Harleys really worth the $$$?

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kingf...@my-deja.com

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Oct 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/16/00
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Been thinking about a new HD, and going back and forth over the money
issue. I like the Fat Boy, and now that it has the balance shaft engine
I'm seriously considering it. But, I like the look and ride of the Wide
Glide. Seeing as the dealers here in CT get around 3k over retail, I'm
considering yet another Jap bike. A new Fat Boy or FXDWG will cost me
around 18k, whereas I can get on a Valkyrie for under 12k. I plan to
keep this next bike for a long time, so the investment argument doesn't
mean that much to me. Just not sure if it's worth paying so much for a
toy with a 6 month riding season. And, I'd be splitting that time by
being on my boat as well. Like to get input from HD owners or others.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

sign...@my-deja.com

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Oct 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/16/00
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In article <8sfrq3$5rf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Kingfish:
I will try to help you out here, from the stand point of one who owns
an H-D, as well as a couple of Jap bikes, two fine Italians and a
German.
IMHO, even the MSRP for a new H-D is too hig, except for the low end
models, and who wants one of them, right? To have to pay over that
price is ridiculous, and borders on masochism, again IMHO. But if you
REALLY want that brand, you'll have to pay for it. Is it worth it? Who
can say, technically (and technilogically) I'd say no. But how much is
image and mystique worth to YOU?
If you want to keep the bike for a long time and are not concerned
about the ever so touted "re-sale value" them my suggestion is to go
with the Valkyrie. It is a machine unto itself, no imitation of
anything, and it'll kick-ass on any other bike in its class, and many
even out of its class. You don't have to worry about its reliability,
the maintanence is easy, and it'll run and run and run. It is
comfortable, easy to handle, very responsive, VERY quick and VERY fast
(for nearly 800 pounds), quiet (this may not be a virtue to some) but
you can make it way loud(!).
Plus, if I were going to put up the kind of money H-D wants, I'd want
to live in an area where you could at least have the option of riding
it all year!

So you've got ask yourself a few questions; not the least of which
being, "do I want to pay for poser rights, or do I want to ride"? Of
course, the Valkyrie being unique how it is, one can certainly pose
while out on it!

Good luck...either way, get what YOU really feel you want, not what
someone else, or worse yet some ad exec tells you what you *should*
have.

Jeff W.

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Oct 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/16/00
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In article <8sfrq3$5rf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
kingf...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Been thinking about a new HD, and going back and forth over the money
> issue. I like the Fat Boy, and now that it has the balance shaft
engine

This may sound simplistic, but HDs are worth exactly what you pay for
them: no more and no less. It's a buyer's market and every individual
has their own threshhold of pain when it comes to sticker shock. I
would never buy a Harley for the simple reason that I would never pay
$18,000 - $20,000 for a motorcycle. It has nothing to do with brand.
The local Honda dealer here is selling brand-new '98 Valkyries for
under $10,000 with full factory warranty.

Jeff

DwP

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Oct 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/16/00
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On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 21:26:37 GMT, kingf...@my-deja.com wrote:

>Like to get input from HD owners or others.

Get thee on the internet and contact HD dealers all over the country. Just
because they're charging $3000 over list where you are doesn't mean they are
doing that everywhere. You may have to wait some but as the riding season is
nearly over that shouldn't be all that much of a concern. I've found a HUGE
difference in price by shopping around all over the country. If your local
dealer is an extortionist then find a different dealer.

You may have to pay for the freight but $3000 will go a long way. Or better
yet, fly there and drive it home.

Have fun shopping.

--
Never squat with your spurs on.

C. Bybee

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Oct 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/16/00
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Scored my Triumph off the Internet for way less than M.S.R.P., then flew to
L.A. and rode it back to Denver (shipping would have only been another $250,
but why miss the chance to ride when the plane fare was free on frequent
flyer miles). Don't be held hostage by local prices on bikes. Since I am a
totally stumped by what people see in HD's I can't comment on what to pay
for one other than saying that paying a premium over factory price is stupid
regardless of make. The Internet makes it easy to compare "local" markets
and find some place better to make a deal.

Chris B.

<kingf...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8sfrq3$5rf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...


> Been thinking about a new HD, and going back and forth over the money
> issue. I like the Fat Boy, and now that it has the balance shaft engine

> I'm seriously considering it. But, I like the look and ride of the Wide
> Glide. Seeing as the dealers here in CT get around 3k over retail, I'm
> considering yet another Jap bike. A new Fat Boy or FXDWG will cost me
> around 18k, whereas I can get on a Valkyrie for under 12k. I plan to
> keep this next bike for a long time, so the investment argument doesn't
> mean that much to me. Just not sure if it's worth paying so much for a
> toy with a 6 month riding season. And, I'd be splitting that time by

> being on my boat as well. Like to get input from HD owners or others.

Dan Nitschke

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Oct 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/16/00
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"Jeff W." wrote:

> This may sound simplistic, but HDs are worth exactly what you pay for
> them: no more and no less.

It's not simplistic; it's the definition of "worth".

I paid a lot of money for my motorcycle... but it's
worth that to me. Someone else may not think it's
worth that much money... to them.

We're both right.

The bottom line is: do you think it's worth it to
you to spend that money for what you get? I can't
answer that for you.
--

/* dan: The Anti-Ged, BOF #26, GAGARPHOF (tm) #1, LCDB (tm) #1 */

Dan Nitschke )) peDA...@idiom.com (( (.)@(.....).net
=-|-==-|-==-|-==-|-==-|-==-|-==-|-==-|-==-|-==-|-==-|-=
Y'know, I remember a time when things were a lot more
fun around here; when Good was good, and Evil was evil.
-- Don Henley, "In the Garden of Allah"

Jon

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Oct 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/16/00
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The Harley's are nice in their own way, but you'll pay big to get one and
keep paying to keep it serviced and maintain the warranty. Do some web
surfing and checkout the reliability issues before you take a second
mortgage to buy a porker. I tasted the Harley flavor this year and found
it to be artificial. The overall build and finish quality is very nice,
but there are disappointments. The Japanese still offer the best value and
highest reliability.


Flash - DoD #412

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Oct 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/16/00
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I ain't sayin' a WORD on this subject.
Certain folks need to take note.

- Flash - DoD #412
- http://www.deathstar.org/~flash


Vertilli

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Oct 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/16/00
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<kingf...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8sfrq3$5rf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Been thinking about a new HD, and going back and forth over the money
> issue. I like the Fat Boy, and now that it has the balance shaft engine
> I'm seriously considering it. But, I like the look and ride of the Wide
> Glide. Seeing as the dealers here in CT get around 3k over retail, I'm
> considering yet another Jap bike. A new Fat Boy or FXDWG will cost me
> around 18k, whereas I can get on a Valkyrie for under 12k. I plan to
> keep this next bike for a long time, so the investment argument doesn't
> mean that much to me. Just not sure if it's worth paying so much for a
> toy with a 6 month riding season. And, I'd be splitting that time by
> being on my boat as well. Like to get input from HD owners or others.
>
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.


I was in the same boat as you a short time ago....let me save you some time.
Buy a Yamaha Roadstar Silverado and be done with it.

Great bike, great handling, great power/torque, great ride, *fantastic*
looks and will save you anywhere from $6000 to $11000!!! I was gonna get
the Heritage Softail (actually had one on order) and just flat gave up. Too
much money and my buddy who just bought one 6 months ago, has already had it
in the shop for a retune and to fix a lifter cover that came loose and
spread oil everywhere. I rented one for a ride up to OKC to meet him when
he got his and ride back to Dallas and just wasn't impressed. It's *still*
a Harley, ifyaknowhatImean.

Another thing, if you can get a Fat Boy for $18000....BUY IT!! I haven't
seen one around here for less than $19500.....most hover around $22000.

Sincerely,


Vertilli

mortimer snerd

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Oct 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/16/00
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In article <8sfrq3$5rf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, kingf...@my-deja.com wrote:

> Been thinking about a new HD, and going back and forth over the money
> issue.

#1 : Go Look at this site before you do anything else. Otherwise you are
wasting yours and everyone elses time. This will give you the lowdown on
HD dealerships by name and location from the people who dealt with them,
pro and con, no pulled punches, no baloney. The everlovin' $tealers and
Dealers page :


http://www.hawgeye.com/sd.htm

Now that you have an idea of who the good dealers are in your area, it
becomes a very simple decision. Do you really want the HD? Answer the
question with a simple "yes" or "no". Don't try to equivocate, explain or
justify it, a simple answer is the best. Yes or No ? That will clear up
things for you and let the rest of the process proceed easily no matter
how you decide.

I am a multiple bike owner and I absolutely love my 2000 Road King. It
has been flawless so far and a joy to ride. I went with a dealer who was
not in my immediate area because the local guys are thieves. I got a great
deal on the exact model and color I wanted and the dealer support after
the sale has been top notch. I also love my BMWs. The HD and BMW are very
different machines with different attributes and they fill different roles
for me. I would have no problems riding cross-country on either one.

