horror story: Ride West BMW in Seattle (long)
Mark Crispin
Ride West BMW, on Woodlawn Ave. in Seattle, is a BMW motorcycle dealer
that advertises nationally, including the BMW Motorcycle Owners of
America magazine.
I had been going to that dealership for 8 years, back when it was
Buckingham BMW and Bill Buckingham it. Bill was more of a rider and
good old boy than a businessman, and his prices were high, but you
always had a feeling that he would shoot straight with you.
My 1974 R90/6 was modified in several ways; over the years I had added
bags, S-fairing and gauges, Fiamm horns, larger gas tank, and new seat
with new upholstering. Almost everything was purchased at the
dealership, and they did almost all the work. They also did all of
the maintenance work.
I will never go to that dealership again. The chronology listed below
explains why:
October 9, 1997:
I brought in my R90/6 to Ride West BMW for maintenance. A few minor
things were wrong (the light in the tach is out, the center stand is
broken), but basically it was in for routine maintenance.
There was oil residue around the engine seams, but there always has
been the entire 8 years that I've owned the bike. This time, however,
they told me that they are going to do a compression test.
October 10:
I came to pick up the bike. They told me that the compression test
shows that the bike needed an engine rebuild, at a cost of $1500 or
more, and that without it the bike may "throw a rod" at any time.
Because of this, they did no other work on it, not even change the
oil.
They suggested that I may want to trade it in instead of spending the
money to fix it. They show me a 1977 R100RS which they are already
doing an engine rebuild. Their explanation was that a R90/6 is not
valuable except for parts, whereas a R100RS is worth the investment.
They told me that they are waiting for parts on it, but that the work
would be finished in 4 weeks. When the work is finished, they'd sell
it to me for $3600, and give me a $600 credit for the trade.
They tell me that I had to decide by Tuesday, and that I would have to
pay a $200 deposit if I wanted it.
October 11 - 13:
It was bad news for me. My budget was not ready for a $3000
expendicture. However, the thought of being stranded someplace was
worse. It was clear that the added cost of commuting by car would
consume $3000 in a year.
I felt put out at being asked to pay a deposit on a bike that wasn't
ready for sale, and which I couldn't even test ride.
But, at that time, I still trusted them.
October 14:
I came in and paid the $200 deposit.
I decided, though, to get everything that we discussed down in
writing. I wrote a letter to them and made two copies, asking them to
sign it if they agreed to its contents:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This letter summarizes my understanding of what you have
represented to me and what we have agreed. Please confirm that all
this is correct and/or make any necessary amendments.
1) In your professional judgement, my 1974 BMW R90/6 is in need
of an engine rebuild; that without this engine rebuild a catastrophic
failure is likely; and that the cost of an engine rebuild is likely to
exceed the value of the motorcycle.
2) You will accept my 1974 BMW R90/6 as-in for trade-in for
parts, at a value of $600. The radar detector is not part of this
trade. The oil pressure gauge will be removed and installed on the
new bike (see below).
3) You will sell me the blue R100RS that was shown to me on
Friday, October 10 as a replacement. This motorcycle also needs an
engine rebuild, which you will do prior to selling it to me. This
motorcycle will also be thoroughly inspected by you, and any
reasonably forseeable maintenance or repair issues will be taken care
of prior to sale. This will also include checking the in-line fuel
filters, and if appropriate installing the gold ones from the R90/6 or
new ones.
4) The R100RS will be ready approximately 4 weeks from today.
5) In addition to the fairing and other accessories that I saw on
the R100RS on Friday, it also includes bags and toolkit. You will
install the oil pressure gauge and sending unit from my R90/6 on the
R100RS, if possible using the clock mount for the R90/6.
6) The sale price of the R100RS will be $3600 not including tax,
licensing, and trade-in. I will pay a $200 deposit today. In return
for the balance in cash, you will rouind down to an even multiple of
$100 (approximately $30 discount for cash).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This was agreed by Howard and Gina at Ride West. Howard signed it
without making any modifications. I trusted Gina; she's Bill Buckingham's
daughter. What I didn't know is that she's also Howard's significant
other. That becomes important later on.
Section (5) is important. We'll be coming back to that.
Ride West BMW had their own stipulation, which I agreed to:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This motorcycle will be picked up when repairs are completed. Should
Mark Crispin's R90/6 not run at the time of the purchase, he will
receive $400 (not $600) as trade-in value.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A word of explanation about the oil pressure gauge. I don't believe
that one should use any vehicle without an oil pressure gauge, much
less an older one.
My R90/6 had a special installation; the voltmeter and oil pressure
gauge were installed on the fairing, and I had a special stand-alone
mount for the clock (normally, the clock is installed on the fairing).
This is important. We'll be coming back to it.
early November:
I called Ride West BMW to find out about the status of the new bike.
It had been 3 weeks, and I needed to put together the $3000 that I'd
be paying them.
