nighthawk 550 electrical problem
jlpridge
I recently (last week) purchased this motorcycle. IT runs well with a
fully charged battery. However after I ride it for awhile and then park
overnight it does not seem to want to run well at all. In fact the
battery dies and the bike will not even start. I do not leave the key
on or in it overnight. When I jump start it the bike starts up and as
soon as I disconnect the jumper cables it dies. I do not want to start
blindly replacing stuff. Please help. I do like this bike.
--
jlpridge
R. Pierce Butler
news:jlpridg...@news.motorbikebanter.com:
Something is draining the battery or the battery is bad. I have seen
batteries discharge themselves. Charge them up and they pass the current
draw test (barely). Let them sit and they are dead in 8 hours. To test
for this, charge the battery and leave it disconnected from the bike and
the charger overnight. Connect it to the bike in the morning. If the bike
starts OK then the battery is probably good.
If something is draining the battery, then you have to track it down. It
could be a bad rectifier/regulator, switch or ????.
pierce
Ron Seiden
news:jlpridg...@news.motorbikebanter.com...
age of the battery, odds are it's dead. Even batteries that are well cared
for and kept charged eventually die of old age (key symptom: won't hold a
charge). Would not cost too much to buy a replacement battery and install it
(after charging it for at least 24 hours after filling it). If you invest in
a new battery (an inevitability), it's worth your while to also invest in a
good trickle charger.
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R. Pierce Butler
news:1127389...@spool6-east.superfeed.net:
> "jlpridge" <jlpridg...@news.motorbikebanter.com> wrote in message
> news:jlpridg...@news.motorbikebanter.com...
>>
>> I recently (last week) purchased this motorcycle. IT runs well with a
>> fully charged battery. However after I ride it for awhile and then park
>> overnight it does not seem to want to run well at all. In fact the
>> battery dies and the bike will not even start. I do not leave the key
>> on or in it overnight. When I jump start it the bike starts up and as
>> soon as I disconnect the jumper cables it dies. I do not want to start
>> blindly replacing stuff. Please help. I do like this bike.
>>
> Assuming you checked the fluid level in your battery, if you don't know
> the age of the battery, odds are it's dead. Even batteries that are well
> cared for and kept charged eventually die of old age (key symptom: won't
> hold a charge). Would not cost too much to buy a replacement battery and
> install it (after charging it for at least 24 hours after filling it).
> If you invest in a new battery (an inevitability), it's worth your while
> to also invest in a good trickle charger.
>
>
All of the batteries I have bought were ready to go as soon as I brought
them home. I didn't have to charge them at all. Drop it in and fire the
bike up. Go for a nice ride and the bike will charge the battery.
pierce
krusty kritter
You need to start educating yourself on permanent magnet alternators
and shunt type rectifier regulators and the typical Honda problems with
bad electrical connections and too damned many of them.
I've written about a hundred thousand words on the subject and they are
all archived on Google, so you might try doing a google search for some
of my older e-mail addresses, like "kaybearjr@aol", and
"spectraltarsier@aol" +permanent magnet alternator and diodes and read
up on the subject, because I'm NOT going to type all that stuff out
again and I don't plan to put up a web page either.
And, you'd better start hoping that the problem is just bad electrical
connections, a defective rectifier regulator, or an old sulfated
battery that won't take a full charge, because the 1983 CB-550
Nighthawk was a glorious ONE YEAR ONLY model, and the aftermarket folks
DO NOT make a replacement stator for the weird alternator with its
2-piece permanent magnet rotor.
If nobody knows where you can get a good used stator (like a motorcycle
salvage yard, I wish you lotsa luck finding one for such a rare
motorbike), Honda will sell you a new one for about $275...
Also, google the internet for "stator +CB550 Nighthawk". Somebody
probably knows more than me about Nighthawks.
Electrosport and other companies do make aftermarket voltage
regulator/rectifier assemblies for your Nighthawk.
Some information about troubleshooting motorcycle charging systems can
be found here:
http://www.electrosport.com/05_technical_start.html
It may be more confusing than helpful. If I hadn't been to electrical
tech school, I would get anything at all out of their diode testing
procedure.
An exploded view of the weird split rotor alternator with its air
cooling fan can be seen at www.partsfish.com. Just register and you can
look at the alternator parts fiche for free.
I was trying to figure out how the alternator was driven, whether by
gear or chain, but it's unclear from the drawing. However it's driven,
the rotor MUST BE TURNING to charge the battery!
One of the things that the instructors attempted to pound into our
thick skulls at electrical tech school was that an alternator rotor
must be ROTATING in order to generate any juice, but a whole generation
of aircraft electricians was often fooled by that part of the
troubleshooting process. I've only run across one alternator whose
rotor wasn't turning though. It's something to keep in mind.
R. Pierce Butler
news:1127401009.0...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
What will blow your mind is a brushless alternator. That's right. No
brushes at all. It is an interesting design and it is one that I wish had
had more of a following.
pierce
R. Pierce Butler
news:Xns96D9B73F778B6m...@10.232.1.1:
BTW when I mean brushless I don't mean a permanent magnet alternator
either. It has a field coil, stator, etc. but no brushes.
pierce
krusty kritter
R. Pierce Butler wrote:
> What will blow your mind is a brushless alternator. That's right. No
> brushes at all. It is an interesting design and it is one that I wish had
> had more of a following.
Somebody else said that Honda used brushless alternators on some of
their earlier machines. Did the 550 Nighthawk also have a brushless
excited field alternator?
The concept of a brushless alternator is not alien to me. The B-52H had
125,000 volt amp brushless alternators. I vaguely recall that a DC
generator on one end of the rotating shaft somehow induced excitation
current into the AC rotor. I ran a few of them on the test stand at
Edwards AFB in the early 1960's.
R. Pierce Butler
The ones I am referring to are made by delco. The clamshell is connected
to the shaft at one end only. The allows the clamshell to slide between
the stator and the exciter coil (rotor coil?). Spiffy stuff but generally
used in heavy duty marine and heavy equipment only. The only moving parts
are the rotor and the bearings for the rotor. The only failures I have
seen are regulators and bearings. Saw a coil go open once. I took off
one layer of windings and that fixed that.
pierce
krusty kritter
R. Pierce Butler wrote:
> The ones I am referring to are made by delco. The clamshell is connected
> to the shaft at one end only. The allows the clamshell to slide between
> the stator and the exciter coil (rotor coil?). Spiffy stuff but generally
> used in heavy duty marine and heavy equipment only. The only moving parts
> are the rotor and the bearings for the rotor. The only failures I have
> seen are regulators and bearings. Saw a coil go open once. I took off
> one layer of windings and that fixed that.
Take a look at the alternator fiche for the 1983 CB550 Nighthawk if you
have time. It sounds similar to what you're describing, but the
"clamshell" is two parts with a locating pin.
And the regulator rectifier has TWO electrical connectors on it instead
of just one. I'd like to see a repair manual on that motorbike to see
what's up with the charging system...
R. Pierce Butler
It is my guess based on earlier diagrams that in previos years honda had a
seperate rectifier and regulator. When they combined them the two
functions into one box, they kept the connections separate meaning that
the recifier assy has it's own plug and the regulator has it's own plug
even though it is all part of the same module. With a setup like that one
can certainly diagnose the alternator easier. At least I think it is
easier.
pierce
jlpridge
>
> I recently (last week) purchased this motorcycle. IT runs well with a
> fully charged battery. However after I ride it for awhile and then
> park
> overnight it does not seem to want to run well at all. In fact the
> battery dies and the bike will not even start. I do not leave the
> key
> on or in it overnight. When I jump start it the bike starts up and as
> soon as I disconnect the jumper cables it dies. I do not want to
> start
> blindly replacing stuff. Please help. I do like this bike.
> Assuming you checked the fluid level in your battery, if you don't know
> the
> age of the battery, odds are it's dead. Even batteries that are well
> cared
> for and kept charged eventually die of old age (key symptom: won't hold
> a
> charge). Would not cost too much to buy a replacement battery and
> install it
> (after charging it for at least 24 hours after filling it). If you
> invest in
> a new battery (an inevitability), it's worth your while to also invest
> in a
> good trickle charger.
>
>
>
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The battery is brand new as of monday. I am purchasing a multimeter
today to start testing stuff. I have not received my clymer manual yet
so I am not sure how to test the rectifier and the stator. If any of
you have any info on that it would be most helpful.
--
jlpridge
jlpridge
> -
>
> I recently (last week) purchased this motorcycle. IT runs well with a
> fully charged battery. However after I ride it for awhile and then
> park
> overnight it does not seem to want to run well at all. In fact the
> battery dies and the bike will not even start. I do not leave the
> key
> on or in it overnight. When I jump start it the bike starts up and as
> soon as I disconnect the jumper cables it dies. I do not want to
> start
> blindly replacing stuff. Please help. I do like this bike.
>
> -
>
> batteries discharge themselves. Charge them up and they pass the
> current
> draw test (barely). Let them sit and they are dead in 8 hours. To
> test
> for this, charge the battery and leave it disconnected from the bike
> and
> the charger overnight. Connect it to the bike in the morning. If the
> bike
> starts OK then the battery is probably good.
