Using both brakes - Part Two
Larry G.
much that I'll need to get a new BIGGER helmet soon since my brain is
swelling from all the experience and information here! :-)
So, part two to the question of the rear brake has the following
scenario....
I'm on the highway in top gear, moving at 55 mph. Up ahead, brake
lights abound and all the cages are hitting the brakes hard. I have a
sufficient cushion, but it is rapidly shrinking, so I go into
emergency mode and get on the front and rear brakes and squeeze
increasingly firmly, but not jerking or panicing. Clutch is in and I
prepare to downshift. A second later, I feel the rear wheel lock up
and am sliding forward and slightly to the left (or right).
Whatever caused the initial hard braking is gone and cages ahead are
now off the brakes and moving. I am, however, in a rear wheel lock
situation in which the MSF says to ride it to a stop with the wheel
locked. I have traffic behind me that will most likely turn me into a
strawberry sundae if I don't get off the brake and move, yet I
certainly want to avoid a potential crash (low or high side).
What have the experienced folk done in a situation like this? I have
NOT experienced this myself, however, I had a friend who I knew for
many years who was killed on the parkway after something very
similar. His rear wheel locked, started a rear slide, low or high
sided the bike (not sure which) and then got run over by a cage who
couldn't stop in time and floored the pedal to get away.
BEFORE I get into a situation like this, I'd love feedback as to how
to get out of it with a whole skin.
Larry
'01 Vulcan 500LTD
Rodger Donaldson
>
>Whatever caused the initial hard braking is gone and cages ahead are
>now off the brakes and moving. I am, however, in a rear wheel lock
>situation in which the MSF says to ride it to a stop with the wheel
>locked. I have traffic behind me that will most likely turn me into a
>strawberry sundae if I don't get off the brake and move, yet I
>certainly want to avoid a potential crash (low or high side).
Quaint advice - the advice I've always been given by instructors (and
used succesffuly in emergency stops, since I suffer from a bit of a
lead brake foot) is to pump the brakes (that is release and reapply),
not leave them locked up.
If you no longer need to brake, by all means release the rear and ride
on. What was the rationale from the course for skidding to a halt?
--
Rodger Donaldson rod...@diaspora.gen.nz
John
(Rodger Donaldson) wrote:
>If you no longer need to brake, by all means release the rear and ride
>on. What was the rationale from the course for skidding to a halt?
Probably to avoid a high-side if the rear get too far off to the side.
--
John
Apple Valley, MN
'02 FZ1
'73 RD350
Larry G.
high side spill when the wheel abruptly regains traction. I can
intellectually understand this, but I was wondering how this
really applies in real life.
Your "brake pumping" exercise is one I didn't consider applying
to motorcycling since it wasn't mentioned once during the course.
BUT...I have used that many, many times in my car with great success
in emergency stop conditions.
The learning never stops!
Larry
On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:15:18 +1300, rod...@israel.diaspora.gen.nz
(Rodger Donaldson) wrote:
John
wrote:
>BEFORE I get into a situation like this, I'd love feedback as to how
>to get out of it with a whole skin.
BEFORE you get into this situation, get out and practice how to avoid
getting into it in the first place, that is, not locking the rear
wheel.
I don't know where you live, but in my area there are all sorts of
park-and-ride lots that are utterly vacant on Sundays. Get thee to a
similar arrangement. Practice applying pressure to the rear brake
until it begins to lock. Do this at a slow speed, not more than 20mph.
Get used to where the brake locks and with how much pressure it takes
to lock up AT THAT SPEED. You should do this with your front brake as
well. Practice with those brakes until you are familiar with just how
much pressure it takes to lock them up. Then you'll know how much
pressure you can apply for maximum braking.
I use both brakes. The rear goes on just a blink ahead of the front.
That just begins the weight transfer forward and settles the rear. The
front comes on light with building pressure until I am braking to the
degree I want. I never jam on the rear brake. It is used to assist the
front. That's all. But if your do lock the rear up and it doesn't
slide out too far, just release it. "Too far" is going to be a matter
for you to sort out. Maybe someone else here will offer up some advice
about that.
... and spend the money on that book I mentioned.
Best of luck,
Jim Williamson
>They emphasized that releasing a locked rear wheel could cause a
>high side spill when the wheel abruptly regains traction. I can
>intellectually understand this, but I was wondering how this
>really applies in real life.
It depends upon how far the rear is out of line with the front and the
energy changed when it comes back into line (at lower speeds you may be
able to tolerate it getting farther out of line).
Classic example of the rear kicking out then regaining traction and wanting
to IMMEDIATELY get back in line with the front tire:
This vid is (probably) under power (vs under braking) but the result to me
is much the same. Pay close attention to the first several frames.
1.3MB MPA video
http://www.jimwilliamson.net/temp/guy_flies_off.mpa
It's in the temp area so I'll pull it down in a week or so.
Jim
Timberwoof
Larry G. <lgue...@optonline.net> wrote:
A couple of years ago I took my big pig of a dirt bike out for a
dirt-bike clinic -- they had a whole section for those of riding big
pigs like BMW F650GS, R-GS, and Triumph Tiger. Anyway, one of the
exercises was to ride around on that big dirt field and deliberately
lock up the rear so it would skid sideways some, and recover by steering
into the skid. A few weeks later I got surprised by a bit of freeway
onranp that was slicker than I expected. As I accelerated, the rear end
broke loose a bit. I steered into it and thatcorrected the problem.
As for the situaiton you describe ... if you see a sea of brake lights
on the freeway ahead, you might as well slow down a lot. Those cars are
braking for a reason. Keep that two-second following distance always.
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>
faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml
bike: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle
P.Roehling
"Larry G." <lgue...@optonline.net> wrote
> I'm on the highway in top gear, moving at 55 mph. Up ahead, brake
> lights abound and all the cages are hitting the brakes hard. I have a
> sufficient cushion, but it is rapidly shrinking, so I go into
> emergency mode and get on the front and rear brakes and squeeze
> increasingly firmly, but not jerking or panicing. Clutch is in and I
> prepare to downshift. A second later, I feel the rear wheel lock up
> and am sliding forward and slightly to the left (or right).
