CONGA player research
Alex Pertout
Hi, I am conducting research on influential conga players and I was wondering if people on the list would drop me a line answering a couple of questions:
1. Favourite conga player / players
2. Favourite conga solo / or solos
please specify: [conga player|song|artist|record]
Thank you so much.
Greetings from Melbourne, Australia
ALEX PERTOUT
percussionist composer & educator
http://www.netspace.net.au/~pertout
Matthew Dubuque
Without a doubt, that would have to be Armando Peraza, the greatest
conga player who ever lived.
Two very quick reasons (of many):
1. Nobody ever obtained a higher pitched slap than Armando.
2. Nobody ever played faster than Armando at the end of Promise of a
Fisherman. It's a buzz roll, a specific term that snare drummers know.
It's faster than "the Secret Hand". And besides, Changuito knows that
Armando was doing it in the 50s only with a SLAP at the end, which
sounds so much cooler....
Those are just two quick reasons. There's lot's more.
Musically,
Matthew
check out my advanced bongo tutorials at
http://www.picadillo.com/matthew
Matthew Dubuque
You bet.
Armando never loses his MUSICALITY.
That's on the Borboleta CD, the Santana CD after Caravanserai.
Stan Ginn
>
>
> 2. Nobody ever played faster than Armando at the end of Promise of a
> Fisherman. It's a buzz roll, a specific term that snare drummers know.
>
And obviously one that you do not. I haven't heard the recording (can't
really stomach Carlos no matter how great his bands sometimes are), but
I seriously doubt that Armando was pressing his hands into the head to
get multiple bounce strokes with each wrist motion. I bet he was just
playing an incredibly fast single stroke roll, completely different
technique achieved in a very different way.
Also, I've always been somewhat confused as to exactly what the term
"mano secreta" was refering to, but I don't think that it is the double
stroke roll that Giovanni has developed, especially since I've never
seen Changuito use that. I think that the mano secreta is the "heel toe"
motion that the two of them seem to have improved upon.
Stan
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
Additionly, I always preferred Armando's solos to the others back in the
60s and 70s because of his phrasing, i.e., if the entire band were to stop,
dancers could continue to dance because he always returned to a
recognizable pattern between the variations.
Matthew Dubuque wrote:
> Alex-
>
> Without a doubt, that would have to be Armando Peraza, the greatest
> conga player who ever lived.
>
> Two very quick reasons (of many):
>
> 1. Nobody ever obtained a higher pitched slap than Armando.
>
> 2. Nobody ever played faster than Armando at the end of Promise of a
> Fisherman. It's a buzz roll, a specific term that snare drummers know.
>
> It's faster than "the Secret Hand". And besides, Changuito knows that
> Armando was doing it in the 50s only with a SLAP at the end, which
> sounds so much cooler....
>
> Those are just two quick reasons. There's lot's more.
>
> Musically,
>
> Matthew
>
> check out my advanced bongo tutorials at
> http://www.picadillo.com/matthew
--
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
My Home Page, last updated 10/21/98, includes my musical autobiography
(which includes many audio files of groups I worked with beginning in
the 1960s including rare recordings by Carlos Federico and early photos
including Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo; 1998 photos of Willie Colón)
and information regarding the PC WIN95/98/3.0?/3.1? US-International
Keyboard with a new large printable U.S.International Keyboard image:
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Bayou/1940
Rog
>Alex-
>
>Without a doubt, that would have to be Armando Peraza, the greatest
>conga player who ever lived.
>
Better than Giovanni Hidalgo? I find that difficult to believe. Not trying to take props away from anyone, Im just
so blown away by Giovanni every time I hear him...
peace,
Rog
http://members.xoom.com/coolgrooves
(Remove NOSPAM from e-mail address to reply)
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
Rog wrote:
--
Edward-Yemíl Rosario
<per...@netspace.net.au> wrote:
>To The Afro-Latin Newsgroup:
>
>Hi, I am conducting research on influential conga players and I was
>wondering if people on the list would drop me a line answering a couple
>of questions:
>
>1. Favourite conga player / players
<snip>
Contrary to what some in this ng have expressed, I think that Gio is
by far a monster on the conga. Yes, he can play fast and loose, and
that's what crowds often want to see and hear: the pyrotechnics. OTOH,
I have seen Gio play with a rarely heard feel for the nuances of
drumming, ranging from a soft, enticing finger roll to a full blown
roar in the span of seconds. I also saw him play clave with one hand
while doing some completely different shit with the other, stuff that
I had thought impossible.Gio is truly a master of the drum. Add to
this the fact that he's still very young, his intimacy with the
complexities of Jazz composition, as well as an iron grip on the
foundations, and you have THE prototypical monster. Gio is an old soul
on the drums, man.