They told me, for the *first* time, that there is a title problem on
the R100RS, so no word has been done on the bike yet. But, that it
was being taken care of, and it'll just be a few weeks more.
I'm left to wonder why they had insisted that I make a decision and
pay a deposit when they didn't even have title. [I later find out
that it was probably illegal for them to have taken a deposit from me.]
But, at that time, I still trusted them.
late November:
I called Ride West BMW again. They said that they are still waiting
for the title, something about waiting for Nevada to send the document
back.
My trust in them is eroding.
late December:
I called Ride West BMW again. Still no progress. They seem to
contradict themselves; are they waiting for the previous owner to give
them the paperwork, or the state of Nevada, or...??
They didn't even had the parts at hand to start the work. So we still
have a 4 week clock that hasn't even started ticking. I pointedly
asked why they didn't order the parts now, so they could start work
right away when the title matter was cleared. They reiterated that
they weren't going to do anything without the title.
They suggested that I should consider another bike, and that they had
an R90/S available. Well, it just so happens that I had reconciled
myself to the trade by the fact that it would be a new generation with
a much better fairing. An R90/S is simply one step up from the bike
that I already had, with the same useless fairing.
I told them that I'd wait, but that I would expect a favor in return
for them making me wait and holding a $200 deposit. They became
unfriendly -- "We can refund your $200."
I am not a very happy camper at this point. They've had my money for
2.5 months, and are jerking me around. [?? What's going on?]
mid January:
I called again. Same story.
January 30:
My R90/6 has been deteriorating rapidly. The tach is totally busted,
the motor is running rough and is hesitating, the battery is dead, and
the brakes are spongy. Roll-starting every time is getting
particularly old; the battery is totally dead. I'm reluctant to put
much more into it than new oil (and it's showing quite a thirst for
oil).
I went to Ride West BMW. Same story again, different variation;
apparently, they got the paperwork back from Nevada but are waiting
for Washington now. Once again, I asked why not start work on the new
bike now? No, they won't until they get the paperwork.
Again, they try to talk me into a different bike. I remind them that
I was not interested in that R90/S. They said that this time, they
had an 1980 R100RT that I should consider, and that it would be $310
less than the R100RS.
I asked why a 1980 R100RT was cheaper than a 1977 R100RS. They said
that an R100RS was more valuable, that's all. I specifically asked,
given that I now knew that the R90/6 had the reputation of being "the
worst bike BMW ever made", if there was any similar black mark on an
R100RT, and said no. [?? Unbelievable, I'm still trusting these
guys?]
I took the R100RT for a test drive. It's running when I mount it. I
turn off the engine, and try to start it. It doesn't turn over.
Howard says something about flipping this add-on toggle switch. The
bike starts this time.
Upon returning, I said "It'll do".
I didn't have the title or my checkbook with me. But I knew that my
plastic would authorize the charge. So I asked, can we just draw up
the papers now, put the full price on my plastic, then tommorrow I'll
come in with a check and the title and we'll tear up the plastic
charge.
Nope. They gave me this story about how their insurance wouldn't
allow an overnight loan. [?? I was talking about paying full price on
plastic to guarantee that I'd be back! What is this? They don't
trust me, after 3.5 months of them jerking me around because I trusted
them??]
They did offer to loan me a battery charger. I refuse it; I have one
at home.
January 31:
I now had my checkbook and the title for the R90/6. I went in to Ride
West BMW, and had the paperwork drawn up.
Uh, wait a minute. This bill of sale shows a $400 trade-in allowance.
Apologies. The paperwork is taken back and drawn up again, with the
correct trade-in allowance ($600). I remind Howard abou the fuel
filters and oil pressure gauge. He writes the following as Notes on
the paperwork:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- includes install 2 fuel filters
- Install (transfer) Oil Pressure gauge
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I sign the purchase order and the disclaimer of warranty, along with
the check and title. I get back copies of these two documents along
with a receipt for my check.
I ask about my personalized license plate. They won't transfer it to
the new bike; they tell me I have to go to a licensing agent and do
it. But they give me the plate from the old bike.
Problem. Now that the tank cover is off the R90/6, they see that the
tank is a different color than the fairing. They come close to
accusing me of switching the tank on them. I remind them that they
sold me that tank as an upgrade years ago, it has been on the bike
since then, and that they still have the original smaller tank (it was
supposed to be sold for me on consignment but never was) somewhere in
their parts warehouse. Gina vaguely remembers; "That's right, that's
why you bought that tank cover."
[Sigh. This has been a long and painful process! I don't have very
good feelings about this dealership any more. Well, I have a new bike
now. Maybe I'll be in a more forgiving mood after I've ridden in for
a while.]
They bring out the new bike, attach the temporary plate, and put in
the fuel filters.
Then they call me over. It seems that, in spite of 8 years of working
on this bike (and having *installed* the damn thing!) they didn't
realize that the oil pressure gauge was a gauge/sending unit and not
some little dongle on the dipstick. It's going to take two hours of
shop work to transfer that oil pressure gauge.