>
> Whatever caused the initial hard braking is gone and cages ahead are
> now off the brakes and moving. I am, however, in a rear wheel lock
> situation in which the MSF says to ride it to a stop with the wheel
> locked.
Insane. You said a *slight* slide to the left, and that's no big whoop: just
get off of the brakes and let the bike straighten itself out. (And if you'd
eased off the rear brake as soon as you felt the rear wheel begin to lock,
you wouldn't have been sideways to begin with.)
If you'd been (say) more than 30 degrees or so sideways you might have
highsided as the bike straightened back out, but unless you overcorrect or
do something dumb it isn't too difficult to ride out a small deflection as
long as you catch it fast.
As you pointed out; often doing nothing is the worst thing you can do.
P.
mjt
> What have the experienced folk done in a situation like this?
... "depends". you have to gauge how far the rear has slid
out of alignment, and the best way to know this is to take
your bike on an empty parking lot or grassy offroad area.
current speed has a lot to do with it as more speed equals
more momentum (more apt to high-side).
.
--
/// Michael J. Tobler: motorcyclist, surfer, skydiver, \\\
\\\ and author: "Inside Linux", "C++ HowTo", "C++ Unleashed" ///
Even if you do learn to speak correct English, whom are you
going to speak it to? - Clarence Darrow
aruff
"Rodger Donaldson" <rod...@israel.diaspora.gen.nz> wrote in message
news:slrnbs5pb4....@israel.diaspora.gen.nz...
By pumping the brakes, in theory, you're producing the same effect ABS
brakes. Practicing the right amount of release and re-application pressure
on the brakes can make this a good technique to use.
Brennan
In my personal experience, I have locked up the rear a couple of
times. Twice in the MSF course, where they advised not letting off
until the bike was full stopped, but I let up before that point both
times. Once in a real situation, when I accelerated from a right turn
into a traffic pattern, looking left, and not realizing traffic had
stopped in the direction I was turning. That one was a slightly
higher speed, and produced a lot more wobble, but I let off again
before I was completely stopped, and in none of these cases did I have
a problem.
In the video, the rider is leaned way over in a turn and is at high
speed when he lets off. What would I do in the situation the OP
described? Using the oft-spoken reeky logic that you never crash a
bike to avoid a crash, if it truly looked inevitable that if I did not
let off the wheel lock and accelerate out of the situation I would be
street meat, then I would do it - let off and get out of there. If
the let-off caused a get-off, I'm still wrecked.
While we're on the subject of crashing, I was visiting family back in
October, and was riding to the hardware store with my brother when he
told me a story about an acquaintance who was killed in a bike wreck.
The story was going along and "...he did everything you're supposed to
do; when he saw he was going to wreck he laid it down...." At that
point I let him finish the story, but I'm sure I went white (er,
whiter). I explained that that's exactly what you are not supposed to
do, and had the guy not laid it down, he might have survived. The
conclusion was that he laid it down, the bike slid into the vehicle in
front and bounced back on top of the rider. DOA.
--
Al - '98 FLTRI
- '98 T409 EN
- '83 GR650
- '57 6T alt.possessive.its.has.no.apostrophe
Cam Penner
lgue...@optonline.net says...
> increasingly firmly, but not jerking or panicing. Clutch is in and I
> prepare to downshift. A second later, I feel the rear wheel lock up
> and am sliding forward and slightly to the left (or right).
In my experience, the trick is to release the rear brake
before it gets too far out of line. If it gets way out of
line, that's a much trickier proposition.
The key in this experience is to look WAY WAY ahead of you.
That will force you to steer properly, and the rear will
come back in line much easier. Before releasing the brake
mentally prepare yourself for the bike to "snap" back in
line, but don't grip the bars too hard (locking your elbows
is bad).
The best way to get ready for this? Do some dirt bike
riding. Lock and slide the rear all over. Great fun and
practise.
--
Cam
'89 RZ 350
jim rozen
>What have the experienced folk done in a situation like this?
Well I wasn't experienced at the time, but this happened to me.
Heavy traffic, and a car pulled out directly in front of me.
Hard on the brakes, weight transfered enough that the rear
broke loose, and when I got off the brakes it hooked back up
and gave the bike a good headshake, but there was no highside.
1) the speed was low enough (below 30mph) and I had
already scrubbed some off before the wheel locked.
2) I was headed straight and the rear never had much
chance to walk sideways.
Jim
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================
jim rozen
>The best way to get ready for this? Do some dirt bike
>riding. Lock and slide the rear all over. Great fun and
>practise.
Important safety tip: Don't do that when you're
heading down a really long steep muddy hill,
studded with wet rocks. It really hurts when the
bike falls over on your leg. I thought it would
be best to crash up near the top, when I was
going slow, rather than work up some good momentum
and crash at the bottom.
Don Fearn
> Thanks to everyone who responded to my first post. I am learning so
> much that I'll need to get a new BIGGER helmet soon since my brain is
> swelling from all the experience and information here! :-)
>
> So, part two to the question of the rear brake has the following
> scenario....
Whatever caused the initial hard braking is gone and cages ahead are
> now off the brakes and moving. I am, however, in a rear wheel lock
> situation in which the MSF says to ride it to a stop with the wheel
> locked. I have traffic behind me that will most likely turn me into a
> strawberry sundae if I don't get off the brake and move, yet I
> certainly want to avoid a potential crash (low or high side).
>
> What have the experienced folk done in a situation like this?
I know the theory is to ride out a rear-wheel skid, but the only time
I've done that is during MSF classes. In real-life situations, as soon
as I felt the back end get squirrely, I've automatically turned into
the skid and let off the rear brake.
I understand turning into the skid; it's what I've learned to do from
years of riding/driving/riding (bicycle/car/motorcycle). Why I let up
the rear brake, I dunno. Not from practice, 'cause when I practice
braking (something I do regularly -- at least for the first ride in
each spring) I'm trying to brake to the maximum *without* any
skidding. Or maybe the rear-wheel skid happens more often than I think
and I've practicing letting off the rear brake . . . .
Anyway, I've never had the dreaded rear-wheel-skid-high-side happen,
but I have skidded the rear wheel a time or two in all-out panic stops.
pooder was here trying to avoid those situations
Cam Penner
jim_m...@newsguy.com says...
