'82 KZ440 engine running / starting issues
Ben Hartshorne
I've just bought a nice old '82 KZ440D-LTD (belt). It's my first
bike, and I've never worked on engines before. It's quite a learning
experience!
The description of my problem / experience:
Much of the time, it runs well. The engine runs smoothly, sounds good,
and idles at about 1.1krpm. But it has died a couple of times when it
wasn't very safe, and I don't feel comfortable riding at the moment.
A couple of times, it has died on me at inopportune times. It seems to
do so when I downshift going up a hill. It sometimes does so when
coming to a stop. It died once in the middle of a left turn out of a
stop sign.
When it dies, if I have any speed, the symptom is that I lose all power,
and as soon as I come to a stop or pull in the clutch, the engine stops.
It generally will not restart easily. Twice, I wasn't able to get it to
restart at all. After waiting for between 10 minutes and all day (when
I left it), it starts again without much trouble.
Last week, after riding up to the auto parts store, my bike would not
start when I came out of the store. I had to push it most of the way
home. Once, when on a nice downhill, I was able to roll-start it (by
popping the clutch). As soon as I got to the top of the corresponding
uphill (one block each), it died again. The few times I was able to
rollstart it, the engine would flare up, and I might get a few revs out
of it, then it would die again. Temperature doesn't seem to have too
much of an effect, this death at the autoparts store was in the evening,
after it had spent the day in the sun.
If I operate the choke when trying to use the electric starter, the
speed of revolutions slows, and it rarely catches. What seems to work
sometimes is to keep the choke off, and then enrich the fuel mixture as
soon as it starts until it warms up.
When the choke is on, when the bike warms up it suddenly will not idle
below 5krpm or something high like that. It's always sudden. I'll have
the choke out (rich fuel), and then after a few minutes, when the bike
warms up, as I slow down to a stop light, I don't slow down when I lay
off the gas because the idle is too high. As soon as I pull in the
clutch, the engine starts racing and I have to jump to close the choke.
I don't know if this is related to the problem above.
One more symptom: when running in first at around 2000RPM, the engine
sometimes kicks and lurches. It doesn't backfire, but it feels like you
let off the throttle too fast and then brought it back.
There is some play in the throttle, due to the junction between the
handlebar and the cable being broken. With the tank off, I can see
where the cable connects to the actual throttle, and it's a little
slack. But once you tighten it by rolling the handle a touch, the
action is nice and smooth.
The previous owner replaced one of the spark plugs when I bought it (the
old plug had been broken by a vandal). This plug now has a dark black
goo stuff puddled around the bottom of where the plug meets the casing.
I think it's oil, but it's black and thick. The plug is the same type
as the one on the other side.
So, to my non-engine familiar but logical mind, I think:
ok, I need gas and I need O2 to burn. One or the other's probably not
getting there. When the engine's running, there's good suction on the
air intake (and by covering them, the engine dies quickly). At the
advice of a Kawasaki Dealer Lady, I sprayed quick-start stuff around the
carburator while the engine was running, and the RPMs did not increase.
This is supposed to imply that there isn't an air leak.
So if the air's getting there alright, maybe the fuel's not. Yesterday
evening, I took the tank off and drained it. I took off the petcock (my
new word of the day!), and there was a bunch of gunk there. I clened it
out a bit, and put it back. I havn't tried the engine yet.
Through all this I've managed to drain my battery, so I'll need to jump
it off my car. This might be difficult because the air filter covers
the battery. Any suggestions?
When I took off the tank, I took apart the petcock to check it. I can't
quite tell if there's an extra hole or if it's correct. Let me try and
describe it. When taking the petcock apart, the front plate comes off.
This is the plate that mates with the vacuum tube. There seems to be a
one-way valve letting air go from the inside of the petcock to the
vacuum tube. This is probably where the vacuum is pulled from. If I
spray compressed air into the the vacuum tube mate (imagine the vacuum
tube has positive pressure insetad of negative), most of it goes out a
release on the bottom of the plate. But some of it goes through a very
small hole into the middle of the inside of the petcock area. It looks
like the very small hole has scorch marks around it or something like
that.
My question is - what next? Should I take the carbeurator completely
apart and try and clean it? I bought some carbeurator spray cleaner
stuff, but I've been told to "soak the carb elements in cleaner", and
that doesn't work very well with a spray. Did I get the wrong stuff?
What should I use to clean the inside of the tank? What should I use to
clean the carb?
I bought a Clymer Kawasaki KZ400, KZ/Z440, EN450 & EN500 1974-95 book.
Though it's helpful in some aspects, there are some painful parts
lacking. For example, it tells me to take off the tank, but has no
instructions or pictures telling me how to do it. Yeah, I found that
there's only one screw, and that you just yank the fuel lines off the
petcock, but I didn't realize that the switch had to be in ON or RES,
not PRI. It also doesn't include a diagram of the petcock, so that I
could take it apart to inspect it for damage.
Other random bits:
reading through an article in the kzrider website
(http://www.kzrider.com/ohio_trip.shtml), I saw this quote:
"The KZ440 is prone to vapor lock if there's even a slight upward bend in
the gas line as it leaves the petcock fitting. When the line is sloped
downward the problem goes away."
What does this mean? What's vapor lock?
Here's another quote about which I have a question (from
http://www.jb0713.com/bikes/unpassable.htm, a good story):
The engine turned over just like normal but it didn't fire. Despair
began to rise. The engine began to turn over slower as the battery died,
and despair was ready to claim victory. Then it fired, I held the
button, it fired twice more then it started. The silence of the bush was
broken by the sweet sound of a twin. I sat there keeping the RPM up to
ensure the battery would charge, the last thing I needed was to stall
with a dead battery. Relieved that my bike was alive I leaned over and
looked at the engine. Then I saw the petcock. It was in the 'normal'
position. What an idiot! I knew the battery was compromised, I knew the
carbs had drained, yet I had not turned the petcock to 'on' to fill the
bowls. The only thing wrong with starting the bike had been the
operator! If I had killed the battery just to make vacuum to open the
petcock... well I hadn't!
So should I set the petcock to PRI to fill the ??? with gas when it's
having trouble starting? I always thought I was probably flooding the
engine causing it to die and that by letting it sit for a while things
equalized so it would start again.
Thanks for any comments!
-ben
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ben Hartshorne
no....@no.spam
>bike, and I've never worked on engines before. It's quite a learning
>experience!
can only cope with a screenful of text at a time, so if all your points
don't get covered feel free to ask again
> The description of my problem / experience:
>Much of the time, it runs well. The engine runs smoothly, sounds good,
>and idles at about 1.1krpm. But it has died a couple of times when it
>wasn't very safe, and I don't feel comfortable riding at the moment.
learning to maintain and fix bikes are two separate skills: you can
learn both, just not in the same place at the same time.
