Is there a flat rate manual for Japanese motorcycle repairs?
Biker Dude
How many manhours of labor should it take to repair various items on
Japanese motorcycles?
I have several people who have asked me to rebuild carbs on their
bikes. I need to have an idea of how long this will take.
I have found an online source for Harleys, I do believe there's one
for the Japanese bikes.
Please help me if you can, thanks in advance.
Biker Dude
TOG@Toil
manufacturers have their own rates and times, which they allow for
warranty repairs and suchlike, but there are often dodges that
mechanics evolve themselves in order to shorten the time (valve-shim-
under-bucket changes and starter clutch replacement on some models
spring to mind).
As for rebuilding carbs on bikes; what carbs? What bikes? Slide carbs?
CV carbs? Vees, inline fours, or what?
The variables are immense.
In addition, you can be sure it will take longer on older bikes than
it does on newer ones, because fasteners will be corroded and stuck,
or damaged where some donkey has had a go at it first (this holds good
for *all* work), and once you get into the carbs a pound to a penny
you'll find that the bike hasn't been used for a decade and all the
fuel has turned to varnsh, meaning it'll have to be ultrasonically
cleaned as well.
So how long will it take? "As long as it takes".
Hank
pages with the parts. It was what they paid for warranty work, about half
what it actually took. We figured they let a little japanese guy do twenty
practice runs with every power tool he could think of, fed him some uppers,
then timed him.
I used to double it for repair estimates and usually it was pretty close
then.
As for you doing "carb rebuilds" on other people's bikes with the amount of
knowledge/experience evident from your many posts; NOT
recommended...........
AND any FRT assumes a trained tech with proper tools, so , totally
irrelevant.
"Biker Dude" <jacobs...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0a93c334-4f56-4a9c...@j14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
CS
quite hard to find.
If you need a baseline price to work with, simply call the local dealers and
ask them what they charge, then ask them what the rebuild kit costs by
itself. That should give you a good idea of what to charge.
Tip: If you want to save time and drama, tell them the carbs are OFF the
running bike already. They're less likely to expect you to "Bring it in
and, after we waste a few hours/days/years of your life, we'll tell you a
big fat lie so we can rape all your holes after your bike is scattered
across our shop."
(I haven't had this issue at the local Yamaha shop, but I've seen it at most
auto shops)
By the way, beware of helping friends with their junk. Been there. After
the job, it seems like every future problem, no matter how unrelated, was
somehow caused by my work.
I replaced a hard drive on a laptop, and got a call months later that I
somehow placed a virus on there they just found. Of course, it had nothing
to do with their visit to www.freedonkeywithmidgetsporn.us. heh
CS
"Biker Dude" <jacobs...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0a93c334-4f56-4a9c...@j14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>
frijoli
> On 26 Nov, 07:17, Biker Dude <jacobsenpa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> How many manhours of labor should it take to repair various items on
>> Japanese motorcycles?
>>
>> I have found an online source for Harleys, I do believe there's one
>> for the Japanese bikes.
>>
>>
> I'd be really surprised if anything like that exists.
Well you should be surprised then. They actually do exist.
Almost all manufacturers in this context use them for their
authorized repair shops. I have seen them for Honda and
Yamaha, however they are all electronic these days.
The flat rate only is a guideline, and typically is longer
than an experienced mechanic will take, BUT he gets paid by
the book, not how long it takes. Again, for authorized
repair centers.
I have know idea how to get a copy.
TOG@Toil
> TOG@Toil wrote:
> > On 26 Nov, 07:17, Biker Dude <jacobsenpa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> How many manhours of labor should it take to repair various items on
> >> Japanese motorcycles?
>
> >> I have found an online source for Harleys, I do believe there's one
> >> for the Japanese bikes.
>
> > I'd be really surprised if anything like that exists.
>
> Well you should be surprised then. They actually do exist.
Yes, I know that. I said that. What I meant was I really doubt an
online version, covering all Japanese bikes, exists.
> Almost all manufacturers in this context use them for their
> authorized repair shops.
Yes, again, that's what I said.
I have seen them for Honda and
> Yamaha, however they are all electronic these days.
Didn't know that, mind.
>
> The flat rate only is a guideline, and typically is longer
> than an experienced mechanic will take, BUT he gets paid by
> the book, not how long it takes. Again, for authorized
> repair centers.
Yes, I know. And in some cases, mechanics develop shortcuts.
>
> I have no idea how to get a copy.
Nor I :-(
Biker Dude
> I've seen them for auto mechanics, and if they exist for bikes, they'll be
> quite hard to find.
That's what I thought.
> If you need a baseline price to work with, simply call the local dealers and
> ask them what they charge, then ask them what the rebuild kit costs by
> itself. That should give you a good idea of what to charge.
