Fix for '83 Virago's Notorious Starter Problem?

[SwSnGs]

Early Yamaha Viragos (1982 and 1983) I have been told have a notorious
starter problem that slowly develops. I'm no mechanic, but I've been told
the starter gears end up having trouble engaging the flywheel, or something
like that. I've also been told a new starter will not fix the problem, and
that
the bike is SOL once it reaches this stage.

Anybody familiar with this problem, and whether there is a workaround?

Steve Singlar

[Stefan N Marsh]

I'd be interested in hearing the answer to this question as well. A friend
mentioned there is a shim to fix the problem--can anyone confirm this? Thanks.

--Stefan

[Richard Sturges]

In rec.motorcycles, sws...@aol.com (SwSnGs) writes:
>Early Yamaha Viragos (1982 and 1983) I have been told have a notorious
>starter problem that slowly develops. I'm no mechanic, but I've been told

The problem is with the starter itself, not the starter clutch.
I would be that there is a faq, but here's the skinny.
The ring, or planetary, gear withing the starter is not attached
to the starter housing properly. You need to remove the starter, open
the starter, and somehow attach the ring gear to the housing. I have
done several fixes by drilling a hole between the ring and the housing
and inserting a metal pin (ok, I just snapped off the drill bit :)
Whole job takes a couple of hours, including coffee breaks.

Rich Sturges While death and taxes are inevitable, the continued
Falls Church, VA loss of our freedoms here in America is not. VOTE!!

[Geoff Hamer]

SwSnGs (sws...@aol.com) wrote:

: Early Yamaha Viragos (1982 and 1983) I have been told have a notorious

: starter problem that slowly develops. I'm no mechanic, but I've been told
: the starter gears end up having trouble engaging the flywheel, or something
: like that. I've also been told a new starter will not fix the problem, and
: that the bike is SOL once it reaches this stage.

Repair the starter on a Virago?!?!?!?!?!?

Sacralige(sp?)!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats like putting softer pipes on a Harley so it won't make so much
noise... or lowering the suspension on a 4x4 so you can get in
easier... or pulling the ZR1 off the back of you 'vette!!

It just isn't done lad...

Geoff

P.S. There is some other guy on r.m. who has a .sig with something
simular to say about fixing Virago starters.

______
_
__\ Geoff Hamer | It take's a |
\_____,(__)=\ Ottawa, Canada. | Real Man |
,-,#### \\// ,-, 1982 Yamy Virago 750 | to wear a |
| |=====() | | DoD# 1492 | Real Hat |
'-' `-` gha...@ccs.carleton.ca

[Geof Evans]

*>>> Well yeah...one method is to shim the collar to prevent it from
when you engage the starter...thus meaning the starter spins, the
collar spins, but the engine doesn't :(
Another method is to pin it by drilling and pinning...the one I
used was to shim it...the WELD it. Works like a charm now :)
However..it is only a two brush starter motor and there is no
4 brush one from any other model that will fit so get the best,
hardest and (most important) MATCHING brushes fitted you can find.
I had mine rebrushed and the stupid morons put a soft one in there
with the hard one...needless to say a year later I had to pull it
all apart again :(
A heavier than normal solenoid will be a good investment too...
after all the starter engagement problems I had burned out my
starter solenoid too so put a Mazda car one in there...fitted like
it was made for it and really jolts that sucker to life now :)

Ok...a breif rundown on my *sickle* while I'm here just 'cause it's
sooooooo nice doncha know |}

1981 XV1000-RH (chain drive model) same as USA XV920-RH.
Roadster style not cruiser. A japanese Vincent my brother the
classic bike freak says. That may be a trifle generous but I'm
not arguing with him :} The frame design is indeed VERY similar.

Bored out to 1087cc (so an XV1100 now :) with re-jetted Mikunis
(38mm) and straight thru car type glass packs on each side.
sounds sooooooo cool my mate with the Mk.III LeMans (Guzzi) wants
me to make him a set. No way ! They took me ages to make..the
headers and cans that is. Sorta "Ray gun" style with large 1 3/4"
outlet in the center of a 4" cannister and recessed end caps.
Matt black and dark green over black base for the paintwork which
makes it look a brooding sort of BRG by day and wierd kinda black
by night...pretty cool also. Chrome is resrticted to the front and
rear (bobbed) mudguards (fenders ?) and headlight...all other bits
other than tank/sidecovers are matt black.

We got 68 rear-wheel horses on the dyno (stock 54) and pulled an
11.74 standing 1/4 out of it. I'm pretty happy with that...the
drilled discs and progressive springs up front and air adjustable
white power rear shock mean it cuts a pretty mean line through the
Black Spur, Reefton Ridge or Great Ocean Roads and sounds like
thunder while doing it !

Got around Phillip Island Gran Prix track in 2 min 20.8 seconds which
compares pretty favorably with the 2 mins 1.01 secs my mate went
round in...on his 93 FZR-1000R SuperSports ! My first time too and
he's an old A-grader....

Flat bars and a Manx-Norton flyscreen and thats my baby.

This'll get the flames a rising...but I reckon it's a shame they
took a great engine and frame concept...produced this lusty grunty
roadster and made a cruiser out of it...while dropping the roadster
altogether. I guess like the TDM850 and VX800...they just didn't
sell though they were damn near ideal "standards" for their time.
Hell...the XV1000-RH's were *Bike of the Year* over here...then the
Virago came along and they couldn't sell enough of them to meet
demand...though as a capable road eater they left a lot to be
desired in the original XV roadsters like mine. Just my opinion
mind...at least Virago's have cool engines...and no doubt may
handle the best of the cruiser brigade...and make my Roadster
version a rare species over here in comparison to the Virago.
Just the vagaries of life I guess...that guy Murphy and all |}

--
___________________________________________________________________
|| Geof Evans | DOMAIN: rxk...@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au ||
|| If they *really* wanna know...tell 'em that God was drunk. ||
-------------------------------------------------------------------

[T J LeMense (Tom)]

SwSnGs (sws...@aol.com) wrote:

: Early Yamaha Viragos (1982 and 1983) I have been told have a notorious

: starter problem that slowly develops. I'm no mechanic, but I've been told

...stuff deleted...
: Anybody familiar with this problem, and whether there is a workaround?

Hmmm... seems that this comes up each spring! I finally fixed mine last
spring, and here is the file that I keep around to send to other Virago
owners when posed with this question (I have sent it out soo many times,
maybe it has reached micro-FAQ status...?)

**********************

Here is how I pinned the slipping starter gear into place.
I used the following parts/tools:

Impact driver with large phillips bit
Metric & English socket set
Allen wrench set (metric)
(4) #10-32 allen head set screws
#10-32 tap and tap handle
drill bit sized for tapping #10 hole
drill bit sized for hodling set screw (13/64")
Torque wrench (for starter bolts)
Crankcase cover gasket (left)

The procedure is to remove the left side crankcase cover, remove
the starting gears (they usually remove themselves, so you may
want to put a towel beneath the bike to catch the falling gear),
and finally, remove the circlip on the starter gear head and
the starter gear. You are now ready to pull the starter.
Remove the two bolts that hold the starter to the engine, near
the right side crankcase cover, and remove the wire from the
terminal on the starter case. Remove the starter, pulling
it straight out.

Free the two long bolts that hold the two halves of the starter
case together--I had to use an impact driver, probably because of
the steel bolts and the aluminum case! Remove the cover on the
starter gear end--set aside the starter motor itself. In the lid
there is a large ring gear, two planet gears, and a plate with
the two planet hubs on it. The large ring gear slips, which
causes the problem with starting--mine slipped when I turned the
gear by hand!

At this point you have several options: weld the gear into
place, pin the gear into place, or shim the gear into place.
The Yamaha fix is to shim the gear, but I have heard that this
is an annual procedure, at best. My welding rig is just a small
acetelyne type, and to weld hardened steel to aluminum requires
a TIG welder (and someone who can TIG weld well!) so that was
not an option for me. I went the drill and pin route.

I left the ring gear and planets in place, and marked off four
holes, equally spaced, around the circumference of the starter
case. The hole centers were 20/32" from the lip of the cover.
I then drilled the holes with a bit sized appropriately for
tapping for 10-32 thread. I used 10-32 allen head set screws
for my job, and they worked well. Drill completely through
the aluminum housing, and make a small dent in the steel ring
gear. Remove the ring gear and use the dents as a guide to
enlarge the holes with a 13/64" bit to make room for the set
screw points. Drill the holes in the ring gear deep enough
so that at least three threads of the set screw will hang into
the dent. Put the ring gear and planets into place, apply a
liberal amount of lithium grease to the starter, and line
the dents in the ring gear up with the holes in the starter
cover. Loosely put the set screws into their holes, and
gradually tighten each one, like tightening lug nuts, to seat
the screws into the gear equally. Remove the screws, one at
a time, apply lock-tite or any other thread locker, and replace
the screw.

Put some grease on the O-ring and planet gears, and put
the cover back on the starter. Replace the long bolts,
again, I used am impact driver to keep the set screws from
doing all of the work of holding the gear in place. Put the
starter back into the engine, connect the wires, replace
the starter gears, and replace the crankcase cover. I also
replaced the crankcase cover gasket, but I also had the cover
on and off about four times in the last month! The gasket
is up to you, but is only about $12 or so...

Happy Riding!

--
Tom LeMense
RF Product Design Engineer
Ford Motor Co - Electronics Division
tlem...@rchp33.eld.ford.com
'82 XV750 Virago DoD #1074

[Scot Shepherd]

In article <2ot6a1$1...@search01.news.aol.com> sws...@aol.com (SwSnGs)
writes:

Well it might not be the *same* problem that your trying to fix but
my '82 750 needed a new solinoid and new brushes in the starter
itself. Afterward that, it sounds and starts much better. Keeping
your battery in good shape can only help as well.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Scot Shepherd -- Suite Software | Nuke the un-born gay whales --
-- Email: shep...@suite.com | for Jesus!!! --
--------------------------------------------------------------------

[duskint...@gmail.com]

I've had several Viragos and all had "box o' rocks" starters when I got them. First, pull off alternator side cover. then locate the compression spring on the gear set that contacts the fly wheel. throw that spring away. Next, pull out the solenoid and flush out the plunger with wd40, then a fine spray oil. ensure that it goes in and out smoothly. NOTE: There is a right way and a wrong way to install the actuator arm that goes from solenoid plunger to the gear engage hook shaft screw. Installed improperly, the driven intermediate gear will fail to fully engage the flywheel gear teeth. It will cam off and you'll hear the free spinning starter motor sound. The other thing that causes premature starter clutch wear is a sticking starter button. That sprague clutch is only meant to go in one direction. With the starter still engaged after engine starts it wears this starter clutch (bendix clutch, sprague clutch) out too soon. just squirt wd40 directly into starter button to free it up. Lastly...the damn neutral switch. if it's "flaky jakey" replace it. You can try cleaning it, but I've had no luck doing that. Replacement is cheap and it fixes the issue of low power or poor connection to starter circuit. That neutral light has to be BRIGHT green if the switch is working right. Ok, that's all I got on Virago starter
>
> Steve Singlar

[duskint...@gmail.com]

> I've had several Viragos and all had "box o' rocks" starters when I got them. First, pull off alternator side cover. then locate the compression spring on the gear set that contacts the fly wheel. throw that spring away. Next, pull out the solenoid and flush out the plunger with wd40, then a fine spray oil. ensure that it goes in and out smoothly. NOTE: There is a right way and a wrong way to install the actuator arm that goes from solenoid plunger to the gear engage hook shaft screw. Installed improperly, the driven intermediate gear will fail to fully engage the flywheel gear teeth. It will cam off and you'll hear the free spinning starter motor sound. The other thing that causes premature starter clutch wear is a sticking starter button. That sprague clutch is only meant to go in one direction. With the starter still engaged after engine starts it wears this starter clutch (bendix clutch, sprague clutch) out too soon. just squirt wd40 directly into starter button to free it up. Lastly...the damn neutral switch. if it's "flaky jakey" replace it. You can try cleaning it, but I've had no luck doing that. Replacement is cheap and it fixes the issue of low power or poor connection to starter circuit. That neutral light has to be BRIGHT green if the switch is working right. Ok, that's all I got on Virago starter -Randy Solis
> >
> > Steve Singlar

oh yeah i forgot... dont weld or pin anything in your starter mechanism. one good backfire will wreck your engine!

[sleazy]

*sigh*

The post you’re replying to was from 1994. I’m pretty sure his Virago is
long dead.

[The Older Gentleman]

sleazy <no...@nil.net> wrote:

> *sigh*
>
> The post you're replying to was from 1994. I'm pretty sure his Virago is
> long dead.

This is what happens when t'internet is used by people brought up on
social media.


--
BMW K1600GTL; Kawasaki Ninja H2, Yamaha 660 Ténéré;
Guzzi Le Mans Mk.2; Honda CD200, CB400F, Yamaha 125 NMax
More secure garages needed....
neil underscore murray at fastmail dot fm

[RosemontCrest]

On 7/4/2020 5:59 AM, The Older Gentleman wrote:
> sleazy <no...@nil.net> wrote:
>
>> *sigh*
>>
>> The post you're replying to was from 1994. I'm pretty sure his Virago is
>> long dead.
>
> This is what happens when t'internet is used by people brought up on
> social media.

Exactly how does that make sense?

[sleazy]

If you have to ask....... I’d suggest abandoning Usenet.

[Futility Man]

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 19:41:59 -0000 (UTC), sleazy <no...@nil.net> wrote:

>The post you’re replying to was from 1994. I’m pretty sure his Virago is
>long dead.

You'd be surprised how many of them are still around. This may hold the record
for the oldest post getting a reply, but it's still relevant.

--
Futility Man

[RosemontCrest]

What medium do people brought up on social media use?

[The Older Gentleman]

<VBG>

[mikekn...@sbcglobal.net]

On Monday, April 18, 1994 at 12:37:05 AM UTC-5, SwSnGs wrote:

Mike Miller·Saturday, May 30, 2020·
Final starter fix- MIKE MILLER MOD
(See original post below- HISTORY)
Okay, let me put it this way.
The 'starter problem' is an electrical problem FIRST and a mechanical problem SECOND.
The TCI needs stable voltage to work.
The many actions inherent in cranking a big v-twin causes a wildly varying load on a battery, especially a battery that is not strong and fresh. This load variation translates to a VOLTAGE FLUCTUATION...which can switch off the TCI while cranking.
Result: NO SPARK!
The stabilizer- a simple $15 piece- makes sure the TCI gets clean voltage.
So, with the stabilizer, if the battery is strong enough to get the piston over Top Dead Center on compression stroke, you will get spark. BOOM!
(Did you ever let off the start button and suddenly fire up strong? Like a kick-start? It can happen that you let off just as the piston if flying upward on the compression stroke fast enough to get over the top, and the voltage is there right as the TCI needs it, so the engine starts! That is what caused me to use an OSCILLOSCOPE to chart the voltage while cranking. The voltage swings wildly! Then, I separated the TCI from the rest of the harness, used a SEPARATE battery to feed it, and the engine started cleanly EVERY TIME, verifying the cause. The stabilizer is like a small separate battery for the TCI.)
Yes, a big new battery will get a good strong start. So will jump-starting from a diesel truck!
Yes, renewing the gears will likely keep you cranking and MAYBE start...until the gears again disengage, as explained in my post -"Final Fix for Starters".
Yes, removing the disengagement spring will give you a little more engagement. It can also allow the gear to hang up on the flywheel and wear out other parts of the starter drive. (It sounds like something still buzzing in the case.)
So, I'll say this- GET the stabilizer. Put it in.
If you have EVER had a start problem on the old-style starter designs, just get the stabilizer.
ALL OTHER FIXES are fixes of the EFFECTS of bad, dirty, fluctuating voltage. Strong batteries and sharp gears will always help.
Michael J. Miller
Austin, Texas
Original owner of a 1981 Virago 750
138,000 miles and still using the original factory designed starter system.


HISTORY- MY ORIGINAL POST
The final "fix" to starters, carbs, and weak spark.
Many years back, I posted to DR. PISTON about getting a hotter spark by using the ACCEL HARLEY SINGLE-FIRE COIL. Many of you followed that advice based on my finding that the spark-during-crank was sometimes too weak to fire the rich mix.
It IS a good upgrade, but I wondered WHY the spark was weak on start. So, I hooked up a dual-trace oscilloscope to get a real-time look at the action. What I found was that the juice needed to crank that big piston to top-dead-center for the fire could drop the voltage momentarily to as low as EIGHT VOLTS!
The TCI will not work with less than TEN VOLTS, so, as the piston was getting ready to fire, THE TCI SHUT OFF!
Further, I had noticed that sometimes, as I let off the start button, the bike would then fire. With the info from the trace on the scope, it made perfect sense. Once the voltage came back up, it fired just like kick-starting
Next, I took a small separate battery and used it to juice only the TCI. This kept the voltage to the TCI stable at 12V.
BINGO! It started right up!
So, NOW, OFFICIALLY, I offer this final fix to the start question.
https://www.ebay.com/i/311627034464?rt=nc
Get this voltage stabilizer, hook it in between the wiring harness and the TCI on the R/W wire. And I will bet you that the bike starts just the way you always hoped.
All the bikers I rode with would wait for me to get my cantankerous Viragosaurus '81 to start before they would touch their keys.
Then, after this change, I was cranked and gone, and they had to CATCH UP!
PS- The starter disengaging is mentioned in another post, but here is what happens-
The starter can't keep up with the piston after it hits TDC in compression. The compression pushes the piston downward too fast to keep the gears engaged, so the starter gear partially disengages with each revolution until it jumps out and spins. IF THE PISTON FIRES ON THE FIRST OR SECOND TRY, the starter stays engaged long enough.
SO, when I start my bike, I NEVER hold the start button longer than 2 revolutions. Then let off and do it again. In 130,000 miles, I have made NO CHANGES to my starter gears except to replace the starter with a 4-brush solid magnet starter.
Mike Miller
Austin, Texas
DC Voltage Stabilizer 8-40V to 12V 6A 72W Car Power Supply Regulator Waterproof | eBay
DC Voltage Stabilizer 8-40V to 12V 6A 72W Car Power Supply Regulator Waterproof
ebay.com

[mikekn...@sbcglobal.net]

On Monday, April 18, 1994 at 12:37:05 AM UTC-5, SwSnGs wrote:

The starter SHIM is a problem WITHIN the starter motor itself, where a planetary gearset sits. The RING gear spins if the tension on the assembly bolts is insufficient. Once the ring gear spins, it get loos FAST, and must be shimmed, or keyed to the case to stop spinning.
'

[The Older Gentleman]

<mikekn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> On Monday, April 18, 1994 at 12:37:05 AM UTC-5, SwSnGs wrote:
> > Early Yamaha Viragos (1982 and 1983) I have been told have a notorious
> > starter problem that slowly develops. I'm no mechanic, but I've been told
> > the starter gears end up having trouble engaging the flywheel, or something
> > like that. I've also been told a new starter will not fix the problem, and
> > that
> > the bike is SOL once it reaches this stage.
> >
> > Anybody familiar with this problem, and whether there is a workaround?
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve Singlar
>
> Mike Miller·Saturday, May 30, 2020·

Why are you replying to a quarter-century old posting, newbie?

[Futility Man]

On Sat, 11 Jul 2020 15:35:08 +0100, totallyde...@yahoo.co.uk (The Older
Gentleman) wrote:

>Why are you replying to a quarter-century old posting, newbie?

Because like Lance Holtz being a jerk, it's still relevant.
--
Futility Man

[travisy...@gmail.com]

Because people are still using this thread for help. I have a 1984 virago with a box of rocks starter and a bad button. Trying to figure weather I should order button, starter, and solenoid. Thanks.

[mikekn...@sbcglobal.net]

On Tuesday, July 14, 2020 at 9:36:54 PM UTC-5, travisy...@gmail.com wrote:
> Because people are still using this thread for help. I have a 1984 virago with a box of rocks starter and a bad button. Trying to figure weather I should order button, starter, and solenoid. Thanks.

Go to FaceBook page Virago 81-83 only- my page.
In FILES, you will fing "The Final Fix" and much more.
The button can be replaced on Ebay, but I used a piece from a rivet, a spacer from a ball-point pen, and a stronger spring, so mine rockes like a momentary flip switch.
GET THE STABILIZER before you even pull the starter. If may be fine.
As to teh solenoid, you can find the generic replacement for under $10. Same thing- just not Yamaha- used for everything from a 50cc pocket bike to an 1100.

In discussions, you will find a video of a guy who did nothing but put in the stabilizer, and it starts first crank, every time.
Mike

[mcnab...@gmail.com]

This may be a post from the last century but it's still very useful.
I just got a like-new 81 XV920RH 5800km and will do the voltage stabilizer fix today.
Can anyone recommend a good place to mpunt it? I understand that heat dissipation is important.

[edit to send email]

In <1otdv9j.1xpesm9quuy0aN%totallyde...@yahoo.co.uk>, on 07/11/20

at 03:35 PM, totallyde...@yahoo.co.uk (The Older Gentleman) said:



><mikekn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>> On Monday, April 18, 1994 at 12:37:05 AM UTC-5, SwSnGs wrote:
>> > Early Yamaha Viragos (1982 and 1983) I have been told have a notorious
>> > starter problem that slowly develops. I'm no mechanic, but I've been told
>> > the starter gears end up having trouble engaging the flywheel, or something
>> > like that. I've also been told a new starter will not fix the problem, and
>> > that
>> > the bike is SOL once it reaches this stage.
>> >
>> > Anybody familiar with this problem, and whether there is a workaround?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Steve Singlar
>>
>> Mike Miller Saturday, May 30, 2020

>Why are you replying to a quarter-century old posting, newbie?

In the end, so are you)

Cheers, Bjorn.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
bjorn.r...@guzzi.demon.nl (Bjorn Rietdijk)
-----------------------------------------------------------

[Paul C]

This is an old and well-know problem. The virago can easily be fixed by ordering and installing the parts in this video that I made in 2007;

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3DZnxkRZ1u4VGpQU1FmODIySE0/view?usp=drive_link&resourcekey=0-tqG2XVcv35rbIlx6vSlJ8Q

I recommend downloading a copy of the video.

- Paul C

On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 4:48:13 PM UTC-7, edit to send email wrote:
> In <1otdv9j.1xpesm9quuy0aN%totallyde...@yahoo.co.uk>, on 07/11/20
> at 03:35 PM, totallyde...@yahoo.co.uk (The Older Gentleman) said:
>
>
>
> ><mikekn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >> On Monday, April 18, 1994 at 12:37:05 AM UTC-5, SwSnGs wrote:
> >> > Early Yamaha Viragos (1982 and 1983) I have been told have a notorious
> >> > starter problem that slowly develops. I'm no mechanic, but I've been told
> >> > the starter gears end up having trouble engaging the flywheel, or something
> >> > like that. I've also been told a new starter will not fix the problem,