>A couple of times, it has died on me at inopportune times. It seems to
>do so when I downshift going up a hill. It sometimes does so when
>coming to a stop. It died once in the middle of a left turn out of a
>stop sign.
>When it dies, if I have any speed, the symptom is that I lose all power,
>and as soon as I come to a stop or pull in the clutch, the engine stops.
>It generally will not restart easily. Twice, I wasn't able to get it to
>restart at all. After waiting for between 10 minutes and all day (when
>I left it), it starts again without much trouble.
Problem lies in the ignition system: CDI ignitor or points (can't
remember which your bike has) or in the wiring upstream.
>Last week, after riding up to the auto parts store, my bike would not
>start when I came out of the store. I had to push it most of the way
>home. Once, when on a nice downhill, I was able to roll-start it (by
>popping the clutch). As soon as I got to the top of the corresponding
>uphill (one block each), it died again. The few times I was able to
>rollstart it, the engine would flare up, and I might get a few revs out
>of it, then it would die again. Temperature doesn't seem to have too
>much of an effect, this death at the autoparts store was in the evening,
>after it had spent the day in the sun.
the handlebar mounted kill switch (OFF-ON-OFF) is in the middle)
Was there fuel in the tank? Did you try sitting and running the engine
without load?
>If I operate the choke when trying to use the electric starter, the
>speed of revolutions slows, and it rarely catches. What seems to work
>sometimes is to keep the choke off, and then enrich the fuel mixture as
>soon as it starts until it warms up.
>When the choke is on, when the bike warms up it suddenly will not idle
>below 5krpm or something high like that. It's always sudden. I'll have
>the choke out (rich fuel), and then after a few minutes, when the bike
>warms up, as I slow down to a stop light, I don't slow down when I lay
>off the gas because the idle is too high. As soon as I pull in the
>clutch, the engine starts racing and I have to jump to close the choke.
>I don't know if this is related to the problem above.
fiddled with the settings (idle speed) to compensate. This doesn't work
very well, as you discover. Sorted bikes only need the choke for a few
seconds first thing in the morning, or for a minute or so in the winter.
As you should always warm the engine up before riding, you should never
have to ride with the choke on.
>One more symptom: when running in first at around 2000RPM, the engine
>sometimes kicks and lurches. It doesn't backfire, but it feels like you
>let off the throttle too fast and then brought it back.
cylinder wants to rev up while the other wants to slow down....
>There is some play in the throttle, due to the junction between the
>handlebar and the cable being broken. With the tank off, I can see
>where the cable connects to the actual throttle, and it's a little
>slack. But once you tighten it by rolling the handle a touch, the
>action is nice and smooth.
may save your life. Buy a new cable (it comes with a new metal curve)
or get a new handlebar fitting from a breakers yard, and fix the
throttle.
>The previous owner replaced one of the spark plugs when I bought it (the
>old plug had been broken by a vandal). This plug now has a dark black
>goo stuff puddled around the bottom of where the plug meets the casing.
>I think it's oil, but it's black and thick. The plug is the same type
>as the one on the other side.
You need a new gasket on the cylinder head cover: It's cheap, made of
paper and needs replacing every couple of services.
>So, to my non-engine familiar but logical mind, I think:
>ok, I need gas and I need O2 to burn. One or the other's probably not
>getting there. When the engine's running, there's good suction on the
>air intake (and by covering them, the engine dies quickly). At the
>advice of a Kawasaki Dealer Lady, I sprayed quick-start stuff around the
>carburator while the engine was running, and the RPMs did not increase.
>This is supposed to imply that there isn't an air leak.
>So if the air's getting there alright, maybe the fuel's not. Yesterday
>evening, I took the tank off and drained it. I took off the petcock (my
>new word of the day!), and there was a bunch of gunk there. I clened it
>out a bit, and put it back. I havn't tried the engine yet.
dirty it is inside. Clean the carburettors while you do this (same time
as you sort out the throttle). When the tank is off, you can put on a
new head cover gasket, checking the valve clearances while you have the
cover off. The cleaned carburettors can be balanced before the tank is
put back on, and you're a pair of spark plugs, oil and filter change
away from an engine service
>Through all this I've managed to drain my battery, so I'll need to jump
>it off my car. This might be difficult because the air filter covers
>the battery. Any suggestions?
charger. Check fluid levels and top up with distilled water.
A discharged battery can cause running as well as starting difficulties.
>When I took off the tank, I took apart the petcock to check it. I can't
>quite tell if there's an extra hole or if it's correct. Let me try and
>describe it. When taking the petcock apart, the front plate comes off.
>This is the plate that mates with the vacuum tube. There seems to be a
>one-way valve letting air go from the inside of the petcock to the
>vacuum tube. This is probably where the vacuum is pulled from. If I
>spray compressed air into the the vacuum tube mate (imagine the vacuum
>tube has positive pressure insetad of negative), most of it goes out a
>release on the bottom of the plate. But some of it goes through a very
>small hole into the middle of the inside of the petcock area. It looks
>like the very small hole has scorch marks around it or something like
>that.
order) suppliers if you need it. Vacuum on vacuum hose opens valve when
"ON" or "RESERVE". Valve open regardless on "PRIME"
>My question is - what next? Should I take the carbeurator completely
>apart and try and clean it? I bought some carbeurator spray cleaner
>stuff, but I've been told to "soak the carb elements in cleaner", and
>that doesn't work very well with a spray. Did I get the wrong stuff?
delicate black rubber diaphragms on the top, and the float & needles
from the bottom. Wear eye face hand and lung protection, and spray
every tiny hole in the carbs with the cleaner - it might take some work,
so give it a few goes. Do all this in a bucket, and use the fluid that
collects (xylene, toluene and the like - I hope those gloves are thick
and you're outside) to scrub the deposits out of the float bowls.
Use nothing harder than a toothbrush bristle to clean out the tiny brass
jet holes. Unscrew and clean the pilot jets.
>What should I use to clean the inside of the tank?
Petseal. Watch out for rust under the "Kawasaki" badges: It will eat in
before internal rust eats out.
> What should I use to
>clean the carb?
polish to get it looking good.
Benjamin Hartshorne
In article <RPp0ACAx...@astrodome.demon.co.uk> you wrote:
>> I've just bought a nice old '82 KZ440D-LTD (belt). It's my first
>>bike, and I've never worked on engines before. It's quite a learning
>>experience!
> Well this is the right place to look for answers, but my addled brain
> can only cope with a screenful of text at a time, so if all your points
> don't get covered feel free to ask again
Wow, what a wealth of information! Thanks! I've got a couple of clarification
questions inline below.