> In article <MPG.1a2d30c8a...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>, Cam Penner says...
>
> >The best way to get ready for this? Do some dirt bike
> >riding. Lock and slide the rear all over. Great fun and
> >practise.
>
> Important safety tip: Don't do that when you're
> heading down a really long steep muddy hill,
> studded with wet rocks. It really hurts when the
> bike falls over on your leg. I thought it would
> be best to crash up near the top, when I was
> going slow, rather than work up some good momentum
> and crash at the bottom.
Also known as the "crash early and crash often" school of
safety. ;)
Chris Stumpf
>Thanks to everyone who responded to my first post. I am learning so
>much that I'll need to get a new BIGGER helmet soon since my brain is
>swelling from all the experience and information here! :-)
>
>So, part two to the question of the rear brake has the following
>scenario....
>
>I'm on the highway in top gear, moving at 55 mph. Up ahead, brake
>lights abound and all the cages are hitting the brakes hard. I have a
>sufficient cushion, but it is rapidly shrinking, so I go into
>emergency mode and get on the front and rear brakes and squeeze
Deadly mistake number one, you panic and go into emergency braking mode when
it should be completely unneccessary.
>increasingly firmly, but not jerking or panicing. Clutch is in and I
Deadly mistake number 2, clutch should be out, unless you are almost stopped
or are gonna stop in the next 100 ft.
>prepare to downshift. A second later, I feel the rear wheel lock up
>and am sliding forward and slightly to the left (or right).
>
The rear wheel would not have locked up if you had left the clutch out, or
excuted a proper downshift or 2. The engine will keep the rear wheel
spinning and prevent the lockup.
>Whatever caused the initial hard braking is gone and cages ahead are
>now off the brakes and moving. I am, however, in a rear wheel lock
>situation in which the MSF says to ride it to a stop with the wheel
>locked. I have traffic behind me that will most likely turn me into a
>strawberry sundae if I don't get off the brake and move, yet I
>certainly want to avoid a potential crash (low or high side).
>
So release the rear brake, the bike should still be upright, not leaned over.
It may still snap and wiggle when you release the brake, but the risk of a
high side is almost nil in this situation. Of course if the rear is more
than 6 or so inches off line, then you might want to stand up on the pegs and
hold the bars firmly. It's an old dirt riding trick that has kept my ass
from getting spit off more times than I can count. Like one time when I was
leaned over hard and the rear stepped out 2-3 feet and then regained traction
as I cleared the slippery spot. The rider behind me thought I was a gonner,
but I held on because I stood up and the seat couldn't buck me off like a
bull at a rodeo. I let my legs act as shock absorbers.
BTW, standing up on the pegs is kinda difficult on a cruiser like yours. I
ride a sport bike.
M. J. Freeman
rec.motorcycles:
> As for the situaiton you describe ... if you see a sea of brake
> lights on the freeway ahead, you might as well slow down a lot.
> Those cars are braking for a reason. Keep that two-second
> following distance always.
Indeed, the "sea of brake lights" scenerio really shouldn't ever cause
you to panic brake. You should see it coming, and be on your brakes
long before the moron in the car in front of you gets on his/hers.
--
Michael J. Freeman Cincinnati, OH
'85 VF700S (The Leper) mike_f...@SPMBLOKmac.com
"Insanity runs in the family; it practically gallops"
Ellison, H. Thompson, D. Parker, Prince, SRV, Led Zep
Cam Penner
<pfghzcszbazbhgupb...@news.dslextreme.com>,
cst...@monmouth.com says...
> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:06:42 -0500, Larry G. wrote:
> >increasingly firmly, but not jerking or panicing. Clutch is in and I
>
> Deadly mistake number 2, clutch should be out, unless you are almost stopped
> or are gonna stop in the next 100 ft.
I disagree here. If you are in PANIC braking mode (which
the original poster admitted to being in), grab the clutch
and hold it in. Your brain has enough to concentrate on
without worrying about downshifting.
Pull in with both hands, push down with both feet.
> >prepare to downshift. A second later, I feel the rear wheel lock up
> >and am sliding forward and slightly to the left (or right).
> >
> The rear wheel would not have locked up if you had left the clutch out, or
> excuted a proper downshift or 2. The engine will keep the rear wheel
> spinning and prevent the lockup.
Not correct. Brakes will overpower the engine without
problem on just about every bike on the road. Even moreso
when the throttle is closed. The only way to prevent a
rear lockup by using the engine is to whack open the
throttle, while not applying the brakes fully.
muse
wrote:
With my limited experience in sudden stopping situations, what
seems instinctive to me has always been to apply steady but firm
pressure to the front brake and have my foot in position for the rear.
If I see that my braking is not reducing my speed at a quick enough
pace with only the front brake, then I start to use some rear brake
as an extra incentive. By this time the speed of the bike has already
been greatlly reduced. It just seems instictive to me.
I am a front brake person myself. I hardly ever use the rear
brake. When approaching normal stops, I always pump the front
brake a couple of times with light pressure well ahead of the stop.
It flashes your rear brake light to warn a car behind you and sets
up the initial slowdown. I still practice the rear brake in low
traffic areas in case I need it. I find it harder to access the rear
brake pedal. Its almost a fumble around situation to raise the foot
up and access the rear brake pedal. I am not as dexterious with
my foot as I am with my hand. Its kind of like the situation of the
foot does not realize its own strength. The lifetime of driving cages
and slamming on the brakes with the right foot in emergencies
tends to carry over subconsciously when riding the motorcycle.
I like to think of braking on the bike as a whole new system and
using my hand on the front break lever keeps me in that mindset.
r_kleinschmidt
1) If you gave yourself enough braking distance you wouldn't
need to be panic stopping in the first place.
2) Most of your braking is from the front brake anyway and
this is what you should be counting on to stop you quickly.
3) You should be moderating the rear braking so that you don't
get into a slide in the first place. Your weight is shifted
as far back as possible and you're paying atention to the
little motions coming from the rear of the bike as the rear
wheel starts to skip and grab. Do NOT slam on the rear brake
as hard as you can. That can be seriously dangerous.