>2. Favourite conga solo / or solos
>please specify: [conga player|song|artist|record]
<snip>
Some of the stuff I heard on the "drum" side of the Mongo "Up from the
Roots" album (Atlantic) was the best I ever heard recorded. Not only
was the drumming supernatural (the Orishas were in that studio, that
session), but the technical/engineering aspect of the recording was
the best. You could close your eyes and swear that you were there. You
could hear all the little things that bring a recording to life. My
memory fails me, but some of the guys laying down the Law were
Collazo, Mongo, et al. caballos all.
I liked Tata Güines' stuff on Tipica 73's "Intercultural..." something
or other. It's the album (available on CD) where Cuban and NYC artists
got together in the late 70s to record some serious shit. Tata's intro
on one of the records (Fiesta de Tambores?) is a tremendous display of
sense of space and rhytmic mastery.
Patato is one of my favorites because he was able to so deftly fit in
with Jazz players. His work with Hubbard on "Black Angel" (I forget
the label, it was BC -- before Creed Taylor) was exemplary even though
he doesn't stretch out on any of the cuts! That's the genius of
Patato, he shines even in the background. I like the school of
drumming exemplified by Patato: melodious, subtle, pushing the
dynamics of the drum in a given context. Sort of like the Philly Jo
Jones of the congas.
I also like Barretto because I feel he created a model for later
congas players to emulate. Not only is Barretto a great player
technically, he has also composed, arranged, and nutured many artists
who have gone on to become successful themselves. Barretto is the
consumate musician: innovative (remember the "Other Road," the great.
great stuff he did on "Ban Ban Quere"?), conversant in a wide range of
musical idioms, a perfectionist ( Over the years, I have seen Barretto
play at concert halls, on the streets of El Barrio, in clubs, in
different countries, and he has always presented a well-prepared band
that swung. I can't say this for many Latino musicians. So, I love
Barretto not only for his drumming, but also for his musicianship. My
favorite Barretto solo? That's a hard one, but if I had to pick, it
would be a run-off between "Que Viva La Musica" (form the album of the
same name) and his solo on "Abdijan" ("Head Sounds").
Peace Out,
Edward-Yemíl Rosario
New York University
"I have a problem with an institution such as the independent
counsel that has no real accountability, that goes on and on
like Tennyson's brook, without end and with an open-ended
checkbook."
- Henry Hyde in defense of Oliver North
Rog
frantically:
>On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 06:10:59 +1100, Alex Pertout
><per...@netspace.net.au> wrote:
>
>>To The Afro-Latin Newsgroup:
>>
>>Hi, I am conducting research on influential conga players and I was
>>wondering if people on the list would drop me a line answering a couple
>>of questions:
>>
>>1. Favourite conga player / players
><snip>
>
>Contrary to what some in this ng have expressed, I think that Gio is
>by far a monster on the conga. Yes, he can play fast and loose, and
>that's what crowds often want to see and hear: the pyrotechnics. OTOH,
>I have seen Gio play with a rarely heard feel for the nuances of
>drumming, ranging from a soft, enticing finger roll to a full blown
>roar in the span of seconds. I also saw him play clave with one hand
>while doing some completely different shit with the other, stuff that
>I had thought impossible.Gio is truly a master of the drum. Add to
>this the fact that he's still very young, his intimacy with the
>complexities of Jazz composition, as well as an iron grip on the
>foundations, and you have THE prototypical monster. Gio is an old soul
>on the drums, man.
Man, thats what Im screaming, from way over here!
Songo Man
motion that the two of them seem to have improved upon.
>>
I think that's all it is, too.
songoman
Wallice
> conga player who ever lived.
Gee, what a surprise! "the greatest
conga player who ever lived." according to whom?
Wallice
Gandulla
es mucho mejor que Armando Peraza y tres tumbadores juntos. Este muchacho
Dubuque parece que solo le da credito a Armando Peraza y Arsenio Rodrigues!
Armando y Arsenio son tremendos musicos pero tambien hay que darle credito a
otros musicos que han hecho tanto o mas que estos dos senores.
Stan Ginn
Gandulla wrote:
>
> ArmandoPeraza tremendo percusionista, pero Giovanni Hidalgo con la mano derecha
> es mucho mejor que Armando Peraza y tres tumbadores juntos.