>> The description of my problem / experience:
>>Much of the time, it runs well. The engine runs smoothly, sounds good,
>>and idles at about 1.1krpm. But it has died a couple of times when it
>>wasn't very safe, and I don't feel comfortable riding at the moment.
> So take it off the road and sort it out: Learning to ride a bike and
> learning to maintain and fix bikes are two separate skills: you can
> learn both, just not in the same place at the same time.
My only problem with this is that I havn't been able to recreate the problem
reliably, so how do I know when I've fixed it without riding? Besides, I'm
already hooked... But you're right. I won't stay hooked long if I let my bike
kill me. ;)
>>A couple of times, it has died on me at inopportune times. It seems to
>>do so when I downshift going up a hill. It sometimes does so when
>>coming to a stop. It died once in the middle of a left turn out of a
>>stop sign.
>>When it dies, if I have any speed, the symptom is that I lose all power,
>>and as soon as I come to a stop or pull in the clutch, the engine stops.
>>It generally will not restart easily. Twice, I wasn't able to get it to
>>restart at all. After waiting for between 10 minutes and all day (when
>>I left it), it starts again without much trouble.
> Symptom is total electrical failure of the High tension circuit.
> Problem lies in the ignition system: CDI ignitor or points (can't
> remember which your bike has) or in the wiring upstream.
But why would the ignition system go into total failure at random points while
I'm riding? And then start working again without any change?
>>Last week, after riding up to the auto parts store, my bike would not
>>start when I came out of the store. I had to push it most of the way
>>home. Once, when on a nice downhill, I was able to roll-start it (by
>>popping the clutch). As soon as I got to the top of the corresponding
>>uphill (one block each), it died again. The few times I was able to
>>rollstart it, the engine would flare up, and I might get a few revs out
>>of it, then it would die again. Temperature doesn't seem to have too
>>much of an effect, this death at the autoparts store was in the evening,
>>after it had spent the day in the sun.
> The engine was firing, wasn't it? (Note for Kwak owners: ALWAYS check
> the handlebar mounted kill switch (OFF-ON-OFF) is in the middle)
> Was there fuel in the tank? Did you try sitting and running the engine
> without load?
It was firing when it caught, the rest of the time, it was turning over but
nothing was catching. It doesn't even turn over if the switch is in the OFF
position.
>>If I operate the choke when trying to use the electric starter, the
>>speed of revolutions slows, and it rarely catches. What seems to work
>>sometimes is to keep the choke off, and then enrich the fuel mixture as
>>soon as it starts until it warms up.
>>When the choke is on, when the bike warms up it suddenly will not idle
>>below 5krpm or something high like that. It's always sudden. I'll have
>>the choke out (rich fuel), and then after a few minutes, when the bike
>>warms up, as I slow down to a stop light, I don't slow down when I lay
>>off the gas because the idle is too high. As soon as I pull in the
>>clutch, the engine starts racing and I have to jump to close the choke.
>>I don't know if this is related to the problem above.
> One carburettor (or both) have blocked idle jets, and someone has
> fiddled with the settings (idle speed) to compensate. This doesn't work
> very well, as you discover. Sorted bikes only need the choke for a few
> seconds first thing in the morning, or for a minute or so in the winter.
> As you should always warm the engine up before riding, you should never
> have to ride with the choke on.
By taking it apart and getting it with the toothbrush and carb cleaner it'll
fix this?
>>One more symptom: when running in first at around 2000RPM, the engine
>>sometimes kicks and lurches. It doesn't backfire, but it feels like you
>>let off the throttle too fast and then brought it back.
> The two carburettors are not "balanced": At low-ish throttle, one
> cylinder wants to rev up while the other wants to slow down....
I would need a set of vacuum guages to balance the carb, right? I think that
might be one to leave to the pros...
>>There is some play in the throttle, due to the junction between the
>>handlebar and the cable being broken. With the tank off, I can see
>>where the cable connects to the actual throttle, and it's a little
>>slack. But once you tighten it by rolling the handle a touch, the
>>action is nice and smooth.
> Does it open all the way? You will want full throttle one day, and it
> may save your life. Buy a new cable (it comes with a new metal curve)
> or get a new handlebar fitting from a breakers yard, and fix the
> throttle.
yeah, it does. But I"m going to get a new cable anyways.
>>The previous owner replaced one of the spark plugs when I bought it (the
>>old plug had been broken by a vandal). This plug now has a dark black
>>goo stuff puddled around the bottom of where the plug meets the casing.
>>I think it's oil, but it's black and thick. The plug is the same type
>>as the one on the other side.
> Oil leak (Oil+road muck+high temperature=Black thick muck).
> You need a new gasket on the cylinder head cover: It's cheap, made of
> paper and needs replacing every couple of services.
That would require actually disassembling the whole engine, right? Is it
really necessary? Is this one of the nasty problems or one I can ignore?
>>So, to my non-engine familiar but logical mind, I think:
>>ok, I need gas and I need O2 to burn. One or the other's probably not
>>getting there. When the engine's running, there's good suction on the
>>air intake (and by covering them, the engine dies quickly). At the
>>advice of a Kawasaki Dealer Lady, I sprayed quick-start stuff around the
>>carburator while the engine was running, and the RPMs did not increase.
>>This is supposed to imply that there isn't an air leak.
>>So if the air's getting there alright, maybe the fuel's not. Yesterday
>>evening, I took the tank off and drained it. I took off the petcock (my
>>new word of the day!), and there was a bunch of gunk there. I clened it
>>out a bit, and put it back. I havn't tried the engine yet.
> Drain and clean the tank. Wash out that rust and water and see how
> dirty it is inside. Clean the carburettors while you do this (same time
> as you sort out the throttle). When the tank is off, you can put on a
> new head cover gasket, checking the valve clearances while you have the
> cover off. The cleaned carburettors can be balanced before the tank is
> put back on, and you're a pair of spark plugs, oil and filter change
> away from an engine service
How long should all this take, roughly? I also don't think I have the tools
for the more complicated stuff. I"m pretty much restricted to screw drivers,
wrenches, and spray stuff. :)
>>Through all this I've managed to drain my battery, so I'll need to jump
>>it off my car. This might be difficult because the air filter covers
>>the battery. Any suggestions?
> Remove the battery from the bike and recharge properly with a battery
> charger. Check fluid levels and top up with distilled water.
> A discharged battery can cause running as well as starting difficulties.
No battery charger. :( Is it bad to jump it and let the alternator charge
the battery?