They tell me that they can't do it, and they want to change the
agreement. The following is pretty close to the exact words
exchanged:
Mark: "Wait a minute. We had an agreement in writing, and you signed
it."
Howard: "You're not listening. We can't do..."
Mark: [interrupting] "No, you listen. You have a choice. Either
you execute the agreement that we made and we both signed, or
I leave now. I will then hire a lawyer, and we can both tell
our sides of the story to a judge."
Howard: "All right, I'll put it in, but on the condition that we do
not do business again. This is a motorcycle dealership, not
a place for lawyers."
Mark: "That's fine."
They tell me that they can't do the work that, and schedule an
appointment for February 27.
[What a great way to start off with a new vehicle.]
Gina says that instead of putting the oil pressure gauge in the clock
mount that I had in the old bike, they will install the oil pressure
gauge in the fairing, and keep the clock. She said specifically that
it was "the same configuration that was in the old bike" and asks me
if that's OK.
Well, I don't particularly care if they use the stand-alone mount for
the clock or for the oil pressure gauge. I certainly don't need two
clocks; moving the old clock is just fine with me. Maybe it's just
easier for them not to open up the stand-alone mount.
Little did I know what they had in mind; they don't intend merely to
keep the clock that is in the bike -- they plan to keep both clocks!
What Gina said was ambiguous, but because she said "same configuration"
I had no clue.
By now, I had a very bad feeling about Howard, but I thought that Gina
was honest. I hadn't had much contact with Howard, but Gina had been
there for many years (and she is Bill's daughter). I didn't know
until after it was all over that she's Howard's significant other...
I ride the bike a bit. I decide to look at that toggle switch (that
supposedly kept it from starting). It isn't connected to anything! I
remove it. Hmm. More experimentation. OK, now I understand. It
doesn't start in neutral, it wants the clutch pulled in. I'll have to
fix that some time.
When I came home that evening, there is a message on my answering
machine from them. Howard wants me to call. The time on my Caller ID
box is about the time that I left. Hmm. I wonder if he called to
apologize? Well, they're closed now and will be closed until Tuesday.
If they want to win back my business, they can call me again.
February 9:
The bike has had starting problems. I've had to roll start it a few
times. I've put it on my charger overnight, but two days later, it
does it again.
I go to Seattle Cycle Center on Aurora, and buy a new battery. $100,
ouch! I ask them to test the old one. I install the new battery
myself, and Seattle Cycle Center very kindly lets me use a corner of
their lot to do it.
February 10:
Seattle Cycle Center confirms that the battery does not hold a charge.
Great. So Ride West BMW sold me a bike with a dying battery.
I'm also getting suspicious about the remaining lifetime on the
clutch. It was set with no free play, and I could smell clutch, nor
was there any clutch adjustment left at the handlebar. I adjusted it
at the bottom. Now there's adequate free play and clutch adjustment
at the handlebar, and it no longer smells. But, from the level that I
had to adjust it, I suspect that that clutch looks like Oddjob's hat.
February 14:
There's a message on my answering machine from Ride West. They have
my license plate and registration.
February 17:
I visit Ride West. Howard isn't there. Nobody mentions the
unpleasantness of two weeks earlier, but you could cut the tension
with a knife.
February 26:
I bring the bike in to Ride West for the oil pressure gauge
installation the evening before. Once again, Howard isn't there.
Gina deals with me. I have a more or less amicable conversation about
the bike's maintenance needs (giving her an opening to apologize if
that's what they wanted). Gina suggests "I'd change all the fluids
right away, for your own peace of mind."
I mention, in as off-hand a manner as possible, that the battery
didn't hold a charge and I had to replace it. Gina expresses
surprise; "we had it on the charger every day."
I also mention that the brake light is intermittant for the rear
brake, and that the gas tank overflow hose seems to be missing.
But it's clear that there isn't going to be an apology. OK, let's
make this as pleasant as possible.
February 27:
I come in to to pick up the bike. Gina tells me that the work is
done, that the brake light works fine for the rear brake, [!!No it
doesn't!!] and that the missing gas tank hose isn't important [?? It's
OK for gas to spill on the engine??]. I decide not to argue with her;
I just grunt an "OK".
Gina also wants the battery charger back! [??Huh?] I tell her that I
never took it.
A service tech comes out to bring out the bike. I take a look at it.
Something's missing!
Mark: "Where's the clock?"
Tech: "On the bench."
Mark: "Huh? You were supposed to put the clock on too."
Tech: [pointing to Gina] "Talk to Gina."
Mark: [to Gina] "Where's the clock?"
Gina: "I told you. We are keeping the clock."
Mark: "That was the new one. You were supposed to put the old one on."
Gina: "I said we were going to do the same configuration as your old
bike and you agreed."
Mark: "The configuration had a clock on an external mount."
Gina: "You're not listening. You agreed..."