And that's saying a lot since Giovanni is left handed.
Stan
Gandulla
Brain...@webtv.net
I enjoyed your post, and I must say, my Spanish skills are improving....
So to paraphrase, you're basically saying that Armando is a better
player "hands down"?
Bonglatto
"How come Superman can stop bullets with his chest but always ducked
when someone threw a gun at him?"
Brain...@webtv.net
Does this mean that when you come out to the Bay Area you will be
informing Armando that he is incapable of double-stroke rolls, triplet
rolls, and buzz rolls?
Bonglatto
"Why is it when a door is open it's ajar, but when a jar is open it's
not a door?"
Stan Ginn
what he's talking about. I really doubt that it will come up ;-)
Stan
Brain...@webtv.net
I'm not sure that my previous post made it to the NG, so at the risk of
being repetitive, here goes:
Alex, I'm willing to debate the relative merits of Armando vs.
Giovanni's conga playing on ANY rational, objective measure (velocity of
notes, range of tones from the drums, Grammys won, records sold,
versatility, respect of peers or WHATEVER), but for this post I'd like
to appeal to your judgment as a trap drummer.
For starters, Armando was sorry that he missed you at the last NAMM
convention. This is a forum where Armando repeatedly gets the respect
he deserves viz a viz Giovanni.
Alex, let's talk about expert opinions here. What do the world's
greatest trap drummers say?
Why did Terry Bozzio select Armando over Giovanni as his first choice to
do a collaboration video with? Is Bozzio a fool?
How about Billy Cobham? Can he play drums? Did Giovanni ever inspire
Cobham to record a tune? "This One's For You, Armando" is an
extraordinary cut off of Cobham's "Picture This" album in which Cobham
attempts to capture Armando's conga voice on his tenor toms at the end.
The German import CD with Cobham, McLaughlin, and Armando playing LIVE
in Chicago is extraordinary and historic. It leaves Giovanni in the
dust.
Cobham can PLAY. Look him up. Ask him to compare the two.
How about Tony Williams, probably Miles Davis' favorite drummer? Could
he play? Did he know anything about polyryhthms?
Man, Tony and Armando were so close, they learned so much from each
other. God bless Tony Williams wherever he is, but man he KNEW. This
revisionist baloney is unbelievable.
These are some of the heaviest cats who ever played the drums. Were
they fooled? Not in your life.
How about Joe Morello? Is he a mediocre player? Remember Armando
played quite a bit with Brubeck in the early l950s. Ask Joe Morello.
He knows. Not even close.
How about Max Roach? A clueless drummer? Not hardly. Who's that
giving Max Roach a clinic on how to play in six on Randy Weston's Uhuru
album? Get real. Ask the PROS, the legends.
Dennis Chambers. He would never tell you that Giovanni was clearly
superior. Does he know anything at all?
Ask Ndugu Chancler. He recorded with Miles Davis at 18 years old. Not
even close.
Ask Louis Bellson. He's around.
Ask the people that really know, the top players in the world. Don't
rely on the opinion of armchair critics. Listen to people who have
given their LIFE to the drums, man.
It's not how much cocaine you use. It's how you move the people.
Musically,
Matthew
Stan Ginn
Brain...@webtv.net wrote:
>
> Alex-
>
> I'm not sure that my previous post made it to the NG, so at the risk of
> being repetitive, here goes:
>
> Alex, I'm willing to debate the relative merits of Armando vs.
> Giovanni's conga playing on ANY rational, objective measure (velocity of
> notes, range of tones from the drums, Grammys won, records sold,
> versatility, respect of peers or WHATEVER), but for this post I'd like
> to appeal to your judgment as a trap drummer.
>
You? Repetitive? My question is this, who was debating?
Stan
Orlando Fiol
Brain...@webtv.net wrote in article
<961-363...@newsd-154.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
> Stan-
>
> Does this mean that when you come out to the Bay Area you will be
> informing Armando that he is incapable of double-stroke rolls, triplet
> rolls, and buzz rolls?
>
> Bonglatto
double or viseversa?