>>When I took off the tank, I took apart the petcock to check it. I can't
>>quite tell if there's an extra hole or if it's correct. Let me try and
>>describe it. When taking the petcock apart, the front plate comes off.
>>This is the plate that mates with the vacuum tube. There seems to be a
>>one-way valve letting air go from the inside of the petcock to the
>>vacuum tube. This is probably where the vacuum is pulled from. If I
>>spray compressed air into the the vacuum tube mate (imagine the vacuum
>>tube has positive pressure insetad of negative), most of it goes out a
>>release on the bottom of the plate. But some of it goes through a very
>>small hole into the middle of the inside of the petcock area. It looks
>>like the very small hole has scorch marks around it or something like
>>that.
> Oh dear. Petcock rebuild kits available from many aftermarket (mail
> order) suppliers if you need it. Vacuum on vacuum hose opens valve when
> "ON" or "RESERVE". Valve open regardless on "PRIME"
right, is the small hole actually not supposed to be there? I can't find any
pictures online to compare it to, and there aren't any in my Clymer book.
Again, thanks for all your info!
-ben
>>My question is - what next? Should I take the carbeurator completely
>>apart and try and clean it? I bought some carbeurator spray cleaner
>>stuff, but I've been told to "soak the carb elements in cleaner", and
>>that doesn't work very well with a spray. Did I get the wrong stuff?
> Open op the top and bottom of the carbs, and carefully remove the
> delicate black rubber diaphragms on the top, and the float & needles
> from the bottom. Wear eye face hand and lung protection, and spray
> every tiny hole in the carbs with the cleaner - it might take some work,
> so give it a few goes. Do all this in a bucket, and use the fluid that
> collects (xylene, toluene and the like - I hope those gloves are thick
> and you're outside) to scrub the deposits out of the float bowls.
> Use nothing harder than a toothbrush bristle to clean out the tiny brass
> jet holes. Unscrew and clean the pilot jets.
>>What should I use to clean the inside of the tank?
> Kerosene. If it's rusty, use Phosphoric acid. If it's pinholed, use
> Petseal. Watch out for rust under the "Kawasaki" badges: It will eat in
> before internal rust eats out.
>> What should I use to
>>clean the carb?
> The can you've bought, a bucket, toothbrush and (finally) some chrome
> polish to get it looking good.
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ben Hartshorne
Benjamin Hartshorne
Ok, new information. Thanks for the tips, kode. I washed the fuel
tank, checked the battery, and cleaned the carb (someewhat). I did'nt
take the carb apart, but I did spray the cleaner stuff all around and
work the parts that moved a bit. I also drained a bit of oil (I
overfilled it last time), so the amount is right in the middle of the
glass window when the bike is on its center stand.
But here's what I tried today. After cleaning stuff and putting it back
together, I got it started with a roll-start (the battery was kinda
dead), and it started right up. I brought it back to my driveway and
just let it sit there idling. After 10 minutes or so, it just stopped.
It started once more, and stopped quickly. It wouldn't start anymore.
An hour later, I roll-started it again, it caught right up. Let it idle
for 10 minutes (more or less), and it dies. It won't start up at all
this time.
Rollstarting when it's dead like this - the engine turns over, but the
gas doesn't catch. The exhaust stinks like gasoline, and the bike just
grinds to a halt in gear.
I'll believe that it's some electrical problem. But how do I check it?
And why has it just started? ::sigh:: I also found out today that if I
fail to fix it, the kawasaki dealer nearby won't take it because they're
too busy and don't want to take on the challenge of an old bike. So I'm
pretty much on my own.
I'm supposed to be an engineer type and good with electronics. But I
just don't know the first think about what's where. This whole "check
the breaker point ignition" thing? I don't even know what a breaker
point is. It's kinda frustrating when the instructions (in the clymer
book) start by saying "take the cover off the starter selenoid." (ok,
exaggerating. But not by much.)
Thanks for any advice,
no....@no.spam
>reliably, so how do I know when I've fixed it without riding? Besides, I'm
>already hooked... But you're right. I won't stay hooked long if I let my bike
>I'm riding? And then start working again without any change?
Electrical problems in older bikes are commonplace, due mostly to
exposed low quality connectors and a few years of road muck, salt and
rain. Wiring breaks where it is heated or abraided, and multiplug
connector pins (copper and tin) get so covered in corrosion that the
slightest movement of the wiring loom causes a loss of connection (or an
increase in electrical resistance & current drop: same result). Turning
the handlebars or pushing the tank forward with your knees can often be
enough to bugger a dodgy multiplug for the few seconds it takes to grind
to a halt.
Very carefully (brass) wire brush every connector on your wiring loom,
pack with petroleum jelly (to prevent corrosion again) and reconnect.
A multimeter (or battery & test light setup) can be used to check dodgy-
looking wires.
>> The engine was firing, wasn't it? (Note for Kwak owners: ALWAYS check
>> the handlebar mounted kill switch (OFF-ON-OFF) is in the middle)
>> Was there fuel in the tank? Did you try sitting and running the engine
>> without load?
>It was firing when it caught, the rest of the time, it was turning over but
>nothing was catching. It doesn't even turn over if the switch is in the OFF
>position.
If the starter was turning over "lazily" rather than spinning fast
(would you know the difference?) I'd suspect a nearly dead battery.
The bike needs a healthy 12+Volts to fire the ICU electronic ignition,
and spinning the starter draws so much juice there isn't enough left for
the ignition to produce a decent spark. A fully charged (and healthy)
battery is the cure here.
>> One carburettor (or both) have blocked idle jets, and someone has
>> fiddled with the settings (idle speed) to compensate. This doesn't work
>> very well, as you discover. Sorted bikes only need the choke for a few
>> seconds first thing in the morning, or for a minute or so in the winter.
>> As you should always warm the engine up before riding, you should never
>> have to ride with the choke on.
>
>By taking it apart and getting it with the toothbrush and carb cleaner it'll
>fix this?
Yes, if you re-set the fiddly bits when you put the carbs back on the
bike - but you do all that (idle speed, throttle balance, idle mixture)
when you balance the carbs...
>> The two carburettors are not "balanced": At low-ish throttle, one
>> cylinder wants to rev up while the other wants to slow down....
>
>I would need a set of vacuum guages to balance the carb, right? I think that
>might be one to leave to the pros...
Ha! The pros will charge you more than the cost of buying the gauges
yourself. Buy cheap tools now, and replace the ones that break with
better quality tools: at least that way you can afford to buy the tools
you need to do the job.
>> Oil leak (Oil+road muck+high temperature=Black thick muck).
>> You need a new gasket on the cylinder head cover: It's cheap, made of
>> paper and needs replacing every couple of services.