4) You need to practice this beforehand in a parking lot or
even better, on dirt or gravel where there's marginal
traction. If you're planning to be riding in any kind of
winter weather, I'd start working on it now.
5) I think the MSF was talking about cases where you had to come
to a full stop. I don't think they'd ever advocate stopping
in moving traffic.
6) If the MSF told you to jump off a roof, would you jump ?
jim rozen
>I disagree here. If you are in PANIC braking mode (which
>the original poster admitted to being in), grab the clutch
>and hold it in. Your brain has enough to concentrate on
>without worrying about downshifting.
Yep. I've found that when in typical screaming
panic stops, the event ends with the motor stalled,
and in whatever gear I happened to be in at the
time.
Sometimes it's cause I grabbed the clutch on the
way, and then dropped it out once stopped, thereby
stalling the motor, or that I simply triaged the
functions, and put all the neurons into brake
mode, and never touched the clutch.
jim rozen
>Also known as the "crash early and crash often" school of
>safety. ;)
Yep. This is why I bought the dual sport. To do
some 'safe' crashing.
Brennan
with:
>6) If the MSF told you to jump off a roof, would you jump ?
Depends on who is in the hot tub on the deck.
Henry H. Hansteen
> They emphasized that releasing a locked rear wheel could cause a
> high side spill when the wheel abruptly regains traction. I can
> intellectually understand this, but I was wondering how this
> really applies in real life.
Every situation is different, and in my opinion, it's a huge
mistake to tell new riders to leave the rear tire locked up
until you stop if you lock it up by mistake. If the back end
of the bike isn't too far out of line, release the brake and
ride on. Exactly when it's too far out of line is dependent
on many factors, but primarily experience and ability.
> Your "brake pumping" exercise is one I didn't consider applying
> to motorcycling since it wasn't mentioned once during the course.
> BUT...I have used that many, many times in my car with great success
> in emergency stop conditions.
You'll stop more quickly and smoothly by getting on the
brakes and staying on them, than you will by pumping them.
> The learning never stops!
That's for sure!
--
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/hhh3/
http://911truth.org/
http://globalresearch.ca/
"I think this is the worst government the US has ever
had in its more than 200 years of history. It has
engaged in extraordinarily irresponsible policies not
only in foreign policy and economics but also in social
and environmental policy.....This is not normal government
policy. Now is the time for people to engage in civil
disobedience. I think it's time to protest - as much as
possible....What we have here is a form of looting."
- George A. Akerlof, 2001 Nobel prize laureate economist
Don't let bu$h do to the United States what his very close
friend and top campaign contributor, Ken Lay, did to Enron...
SRQEagan
>mistake to tell new riders to leave the rear tire locked up
>until you stop if you lock it up by mistake. If the back end
>of the bike isn't too far out of line, release the brake and
>ride on. Exactly when it's too far out of line is dependent
>on many factors, but primarily experience and ability.
>
Holy shit! You're as bad as another poster on here who shall-not-be-named!
You presume to give riding advice, and your "expert" opinion, when you do less
than 500 miles of riding per year? That's a thousand times worse than the
political drivel you spew into this NG.
>> Your "brake pumping" exercise is one I didn't consider applying
>> to motorcycling since it wasn't mentioned once during the course.
>> BUT...I have used that many, many times in my car with great success
>> in emergency stop conditions.
>
> You'll stop more quickly and smoothly by getting on the
>brakes and staying on them, than you will by pumping them.
>
Never mind, I'll just kill file you now. It's not because of your political
opinions, Henry. It's because I now know, after reading the above, that you
truly are a non-riding idiot.
You may now join Moto in the twit bin.
Iggy
'01 Dyna Super Glide
'96 Mustang GT Convertible
Keep your powder dry and don't let your meat-loaf. :o)
Reassembler
practiced locking up the rear, and releasing it. I wanted to know when it
would lock. Somehow, the world kept turning.
Reassembler
Henry H. Hansteen
> > Every situation is different, and in my opinion, it's a huge
> >mistake to tell new riders to leave the rear tire locked up
> >until you stop if you lock it up by mistake. If the back end
> >of the bike isn't too far out of line, release the brake and
> >ride on. Exactly when it's too far out of line is dependent
> >on many factors, but primarily experience and ability.
> Holy shit! You're as bad as another poster on here who shall-not-be-named!
> You presume to give riding advice, and your "expert" opinion, when you do less
> than 500 miles of riding per year? That's a thousand times worse than the
> political drivel you spew into this NG.
Itchy, I did more riding in my teens and twenties than you will in
your lifetime. Dirt and street. Never once wrecked on the street in
25+ years of riding. You do a lot of bitching and crying, but you
never explain what it is that you're disputing - you just cry like
a hysterical child who needs a nap. If you really "think" it's best
to keep the rear tire locked at 70mph on the freeway until you come
to a full stop, tell us why. C'mon, it'll be fun! ;-)
> > You'll stop more quickly and smoothly by getting on the
> >brakes and staying on them, than you will by pumping them.
> Never mind, I'll just kill file you now. It's not because of your political
> opinions, Henry. It's because I now know, after reading the above, that you
> truly are a non-riding idiot.
You've confused your brake pedal with your needle dick, itchy.
Just because you pump away feverishly on that all day long to
get the desired result, doesn't mean you do the same with a
brake lever. Pumping the brakes unloads the front suspension,
wastes precious braking time, and increases the stopping
distance. Any fool should be able to understand something that
basic - even you. Now go hide in your killfile before your
ignorance and stupidity get someone killed, boy!
PS
Your attributes are still wrong.
--
http://911truth.org/
http://globalresearch.ca/
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jenner
>
> Whatever caused the initial hard braking is gone and cages ahead are now
> off the brakes and moving. I am, however, in a rear wheel lock situation
> in which the MSF says to ride it to a stop with the wheel locked. I have
> traffic behind me that will most likely turn me into a strawberry sundae
> if I don't get off the brake and move, yet I certainly want to avoid a
> potential crash (low or high side).