Get what you really and truly want. Only then will you be truly happy and
not wondering "what if" or "I shoulda/coulda" Remember, you can always
sell it and HD depreciate far more slowly than any other bike. Look at
the Motorcycle Consumer News (US) price guides for evidence of that fact.
Motorcycles are not an investment item, so don't look to make money on it,
they are big toys. Unsold, brand new 1998 bikes on a showroom should make
you wonder as to why they are unsold, and you will take a depreciation pop
if you get one.

Looking for a deal on a budget ? If you shop around, you can probably
find a very low mileage used HD from an owner that just wasn't cut out to
be a rider. Lots of folks thought they wanted a motorcycle and found out
they didn't after they bought one. You may find a good deal and profit
from their folly. That's how I found my /5 years ago.

You may also want to bring this up in the alt.moto.harley group and get
some information there. There's a penchant for Harley bashing on
rec.moto. but the reality is the current HD Big Twins are damn nice
machines if that is the bike you really want. That's really the question,
what do YOU want ?

jm

'73 R75/5
'99 R1100RT
'00 FLHRCI
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day
Teach a man to troll and he will laugh his ass off"©

mortimer snerd

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Oct 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/16/00
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In article <39EB9D85...@REMOVE.deathstar.org>, Flash - DoD #412
<Fl...@REMOVE.deathstar.org> wrote:

We're very proud of you Flash. You get a gold star on your chart and a
note home to Mom. :D

jm

mortimer snerd

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Oct 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/16/00
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In article <iabnusc43fg3p09pe...@4ax.com>,
aki....@worldnet.att.net wrote:


>
> And, IMHO, you'll never truly enjoy a "compromise" bike.
>
> Finally, what's important...as always, is not *what* you ride but that
> you *do* ride.

DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING !!!!

We have the winning response, thank you all for playing ! :D

mortimer snerd

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Oct 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/16/00
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In article <39eda3ed.5018981@news>, langkd_...@home.com (Road Glidin'
Don) wrote:


> From reading some of the messages here, it is clear that some people
> simply regard bikes as toys. I think that's sort of an odd view, but
> people are welcome to their own opinions.

I dont think this applies to me, but I did use the word "toy" in a post on
the thread, so let me clarify my take just in case...

Anything that reliably and safely carries you around is transportation,
ergo, the $1500 paint faded crapmobile will suffice. Anything better than
that, be it a Cadillac, Wide Glide, Porsche, Hayabusa, etc is a toy. It's
nice, but it's not mandatory to get you from point A to point B. Bread
and water will keep you alive, but a nice Filet and Chateau Margeaux is a
helluva lot better.

For most people, motorcycles are toys. Like Don, however, my Road King is
my regular transportation and I love it. It's hardly necessary and
certainly there are safer methods of getting around so by my personal
definition it's a toy, albeit a very practical one.

Regardless, Don is absolutely right, as were the others who also said
get/ride what makes you happy because life is too damn short to wait to
enjoy it.

Stevie Gee

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Oct 16, 2000, 8:17:41 PM10/16/00
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My best friend just bought himself a V-star 1100 classic from Yamaha and has
Harley owners fooled, even one who was the owner/manager of a Harley
dealership. The bike is well engineered and a beautiful machine. He could
have dropped the 10 to 15 grand (Canadian) more on the Harley, but he would
not necessarily like it more. She gets plenty of attention all black and
decked out in her chrome...

Stevie
"Ride for Inner Peace"
http://www.zenriders.com

"Jon" <jtec@#cnw.com> wrote in message
news:01c037c6$067420a0$418195cf@crmqusve...

csoto

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Oct 16, 2000, 8:29:37 PM10/16/00
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In article <8sfrq3$5rf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, kingf...@my-deja.com wrote:

>Been thinking about a new HD, and going back and forth over the money

>issue. I like the Fat Boy, and now that it has the balance shaft engine
>I'm seriously considering it. But, I like the look and ride of the Wide
>Glide. Seeing as the dealers here in CT get around 3k over retail, I'm
>considering yet another Jap bike. A new Fat Boy or FXDWG will cost me
>around 18k, whereas I can get on a Valkyrie for under 12k. I plan to
>keep this next bike for a long time, so the investment argument doesn't
>mean that much to me. Just not sure if it's worth paying so much for a
>toy with a 6 month riding season. And, I'd be splitting that time by
>being on my boat as well. Like to get input from HD owners or others.


I just spent four days surrounded by thousands of Harleys and far fewer "other
things" (among them about a dozen or so sportbikes). There are some VERY nice
Harleys to be had. There was a LOT of $$$ riding around South Padre. I thought
the whole thing very cool. Harley's are cool. They have something about them.
But, ANY bike can be cool. If you really want one, and can afford it, get it.
If you'll be happy with "something else," get that instead.

Charles

--

Charles Soto - Austin, TX *** 1979 KZ650, 1999 GSF1200S, DoD No. uno
Free Tibet!*
* With purchase of equal or greater value. Not available in all stores.
(If you can't figure out my email, you should unplug the WebTV and lie down.)

Road Glidin' Don

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Oct 16, 2000, 9:11:11 PM10/16/00
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On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 21:26:37 GMT, kingf...@my-deja.com wrote:

>Been thinking about a new HD, and going back and forth over the money
>issue. I like the Fat Boy, and now that it has the balance shaft engine
>I'm seriously considering it. But, I like the look and ride of the Wide
>Glide. Seeing as the dealers here in CT get around 3k over retail, I'm
>considering yet another Jap bike. A new Fat Boy or FXDWG will cost me
>around 18k, whereas I can get on a Valkyrie for under 12k. I plan to
>keep this next bike for a long time, so the investment argument doesn't
>mean that much to me. Just not sure if it's worth paying so much for a
>toy with a 6 month riding season. And, I'd be splitting that time by
>being on my boat as well. Like to get input from HD owners or others.

My opinion? Get the Harley if the price-tag isn't going to bust you.
If you can't afford it, get something else (or wait a little while
longer until you can afford the one you want).

From reading some of the messages here, it is clear that some people
simply regard bikes as toys. I think that's sort of an odd view, but
people are welcome to their own opinions.

And people complain that a bike (for some reason) isn't worth more
than XXX. Huh? Do they get more enjoyment or use out of their cars
(which cost more) then? That says something, if you think about it.

I get way more use (and miles per year) out of my Harley than I do out
of my car. Accordingly, I don't see a problem justifying the bike
costing more than the car either. When it comes to cars, I want an
appliance. When it comes to bikes, I want the Harley.

Don't be timid. Life is short. If you really want the Harley and cut
yourself short by wasting your time on a bike that is only a 'Shadow'
of what you really wanted all along ...does that make sense? You
won't be able to get those years back - no matter how much money you
have in the bank.

I get more fun out of my bike than anything else I've ever owned in my
life - partly because I have exactly the ride I wanted. And I can
ride it everyday (unlike real 'toys', like boats). When I get home
from a busy day at work, I wish I lived further away because the ride
was too short. That's value for the buck.

--
Work to ride. Ride to work.

98 FLTRI
83 Nighthawk

http://members.home.net/langkd

Aki

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Oct 16, 2000, 9:42:55 PM10/16/00
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>On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 21:26:37 GMT, kingf...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>>Been thinking about a new HD, and going back and forth over the money
>>issue. I like the Fat Boy, and now that it has the balance shaft engine
>>I'm seriously considering it. But, I like the look and ride of the Wide
>>Glide. Seeing as the dealers here in CT get around 3k over retail, I'm
>>considering yet another Jap bike. A new Fat Boy or FXDWG will cost me
>>around 18k, whereas I can get on a Valkyrie for under 12k. I plan to
>>keep this next bike for a long time, so the investment argument doesn't
>>mean that much to me. Just not sure if it's worth paying so much for a
>>toy with a 6 month riding season. And, I'd be splitting that time by
>>being on my boat as well. Like to get input from HD owners or others.
>

what's important is that you get *exactly* what will make you happy.

If you get a Harley because you think that's the "cool" thing to do
but really in your heart it's a Valkyrie that you want, you'll have
spent a lot of money and not be happy. The same goes in reverse.

Harleys are a big investment and they're not for everyone...if you can
rent the model of your choice, spend the money and time trying one
out. Unfortunately it's more difficult to find a place that rents
Valkyries but I'm sure they're out there.

And, IMHO, you'll never truly enjoy a "compromise" bike.

Finally, what's important...as always, is not *what* you ride but that
you *do* ride.

See ya on the road...

-aki
01 FXDWG (tinkle)
85 700 Magna
AMA,DoD,HOG,yada,yada

Road Glidin' Don

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Oct 17, 2000, 12:28:38 AM10/17/00
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On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 01:42:55 GMT, Aki <01d...@my.house> wrote:

>And, IMHO, you'll never truly enjoy a "compromise" bike.