>
>That would require actually disassembling the whole engine, right? Is it
>really necessary? Is this one of the nasty problems or one I can ignore?
>
No, it involves taking off the metal top of the engine in-situ, exposing
the valvegear (valves, camshaft etc.). This should be done every 6000
miles (Kawasaki service manual) to measure the valve clearances. The
only difficult bit is re-torquing the bolts back on, which most people
do far too tightly: Buy a torque wrench before you need a Helicoil kit.
>> Drain and clean the tank. Wash out that rust and water and see how
>> dirty it is inside. Clean the carburettors while you do this (same time
>> as you sort out the throttle). When the tank is off, you can put on a
>> new head cover gasket, checking the valve clearances while you have the
>> cover off. The cleaned carburettors can be balanced before the tank is
>> put back on, and you're a pair of spark plugs, oil and filter change
>> away from an engine service
>
>How long should all this take, roughly? I also don't think I have the tools
>for the more complicated stuff. I"m pretty much restricted to screw drivers,
>wrenches, and spray stuff. :)
If you're doing it for the first time, take a week or two. You are
undoing eighteen years of neglect and giving it a thorough engine
service (N.B. The chassis is a whole different kettle of fish, but lets
get the engine sorted first). A set of METRIC spanners or socket
wrenches is vital, and a Phillips #3 screwdriver will come in handy too.
You'll need a set of feeler gauges (metric or imperial) for the valve
gaps, and a Kawasaki shop can sort you out the head cover gasket (NOT a
"Head gasket" - that's something else) oil and air filters and spark
plugs. Use 10w40 motorcycle oil too.
> :( Is it bad to jump it and let the alternator charge
>the battery?
The alternator doesn't charge the battery anywhere near enough. Jumping
from a car battery is possible (although you can cook your starter if
you keep grinding away). Jumping from a running car is a No-no (voltage
surges, current surges, weeny little bike regulator goes poof, expensive
bike ICU igniton module goes Phut).
If the battery voltage doesn't jump from 12.x volts to 13.x volts when
the bike is running @4000rpm then you have charging circuit problems.
>> Oh dear. Petcock rebuild kits available from many aftermarket (mail
>> order) suppliers if you need it. Vacuum on vacuum hose opens valve when
>> "ON" or "RESERVE". Valve open regardless on "PRIME"
>
>right, is the small hole actually not supposed to be there?
Don't know...Does the petcock work OK?
>I can't find any
>pictures online to compare it to, and there aren't any in my Clymer book.
www.buykawasaki.com has parts diagrams on-line for public access.
Not the easiest GUI to navigate, but the diagrams are the same as the
microfiches and workshop manuals.
The genuine Kawasaki Workshop Manuals are highly recommended. It will
teach you more than I ever could about fixing your bike (although I've
learned a few nice bodges along the way).
no....@no.spam
this group.
<snip>
>But here's what I tried today. After cleaning stuff and putting it back
>together, I got it started with a roll-start (the battery was kinda
>dead), and it started right up. I brought it back to my driveway and
>just let it sit there idling. After 10 minutes or so, it just stopped.
>It started once more, and stopped quickly. It wouldn't start anymore.
>An hour later, I roll-started it again, it caught right up. Let it idle
>for 10 minutes (more or less), and it dies. It won't start up at all
>this time.
>Rollstarting when it's dead like this - the engine turns over, but the
>gas doesn't catch. The exhaust stinks like gasoline, and the bike just
>grinds to a halt in gear.
Your battery is "dead" because the charging system on the bike is
faulty, and not charging the battery.
The battery can summon up enough current to keep the ignition sparking
for a few minutes, but then the voltage drops too low to keep the ICU
working and the bike stops. Leaving the battery to "recover" for an
hour or so allows it to summon up a bit more juice for an few minutes
running.... ad nauseum.
Charge the battery, replace if buggered.
Check charging system on bike across battery terminals (12.xV to 13.xV
@4000rpm)
>I'll believe that it's some electrical problem. But how do I check it?
>And why has it just started? ::sigh::
It hasn't just started - the previous owner knew he had a problematic
bike and sold it (Hopeully for a Whacking great loss = your gain when
you get the bike sorted).
> I also found out today that if I
>fail to fix it, the kawasaki dealer nearby won't take it because they're
>too busy and don't want to take on the challenge of an old bike. So I'm
>pretty much on my own.
Yup. Fuckem. They'd only get some trainee to bodge it anyway.
You can get most (all) the parts you need from aftermarket (mail order
or online) suppliers, and breakers yards for any expensive stuff.
>I'm supposed to be an engineer type and good with electronics. But I
>just don't know the first think about what's where. This whole "check
>the breaker point ignition" thing? I don't even know what a breaker
>point is. It's kinda frustrating when the instructions (in the clymer
>book) start by saying "take the cover off the starter selenoid." (ok,
>exaggerating. But not by much.)
They have to call their doohickey/widget something (some old manuals had
an English-American translator in them.... )
Benjamin Hartshorne
I bought a battery charger and gave the thing a nice chunk 'o juice. The
voltage went up to 12.5V, but I thought it was suposed to nearly hit 13. I
checked my car battery and it's 13.5. Is my battery dead? I bought a
hydrometer to try and check the electrolyte levels, but I couldn't figure out
how to read the thing. One time when I squirted the fluid up into it, all the
balls were at the bottom. Another time, they were all at the top. I was
confused.
I also found out that I'm pretty much an idiot. I had two different spark
plugs in my bike. Granted, they're not very different (B7ES and BP7ES), but I
still felt like a dolt. But getting new plugs and charging the battery still
hasn't fixed it (I also opened up and scrubbed every electrical connection with
a plug I could reach). I took it around the block a couple times, and after
riding for about 10 minutes, it died at a stoplight. It started again, but at
the stop sign a few blocks away, it died again and wouldn't start. The
battery charge was still around 12.5V after letting it recover for a touch.
So I remember from once upno a time that a dead batter can still have a high
voltage, but it just can't turn out the amps necessary to keep the sparks
going. Is that right? I took my bike to Kragen Auto Pats, because they
advertise free battery testing. They woudln't do it, only car batteries. So I
guess I'll have to go to a bike shop.
But regarding one thing kobe said, I'm a little confused. I was told to check
the engine runing at 4000RPM for a voltage of 13.5V or so. When I rev the
engine and it's not in gear, the voltage across the battery drops. Does the
wheel have to be turning for the alternator to charge the battery (and
therefore give an increased voltage)? Or is just the engine sufficient? Am I
supposed to take this reading in neutral or gear? WHich gear? If the wheel
needs to be spinnig, I'm a little nervous to have my wheel spinning with
4000RPM behind it on the center stand next to my house... The slightest shake
could knock it off the stand and into the wall. Suggestions?