If you are far enough out of line, you may highside. Too many experienced
riders in this forum just don't get how to pass their experience to
newbies. Simple fact is, just becasue I can toss a bike through the
twisties using my skill set, after riding since 1974, doesn't mean it will
work for a rider who has been on the road since Jan of 2003.
Sure, if you have the bars straight and you let off gradually, you may get
out of the rear slide without highsiding. Simple fact is, the MSF advice
is for riders who don't know *squat* about controlling a motorcycle.
Before convincing yourself that you know more than you do, it isn't a bad
idea to follow their advice. Most riders to get into accidents get over
their heads specifically because their over-estimated thier skill set.
Period.
>
> What have the experienced folk done in a situation like this? I have NOT
> experienced this myself, however, I had a friend who I knew for many years
> who was killed on the parkway after something very similar. His rear
> wheel locked, started a rear slide, low or high sided the bike (not sure
> which) and then got run over by a cage who couldn't stop in time and
> floored the pedal to get away.
>
> BEFORE I get into a situation like this, I'd love feedback as to how to
> get out of it with a whole skin.
Get thee to a dirt bike and learn what a sliding motorcycle is like. It
will save your ass someday.
Trust this MSF Rider Coach on this.
--
-- jenner
jenner
> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:06:42 -0500, Larry G. <lgue...@optonline.net>
> wrote:
>>
>>Whatever caused the initial hard braking is gone and cages ahead are now
>>off the brakes and moving. I am, however, in a rear wheel lock situation
>>in which the MSF says to ride it to a stop with the wheel locked. I have
>>traffic behind me that will most likely turn me into a strawberry sundae
>>if I don't get off the brake and move, yet I certainly want to avoid a
>>potential crash (low or high side).
>
> Quaint advice - the advice I've always been given by instructors (and used
> succesffuly in emergency stops, since I suffer from a bit of a lead brake
> foot) is to pump the brakes (that is release and reapply), not leave them
> locked up.
When you pump the brakes you aren't using them properly. You squeeeeeeeze
and apply progressively firmer pressure until you slow to the level you
need. Any 'instructor' who advises you use engine braking or pumping
brakes to stop is giving bad advice, commonly known as "old wives tales".
> If you no longer need to brake, by all means release the rear and ride on.
> What was the rationale from the course for skidding to a halt?
Learning not to high side, which can result in an inexperienced rider
letting the brakes go when the bike is too far out of line.
Simple fact is, the course is designed to help *brand new riders* learn to
survive this sport.
By the way, they have removed the skid to a stop exercise in the new
curriculum.
--
-- jenner
jenner
> "Larry G." wrote:
>
>> They emphasized that releasing a locked rear wheel could cause a high
>> side spill when the wheel abruptly regains traction. I can
>> intellectually understand this, but I was wondering how this really
>> applies in real life.
>
> Every situation is different, and in my opinion, it's a huge
> mistake to tell new riders to leave the rear tire locked up until you stop
> if you lock it up by mistake. If the back end of the bike isn't too far
> out of line,
How they do they know if it's too far out of line you fookin uncertified,
untrained, instructor!!!!???
Sheesh! Some people, thinking their lucky pass though the initiation of
motorcycling makes them a good teacher.
--
-- jenner
jenner
> SRQEagan wrote:
>
>> > Every situation is different, and in my opinion, it's a huge
>> >mistake to tell new riders to leave the rear tire locked up until you
>> >stop if you lock it up by mistake. If the back end of the bike isn't
>> >too far out of line, release the brake and ride on. Exactly when it's
>> >too far out of line is dependent on many factors, but primarily
>> >experience and ability.
>
>> Holy shit! You're as bad as another poster on here who
>> shall-not-be-named! You presume to give riding advice, and your "expert"
>> opinion, when you do less than 500 miles of riding per year? That's a
>> thousand times worse than the political drivel you spew into this NG.
>
> Itchy, I did more riding in my teens and twenties than you will in
> your lifetime.
Ever bother to get certified in the program you are criticizing.
I have criticized the program and I bothered.
-- jenner
jenner
> Timberwoof <timberw...@infernosoft.com> posted in rec.motorcycles:
>
>> As for the situaiton you describe ... if you see a sea of brake lights
>> on the freeway ahead, you might as well slow down a lot. Those cars are
>> braking for a reason. Keep that two-second following distance always.
>
> Indeed, the "sea of brake lights" scenerio really shouldn't ever cause you
> to panic brake. You should see it coming,
NO freekin shit.
--
-- jenner
SRQEagan
>> your lifetime.
>
>Ever bother to get certified in the program you are criticizing.
>
>I have criticized the program and I bothered.
>
>
>-- jenner
No, he doesn't like to bother with little things like facts.
Rodger Donaldson
wrote:
>On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:15:18 +1300, Rodger Donaldson wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:06:42 -0500, Larry G. <lgue...@optonline.net>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>Whatever caused the initial hard braking is gone and cages ahead are now
>>>off the brakes and moving. I am, however, in a rear wheel lock situation
>>>in which the MSF says to ride it to a stop with the wheel locked. I have
>>>traffic behind me that will most likely turn me into a strawberry sundae
>>>if I don't get off the brake and move, yet I certainly want to avoid a
>>>potential crash (low or high side).
>>
>> Quaint advice - the advice I've always been given by instructors (and used
>> succesffuly in emergency stops, since I suffer from a bit of a lead brake
>> foot) is to pump the brakes (that is release and reapply), not leave them
>> locked up.
>
>When you pump the brakes you aren't using them properly. You squeeeeeeeze
>and apply progressively firmer pressure until you slow to the level you
>need. Any 'instructor' who advises you use engine braking or pumping
>brakes to stop is giving bad advice, commonly known as "old wives tales".
You misunderstand me - I'm not suggesting (nor has it ever been
suggested to me) that pumping the brakes is the right thing to do in
ordinary circumstances, only in the situation where I have made the
mistake of locking the brakes in the first place and want to get back
to a controlled braking situation.
--
Rodger Donaldson rod...@diaspora.gen.nz
jim rozen
>Get thee to a dirt bike and learn what a sliding motorcycle is like. It
>will save your ass someday.
