday you eat and drink the body and blood of that
person. Isn't that a little weird too? Religion doesn't make sense."
Curtis
Bonestud
>> florishes in many places within and without Latin America. What throws me
>is
>> that it espouses a cosmology which can only be described as primitive ..
Who wrote this? I missed the original post and only caught it quoted in a
reply.
Curtis
Bonestud
>turn to it immediately in times of trouble or practice certain rituals.
>
For instance, how many times have you seen someone pour of the first swig of
rum before drinking from the bottle? These are the things that for me prove
that the African tradition is alive and well and also extremely pervasive in
Cuba.
Curtis
Steve Roitstein
> Yambu1 wrote:
> > What throws me is
> > that it espouses a cosmology which can only be described as primitive ..
>
> I fail to see how the basic concept is any more primitive than
> Christianity. Faith is faith.
I can dig that. Faith is faith. If you're going to call one of them
primitive, then they all are.
--
Steve Roitstein
Riot Music, Miami
st...@riotmusic.com
Bonestud
>tricks does not make people into hardcore Santeria experts
She never said that.
>I have seen serious practitioners in Colombia. I saw them about 20 years
>ago. They are long dead, and the stuff I see these days is mostly fake
>and halfway coughed up from a few books and rumors people looking for
>their roots come up with.
Great, good for you. Meanwhile in Cuba the religion is alive and well and not
dying away. So what is it exactly your arguing? I think this thread has used
itself up basically. Also I'd like to point out that you have been at times
rude when referring to a religion. I might not believe in religion or might
even think it's silly, but I also realize a lot of people truly believe it and
put their faith into it so I refrain from talking bad about it in public. I'd
suggest you do the same.
Curtis
Yambu1
>>> Eoghan, I am fascinated that this religion has survived to today, and now
>>is
>>> that it espouses a cosmology which can only be described as primitive ..
>
>reply.
>
>Curtis
>
Genesis, IMO)".
>
>- Mike Doran
Eoghan
While I have no intention to allow this to devolve into tit for tat, the
fact is you cannot and have not substantiated your prejudices. You claim
that I am manipulating data and then make wild assertions of your own that
my own experience and the work of many academicians and people in the
press contradict.
A very substantial and well informed youthful generation of believers in
these traditions exist. They know the religious songs, have studied the
liturgical languages and many have even made pilgrimages to the African
sources of their specific traditions much as Christians and Jews visit
Isreal and followers of Islam go to Mecca. They are educated, articulate
and sincere. What is more, while many are of at least partial African
descent, many are not. In fact in recent years these traditions have
reached out beyond their traditional Afro-caribbean and latino base to
welcome Anglo and even Asian American and European followers. That you
would rather paint the whole phenomenon as disappearing superstition only
shows that you are tied to the uninformed prejudices of an earlier
generation.
Fine, don't take my word for it. Go read Robert Farris Thompson's "Face of
the Gods", or David Green's "The Garden in the Machine", or Natalia
Bolivar Arostegui's "Cuba Santa" and "Ta Makuneda Yaya y las reglas de
Palo" or the numerous titles in English by John Mason. Go read the various
articles in the book "Africa's Ogun" which was edited by Sandra Barnes,
one of the professors on my dissertation committee. My position is well
researched and very well documented. I am not exaggerating anything. In
fact I have consciously avoided quoting the more extravagant claims
concerning the growth of these traditions, not that they are totally
without merit.
You need to put this in a larger perspective to understand or appreciate
it. The fact is that we are witnessing what has been called the
dissillusionment of society with science. In the last years of the
twentieth century herbal medicine, accupuncture and even more exotic forms
of medical practices have entered the mainstream not merely in trendy
California but the rest of the US and even the world beyond. These
traditional forms are often recognized by the medical establishment as
being efficacious. Along with this, traditional religious beliefs and
spiritual technologies have gained new attention and many new and youthful
followers from all walks of life and in many countries. Afro-diasporic
religions are just one of the traditions that are a part of this
phenomenon.
Botanicas selling materials for and services from followers of Ocha and
Palo have not only proliferated and become commonplace in virtually any US
city where Latino or caribbean communities exist but many now are
developing multilingual websites. International conferences occur several
times a year now. One recent conference, sponsored by the Caribbean
Cultural Center in NYC brought in priests and guest speakers from such
diverse locations as Brazil, Trinidad, and Nigeria as well as Florida and
NY. There are numerous websites set up as sources of information for
members of these religions as well as several listservs and newsgroups.
The people who are involved with this may hardly be described as luddites
or ignorant.
To bring this back to ground and in recognition that this newsgroup is
about MUSIC and not religion, I will point out just a couple of
contemporary groups and musicians who are treating this subject in ways
that clearly go beyond just a nod to "dusty and quaint folklore" and which
belie your previous statement that references to these things are largely
secular.
Take a look at the recordings of Ricardo Lemvo y Makina Loca based in LA
or of the young Cuban group named Orishas, all of whose recordings are
based upon a very thorough knowledge of the ritual music of La Regla de
Ocha and are sung in Lucumi, the Cubanized form of the Yoruba language
that is used in religious ceremonies in Cuba and where ever the Cuban
diaspora has carried traditional religion.
With this post I will beg forgiveness for having gone on for so long off
topic and let it rest for awhile. Pablo, I doubt very much that any amount
of well documented qualatative or quantative analysis will alter your
position. You're entitled to view these traditions as archaic and
anachronistic if you like. I can't challange that right. However, your
desire to prove them on the wane or dying out is just plain uninformed and
I have attempted, both for you and for others who might not have access to
this information, to correct these misperceptions.
Salamaleko y bendiciones,
Eoghan Ballard
(Tata Enkise 7 Rallos Quimbisa Santo Cristo Buen Viaje)
Ethnologist and Doctoral Candidate, University of Pennsylvania.