My next thoughts are to have a bike shop check the battery and alternator for
me. If either one is bad, replace it. If both are good, or if doing that
doesn't solve my problem, I'm kinda stumped.
-ben
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ben Hartshorne
S. Mcfall
"project". From what I've heard it sounds like you have a bad battery, I
would give up on it and get a new one.
When testing voltage output you would leave your bike in neuteral, I don't
beleive that the wheel needs to be in motion. The voltage should
definatley go up when you rev it to 4000rpm.
Again I am new to this, so if anyone else has a different solution, I'm
all ears. And I have a few questions myself..
-Siyon
Stephen Malbon
bikes is mounted directly onto one end of the crank.
If the battery voltage is falling away as revs go up then that says to me
that it's the generator/rectifier/voltage-regulator that's at fault.
SteveM
"S. Mcfall" <si...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.A41.4.44.020723...@dante27.u.washington.edu...
D Whitehorn-Umphres
----- Original Message -----
From: "Benjamin Hartshorne" <kz...@green.hartshorne.net>
Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles.tech
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: '82 KZ440 engine running / starting issues
> Latest update:
>
I had one of these (used) and it had a problem wherein it would run
fine(-ish) 'til the engine got hot. Turned out the condenser had failed in
some fashion and that the resistance across it would eventually got prevent
any current from flowing. On very cold days it would take longer to fail
than warm days. Very hard to diagnose. I seem to recall that I found it by
replacing parts in the ignition starting with the cheap ones, thus
discovering it nearly immediately.
-dawu -- ex-KZ owner, current DoD holder of #0366
Kaybearjr
>The voltage went up to 12.5V, but I thought it was suposed to nearly hit 13.
I checked my car battery and it's 13.5. Is my battery dead?
Your bike's battery may be sulfated from sitting in a discharged condition for
too long. Lead sulfate deposits on the plates, and the electrolyte cannot
penetrate the plates to get to the unsulfated lead to perform the required
electrochemistry...
Alternatively, the battery has internal short circuits...
When charging a good battery, you will see the voltage across the terminals
gradually rise to 14.5 volts. After you disconnect the battery from the
charger, it will drop off to 13.2 volts, a fully-charged condition...
>I bought a hydrometer to try and check the electrolyte levels, but I couldn't
figure out how to read the thing. One time when I squirted the fluid up into
it, all the balls were at the bottom. Another time, they were all at the top.
I was confused.
You have to pump the bulb a few times to expel any previous acid sample, and
you have to thoroughly wet the inside of the glass tube with whatever acid you
are sampling. Furthermore, the balls may float on tiny air bubbles, so you have
to get the air out by pumping the bulb...
>I also found out that I'm pretty much an idiot. I had two different spark
plugs in my bike. Granted, they're not very different (B7ES and BP7ES), but I
still felt like a dolt.
B7ES is a standard plug. BP7ES is an extended insulator plug that gets the
spark closer to the center of the combustion chamber so it will burn cleaner
and act like it's a little hotter than the B7ES...
>So I remember from once upno a time that a dead batter can still have a high
voltage, but it just can't turn out the amps necessary to keep the sparks
going. Is that right?
True. A sulfated battery might have a "surface charge" but the ampere hour
capacity is substantially reduced.
Translation: the battery will suddenly go "dead"...
>But regarding one thing kobe said, I'm a little confused. I was told to
check the engine runing at 4000RPM for a voltage of 13.5V or so. When I rev
the engine and it's not in gear, the voltage across the battery drops.
Voltage checks are done with the bike in neutral. There is an electrical
phenomenon called "diode clamping". You have 6 diodes in your regulator
rectifier. If power is applied to a diode that is connected to a shorted
battery, the voltage applied to the diode can never rise about the initial
voltage unless you have a tremendous amount of power to apply to the circuit...
This leads me to believe that your battery might be internally shorted by lead
sludge in the bottom of the cells. You can see it from underneath if your
battery has a clear plastic case...
>My next thoughts are to have a bike shop check the battery and alternator for
me. If either one is bad, replace it. If both are good, or if doing that
doesn't solve my problem, I'm kinda stumped.
The obvious starting point is to replace the relatively inexpensive battery
with a new, quality battery like a Yuasa...
If that doesn't solve your problem, check the alternator for
"open circuit" voltage with the output wires disconnected from the bike's
wiring harness. You will probably get 90 to 120 volts out of a good alternator,
but check a shop manual for correct readings, and DO NOT ride the bike with the
alternator disconnected, because you could
destroy the insulation on the stator windings doing that...
no....@no.spam
>the engine runing at 4000RPM for a voltage of 13.5V or so. When I rev the
>engine and it's not in gear, the voltage across the battery drops.
You have a faulty (non-)charging system: The AC current (if any) from
the Alternator isn't getting through the Regulator/rectifier unit to
charge the battery (when the engine is running, regardless of gear).
It's either:
Buggered alternator
Buggered rectifier
Buggered wiring/connectors
Check your connectors first (Alternator to loom, reg/rec unit to loom)
before suspecting the components: the Alternator wires (3 Yellow wires
coming out of the left hand crankshaft cover) should put out 50V AC
across any two wires. (If you only have two wires, I'd expect 75Volts).
Checking the Reg/rec unit is fairly easy, but I'm not going to recite
the manual verbatim unless I really have to... Check the wiring and
Alternator output first, because that only needs a multimeter (AC,
remember!).
The discharging battery (which your ignition system is using constantly
to fire the spark plugs) could well explain the poor running and
frequent breakdowns. If the battery is really shagged it won't be able
to hold a charge (drain off surface charge with a 12v bulb for half an
hour to see if the battery keeps the bulb lit): A good battery should
stabilise to about 12.65 volts when fully charged. One that reaches
12.5V should have about 80% Max capacity... old and tired but still
serviceable (fully discharged is 11.89 volts). Continiously monitoring
voltage across battery terminals whilst riding along can be very
educational.
ReAssembler
"Benjamin Hartshorne" <kz...@green.hartshorne.net> wrote in message
news:ahits6$c8o$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
> But regarding one thing kobe said, I'm a little confused. I was
told to check
> the engine runing at 4000RPM for a voltage of 13.5V or so. When I
rev the
> engine and it's not in gear, the voltage across the battery drops.
That is the correct test. the battery is dead, replace.
ReAssembler
Benjamin Hartshorne
I've gotten it from several people that regarding the above symptom,
it denotes that the charging system (probably the alternator) is bad,
not the battery.
I took the battery to the shop to get it tested anyways and though
it had no charge, it was good. The shop charged it for me and tested
it for free! :) So my battery is fine. Next step is to figure out
where the alternator is and test it. My Clymers book does tell me
how to do that, and what it means.