A dirt bike, ridden *on* *dirt*. Most off road or dual
sport bikes don't have enough rear brake to lock a wheel
when on pavement, especially given the tires.
jenner
> You misunderstand me - I'm not suggesting (nor has it ever been suggested
> to me) that pumping the brakes is the right thing to do in ordinary
> circumstances, only in the situation where I have made the mistake of
> locking the brakes in the first place and want to get back to a controlled
> braking situation.
got it. You aren't talking pumping but releasing then reapplying, then
not releasing, etc.
--
-- jenner
Henry H. Hansteen
> On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:13:54 -0500, Henry H. Hansteen wrote:
> > Every situation is different, and in my opinion, it's a huge
> > mistake to tell new riders to leave the rear tire locked up until you stop
> > if you lock it up by mistake. If the back end of the bike isn't too far
> > out of line,
> How they do they know if it's too far out of line you fookin
> uncertified, untrained, instructor!!!!???
That was included in the post you just replied to, but for some
strange reason, you deleted it as though it wasn't there. Here it
is again, exactly as it was written:
"Exactly when it's too far out of line is dependent on many
factors, but primarily experience and ability."
Do you advocate always leaving the rear tire locked up until
you come to a complete stop if it momentarily locks by accident?
If so, I sincerely hope you aren't teaching *anyone* to ride.
> Sheesh! Some people, thinking their lucky pass though the
> initiation of motorcycling makes them a good teacher.
Who claimed to be a good teacher?
--
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infrastructure in Iraq because in a few days we're going
to own that country." - Tom Brokaw 3-20-03
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Henry H. Hansteen
> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:46:58 -0500, Henry H. Hansteen wrote:
> >> > Every situation is different, and in my opinion, it's a huge
> >> >mistake to tell new riders to leave the rear tire locked up until you
> >> >stop if you lock it up by mistake. If the back end of the bike isn't
> >> >too far out of line, release the brake and ride on. Exactly when it's
> >> >too far out of line is dependent on many factors, but primarily
> >> >experience and ability.
> I have criticized the program and I bothered.
So, are you disputing anything I wrote above, or did you just
feel like sharing your credentials with us? If you're disputing
something I wrote, what is it, and why?
--
Amount of tax payer dollars spent investigating
Bill Clinton's private life - $100 million.
Amount of tax payer dollars allocated to investigate
the Bu$h regime's gross negligence and possible
complicity regarding the attacks on 9-11 - $3 million.
"One of the things we don't want to do is destroy the
infrastructure in Iraq because in a few days we're going
to own that country." - Tom Brokaw 3-20-03
http://regulareverydaypeople.com
http://robertfisk.com
Don't let bu$h do to the United States what his very close
Henry H. Hansteen
> No, he doesn't like to bother with little things like facts.
Sure he does. In fact, he just asked you what it is you're
whining about, but you just took off running and hiding rather
than address the facts. I'll be here ready to discuss them,
should you ever decide you're ready to deal with he specific
facts of emergency braking. ;-)
Henry H. Hansteen
> When you pump the brakes you aren't using them properly. You squeeeeeeeze
> and apply progressively firmer pressure until you slow to the level you
> need. Any 'instructor' who advises you use engine braking or pumping
> brakes to stop is giving bad advice, commonly known as "old wives tales".
Try explaining that to itchy. He still doesn't get it.
jenner
> jenner wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:46:58 -0500, Henry H. Hansteen wrote:
>
>> >> > Every situation is different, and in my opinion, it's a huge
>> >> >mistake to tell new riders to leave the rear tire locked up until
>> >> >you stop if you lock it up by mistake. If the back end of the bike
>> >> >isn't too far out of line, release the brake and ride on. Exactly
>> >> >when it's too far out of line is dependent on many factors, but
>> >> >primarily experience and ability.
>
>> I have criticized the program and I bothered.
>
> So, are you disputing anything I wrote above, or did you just
> feel like sharing your credentials with us? If you're disputing something
> I wrote, what is it, and why?
I'm disputing that you have a right to an informed opinion and you seem to
be providing more than ample evidence that I'm right.
And no, I will not bother explaining it to you, Henry.
--
-- jenner
jenner
> jenner wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:13:54 -0500, Henry H. Hansteen wrote:
>
>> > Every situation is different, and in my opinion, it's a huge
>> > mistake to tell new riders to leave the rear tire locked up until you
>> > stop if you lock it up by mistake. If the back end of the bike isn't
>> > too far out of line,
>
>> How they do they know if it's too far out of line you fookin
>> uncertified, untrained, instructor!!!!???
>
> That was included in the post you just replied to, but for some
> strange reason, you deleted it as though it wasn't there. Here it is
> again, exactly as it was written:
> "Exactly when it's too far out of line is dependent on many
> factors, but primarily experience and ability."
Two things which most newbies are sorely lacking.
My point stands about your ability to have an informed opinion.
> Do you advocate always leaving the rear tire locked up until
> you come to a complete stop if it momentarily locks by accident? If so, I
> sincerely hope you aren't teaching *anyone* to ride.
>
>> Sheesh! Some people, thinking their lucky pass though the initiation
>> of motorcycling makes them a good teacher.
>
> Who claimed to be a good teacher?
Sheesh! Some people, thinking their lucky pass though the initiation
of motorcycling makes them qualified to give relevant advice to new riders.
--
-- jenner
Rein
wrote:
>Thanks to everyone who responded to my first post. I am learning so
>much that I'll need to get a new BIGGER helmet soon since my brain is
>swelling from all the experience and information here! :-)
>
>So, part two to the question of the rear brake has the following
>scenario....
>
>I'm on the highway in top gear, moving at 55 mph. Up ahead, brake
>lights abound and all the cages are hitting the brakes hard. I have a
>sufficient cushion, but it is rapidly shrinking, so I go into
>emergency mode and get on the front and rear brakes and squeeze
>increasingly firmly, but not jerking or panicing. Clutch is in and I
>prepare to downshift. A second later, I feel the rear wheel lock up
>and am sliding forward and slightly to the left (or right).
>
>Whatever caused the initial hard braking is gone and cages ahead are
>now off the brakes and moving. I am, however, in a rear wheel lock
>situation in which the MSF says to ride it to a stop with the wheel
>locked. I have traffic behind me that will most likely turn me into a
>strawberry sundae if I don't get off the brake and move, yet I
>certainly want to avoid a potential crash (low or high side).