>
> If something is draining the battery, then you have to track it down.
> It
> could be a bad rectifier/regulator, switch or ????.
>
> pierce
The battery is brand new as of monday, so now I am going to start
testing stuff. I will get a multimeter today to start on it.
--
jlpridge
R. Pierce Butler
While the possibility is quite remote, the new battery could be bad. As
long as you hve the time, you mght as do the test just to be sure.
You could hook up a tail light bulb in between the disconneted battery
terminal and the battery lead. If it glows, then something is drawing
current. Then you can start unplugging things to isolate the fault.
pierce
krusty kritter
jlpridge wrote:
> The battery is brand new as of monday. I am purchasing a multimeter
> today to start testing stuff. I have not received my clymer manual yet
> so I am not sure how to test the rectifier and the stator. If any of
> you have any info on that it would be most helpful.
Charging voltage test:
With a fully charged battery installed, start the engine. The
headlights must be on to load the alternator. Hook a voltmeter across
the battery with the voltmeter on a 15 to 20 volt DC scale. As you rev
up the engine, the
voltage should rise from 12 volts to about 15 to 16 volts. Then the
voltage should drop off sharply. Roll off the throttle and roll it back
on and the voltage should rise and sharply fall each time you do this.
The charging voltage test will prove that the voltage regulating
circuit works.
Open circuit test:
With the alternator plug disconnected from the voltage regulator, hook
your voltmeter across any pair of AC output wires. There should be
three AC output wires. The stator is Y-wound with a floating neutral,
so the AC current goes from A phase to B phase to C phase and you can
read the same AC voltage across any pair of wires. You should read
around 90 to 120 volts AC as you rev the engine up. DO NOT RIDE THE
MOTORCYCLE WITH THE AC OUTPUT PLUG DISCONNECTED. You can fry the
insulation on that expen$ive stator.
Stator continuity test:
Set the ohmmeter on the R X 1 scale. As above, it's a Y-wound stator
with a floating neutral, which means it's not supposed to be grounded
to the engine. Check continuity on R X 1 scale from any wire to any
other wire. It should be around 1 ohm. If you have a digital ohmmeter,
you may not be able to zero out the lead resistance, so the resistance
might be around 2 or 3 ohms. No problem.
Switch to the R X 1000 scale and check all three leads to the engine
block. You shouldn't get any reading.
About the rectifier part of the RR unit:
There are six power diodes inside the rectifier regulator. They change
the AC input to a DC output. AC comes in through three wires, and DC
comes out of two wires. Sometimes the rectifier case has to be grounded
to the sheet metal plate that it's bolted to. If you look at bolt holes
in the plate, check to see if all the paint has been removed around one
of the bolt holes. That's a grounding point.
Also, look at the back of the rectifier regulator. If it has some white
sticky stuff on the back, that's heat sink compound that was used to
transfer heat from the rectifier regulator unit to the sheet metal
plate it's bolted to. Diodes get hot due to internal resistance, so the
heat is radiated to the air through the fins and conducted to the sheet
metal plate.
The diodes are arranged in a three phase full wave configuration. If
you look at the diagram on www.electrosport.com, you'll see the three
AC inputs attach between pairs of arrowhead symbols. Those are the six
power diodes.
The convention is that the input current can only flow in the direction
of the arrowheads.
The diode test:
This works best with an analog ohmmeter, as some digital meters won't
read a diode correctly. With the ohmmeter on the R X 1 scale, check
from each AC pin in the alternator input connector on the voltage
regulator to the DC positive output pin.
You should be able to tell the AC input connector from the DC output
connector because it's probably impossible to hook the AC input
conector to the DC output connector, the connectors should be "keyed"
differently.
To check the first three diodes, touch the black lead's probe to the AC
input pin and the red lead to the DC output pin. If you don't get a
reading, check with the black lead from the AC input pin to the DC
output pin.
You must get the SAME reading from each AC input pin to the DC output
pin. It might be around 15 ohms, but I can't say for sure because the
battery in an ohmmeter biases the diodes and causes different readings
depending on the ohmmeter. If you don't get a reading, that probably
indicates a blown out diode.
Now, reverse the leads and check the other three diodes. Whatever lead
gave you continuity from the AC input pin to the DC output pin is the
wrong lead, so reverse the leads and check from the AC input pin to the
DC negative ground pin. Again, you must get the same low reading from
each AC input pin to the DC negative output.
You should NOT get a reading in both directions, that indicates a
shorted diode. You SHOULD get the SAME reading through all six diodes,
going first from the AC input to the DC output to check the first three
diodes, then reversing the leads and checking from the AC input to the
DC negative side.
jlpridge
R. Pierce Butler Wrote:
> jlpridge jlpridg...@news.motorbikebanter.com wrote in
> news:jlpridg...@news.motorbikebanter.com:
> -
>
>
> The battery is brand new as of monday, so now I am going to start
> testing stuff. I will get a multimeter today to start on it.
>
> -
>
> While the possibility is quite remote, the new battery could be bad.
> As
> long as you hve the time, you mght as do the test just to be sure.
>
> You could hook up a tail light bulb in between the disconneted battery
> terminal and the battery lead. If it glows, then something is drawing
> current. Then you can start unplugging things to isolate the fault.
>
> pierce
It appears that the only time there is a drain on the battery is when
the key is turned on (running or not). I am charging the battery now
and will check in the morning to see if the voltage goes up once I
start it up. If it does not go up but stays the same or drops does this
indicate an alternator problem or could it also be the rectifier?
--
jlpridge
R. Pierce Butler
Did you rev it up to say 3000 RPM to make sure the charging system is not
working?
Assuming the charging system is not working, troubleshooting it is
academic. Krusty would be your best resource for help. I don't have the
service manual or the wiring diagram handy for that bike.
pierce
krusty kritter
jlpridge wrote:
> It appears that the only time there is a drain on the battery is when
> the key is turned on (running or not).
Well, that suggests that none of the six diodes in the three phase full
wave rectifier are leaking to ground, anyway. If you have a diode that
continually leaks 500 milliamps to ground and you have a 14 ampere hour
battery, it will go dead in 28 hours...
> I am charging the battery now
> and will check in the morning to see if the voltage goes up once I
> start it up.
Yes, do the charging circuit test I mentioned in a previous post and
tell us what you get.
> If it does not go up but stays the same or drops does this
> indicate an alternator problem or could it also be the rectifier?
It could be an open or shorted stator winding, a bad connection, or a
blown diode in the rectifier.
The stator is Y-wound. Imagine a Mercedes Benz emblem. A three-pointed
star. Each point of the star represents one phase of the three phase
stator. Imagine that "A" phase is the top point of the star and go
around clockwise. "B" phase is pointing down and to the right. "C"
phase is pointing down and to the left. All three phases meet at
neutral in the center.
The permanent magnet rotor is turned by the engine. As a north pole of
the magnet passes "A" phase, it induces and electrical current into
that phase. But the other side of the magnet has a south pole. It is
inducing a voltage with the opposite polarity into "B" phase.
As each phase generates AC voltage, that voltage has to return to a
different phase winding. In other words, what goes out of "A" phase has
to come back to "B" phase.
Suppose "A" phase is capable of generating 60 volts all by itself.
Remember the phases are connected in the center. "B" phase is helping
"A" phase. The combined output of "A" phase and "B" phase is 60 X 1.73
= 104 volts...
But, what if one of those phase windings has a broken wire, or is
shorted out? Right there, half the power of the alternator is missing,
there's no circuit. You don't even get the 60 volts that each phase can
generate, because the electricity has no way to get out of the stator
and back. You get nada, zilch, zip, squat out of the stator in that
case, for at least half the time with only ONE bad connection!
Even if the stator is OK, if only one of the three AC output pins in
the connector that hooks up to the rectifier regulator is dirty, loose,
or corroded, the alternator output is cut in half.
Then there are the six diodes. If only one of the six diodes is blown
out, the rectifier is toast, some of the AC doesn't get turned into DC,
since it has no way to get back to the stator...
So, if your voltage doesn't rise up when you start the engine and rev
it up you can suspect the stator, the electrical connectors or the
diodes.
If the battery is in good condition, but the voltages goes DOWN when
you rev up the engine, you can suspect a shorted out zener diode in the
voltage regulating part of the rectifier regulator. It's a shunt type
regulator. When voltage reaches a certain level, the zener diode is
supposed to suddenly conduct current to the gate of a solicon control
rectifier and the silicon control rectifier is supposed to ground out
one phase of the stator. It can ground out one phase without blowing
itself up because there is enough resistance in the silicon control
rectifier to burn up excess electricity and turn it into heat.
But, if the zener diode is shorted out, or the silicon control
rectifier is shorted out, one phase of the stator will be grounded out
all the time, and in that case, the stator can only put out half the
power it's supposed to put out.
jlpridge
>
> It appears that the only time there is a drain on the battery is when
> and will check in the morning to see if the voltage goes up once I
> this
> indicate an alternator problem or could it also be the rectifier?
>
>
> Did you rev it up to say 3000 RPM to make sure the charging system is
> not
> working?