Orlando
Orlando Fiol
Frankly, I could see how all the jazz drummers you cited would prefer
Armando over Giovani and I myself would probably agree that his style is
better suited towards latin jazz of the older style than Giovani's style
is. But, one cannot deny Giovani's accomplishments in the field of conga
playing. He is the Zakir Husein of the conga. He has done things on the
drum that no one had done before. He also can play a mean simpledimple
rumba and even tipico style too, which is more than i can say for some of
the upstarts trying to imitate him. Now, some folks might find his playing
divoid of "feeling" whatever that is, as some folks might find Zakir-ji's
playing too loaded with showy gimics and the like. But, these two guys are
real virtuosi in every sense of the word. While some people might prefer
more sedate or tasteful playing like that of say Armando or Tata Guinez or
Ustad Ala Rakha, no one, even Ustad Ala Rakha or Tata Guinez, would deny
the immense contributions Giovani has made to conga playing.
Peace,
Orlando
Orlando Fiol
It's great to hear the voice of an obviously learned conguero speaking up
for objectivity when debates get heated. To my knowledge, a buzz roll is
impossible to do on the conga because the fingers of the hand cannot create
the kind of vibrations that a stick can on a snare drum when pressed into
the head. As for the confusion of the mano secreta, I think that Giovani
developed the true double stroke roll because it sounds louder. I, myself,
use it more and more often these days when I don't need a lot of speed.
But, when I need awsome speed, I revert back to the heel-toe method that
changuito and Giovani use-among others.
Peace,
Orlando
Orlando Fiol
I have to disagree with you here about Ray barreto. I know the guy
somewhat; he's a very nice guy and he has definitely brought a lot of
notoriety to latin music and latin jazz. He's been at the forefront of
most Newyorican latin music, from the Bugalu to the funk experiments of the
seventies, and earlier with his latin jazz and even charanga stuff. But,
and here's the but, I don't think he is that accomplished of a conga player
and I will be very specific. From his playing, I don't detect a knowledge
of rumba, which is essential to good conga playing, of Cuban folkloric
rhythms either bembe or bata or palo, or Puerto Rican bomba and plena
rhythms. The bomba and plena are kinda optional as far as conguero
crudentials, since those idioms aren't meant to be played on congas, but
the Cuban stuff is absolutely essential for anyone going to call
him/herself a conguero. Nonetheless, I've seen Ray really turn it out with
a great band and a lot of positive and exciting energy on stage, in small
clubs, and large stadiums. But, his tumbao is peculiarly sloppy, lacking
in even the most basic techniques. It wasn't always this way; it has
indeed deteriorated over the years. But even in his prime, he was not
really the most knowledgeable player around. Now, I usually don't like to
post comments that anyone could take as being negative against our fellow
musicians because we're all in this boat together and we all help the scene
somehow. I just don't want up and coming congueros learning from sources
that aren't very knowledgeable if it's knowledge that they want. If
someone wants to learn how to be a soulful player and a showman, then a
look at Barreto's work would be useful, but if someone wants to learn the
true grace, cadence and art of specifically Cuban conga playing, Barreto
wouldn't, IMO, have much to offer.
Peace,
Orlando
Edward-Yemíl Rosario
wrote:
>Dear Ed,
>
>I have to disagree with you here about Ray barreto. I know the guy
>somewhat; he's a very nice guy and he has definitely brought a lot of
>notoriety to latin music and latin jazz. He's been at the forefront of
>most Newyorican latin music, from the Bugalu to the funk experiments of the
>seventies, and earlier with his latin jazz and even charanga stuff. But,
>and here's the but, I don't think he is that accomplished of a conga player
>and I will be very specific.
<snip>
I also don't think he's all that great. what I said was that he's one
of my favorites for EVERYTHING he has bought to the table.
> From his playing, I don't detect a knowledge
>of rumba, which is essential to good conga playing, of Cuban folkloric
>rhythms either bembe or bata or palo, or Puerto Rican bomba and plena
>rhythms. The bomba and plena are kinda optional as far as conguero
>crudentials, since those idioms aren't meant to be played on congas, but
>the Cuban stuff is absolutely essential for anyone going to call
>him/herself a conguero. Nonetheless, I've seen Ray really turn it out with
>a great band and a lot of positive and exciting energy on stage, in small
>clubs, and large stadiums. But, his tumbao is peculiarly sloppy, lacking
>in even the most basic techniques.
<snip>
I always got the sense that Ray B's stuff was a little "off" somewhat
like acomedian whose trademark is always missing a beat (pun not
intended). However, THAT'S what I LIKED about Ray B: he was always a
split second off, a little "sloppy." there's a lot space in his tumbao
and that has always held an attraction for me. Remember, Ray began
playing a a later age and under a different context than most other
congeros. I'm thankful for the that!! I got the same sense form
listening to Trane, even when he was doing the ballads: he was always
a little "off."