I agree. Not only that - it must apply to many people. In general,
for people in the market for that kind of bike, there is no real
substitute, so a higher asking price can be sustained. If it wasn't
valued or deemed irreplaceable by so many, the price would be
instantly lower.

While, in some peoples' minds, a Harley is a waste, I think it is more
of a waste to spend even half the amount and ride something that you
are somewhat disappointed in (no matter what your taste in bikes).

That slight disappointment will also tend to foster less enthusiasm
for riding than would be the case otherwise. Less riding = the
purchase (at whatever cost) being even more of a waste. If you get
precisely the bike you want, you will ride more (more than you would
with a substitute), so you're money has been spent more wisely.

Then, in strictly dollars&cents terms, the bike retains its value
better so you're not exactly hurting there either.

In terms of cost of ownership, one of the previous repliers had it
completely wrong. With a Harley, you can do _all_ of your own
servicing (very easy - partly because of the excellent service manuals
and the general engineering approach). Then, add in the fact that
servicing your own bike adds to the pride of ownership and
appreciation of your ride. A win-win situation.

It's not motorcycle-politically-correct to say it (and there's always
anecdotes people throw out to try to show the opposite), but it's an
undeniable fact: Many, many people riding the non-Harley cruisers
have simply settled for second best (and they'll tell you - especially
if you ride a Harley, it seems). I know, because I hear it almost
half the time I get into a discussion with someone who owns one.

The reverse simply doesn't hold true with Harley owners. Simple
reasoning (on the basis of available resources) indicates that they
have made no compromise.

Rather perversely, that same logic tends to create a (unfair?)
perception that then works even more against the interests of the
non-Harley cruiser-owner - no matter what they based their purchase
decision on! In other words, the 'cheap' tag sticks and can't be
shaken by any amount of advertising. That's because everyone with a
teaspoon of sense knows it's the consuming community that supports the
relative asking prices involved.

I think the previous paragraph is part of the reason why the Japanese
have a truly impossible task succeeding in the cruiser niche. I'm
sure they're doing the best they can, but they have no viable options.
In fact, they may have only succeeded in boosting Harley Davidson's
image among consumers.

It makes me think that the only possible reason for their persistence
is that they really do not understand Western ways very well. If I
were them, I would just bail out of that market, because it just makes
them look bad.

Road Glidin' Don

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Oct 17, 2000, 12:43:13 AM10/17/00
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Not so quick. (I think I'll have him flushed out any time now)

Demetrios

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Oct 17, 2000, 12:50:28 AM10/17/00
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Greetings and welcome to another exciting presentation of "Wild
Candidia" sponsored in part by Mutual of Ontario. In this week's
excitiing episode we chart the ruminations of a nearly extinct
Candidian species.

On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 01:11:11 GMT, langkd_...@home.com (Toad
Lickin' Don) wrote:

>My opinion? Get the Harley if the price-tag isn't going to bust you.
>If you can't afford it, get something else (or wait a little while
>longer until you can afford the one you want).

Here we see Mr. Toad Lickin' Don suggesting that one postpone the
motorcycling experience until they can afford a proper motorbike. This
is quite common amongst the Motor Company's faithful. They do not want
to pollute the mystical experience of maintaining 1940s technology
with prior experiences of soul-less appliances that work without
whimper for thousands of miles. The Harley is lifted upon the altar as
supreme and no doubt to rebuild it's cantankerous transmission derived
from the geared workings of 1890's printing presses.

>From reading some of the messages here, it is clear that some people
>simply regard bikes as toys. I think that's sort of an odd view, but
>people are welcome to their own opinions.

A brief interlude of sanity to provide needed respite for the
ludicrocity that follows.

>And people complain that a bike (for some reason) isn't worth more
>than XXX. Huh? Do they get more enjoyment or use out of their cars
>(which cost more) then? That says something, if you think about it.

Evidently Mr. Toad Licker has no gaggle of squealing tapoles to ferry
about. Or perhaps they fit nicely in a jar in his right saddlebag.

>I get way more use (and miles per year) out of my Harley than I do out
>of my car. Accordingly, I don't see a problem justifying the bike
>costing more than the car either. When it comes to cars, I want an
>appliance. When it comes to bikes, I want the Harley.

Here Mr. Toad gives us a further glimpse into the unquantifiable
mysticism of Harley Ownership[tm]. He compares the meaningless
relationship based on neglect that defines all realible means of
transportation versus the rollercoaster emotionalism of not knowing
when and if you'll get to your destination today. Who wants the
reliable plain-vanilla girl next door when they can have thier heart
broken repeatedly by the local stealership?

>Don't be timid. Life is short. If you really want the Harley and cut
>yourself short by wasting your time on a bike that is only a 'Shadow'
>of what you really wanted all along ...does that make sense? You
>won't be able to get those years back - no matter how much money you
>have in the bank.

Notice the cute jab at Japanese cruisers in quotation marks. This
allows one to continue bashing Asian motorcycles whilst maintaining a
sense of self-righteousness when confronted with the eternal
Hardley-isms.

The interesting disconnect between missing out on years of riding
whilst trying to save up for the Harley as opposed to riding something
more affordable is lost on our Toad Lickin' friend. He would rather
run around in his chaps and leather fringe sans HOG than enjoy the
experience of motorcycling in general. To him any time spent away from
a Harley is time that is wasted.

>I get more fun out of my bike than anything else I've ever owned in my
>life - partly because I have exactly the ride I wanted. And I can
>ride it everyday (unlike real 'toys', like boats). When I get home
>from a busy day at work, I wish I lived further away because the ride
>was too short. That's value for the buck.

Here we see an allusion how mind-numbingly boring life can be in
Candidia and how little stimulation it takes to keep Toad Lickers
entertained. Wishing home was many more miles away may hint at too
much domestic tranquility.

>Work to ride. Ride to work.

A cute little motto that sums up the Hogley experience. Lots of work
to get it running and lots of running to work to keep ahead of the
attendant bills.

Cam Penner

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Oct 17, 2000, 1:11:51 AM10/17/00
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In article <39ebcc70...@news1.attglobal.net>, n...@spam.here says...

> Here we see an allusion how mind-numbingly boring life can be in
> Candidia and how little stimulation it takes to keep Toad Lickers

Hey. Watch that brush. You're painting a lot of people with that
Canada bashing stuff. Do you really want me to come down to your house,
knock politely on the door, say "Good day, eh?", and beat your skull in
with a hockey stick? Good. I knew we could come to an understanding.
I'll give you one more chance before we "have words".

---
Cam
'89 RZ 350, eh?

Road Glidin' Don

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 1:13:05 AM10/17/00
to
On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:11:21 -0500, nom...@this.address (mortimer
snerd) wrote:

>In article <39eda3ed.5018981@news>, langkd_...@home.com (Road Glidin'
>Don) wrote:
>

>> From reading some of the messages here, it is clear that some people
>> simply regard bikes as toys. I think that's sort of an odd view, but
>> people are welcome to their own opinions.
>

>I dont think this applies to me, but I did use the word "toy" in a post on
>the thread, so let me clarify my take just in case...
>
>Anything that reliably and safely carries you around is transportation,
>ergo, the $1500 paint faded crapmobile will suffice. Anything better than
>that, be it a Cadillac, Wide Glide, Porsche, Hayabusa, etc is a toy.

What I found odd (just in general, I'm not sure if it relates to your
post) is that some people get sticker shock just on the basis that a
motorcycle should not be worth a lot of money (i.e. because it's just
a toy).

I think that's a different sense of 'toy' than what you meant,
Mortimer - obvious by the fact that the Cadillacs and Porches can also
demand a high price.

I suppose I just think a motorcycle is more practical than what some
give it credit for. Some seem to use the term as an argument against
any bikes being in the higher price bracket (because they're only
toys, after all).

Like cars, there should be nothing absurd about some bikes being in a
somewhat high bracket. The fact that some are and continue to sell
well is probably a boost to the image of motorcycling in general and
helps the sales of the lesser-priced bikes too.

<snip>


>For most people, motorcycles are toys. Like Don, however, my Road King is
>my regular transportation and I love it. It's hardly necessary and
>certainly there are safer methods of getting around so by my personal
>definition it's a toy, albeit a very practical one.

It's certainly great when you can have something that is both
enjoyable and practical to even some degree. It's a tough argument to
make, but I think I could almost make the case that my Road Glide is
both more convenient (for my transportation needs) and that it saves
me money (compared to a car). A few reasons:

a) The value of cars drops quickly and steeply.
b) I park my bike downtown for free (saving $80/month)
c) I can get where I want to go quicker
d) It's actually a image-boost for clientele (something that - for
the comparable effect - would take a very costly car like a Porche to
equal) [1]
e) It uses less gas than most cars (40 mpg - and these are
high-priced-oil times)
f) Insurance is way less (in my case, anyway)
g) Repairs are less costly (because you can do them yourself easier
than with a car)
h) Owned by my company, the bike gets written down every year ...but
it retains a lot of its value. That's a win on both counts. [2]

Then, once I add in how much fun and how great a stress-reliever it
is, I just kick myself in the ass for not getting one sooner!