>
> Assuming the charging system is not working, troubleshooting it is
> academic. Krusty would be your best resource for help. I don't have
> the
> service manual or the wiring diagram handy for that bike.
>
> pierce
Thanks Pierce. I have charged the battery overnight and will check it
this morning. From all that I ahve read so far I think it is the
Rectifier. I wish I knew how to test it.
--
jlpridge
krusty kritter
jlpridge wrote:
> From all that I ahve read so far I think it is the
> Rectifier. I wish I knew how to test it.
Maybe you're not clear on the concept of the rectifier regulator unit.
There are two parts. The rectifier and the *voltage* regulator. They
are both in the same unit.
You test the voltage regulator operation by doing the "charging voltage
test".
You test the rectifier by doing the "diode test".
Charging voltage test:
With a fully charged battery installed, start the engine. The
headlights must be on to load the alternator. Hook a voltmeter across
the battery with the voltmeter on a 15 to 20 volt DC scale. As you rev
up the engine, the
voltage should rise from 12 volts to about 15 to 16 volts. Then the
voltage should drop off sharply. Roll off the throttle and roll it back
on and the voltage should rise and sharply fall each time you do this.
The charging voltage test will prove that the voltage regulating
circuit works.
The diode test: This works best with an analog ohmmeter, as some
jlpridge
krusty kritter Wrote:
> jlpridge wrote:
> -
> From all that I ahve read so far I think it is the
Thanks for the information. I have checked the voltage of the battery
when started and the voltage goes from 11.45 to 11.85 volts while you
rev the engine. The battery voltage before I put it in the bike is
12.85. It does not take long for it to drop below 12volts. My question
to you before I start attempting to test the diodes in the rectifier is
should I wait until my Clymer manual gets here later this week to look
at the schematics? I am really not sure which wire is what otherwise.
Also, while the bike is warming up it seems like the right bank of
cyclinders are missing until the bike is warmed up. By then you might
be able to ride for 15mins or so before the battery loses enough
voltage for the engine to shut off or run horribly. Going through some
of the Electrosport flow chart for troubleshooting the charging system
points to the problem of a loose ground. I have removed the tank and
checked the ground under there as well as the ground attached to the
engine crankcase. There is also a ground that bolts to the frame near
the battery and it is ok too. The flow chart said to jump a ground from
the neg terminal on the battery directly to the ground wire on the
rectifier and that does not seem to help. Also I have checked the
connections to the rectifier and they are tight and clean.
--
jlpridge
R. Pierce Butler
>
If you can, feel the stator of the alternator after running the bike at
about 3000 rpm for a minute. If the rectifier is bad that stator will
generally be really hot! He careful as I have seen car alternators get so
hot as to cause water drops on the cover to sizzle and dance.
Given that it is trying to charge, I would say that one or more rectifier
diodes are bad. Just keep in mind that a diode is nothing more than an
electrical "check valve". It is supposed to allow current to flow one way
only. If it doesn't it is NFG.
pierce
krusty kritter
> Thanks for the information. I have checked the voltage of the battery
> when started and the voltage goes from 11.45 to 11.85 volts while you
> rev the engine. The battery voltage before I put it in the bike is
> 12.85. It does not take long for it to drop below 12volts.
That suggests a number of unpleasant possibilities. You may have an
open or shorted stator, really bad electrical connections or a shorted
battery cell, or the SCR or zener diode inside the RR unit are shorted
out.
Your alternator does not have a lot of power, maybe only 300 watts. If
you run the open circuit test I mentioned, you'll get around 90 to 120
volts between any pair of AC output wires.
But, even if the open circuit test proves the stator is OK, it still
doesn't have enough power to raise its own voltage much above the
battery voltage if there is a heavy load on the alternator, like a
shorted battery cell, a grounded SCR, or if there are blown diodes in
the rectifier.
> My question
> to you before I start attempting to test the diodes in the rectifier is
> should I wait until my Clymer manual gets here later this week to look
> at the schematics? I am really not sure which wire is what otherwise.
You don't have an owner's manual with a wiring diagram in the back?
If you follow the wire harness from the alternator to the rectifier, it
will go to one connector on the RR unit. That connector will probably
have three wires going into it, so those three wires will have three
pins in the connector. With a 3 phase alternator like your Honda has,
you can't go wrong on which AC input pin you stick your probe to on the
RR...
The other connector probably has two wires going to it. If it has three
wires, one of them is probably a sensor wire. Honda is the only company
I know of that runs a voltage sensing wire off to someplace else in the
instrument panel or headlight.
But, from looking at the DC output connector, you should easily be able
to figure out which is the DC positive output wire. It will be the same
color as the small wire going directly to the battery. It's probably
RED.
The DC negative output wire could be green or black. It's easy to tell
which is the DC output wire. If you probe it with the ohmmeter on the
RX1 scale, it should be grounded to the fame, so you'd get zero ohms
between the connector and the engine.
But all the above is to help you identify the pins on the RR unit
itself. That's what you want to be testing when you do the diode test.
> Also, while the bike is warming up it seems like the right bank of
> cyclinders are missing until the bike is warmed up.
That could be caused by dirty idle jets in the carburetors or you might
have some really bad electrical connectore. If the electrical
connectors in your wiring harness have dirty corroded pins that have
turned green, or even worse, have turned black and the plastic
connectors have begun to melt, the alternator can't charge the battery,
the electricity gets used up heating the connectors.
Every electrical connector will get hot, due to resistance. The more
connections you have, the more charging current is wasted in heating
those extra connections.
The Suzuki engineers did a number of strange things on my GS-1100 that
made it very hard to keep the battery charged.
One problem was that they used the stator and rectifier plugs that came
from the supplier. The stator wouldn't just plug directly into the
rectifier, the plug was wrong. So Suzuki made a short pigtail harness
that attached the stator to the wire harness and the rectifier plugged
into the pigtail harness too. That doubled the number of connections in
the charging circuit that could get hot and melt.
Suzuki also ran one wire from the stator up into the headlight shell to
a connector that had once gone to the headlight ON/OFF switch. Their
idea was that you didn't need all the output from the stator if the
headlight wasn't turned on...
Disconnecting one of the three stator leads in a three phase alternator
such as your Honda and my Suzuki have cuts the stator output in half.
But there hasn't been an ON/OFF switch on the handlebars for years.
Motorcycles sold in the USA must have their headlight on all the time.
So the Suzuki engineers put a jumper wire in the connector inside the
headlight shell so the electricity could travel all the way back to the
rectifier unit. And that little jumper wire got hot and it melted the
connector and kept that phase of the stator from charging my battery.
I was buying a new battery every year until I figured out that I needed
to cut off all the burned up coonnectors and solder the wires directly
together.
Honda owners have also been busy tracking down all the excess
connections in their charging circuits, cutting the connectors off,
stripping the wires, twisting them together and SOLDERING them together
to eliminate all the high resistance connections.
krusty kritter
R. Pierce Butler wrote:
> If you can, feel the stator of the alternator after running the bike at
> about 3000 rpm for a minute. If the rectifier is bad that stator will
> generally be really hot! He careful as I have seen car alternators get so
> hot as to cause water drops on the cover to sizzle and dance.
I'm not sure what you can tell about a charging system from the fact
that the parts get hot, except that it's not a good idea to touch hot
parts.
There is always some heating in the metal cores because of molecular
friction as the electric currents try to align all the iron molecules
to a north-south axis. That's what engineers call "iron loss".
There is always *some* heating in the copper windings, if current is
flowing at all. Electrical engineers call it I-squared R loss, or
"copper loss".
If you are carrying a 300 watt load on the alternator at 12 volts,
Power/Volts = Amps, so 300/12 = 25 and since the internal resistance of
the stator may be as high as 1 ohm, 25 X 25 X 1 = 125 watts. You know
you can't put your hand on a lit 125 watt light bulb, so a stator with
125 watts
I-squared R loss is going to be noticeably hot to the touch...
This particular Honda's alternator does have a cooling fan, but the
internal temperature rise might be as much as 180 degrees Celsius.
Since the windings have nothing for insulation except some special
enamel, the solvents in that enamel will begin to boil out and that
distinctive odor of a hot electrical transformer will be noticed.
And, some of the heating you may have noticed in a car alternator may
be due to at least two other sources. One of those sources is the six
diodes that are built into the case. A diode is a semiconductor with
gawd only knows exactly what low resistance in the forward direction
and (hopefully) quite a bit more in the reverse direction.
Since current flows through the diode, the I-squared R effect makes it
get hot.
If the diode is conducting equally in both directions, it just gets
hot, and doesn't rectify AC into DC. I couldn't tell you what the
forward and reverse resistances are of any particular diode, because
the battery in an analog ohmmeter biases the diode and changes the
reading. If a shop manual specifies a resistance reading for a diode
test, it probably also specifies what model of ohmmeter to use.
The other potential source of heat in a car type excited field
alternator would be the rotor. If the diodes are bad, or the battery is
low, or there's a heavy electrical load the car's voltage regulator
will send full current to the rotor and the I-squared R effect will
cause massive heating of the rotor.