Mark: [mounting the bike] "OK. That's enough. I'm leaving. You
are a slimy dealership. I'm going to post what happened on
the Internet, I'm going write to Montvale [BMW's corporate
headquarters] and the MOA magazine, and will look into
recovering my loss in court."
Gina: [screaming, jumping in front of the motorcycle to block me,
and ranting about they have lots of customers who love
them, and how I am evil and all I do is threaten them]
Mark: "You are detaining me illegally. Allow me to leave."
Gina: "No, I have not finished with you yet. You..."
Mark: Allow me to leave.
Gina: [...]
Mark: Allow me to leave.
Gina: [...]
Mark: Allow me to leave.
She finally moves out of my way.
March 4:
While riding home from Kingston after midnight, I stop at a stop sign
about 2 miles from my house. The bike stalls. Grr. Try to start it.
What? It's not cranking (not enough to start, anyway)? It's in the
mid-30s outside, but this is a month-old battery, in a hot motor
that's just been running solidly at 50MPH for 20 miles. The voltmeter
shows the battery voltage at just less than 11 volts, a bit low but
not in the red zone. Not only that, but it had started without any
problem on a cold motor just 25 minutes earlier.
The nearest hill is a over a block away; the road here is flat. I try
push-starting it. It coughs and stalls. I try again, this time after
a fit of coughing it catches and runs. Just as soon as I get home, I
stop the motor and try to start it again. Once again, it won't crank.
I put it on the charger.
March 5:
The voltmeter reads much the same, but the bike starts without
complaint or any hint of the previous night's problem. I'm starting
to think that last night's problem may not have electrical.
While riding to work, the clutch cable breaks. Fortunately, the
remnants survived enough to get me to the office parking lot, and I
always carry a spare clutch cable.
About the two bikes:
I still don't know how bad my old bike really was. For all I know,
all it may have needed was minor maintenance. I trusted them for
entirely too long.
I still don't know the full story about the condition of the new bike.
I need to find a new maintenance shop -- and this time I'm going to be
much more careful in selection! -- and give it a thorough going-over.
As far as I know so far so far, the new bike's problem set is:
1) Needed new battery. How well the charging system works is still
unknown.
2) Doesn't start unless clutch is pulled in, even in neutral.
3) Oil pressure gauge shows pressure of greater than 150 PSI (it's
pinned) on a cold start. Gradually becomes lower and more
believable. Did they screw up the installation, or is the pressure
really that high? If so, am I in danger of blowing a gasket?
Could this be related to the starting problems?
4) Clutch life questionable.
5) Brake light not reliable with rear brake.
6) Clutch cable was near the end of its useful life.
And, I spent $3000 which I didn't have. I'll have to see whether or
not the bike is worth it.
Post-mortem musings:
I find myself bewildered at the whole chain of events. Granted, I was
an idiot to have trusted them. I didn't know Howard or the new owners,
but they had seemed to be on the up-and-up and determined to be quite
professional.
I couldn't believe the chutzpah at demanding a deposit and quick
decision to hold the R100RT when they did not have legal title. Nor
could I understand their attitude.
Given that they were holding $200 of my money for 3.5 months, I would
have expected that they'd be bending over backwards to accomodate me.
I can't understand their position at all. As far as I can tell from
what I heard them say, their position is something like:
1) They are allowed to break a written agreement if they discover that
it requires two hours of labor that they didn't expect.
2) The words "Same configuration" do not really mean "same
configuration". They mean "same configuration on a particular
small portion, but different in a related portion".
3) A written agreement that specifically intends that the bike have
both a clock and an oil pressure gauge ("if possible using the
clock mount for the R90/6" given that a mount was an external
stand-alone mount), and nothing about the bike having no clock at
all, can be modified by ambiguous oral statements.
Nor do I understand why I deserved this treatment. They were *very*
solicitous at the start; they were so nice, and talking about how much
they cared that I not be stranded someplace. True, they pressured me,
and made me put down a deposit on a bike that they didn't have the
legal right to tell.
I waited patiently for three and a half months. In that time, I
turned down higher private purchase offers for the R90/6 (twice I was
approached by guys who wanted it for a rat bike). I felt that we had
a deal and I don't like breaking deals (nor do I like deal-breakers).
The only nasty thing that I ever said was when I called them a "slimy
dealership" at the very end. I thought worse, but I kept a civil
tongue.
Up until the very end, I was debating whether or not to make this
story public. I had decided that, as long as they eventually made
good on all their promises, I'd keep my mouth shut and quietly find
another shop. This last nasty little business over the clock (a
clock, of all dinky things!) was the straw that broke the camel's
back.
But the bottom line is:
1) they demanded and took $200 deposit from me for a bike that they
didn't have legal title (something which is probably illegal in
this state)
2) they still have something of mine which does not belong to them (a
clock and its mounting hardware).