[1] Sounds terribly shallow, but the image of being successful is an
asset to a contractor in the computer programming arena.

[2] People have been known to sell them for cash, once they have been
written off to zero.

Road Glidin' Don

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 1:19:45 AM10/17/00
to
On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 05:11:51 GMT, Cam Penner
<Cam.P...@pleasedontspamgoldmedalsystems.com> wrote:

>Hey. Watch that brush. You're painting a lot of people with that
>Canada bashing stuff. Do you really want me to come down to your house,
>knock politely on the door, say "Good day, eh?", and beat your skull in
>with a hockey stick?

<snip>

We could just send Marty McSorely over. I hear he's still a free man.

--


Work to ride. Ride to work.

98 FLTRI
83 Nighthawk

http://members.home.net/langkd

Alan Gideon

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 2:24:34 AM10/17/00
to
snipped
Glide wrote

Don't be timid. Life is short. If you really want the Harley and cut
yourself short by wasting your time on a bike that is only a 'Shadow' of
what you really wanted all along ...does that make sense? You won't be
able to get those years back - no matter how much money you have in the
bank


Hello Glide, Your're comments jaunt my mind back to the early 80's, back
when H-D had commercials on the telly which they don't need
now..lol..Anywho they show a Harley a going down the road with that
unmistakable exhaust note and this old dude says <paraphrased>
If i had it to do over again I'd got me that Harley Davidson!..member
that one?
regards
<Alan SENS>


http://community.webtv.net/allynn1940514xl/MeandLesfromarecent

mortimer snerd

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
In article <39edda0e.5271610@news>, langkd_...@home.com (Road Glidin'
Don) wrote:


> What I found odd (just in general, I'm not sure if it relates to your
> post) is that some people get sticker shock just on the basis that a
> motorcycle should not be worth a lot of money (i.e. because it's just
> a toy).

I think it goes even deeper than that sometimes. Some people get, um,
emotional when the price of a bike is comparable to a car or pickup truck
and they can't justify that for whatever reasons. Sometimes it's also
plain old envy or jealousy that someone else can drop major coin on
something they can't justify or afford to buy themselves. Harley RUB
becomes a standard moniker as a result, and I have seen the BMW RUB label
put out too. Why not GoldWing RUB or MV Augusta RUB too, they are in the
same price range and equally impractical toys if you want to label them
so. I guess "poser" gets used if it's a sportbike. Those overpriced
Ducati toys are for silly posers too.

If you mention the possibility of envy, it's immediately shrugged off as
the RUBs just not having the sense to buy something "better" ie, cheaper,
faster, flashier, more sensible, whatever. Rarely does someone admit that
the owner may have bought exactly what they wanted; rather, the RUBs must
be foolios to spend the kind of money that could buy three of other kinds
of bikes or even a new car! Well, it's not their decision to make for
someone else, so tuff luck.

> I think that's a different sense of 'toy' than what you meant,
> Mortimer - obvious by the fact that the Cadillacs and Porches can also
> demand a high price.

Vewwy Twoo. Manufacturing cost on a Cadillac is not that much greater
than a comparable Chevrolet. Perceived value justifies the sales price
difference to the end buyer. Each sale is it's own agreement by the
individual buyer and seller in each individual circumstance. "This is what
I want and this is what I will pay for it" If the seller agrees, there is
a transaction and everyone is happy. No agreement, no sale, everyone is
still happy. Outside opinions don't count either way, they are just
kibitzing the real players who make their deals or not and go on.



> I suppose I just think a motorcycle is more practical than what some
> give it credit for. Some seem to use the term as an argument against
> any bikes being in the higher price bracket (because they're only
> toys, after all).

Playing devil's advocate for a second, you could just as well get around
on a Solex instead of your Glide, ergo, the Glide is a toy. The devils
argument falls to pieces when it is put under the criteria that (1) you
don't want a Solex,(2) you want the Glide,(3) you can afford it and, most
importantly, (4) it does more than just transport you from point A to B.
Game, Set, Match to Don. Happy Gliding.



> It's certainly great when you can have something that is both
> enjoyable and practical to even some degree.

<<<<<<<<<<<snippage>>>>>>>


>
> Then, once I add in how much fun and how great a stress-reliever it
> is, I just kick myself in the ass for not getting one sooner!

Anyone who rides should have some innate understanding of the practical
side as well as the fun and mental therapy bikes provide. Boats are toys
to many people, but ask a shrimper about his "toy" of a boat and be ready
to duck his fist. It's all in how you use your "toys".



> [1] Sounds terribly shallow, but the image of being successful is an
> asset to a contractor in the computer programming arena.

No more shallow than an Armani suit and Gucci loafers for attorneys who
need that uniform to work. The bike is alot more fun than a suit. HD has
an image that is unique and easily recognized. If that pays off in
bizness, it's one more positive attribute neither the Solex nor the $1500
beater can provide. Same thing happens in my bizness. Having the King
parked out in front of the studio excites the clients who are coming in to
work. It's an initial element of "cool" before they even walk in the
door. I had one client come in all excited yelling "Man, you got the King
of the Road out there!" Hard to duplicate that. Never mind it's a damn
nice machine to ride. That's for me to enjoy.

> [2] People have been known to sell them for cash, once they have been
> written off to zero.

Works well in divorces too. Haven't had to do that myself, but have heard
some tales told by others who have. Boy, were their ex-es pissed off !
<LOL>

mortimer snerd

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
In article <39ebcc70...@news1.attglobal.net>, n...@spam.here
(Demetrios) wrote:

> Greetings and ....

*yawn*

Harry K Smith

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
Demetrios (n...@spam.here) wrote:
: Greetings and welcome to another exciting presentation of "Wild

: Candidia" sponsored in part by Mutual of Ontario. In this week's
: excitiing episode we chart the ruminations of a nearly extinct
: Candidian species.

Let me guess...your family was killed by a pack of rabid Harleys.

Harry
'83 Suzuki GR650 Tempter
'91 Suzuki VX800

Tom Keener

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 04:43:13 GMT, langkd_...@home.com (Road
Glidin' Don) wrote:

>On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:34:43 -0500, nom...@this.address (mortimer
>snerd) wrote:
>
>>In article <39EB9D85...@REMOVE.deathstar.org>, Flash - DoD #412
>><Fl...@REMOVE.deathstar.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I ain't sayin' a WORD on this subject.
>>> Certain folks need to take note.
>>>
>>> - Flash - DoD #412
>>> - http://www.deathstar.org/~flash
>>
>>We're very proud of you Flash. You get a gold star on your chart and a
>>note home to Mom. :D
>
>Not so quick. (I think I'll have him flushed out any time now)

I don't believe this. I can't help it. This is _not_ me posting.
Help!

Hi folks! Flash here. (Ya know, channeling sure can be fun.)

HARLEY SUCKS!

Tom Keener
keensurf_at_cts_dot_com

Motorps...@webtv.net

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to

Re: Harleys really worth the $$$?
Help
---------------------------------------------------

Get thee on the internet and contact HD dealers all over the country.
Just because they're charging $3000 over list where you are doesn't mean
they are doing that everywhere.
------------------------------------------------------
Yea but, even if you get HD at MSRP , your still paying five times more
than what it actually worth.

MOTOR-psycho-Jim
VF750C Magna
Columbus, OHIO


Henry H. Hansteen

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to

Demetrios wrote:

> Here we see an allusion how mind-numbingly boring life can be

Indeed. You need to get up, get out, and do something....

Aki

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 01:24:34 -0500 (CDT), allynn1...@webtv.net
(Alan Gideon) swung a leg over their bike, fired it to life, looked at
me and belched:

...I remember a magazine ad that HD had a few years ago...it showed
a Winger with a kitchen sink duct taped to the front fender, a 19" tv
strapped to the handlebars, a long shower head coming off the back and
hanging over the seat, a washing machine being towed behind, a
telephone duct taped to the fairing and finally a toilet strapped in
the pillion seat..and the caption at the bottom of the two page spread
said:

"If you want all the comforts of home....stay there"

"Harley Davidson motorcycles....for those who want to ride"

thought it was pretty cool

cheers

Aki

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
On 17 Oct 2000 09:38:34 GMT, hk...@Ra.MsState.Edu (Harry K Smith) swung

a leg over their bike, fired it to life, looked at me and belched:

>Demetrios (n...@spam.here) wrote:
>: Greetings and welcome to another exciting presentation of "Wild


>: Candidia" sponsored in part by Mutual of Ontario. In this week's
>: excitiing episode we chart the ruminations of a nearly extinct
>: Candidian species.
>

>Let me guess...your family was killed by a pack of rabid Harleys.
>
>Harry
>'83 Suzuki GR650 Tempter
>'91 Suzuki VX800

..naw more like his credit app was turned down at his local HD shop
and he's had a boner against HD's ever since...just ignore him and
he'll eventually go away.