In a motorbike's permanent magnet alternator system, the diodes are in
the rectifier regulator, so the heat sink of the RR gets hot, whether
the diodes are working right or not. And, the voltage regulating
components inside also get hot, the zener diode and the silicon control
rectifier both have internal resistance and the SCR is expected to get
hot, it's a semiconductor and I-squared R effect is busily making it
hotter than hell.
>
> Given that it is trying to charge, I would say that one or more rectifier
> diodes are bad. Just keep in mind that a diode is nothing more than an
> electrical "check valve". It is supposed to allow current to flow one way
> only. If it doesn't it is NFG.
Ah, yes. NFG means "not functionally good" of course...
R. Pierce Butler
@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
>>
>> Given that it is trying to charge, I would say that one or more rectifier
>> diodes are bad. Just keep in mind that a diode is nothing more than an
>> electrical "check valve". It is supposed to allow current to flow one way
>> only. If it doesn't it is NFG.
>
> Ah, yes. NFG means "not functionally good" of course...
>
>
Why yes it does! (;>)
jlpridge
krusty kritter Wrote:
> jlpridge wrote:
> -
> today to start testing stuff. I have not received my clymer manual
> yet
> so I am not sure how to test the rectifier and the stator. If any of
>
> Charging voltage test:
>
> With a fully charged battery installed, start the engine. The
> headlights must be on to load the alternator. Hook a voltmeter across
> the battery with the voltmeter on a 15 to 20 volt DC scale. As you rev
> up the engine, the
> voltage should rise from 12 volts to about 15 to 16 volts. Then the
> voltage should drop off sharply. Roll off the throttle and roll it
> back
> on and the voltage should rise and sharply fall each time you do this.
> The charging voltage test will prove that the voltage regulating
> circuit works.
>
>
> This works best with an analog ohmmeter, as some digital meters won't
> read a diode correctly. With the ohmmeter on the R X 1 scale, check
> from each AC pin in the alternator input connector on the voltage
> regulator to the DC positive output pin.
>
> You should be able to tell the AC input connector from the DC output
> connector because it's probably impossible to hook the AC input
> conector to the DC output connector, the connectors should be "keyed"
> differently.
>
> To check the first three diodes, touch the black lead's probe to the
> AC
> input pin and the red lead to the DC output pin. If you don't get a
> reading, check with the black lead from the AC input pin to the DC
> output pin.
>
> You must get the SAME reading from each AC input pin to the DC output
> battery in an ohmmeter biases the diodes and causes different readings
> depending on the ohmmeter. If you don't get a reading, that probably
> indicates a blown out diode.
>
> Now, reverse the leads and check the other three diodes. Whatever lead
> gave you continuity from the AC input pin to the DC output pin is the
> wrong lead, so reverse the leads and check from the AC input pin to
> the
> DC negative ground pin. Again, you must get the same low reading from
> each AC input pin to the DC negative output.
>
> You should NOT get a reading in both directions, that indicates a
> shorted diode. You SHOULD get the SAME reading through all six diodes,
> going first from the AC input to the DC output to check the first
> three
> diodes, then reversing the leads and checking from the AC input to the
> DC negative side.
Krusty,
I tested the rectifier this morning according to electrex's chart
and the rectifier passed. Then I checked the stator according to your
instructions and the three tests of the three yellow wires revealed 0.0
ohms. According to this the stator is bad right?
--
jlpridge
krusty kritter
jlpridge wrote:
> I tested the rectifier this morning according to electrex's chart
> and the rectifier passed. Then I checked the stator according to your
> instructions and the three tests of the three yellow wires revealed 0.0
> ohms. According to this the stator is bad right?
If you are on the R X 1 scale and you read 0.0 ohms from any yellow
lead to any other yellow lead, that definitely suggests that the stator
windings are shorted out. You should get *some* reading through the
windings, they shouldn't read NO resistance at all.
The specifications for my Yamaha FZR1000's stator is 0.16 to 0.18 ohms.
For an FZR600, the specification is 0.31 to 0.37 ohms. Those are very
small resistances, but at least they show the stator isn't shorted if
you read some low resistance.
I actually measured the resistance on my GS-1100 once, thinking there
might be a problem and got 3 ohms on any output lead to any other
output lead. That might have included test lead resistance, I don't
remember for sure. All the diodes were 15 ohms. My charging problem
turned out to be bad electrical connections. That bad connection inside
the headlight shell really tricked me.
Before I would plunk down $275 for another stator unit, I would wait to
see what the repair manual you ordered says about the resistance. Be
sure you're on the correct setting, R X 1 and zero out the lead
resistance, if that's possible on your multimeter.
jlpridge
R. Pierce Butler Wrote:
> "krusty kritter" kriya...@aol.com wrote in
> news:1127663192.911006.136640
> @g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> -
>
> Given that it is trying to charge, I would say that one or more
> rectifier
> diodes are bad. Just keep in mind that a diode is nothing more than
> an
> electrical "check valve". It is supposed to allow current to flow one
> way
>
> Ah, yes. NFG means "not functionally good" of course...
>
>
> Why yes it does! (;)
When testing the diodes on the rectifier the results show that they are
within specs. However when checking the resistance on the three yellow
wires from the stator the resistance read 0.0 ohms. This is not within
specs according to the electrex flow chart for testing charging
systems.
--
jlpridge
krusty kritter
jlpridge wrote:
> When testing the diodes on the rectifier the results show that they are
> within specs. However when checking the resistance on the three yellow
> wires from the stator the resistance read 0.0 ohms. This is not within
> specs according to the electrex flow chart for testing charging
> systems.
That certainly does sound ominous as regards the health of the stator
windings.
Did you try the open circuit voltage test, running the engine with the
stator disconnected and reading the voltage across the three output
pins.
If you don't get around 70 or 80 volts AC, the atator is defective (or
the
permanent magnet rotor isn't turning).
jlpridge
krusty kritter Wrote:
> jlpridge wrote:
> -
> and the rectifier passed. Then I checked the stator according to your
> instructions and the three tests of the three yellow wires revealed
> 0.0
>
> If you are on the R X 1 scale and you read 0.0 ohms from any yellow
> lead to any other yellow lead, that definitely suggests that the
> stator
> windings are shorted out. You should get *some* reading through the
> windings, they shouldn't read NO resistance at all.
>
> The specifications for my Yamaha FZR1000's stator is 0.16 to 0.18
> ohms.
> For an FZR600, the specification is 0.31 to 0.37 ohms. Those are very
> small resistances, but at least they show the stator isn't shorted if
> you read some low resistance.
>
> I actually measured the resistance on my GS-1100 once, thinking there
> might be a problem and got 3 ohms on any output lead to any other
> output lead. That might have included test lead resistance, I don't
> remember for sure. All the diodes were 15 ohms. My charging problem
> turned out to be bad electrical connections. That bad connection
> inside
> the headlight shell really tricked me.
>
> Before I would plunk down $275 for another stator unit, I would wait
> to
> see what the repair manual you ordered says about the resistance. Be
> sure you're on the correct setting, R X 1 and zero out the lead
> resistance, if that's possible on your multimeter.
Krusty,
I just checked the resistance on the three yellow leads from
the stator again and this time put the setting on the lowest setting.
Once I did this the resistance measured .5 on all three leads. Maybe it
is a bad connection. But where? The symptoms are strange in that the
bike is erratic. Once it warms up it will run good and allow you to rev
the engine above 2000 rpm. Before it is warmed you cannot exceed 2000
rpms. The funny thing is that after riding it for a few minutes it goes
back to the way it runs when cold. I am stumped. I have checked every
ground and they all seem well connected and clean.
--
jlpridge
John Johnson
jlpridge <jlpridg...@news.motorbikebanter.com> wrote:
Some thoughts, not necessarily relevant, and I'm sure that if I'm
off-base with any of them someone here can correct me:
If all (and I do mean _all_) of your electrical connections are in good
shape, I'd suspect the RR of failing under certain conditions, but not
those under test. You could test this hypothesis by running the
motorcycle until it warms up, then testing the RR.
You could also test it by swapping in a known-good RR. This method is
expensive if you don't have a known-good RR lying around, and is not
recommended for that reason. Mind, it doesn't _have_ to be an RR from
the exact same bike, you just have to know more about your electrical
system if you want to choose a different RR.
Finally, it's possible that your meter is not giving accurate readings
of the diodes in the RR. I've heard from a number of folks who had
diodes (mostly on RRs) test just fine on inexpensive meters, but test
bad on higher-quality ones. These people also solved their problems by
replacing the component in question (which is a good indication that the
inexpensive meter was not giving accurate results). You got friends with
access to a nice meter?
fwiw
--
Later,
John
'indiana' is a 'nolnn' and 'hoosier' is a 'solkk'. Indiana doesn't solkk.
krusty kritter
jlpridge wrote:
> krusty kritter Wrote:
> > The specifications for my Yamaha FZR1000's stator is 0.16 to 0.18
> > ohms.
> > For an FZR600, the specification is 0.31 to 0.37 ohms. Those are very
> > small resistances, but at least they show the stator isn't shorted if
> > you read some low resistance.
> I just checked the resistance on the three yellow leads from
> the stator again and this time put the setting on the lowest setting.
> Once I did this the resistance measured .5 on all three leads. Maybe it
> is a bad connection. But where?
Well, if you can test the stator resistance by getting on the pins in
the plug that goes to the rectifier regulator unit, then use your
ohmmeter to check for continuity from the DC plug to the wire that
hooks to the battery. Disconnect it from the battery, of course.
0.5 ohms phase to phase sounds more in line with what I expected. Try
the open circuit voltage test, look for around 80 to 120 volts AC
between all of the yellow wires while the engine is running around 5000
RPM.
If you have that much AC voltage on the open circuit test, the stator
is OK, and the problem is the voltage regulating circuit in the
rectifier regulator. Better that it should be the RR that costs around
$125 than it should be the stator that costs $275...
If you have continuity through the stator wires, but you don't have
open circuit voltage that would indicate that the alternator rotor
wasn't turning. I've seen that happen just twice on different
motorcycles. The rotor wasn't not turning when the crankshaft was
turning because the nut holding it on was loose.
> The symptoms are strange in that the
> bike is erratic. Once it warms up it will run good and allow you to rev
> the engine above 2000 rpm. Before it is warmed you cannot exceed 2000
> rpms. The funny thing is that after riding it for a few minutes it goes
> back to the way it runs when cold. >
That could be electrical or dirty carburetors. Or both...
Is the poor running with a fully charged battery, or with an almost
dead battery? If the voltage from the battery is really low, there
might not be enough voltage at the spark plugs to fire a lean mixture
from the carburetors.
Since the early 1980's, the EPA has required the motorcycle
manufacturers to set the idle mixture very lean, and that does not work
well with a weak ignition system that doesn't put out very much voltage
at the spark plug gap.
I looked at the parts fiches for your Nighthawk at www.partsfish.com
(if you go there and register, you can look at parts diagrams for free)
and I can see the ignition control module and the pulser coils. From
what I can tell, it's just an ordinary transistorized ignition module,
not one of Honda's so-called "CDI" ignitions. Honda's CDI ignitions
have a special high voltage coil in the alternator stator that puts out
around 100 volts so the ignition coils get a sudden high voltage shot
of DC electricity when the pulser coils signal that it's time to fire
the plug.
You can tell if an ignition system is just a transistor ignition system
if you put your voltmeter probe across the positive terminal of the
coil with the ignition key turned on. You'll have 12 volts. If it's a
CDI system, you won't have 12 volts. But you'll get 50 to 100 volts on
the positive terminal of the ignition coil when you crank the engine
with the starter.
It's possible that your idle jets are plugged up from storage and the
idle mixture ports controlled by the idle mixture screws may be dirty
aggravating the cold running with low voltage. I have explained about a
bazillion times how to clean out the idle jets and the idle mixture
passages. If you want to review all of the explanations, you can do a
google search for "idle jet" on rec.motorcycle.tech and you'll find it.
jlpridge
jlpridge Wrote:
> Krusty,
>
> I just checked the resistance on the three yellow leads from
> the stator again and this time put the setting on the lowest setting.
> Once I did this the resistance measured .5 on all three leads. Maybe it
> bike is erratic. Once it warms up it will run good and allow you to rev
> the engine above 2000 rpm. Before it is warmed you cannot exceed 2000
> rpms. The funny thing is that after riding it for a few minutes it goes
> ground and they all seem well connected and clean.
Krusty,
Part B of further testing. I just finished testing that
involves the switched 12V supply input to the rectifier and based on
the results I got the electrex chart says that I have a bad connection
from the battery(+) through the ignition switch to the rectifier. It
just so happens that they say this is the most difficult to find. Any
advice would be most helpful.
--
jlpridge
krusty kritter
jlpridge wrote:
> Part B of further testing. I just finished testing that
> involves the switched 12V supply input to the rectifier and based on
> the results I got the electrex chart says that I have a bad connection
> from the battery(+) through the ignition switch to the rectifier. It
> just so happens that they say this is the most difficult to find. Any
> advice would be most helpful.
The DC output from rectifier ordinarily goes straight to the battery
positive terminal, and another wire will go to the main fuse in the
fuse block. From there, the power will normally go to the ignition
switch, and when you turn the ignition switch on, power will go back to
the other fuses in the fuse box.
If the DC power has to go through the ignition switch before it can get
back to the battery, that means you would have up to 25 amps at 12
volts going though the ignition switch!
I recommend verifying Electrex's assertion involving the ignition
switch by studying the wiring diagram in your owner's manual. If the
battery charging current does in fact go through the ignition switch, I
recommend touching the back side of the switch very carefully after the
engine has been running a few minutes. If the wires on the switch are
getting hotter than hell, the switch may be your problem. I have burned
up two ignition switches on different vehicles before...
jlpridge
krusty kritter Wrote:
> jlpridge wrote:
> -
> involves the switched 12V supply input to the rectifier and based on
> the results I got the electrex chart says that I have a bad
> connection
> from the battery(+) through the ignition switch to the rectifier. It
> just so happens that they say this is the most difficult to find. Any
>
> The DC output from rectifier ordinarily goes straight to the battery
> positive terminal, and another wire will go to the main fuse in the
> fuse block. From there, the power will normally go to the ignition
> switch, and when you turn the ignition switch on, power will go back
> to
> the other fuses in the fuse box.
>
> If the DC power has to go through the ignition switch before it can
> get
> back to the battery, that means you would have up to 25 amps at 12
> volts going though the ignition switch!
>
> I recommend verifying Electrex's assertion involving the ignition
> switch by studying the wiring diagram in your owner's manual. If the
> battery charging current does in fact go through the ignition switch,
> I
> recommend touching the back side of the switch very carefully after
> the
> engine has been running a few minutes. If the wires on the switch are
> getting hotter than hell, the switch may be your problem. I have
> burned
> up two ignition switches on different vehicles before...
Krusty,
The wording is as follows: "Bad connection from the battery (+)
through the ignition switch to the switched +12v supply-input on the
rectifier. Check the whole electrical circuit. This is one of the most
difficult faults to find. Suspect the ignition switch itself, the fuse
box and its connections. The rectifier thinks the battery voltage is
too low while the voltage is correct or too high. Disconnect all
terminals and clean them with contact cleaner." Hopefully this will
clarify some things.
Jeff
--
jlpridge
Mark Olson
> The wording is as follows: "Bad connection from the battery (+)
> through the ignition switch to the switched +12v supply-input on the
> rectifier. Check the whole electrical circuit. This is one of the most
> difficult faults to find. Suspect the ignition switch itself, the fuse
> box and its connections. The rectifier thinks the battery voltage is
> too low while the voltage is correct or too high. Disconnect all
> terminals and clean them with contact cleaner." Hopefully this will
> clarify some things.
This is a voltage regulator with a voltage sense line (a Kelvin
connection for my EE friends)- my GL1200A had this exact problem.
After cleaning all the connectors involved, the voltage drop was
still larger than I liked, so I simply wired the regulator's sense
line directly (thru a fuse) to the battery positive. I was worried
that the regulator might drain current through the sense line when
the bike isn't running but if it does, it's down in the microamps.
Now the battery voltage is forced exactly to what the regulator
wants it to be. A bodge, I admit, but it worked fine for me.
HTH
--
Mark '01 SV650S '99 EX250-F13 '86 GL1200A '81 CM400T
krusty kritter
jlpridge wrote:
> The wording is as follows: "Bad connection from the battery (+)
> through the ignition switch to the switched +12v supply-input on the
> rectifier. Check the whole electrical circuit. This is one of the most
> difficult faults to find. Suspect the ignition switch itself, the fuse
> box and its connections. The rectifier thinks the battery voltage is
> too low while the voltage is correct or too high. Disconnect all
> terminals and clean them with contact cleaner." Hopefully this will
> clarify some things.
Yes, I think I understand what Electrex is trying to say. It's just
that running the battery *charging* wire from the rectifier DC output
through the ignition switch to the battery terminal is such a bad idea
because it requires the ignition switch to carry so much current.
However. There are some Hondas that have six terminals instead of five
terminals coming from the rectifier regulator.
The three AC inputs, a DC positive output and a DC negative output can
also be found on the typical five wire regulator. Charging voltage in a
five wire RR is monitored directly from the positive battery terminal
or from a point between one pair of diodes *inside* the regulator unit
itself in a five wire RR unit.
The sixth wire on some Hondas is a sensor wire. If I understand the
sensor wire business correctly from what some Honda riders have posted,
the sensor wire seems to monitor charging voltage at some remote point
on the battery bus or on the ignition bus. If the sensor circuit has to
add the voltage drop across dirty ignition switch contacts and corroded
electrical connectors, it may sense low charging voltage and may not
tell the silicon control rectifier inside the RR unit to ground out the
stator.
That could result in frying the stator.
It's no wonder Honda riders have been cutting off their electrical
connectors and soldering the wires together to get rid of all the high
resistance connections.
It seems to me that the best place to attach a sensing wire that's
supposed to monitor charging voltage would be directly to the battery!
So. How many wires total go to your rectifier regulator unit, five or
six?
And, have you done that open circuit voltage test I mentioned?
jlpridge
krusty kritter Wrote:
> jlpridge wrote:
> -
> through the ignition switch to the switched +12v supply-input on the
> rectifier. Check the whole electrical circuit. This is one of the
> most
> difficult faults to find. Suspect the ignition switch itself, the
> fuse
> box and its connections. The rectifier thinks the battery voltage is
> too low while the voltage is correct or too high. Disconnect all
> terminals and clean them with contact cleaner." Hopefully this will
Krusty,
I have not run the open circuit voltage test yet because the
bike will not rev to 5000 rpms. I will rechare the battery again and
hopefully the bike will run well enough and long enough to do this
test. As far as the wires to the rectifier, there are three. Red
w/white stripe, green, and black. I really do appreciate your time on
this.
--
jlpridge
krusty kritter
Mark Olson wrote:
> This is a voltage regulator with a voltage sense line (a Kelvin
> connection for my EE friends)- my GL1200A had this exact problem.
> After cleaning all the connectors involved, the voltage drop was
> still larger than I liked, so I simply wired the regulator's sense
> line directly (thru a fuse) to the battery positive. I was worried
> that the regulator might drain current through the sense line when
> the bike isn't running but if it does, it's down in the microamps.
> Now the battery voltage is forced exactly to what the regulator
> wants it to be. A bodge, I admit, but it worked fine for me.
It seems that all Honda is doing by using a remote sensing wire is
saving about 1/100th of an amp current drain...
I learned a great deal about voltage regulation and electronic ignition
systems from a set of motorcycle repair manuals I found in the local
library back in the 1970's. The typical owner's manual will have wiring
diagrams showing all the wires going to mysterious empty boxes or
circles.
But this set of manuals showed diagrams and schematics and even gave
resistance values for components, so I copied those diagrams for future
reference as at least typical wiring and resistance values.
The current reducing resistors that tailor the current going to the
zener diode that triggers the thyristor in a shunt type voltage
regulator might total around 1100 ohms, as I recall.
If current flows through those resistors all the time, I calculate that
you'd have 0.01 amperes flowing through them, the battery would take
1400 hours, or 58 days to discharge down to 12 volts...
krusty kritter
jlpridge wrote:
> I have not run the open circuit voltage test yet because the
> bike will not rev to 5000 rpms. I will rechare the battery again and
> hopefully the bike will run well enough and long enough to do this
> test. As far as the wires to the rectifier, there are three. Red
> w/white stripe, green, and black. I really do appreciate your time on
> this.
So, I suppose that there are three yellow wires from the stator going
to the RR, and red w/white stripe, green, and black, for a total of six
wires.
Honda's color coding may be red/white for the DC power output, green
for ground, and the black wire may be the sensing wires. Check it out
with your owner's manual wiring diagram and keep on tracing it out.
Mark Olson
>
> Mark Olson wrote:
>
>> This is a voltage regulator with a voltage sense line (a Kelvin
>> connection for my EE friends)- my GL1200A had this exact problem.
>> After cleaning all the connectors involved, the voltage drop was
>> still larger than I liked, so I simply wired the regulator's sense
>> line directly (thru a fuse) to the battery positive. I was worried
>> that the regulator might drain current through the sense line when
>> the bike isn't running but if it does, it's down in the microamps.
>> Now the battery voltage is forced exactly to what the regulator
>> wants it to be. A bodge, I admit, but it worked fine for me.
>
> It seems that all Honda is doing by using a remote sensing wire is
> saving about 1/100th of an amp current drain...
No- the worry about long-term current drain due to me moving the remote
sense wire so that it isn't switched anymore, is a side issue.
The remote sensing wire allows the regulator to monitor a particular
node in the charging circuit and adjust the regulator's output so that
the monitored node is forced to the desired voltage. In this case,
the positive battery terminal _should_ have been the node of interest,
but Honda in their infinite wisdom decided to force the +12V bus on
the switched side of the ignition switch to a voltage appropriate for
battery charging.
This wouldn't be a problem in a brand new bike with nice clean and springy
BeCu connectors, but on an old bike with dirty and tired connectors there
is significant voltage drop through the ignition switch and all the other
connectors (and on a Gold Wing there are many) between the output of the
regulator and the positive battery lead. So the switched side of the
ignition switch is at a voltage appropriate for charging the battery,
lets say ~14.5V, yet the battery itself is seeing somewhere between 0.5
and 1V _MORE_ than that, so the battery eventually gets cooked.
You would actually be better off without the sense lead in this case,
since the voltage drop on the big wires between the regulator output and
the positive battery lead is far less than the voltage drop through the
less robust wiring routed through the ignition switch.
jlpridge
Mark Olson Wrote:
> krusty kritter kriya...@aol.com wrote:-
>
> Mark Olson wrote:
> -
> This is a voltage regulator with a voltage sense line (a Kelvin
> connection for my EE friends)- my GL1200A had this exact problem.
> After cleaning all the connectors involved, the voltage drop was
> still larger than I liked, so I simply wired the regulator's sense
> line directly (thru a fuse) to the battery positive. I was worried
> that the regulator might drain current through the sense line when
> the bike isn't running but if it does, it's down in the microamps.
> Now the battery voltage is forced exactly to what the regulator
>
> It seems that all Honda is doing by using a remote sensing wire is
Mark,
My Clymer manual should be here tomorrow. Once I look at the
section referring to the rectifier I will try your fix. In the
meantime, one of my electrician friends at work asked if I had checked
the coils yet. He said that it is possible if the resistance is too
high on them they could be failing which would also impede the charging
capacity of the bike's charging system. Have you ever heard anything
like this before. It sure sound relevant due to how poorly the bike
runs until it runs for a minute. It does not seem that it is an issue
of warming up because even after it begins to run well it can go back
at any moment to running poorly.
--
jlpridge
Mark Olson
> My Clymer manual should be here tomorrow. Once I look at the
> section referring to the rectifier I will try your fix. In the
> meantime, one of my electrician friends at work asked if I had checked
> the coils yet. He said that it is possible if the resistance is too
> high on them they could be failing which would also impede the charging
> capacity of the bike's charging system. Have you ever heard anything
> like this before. It sure sound relevant due to how poorly the bike
> runs until it runs for a minute. It does not seem that it is an issue
> of warming up because even after it begins to run well it can go back
> at any moment to running poorly.
I assume when you are talking about 'the coils' you mean the alternator
stator, not the ignition coils, just to be clear. No one refers to the
coils of wire in an alternator as 'the coils', they call them 'stator
windings' or simply 'the stator'.
It's possible your stator windings are shorted or open, but most people
don't know how critical fractions of an Ohm are when diagnosing them,
and how to correctly perform such low-resistance measurements. The
cheapie digital meters you buy for $10 may have 1-Ohm resolution on their
lowest resistance scale which makes them useless for checking for shorts.
Have you done an open circuit AC voltage check of the three wires coming
out of the stator? That usually tells you whether your charging system has
the potential (no pun intended) of working. If that checks out, then I'd
proceed to testing the rectifier diodes in the reg/rect and the rectifier
itself as a component, if possible.
The fault finding chart at
http://www.electrosport.com/electrosport_fault_finding.html
(formerly electrexusa.com)
is really very good, and is worth following exactly as directed, even if
you have a service manual.
krusty kritter
jlpridge wrote:
> My Clymer manual should be here tomorrow. Once I look at the
> section referring to the rectifier I will try your fix.
I don't know if you understand the nature of Mark's solution to the
remote sensing wire problem or not. If the remote sensing wire is open
or has high resistance, the voltage regulating circuit in the rectifier
regulator won't work and the voltage will get too high.
That's which Mark moved his wire, he wanted to avoid burning up his
stator from HIGH voltage. Your problem so far seems to be LOW voltage.
Your stator could already be partially shorted out, but you need to do
the open circuit voltage test to see if it's putting out AC voltage at
5000 to 7000 RPM.
The rectifier regulator is a two part device which has the six diodes
that change AC from the stator into DC that the battery can use.
The voltage regulating circuit is a silicon control rectifier that
grounds out one phase of the stator when the voltage gets too high. The
silicon control rectifier is sometimes also called a "thyristor".
When the SCR grounds one phase of the stator, that cuts the AC outout
in half momentarily. The silicon control rectifier has enough built-in
resistance, when it conducts electricity to ground it just gets hot
without hurting itself.
The remote sensing wire simply sends voltage to a component called a
zener diode in the voltage regulating circuit of the rectifier
regulator. A zener diode is a kind of diode that doesn't conduct
electricity until the voltage reaches the desired level. Then the zener
diode conducts electicity to the gate of the silicon control rectifier,
telling it to
shunt the high voltage (around 15 to 16 volts) to ground.
That's why the rectifier regulator is also called a "shunt type
regulator".
It just wastes excess voltage into the frame of the motorbike.
> meantime, one of my electrician friends at work asked if I had checked
> the coils yet. He said that it is possible if the resistance is too
> high on them they could be failing which would also impede the charging
> capacity of the bike's charging system. Have you ever heard anything
> like this before. It sure sound relevant due to how poorly the bike
> runs until it runs for a minute. It does not seem that it is an issue
> of warming up because even after it begins to run well it can go back
> at any moment to running poorly.
You might have loose connectors on the ignition control module or on
the ignition coils themselves. If you want to see if you have enough
voltage to produce adequate sparks, install a fully charged battery,
remove the spark plugs and reinstall the plugs in the plastic
connectors on the end of the ignition wires and crank the engine over
while holding a spark plug about 1/4 of an inch away from the cylinder
head. If you get a bright blue spark that jumps 1/4 of an inch, you
have enough spark to rev up the engine to do your open circuit test.
If you get a weak white spark that won't jump 1/4 of an inch, or it's
orange or red, that's really weak and you'll need to figure out what
the problem is. An electronic ignition system either works or it
doesn't, the most likely problem for weak spark is dirty or loose
connectors.
If you don't have a weak spark, the most probable reason for bad
running is dirty idle mixture jets. I've described what to do about
that in this newsgroup about a bazillion times, so you can google that
information up.
jlpridge
krusty kritter Wrote:
> jlpridge wrote:
> -
> meantime, one of my electrician friends at work asked if I had
> checked
> the coils yet. He said that it is possible if the resistance is too
> high on them they could be failing which would also impede the
> charging
> capacity of the bike's charging system. Have you ever heard anything
> like this before. It sure sound relevant due to how poorly the bike
> runs until it runs for a minute. It does not seem that it is an issue
> of warming up because even after it begins to run well it can go back
>
> You might have loose connectors on the ignition control module or on
> the ignition coils themselves. If you want to see if you have enough
> voltage to produce adequate sparks, install a fully charged battery,
> remove the spark plugs and reinstall the plugs in the plastic
> connectors on the end of the ignition wires and crank the engine over
> while holding a spark plug about 1/4 of an inch away from the cylinder
> head. If you get a bright blue spark that jumps 1/4 of an inch, you
> have enough spark to rev up the engine to do your open circuit test.
>
> If you get a weak white spark that won't jump 1/4 of an inch, or it's
> orange or red, that's really weak and you'll need to figure out what
> the problem is. An electronic ignition system either works or it
> doesn't, the most likely problem for weak spark is dirty or loose
> connectors.
>
> If you don't have a weak spark, the most probable reason for bad
> running is dirty idle mixture jets. I've described what to do about
> that in this newsgroup about a bazillion times, so you can google that
> information up.
Krusty,
Well I just did the open circuit test and the reading
never went over 1.0 volts with the multimeter set on 200vac. Also I
just received the Clymer manual and it said to test the resistance
between the white wire and black wire from the stator and upon testing
them I got a reading of 1 ohm when the specs are between .4 and .6
ohms. Both results point to a bad stator but it still does not address
why the bike is moody. The smell of gas is overwhelming when the bike is
running leading me to believe it is running rich. But that does not
explain why all of the sudden it go from running ok to missing and
backfiring all of the sudden. It seems that letting it sit overnight
ensures that it will run well for a little while the next day and then
go back missing and backfiring.
--
jlpridge
krusty kritter
jlpridge wrote:
> Well I just did the open circuit test and the reading
> never went over 1.0 volts with the multimeter set on 200vac. Also I
> just received the Clymer manual and it said to test the resistance
> between the white wire and black wire from the stator and upon testing
> them I got a reading of 1 ohm when the specs are between .4 and .6
> ohms. Both results point to a bad stator but it still does not address
> why the bike is moody. The smell of gas is overwhelming when the bike is
> running leading me to believe it is running rich. But that does not
> explain why all of the sudden it go from running ok to missing and
> backfiring all of the sudden. It seems that letting it sit overnight
> ensures that it will run well for a little while the next day and then
> go back missing and backfiring.
If your spark is really weak, it can't ignite the fuel air mixture
properly and it will kick out a lot of unburned hydrocarbons. Also, if
the motorbike has sat for a few months without being ridden, you'll
smell some horrible odors coming out the exhaust. Compounds called
aldehydes break out of the gasoline molecules and and they really
stink.
Now, I'm wondering about the black wire and the white wire you
mentioned.
What is their function? I thought you said that the stator output wires
were yellow, that you also had a red/white wire, a green wire and a
black wire coming from the regulator.
Some Hondas had excited field alternators. They had a white wire and a
black wire going to carbon brushes on the alternator. The brushes
conduct current through the slip rings on the rotor and it becomes a
rotating electromagnet, inducing current into the stator windings.
Does your alternator have brushes? There are no brushes shown on the
parts fiche for the 1983 CB550 Nighthawk at www.partfish.com.
jlpridge
krusty kritter Wrote:
> jlpridge wrote:
> -
> never went over 1.0 volts with the multimeter set on 200vac. Also I
> just received the Clymer manual and it said to test the resistance
> between the white wire and black wire from the stator and upon
> testing
> them I got a reading of 1 ohm when the specs are between .4 and .6
> ohms. Both results point to a bad stator but it still does not
> address
> why the bike is moody. The smell of gas is overwhelming when the bike
> is
> running leading me to believe it is running rich. But that does not
> explain why all of the sudden it go from running ok to missing and
> backfiring all of the sudden. It seems that letting it sit overnight
> ensures that it will run well for a little while the next day and
> then
>
> If your spark is really weak, it can't ignite the fuel air mixture
> properly and it will kick out a lot of unburned hydrocarbons. Also, if
> the motorbike has sat for a few months without being ridden, you'll
> smell some horrible odors coming out the exhaust. Compounds called
> aldehydes break out of the gasoline molecules and and they really
> stink.
>
> Now, I'm wondering about the black wire and the white wire you
> mentioned.
> What is their function? I thought you said that the stator output
> wires
> were yellow, that you also had a red/white wire, a green wire and a
> black wire coming from the regulator.
>
> Some Hondas had excited field alternators. They had a white wire and a
> black wire going to carbon brushes on the alternator. The brushes
> conduct current through the slip rings on the rotor and it becomes a
> rotating electromagnet, inducing current into the stator windings.
>
> Does your alternator have brushes? There are no brushes shown on the
> parts fiche for the 1983 CB550 Nighthawk at www.partfish.com.
Krusty,
Well as the old saying goes "more will be revealed." I believe
the alternator is brushless. I have conducted yet another test found in
the clymer manual. It is the test of the ignition pulse generator. The
test has you check the resistance of both pickups. The correct
resistance is 330 ohms. One pickup tested fine. The other had no
reading at all. If my suspicions are right I will check this again this
evening after letting the bike sit all day and the one that tested bad
will test good. I believe this will be the case because the bike runs
fine when it has sat for five or six hours then as it heats up it runs
like crap. It would really be nice if I could talk with you onthe
phone. I would understand if that is not convienient for you. You have
been a great help and I appreciate your help very much. If we could
talk you can email me your number at jlpr...@excite.com
--
jlpridge
jlpridge
jlpridge Wrote:
> Krusty,
>
> Well as the old saying goes "more will be revealed." I believe
> the alternator is brushless. I have conducted yet another test found in
> the clymer manual. It is the test of the ignition pulse generator. The
> test has you check the resistance of both pickups. The correct
> resistance is 330 ohms. One pickup tested fine. The other had no
> reading at all. If my suspicions are right I will check this again this
> evening after letting the bike sit all day and the one that tested bad
> will test good. I believe this will be the case because the bike runs
> fine when it has sat for five or six hours then as it heats up it runs
> like crap. It would really be nice if I could talk with you onthe
> phone. I would understand if that is not convienient for you. You have
> been a great help and I appreciate your help very much. If we could
> talk you can email me your number at jlpr...@excite.com
Krusty,
My suspicions are confirmed. I waited a couple of hours and
went out and pulled the cover to inspect the pulse generator. There was
some corrosion around where that bad pickup bolted in. I cleaned that
area up good and tested the resistance and it was in specs. I figured
problem solved but found out while riding that as soon as the bike
heated up good the problem (running rough and missing) returned. Sure
enough upon testing the resistance on the two pickups the same one was
bad. Any thoughts you have on this are greatly appreciated.
Jeff
--
jlpridge
Mark Olson
> My suspicions are confirmed. I waited a couple of hours and
> went out and pulled the cover to inspect the pulse generator. There was
> some corrosion around where that bad pickup bolted in. I cleaned that
> area up good and tested the resistance and it was in specs. I figured
> problem solved but found out while riding that as soon as the bike
> heated up good the problem (running rough and missing) returned. Sure
> enough upon testing the resistance on the two pickups the same one was
> bad. Any thoughts you have on this are greatly appreciated.
The corrosion is irrelevant- the pickup doesn't electrically connect
to the engine where it is mounted.
The pickup is bad, replace it.
krusty kritter
jlpridge wrote:
>
> My suspicions are confirmed. I waited a couple of hours and
> went out and pulled the cover to inspect the pulse generator. There was
> some corrosion around where that bad pickup bolted in. I cleaned that
> area up good and tested the resistance and it was in specs. I figured
> problem solved but found out while riding that as soon as the bike
> heated up good the problem (running rough and missing) returned. Sure
> enough upon testing the resistance on the two pickups the same one was
> bad. Any thoughts you have on this are greatly appreciated.
Well, that explains mysterious intermittent rough running.
The pulser coils wouldn't be grounded to the frame, both wires would go
to the ignition control module. As the rotor on the right hand end of
the crankshaft passes each pulser coil, a short pulse goes to the
ignition unit. It's only about 2 volts, but that's enough to trigger
TWO spark plugs to fire. The engine fires TWO cylinders each time a
pulser coil makes a spark, but only one of the two sparks is useful,
the spark that's occuring while the exhaust valve is open is called a
"waste" spark.
The pairs of cylinders fired are 1 and 4, then 3 and 2, since the
pistons are on opposite strokes 180 degrees apart. You should be able
to tell which cylinders aren't firing by looking at the spark plugs. A
cylinder that's not firing will have black sooty spark plugs.
If one pulser coil is opening up when it gets hot, you can check to see
if
there's a problem in the connectors and wiring, you can even pull on
wires to see if the insulation stretches out. That indicates a broken
wire inside the insulation. If you can't find anything external, the
open circuit is inside the pulser coil itself.
If you can get the pulser coil problem fixed and the engine runs
smoothly so it will rev up to 5000 to 7000 RPM you can do the open
circuit voltage test again. The 1 volt that you got wasn't impressive.
I suggest that when you get the engine to run on all four cylinders,
remove the alternator cover so you can see the cooling fan. If it
doesn't turn when the engine is running, then the alternator cannot
generate AC current.
The CB-650 Nighthawks had an excited field alternator with brushes.
There was no cooling fan, you would spot that right away, and you'd be
able to see the brushes. The voltage regulator sends battery voltage
through the brushes into the rotor, making an electromagnetic field.
When the rotor turns, that's what makes the voltage.
A permanent magnet alternator, OTOH, has very strong permanent magnets
that induce the electricity in the stator. But the rotor absolutely
must *turn* when the engine is running to generate electricity!
jlpridge
krusty kritter Wrote:
> jlpridge wrote:-
>
> went out and pulled the cover to inspect the pulse generator. There
> was
> some corrosion around where that bad pickup bolted in. I cleaned that
> area up good and tested the resistance and it was in specs. I figured
> problem solved but found out while riding that as soon as the bike
> heated up good the problem (running rough and missing) returned. Sure
> enough upon testing the resistance on the two pickups the same one
> was
Krusty,
I am going to purchase a stator for this bike. I have
reached this decision because of the test results from the Clymer
manual. There are five leads coming from the stator, 3 yellow, one
white and one black. The resistance tests for the three yellow leads
test within specs. However the test of the resistance between the white
and the black lead failed. The result in specs would be 4-6 ohms whereas
mine measures 1 ohm. And of course it failed the open circuit test you
had me do. Do you have any other advice before I replace this stator. I
have found a company who rebuilds them for less than $100 including
shipping with a 1 year warranty.
Jeff
--
jlpridge
R. Pierce Butler
news:jlpridg...@news.motorbikebanter.com:
Jeff,
Was it determined that this is an excitable field alternator with brushes?
pierce
krusty kritter
jlpridge wrote:
> I am going to purchase a stator for this bike. I have
> reached this decision because of the test results from the Clymer
> manual. There are five leads coming from the stator, 3 yellow, one
> white and one black. The resistance tests for the three yellow leads
> test within specs. However the test of the resistance between the white
> and the black lead failed. The result in specs would be 4-6 ohms whereas
> mine measures 1 ohm. And of course it failed the open circuit test you
> had me do. Do you have any other advice before I replace this stator. I
> have found a company who rebuilds them for less than $100 including
> shipping with a 1 year warranty.
Well, $100 for a stator sounds like a good deal, if you really *need*
the stator. Have you pulled off the alternator cover to see if the
rotor is actually *turning* when the engine is running? It's possible
that the rotor isn't turning, or that what you actually have is an
excited field alternator with brushes.
If you take off that alternator cover, you'll either see a cooling fan
(like in the parts fiche at www.partsfish.com) or you'll see the
rigging for brushes.
An excited field alternator won't pass the charging voltage test or the
open circuit test if it's not getting DC voltage from the battery,
through the brushes, to the rotor.
Another guy had a CB650 and he was having problems and he also
mentioned black and white wires going to his alternator. Those were the
wires from the voltage regulator to the brushes.
I'm curious as to what the black and white wires you mention are for.
The only other thing I can think of is that your ignition system is not
just a transistor ignition but is actually Honda's so-called "CDI"
ignition system.
If that's what it has, the black and white wires could be coming from a
winding in the stator that puts out 50 to 100 volts to provide high
voltage to the CDI module.
If your motorbike has a CDI ignition system, you wouldn't get 12 volts
on the ignition coil positive terminals when you turn the ignition key
on, you'd get 50 or 100 volts when the engine was running and less when
you were cranking the engine with the starter.
jlpridge
krusty kritter Wrote:
> jlpridge wrote:
> -
> reached this decision because of the test results from the Clymer
> manual. There are five leads coming from the stator, 3 yellow, one
> white and one black. The resistance tests for the three yellow leads
> test within specs. However the test of the resistance between the
> white
> and the black lead failed. The result in specs would be 4-6 ohms
> whereas
> mine measures 1 ohm. And of course it failed the open circuit test
> you
> had me do. Do you have any other advice before I replace this stator.
> I
> have found a company who rebuilds them for less than $100 including
Krusty,
Your caution is why I asked before making the decision on this
one. Yes my alternator has a fan and yes the bike does have a cdi box
under the seat. The clymer manual says there is not test for that box.
It is either good or bad. Mine is good because the bike fires properly
when the pickup is working correctly. The rotor does turn as I
suspected. The test of that black wire and white wire is straight out
of the clymer manual and it fails the resistance test clearly on a
cheap multimeter and an expensive one. What I am not sure of is what
the significance of the resistance between these two leads that makes
the stator bad.
Jeff
--
jlpridge
Mark Olson
If you check out
http://electrosport.com/electrosport_electrical_honda.html
you will see the 1983 Nighthawk CB550SC uses the same regulator as
the 80-82 CB900C, among a number of other Honda models.
Having owned an 81 CB900C, I know for a fact that it has an excited
field alternator, using a spinning field coil (rotor) with brushes and
a commutator.
But- the Honda parts fiche does not show any brushes or a commutator for
the field/rotor coil, it just shows a stator with a single connector,
which at first glance, would tend to indicate it's a permanent magnet
style alternator. However, there is another possibility- it could be an
excited field type using a stationary field coil and spinning magnetic
reluctors, similar to the system used on my '77 KZ650B1. I think this
is the case. The two-piece rotor is a clue.
Unfortunately the stator / field coil combination is not sourced by
Electrosport, so either new Honda OEM or a used unit from ebay or a
breakers yard will be the most likely sources.
krusty kritter
jlpridge wrote:
> Your caution is why I asked before making the decision on this
> one.
My concern is to help you avoid spending money needlessly on parts that
may
not need replacement. The charging system, consisting of alternator,
rectifier regulator, and battery is the system most often misunderstood
and all the parts very often get replaced one at a time until the
problem is found and the owner gets stuck with perfectly good extra
parts.
> Yes my alternator has a fan and yes the bike does have a cdi box
> under the seat. The clymer manual says there is not test for that box.
> It is either good or bad. Mine is good because the bike fires properly
> when the pickup is working correctly. The rotor does turn as I
> suspected.
Good. Now that we are clear on those points, the only other possible
reasons why the stator wouldn't put out the required open circuit
voltage are that the magnets on the rotor have lost their permanent
magnetism and the distinctly odd ball possibility that the stator or
rotor is the wrong one for the motorcycle. (1)
It's certain easy enough to find out if the permanent magnet rotor is
still magnetized, just hold a piece of iron next to it and it will grab
the iron and hold it.
Permanent magnets can lose their magnetism from being heated, being
struck hard blows with a hammer, or from being exposed to an
electromagnetic field.
> The test of that black wire and white wire is straight out
> of the clymer manual and it fails the resistance test clearly on a
> cheap multimeter and an expensive one. What I am not sure of is what
> the significance of the resistance between these two leads that makes
> the stator bad.
> > However the test of the resistance between the white
> > and the black lead failed. The result in specs would be 4-6 ohms
> > whereas mine measures 1 ohm.
The indication of low resistance is that some of the windings of the
stator's CDI charging coils are shorted out.
When you run the open circuit voltage test on the yellow wires, are the
black and white wires also disconnected? If the black and white wires
are disconnected and the engine runs, that indicates to me that the CDI
system will start the engine on battery voltage too.
The indication from the 1 volt you got from the open circuit test (if
you checked from yellow to yellow to yellow with the engine running at
around 5000 RPM) is that the stator battery charging coils are also
shorted out.
The decision to spend $100 on having your stator rewound, is, of course
entirely up to you, and I hope that my explanations have helped you
make the correct decision.
(1)We read about the strange case a few years ago where the owner of a
Suzuki GS750 had mismatched the rotor from one motorbike to the stator
from another motorbike and the number of magnetic poles was incorrect
so the required north and south magnetic poles were not aligned with
the stator poles at the correct time and there was no voltage output.
As I recall, that fellow had one 12-pole part and one 18-pole part, and
that's why the north poles and south poles were never aligned to
produce voltage in the stator. That one was a real headscratcher.