-- Mark --
* Unsolicited commercial email is NOT welcome at this email address. *
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Mark Crispin
On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Mark Crispin wrote:
> Gina deals with me. I have a more or less amicable conversation about
> the bike's maintenance needs (giving her an opening to apologize if
> that's what they wanted). Gina suggests "I'd change all the fluids
> right away, for your own peace of mind."
To clarify; Gina was not volunteering to change the fluids, rather she was
telling me that I should do so. Elsewhere.
Quite a lot of chutzpah for a dealer to sell a bike without fresh fluids
in it.
Joe Brooks
Wow! What a story.
30 years ago I had a new car that did not run properly. I went through a
hassle with the dealer similar to what you went through with bikes. Finally,
the dealer said "I don't know what else to do with this car." I drove it
across town, traded it for another make, new and properly serviced. That
afternoon I drove to the original dealer and asked them to come outside.
When the dealer, service manager and mechanic came outside, I told them
"this is what you do with the car you can't fix. Needless to say the
original dealer was out of business in a short time.
Maybe you ought to do something similar. And take you lawyer with you.
Certainly in a city the size of Seattle there is a reputable dealer that can
fix your bike or at least sell you one that he will stand behind.
Good luck.
Regards,
Joe
Mark Crispin wrote in message ...
>Ride West BMW, on Woodlawn Ave. in Seattle, is a BMW motorcycle dealer
>that advertises nationally, including the BMW Motorcycle Owners of
>America magazine....
>
Some Guy on a Bike
<horror story snipped>
This would not be the first time I had seen some real shysters running
BMW shops (I used to work for one in Schenectady, NY). This is NOT a
condemnation of BMW in general, but the truth is, they have NO handle
on their franchisees (IMHO), and their parts importation status is
DISMAL.
Now, I happen to LOVE BMWs. I think they are incredible bikes, and
someday I'd love to own an R90/S and a K75S. Maybe even something
newer, if I can afford it.
What happened to you was totally inexcusable. I would IMMEDIATELY go
to the Attorney Generral's office, with every piece of documentation
and every supportive witness you can find, and have everything
straightened out. That is what the AG is there for.
I wish you luck.
===========================================================================
Adam Wade espr...@winternet.com
CIMC #1 DoD #2009 LOMP #2 "The only way I'll stop riding
1976 Kawasaki KZ750 twin (Betty) is if I stop breathing."
http://www.winternet.com/~espresso
===========================================================================
mull...@advinc.com
In article <Pine.NXT.4.00.98030...@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM>,
Mark Crispin <m...@Panda.COM> wrote:
>
> Post-mortem musings:
>
> -- Mark --
Wow. Clearly they think you are the customer from hell (wonder how
many folks have this kind of experience with a dealership) and you
consider them to be the antichrist. I kinda doubt that anyone is
going to be changing their mind in the near future.
Be that as it may, I sure am sorry to hear of your tale of woe.
Nothing I could say would change any of it, but here are some comments:
Do your own work on your bike. This stuff can't happen to me, because
I would personally never trust a dealership to *do* a compression
check on any of my vehicles, much less attempt to interpret the results.
They must be stone geniuses there, if they can determine when the
rod is going to grenade the motor, just from doing a comression
check. These bikes are not that tough to work on, and the causes
of low compression (worn rings or valve problems) are relatively
straightforward to correct. The oil consumption is another matter,
if you have eaten a big end bearing this is somewhat tougher to deal
with, but not impossible. The bottom ends on these bikes (/6s)
are notorious for being bullet-proof to a large degree.
Also sounds like no matter *what* bike you are on, you really need
to gain a practical understanding about the electrics. One does
not fix an ailing electrical system by simply adding $100 to it in
the form of a new battery. There's a *lot* of literature out there,
and most of it is pretty good.
Yes, you are paying these folks to do stuff to the bike. Yes you
have a right to have it done right. However, nobody gives a shit
about your bike in exactly the same way that you, the owner does.
Because it is you who will be stranded in the cold, dark raining
night when the asshole mechanic at the dealership left that stupid
circlip out, and the clutch pivot rod finally dropped out and the
throwout lever dropped away onto the road about 5 miles ago.
*He's* at home in a warm bed getting laid. So you have every
right and indeed responsibility to understand exactly *what* that
circlip does, where it *is*, and *who* installed it, and *how* it
was done. And if they screwed it up, you have to recognize the
screwup, and forcefully point out to the dealership
the error of their ways, and if perchance they don't care, then you
have the unfortunate task of explaining to the dealership why you
cannot trust them to work on your ride. Because of a 15 cent
circlip. And if you keep going back there, you know deep down
inside that nothing good can come of the relationship.
Which is an incredibly long-winded way (sorry) of pointing out
that if you do this shit yourself, you will never have to get into
these time-consuming cluster-fuck experiences with an organization that
(face it) just wants to make money disappear from your wallet and
magically re-appear in their cash register. And sometimes the
600 number accidentally becomes 400. Oh well.