Karl Fengler (HOG FVR)

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
<kingf...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8sfrq3$5rf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Been thinking about a new HD, and going back and forth over the money
> issue. I like the Fat Boy, and now that it has the balance shaft engine
> I'm seriously considering it. But, I like the look and ride of the Wide
> Glide. Seeing as the dealers here in CT get around 3k over retail, I'm
> considering yet another Jap bike. A new Fat Boy or FXDWG will cost me
> around 18k, whereas I can get on a Valkyrie for under 12k. I plan to
> keep this next bike for a long time, so the investment argument doesn't
> mean that much to me. Just not sure if it's worth paying so much for a
> toy with a 6 month riding season. And, I'd be splitting that time by
> being on my boat as well. Like to get input from HD owners or others.

My first response is get the Valkyrie! You don't seem like the
type that knows what he really wants, since Harleys and most Japanese
machines are quite different. Now between a FLSTF and an FXDWG, well
there I would say get the Dyna, you get the rubber mounted engine,
and also that Harley feel. With the balanced engine, (which is a
really nice engine) you loose that. That's why I guess I suggest
the Valkyrie, be you really don't want the Harley, you want the
really smooth engine, and also can't justify the price. I did get
my WG for MSRP, and the dealer here sells all his new bikes at
that price. ($15050 out the door, 1996)

--
Karl Fengler F150-5.4 * FXDWG k_fe...@hotmail.com
!! You Have Strayed Upon The Motorway To HELL !!


Henderson, Greg [CAR:VM15:EXCH]

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
Road Glidin' Don wrote:

> It's not motorcycle-politically-correct to say it (and there's always
> anecdotes people throw out to try to show the opposite), but it's an
> undeniable fact: Many, many people riding the non-Harley cruisers
> have simply settled for second best (and they'll tell you - especially
> if you ride a Harley, it seems). I know, because I hear it almost
> half the time I get into a discussion with someone who owns one.

Then for that half, anything but a Harley is second best. Harleys are
worth the money for them. What about the other half? I'll bet the
other half like it that the first half means there are lots on inexpensive
used cruisers to buy. Although I mostly buy new bikes, many folks only
buy used.

Any non-Harley cruiser owners that are bothered others calling their
bikes second best probably should get a Harley.

> The reverse simply doesn't hold true with Harley owners. Simple
> reasoning (on the basis of available resources) indicates that they
> have made no compromise.
>
> Rather perversely, that same logic tends to create a (unfair?)
> perception that then works even more against the interests of the
> non-Harley cruiser-owner - no matter what they based their purchase
> decision on! In other words, the 'cheap' tag sticks and can't be
> shaken by any amount of advertising. That's because everyone with a
> teaspoon of sense knows it's the consuming community that supports the
> relative asking prices involved.
>
> I think the previous paragraph is part of the reason why the Japanese
> have a truly impossible task succeeding in the cruiser niche. I'm
> sure they're doing the best they can, but they have no viable options.
> In fact, they may have only succeeded in boosting Harley Davidson's
> image among consumers.
>
> It makes me think that the only possible reason for their persistence
> is that they really do not understand Western ways very well. If I
> were them, I would just bail out of that market, because it just makes
> them look bad.

If they are making money, they should stay in the market. Speaking as a
single datapoint, one who doesn't like riding cruisers (I like the looks,
but not the riding position), whether the Japanese do well selling cruisers
does not affect my buying decisions at all. I don't care if Harley owners
think Japanese cruisers are lower quality. I also don't care if those
Harley owners extend that to all Japanese bikes, including sportbikes.
It won't affect my sportbike buying decisions.

It's very amusing a sportbike owner bashes Harleys, and when a Harley
rider bashes _all_ Japanese bikes. Those opinions say more about the
person than their ride. I don't believe you're in the second group
Don. Trolling doesn't count!

I like the fact that Harley's success is getting more people into biking,
I don't care what the new rider's motivation is, it means more motorcycles
on the streets. I'll admit I find some of the not-yet-riders' negative
attitudes about all non-Haleys annoying, but only because they make that
statement without any experience.

Don, you've owned your Harley for some time now, so your motorcycle opinions
are earned. But I think your above "bailing out" statement was made because
of your love of Harleys, whereas the the non-Harley cruiser manufacturers
only care about the sales of their bikes.

Besides, smaller bikers need those smaller Japanese cruisers as training
bikes. Without the little cruisers there would be a lot more new Harleys
getting all scratched up! :-)

--
Greg Henderson
Kwak: ZX-6E, Hardley: Z-90, Suze: SV650S

Henderson, Greg [CAR:VM15:EXCH]

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
Cam Penner wrote:

Hmmm, a certain television comercial comes to mind involving an American
office worker demonstrating a very narrow view of Canucks to a newly met
Canadian office worker. It's best to have a very good understanding of
Grapes style hockey before you do that...

CBR600F4

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 21:26:37 GMT, kingf...@my-deja.com wrote:

>Been thinking about a new HD, and going back and forth over the money
>issue. I like the Fat Boy, and now that it has the balance shaft engine
>I'm seriously considering it. But, I like the look and ride of the Wide
>Glide. Seeing as the dealers here in CT get around 3k over retail, I'm
>considering yet another Jap bike. A new Fat Boy or FXDWG will cost me
>around 18k, whereas I can get on a Valkyrie for under 12k. I plan to
>keep this next bike for a long time, so the investment argument doesn't
>mean that much to me. Just not sure if it's worth paying so much for a
>toy with a 6 month riding season. And, I'd be splitting that time by
>being on my boat as well. Like to get input from HD owners or others.
>
>
>

>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.


Hey, when was the last time you bought an antique cheap? Just kidding
guys (sort of), put your guns away.

------------------------------------------------------
Chris (H-Man) Pyle

M.M.E. (Mid-west Motorcycle Enthusiasts) - President

'99 CBR600 F4
'98 Honda Foreman 450s
'95 Ford Probe

"I held it wide open till I saw God.... then I broke."

Demetrios

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:47:51 GMT, Aki <01d...@my.house> wrote:

>..naw more like his credit app was turned down at his local HD shop
>and he's had a boner against HD's ever since...just ignore him and
>he'll eventually go away.

Psyeeaah like I would sully my credit rating by having an HD shop on
the inquiry list.

As long as hypocrites whine about Harley bashing whilst tossing their
own little Japbike barbs you can rest assured I will never go away.

Flash - DoD #412

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
Tom Keener wrote:

> (Road Glidin' Don) wrote:
> >(mortimer>snerd) wrote:


> >><Flash> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I ain't sayin' a WORD on this subject.
> >>> Certain folks need to take note.
> >>> - Flash - DoD #412
> >>> - http://www.deathstar.org/~flash
> >>
> >>We're very proud of you Flash. You get a gold star on your chart and a
> >>note home to Mom. :D

Kewl! Maybe she'll put in on her fridge next to the colored picture I sent
her of an ASIC I layed out a decade or so back.

> >Not so quick. (I think I'll have him flushed out any time now)

HEY!
Oh... flushed OUT. That's different. Acceptable and all.

> I don't believe this. I can't help it. This is _not_ me posting.
> Help!
> Hi folks! Flash here. (Ya know, channeling sure can be fun.)
> HARLEY SUCKS!
> Tom Keener

Tom, I am STILL not dead. So you can't channel me, yet. Come clean. That
is how YOU feel.
;-)

- Flash

Dan Nitschke

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
Motorps...@webtv.net wrote:

> Yea but, even if you get HD at MSRP , your still paying five times more
> than what it actually worth.

Sorry, but there's no way you can make that statement
for anyone *else*. Go figure out what "worth" means, and
then get back to me.
--

/* St. Dan the Pedantic: The Anti-Ged, IY (tm) #1, none-%er #7 */

Dan Nitschke == peDA...@idiom.com == (.....)@(......).net
************************************************************
You're readin' my mind, you won't look in my eyes; you say I
do things that I don't realize. -- The Alan Parsons Project

Dan Nitschke

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
Cam Penner wrote:

> Hey. Watch that brush. You're painting a lot of people with that
> Canada bashing stuff.

A *lot* of people? All of Canada is eleven people (with 19
teeth between them), 317 moose, 80 badgers, and one maple
leaf. I got more than that in my *closet*.

> Do you really want me to come down to your house,
> knock politely on the door, say "Good day, eh?", and beat your skull in
> with a hockey stick?