Eoghan Ballard
Center for Folklore & Ethnology
University of Pennsylvania
pablo
Yambu1 wrote:
> ... Your facile comparisons
> don't satisfy me.
Oh, feeling confrontational again.
Well, facile questions ("master, whgat is the meaning of life") usually
seek for facile answers.
Obviosuly our society has a spritual void, and the quest for material
things does not entirely fulfill people.
*All* religions go fo this equally.
You go for the usual naive "this religion might be better than the
other" kinda question.
Read Charles Handy's "The Hungry Spririt", a d don't try to find
existential answers on internet newsgroups.
> My impression of Santería and kindered beliefs is that it allows for just the
> flexibility you describe. But I'll wait to hear from Eoghan.
Eoghan described a formal religion with ridig meaning and habits, which
totaly misses Santeria, a highly personalized form of belief.
But you've chosen your prophet already.
...pablo
pablo
Bonestud wrote:
> ... Also I'd like to point out that you have been at times
> rude when referring to a religion. ..
What are you talking about?
...pablo
pablo
vgdesign, @primenet.com wrote:
>
> I don't know much about what's happening in Columbia.
> You apparently don't know what's happening in Cuba.
I never said there aren't *any* pracitioners. But claiming the majority
of Cubans are into Santeria/Palo is like claiming all Haitians are into
Voodoo and all Spanish males are bullfighters. It's a stereotype, and
one not born out by any statistics.
I guess this group wants to accept some obscure mythology about a
secretive, mysterious culture as a given - thusly the true AfroLatin
stuff becomes more unaccessible to the ignorant outsider.
...pablo
pablo
"E. C. Ballard" wrote:
> ... Nor does
> having studied something intently necessarily clowd one's judgement. ..
Lo que me interesaria saber es cuales son los mecanismos formales que se
utilizan para estudiar la cultura cubana desde tal distancia, y
realmente establecer apsectos sociales con fiabilidad.
...pablo
Yambu1
>lisa
>
Yeah, but I repeat my question of yesterday: what is it about this religion
that is attracting such diverse people? What is it promising? How is it
adapting itself as it grows throughout the world? Who are its leading
spokespersons, and what are they saying? Is there a conscious evangelical push
going on? Just what are the agendas at these various worldwide conferences you
mentioned?
>
>- Mike Doran
pablo
Yambu1 wrote:
>
> > ... espouses a cosmology which can only be described as primitive ..
> I did. But what's missing is, I added "...(although no more primitive than
> Genesis, IMO)".
You called it "primitive", period. Blatant case of white master syndrome
calling African superstitions simple and primitive. "Book Genesis"? What
makes that more primitive than the rest of the Bible? I guess nailing
people to a cross is a highly civilized practise in your book?
You are such a hypocrite. Allegedly apologizing and finalizing a
discussion weeks ago to come back yelping and allow your little
bottled-up aggession to resurface in another topic, what a snivelling
and false impression you give.
And aas usual you can't own up to your initial comment. You regard
something as "primitive" (oh, yeah, like "The Book Genesis", whatever
that means, I guess the rest of them are 20th century science) and can't
even admit your faux pas.
...pablo
pablo
Eoghan wrote:
Eoghan,
you are a blatant liar that attempts to feebly attribute the following
things to me:
> ... not substantiated your prejudices...
Point me at *one* single prejudice I have voiced here. You are the only
one talking in abolutistic blanket terms, and your lecturing froma
position of ultimate authority is wearisome to read, if admittedly
informative.
> ... You claim
> that I am manipulating data and then make wild assertions of your own that
> my own experience and the work of many academicians and people in the
> press contradict.
I have not made any other assertions and extrapolated to mean anything.
You have failed to produca convincing data. You talk about Cuba, then
you switch to point out that having *12* STUDENTS in your class is an
indicator for a big resurgence of something. You really WANT to believe
it is the casde, for a 12 student class is something hardly
overwhelming, sorry, and the fact that student = believer speaks volumes
for your ability to separate formal research from subjectization of the
matter. behind that cademic mask, you are preachy and missionary and,
indeed, very religious.
> A very substantial and well informed youthful generation of believers in
> these traditions exist. They know the religious songs, have studied the
> liturgical languages and many have even made pilgrimages to the African
> sources of their specific traditions much as Christians and Jews visit
> Isreal and followers of Islam go to Mecca.
Are we talking millions, like Islam? Really? Is that what you are
claiming? That m,illions of Palo followers are now flying to Africa to
the origin of their religion? That would only show how pathetically they
try to make an organized religion out of something whose main spritual
merit is that it never tried to fail for that trap. It never treid to
organize itself, it always stayed basic and root-oriented. This
organization just shows how Westernized the model has become.
> .... That you
> would rather paint the whole phenomenon as disappearing superstition only
> shows that you are tied to the uninformed prejudices of an earlier
> generation.
I have never and not once called it superstition. You are being a
disgraceful liar, and in the manner of all frustrated missionaries, you
attempt to turn me into the enemy with constructions and downright lies.
You got to be very hysterical to read what you read into my messages.
> ... The fact is that we are witnessing what has been called the
> dissillusionment of society with science...
This is no news to anyone. Please stop thinking you know so much more
about *everything* that you need to take us to basics to remotely
understand where the riches of your spirit come from.
> ... You're entitled to view these traditions as archaic and
> anachronistic if you like...
Final construction and lie. This is pathetic of you.
I will not enterian any further dialogue with someone as unable to
maintain a cool head.
Yambu1
>
>You are such a hypocrite. Allegedly apologizing and finalizing a
>discussion weeks ago to come back yelping and allow your little
>bottled-up aggession to resurface in another topic, what a snivelling
>and false impression you give.
>
Is there a dermatologist in the house? We got a case of acutely thin skin over
here!
Heh, heh...
>
>- Mike Doran
borges
Just my 2 cents worth. I'm primarily a fly fisherman (who loves
cuban music (I'm of Cuban heritage.). I spent 2 weeks in Matanzas
province tarpon fishing in August. I made friends (easy to
do with the Cubans) with tons of
people in the Playa Giron, Jaguey Grande, Cienfuegos area. I asked
several people about the religion. Almost universally they told
me that it was primarily (but not exclusively a black Cuban thing)
and that only a very small proportion of the people practiced
it. They said if I wanted I could attend a ceremony but just was
unable to make it fit in on that trip.
Anyway, maybe the situation is different among the black people of
Habana? Among the whites and mulatos de Mantanzas and Cienfuegos,
I don't think so.
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
Eoghan
me and attribute statements to me that I have not made, such as describing
any Afro-diasporic religion as being rigid when I hardly went into any
specifics about the day to day practices of these religious traditions,
you are now lowering yourself to name calling and spiteful remarks. I will
bow out. I figure that anyone reading this string will be well able to
judge for themselves who has been polite and who has not.
As for the methods I use to do my research whether in English, Portuguese,
French, Spanish, or in Kikongo (I cannot read enough Yoruba to do any real
research in that language) I follow the basic premises behind what
professional academicians engaged in the social sciences of ethnology,
folklore and anthropology call "participant observation". That is, I go to
the places where people who are engaged in what I wish to study go, and
join them in their activities. It is a time honored method of research. It
is also supplimented by a great deal of reading in several languages and a
fair bit of correspondance with others both academics and priests of
various faiths.
Clearly it requires spending time and gaining the trust and confidence of
the people I am working with. I have to date done this sort of research in
the US in New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania, In Cuba I have worked in
Havana and on La Isla de Juventud and more briefly in Kingston, Jamaica. I
am fairly committed to a lot more travel to Cuba on a regular basis if for
no other reason than that my wife who is Cuban, insists on visiting home
as often as US regulations allow.
While I would not advise anyone to go seeking enlightenment over the web,
the internet has allowed me to make some very valuable contacts and
lasting friendships with members and priests of these traditions in parts
of the world that I have not yet been able to visit such as Argentina,
Uruguay, and Brazil.
Salamaleko,
Eoghan
pablo
Yambu1 wrote:
>
> Heh, heh, heh.....I LOOOOVE this guy!...
Keep your hands to yourself, though.
> ... We got a case of acutely thin skin over
> here!
Right, now try the humor tip. As I have stated before, I don't take BS
in real life or in the 'net.
I have made my points in this topic strongly, but always respectfully,
and have found myself blatantly misrepresented by the person gathering
so much sympathy and support. Which is totally fine with me, by the way,
but I find it just an interesting little group dynamic.
...pablo
pablo
Klooless .. wrote:
{.. wnat else did you expect with that id ..}
pablo
Eoghan wrote:
>
> Boy are you a piece of work Pablo. ..
Try to turn the tables around... too late.
You are and remain a liar.
You have willingly misconstructed my position, and have not found it
necessary at any point in time to refrain from such statements.
I challenge everybody to go back in this thread and see who started
misconstructing based on his prejudiced conceptions of what someone else
might be or think.
I'd be really interested in seing you speak or write Spanish, to check
how well you can really engage in those in-depth sociological field
studies you talk about.
That just for a start.
Your inability to factually analyze or reply to any of my points speaks
volume about your personal over-engagement on the issue, and your
inability to talk about it objectively when challenged in *one* specific
area. I never said everything you were saying were wrong, but you have
doubtlessly made some overstated claims.
Also, your contradicting portrayals of Santeria-Palo, where on one hand
you say you never made any strict claims, yet in your last message you
start portraying it as a growing organized religious movement, is some
what odd. If you truly know it, you know it would automatically die if
it tried to formally arrange itself as an organized religion. It can't.
The rules and meanings and traditions are highly personalized. Which to
me is what makes it so strong. And what makes it so wrong when people
who want to be followers get into it, for the concept of being a
follower, a passive entity that simply acts by rules spoken by someone
that "outranks" you, is totally foreign to the original nature of this.
The strength of it is that it creates a very personal and thus dirct
link between the physical, the *you*, and the metaphysical. Organized
religions hamper this feeling of immediacy by rules and hierarchies and
putting fellow humans between you and the deity.
...pablo
ze...@metro.net
Sounds alot like the rest of the world's religions. (except the music
is so much more interesting)
Zeno
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
>
> Yambu1 wrote:
>
> > ... Your facile comparisons
> > don't satisfy me.
>
> Oh, feeling confrontational again.
>
> Well, facile questions ("master, whgat is the meaning of life") usually
> seek for facile answers.
Master: An egg with two yolks.
Student: You mean all my efforts and trials are answered with just "An
egg with two yolks"? Can't be!
Master: You mean it's not?
--
"it ain't where you're from, it's where you're at" - Eric B. & Rakim ,
1980s or 1990s (but stolen from someone in New Orleans in the 70s or
before!)
"If the music grooves, it does not matter who is playing!" - Califa 1999
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
My Home Page is located at http://www.geocities.com/~dmreed/index.htm or
http://www.dmreed.com/index.htm and includes my musical autobiography
(containing audio files and photos of groups I have worked with from the
late 50s to the present). There are also rare 60s recordings by Carlos
Federico and 70s photos of Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo, and selected LP
and CD recordings. Also included is information about the
US-International Keyboard (WINDOWS 95/98) with a large printable
keyboard image.
ze...@metro.net
of Cubans are into Santeria/Palo is like claiming all Haitians are
into
Voodoo and all Spanish males are bullfighters. It's a stereotype, and
one not born out by any statistics.