>It wasn't always this way; it has
>indeed deteriorated over the years. But even in his prime, he was not
>really the most knowledgeable player around.
<snip>
I beg to differ, I think that Ray B is most knowledgeable just not in
the areas you would deem necessary for the prototypical conga player.
His reference points atre quite different, but his knowl;edge of the
Jazz idiom is very deep.
>Now, I usually don't like to
>post comments that anyone could take as being negative against our fellow
>musicians because we're all in this boat together and we all help the scene
>somehow. I just don't want up and coming congueros learning from sources
>that aren't very knowledgeable if it's knowledge that they want. If
>someone wants to learn how to be a soulful player and a showman,
<snip>
....or composer, arranger, innovator, band leader, experimentor...
>then a
>look at Barreto's work would be useful, but if someone wants to learn the
>true grace, cadence and art of specifically Cuban conga playing, Barreto
>wouldn't, IMO, have much to offer.
<snip>
Good for you.
Brain...@webtv.net
Do you know Zakir? Armando has asked me to obtain Zakir's perspective
on how Armando compares with other players of today.
Just as Arturo will be a great judge on who kicks butt playing with
Arsenio's old band, Zakir is precisely the person who could truly inform
this discussion. Indeed, he's the fellow that taught Giovanni his
phenomenal heel-toe technique.
Musically,
Matthew
PS: A triplet roll is three strokes on the left hand followed by three
strokes on the right hand. Repeat.
Matthew Dubuque
Your points are very well stated, but I do need to differentiate myself
from them to some extent.
I'm reluctant to pigeonhole Armando as an "old school" conga player.
Orlando, one of my favorite albums is "Amandla" by Miles Davis. This is
one of Miles' last albums, but it was way ahead of its time.
Miles was chronologically old when he put this album out, but it is not
"old school".
My point is that Miles in his autobiography basically says that Tony
Williams is his favorite drummer. And Tony and Armando were quite
close. Always innovating.
Orlando, what about Chucho Valdes? I don't think he's old school, he's
hipper than most Americans.
When Armando plays with Chucho, it lifts the entire band. Chucho isn't
doing it to be nice. He adores Armando's playing and it contributes to
the music.
Additionally, I wouldn't call Terry Bozzio old school. Or Dennis
Chambers.
Respectfully,
Matthew
Yep! Check out my advanced bongo tutorials at
http://www.picadillo.com/matthew
Matthew Dubuque
Also, for the record, Armando does not deny (at all) the enormous
contribution that Giovanni has made to conga playing.
Matthew Dubuque
I think this is an appropriate point to mention that last week Armando
went ballistic when I showed him the liner notes on the El Sonido Nuevo
(Eddie Palmieri and Cal Tjader) CD stating that Ray Barretto has the
conga solo on Los Bandidos rather than Armando.
FWIW, when Max Salazar added these bonus tracks to the CD, he did have
in his possession the original vinyl liner notes of "Along Comes Cal"
which clearly state that it was Armando.....
And it sure doesn't sound like Barretto.
Armando was STEAMED!
It all seems so systematic sometimes, the rewriting of history.
Musically,
Matthew Dubuque
One thing I really enjoy about his playing is the fire. If a fellow can
prove to me that there really are firecrackers going off under his
chair, I'll gladly give him credit for being deeply inspired.
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
they were playing in the traditional manner before all the new
technology was available. The good ones have continued to be innovative
and to explore new techniques and new technologies and continue to
evolve personally and musically.
> Matthew
>
> Yep! Check out my advanced bongo tutorials at
> http://www.picadillo.com/matthew
--
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
My Home Page, last updated 10/28/98, includes my musical autobiography
(which includes many audio files of groups I worked with beginning in
the 1960s including rare recordings by Carlos Federico and early photos
including Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo; 1998 photos of Willie Colón)
and information regarding the PC WIN95/98/3.0?/3.1? US-International
Keyboard with a new large printable U.S.International Keyboard image:
http://www.dmreed.com is being established...if it does not work try:
http://www.geocities.com/~dmreed
Clay Leander
>
> I would like to mention a few comments in support of Ray Barretto.
>
> One thing I really enjoy about his playing is the fire. If a fellow can
> prove to me that there really are firecrackers going off under his
> chair, I'll gladly give him credit for being deeply inspired.
>
> Musically,
>
> Matthew
>
How about Ray Barretto's timbale playing?
-Claytico
****
Brain...@webtv.net
I'm not familiar with Barretto's timbale playing. But I imagine it too
would have the fire.....
Musically,
Bonglatto