Do you really want to be charged with assault? I mean,
even if it *is* during a hockey game?
--

/* dan: The Anti-Ged -- Scary Git, IY (tm) #1, YJP #1, LCDB (tm) #1 */

Dan Nitschke =*= peDA...@idiom.com =*= (.)@(.....).net
..::..::..::..::..::..::..::..::..::..::..::..::..::..::.
People who know little are usually great talkers, while
people who know much say little. -- Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Aaron Fix

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to


<kingf...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8sfrq3$5rf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

> Been thinking about a new HD, ...
<snip>

The bottom line is, you already know the answer, you're just looking for
some confirmation that what you already know you want is the right one. If
you will be disappointed with anything besides a Harley- there's your
answer. Don is clearly in this category- he would be unhappy on anything
else. If spending the extra six thousand dollars will bum you out to the
point that you don't enjoy the Harley- get a Valkyrie or similar bike. Then
when you get on you can think to yourself- I just saved a crapload of money.
Some random observations on Harleys vs Japanese bikes
Harleys seem to require a fairly constant moderate level of maintenance - if
you are a decent wrench, you can do nearly all of this yourself. This saves
money and gives you an even stronger appreciation of your bike. Personally,
I love simple, well engineered designs and Harleys are pretty good for that.
If you don't want to do anything beyond an oil change, Harley maintenance
can get pretty expensive. A lemon Harley will make you wish you never
bought a motorcycle, a well maintained one can ride to the moon and back.
Japanese bikes on the other hand generally require very little maintenance
for the first 50K miles or so. For many, this is more than they will ever
ride the bike, so it makes for a blessedly hassle free experience. As a
newbie, you can buy a Jap bike, thrash the hell out of it for 20k miles with
nary more than a few oil changes and it will still run. If you are a little
nicer you can get 50k, and if you really treat it right it you can get it
around the clock. The down side is that when it really starts to go, its
often not worth the hassle to get it fixed (ie, everything starts going at
once)- though many people will disagree on this. Also with the newer ones
particularly, self-wrenching is a bit more problematic due to all sorts of
tricky fuel injectors and computer do-hickeys and the like.
Anyhow, just my $.02-

--
Aaron Fix
76 CB550F


deja_sux_...@my-deja.com

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
In article <8sfrq3$5rf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

kingf...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Been thinking about a new HD, and going back and forth over the money
> issue. I like the Fat Boy, and now that it has the balance shaft
engine
> I'm seriously considering it. But, I like the look and ride of the
Wide
> Glide. Seeing as the dealers here in CT get around 3k over retail, I'm
> considering yet another Jap bike. A new Fat Boy or FXDWG will cost me
> around 18k, whereas I can get on a Valkyrie for under 12k. I plan to
> keep this next bike for a long time, so the investment argument
doesn't
> mean that much to me. Just not sure if it's worth paying so much for a
> toy with a 6 month riding season. And, I'd be splitting that time by
> being on my boat as well. Like to get input from HD owners or others.
>


IMHO, No new oversized cruizer type motercikle is worff da money. Fo
12-18k youz can gets yosef a pickem up truck. Ifens youz reelly wants a
bike youz should steel sum yuppers hogger, theyz has dem inshured and
mos a dem yuppers just tinks of em as fashon aksessorys anyhows. Dont be
swipe nun o dem slanty bikes, dey reelly not bikes anyhowz. Hoggys iz da
only reel motocykle. no sef respctin won persenter wuld be cot ded on a
slanty bike.

Joe

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
> >And, IMHO, you'll never truly enjoy a "compromise" bike.
>
> I agree. Not only that - it must apply to many people. In general,
> for people in the market for that kind of bike, there is no real
> substitute, so a higher asking price can be sustained. If it wasn't
> valued or deemed irreplaceable by so many, the price would be
> instantly lower.
>
> While, in some peoples' minds, a Harley is a waste, I think it is more
> of a waste to spend even half the amount and ride something that you
> are somewhat disappointed in (no matter what your taste in bikes).
>
> That slight disappointment will also tend to foster less enthusiasm
> for riding than would be the case otherwise. Less riding = the
> purchase (at whatever cost) being even more of a waste. If you get
> precisely the bike you want, you will ride more (more than you would
> with a substitute), so you're money has been spent more wisely.
>
> Then, in strictly dollars&cents terms, the bike retains its value
> better so you're not exactly hurting there either.

Yes but a bike (any brand) is an expense not an investment. Same goes
for cars, trucks, etc.. If you're going to keep the bike more than 3-4
years or 50,000+ miles forget about resale and focus on costs like
maintenance, insurance, etc. Keep them as long as you can and rack up
as many miles as possible and you'll be getting a better return on your
"expense" or purchase. If you're trying to turn a profit use the
securities market...not motorcycles.

> In terms of cost of ownership, one of the previous repliers had it
> completely wrong. With a Harley, you can do _all_ of your own
> servicing (very easy - partly because of the excellent service manuals
> and the general engineering approach). Then, add in the fact that
> servicing your own bike adds to the pride of ownership and
> appreciation of your ride. A win-win situation.
>
> It's not motorcycle-politically-correct to say it (and there's always
> anecdotes people throw out to try to show the opposite), but it's an
> undeniable fact: Many, many people riding the non-Harley cruisers
> have simply settled for second best (and they'll tell you - especially
> if you ride a Harley, it seems). I know, because I hear it almost
> half the time I get into a discussion with someone who owns one.

Awwww...cmon' now. I agree that you shouldn't buy something that you
wont like but there are many many people riding non-Harley cruisers who
just plain love them. Nope..they're not compromises at all. They're
riders who like bikes that aren't HDs.

I bought a Honda Shadow a year and a half ago. It was my first bike so
I was inexpereinced and agonized over what I should get. I saw a Shadow
in front of a local bar and loved it so I went to the nearest Honda shop
and checked it out. Man, I said "that is the perfect bike for me".
Then the other customers laughed at me for talking to myself and I
scampered away. I knew nothing about motorcycles. For example; at the
time I didn't even know they made motorcycles with radiators! I liked
the idea of liquid cooled. I probably looked like a kid lost in a candy
store.

Being a pseudo-savvy shopper I checked out the other bikes of the
approximate size and type I was seeking. The Yamahas were nice but not
for me. The Suzuki turned me off. The Kawi Vulcan almost made it but
didn't have that special "something". After checking out every non-HD
store in town I braved the belt buckles and t-shirts to check out the HD
offerings. I felt obligated to like the HDs. I figured there must be
something I'm missing if I "didn't get it". But the Sportster was the
nearest in size to what I was picturing in my mind but totally
lacked....well to me it lacked anything. It seemed small and light and
I wanted something "fatter". I checked out "fatter" HDs and they looked
"bloated". So whatever "it" was I didn't get "it". I don't think I
even bothered to check the price tags. I checked out bikes all over and
found nothing that would make me talk out loud on the showroom floor
except for the Shadow...so the Shadow it was. (Incidentally this does
not mean that I just cut a blank check at purchase time...I negotiated
pretty hard. I wanted a Shadow but I'd have negotiated with every Honda
dealer on earth if that's what it would have taken to get the price I
was willing to pay...and no I didn't talk out loud and drool on the
showroom floor in the presence of salesmen.)

It was the Shadow that convinced me to take the MSF course and get a
license. It was the Shadow that convinced me that it made sense to
commute on two wheels; Ride in the rain? Sure. Freeze your nuts off
on a December morning? Of course. Anxiously watch the snow melt from
the roads calculating the very minute you can be on the bike again?
Certainly. Taking a trip to the East coast and you're NOT flying?
Perish the thought...I've got a motorcycle that needs exercise! A
compromise? Nope, any machine that can do to your thought pattern isn't
a compromise...it's a friggin' miracle (to those on reeky its a
miracle...to the rest of the world it's a mental defect).

So I humbly suggest that you wander around like an idiot looking a bikes
until you find one that you MUST have. When you find a bike YOU GOTTA'
HAVE NOW. When you can't think about anything else. When you want it
bad and are about to have a juvenile tantrum if you don't get
it...you've found the bike best for you. Anything else will be second
best. If you're going to ride a lot and aren't looking for the poser
factor forget about brand name and look for Karma! (Once you've found
the make and model with Karma negotiate like a madman to shave the price
as low as feasable...I probably gave my salesman a migrane.)

> The reverse simply doesn't hold true with Harley owners. Simple
> reasoning (on the basis of available resources) indicates that they
> have made no compromise.
>
> Rather perversely, that same logic tends to create a (unfair?)
> perception that then works even more against the interests of the
> non-Harley cruiser-owner - no matter what they based their purchase
> decision on! In other words, the 'cheap' tag sticks and can't be
> shaken by any amount of advertising. That's because everyone with a
> teaspoon of sense knows it's the consuming community that supports the
> relative asking prices involved.
>
> I think the previous paragraph is part of the reason why the Japanese
> have a truly impossible task succeeding in the cruiser niche. I'm
> sure they're doing the best they can, but they have no viable options.
> In fact, they may have only succeeded in boosting Harley Davidson's
> image among consumers.

Nope. Honda succeded in their niche. They sold me a bike when no other
brand could pry my wallet open. If it were up to Harely or nobody to
get me on a motorcycle I'd be in a 4x4 rather than on a bike. I bought
the motorcycle, I sometimes buy Hondaline accessories, pay for routine
maintenance at the dealership[1], etc... Presumably Honda is turning a
profit from me. That's a success.

> It makes me think that the only possible reason for their persistence
> is that they really do not understand Western ways very well.

Really? I bought a Honda. I'm racking up miles as fast as I can and
if/when I wear out this bike (hopefull far into the future) I'll
probably buy another Honda. Actually I expect this one to last
indefinitely but when I pay of this bike I'll proably pick up a second
bike...maybe a used ST1100 or some adrenaline pumping sportbike[2].
Lets see if HD can make a cruiser that makes a new rider so happy he
might want a non-cruisers like sportbike and and sport-tourers just for
fun and in ADDITION TO retaining a cruiser customer. Can't do it
because they make 99% curisers (unless you add Buell...gasp cough...to
the mix).

> If I
> were them, I would just bail out of that market, because it just makes
> them look bad.

I saw truckloads of Shadows moving off showroom floors. They've got to
be making a profit somehow and they've got legions of loyal and happy
owners. I can't see how that makes them look bad.

Joe

[1] Is there any other kind of maintenance? I wouldn't know...I ride a
Honda. ;-)
[2] Originally I was totally uninterested in sportbikes or sporttourers
but I like the cruiser so much I wonder if I'd like something different
IN ADDITION to my daily ride. Of course that'll have to wait until some
heretofore unknown relative wills me a fortune.

DwP

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:01:29 -0700, Dan Nitschke <peda...@idiom.com> wrote:

>Motorps...@webtv.net wrote:
>
>> Yea but, even if you get HD at MSRP , your still paying five times more
>> than what it actually worth.
>
>Sorry, but there's no way you can make that statement
>for anyone *else*. Go figure out what "worth" means, and
>then get back to me.

Economics 101:

Rule no. 1 If enough people purchase Harleys at $18,000 and demand exceeds
supply, then Harleys are worth at least $18,000.

Rule no. 2 It doesn't matter if Dennis (or anyone else) doesn't like rule
number 1, it still applies.

Rule no. 3 Never squat with your spurs on.

Aki

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 14:46:42 GMT, n...@spam.here (Demetrios) swung a leg

over their bike, fired it to life, looked at me and belched:

>On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:47:51 GMT, Aki <01d...@my.house> wrote:

>own little Japbike barbs you can rest assured I will never go away.

..and I have no problem with throwing barbs at *those* kind of
people..however I see no discrimination in the anti-Harley bashing.
What I *do* see often is off-handed remarks about Harleys even when
there isn't any Japanese bike bashing going on..pot-kettle-black.

I don't bash Japanese bikes, in fact I own both a Japanese bike and
a Harley and like them both for two different reasons. If I had
enough money, there's about *at least* a dozen Japanese, German and
American iron I'd love to own.

cheers,

Dave Green

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
Demetrios (n...@spam.here) wrote:
: Greetings and welcome to another exciting presentation of "Wild
: Candidia" sponsored in part by Mutual of Ontario. In this week's
: excitiing episode we chart the ruminations of a nearly extinct
: Candidian species.

<snip>

: Here we see an allusion how mind-numbingly boring life can be in


: Candidia and how little stimulation it takes to keep Toad Lickers

: entertained. Wishing home was many more miles away may hint at too
: much domestic tranquility.

Hey, fuck you.
--

!!!!!!!!!
!! ^ ^ !! Dave Green
(.(0)-(0).) '83 CB750SC DoD#1468
!! U !!
| (---) |
w http://imagearts.ryerson.ca/dgreen


A. Moore

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
DwP wrote:
>
<snip>

>
> Economics 101:
>
> Rule no. 1 If enough people purchase Harleys at $18,000 and demand exceeds
> supply, then Harleys are worth at least $18,000.
>
> Rule no. 2 It doesn't matter if Dennis (or anyone else) doesn't like rule
> number 1, it still applies.
>
> Rule no. 3 Never squat with your spurs on.

That explains it! You need spurs to get a Harley moving. Gosh, if I'd
known it was that simple, I might have bought one. If it had been maybe
$10k less...

Al Moore
DoD 734

Karl Fengler (HOG FVR)

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
"Jon" <jtec@#cnw.com> wrote in message
news:01c037c6$067420a0$418195cf@crmqusve...
> The Harley's are nice in their own way, but you'll pay big to get one and
> keep paying to keep it serviced and maintain the warranty. Do some web
> surfing and checkout the reliability issues before you take a second
> mortgage to buy a porker. I tasted the Harley flavor this year and found
> it to be artificial. The overall build and finish quality is very nice,
> but there are disappointments. The Japanese still offer the best value
and
> highest reliability.

You have first hand experience with servicing a Harley?

In the 4 1/2 years I've had my Dyna WG all that's been done
service wise, has been done by me. All that takes is some
regular Oil & Filter changes and changing the Transmission
and Primary oil. Checking Primary chain, and Drive belt
tension. And all the regular things one checks when owning
a bike. This spring I will take it to a local independent
shop to have new tires put on, and I'll have him go over the
bike at that time too.


What's this maintain a warranty thing?

Didn't have anything other than the normal warranty, didn't
buy into the extended warranty stuff with the bike. (or my
F150, nor any of the appliances in the house... had to add
this since I keep getting offers to pay for the extended
warranties)

I have no disappointments, other than I don't get to ride as
much as I would like. Once you have a life, (Family and other
responsibilities) you may understand)

Second mortgage?

$15,050 out the door... all taxes, dealer prep., and other
paper work stuff. No second mortgage needed, paid cash.
Just saved for a while! And got a good price out of the
XLH1200 I sold.

Japanese bikes are nice, not for me though. I can admire
a riders, ride, without having to want to own one. That
goes for any brand.

Aki

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:13:01 -0600, "Karl Fengler \(HOG FVR\)"
<lo...@sig.please.because.this.is.invalid> swung a leg over their bike,

fired it to life, looked at me and belched:


>


>Japanese bikes are nice, not for me though. I can admire
>a riders, ride, without having to want to own one. That
>goes for any brand.

..you just summed up just what some anti-Harley (and anti-Japanese)
riders just don't seem to grasp. Just because you either don't want
it, can't afford it or just flat out don't like it doesn't mean you
have to be a complete and total idiot by bashing it like a broken
record (or CD for some of you younger folks out there).

DwP

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:02:18 -0700, "A. Moore" <alan....@lmco.com> wrote:

>That explains it! You need spurs to get a Harley moving. Gosh, if I'd
>known it was that simple, I might have bought one. If it had been maybe
>$10k less...

Spurs my good man come in pairs, and I'm sure you can get them for summit less
that $10k.

DwP

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:13:01 -0600, "Karl Fengler \(HOG FVR\)"
<lo...@sig.please.because.this.is.invalid> wrote:

>Japanese bikes are nice, not for me though. I can admire
>a riders, ride, without having to want to own one. That
>goes for any brand.

I've experienced that myself. The typical Harley owner just can't gawk enough
at my lime green '73 Honda CL 350. It think it has something to do with the
Hookers I have on it.

*************************************
* Dennis H. FYB, PSotAEoH *
*Git Intelligence and Planning Depar*tment
* When I grow up, I wanna be just *
* like my 4 year old. *
* MPB# FECEFACED *
* Honorary Lesbian - Vice-Moderator *
* Trainee Canuck *
*************************************

Joe

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
> > This may sound simplistic, but HDs are worth exactly what you pay for
> > them: no more and no less.
>
> It's not simplistic; it's the definition of "worth".
>
> I paid a lot of money for my motorcycle... but it's
> worth that to me. Someone else may not think it's
> worth that much money... to them.
>
> We're both right.
>
> The bottom line is: do you think it's worth it to
> you to spend that money for what you get? I can't
> answer that for you.

I remember reading some investment guru who said:

"Price is what you pay."
"Value is whet you get."

I'd modify that for reeky. I humbly submit the following decision
making aid.

1. Figure out what you can afford (or make payments on)...that's the
maximum price you can handle.

a. If this number is lower than the price of a six pack...buy the beer
and cry in it.

2. Figure out if you're one of the "must have Harley" folks[2][3].
Don't lie to yourself!

3. If you are a "must have Harley" individual:

a. If the result from #1 is greater than the price of the appropriate
machine...buy it.

a1. Congratulations.
a2. Don't give riders of other makes/models crap.
a3. Wave damnit!

b. If the result from #1 is less than the price of the appropriate
machine...you're screwed.

b1. Save your pennies or sell some organs/children.
b2. Don't buy a t-shirt and pretend...you're not foolin' anybody.
b3. Don't give riders of other makes/models crap.
b4. Give up on the "my bike is an investment" ruse...you're not
foolin' anybody.
b5. Don't bother putting a sticker on your Ford...it's not the same.

4. If you are not a "must have Harley" individual:

a. Find the best bike[1] for your needs that is lower than the result
from #1.
b. Buy it...congratulations.
c. Ride a lot.
d. Repeat the previous step.


Joe

[1] It may still be a HD but generally when you're seeking maximum
machine for the dollar my opinion is that most of the time it's not
going to be a HD.

[2] If you're a "must have Harley" person that's cool with me but don't
even think of trying to convert me...that just pisses me off. Don't
knock my Honda and I (mostly) wont make fun of your HD.

[3] I'm agnostic about motorcycle name brand but I am a "must have beer
in a bottle (or keg)" individual. I'll go without before I'll swill
canned beer. Keystone in a can is evil...a can of Coors light is like
water with less flavor. That's the closest I can feel to the Harley
faithful who wont ride if it's not on a HD. When I can't afford good
microbrew or imports I don't wear a t-shirt of a fine brewery and make
fun of Coors. I just sulk.

Cam Penner

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
In article <39EC53D4...@americasm01.nt.com>,
gh...@americasm01.nt.com says...

> Cam Penner wrote:
>
> > In article <39ebcc70...@news1.attglobal.net>, n...@spam.here says...
> > > Here we see an allusion how mind-numbingly boring life can be in
> > > Candidia and how little stimulation it takes to keep Toad Lickers
> >
> > Hey. Watch that brush. You're painting a lot of people with that
> > Canada bashing stuff. Do you really want me to come down to your house,

> > knock politely on the door, say "Good day, eh?", and beat your skull in
> > with a hockey stick? Good. I knew we could come to an understanding.
> > I'll give you one more chance before we "have words".
>
> Hmmm, a certain television comercial comes to mind involving an American
> office worker demonstrating a very narrow view of Canucks to a newly met
> Canadian office worker. It's best to have a very good understanding of
> Grapes style hockey before you do that...

I'm well versed. Even my suit jacket has a tie down strap.

---
Cam
'89 RZ 350

Cam Penner

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
In article <39EC78F1...@idiom.com>, peda...@idiom.com says...

> Cam Penner wrote:
>
> > Hey. Watch that brush. You're painting a lot of people with that
> > Canada bashing stuff.
>
> A *lot* of people? All of Canada is eleven people (with 19
> teeth between them), 317 moose, 80 badgers, and one maple
> leaf. I got more than that in my *closet*.

Time to clean out your closet. Those moose droppings pile up FAST.

>
> > Do you really want me to come down to your house,
> > knock politely on the door, say "Good day, eh?", and beat your skull in
> > with a hockey stick?
>

> Do you really want to be charged with assault? I mean,
> even if it *is* during a hockey game?

Yeah so you get charged. Big deal. It's not like there's a fine or any
jail time attached.

Demetrios

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
On 17 Oct 2000 16:40:54 GMT, dgr...@acs.ryerson.ca (Dave Green) wrote:

>Hey, fuck you.

Does your ISP charge by the word?

Demetrios

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:50:02 GMT, Aki <01d...@my.house> wrote:

>..and I have no problem with throwing barbs at *those* kind of
>people..however I see no discrimination in the anti-Harley bashing.
>What I *do* see often is off-handed remarks about Harleys even when
>there isn't any Japanese bike bashing going on..pot-kettle-black.

So where exactly did you get that in my roasting of Don?

What I do see is Harley types getting all twisted up in a knot every
time somebody engages in the kind of smarmy remarks they toss about.
No sympathies from this devil.

>I don't bash Japanese bikes, in fact I own both a Japanese bike and
>a Harley and like them both for two different reasons. If I had
>enough money, there's about *at least* a dozen Japanese, German and
>American iron I'd love to own.

I'm more of a one-bike kinda guy. I get commited and don't like to
"ride-around" on my sweetheart lest she get any funny ideas about
highside dynamics in the middle of a turn when she smells another
bike's seat on my leathers.

Henry H. Hansteen

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to

Demetrios wrote:

> I'm more of a one-bike kinda guy. I get commited and don't like to
> "ride-around" on my sweetheart lest she get any funny ideas about
> highside dynamics in the middle of a turn when she smells another
> bike's seat on my leathers.

You have to reach a mutual understanding and treat them both with
respect.

Dave Green

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
Demetrios (n...@spam.here) wrote:

: On 17 Oct 2000 16:40:54 GMT, dgr...@acs.ryerson.ca (Dave Green) wrote:

: >Hey, fuck you.

: Does your ISP charge by the word?

What more do I need to say? What part didn't you understand?

Jon

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
> You have first hand experience with servicing a Harley?

Yes

> What's this maintain a warranty thing?

Have seen poor saps who did their own service get run through the wringer
by HD when something needed a warranty fix. Read the Harley email groups
to get a good picture of how it really is, and what frequently breaks. You
can do your own work, but save every receipt for the materials. Btw, per
the HD fine print, if you don't have the dealer do the initial service at
500 or 1000 miles (depending on the model) your adequately screwed on the
warranty.

> I have no disappointments, other than I don't get to ride as
> much as I would like. Once you have a life, (Family and other
> responsibilities) you may understand)

I understand completely. If you actually clocked real mileage on that
Bacon, you might be surprised how often it was in the shop.


George

unread,
Oct 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM10/17/00
to
The fact that so many weighed in tells you all you need to know, truthfully
I don't own a "fatboy" or "Superglide" it costs me everything I can to keep
my 1200 Sportster but she's customed and reliable and
beautiful.....loaded.... but that's my choice, I'd rather ride a beautiful
bike (which it is) and have the payment and ride year round, If I would have
settled for anything less , for ME that would have been a tragedy. If you
are like me and like the Harley feel (and there is none like it).

It's respected and unless your showing your ass, you'll be respected. Show
me another Bike that comes with that. This is to some degree why they can
charge a premium. Some of us watched "Easyrider" and saw a little bit of
that in ourselves, Harley signifies that in somewhere (that is a statement
no manufacturer can make in the industry at least not in this country, maybe
Europe but certainly not in the U.S., Talk about Brand loyalty huh. The
premium you pay for has to do with the free spirited nature and socially
rebellious "No Fear" image that became connected to this product more so
than any other Motorcycle, in Guitars there are Les Pauls (Fender Strat, Les
Paul Deluxe) and in Motorcycles there are Harley's. Is you Self "Image"
Black leather jackets and Leather chaps over jeans OR

color coordinated leather suits wearing a helmet and talking to your CB
Friends or anyone of a number of self image variations,

If you want the roar of a straight pipe Harley with the wind screaming in
your face wearing nothing but a do rag on your head in a state that doesn't
have helmet laws while traveling with a few buddies 1000 + miles for a
Rally.Then you already know.

People treat ya differently
you know it is a brotherhood within a brotherhood.


All motorcyclists have a common bond that is a kind of brotherhood and
within that you have Harley Owners who share a common bond, a brotherhood,

You also have a brotherhood within the brother hood of those who don't own
Harleys and they have there opinions but differ on everything except they
think theirs is better , good I am most happy for you in a Zen sorta way.

try some simple questions:
A- Will it give me a hard on when I pull into Sturgis or lets say a
Cherokee or a Daytona HOG Rally
after crossing the country the hard way, on my Harley.

B- would trailering something else off my RV make the whole family
happy....

C- would you give a fuck either way ?


Wrong mistakes are expensive to correct (I would have ended up stuck with
the bike I didn't want or sell it and then NOT be able to afford my Harley.)

I put 12-14 K miles a year on this machine now.
and love every loud mile.

I looked at real nice BMW's $14K range nice big touring and teetered and
twisted like hell between the Harley (with twin Bob gas tanks, real low to
the ground, forward controls, highway pegs lots of chrome nice custom 6
color metallic paint job) saddle bags , Tool Bag on the forks.

Well
I bought the Harley and it took 6 months to fully realize how important
that was and I was real Thankful I had that bike. If your not sure don't
buy, WAIT, Soon you'll be tempted after riding season is over to get rid of
it maybe get that Harley if you even think you want to ride a Harley now,

It's about who you are , only you can define that.

And I agree that everyone has a right to Own A Harley or something else,,,,,
go buy it if you want "something else" . Why is it so damn obvious to me
that people WHO have never ridden not even a ride seem to ask if themselves
If I owned a Motorcycle would it be a Harley or if they would want
"Something Else". First Time my Son ever heard and saw a Harley (He Was 2
and a 1/2) I didn't own a Bike then either and I could see the amazement in
his eyes. Because you thought enough about it to put it out here.... MAYBE
signifies it's eating at ya..................... already. Scary ain't it
"Vincent price Laugh goes right Here"

"mortimer snerd" <nom...@this.address> wrote in message
news:nomail-1710...@64-31-207-198.pdq.net...
> In article <39edda0e.5271610@news>, langkd_...@home.com (Road Glidin'
> Don) wrote:
>
>
> > What I found odd (just in general, I'm not sure if it relates to your
> > post) is that some people get sticker shock just on the basis that a
> > motorcycle should not be worth a lot of money (i.e. because it's just
> > a toy).
>
> I think it goes even deeper than that sometimes. Some people get, um,
> emotional when the price of a bike is comparable to a car or pickup truck
> and they can't justify that for whatever reasons. Sometimes it's also
> plain old envy or jealousy that someone else can drop major coin on
> something they can't justify or afford to buy themselves. Harley RUB
> becomes a standard moniker