I guess this group wants to accept some obscure mythology about a
secretive, mysterious culture as a given - thusly the true AfroLatin
stuff becomes more unaccessible to the ignorant outsider.
...pablo}
You mean to tell me not every single Cuban has great rhythm and can
play the congas. I'm shattered.
Zeno
ze...@metro.net
rum before drinking from the bottle? These are the things that for me
prove
that the African tradition is alive and well and also extremely
pervasive in
Cuba.
Curtis}
Superstitious vestiges do not a religion make. Depends on how you
define "African tradition" I guess.
Zeno
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
> I have made my points in this topic strongly, but always respectfully,
> and have found myself blatantly misrepresented by the person gathering
> so much sympathy and support. Which is totally fine with me, by the way,
> but I find it just an interesting little group dynamic.
>
recall someone taking my simple and straight forward question about
whether or not there were lyrics about machismo in Latin tunes and
turning it into some kind of attack on Latin culture and then the thread
degenerated into violence against women, statistics about violence in
the US and other countries, etc.
ze...@metro.net
>Christianity. Faith is faith.
"one excuse is as good as another..."
>Look no further as to why Westerners run in bunches to Buddhism of
>Hinduism pr the Krishnas, for that matter. Or Afronationalists >convert to Islam. It is a mix of self-search through theology and, in >the case of some AfroLatins, a quest for perceived authentic stuff >that contributes to a feeling of cultural identity.
In my neck of the woods there is quite a turning out for Paganism.
Some people even have Wicker furniture.
> I grew up in a highly supersticious household. Those superstitions >are all based on this stuff, and most are common along the Caribbean >area. That does not make me a santeria practitioner. These rites are >stuff people do merely for themselves as their own thing, it is >second nature, but claiming that is part of an organizaed religion >misses the point. My mother would be highly offended if she's told >she's part of an organized non-Christian religion. You go to church >for religion, but do some stuff to keep up a good relationship with >the house-spirits. It is definitely a small minoroty that makes a >religion out of the latter.
>...pablo
Some traditions simply become secular after so many years. Like why
alot of people refer to the US as a "christian" nation. Although these
assumptions have been coming into question in these PC/post-modern
times.
ze...@metro.net
"Nature" religions are big today and for good reason. As I mentioned,
Paganism in its various forms is attracting alot of new followers, at
least in California. Like "post-modernism" (disillusion with and
rejection of the modernist vision and its apparent conclusions) people
are tired of and disillusioned with some of the established religions
and seek "antithetical" and more lively alternatives. In the 60s the
psychedelic experience made Tibetan Buddhism relevant and attractive.
Zeitgeists!
Zeno
N PIERCE
w/out him.
Nina
Yambu1 <yam...@aol.com> wrote
> Heh, heh, heh.....I LOOOOVE this guy!.....heh, heh, heh...
> Is there a dermatologist in the house? We got a case of acutely thin skin
over
ze...@metro.net
>things does not entirely fulfill people.
And a (traditional) cultural void as well. Because of this Americans
(artists and others) are motivated to seek and invent. We have come up
with some pretty exciting contributions as a result, but the void
somehow remains, maybe because of so much diversity and lack of
agreement. Also because everything (cultural as well) all becomes part
of marketing. Very hard to get anything traditional established. It is
an interesting and very challenging context to exist in.
Zeno
ze...@metro.net
Wow Pablo. I didn't even catch that first time.
>You are such a hypocrite. Allegedly apologizing and finalizing a
>discussion weeks ago to come back yelping and allow your little
>bottled-up aggression to resurface in another topic, what a >snivelling and false impression you give.
Did I miss something? Which relevant thread was finalized weeks ago?
>And as usual you can't own up to your initial comment. You regard
>something as "primitive" (oh, yeah, like "The Book Genesis", whatever
>that means, I guess the rest of them are 20th century science) and >can't even admit your faux pas.
>...pablo
This thread is turning out to be what Nina was clamoring for afterall.
Zeno
Eoghan
copyright infringement) of the words from the new LVV song.
Eje o mi baba
Ochu obatala yemaya
Chango oggun oya
Pero los dueños son ifa
Y no hay más na'
Y de repente unos brujos congo
Nos llevaron para el monte
Y nos convirtieron en camaleones
En gavilanes, jutías y hurones
Y un iroco nos dió el hechizo
Aclarando lo sucedido
Era que los montes querían
Darnos como regalo
Un garabato pa' abrir caminos
Esos son palos
The first three lines are pure Yoruba and mention by name five of the
Orichas. The remainder makes reference to Congo religious traditions and
practices and ends with a reference to a garabato, a crooked stick which
is the symbol of Ellegua, the Oricha of the crossroads, the messanger to
the other Orichas, and the one who is said to open life's paths to fortune
and experience. The song is copyright 1999.
pablo
"Dennis M. Reed \"Califa\"" wrote:
>
> Gee, who would ever do that to anyone in the RMAL context? I seem to
> recall someone taking my simple and straight forward question about
> whether or not there were lyrics about machismo in Latin tunes and
> turning it into some kind of attack on Latin culture ...
I can't recall that exchange ever trespassing the line of civility, as
we had a cordial email exchange while publicly disagreeing over the
issue. That is possible. And I was not the only one disagreeing with
some of your remarks. The fact that more than one Latino in this
newsgroup took a certain amount of issue is indicative that something
about the remark itself was too much of a blanket statement.
In this particula thread, my only point was to object to the initial
impression that was raised: that the vast mkajority of Cubans are into
Santeria/Palo or the like. I do not think that is such a contentious
point, but Eoghan took it to mean that I was ashamed of the implication
pof backwardness santeria has in my cultural sphere -which is a silly
projection and, what's worse, a patronizing bunch of crap- and cojured
up visions of full planes flying over to African masses of Santeria
practitioners in some sort of organized movement.
Census figures in all Latin American countries bear out the fact that
people who claim to be into santeria as a religion are a minority,
typically in the range of 2-4% I indicated as a guess for Cuba. Eoghan
has been unable to substantiate his claims with any published figures
anywhere. The census data of the different countries are there to read.
The dark number of "people in the know" is obvisously higher, but it is
revealing those people do not view these practises as even remotely
conflicting with their offical affiliation to Christianity as a
religion. Religion is something organized, formalized.
And let's not forget those 2-4% include Indio manifestations of faith,
which have received, as usual, not even a token mention of attention in
this thread despite the fact they have been influential in the the
AfroLatin sphere as well.
...pablo
pablo
Eoghan wrote:
>
> Another example I just thought of.
Anothwer example of what, Eoghan? Of palo being a majorioty religion in
Cubaa? Because Van Van mentions some stuff about being turned into
chamaleons and chickenhawks? They also have a song called "El negro esta
cocinando", no doubt a powerful testament to the emergence of African
Haute Cusine in Cuba.
...pablo
pablo
ze...@metro.net wrote:
>
> .. And a (traditional) cultural void as well. Because of this Americans
> (artists and others) are motivated to seek and invent. ..
Which has some merit, but at times some foreign cultural elements are
mis-used in a self-serving way and without reverence. A Latino activist
friend of mine got into what he regards as Santeria (with Subday morning
gatherings and everything, I mean, how fake can you get) and promptly
tattooed himself an image of Shango, which no one in his right mind and
with true reverence for the Orishas would do. That does bother me.
Our culture is into short-cuts for everything, and people do not realize
it is a long ass apprenticeship one needs to truly be able to claim,
with some self-respect, that one is into Santeria. Way too many people
read to books about it and then think they're plugged into Eleggua or
something.
You said "Zeigeist" somewhere else, and to a certain degree it bothers
me to see ancestral rites be raped to become a manifestation of, yeah,
Zeitgesit and declare them a bargain used vehicle on the ride to some
self-search, and after 18 months the phase is over and the little altar
to Obatala is swept into the trash.
I see it happen way too often.
And believe me, I have *huge* respect for the forces of old. They can
really mess with people and are powerful. I have seen some stuff happen
that people would not believe. I would never playfully dabble around
with it. The reverence is often totally lacking.
...pablo
ze...@metro.net
>Fine, don't take my word for it. Go read Robert Farris Thompson's >"Face of the Gods"
That book, interesting as it is, seemed to me to be more of a stream
of conscious, free associative, confusing mish-mash of ideas and
general observations, more than any kind of clarification or academic
presentation. I did like it the way I like "Free Jazz".
>You need to put this in a larger perspective to understand or >appreciate it. The fact is that we are witnessing what has been >called the dissillusionment of society with science.
What we are actually witnessing is society's disillusionment (one "s")
with the misapplication of technology, but it seems you and the rest
of the folks who are so anxious to return to the Dark Ages want to
"throw the baby out with the bathwater" not making a distinction
between Science (a method for seeking truth) and Technology (its
application and manipulation often by greed and power politics).
>These traditional forms are often recognized by the medical >establishment as being efficacious.
I apologize for including you in those who long for the Dark Ages,
clearly you recognize the authority of science.
>Along with this, traditional religious beliefs and spiritual >technologies have gained new attention and many new and youthful
>followers from all walks of life and in many countries.
What exactly are "spiritual technologies"?
>The people who are involved with this may hardly be described as >luddites or ignorant.
> I will point out just a couple of contemporary groups and musicians >who are treating this subject in ways that clearly go beyond just a >nod to "dusty and quaint folklore" and which belie your previous >statement that references to these things are largely secular.
Personally I do not care what religious or cultural practices someone
likes anymore than I care what art or music they prefer, as long as
they do not manifest behavior which harms anything or impinges on my
own civil liberties. I do hope your apparent zealousness was just to
point out the facts of this interesting trend.
Zeno
ze...@metro.net
> I figure that anyone reading this string will be well able to
>judge for themselves who has been polite and who has not.
Pablo is passionate and fiery, it even effects his typing, but not his
heart. This kind of energy is acceptible here as it is in our music
and if I am not mistaken I'll bet there are a few Orichas (sic) who
can relate to it as well, and even if not, let's conjure one up.
Zeno
Eoghan
pablo
Eoghan wrote:
>
> And the Lord said "Let there be Usenet, and on the 11th day there were trolls."
You seem utterly unacquainted with Usenet. There is nothing about my
messages that is trollish.
You simply are unable to maintain a spirited discussion factual, and
have introduced the element of misconstruction and blind doctrine.
You're not a scientist, you're a fanatic.
...pablo
Nina
*settling in w/ a cup o'tea"
Nina
pablo <pa...@samerica.com> wrote
Yambu1
>I have made my points in this topic strongly, but always respectfully...
>
HOOT!
>...and have found myself blatantly misrepresented by the person gathering
>so much sympathy and support.
>
I would hold the self-pity, if I were you. We've seen it before.
>....Which is totally fine with me, by the way,
>but I find it just an interesting little group dynamic.
>
Poor guy. Think of this group dynamic:your arrogance gets tiresome and impedes
discussion. A case in point:
Around here Eoghan is respected for being the soul of propriety at all times.
His background and his knowledge of the subject matter is certainly more
impressive than yours. He went out of his way to keep this discussion civil and
on the issues, even apologising to you early on. Yet you managed to call him a
hypocrite and a liar.