>
>What have the experienced folk done in a situation like this? I have
>NOT experienced this myself, however, I had a friend who I knew for
>many years who was killed on the parkway after something very
>similar. His rear wheel locked, started a rear slide, low or high
>sided the bike (not sure which) and then got run over by a cage who
>couldn't stop in time and floored the pedal to get away.
>
>BEFORE I get into a situation like this, I'd love feedback as to how
>to get out of it with a whole skin.
Learn to use your rear brake first. I only apply a minimal amount of
pressure to the rear, enough to give me some braking , but not enough
to lock up. This is more important on sportbikes. I guess if you do
hapen to lock up the rear brake, let it go BEFORE it gets out of line
too much. You'll be okay then.
Remove NO-SPAM from email address when replying
jim rozen
>> factors, but primarily experience and ability."
>
>Two things which most newbies are sorely lacking.
Well duh. What you are both saying is, a new rider
cannot expect to simply read a book, or take an 8 hour
course, and become an expert.
And that if one's skills are inexpert, and one is
deep enough in the soup, a crash will happen.
Either by staying on the brake, and getting rear
ended by traffic, or by getting off it when one
should not, and being high sided.
Yep, that covers it. Don't fly higher than you
would want to fall, don't drive faster than you
would want to crash. Moderate the ride according
to the traffic and conditions, or else.
Yes the MSF course is nice, it makes the novice at
least *aware* of the mechanics of riding, and gives
some boundary conditions.
I was going to say, the new rider can tell when he's
going too fast, or has allowed the bike to get too
far out of line, before releasing the rear brake - when
he gets high-sided. What's that saying, "experience
keeps a hard school, but fools will learn in no other."
Henry H. Hansteen
> On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 18:44:03 -0500, Henry H. Hansteen wrote:
> >> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:46:58 -0500, Henry H. Hansteen wrote:
> >> >> > Every situation is different, and in my opinion, it's a huge
> >> >> >mistake to tell new riders to leave the rear tire locked up until
> >> >> >you stop if you lock it up by mistake. If the back end of the bike
> >> >> >isn't too far out of line, release the brake and ride on. Exactly
> >> >> >when it's too far out of line is dependent on many factors, but
> >> >> >primarily experience and ability.
> > So, are you disputing anything I wrote above, or did you just
> > feel like sharing your credentials with us? If you're disputing
> > something I wrote, what is it, and why?
> I'm disputing that you have a right to an informed opinion and you
> seem to be providing more than ample evidence that I'm right.
WTF? Are you saying that only certified instructors are permitted
to answer questions about riding motorcycles on this forum? Again,
did I write something above that you feel is wrong, or did you
just feel like complaining about something - anything - again.
> And no, I will not bother explaining it to you, Henry.
No, of course you won't. That's because The only explanation
is that you're not making any sense and you have absolutely
no idea what it is that you're bitching about.
--
http://www.globalresearch.ca
http://www.911truth.org
Amount of tax payer dollars spent investigating
Bill Clinton's private life - $100 million.
Amount of tax payer dollars allocated to investigate
the Bu$h regime's gross negligence and possible
complicity regarding the attacks on 9-11 - $3 million.
"One of the things we don't want to do is destroy the
infrastructure in Iraq because in a few days we're going
to own that country." - Tom Brokaw 3-20-03
http://regulareverydaypeople.com
http://robertfisk.com
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com
Henry H. Hansteen
> On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 18:40:22 -0500, Henry H. Hansteen wrote:
> > jenner wrote:
> >> On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:13:54 -0500, Henry H. Hansteen wrote:
> >> > Every situation is different, and in my opinion, it's a huge
> >> > mistake to tell new riders to leave the rear tire locked up until you
> >> > stop if you lock it up by mistake. If the back end of the bike isn't
> >> > too far out of line,
> >> How they do they know if it's too far out of line you fookin
> >> uncertified, untrained, instructor!!!!???
> > That was included in the post you just replied to, but for some
> > strange reason, you deleted it as though it wasn't there. Here it is
> > again, exactly as it was written:
> > "Exactly when it's too far out of line is dependent on many
> > factors, but primarily experience and ability."
> Two things which most newbies are sorely lacking.
Quite true. So, do you teach newbies to always leave
their rear tire locked up until they come to a full
stop if they lock momentarily by mistake? On the freeway,
entering a tight curve, always, without exception? For
their sake, I certainly hope not.
> My point stands about your ability to have an informed
> opinion.
A piece of paper doesn't necessarily make one qualified to
hand out advice. It is not uncommon for instructors to give bad
advice. On the other hand, someone with almost 30 years of dirt
and street riding and without one street wreck must be doing
something right.
--
http://www.globalresearch.ca
http://www.911truth.org
Amount of tax payer dollars spent investigating
Bill Clinton's private life - $100 million.
Amount of tax payer dollars allocated to investigate
the Bu$h regime's gross negligence and possible
complicity regarding the attacks on 9-11 - $3 million.
"One of the things we don't want to do is destroy the
infrastructure in Iraq because in a few days we're going
to own that country." - Tom Brokaw 3-20-03
http://regulareverydaypeople.com
http://robertfisk.com
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com
jenner
> jenner wrote:
>> I'm disputing that you have a right to an informed opinion and you
>> seem to be providing more than ample evidence that I'm right.
>
> WTF? Are you saying that only certified instructors are permitted
> to answer questions about riding motorcycles on this forum? Again, did I
> write something above that you feel is wrong, or did you just feel like
> complaining about something - anything - again.
I'm questioning the validity of your opinion or any claim that the opinion
itself be respected regarding MSF curriculum or effectiveness, or the
relevance of various motorcycle lore to new riders.
Are you a certified instructor?
Have you passed the course?
Have you shadowed the course?
Have you even watched a full course?
>
>> And no, I will not bother explaining it to you, Henry.
>
> No, of course you won't. That's because The only explanation
> is that you're not making any sense and you have absolutely no idea what
> it is that you're bitching about.
I have every idea, Henry. I'm calling BS on old wives tales and thin
headed suppositions being passed off as relevant advice to new riders.