"The voltage should be at or near battery voltage at idle and it should
increase with engine sped, up to about 15 volts. If the reading is much
higher, the regulator / rectifier is defective and should be replaced. If the
reading is less than specified or does not increase with rpm, check the
alternator and regulator / rectifier." (Clymers, 226)
it then goes on to tell me how to test it (which I can repeat if someone needs
to know...).
I'll lett you all know what happens when this step is done!
And thanks for all your help so far.
-ben
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ben Hartshorne
Benjamin Hartshorne
I took my battery into my local bike shop, and they did me the favor of
charging and testing the battery. It is a perfectly good battery still, so
that part is now known good. Nice to get it off the list.
I just wanted to double check what I saw before, that the voltage dropped
instead of rose (across the battery) when the engine was at 4000RPM. At idle,
the battery voltage slowly rises. Very slowly. At 4000RPM, the voltage drops,
although again, slowly. Do you think the voltage rising at idle is because a
little current is getting through the R/R or because the battery (fully
charged) is strong enough to recover some of its own power (as it does when the
engine is off) faster than 1000RPMs worth of sparks is drawing from it?
The next step was to test the alternator. My Clymers manual told me to take
off the engine sprocket cover, and test across the two yellow wires there.
Eric B. (Thanks Eric!) told me that that was a silly waste of effort, and I
should test the output at the electrical plug where it goes into the Rectifier
/ Regulator. That makes a lot more sense. :)
The R/R is the heat-sink like thingy on the left hand side of the battery case.
It is flat on top with a fan of metal protruding downwards. As explained to
me, its purpose is to dissipate (in heat) excess current coming from the
alternator so as to not over charge the battery. It also converts the AC coming
out of the alternator to DC acceptable to the battery.
To test the alternator, I took my handy multimeter, set it to the <=200VAC
range, and hooked it across the two yellow wires going into the R/R (but on the
alternator side of the plug). It read 27VAC at idle, and 79VAC at 4000RPM. My
Clymers book says it should be 75VAC at 4000RPM, which is close enough.
The next step was to check the resistance across different parts of this
system. Time for a little picture so I can tell you what connections were
measured at what voltage.
plug
+-----+-----+ +-------------+
+-------------+ yellow1 | | | yellow3 | |
| +-------------- | ----------------+ Rectifier/ |
| alternator | | | | | Regulator |
| | | | | yellow4 | |
| +-------------- | ----------------+ |
+-------------+ yellow2 | | | | |
| | | +-----+---+-+-+
| | | | | |
+---------------- | -------------------+--+ | +--+
| black | | | black | | |
| +-----+-----+ | +-+ |
| | | |
-------- -------- | |
------ ------ | |
--- --- | |
ground ground | |
| |
| |
<--white/red-----+ |
battery positive |
fuse |
ignition |
|
|
<--brown------------+
ignition switch
(Thank you emacs artist-mode! see http://ben.hartshorne.net/artist.el for a
copy of the elisp file, M-x artist-mode to enable. middle click for options)
(If the diagram doesn't look right, try setting your browser to a fixed-width
font like Courier)
One caveat - My ohmmeter doesn't go quite low enough for one measurement.
Crossing the probes gives 0.5ohms resistance, so that is the lowest it can
read. I'd have to get a smaller one to really do this right.
OK, here are the resistances I measured:
WIRES CROSSED MEASUREMENT SPECIFICATION
yellow1 x yellow2 0.9ohms 0.26-0.38
yellow3+ x black- inf <20ohms
yellow4+ x black- inf <20ohms
black+ x yellow3- 0.914Kohms >100ohms
black+ x yellow4- 0.914Kohms >100ohms
It appears that the alternators resistance is too high, which indicates the
stator has an open, but I don't trust my ohmmeter at that low readings, so it
may very well be correct. What is more obvious a problem is the open reading
through the R/R. That the reading is different putting the positive and
negative probes on the same wires makes sense because they're going through
diodes. This is also what converts the AC to DC. (A diode only allows
electricity through in one direction.) So I think something is fried inside
the R/R, and it should be replaced. The reading of infinity where it should be
20 ohms leads me to believe that none of the juice from the alternator is
making it to the battery in order to charge it.
So it seems my problem has been successfully isolated, thanks to the wonderful
help of this newsgroup! You all rock!
Unfortunately, now that I (believe I) know the source of the problem, I need to
replace the part. I looked it up at http://www.buykawasaki.com, and found it
to be 21066-1014. I looked up this part on http://www.cycle-parts.com, and
found it to be $231.79, on http://www.bikebandit.com (they didn't have it), and
on http://www.ronayers.com and they're selling it for $200.03. I'm a little
surprised it's so expensive for a solid-state device.
I decided to probe craigs list instead (http://www.craigslist.com) and found
that the bike yard in San Francisco (http://www.bikeyardsf.com) has a "Kawasaki
79 LTD 440" for sale for parts for $50. I don't have to buy the whole bike, if
I bring tools they don't mind if I just take one part. I just hope the R/R is
still on the bike they've got. I'm assuming that the part is the same, because
the Clymers I've got lists what I've done as the appropriate test for KZ440
'78-'83. It doesn't explicitly say its the same part, but I can hope.
So I think I'm just about done! I'm going to try and get into the City
sometime this coming week to pick up the R/R, and install it. If all goes
well, you'll see one more post from me on this topic saying my bike is happy
again! Maybe I shouldn't jinx it like this, but I like to tempt fate.
So once again, thanks to everyone for their assistance!
-ben
--
Ben Hartshorne
no....@no.spam
>charging and testing the battery. It is a perfectly good battery still, so
>that part is now known good. Nice to get it off the list.
>I just wanted to double check what I saw before, that the voltage dropped
>instead of rose (across the battery) when the engine was at 4000RPM. At idle,
>the battery voltage slowly rises. Very slowly. At 4000RPM, the voltage drops,
>although again, slowly. Do you think the voltage rising at idle is because a
>little current is getting through the R/R
>or because the battery (fully
>charged) is strong enough to recover some of its own power (as it does when the
>engine is off) faster than 1000RPMs worth of sparks is drawing from it?
>The next step was to test the alternator.
> which is close enough.
>
>The next step was to check the resistance across different parts of this
>Crossing the probes gives 0.5ohms resistance, so that is the lowest it can
>read. I'd have to get a smaller one to really do this right.