BTW, I disagree with Zeno or anyone else that your behavior is acceptable. If
someone is acting the asshole, then he/she should be called one. Namecalling
has its place, but not every single time that someone disagrees with you.
Eoghan's reputation here will remain unblemished, in spite of you. So ask
yourself - where does this leave Pablo Sabroso in the eyes of others? Just a
little lower than he was yesterday, would be my guess.
>
>- Mike Doran
pablo
Yambu1 wrote:
>
> Around here Eoghan is respected for being the soul of propriety at all times.
Ever since he joined what, in September?
Then let me point you at some of his diatribes in his replies to me, and
then you go tell me where I incited these:
".. with all due respects to your wanting to appear modern .."
".. you as a colombiano are anxious not to appear backward .."
Both blatant prejudiced notions to start a discussion with, and then he
had the gall to claim
".. you cannot and have not substantiated your prejudices .."
".. Boy are you a piece of work Pablo .."
Obviosuly, you are being self-serving and lack any objectivity in the
matter, and your acting up as an impartial observer is a truly poor
acting job.
As to Eoghan, behind the academic facade -that by now has fallen has
fallen apart to reveal blatant indoctrination- a check of University of
Pennsylvannia reveals him as a student, and not as an expert researcher
he profuses to be. He has ways to go to understand scientific
methodology.
...pablo
Eoghan
will call you, not so much on taking brief remarks of mine out of context
to make me appear argumentative, which I am not, but for really stepping
over the line in trying to make me appear to have misrepresented myself. I
at no time claimed to have already received my doctorate. In fact in one
of my messages I noted an author/editor (Dr. Sandra Barnes) and indicated
that she is on my dissertation committee. Others on my committee include
Drs. Roger Abrahams (who has written extensively on Caribbean issues) and
David Hufford who has written on belief studies and who is also on the NIH
and the teaching staff at Hersey Medical as well as at the University of
Pennsylvania. I have discussed my research in informal settings a number
of times with authors such as Robert Ferris Thompson and Natalia Bolivar
Arosegui.
I have taught the occassional class at Penn and have been a staff member
here for 10 years having among other things coordinated both the
PreCollege Program and more recently the PreHealth and Special Sciences
Programs in Penn's College of General Studies. I teach the occassional
music student and have published in The Journal of American Folklore and
Penn's African Studies Center Journal.
This may not place me at the top of my profession, not that I ever claimed
to be, but I most certainly do understand scientific method and am well
aware of both its strengths and weaknesses. Lastly, for the record, both
implicit and explicit in my remarks about modernness and backwardness was
the position that these were unneccesary preoccupations on your part.
Now, this entire thread has wasted far too much of everyone else's
bandwidth, so if you feel the need for the last word go ahead, but don't
expect a reply from me.
pablo
Eoghan wrote:
>
> ... on taking brief remarks of mine ...
Brief, but very telling. If you can not understand those remarks made me
seeth, you have not an ounce of cultural sensitivity whatsoever. Those
were prejudiced remarks that just had one foundation: gratuitious
speculation on your side, and ultimately prejudice.
> .. to make me appear argumentative ..
It does not matter how you backtrack now, those were extremely
argumentative remarks, and in fact initiated the escalating animosity.
Throughout it all, I have emphasized, again and again, that I found
large portions of your messages very informative and interesting, and
disagreed on the nuance of "numbers". You lost it over that, and started
a campaign of blatant misconstruction.
Whether you're consitioned to reply the way, Pavlov conditioning like,
due to many discussions you have had in the past, I do not not, but for
the most part you wee not even remotely replying to anything I had said,
written or even hinted at. In your shoes, I would truly re-read what I
actually did write. Don't forget that like me or not I am a member of
one of the caribbean cultures you claim to be interested in, and
possibly one or the other scientific lesson can be learned from the
fruitlessness of the exchange. In case you are truly interested in that
aspect.
> .. over the line in trying to make me appear to have misrepresented myself...
You associated yourself with heads within your university and thusly
created the impression you *head* research teams. At least, that is the
impression I got from (a) your degree of academic arrogance and tendency
to talk down to people -but you might only do that to backward
Colombians, who knows- and (b) the way you mentioned your reaearch work.
As it is, your academic authority in this field, while no doubt
impressive, has not been put to academic test and cross-examination yet.
I do not doubt your credentials, and I say it again -given you a
courtesy you in turn have failed to demonstrate at every possible
opportunity- I have found very large parts of your messages very
valuable and informative, and will certainly continue to read them in
the future. My only beef was I thought you went a bit over-enthustastic
with your messages about it being a huge (& confusingly organized) mass
movement.
It is soldily based in our culture, but like so many traditions the ture
bearers of this folklore have to a large degree -and I did repeatedly
say *unfortunately* in my messages- passed away without passing on the
legacy.
You never went into the charlatenery and lack of authenticity many
santeria associations have in the US, where it is degreaded to a hobby.
But I know you know that effect exists. Only it would not serve your
point to admit to it. It is the self-serving attitude of your messages
that has bothered me the most about this exchange - your clumsy
inclusions of prejudice and patronizing I live often enough in US
society, and merely make me raise an amused eyebrow.
> ... I most certainly do understand scientific method and am well
> aware of both its strengths and weaknesses ...
None of your core statements about numbers and statistics were
substantiated by any of this. They were based on your pure and
unadulterated subjective perception. It doesn't get more un-scientific
than that. You are the Heisenberg paradox of your own research, way too
close to the subject and thus influencing your obervations. I repeat:
the numbers are well documented, and you should know where to go access
them. You willingly chose to make very generic terms and ignore the
actual data.
Despite the deplorable tactics you have, maybe unwittingly, used, I have
enjoyed large bits and pieces of your instructive messages, even though
I disagree with your claim about how large said social phenomenon is. It
will always remains a cult for individualists, and the people currently
on a search mission for metaphsyics are by nature followers.
...pablo
ze...@metro.net
Orichas. The remainder makes reference to Congo religious traditions
and
practices and ends with a reference to a garabato, a crooked stick
which
is the symbol of Ellegua, the Oricha of the crossroads, the messanger
to
the other Orichas, and the one who is said to open life's paths to
fortune
and experience. The song is copyright 1999.
Eoghan}
I just noticed something I want to share, Cuban music has got good
rhythm also and lots of people like to dance to it.
Zeno
Bonestud
>of Cubans are into Santeria/Palo is like claiming all Haitians are into
>Voodoo and all Spanish males are bullfighters. It's a stereotype, and
>one not born out by any statistics.
Maybe not a majority but a definite plurality.
>I guess this group wants to accept some obscure mythology about a
>secretive, mysterious culture as a given - thusly the true AfroLatin
>stuff becomes more unaccessible to the ignorant outsider.
Well I hate to break the news but the ignorant outsider is you. I certainly
have researched the religion enough to know that it isn't just an "obscure
mythology about a secretive, mysterious culture." Like I said, you're rude and
it's showing.
Curtis
Bonestud
Sorry but I have to disagree. You come across as very disrespectful to the
religion.
Curtis
pablo
Bonestud wrote:
> ... You come across as very disrespectful to the
> religion.
That is nonsense. Show me *one* instance. Go back and check. I have lots
of respect for Santeria-Palo. You must have been reading something I
have not written, or accepting for a given I did write anywhere it was
"primitive" - it certainly was *not* me.
...pablo
pablo
Bonestud wrote:
>
> >I guess this group wants to accept some obscure mythology about a
> >secretive, mysterious culture as a given - thusly the true AfroLatin
> >stuff becomes more unaccessible to the ignorant outsider.
>
> Well I hate to break the news but the ignorant outsider is you. I certainly
> have researched the religion enough to know that it isn't just an "obscure
> mythology about a secretive, mysterious culture." Like I said, you're rude and
> it's showing.
Your ability to dissectr grammatical constructs is about the only thing
that shows. By not means did the secretive and mysterious part have
anything to do with religion, but rather with the mythologizastion of
Latino *culture* as a whole the claiming Santeria-Palo permeates it to
every corner leads.
Is that simple enough for you?
The only thing rude is the willingness to read what no one has written
you bring to the table.
Chill.
...pablo
Wallice
> Ah.... now I remember why I still read this NG.
Ah.... and now I remember why I skip so many posts....
--
Saludos,
Wallice
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What's happening in Dallas, you asked?
http://www.arsnova1.com
The Texas Afro-latin Music Connection
Wallice
You wouldn't think that we could extract some testosterone, bottle it
and sell it, would you?
Nawh.... I didn't think so. :-P
Wallice
> Yeah, but I repeat my question of yesterday: what is it about this religion
> that is attracting such diverse people?
Yambu:
I don't think this is the only belief system attracting a huge, diverse
crop of people searching for answers about "It." I believe that although
it doesn't look like it, many more people are turning to the spiritual
search. Santeria, IMO, just happens to be one of the "paths." (and the
only one with clave!)
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
>
> "Dennis M. Reed \"Califa\"" wrote:
> >
> > Gee, who would ever do that to anyone in the RMAL context? I seem to
> > recall someone taking my simple and straight forward question about
> > whether or not there were lyrics about machismo in Latin tunes and
> > turning it into some kind of attack on Latin culture ...
>
> I can't recall that exchange ever trespassing the line of civility, as
> we had a cordial email exchange while publicly disagreeing over the
> issue. That is possible. And I was not the only one disagreeing with
> some of your remarks. The fact that more than one Latino in this
> newsgroup took a certain amount of issue is indicative that something
> about the remark itself was too much of a blanket statement.
I agree about our cordial personal emails and expect they will remain
that way.
However, I still contend that what you call a blanket statement was a
simple specific question with no overt or covert meanings or suggestions
or perceptions or agendas. It was and still is a simple question (no
matter how many chose to read more into it). If I had asked whether or
not there are any blues lyrics about a canary which died, it would not
(probably) have gotten such an interpretation regarding blues singers or
canaries or abuse of canaries! Actually, no one actually replied to the
original question directly (if I recall correctly).
--
"it ain't where you're from, it's where you're at" - Eric B. & Rakim ,
1980s or 1990s (but stolen from someone in New Orleans in the 70s or
before!)
"If the music grooves, it does not matter who is playing!" - Califa 1999
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
My Home Page is located at http://www.geocities.com/~dmreed/index.htm or
http://www.dmreed.com/index.htm and includes my musical autobiography
(containing audio files and photos of groups I have worked with from the
late 50s to the present). There are also rare 60s recordings by Carlos
Federico and 70s photos of Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo, and selected LP
and CD recordings. Also included is information about the
US-International Keyboard (WINDOWS 95/98) with a large printable
keyboard image.
Bonestud
>of respect for Santeria-Palo
Whoa there Tiger, I said you come across as disrespectful. Read what I write
please, not what you would like me to say in order to prolong this
disagreement.
Curtis
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
>
> Ah.... now I remember why I still read this NG.
> Nina
> pablo <pa...@samerica.com> wrote
> Because Van Van mentions some stuff about being turned into
> > chamaleons and chickenhawks? They also have a song called "El negro esta
> > cocinando", no doubt a powerful testament to the emergence of African
> > Haute Cusine in Cuba.
What are the rest of the lyrics about? As it stands alone, it might
simply mean "the man is cooking".
Bonestud
Haha. This is the funniest thing to come out of this thread!
>but rather with the mythologizastion of
>Latino *culture* as a whole the claiming Santeria-Palo permeates it to
>every corner leads.
Oh. . . .OK.
>The only thing rude is the willingness to read what no one has written
>you bring to the table.
Man, I must be really bad at my dissection of grammatical constructs because by
not means do I have a clue what that says. Hold on let me diagram the sentence
and see what I come up with. . . . yeah still no clue.
Curtis
pablo
Bonestud wrote:
>
> >That is nonsense. Show me *one* instance. Go back and check. I have lots
> >of respect for Santeria-Palo
>
> Whoa there Tiger, I said you come across as disrespectful.
No, You said repeatedly I disrespected the religion. Quote: ".. You come
across as very disrespectful to the
religion .." and ".. you have been at times rude when referring to a
religion .."
As you find yourself unabkle to substantiate your actual claims, now you
come up with something else.
Well, you come across as incoherent, and making up utterly constructed
accusations.
> ... Read what I write
> please ..
I quoted it back to you.
Sorry you seem so unable to recall what you write, a simple apology
would have spared you the public embarassment.
...pablo
pablo
Bonestud wrote:
> . . . yeah still no clue.
No kidding.
...pablo
pablo
Eoghan wrote:
>
> Eoghan Ballard
> Center for Folklore & Ethnology
> University of Pennsylvania
One thing strikes me as somewhat peculiar and even comical. For all the
prufused flack that I do not take Santeria seriously -which is blatant
lie, I challenge anyone to find it anywhere-, the defneder of the claim
that it is a major organized religion signs from the "Center for
Folklore & Ethnology" - and leaves me wondering whether said center also
does research on Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam etc; or whether this is some
paradox atr the very core of the matter.
The center for "Folklore" is in charge of Santeria and Palo. I do detect
a certain categorization right there.
Personally, I do not agree with it, but I wonder how Eoghan can explain
that apparent contradiction, and how he feels about ultimately
supporting an insitution that by its very hierachical organization
claims something he believes in falls under folklore.
...pablo
pablo
"Dennis M. Reed \"Califa\"" wrote:
>
> What are the rest of the lyrics about? As it stands alone, it might
> simply mean "the man is cooking".
Please, by now we have established everything Los van Van says has a
much grander socio-political and metaphysical meaning. It's never just
wordplay.
...pablo
Steve Roitstein
> Nina wrote:
> > Ah.... now I remember why I still read this NG.
>
> Ah.... and now I remember why I skip so many posts....
Ditto.
--
Steve Roitstein
Riot Music, Miami
st...@riotmusic.com
pablo
"Dennis M. Reed \"Califa\"" wrote:
>
> What? It might not simply mean "the man is cooking"?
Dennis - I was being sarcastic.
...pablo
pablo
Yambu1 wrote:
>
> Wow, you mean you really ran a background check on this guy today?
The concept of researching something might be totally alien to you, I
understand. Checking out a website hardly qualifies as "background
check".
> ... Don't you think that's a bit obsessive?
I'll take you as an authority on obsession. It is quete obvious you're
just itching for opportunites to cheerlead against me.
Not only are you boring, by now you are predictable.
> The guy cleans your clock fair and square...
I doubt I can take your score seriosuly. Personally, I'd be ashamed to
have a loser like you in my corner.
You're just being a pest, and you have not contributed a single
inteligent line to the actual topic.
>... Lemme outa' here.
Please, do us the fucking favor, and shut the door when you're out.
Somebody open the windows then.
Ah, relief.
...pablo
pablo
"Dennis M. Reed \"Califa\"" wrote:
>
> ok but what are the lyrics about?
The lyrics are totally silly stuff. Rum & CocoCola level stuff. You know
I'd translate if it was worth it. Indeed, it's "the negro is cooking",
but note negro doesn't have a negative connotation in Spanish.
...pablo
kaysee
to its topic of origen, the music!
kaysee
(good luck . . .. )
ze...@metro.net wrote in message <380E43...@metro.net>...
pablo
"Dennis M. Reed \"Califa\"" wrote:
> ..
> And I used to like rum and Coca Cola!
"Used to like" are dangerous words to use. :-) I have never taken sodas
well, I always get a monumental hickup. Same with beer.
...pablo
pablo
Bonestud wrote:
>
> >No, You said repeatedly I disrespected the religion. Quote: ".. You come
> >across as very disrespectful to the
> >religion .." and ".. you have been at times rude when referring to a
> >religion .."
>
> Exactly. I said "You come across. . . " I didn't say "You disrespect. . . "
> Please read the exact words I write. I chose them for a reason.
"You come across as disrespectful to a religion" does not entail
disrespect for the religion?
Your agrument is getting pathetically convoluted. Figure out what you're
saying.
In any case, intellectual disrespect for you certainly does not lack a
solid and factual foundation considering the idiotic point you're trying
to make.
...pablo
Stan Ginn
a religion is that the same could be said of most Christians. How many
practicing Christians really know the bible well? A lot of them go to
church every now and then. There are varying degrees of knowlege among
the practitioners of any religion. The references to these subconscious
rituals reminds of stories I've heard of Irishmen who claim that they
have left the Catholic faith, but still cross themselves when they pass
a church. Those subconscious behaviors show how deep those roots are.
It's similar to the way you can react against a belief system without
ever leaving its paradigm. (Sorry for the use of an Eddie word)
Stan
ze...@metro.net wrote:
>
> {For instance, how many times have you seen someone pour of the first
> swig of
> rum before drinking from the bottle? These are the things that for me
> prove
> that the African tradition is alive and well and also extremely
> pervasive in
> Cuba.
>
> Curtis}
>
> Superstitious vestiges do not a religion make. Depends on how you
> define "African tradition" I guess.
> Zeno
--
http://www.jps.net/stanginn