--
-- jenner
jenner
n
> A piece of paper doesn't necessarily make one qualified to
> hand out advice. It is not uncommon for instructors to give bad advice. On
> the other hand, someone with almost 30 years of dirt and street riding and
> without one street wreck must be doing something right.
You could be lucky. That doesn't mean you explain any part of riding lore
in a way that is relevant to new riders.
--
-- jenner
Henry H. Hansteen
> Henry Hansteen wrote:
> > Again, did I write something above that you feel is
> > wrong, or did you just feel like complaining about
> > something - anything - again.
> I'm questioning the validity of your opinion or any claim that
> the opinion itself be respected regarding MSF curriculum or
> effectiveness, or the relevance of various motorcycle lore to
> new riders.
Do you think my opinions regarding braking were wrong?
If so, what, specifically, are you disputing?
> I'm calling BS on old wives tales and thin headed
> suppositions being passed off as relevant advice to new riders.
What "thin headed suppositions"?
Let me ask you a third time. Did I write something about
braking that you disagree with? If so, what was it? Also
do you teach new riders to *always* leave the rear tire
locked up until they come to a complete stop if they lock
it momentarily by mistake at speed? If you're going to
complain about an opinion someone wrote, at least tell us
what it is you're disagreeing with. ithcy "thinks" you can
achieve the most effective braking by pumping the brakes,
and I disagreed with him. Is that what's bothering you?
--
http://www.globalresearch.ca
http://www.911truth.org
Don't let bu$h do to the United States what his very close
Henry H. Hansteen
> Henry H. Hansteen wrote:
> > A piece of paper doesn't necessarily make one qualified to
> > hand out advice. It is not uncommon for instructors to give bad
> > advice. On the other hand, someone with almost 30 years of dirt
> > and street riding and without one street wreck must be doing
> > something right.
> You could be lucky.
Could be. A little luck can't hurt.
> That doesn't mean you explain any part of riding lore
> in a way that is relevant to new riders.
So, did I write something about braking that was wrong and
you are disputing? If so, what was it? Share your immense
knowledge, and stop playing this silly guessing game, jen!
Someone's life could depend on it!
--
http://www.globalresearch.ca
http://www.911truth.org
http://regulareverydaypeople.com
"After all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy
and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether
it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a
communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be
brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to
do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers
for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works
the same in any country."
-- Hermann Goering, President of the Reichstag, Nazi Party, and
Luftwaffe Commander in Chief
SRQEagan
>achieve the most effective braking by pumping the brakes,
>and I disagreed with him. Is that what's bothering you?
No, I don't think that's it.....probably because I never said that at all. I
simply said that you had no business giving advice on a subject in which you
have so little knowledge. Henry, you simply do not ride...period.
jenner
> jenner wrote:
>> Henry Hansteen wrote:
>
>> > Again, did I write something above that you feel is wrong, or did you
>> > just feel like complaining about something - anything - again.
>
>> I'm questioning the validity of your opinion or any claim that the
>> opinion itself be respected regarding MSF curriculum or effectiveness,
>> or the relevance of various motorcycle lore to new riders.
>
> Do you think my opinions regarding braking were wrong?
No, not really and I think I may have gone a little too far in your case.
I apologize.
However, my point about old wives tales passed out as good advice still
stands, though you did not write anything specific to that point. I should
have made it clear I was speaking generally.
--
-- jenner
Henry H. Hansteen
> On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 18:25:32 -0500, Henry H. Hansteen wrote:
> > Do you think my opinions regarding braking were wrong?
> No, not really and I think I may have gone a little too far in your case.
> I apologize.
Apology appreciated and graciously accepted. ;->
> However, my point about old wives tales passed out as good advice still
> stands, though you did not write anything specific to that point. I should
> have made it clear I was speaking generally.
Crushing "old wives tales", myths, and outright lies is good
policy. I've been known to do that myself from time to time...
Henry
--
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Henry H. Hansteen
> >ithcy "thinks" you can
> >achieve the most effective braking by pumping the brakes,
> >and I disagreed with him. Is that what's bothering you?
> No, I don't think that's it.....probably because I never said
> that at all.
When I correctly pointed out pumping the brakes is a bad idea
and that you can achieve more effective braking by getting on
the brakes and staying on them, you had a baby fit and said it
was absurd. Of course, I was exactly right. You also said that
you were going to killfile me. That's two lies for you in one
post, itchy!
> Henry, you simply do not ride...period.
Make that three lies in one post. I rode both bikes just
yesterday, itch!
--
http://911truth.org/
http://globalresearch.ca/
http://regulareverydaypeople.com/
http://www.truthout.org/
http://www.commondreams.org/
http://counterpunch.org/
"After all, it is the leaders of the country who determine
the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the
people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the
bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to
do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the
peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country
to danger. It works the same in any country."
-- Hermann Goering, President of the Reichstag, Nazi Party, and
Luftwaffe Commander in Chief
Tom Whistler
> By the way, they have removed the skid to a stop exercise in the new
> curriculum.
That's too bad. I was glad we did that in class, so that I could get
the feel for riding out a rear wheel skid, on *their* bike, not mine.
Were too many people crashing I wonder?
jenner
> SRQEagan wrote:
>
>> >ithcy "thinks" you can
>> >achieve the most effective braking by pumping the brakes, and I
>> >disagreed with him. Is that what's bothering you?
>
>> No, I don't think that's it.....probably because I never said that at
>> all.
>
> When I correctly pointed out pumping the brakes is a bad idea
> and that you can achieve more effective braking by getting on the brakes
> and staying on them, you had a baby fit and said it was absurd. Of course,
> I was exactly right.
Technically, you aren't. Threshold braking is an important skill to have.
The only problem with it is it takes time to learn.
--
-- jenner
jenner
The given resons were:
1) it was causing some crashes
2) it doesn't teach any useful skill to new riders
3) the curriculum had them skidding the tire in one exercise then asking
them not to in the following one
--
-- jenner
Tim Morrow
No.
Henry H. Hansteen
So, how does that change the fact that staying on the brakes
at max threshold is a more effective way to stop than pumping
the brakes?
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