>OK, here are the resistances I measured:
>
>WIRES CROSSED MEASUREMENT SPECIFICATION
>yellow1 x yellow2 0.9ohms 0.26-0.38
>yellow3+ x black- inf <20ohms
>yellow4+ x black- inf <20ohms
>black+ x yellow3- 0.914Kohms >100ohms
>black+ x yellow4- 0.914Kohms >100ohms
>
>It appears that the alternators resistance is too high, which indicates the
>stator has an open, but I don't trust my ohmmeter at that low readings, so it
>may very well be correct.
Wires and dirty connectors have a resistance too.
> What is more obvious a problem is the open reading
>through the R/R.
>help of this newsgroup! You all rock!
>Unfortunately, now that I (believe I) know the source of the problem, I need to
>replace the part.
>"Kawasaki
>79 LTD 440" for sale for parts for $50. I don't have to buy the whole bike, if
>I bring tools they don't mind if I just take one part. I just hope the R/R is
>still on the bike they've got. I'm assuming that the part is the same, because
>the Clymers I've got lists what I've done as the appropriate test for KZ440
>'78-'83. It doesn't explicitly say its the same part, but I can hope.
>
>So I think I'm just about done! I'm going to try and get into the City
>sometime this coming week to pick up the R/R, and install it. If all goes
>well, you'll see one more post from me on this topic saying my bike is happy
>again! Maybe I shouldn't jinx it like this, but I like to tempt fate.
whole wreck away in the trunk of a friends car and throw it in the
bushes behind your house: You'll save a fortune in spare parts with a
whole bike to strip.
Ben Hartshorne
It's been a while since I've posted any updates here. This is because I
have been waiting for a new regulator/rectifier in the mail. After all
the conversations here, I (with the help of all of you) nailed down the
problem to the regulator. I went to the bikeyardsf (the Bike Yard in San
Francisco -- neat place!), as they had some junk bikes advertized. They
had an entire box of regulators I could choose from, but I couldn't find
one that was the sam'e model as the regulator on my bike. Instead, I
bought one from www.electrexusa.com. They had a good selection (you can
search by model and year, they've got just about every regulator you
could ever want!) at about 1/2 - 1/3 the price of the Kawasaki dealer.
With shipping and everything, my new regulator came out to about $120
instead of $350 or so.
So I got the new regulator in the mail, and ... I couldn't get the old
one off the brace holding it onto the bike. I took off the entire brace
instead. But then I realized that it wouldn't have made a difference, as
the new regulator is significantly bigger than the old one, and wouldn't
have fit on the brace anyways. I have cable-tied it to my frame. The
only downside is that now the neat LTD plastic cover doesn't fit on the
left side. I'll have to play with it later to see where I can affix the
new regaltor so I can get the cover back on.
I repeated the same test I had to determine that it was a problem with my
charging system in the first place -- check the voltage across the
battery at idle and at 4000 RPM. At idle, the voltage across my battery
rose, but at 4000 RPM the battery the voltage dropped. I was floored! I
had traced the problem to the regulator, it being the last piece in
between the engine and the battery. The voltage across the inputs to the
regulator are 30VAC at idle, and 80VAC at 4000 RPM. But the battery
didn't seem to be registering the higher voltage.
I called the people at ElectrexUSA, and asked them how I could test to
see if the new regulator they had sent me was defective, given that my
multimeter couldn't measure low enough resistances to perform the tests
is my Clymer's manual. The test he described was beautiful in its
simplicity and effectiveness. Borrow a battery from a friend. Connect
negative to ground on your bike. Connect the output of the regulator to
positive on the spare battery instead of the bike's battery. This allows
the bike to run off its own battery, while charging the spare battery.
Doing this will give you a much more accurate reading on the output of
the regulator, since the engine isn't drawing power at the same time as
it's charging the battery.
With the bike off, the voltage across the new battery was 12.3v.
With the new regulator, at idle, the voltage was 13.7v.
With the new regulator, at 4000RPM, the voltage was 13.6. eh?
I'm confused. Why does the voltage across the new battery drop at high
voltage instead of rising? Regardless though, it IS charging the
battery! So to a certain extent, my problem has been solved. Still a
little nervous though, I decided to put it to the real test. Through all
this testing, my battery had lost some of its charge. It was down to
11.92v (when off). I connected everything up right, and rode around for
30 minutes or so. (Oh, what a wonderful feeling!) At the end, my
battery (with the bike off) read 12.29v! So it is receiving a charge,
regardless of what my tests tell me.
Out of curiosity, I wanted to see what the old regulator did in this test
environment I had set up.
With the bike off, voltage across the new battery was 12.3v.
with the old regulator, at idle, the voltage was 15v
with the old regulator, at 4000RPM, the voltage was 17.4v.
This definately sounds like a problem. There's a paragraph entitled "Voltage
Regulator Performance Test" in my Clymers manual that says "Start the
engine and let it idle; inclease engine speed until the voltage going to
the battery reaches 14.0-15.0 volts. At this ponit, the voltage
regulator must divert the current to ground. If this does not happen,
the voltage regulator must be replaced." So it seems that the way in
which my old regulator burnt out was to let too much juice through.
But now I'm confused. The new regulator never reaches even close to 15
volts, and drops voltage as the engine speed increases, and yet charges
the battery. The old regulator gave the battery too much juice, and yet
drained the battery. Go figure!
The end result that I'm hanging on to though, is that after 30 minutes
of riding around town, the voltage across my battery with no load was
higher than it was when I started. This can only be a good thing. So
now I'm just going to ride around for a few days, and check the voltage
again later. After standing for a few hours, the voltage is down to
12.03 from 12.29. That's still higher than when I started.
So, that's my story. Many thanks to all of you that have weathered
through this whole ordeal with me. It's been quite an experience!
-ben
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ben Hartshorne
no....@no.spam
<snip>
>But now I'm confused. The new regulator never reaches even close to 15
>volts, and drops voltage as the engine speed increases, and yet charges
>the battery. The old regulator gave the battery too much juice, and yet
>drained the battery. Go figure!
If the reg/rec unit was malfunctioning (diodes in the rectifier bridge
breaking down) then it could have been letting AC ripples through the
regulator. The high voltages observed could have been the peaks of the
AC ripples on the DC carrier you were reading (meter being set to DC and
all...).
>The end result that I'm hanging on to though, is that after 30 minutes
>of riding around town, the voltage across my battery with no load was
>higher than it was when I started. This can only be a good thing. So
>now I'm just going to ride around for a few days, and check the voltage
>again later. After standing for a few hours, the voltage is down to
>12.03 from 12.29. That's still higher than when I started.
Now buy a trickle charger for those weeks when you won't be riding.
Your bike will work better with a fully charged battery (12.65v) anyway.
>So, that's my story. Many thanks to all of you that have weathered
>through this whole ordeal with me. It's been quite an experience!
Beautiful write up Ben. