No matter how long you ride, the death of a fellow motorcyclist is never easy to take
Tim Kreitz
another young rider to an all-too-common crash occurrence: Loss of
control in a turn at high speed. And no matter how many times I've seen
it happen over the last 16 years, it never gets any easier to take.
Fortunately, I wasn't riding with the group in question on the day the
crash I allude to happened. I rode alone all day, which is getting to
be my practice more and more, as wave after wave of teenage newby
saddles up on the latest in two-wheeled technology, armed with no more
riding knowledge than simply how to twist a throttle. Summers are the
worst for youngsters hurting and or killing themselves on sportbikes,
but the events of last weekend are a stark reminder that it can -- and
does -- happen all year 'round.
I didn't know the rider in question very well. He was new to the group,
was in his early twenties, and rode a brand new repli-racer 600. But
his death sickened me nonetheless. Any time some common and easily
avoidable motorcycle death involving a young rider comes to my
attention, I always shake my head in bewilderment -- largely because
it's always the same things over and over again; young rider misjudges
a corner and impales himself on a fencepost; young rider chooses bad
lane positioning and gets creamed by a left-turning cager; young rider
loops his bike out; young rider goes too fast in the wrong environment.
The list goes on, but commonality is always a factor, and it never
ceases to amaze me. It's like watching a Swiss clock. Don't expect a
deviation, because you won't be getting one..
I used to write off these kinds of crashes as simply the gene pool
cleansing itself, but as I've grown older and more mature, I've come to
realize that we've lost a lot of otherwise intelligent, valuable people
who simply let the thrill of motorcycling cause bad decision-making,
leading to a fatal moment. We're all guilty of such behavior in one
area of our lives or another from time to time, but the stakes are high
when it comes to motorbikes.
I'm not really sure where I'm going with this post, other than to use
it as a mechanism for venting all these thoughts. So I guess I'll just
say goodnight, and offer a prayer of peace and well-wishes to the
fallen rider's family.
The wonder and awe provided by motorcycling should be tempered with
knowledge, training, and a culture of pilotesque seriousness. Until
that happens, we'll continue to see young riders do the same silly
things over and over again on motorbikes, and pay a great price for it.
And perhaps that's the greatest tragedy of all -- that each generation
of new riders seems to learn absolutely nothing from the hard lessons
of the generation before it.
Tim Kreitz
2003 ZX7R
2000 ZX6R
http://www.timkreitz.com
Stupendous Man
yesterday, the old left turn and didnt look. His beanie came off before he
landed on his head. Duhh.
--
Stupendous Man,
Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty
Steve L
"Tim Kreitz" <timk...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1164767745....@14g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
Amen Tim,
You're an excellent writer and a very bright guy. I don't always agree
with every word you write, but I admire your willingness to state your
opinion.
I would add that it's not just youngsters, though that's certainly the
overwhelming majority, but there are lots of 30+ year olds and even 40
and 50+ year olds doing some of these pretty basic fatal maneuvers too.
But your point is taken, unfortunately the ego somehow seems to override
the intellect.
--
Steve L
Ashby Ma
http://home.comcast.net/~srl1215/index.htm
Rayvan
Tim Kreitz wrote:
> Over the Thanksgiving holiday, the Odessa Sporbike Group lost yet
> another young rider to an all-too-common crash occurrence: Loss of
> control in a turn at high speed. And no matter how many times I've seen
> it happen over the last 16 years, it never gets any easier to take.
I feel for you, man. I feel for his family. They'll never again be
able to celebrate Thanksgiving.
What's horrible is when you know the person has a problem and you
ignored it 'till it's too late.
In my buddys case, one day while riding behind him, I notice he tended
to run wide in turns even though his bike had plenty of room left to
lean. I never pointed it out. I didn't want to "hurt his feelings" He
didn't correct it.
He died in a head-on with a cage because he ran wide in a right hander.
I've been kicking myself ever since. This was in '02. I still lose lots
of sleep.
I will *never* fail to point out a shortcoming *ever* again, I don't
care how the person may feel about me....
--
Rayvan
.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:
>Over the Thanksgiving holiday, the Odessa Sporbike Group lost yet
>another young rider to an all-too-common crash occurrence: Loss of
>control in a turn at high speed. And no matter how many times I've seen
>it happen over the last 16 years, it never gets any easier to take.
>
>Fortunately, I wasn't riding with the group in question on the day the
>crash I allude to happened. I rode alone all day, which is getting to
>be my practice more and more, as wave after wave of teenage newby
>saddles up on the latest in two-wheeled technology, armed with no more
>riding knowledge than simply how to twist a throttle. Summers are the
>worst for youngsters hurting and or killing themselves on sportbikes,
>but the events of last weekend are a stark reminder that it can -- and
>does -- happen all year 'round.
Someone else posted a pointer earlier tonight to a bike that
puts out 118 HP and weighs 400 lbs wet.
Shit, back when I had my CB360 it had ( I looked it up, but
forget exactly ) ~ 25 - 30 HP, at the same weight. And I can tell
you, when I shifted down and twisted my right hand, that bitch TOOK
OFF ! From a stop, or from speed. I know, I know, that's laughable
today. It could do > 100 MPH, given a long downhill and a good tail
wind, that I can attest to personally. Today's sports bikes can do >
150 MPH pretty much routinely, on the flats.
And that's a large part of the problem- bikes more powerful
than ever existed back then, and at the same weight, are 'routine
street bikes' today. The kid who used to buy 'the latest and greatest
cool bike' 30 years ago and be riding 50 HP, does it now and gets
better than 200 % as much HP and torque as ever existed back then.
But he is no more prepared to HANDLE it than we were back then.
The bike I will be getting when I have the money, a Sabre
1100, has ~ 50 HP, at ~ 550 lbs ( from memory ), and performs in the
1/4 mile similar to a new Dodge Viper, Corvette, etc. Which is 'lamer
than shit' compared to any of todays 'hot bikes', I know.
How many young kids < 25 years old belong behind the wheel of
a Viper or a Corvette as their 'first ride' ?? Because that is the
performance they are getting when they buy even a 'routine / common
place / mid-range' sports bike today.
Ashpalt, concrete and trees haven't changed much in any
relevant regard, though. They are all still hard.
>I didn't know the rider in question very well. He was new to the group,
>was in his early twenties, and rode a brand new repli-racer 600. But
I bet it put out > 100 HP or close to it, was hotter-than-shit
looking with the race plastic and all, and impressed the HELL out of
the chicks. And could leave a Viper or Corvette sucking dust.
Until he met a tree that wanted to argue the point.
>his death sickened me nonetheless. Any time some common and easily
>avoidable motorcycle death involving a young rider comes to my
>attention, I always shake my head in bewilderment -- largely because
>it's always the same things over and over again; young rider misjudges
>a corner and impales himself on a fencepost; young rider chooses bad
>lane positioning and gets creamed by a left-turning cager; young rider
>loops his bike out; young rider goes too fast in the wrong environment.
>The list goes on, but commonality is always a factor, and it never
>ceases to amaze me. It's like watching a Swiss clock. Don't expect a
>deviation, because you won't be getting one..
And, 'drinking while being cool on your bike' is still
popular.
>I used to write off these kinds of crashes as simply the gene pool
>cleansing itself, but as I've grown older and more mature, I've come to
>realize that we've lost a lot of otherwise intelligent, valuable people
>who simply let the thrill of motorcycling cause bad decision-making,
>leading to a fatal moment. We're all guilty of such behavior in one
>area of our lives or another from time to time, but the stakes are high
>when it comes to motorbikes.
Sure as shit. I lived through mine, didn't even get hurt bad.
Only through fate and chance and whatever Dogs you believe in, not
through any merit or worth or brains on my part.
>I'm not really sure where I'm going with this post, other than to use
>it as a mechanism for venting all these thoughts. So I guess I'll just
>say goodnight, and offer a prayer of peace and well-wishes to the
>fallen rider's family.
Yep.
>The wonder and awe provided by motorcycling should be tempered with
>knowledge, training, and a culture of pilotesque seriousness. Until
>that happens, we'll continue to see young riders do the same silly
>things over and over again on motorbikes, and pay a great price for it.
>And perhaps that's the greatest tragedy of all -- that each generation
>of new riders seems to learn absolutely nothing from the hard lessons
>of the generation before it.
Keep posting like that, and I'll take you out of my kill file,
instead of once in a blue moon following back from a reply by someone
else :-)
I know this gives you a new goal in life .... :-)
>
>Tim Kreitz
>2003 ZX7R
>2000 ZX6R
>http://www.timkreitz.com
--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:
>
>Tim Kreitz wrote:
>> Over the Thanksgiving holiday, the Odessa Sporbike Group lost yet
>> another young rider to an all-too-common crash occurrence: Loss of
>> control in a turn at high speed. And no matter how many times I've seen
>> it happen over the last 16 years, it never gets any easier to take.
>
>I feel for you, man. I feel for his family. They'll never again be
>able to celebrate Thanksgiving.
>
>What's horrible is when you know the person has a problem and you
>ignored it 'till it's too late.
>
>In my buddys case, one day while riding behind him, I notice he tended
>to run wide in turns even though his bike had plenty of room left to
>lean. I never pointed it out. I didn't want to "hurt his feelings" He
>didn't correct it.
>
>He died in a head-on with a cage because he ran wide in a right hander.
>I've been kicking myself ever since. This was in '02. I still lose lots
>of sleep.
Fact is, you weren't driving. He was. If he was going over
the center line, or too close to it, he damned well KNEW he was going
over, and he CHOSE to. He CHOSE to ride like that, he was not unaware
of it. You didn't choose that for him. So don't kick yourself for
what HE CHOSE.
>
>I will *never* fail to point out a shortcoming *ever* again, I don't
>care how the person may feel about me....
--
.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:
This phrase bears repeating, and memorizing.
>The wonder and awe provided by motorcycling should be tempered with
>knowledge, training, and a culture of pilotesque seriousness.
"...a culture of pilotesque seriousness.''.
Well put. To be thought upon, and recalled by us all.
oasysco
I'm sorry to hear about another young person dying on a bike.
We had a recent death just around the corner from me. 43 year-old dad
going to work at 7AM lost control of his bike and hit a tree, killing
him instantly. The crash occured at a slippery intersection that always
contains gravel just before it connects with my street. I've gone down
that little hill plenty and always with trepidation... we're talking a
25mph limit on a back street, but with that gravel that seems to be a
result of an adjoining pond always overflowing, I take it at 15. This
guy was in a hurry to get to work and, as a result, never made it.
Greg
Tim Kreitz
> I will *never* fail to point out a shortcoming *ever* again, I don't
> care how the person may feel about me....
Yep. I've learned the same lesson over the years. Now firmly entrenched
in my 30s, I'll say just about anything I feel needs to be said to an
inexperienced rider. Sometimes it gets me into controversy:
But, like you, I have come to feel strongly compelled by my conscience.
Tim Kreitz
> Well put. To be thought upon, and recalled by us all.
Thanks. And you're right about how the latest generation of bikers look
at performance motorcycles from the '70s and '80s. They play them down
as underpowered and outdated, but the majority of those who make such
criticisms aren't even capable of riding one of those old bikes to its
performance limit. It's a strange dichotomy in perception.
Tim Kreitz
> We had a recent death just around the corner from me. 43 year-old dad
> going to work at 7AM lost control of his bike and hit a tree, killing
> him instantly. The crash occured at a slippery intersection that always
> contains gravel just before it connects with my street. I've gone down
> that little hill plenty and always with trepidation... we're talking a
> 25mph limit on a back street, but with that gravel that seems to be a
> result of an adjoining pond always overflowing, I take it at 15. This
> guy was in a hurry to get to work and, as a result, never made it.
I read an excellent article on a motorcycle website one time, the title
of which was something along the lines of, "In a hurry? Take the car!"
It pretty much sums up your exact story in rhetorical terms. Yet
another situation where an analogy with flying can be drawn: If you're
in too big a hurry to do a proper pre-flight and file a flight plan,
you need not fly.
Tim Kreitz
> I would add that it's not just youngsters, though that's certainly the
> overwhelming majority, but there are lots of 30+ year olds and even 40
> and 50+ year olds doing some of these pretty basic fatal maneuvers too.
Definitely. It just seems like most younger riders are gravitating
toward the sport scene, which tends to microcosmologize the effects of
their subsequent crashes.
Rob Kleinschmidt
> The wonder and awe provided by motorcycling should be tempered with
> knowledge, training, and a culture of pilotesque seriousness. Until
> that happens, we'll continue to see young riders do the same silly
> things over and over again on motorbikes, and pay a great price for it.
> And perhaps that's the greatest tragedy of all -- that each generation
> of new riders seems to learn absolutely nothing from the hard lessons
> of the generation before it.
That's pretty much the way life works I'm afraid. When I was 19,
a friend wiped out and died in a motorcycle accident. My son's
best friend died in a car crash in his senior year of high school.
I don't think either of us had any sense of our own mortality before
that happened.
Calgary
wrote:
>Over the Thanksgiving holiday, the Odessa Sporbike Group lost yet
>another young rider to an all-too-common crash occurrence: Loss of
>control in a turn at high speed. And no matter how many times I've seen
>it happen over the last 16 years, it never gets any easier to take.
As a matter of fact Tim, in my mind it gets worse. While I mourn the
loss of another rider and can feel for the family, I tire of stupid
riders mounting bikes with way too much power, and then overdriving
their skills.
In many cases these are not accidents, they are preconceived acts of
stupidity.
--
24 hours in a day
&
24 beer in a case
Coincidence?
I think not
Alan Moore
wrote:
>oasysco wrote:
>> We had a recent death just around the corner from me. 43 year-old dad
>> going to work at 7AM lost control of his bike and hit a tree, killing
>> him instantly. The crash occured at a slippery intersection that always
>> contains gravel just before it connects with my street. I've gone down
>> that little hill plenty and always with trepidation... we're talking a
>> 25mph limit on a back street, but with that gravel that seems to be a
>> result of an adjoining pond always overflowing, I take it at 15. This
>> guy was in a hurry to get to work and, as a result, never made it.
>
>I read an excellent article on a motorcycle website one time, the title
>of which was something along the lines of, "In a hurry? Take the car!"
That pretty much sums up my position. Even though I know that, in
general, the motorcycle will get me there faster, if I feel like I'm
in a hurry, the car is the vehicle of choice.
>It pretty much sums up your exact story in rhetorical terms. Yet
>another situation where an analogy with flying can be drawn: If you're
>in too big a hurry to do a proper pre-flight and file a flight plan,
>you need not fly.
>
and the old saw (that I got on my first day of pilot training):
"There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old
bold pilots."
Al Moore
DoD 734
Rayvan
Tim Kreitz wrote:
> Rayvan wrote:
> > I will *never* fail to point out a shortcoming *ever* again, I don't
> > care how the person may feel about me....
>
> Yep. I've learned the same lesson over the years. Now firmly entrenched
> in my 30s, I'll say just about anything I feel needs to be said to an
> inexperienced rider. Sometimes it gets me into controversy:
>
> <http://www.xsorbit6.com/users/odessasportbikes/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&num=1160424582&start=19>
>
> But, like you, I have come to feel strongly compelled by my conscience.
Good thread. Good for you. Hopefully you've saved her life. She may not
like you for it now, but it's sure better than the alternative.
All I had to say to Red, was: "Hey man. You're running wide, but I can
see a *bunch* of room under your pipes (lowest hard-part on his bike).
You should practice in a parking lot until you know *exactly* where
they touch down."
It tough. F*ck. My eyes are welling up...
--
Rayvan
.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:
If he's in that zone ( leaning so hard his pipes touch down,
or near to it ) what he needed to practice was 'slowing the fuck
down'. Just because you CAN lean it until something touches, doesn't
mean you SHOULD be having to do that.
>
>It tough. F*ck. My eyes are welling up...
I doubt anything you could have said would have changed his
riding. If he's in the habit of 'riding on the hairy edge' scaring
the shit out of himself in turns, then he damned well KNOWS it.
Rayvan
.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
>
> I doubt anything you could have said would have changed his
> riding. If he's in the habit of 'riding on the hairy edge' scaring
> the shit out of himself in turns, then he damned well KNOWS it.
I don't know if you understand: He wasn't *on* the hairy edge as you've
stated. He was following several bikes that were very similar to his
own and the pace was not "hairy" at all.
He just didn't know his new bike. The problem could have easily been
corrected with a few minutes of practice.
--
Rayvan
Paladin
wrote:
>.... Just because you CAN lean it until something touches, doesn't
>mean you SHOULD be having to do that.
If you are riding at the edge -- you have nothing more in case you
need it. Which is no problem on the track.
.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:
>
>.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
>
>>
>> I doubt anything you could have said would have changed his
>> riding. If he's in the habit of 'riding on the hairy edge' scaring
>> the shit out of himself in turns, then he damned well KNOWS it.
>
>I don't know if you understand: He wasn't *on* the hairy edge as you've
>stated. He was following several bikes that were very similar to his
>own and the pace was not "hairy" at all.
Not for you, perhaps, or others. but if he's 'always going
wide in turns' as you say, and it's a matter of 'lack of control'
rather than 'poor line choice', then he was on HIS personal 'hairy
edge', regardless if it was due to a new ride, or his level, etc. He
was over HIS edge on THAT bike.
>He just didn't know his new bike. The problem could have easily been
>corrected with a few minutes of practice.
Again - anyone's who's going so fast in a turn that they need
to scrape pegs ' n pipes - is going TOO FUCKING FAST, I don't care who
they are, or how good, etc. They may be 'good enough to ride that
ride', but they are treating the public road like their own personal
race tracks, and THAT is unsafe for others, at the very least.
When you scrape, you are AT the edge. That's it, she ain't
got no more, no matter who you are. You have no margin to work with,
and you are pushing the envelope. That is NOT 'safe riding'.
What he needed a few minutes of practice on was 'ride your own
ride, ride safely, and let that be more important to you than 'keeping
up with others'.
Rayvan
.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
>
> When you scrape, you are AT the edge. That's it, she ain't
> got no more, no matter who you are. You have no margin to work with,
> and you are pushing the envelope. That is NOT 'safe riding'.
Thank you captain obvious.
Okay. So. How do you know where that envelope is if you've never
experienced it? Like I said: Red wasn't even *close* to that edge.
Does it not make sense to you that one needs to know where thier bikes
limits are for any potential situation? Would it not save lives if
everyone did?
--
Rayvan
.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:
>
>.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
>
>>
>> When you scrape, you are AT the edge. That's it, she ain't
>> got no more, no matter who you are. You have no margin to work with,
>> and you are pushing the envelope. That is NOT 'safe riding'.
>
>Thank you captain obvious.
>
>Okay. So. How do you know where that envelope is if you've never
>experienced it? Like I said: Red wasn't even *close* to that edge.
Understood. He was only at ( slightly beyond ) HIS edge.
Which is the danger point for ANY rider. Your PERSONAL 'edge', not
'how much better the bike is than you'. And the preferred method to
stay within 'your own personal limits' is : Slow the fuck down.
>
>Does it not make sense to you that one needs to know where thier bikes
>limits are for any potential situation? Would it not save lives if
>everyone did?
Yes. And then, you DON'T make that edge a routine part of
your driving, you use it only when needed. Preferably, you slow down
going into the turns, leave enough following distance, etc, so you
DON'T need it.
You should know, for instance, where your bike breaks traction
or tries to do a stoppie, etc, under braking, and for that matter how
to ride out a skid, etc, but your daily riding should be focused on
NOT NEEDING TO.
Calgary
wrote:
>
Well I might add to this discussion there is more to navigating a
corner than just the lean angle. I am not sure you can help a guy
avoid running wide by just telling him he has lots of lean angle left.
If he is receptive to advice, and many aren't, you might start with
the basics; choosing the correct line, ride to the apex or delayed
apex, speed and throttle control, the vanishing point and of course
how to counter steer among other things.
I suspect this rider did not know how to corner his bike. Running wide
was just a symptom of that.
Rayvan
.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
>
> You should know, for instance, where your bike breaks traction
> or tries to do a stoppie, etc, under braking, and for that matter how
> to ride out a skid, etc, but your daily riding should be focused on
> NOT NEEDING TO.
Gee. Ya think?
--
Rayvan
Henry
> "Rayvan" <rvann...@cachevision.com> wrote:
>> He just didn't know his new bike. The problem could have easily been
>> corrected with a few minutes of practice.
> Again - anyone's who's going so fast in a turn that they need
> to scrape pegs ' n pipes - is going TOO FUCKING FAST, I don't care who
> they are, or how good, etc.
No one suggested that he should ride that way. You
stopped thinking again.
--
http://911research.wtc7.net
http://www.st911.org
Here's what happens to steel framed buildings exposed
to raging infernos for hours on end.
http://davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr69c.html
On 9-11-01, WTC7, a 47 story steel framed building, which
had only small, random fires, dropped in perfect symmetry
at near free fall speed as in a perfectly executed controlled
demolition.
BrianNZ
Look man, things have changed a lot since the seventies and 350cc
Honda's. These days, when you only ride for fun (as opposed to 'daily
riding'), finding the edge is what you are looking for. I have a bike
that is better than my riding, but I'm growing into it and enjoying
every minute. I know I can push harder or lean further 'If I have
to'!......that is my safety margin.
.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
>Look man, things have changed a lot since the seventies and 350cc
>Honda's. These days, when you only ride for fun (as opposed to 'daily
>riding'), finding the edge is what you are looking for. I have a bike
Look, man, nothing has changed except the numbers, and the
songs on the radio. Young guys are still young guys. Beer is still
beer. Pussy is still pussy.
>that is better than my riding, but I'm growing into it and enjoying
>every minute. I know I can push harder or lean further 'If I have
>to'!......that is my safety margin.
And your whole attitude towards riding and the road and the
rights of others is dangerous.
BrianNZ
> On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 14:56:37 +1300, BrianNZ <br...@itnz.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> Look man, things have changed a lot since the seventies and 350cc
>> Honda's. These days, when you only ride for fun (as opposed to 'daily
>> riding'), finding the edge is what you are looking for. I have a bike
>
> Look, man, nothing has changed except the numbers, and the
> songs on the radio. Young guys are still young guys.
So , as a young man., you used to do wheelies, stoppies, scrape the
pegs/pipes, see what the top speed was, practice cornering until you
were right over?
> Beer is still
> beer.
Monteiths is better than Lion Brown.......
> Pussy is still pussy.
The ones I see now are a lot older.......
>
>> that is better than my riding, but I'm growing into it and enjoying
>> every minute. I know I can push harder or lean further 'If I have
>> to'!......that is my safety margin.
>
> And your whole attitude towards riding and the road and the
> rights of others is dangerous.
>
>
If it's so dangerous, how come I'm not dead? A good mate died on his new
Tuono a while back.......killed in a head on with a tourist who was on
the wrong side of the road. Now thats dangerous!.....and they weren't
even speeding.
Life is a game and the old 'go hard or go home' saying fits in well. As
long as I'm physically able, I'll be playing.
.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:
Yep.
So, why do you think your friend needed to know 'how to lean
harder' instead of 'how to ride slower' ? Didn't he need to know HIS
limits instead of the BIKE's limits ?
Because if his limits are below those of the bike ( apparently
they were ), the bike's limits don't really help much.
Isn't THAT really the key to safe riding ? Not 'how far can
you push the envelope of the machine', but rather 'How can YOU ride
safely' ?
And that's my point here - your saying something to him about
the limits of the bike wouldn't have helped him, IMO. He just would
have ridden harder and faster and closer to them. He was already 'at
the hairy edge' **FOR HIM**, and not backing off. If that edge had
moved, he would have followed it.
So, you should not be kicking yourself for his decisions,
because it was exactly that - his DECISIONS, that did it. His
CHOICES. What he needed was to change his mindset to a SAFE rather
than THRILLING riding style, not just to find out the edge of the
machine's envelope was even further out than he was already using.
And I doubt THAT is something a few words from you would have
changed, and I think you need to get off yourself about feeling
guilty. Mourn, yes, of course, but don't put it on yourself.
Sincerely,
Cap'n Obvious :-)
.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
>.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 14:56:37 +1300, BrianNZ <br...@itnz.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>>> Look man, things have changed a lot since the seventies and 350cc
>>> Honda's. These days, when you only ride for fun (as opposed to 'daily
>>> riding'), finding the edge is what you are looking for. I have a bike
>>
>> Look, man, nothing has changed except the numbers, and the
>> songs on the radio. Young guys are still young guys.
>
>
>So , as a young man., you used to do wheelies, stoppies, scrape the
>pegs/pipes, see what the top speed was, practice cornering until you
>were right over?
Close :-) Didn't do wheelies / stoppies, but the rest I
did :-) And other stupid shit, too. Big time :-)
>If it's so dangerous, how come I'm not dead?
Luck and the Will of Dog.
entropy_magnet
> Again - anyone's who's going so fast in a turn that they need
> to scrape pegs ' n pipes - is going TOO FUCKING FAST, I don't care who
> they are, or how good, etc. They may be 'good enough to ride that
> ride', but they are treating the public road like their own personal
> race tracks, and THAT is unsafe for others, at the very least.
>
> When you scrape, you are AT the edge. That's it, she ain't
> got no more, no matter who you are. You have no margin to work with,
> and you are pushing the envelope. That is NOT 'safe riding'.
Scraping can be an indication that you didn't set up for the turn properly.
During my ERC, there were plenty of cruiser folks scraping up a storm early
on, but by the end of the course, they were going faster in the same turns
with no scraping. Once you know whats causing it, and how to fix it, its
not a big deal.
Rayvan
.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
> On 30 Nov 2006 16:51:17 -0800, "Rayvan" <rvann...@cachevision.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> You should know, for instance, where your bike breaks traction
> >> or tries to do a stoppie, etc, under braking, and for that matter how
> >> to ride out a skid, etc, but your daily riding should be focused on
> >> NOT NEEDING TO.
> >
> >Gee. Ya think?
>
> Yep.
>
> So, why do you think your friend needed to know 'how to lean
> harder' instead of 'how to ride slower' ? Didn't he need to know HIS
> limits instead of the BIKE's limits ?
Like I said. He *was* riding slow, Captain!
--
Rayvan
.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:
>
>.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
>> On 30 Nov 2006 16:51:17 -0800, "Rayvan" <rvann...@cachevision.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> You should know, for instance, where your bike breaks traction
>> >> or tries to do a stoppie, etc, under braking, and for that matter how
>> >> to ride out a skid, etc, but your daily riding should be focused on
>> >> NOT NEEDING TO.
>> >
>> >Gee. Ya think?
>>
>> Yep.
>>
>> So, why do you think your friend needed to know 'how to lean
>> harder' instead of 'how to ride slower' ? Didn't he need to know HIS
>> limits instead of the BIKE's limits ?
>
>Like I said. He *was* riding slow, Captain!
And you are wrong.
He was riding perhaps slow FOR YOU, or another rider of
different skill level, but he was riding TOO FAST for HIM.
.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
>"Rayvan" <rvann...@cachevision.com> wrote in news:1164997204.520149.14830
>@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com:
>
>> Like I said. He *was* riding slow, Captain!
>
>Give it up, Ray... .p will never admit to being wrong at anything.
Especially when I'm right.
When anyone is in the habit of taking turns where they are
unable to stay in their lane even though they want to and are trying
to, they are going too fast for their own personal riding ability,
they are not in control of where they are headed, and that is a simple
fact.
So 'give it up' yourself.
.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
>.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote in
>news:8cn1n2da3p04n13jg...@4ax.com:
>
>> that is a simple fact.
>
>...and you, obviously, know simple.
And I know you can blow me, asshole.
Alan Moore
>Alan Moore <alan.s...@comcast.net> wrote in
>news:hajsm2d674t0sd84s...@4ax.com:
>
>> "There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old
>> bold pilots."
>
>
>Bull... Who is Chuck Yeager and how "young" is he?
He's an extremely cautious pilot, as are all test pilots. If you think
the checklists that come with the typical airliner are bulky, you
should see the stuff they wade through. Note that bold is note the
same as courageous.
Al Moore
DoD 734
Robert Bolton
"Stephen!" <N...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:Xns988BAE3E...@216.196.97.142...
> Alan Moore <alan.s...@comcast.net> wrote in
> news:hajsm2d674t0sd84s...@4ax.com:
>
>> "There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old
>> bold pilots."
>
>
> Bull... Who is Chuck Yeager and how "young" is he?
>
Robert
timeOday
>
> As a matter of fact Tim, in my mind it gets worse. While I mourn the
> loss of another rider and can feel for the family, I tire of stupid
> riders mounting bikes with way too much power, and then overdriving
> their skills.
>
Just don't let yourself off the hook either. Experienced riders get
killed as well, though less often.
Calgary
But they are less likely to overdrive their skills.
Alan Moore
>Alan Moore <alan.s...@comcast.net> wrote in
>news:mur1n2pmt2crmmbf7...@4ax.com:
>
>>>> "There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no
>>>> old bold pilots."
>>>
>>>Bull... Who is Chuck Yeager and how "young" is he?
>>
>> He's an extremely cautious pilot, as are all test pilots. If you think
>> the checklists that come with the typical airliner are bulky, you
>> should see the stuff they wade through.
>
> Checklists to not create courage, they inspire confidence (and keep you
>from trying to taxi away with the chocks still in place.) The courage
>must already be there or you have no place in the cockpit.
>
>> Note that bold is note the same as courageous.
>
> Perhaps you should contact The American Heritage Dictionary of the
>English Language and tell them they have an incorrect definition for
>"Bold"
I don't recall where it was that I saw it, but, with plenty of
examples, the writer demonstrated that one could proceed along lists
of synonyms and eventually find an antonym to the original word.
>
>bold adj. bold·er, bold·est
> 1. Fearless and daring; courageous.
> 2. Requiring or exhibiting courage and bravery.
>
> The old saw to which you refer is just that, a sententious saying.
>Intended to make young pups stop and think twice about what they intend
>to do next. Effective? Yes. Accurate? No...
>
> Chuck Yeager is the epitome of the Old and Bold pilot.
Ask him. He'll tell you ther are no old bold pilots. As will any
senior licensed pilot.
Al Moore
DoD 734