Will do.
May little corner of the world is filled with UJM (Universal Japanese
Motorcycles) with clogged carbs. The sellers of such bikes are asking
$600 - $800 and they mention that "it just needs a carb cleaning".
If it is an inline four then carb kits are about $25 each on fleabay
and the time to remove them from the bike, dissassemble, clean,
reassemble, reinstall, adjust, tune, etc must be about 4 hours or
more.
Shop rates around here are about $75 per hour, times four is $300 plus
$100 for parts so a $400 repair bill sounds about right. I could then
approach the seller of the $600 bike and explain that it needs $400
worth of work and I should be able to do that without offending him.
If there is a stripped or corroded screw and/or there is also a need
for a petcock overhaul then I could calculate repair costs at about
$600. That's a big discount for a $600 bike and I would be confident
in bidding it.
What do you think?
"Ta ta for now" - Tigger - AA Milne
Biker Dude
TOG@Toil
<snip>
>
> What do you think?
>
I think you're living in a dream world. Here's why:
Like I thought, you're talking about old Jap bikes. I spend half my
life messing around with these things, in what I laughingly call
"work".
A pound to a penny that these bikes will, like I said up there
somewhere, have their own fair share of stripped and corroded
fasteners. Have you ever tried getting a carb bank off an old 1970s/
80s Jap four? Worse still, ever tried putting the carb bank back on?
With old hardened carb stubs, inlet rubbers to the airbox which are
perished and suddenly split, etc etc? And you think you can get a set
of carbs off, completely stripped, cleaned properly, and replaced in
just four hours? If you're very, very lucky, maybe. I'd double that
time. If the carbs are really gunged up and need ultrasonic cleaning,
you'll need to factor that in as well.
You're talking about maybe having to spend half an hour with degreaser
and a jetwash before you can even see the fasteners you want to undo,
sometimes, and then when you have exposed them, they'll all have
damaged heads.
And as CS wisely says, the people you're working for will be back.
Because even if you do manage to restore their carbs to pristine
health, their old clunkers still won't work (air filter, plugs,
battery, whatever) and it'll all be your fault because "it was all OK
before".
Mark Olson
> May little corner of the world is filled with UJM (Universal Japanese
> Motorcycles) with clogged carbs. The sellers of such bikes are asking
> $600 - $800 and they mention that "it just needs a carb cleaning".
>
> If it is an inline four then carb kits are about $25 each on fleabay
> and the time to remove them from the bike, dissassemble, clean,
> reassemble, reinstall, adjust, tune, etc must be about 4 hours or
> more.
>
> Shop rates around here are about $75 per hour, times four is $300 plus
> $100 for parts so a $400 repair bill sounds about right. I could then
> approach the seller of the $600 bike and explain that it needs $400
> worth of work and I should be able to do that without offending him.
>
> If there is a stripped or corroded screw and/or there is also a need
> for a petcock overhaul then I could calculate repair costs at about
> $600. That's a big discount for a $600 bike and I would be confident
> in bidding it.
You know, or should know, what the bike is worth to you. You also know
approximately how much a dealer would charge to fix such a bike.
However, you aren't going to pay a dealer to do that and you and the
seller both know that, so finding out the book rate is pretty much an
academic exercise.
The seller also knows how much it costs to have carbs cleaned. When
he is asking $600 for a bike that needs $400 of carb work, that doesn't
mean the bike is only worth $200. It *might* be worth $1000 once the
work is done, so their price is already taking that into account. On
the other hand, the bike might indeed be a $200 POS and it's worth more
as parts (even good bikes are often worth more in pieces). In my
experience it's better to walk away from those, because it's not worth
the effort to fix everything that is wrong with a shitty old bike when
the end result is only a somewhat less shitty old bike.
FWIW I have cleaned, adjusted and synchronized carbs on a good number
of multi-cylinder bikes and in most cases no parts need to be replaced.
The exceptions have been when prior "mechanics" have used sealer on
O-ring gaskets, ruining them. Never use any sort of goop to seal up
carbs- it's not needed and it's not helpful. If you have leaks, replace
the offending rubber part.
Biker Dude
Here's an example of a $600 bike that needs about $600 worth of carb
work:
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/mcy/1481114207.html
I think I could offer to fix it for $600. That would certainly
discourage him.
What do you think?
Biker Dude
M.Badger
> Biker Dude wrote:
>
>> May little corner of the world is filled with UJM (Universal Japanese
>> Motorcycles) with clogged carbs. The sellers of such bikes are asking
>> $600 - $800 and they mention that "it just needs a carb cleaning".
Is that all it needs? is the question of the innocents....