I wish you the best of luck on all this.
Jim
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
JC
Mark Crispin <m...@Panda.COM> wrote:
>Ride West BMW, on Woodlawn Ave. in Seattle, is a BMW motorcycle dealer
>that advertises nationally, including the BMW Motorcycle Owners of
>America magazine.
>
[rest of story snipped]
It's clearly time to play hardball. I would immediately do the
following:
1. Write down or print out the text of your post. Make a photocopy
and mail the original to yourself. Don't open the envelope when it
arrives. Here's why: a sealed envelope with a US Mail postmark is
considered proof of dating. The contents of the envelope (with the
dated postmark) _proves_ that you wrote down the sequence of events
exactly as they occurred soon after they reached a conclusion, which
is much more likely to be accurate than trying to remember all the
events a couple of months from now. The photocopy is to ensure you
remember exactly what you wrote should you need to discuss your
situation with an attorney (see below).
2. Go to the public library's reference desk, and using the Who's Who
in Business (maybe the Who Owns Whom - the librarian will know) find
out who the CEO/President of BMW North America is. Don't waste time
with a PO box for customer service or an 800 customer service number -
go straight to the top. Fire off a letter to him with the exact text
of what you have written here. Make sure you indicate on the BMW
letter that you sent copies of the letter to the WA Atty General, the
WA consumer protection agency, the Seattle Better Business Bureau, the
Seattle Chamber of Commerce, and the owner of the dealer (send the
letter to them too, don't just threaten to). That should get the
CEO's attention. Again, keep copies of all the letters and make sure
you send the BMW executive's letter and the AG's letter US Mail,
certified with return receipt requested, so you can prove delivery if
need be.
3. Follow up later in the week with phone calls to the following
local/state organizations and make sure they got your letters: Chamber
of Commerce, Better Business Bureau, and _especially_ the Atty
General's office. That's what the AG's for. Also contact the state's
consumer protection bureau. Now would be a good time to contact any
local riders' associations or clubs (word of mouth can be very
effective),
4. Contact the local newspaper's local news editor or a reporter and
tell them your story. Sounds like a human interest feature to me.
5. If after a week or so (two weeks if you're feeling soft) you don't
hear from the BMW executive, send him a _collect telegram_. This is
sure to get his attention and he'll know you're serious.
6. If there's still no response at this point, you've got a battle on
your hands. Up to this point you havent' incurred much expense, but
now I'd consider retaining an attorney. It's going to get ugly.
The above is an approach that has worked for me in the past when I
felt I was unfairly treated when _I_ acted in good faith but the
counterparty did not. As yet I haven't had to use a lawyer.
You can respond/contact me offline if you want. Good luck.
*************
JC
94 Integra GS-R
84 Honda Nighthawk S
Peter Dimas
In article <3502ce46...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, opt...@count.com (JC) wrote:
>Mark Crispin <m...@Panda.COM> wrote:
>
>>Ride West BMW, on Woodlawn Ave. in Seattle, is a BMW motorcycle dealer
>>that advertises nationally, including the BMW Motorcycle Owners of
>>America magazine.
>>
>
>It's clearly time to play hardball. I would immediately do the
>following:
Unfortunately, now is a little late to do things in a "civilized" manner,
and you're probably right, it'll require some hardball... But, I think the
main problem stems from Mr. Crispin not cutting his losses earlier.
Example: My parents wanted to buy a used Mercedes from a dealer in
Oklahoma City. My brother and I test drove it, and thought they (my parents)
would be pleased with the condition of the car. The car looked great inside
and out. It even drove allright around town. We paid for the car with a
company check and drove it home. When my parents drove it, they complained
about the amount of road noise. We spoke with the dealer and he claimed that
the tires on the car were "aggressive" and would transmit more road noise than
stock tires. The car also suffered from a slight front-end vibration at any
speed over 70 mph. We ended up taking the car to Big Red Sports and Imports
on I-35 for an inspection. The inspector determined that the car had been
wrecked, and two of the body panels were not original. We had him write his
findings on the bill of sale. We then took the car back to the dealership,
dropped off the car with a copy of the inspectors bill, stopped payment on the
check and lived happily ever after.
The moral? You're in control when it comes to the purchase of a vehicle.
If you don't buy it, the dealer knows he can sell it to some other schmuck.
It's not worth his time or money to take you to court... He may call you
names, and be a pain in the ass, but screw him... He's there to serve you.
Peter
---
......Peter Dimas | pe...@medicomp.net.......
Medicomp Consulting, LLC | Ph (405) 292-6864.
..........Medical Computer Services..........
...........http://www.medicomp.net...........
JC
>pdi...@medicomp.net (Peter Dimas) wrote:
>In article <3502ce46...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, opt...@count.com (JC) wrote:
>>Mark Crispin <m...@Panda.COM> wrote:
>>
>>>Ride West BMW, on Woodlawn Ave. in Seattle, is a BMW motorcycle dealer
>>>that advertises nationally, including the BMW Motorcycle Owners of
>>>America magazine.