<big snip>
>
> FWIW I have cleaned, adjusted and synchronized carbs on a good number
> of multi-cylinder bikes and in most cases no parts need to be replaced.
> The exceptions have been when prior "mechanics" have used sealer on
> O-ring gaskets, ruining them. Never use any sort of goop to seal up
> carbs- it's not needed and it's not helpful. If you have leaks, replace
> the offending rubber part.
FWIW I have cleaned, adjusted, synchronised and fettled carbs on many bikes.
Bikes that have been regularly used are no real problem. The problem comes
when they have been stood and the fuel has turned to varnish.
Still not so bad providing they haven't been fixed. Thats fixed as in
neutering a cat.
First, the rubbers to the head and airbox -will- be a total twat. Second, on
a real SOB some fuck-knuckle will have had a go and as Mark put, will have
bodged, blodged and bludgeoned them.
So now, with skinned knuckles and at least one damaged airbox or head rubber
to contend with, you have the carbs on the bench.
You remove the carb tops and....Oh bollocks. One of the diaphragms splits
where a previous monkey glued it in place.
Next, you invert the carbs to get at the float bowl screws. At least one per
carb will have mated intimately with the carb body, and the aforementioned
pumpernaught will have destroyed the head on one other per carb.
Finally, you get inside it. What faces you now is verdigris, blocked jets
and gloop.
You get the buggers clean. You replace any and all worn parts. You replace
the rubbers and diaphragm at greater expense than you bargained for. Get it
all bolted back on and discover the other reasons the bike was stood long
enough for the carbs to varnish in the first place.
If you are doing for yourself, because that particular model holds
affectionate memories, then go for it. Otherwise, +1 for TOG, CS and Mark.
TOG@Toil
>
> Get it
> all bolted back on and discover the other reasons the bike was stood long
> enough for the carbs to varnish in the first place.
Christ, that made me laugh. :-))
TOG@Toil
one died because the charging system fritzed (as they were wont to do
on Suzukis of that era) and that is why (as Badger amusingly put it)
it was pushed into a shed 12 years ago.
CS
Will do.
What do you think?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What do I think? You'd be surprised how many people regret asking me that.
heh
Seriously, in most cases if a non-dealer mechanic quoted me the same price
as the dealer for a job like this, I'd go to the dealer. It's not that I
have blind faith in their mechanics (while they do a good job on the bike,
their advice is worse than useless) the fact is if (when) a hickup occurs,
such as a broken bolt or stripped doodad, the dealer will be more likely to
have or get the correct part in a timely manner.
The not-dealer shop I usually go to isn't significantly cheaper than the
dealer, but if I set it up, I know they'll actually start working on the
damn thing as soon as I get in there. I can bring it in for an oil change,
or the recent rebuilding of the brake master cylinder, and wait until
they're done, usually by sharing a smoke and bullshitting with the owner.
I know folks who've had good luck with backyard mechanics, but I haven't.
Doing things like this in your 'spare time' looks great on paper, but life
has a way of consuming time faster than folks notice it. I'm still waiting
on a guy to replace the engine in my VW bug. He said it would be another
week, but that was in 1989. Any day now!
If I had a fleet of bikes I'd be happy to let some guy fix one in his
garage, but I only have one, and it's my primary transportation these days,
so I hate to have it sit around for any length of time.
Oh, I had a point!
If you want folks to bring stuff to you to fix, you'll have to make it
worthwhile, as in, significantly cheaper than the dealer or local shops. I
was quoted $300 by several local shops for rebuilding 4 inline mounted
carbs. That's in the Los Angeles area. I didn't check with the dealer,
mainly because the bike was otherwise a complete disaster, and I didn't want
to deal with their drama.
As for these 'cheap' bikes that 'only need a carb cleaning', someone in this
NG mentioned that's code for "I have no idea why it doesn't run." I believe
it. As simple as bikes are compared to cars and such, there's still a lot
of pricey things that can go wrong, and if it doesn't run at all, it's going
to be a PITA to figure out what's (not) happening.
I doubt you'll have much luck getting a $600 bike for less than $600 by
bitching about how much work it needs. Do you really think he'll give you a
$400 discount on a $600 bike? Let's face it, if it ran, he'd be selling it
for a hell of a lot more, and if he knew what was wrong with it, or if it
was worth fixing, he would get it fixed. Sure, there's a million stories
out there about how some guy bought a $500 bike, sprayed some carb cleaner
around, and sold it for $20,000 or rode it for 20 years without so much as
an oil or tire change, Then sold it for $20k. I'm sorry, but you won't be
the next teller of that tale.
My story is better! I paid $5000 for mine, put about $2,500 in it over the
past year I've owned it, and I see the same thing with 1/5 of the miles
going for $4000...oh, and I've done most of the work myself! What can I
say, first bike. Anyway, if you think about it, my story is a whole lot
more common than the one above.