>>>
>>[rest of story snipped]
>>
>>It's clearly time to play hardball. I would immediately do the
>>following:
>
> Unfortunately, now is a little late to do things in a "civilized" manner,
>and you're probably right, it'll require some hardball... But, I think the
>main problem stems from Mr. Crispin not cutting his losses earlier.
I agree. But with that said, now it's time to attempt to recover some
losses.
>
> Example: My parents wanted to buy a used Mercedes from a dealer in
>Oklahoma City. My brother and I test drove it, and thought they (my parents)
>would be pleased with the condition of the car. The car looked great inside
>and out. It even drove allright around town. We paid for the car with a
>company check and drove it home. When my parents drove it, they complained
>about the amount of road noise. We spoke with the dealer and he claimed that
>the tires on the car were "aggressive" and would transmit more road noise than
>stock tires. The car also suffered from a slight front-end vibration at any
>speed over 70 mph. We ended up taking the car to Big Red Sports and Imports
>on I-35 for an inspection. The inspector determined that the car had been
>wrecked, and two of the body panels were not original. We had him write his
>findings on the bill of sale. We then took the car back to the dealership,
>dropped off the car with a copy of the inspectors bill, stopped payment on the
>check and lived happily ever after.
I did the same thing with a 86 Honda Accord. I drove it and thought
there was a lot of road noise and a "groaning" in the front
suspension. The couple I was buying it from said it was the tires and
swore up and down it was never wrecked, though I thought it suspicious
that their service records started at about 5,000 miles. So I took it
in to the local Honda dealer and the first thing the mechanic asked me
was "You know this car's been wrecked, right?" After he showed me the
details, things I would never have seen myself in spite of being a car
guy, I couldn't believe it. That was the best 36 bucks I _ever_
spent. A cheap lesson that nobody's invulnerable to a scam.
>
> The moral? You're in control when it comes to the purchase of a vehicle.
Absolutely.
>If you don't buy it, the dealer knows he can sell it to some other schmuck.
Yep.
>It's not worth his time or money to take you to court... He may call you
>names, and be a pain in the ass, but screw him... He's there to serve you.
True. In this BMW case I think the dealer didn't act in good faith
and it's up to Mr. Crispin to get his $3000 back using all legal means
available to him, especially drawing the attention of the BMW
corporate executives.
>
>Peter
>
>
>---
>......Peter Dimas | pe...@medicomp.net.......
>Medicomp Consulting, LLC | Ph (405) 292-6864.
>..........Medical Computer Services..........
>...........http://www.medicomp.net...........
LJ Cox
Sure the dealer is a dickhead and he jacked Mark around, but let's keep
this in perspective folks. We're talking about buying an 11-year old
bike for $3,600 bucks at a BMW dealer. The president of BMW ain't
gonna, nor should he, give a rip. I'm sure Mark wishes that he'd
listened to the little bell going off in his head last fall, but he let
his heart and sense of trust take over. We've all been there. The best
thing he can do now is to make undoing the deal the easiest, most
desirable course for the dealership and chalk it up to experience.
I've gone the BBB route before, and they don't do shit unless there have
been other complaints, so don't waste a lot of effort there. The rest of
the shit mentioned below is just costly time-consuming busy-work that
will just get you more riled up.
Take the bike back, ask for a refund or you'll sue and then follow
through, period.
JC wrote:
>
> Mark Crispin <m...@Panda.COM> wrote:
>
> >Ride West BMW, on Woodlawn Ave. in Seattle, is a BMW motorcycle dealer
> >that advertises nationally, including the BMW Motorcycle Owners of
> >America magazine.
> >
> [rest of story snipped]
>
> It's clearly time to play hardball. I would immediately do the
> following:
>
blystyr
>Sure the dealer is a dickhead and he jacked Mark around, but let's keep
>this in perspective folks. We're talking about buying an 11-year old
>bike for $3,600 bucks at a BMW dealer.
The particular bike involved really does not matter. The fact is that
if there's a BMW dealer out there who's jerking people around, the CEO
of BMW Motorcycles better give a damn about it. There are alot of
other high end bikes competing with BMW, and there aren't a whole lot
of BMW dealers in Puget Sound. If one of these few dealers is making
a bad reputation for themselves, it will impact BMW's sales in the
region.
I had a similar experience with the largest Suzuki dealer in the
Seattle area. I had a Bandit 400 that had chronic carbureation
problems. I brought the bike to this dealer for service (quite
frequently); they usually fixed the symptoms but never the root
problem. They were the closest dealer and I was pretty chummy with
them since I sold them computer systems and helped out with their
network occasionally. I was a loyal customer.
After installing some Accel coils (purchased from this dealer), my
ignition mysteriously smoked. Chalked it up to a bad ignition, bought
another ($350), and had them install it. About a mile from the dealer
my bike sputters to a halt. I walked back to the dealer and they sent
the truck out.
They brought the bike into the shop and were revving it a lot, trying
to invoke the problem again. All of a sudden the bike went from it's
4 cylinder cadence to a sickly, two cylinder stumble. Another dead
ignition.
To shorten the tale, it was detirmined that the coils they sold me
were faulty, yet it took nearly 6 months to get them to own up to
their responsibility and fix the bike.
The final kick in the teeth came when I wanted to trade it off on a
Bandit 600. They said that, due to the way Suzuki set up it's
financing, I'd have to pay full price (not get the $600 year-end
incentive). I went to another Suzuki dealer and they'd never heard of
such a thing. Guess where I bought my bike.
I learned 2 things from this ordeal:
1. Do your own service. I've never been much of a mechanic, but I've
found most repairs and services are not very technical. If your
careful and don't rush you'll be fine. I'd rather invest the money in
tools and books and learn something in the process than pay
exhorbitant rates to some shop monkey who may or may not do it right.
Nobody cares about your bike as much as you do.
2. Businesses usually make poor friends. They want your money, end
of story. They will feign friendship to that end, but when something
goes wrong that "friendship" quickly erodes into protection of the
bottom line. I now shop purely on price and availability- if that
means going across the street or mail order from time to time, well
too bad.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Skippy at Isomedia upon Com
---------------------
'96 Suzuki Bandit 600
Dave Emerson
Mark Crispin wrote:
> am I in danger of blowing a gasket?
After that lot? I should say so...
Dave
mull...@advinc.com
In article <350448d5.423381690@newssvr>,
blystyr@hotmail*.com wrote:
>
> 1. Do your own service. I've never been much of a mechanic, but I've
> found most repairs and services are not very technical. If your
> careful and don't rush you'll be fine. I'd rather invest the money in
> tools and books and learn something in the process than pay
> exhorbitant rates to some shop monkey who may or may not do it right.
> Nobody cares about your bike as much as you do.
Agreed 100%. Cf my post above. You can buy a lot of tools for
the money a dealer charges to work on your ride.
>
> 2. Businesses usually make poor friends. They want your money, end
> of story. They will feign friendship to that end, but when something
> goes wrong that "friendship" quickly erodes into protection of the
> bottom line. I now shop purely on price and availability- if that
> means going across the street or mail order from time to time, well
> too bad.
Also quite right. But if you do find a dealership that is ethical
and fair, by all means patronize them. Example: I purchase a lot
of parts for BMWs at AMOL in Dumont, NJ. Why? The parts manager,
Carl Berwer (shamless plug here...) knows his stuff, and has steered
me in the right direction during several re-builds. If
they sell a part that is not right, they will take it back and
give credit or the right one in exchange.
Plus they let me attack all their used electrical bits with various
test instruments before buying. After a number of go-rounds with
Capitol Cycle I really appreciate being able to fondle the
merchandise before plunking down the cash. I am not affiliated with
AMOL, but do believe that the "good" stories need to be propogated
along with the "horrors."
Michael Rosier
>
> 1. Do your own service. I've never been much of a mechanic, but I've
> found most repairs and services are not very technical. If your
> careful and don't rush you'll be fine. I'd rather invest the money in
> tools and books and learn something in the process than pay
> exhorbitant rates to some shop monkey who may or may not do it right.
> Nobody cares about your bike as much as you do.
>
> of story. They will feign friendship to that end, but when something
> goes wrong that "friendship" quickly erodes into protection of the
> bottom line. I now shop purely on price and availability- if that
> means going across the street or mail order from time to time, well
> too bad.
>
>
>
>
> Skippy at Isomedia upon Com
> ---------------------
> '96 Suzuki Bandit 600
Damn straight!
I really enjoy working on my bike as long as it's somthing I can fix and
doesn't keep me off the road for too long. I didn't think I would like it
at first because I hate working on cars.
When I couldn't figure out what was wrong with my Shadow last fall I
finally broke down and took it to the shop and had them do a diognostic on
it. After getting me to buy a new battery (they said I would need a new
one befor they could find the problem, which sounded kinda fishy to me),
they eventually told me that I had a bad stator and that it had killed my
old battery. I said "thank you", asked for my bill, paid for the battery
and diognostic, and took my bike home (after showing the mechanic how to
put the battery and starter relay back in). I then ordered a stator out
of a catalog and fixed it myself in less time than it took them to tell me
what was wrong with it.
So, I had learned something new that can go wrong with my motorcycle, how
to check for it, and how to fix it. And I didn't give thoes crooks nearly
as much money as they would have liked. Although I still kinda wonder
about that battery.
It would almost be worth the extra money if they could get your bike
running sooner than you could. But that usually isn't the case.
=====================================================================
Michael Rosier ros...@zoomnet.net
85 VT700C southern LimbOhio
Performa 6300CD (how low can you go?)
=====================================================================