Other tactics might work in getting the price down, like getting chummy with
the seller, waving $500 in $20 bills around in front of his wife, who would
sell it for $5 if she could because she's sick of looking at it, or waiting
a few weeks until he finally tires of hearing 'it' from his wife and lowers
the price.
Good luck!
CS
Biker Dude
>
> Other tactics might work in getting the price down, like getting chummy with
> the seller, waving $500 in $20 bills around in front of his wife, who would
> sell it for $5 if she could because she's sick of looking at it, or waiting
> a few weeks until he finally tires of hearing 'it' from his wife and lowers
> the price.
>
> Good luck!
>
> CS
Here's my other bike:
This one begs the question "When do you fix it and when do you junk
it?" And if you junk it do you sell it to a private party, a
junkyard, or piece by piece on ebay?
I am also tempted to title the beast and then sell the portion of the
frame with the serial number along with the clear title to someone who
wants to legally get his own homebrew bike up and running.
All in all, I see many possiblities to traffic in shite old bikes and
enjoy the ride. But it's about marketing and marketing is about
taking your existing inventory and assets and then approaching the
marketplace in the most adventageous manner.
Off to Craigslist!!!
Biker Dude
Hank
accurately predicted the future for him! (Been there, done that, bought the
tshirt)
"M.Badger" <bo...@invalid.org> wrote in message
news:SixPm.98696$fF2....@newsfe26.ams2...
Hank
discovered fast-track to riches. Don't forget to write us again when you
make it big! <G>
"Biker Dude" <jacobs...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:de2f857f-b7c1-41e5...@j24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
The Older Gentleman
> This one begs the question "When do you fix it
When it's worth fixing.
> and when do you junk it?"
When it isn't
> And if you junk it do you sell it to a private party,
Sometimes
> a
> junkyard,
Never
> or piece by piece on ebay?
Quite frequently, for old classics.
--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F Triumph Street Triple
Suzuki TS250ER GN250 Damn, back to six bikes!
Try Googling before asking a damn silly question.
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
Biker Dude
Gentleman) wrote:
> Biker Dude <jacobsenpa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > This one begs the question "When do you fix it
>
> When it's worth fixing.
>
> > and when do you junk it?"
>
> When it isn't
>
> > And if you junk it do you sell it to a private party,
>
> Sometimes
>
> > a
> > junkyard,
>
> Never
>
> > or piece by piece on ebay?
>
> Quite frequently, for old classics.
Then tell me please, Fount of All Knowledge, is an '83 Kawasaki KZ550M
with shaft drive an old classic?
TIA,
Biker Dude
The Older Gentleman
>
> Then tell me please, Fount of All Knowledge, is an '83 Kawasaki KZ550M
> with shaft drive an old classic?
>
Absolutely not. Sorry. It's an old example of what was a pretty shit
bike (apart from the engine) to begin with.
M.Badger
'Tis just the way of SOBs.
I'm currently looking at swapping an X7 for an XJ650. I have a real soft
spot for XJ650s that cannot be rationally explained. The bike I'm
considering has covered approx. 280,000 miles. It runs perfectly, burns no
oil and there is -NO- bodging on it. It has been used pretty much every
day. Subtle things like when the carbs were first rebuilt, the owner junked
the cheese head screws for stainless Allen heads. The exhaust pipe is
stainless, the rear fork is gusseted around the front bracing. It has
always been fitted with either Hi-Flo or Emgo filters. 1500 mile oil
changes, 3000 mile oil filter changes but it is really down to regular use.
I'd far rather have that than one that has done 60,000 miles and spent half
its life stood in a shed. I've spent far too much time trying to sort out
bodges and the effects of not riding to be bothered.
You've been there, I've been there. A well maintained SOB, maintained by
someone who has been hit with a clue bat is far better than a low mileage,
shiny but ultimately botched bike.
Guess who has been coerced in to sorting out the carbs on a B12 that has
been stood for two years. Oh I'm looking forward to that. At least the
owner hasn't tried to sort it already, and he is a top bloke who makes a
cracking cup of tea.
It'll take a day to do the job properly. At workshop labour rates it becomes
a non viable proposition for a £1000 bike. The bike is a MK1 B12 with
20,000 miles(ish) and yup, the slow running circuits are choked.
TOG@Toil
> I'm currently looking at swapping an X7 for an XJ650. I have a real soft
> spot for XJ650s that cannot be rationally explained.
A friend had one, long ago, and it was just about bomb-proof. Made a
lovely whistling noise, too.
Me, I always preferred the XS650 twin, again, for reasons that cannot
be rationally explained.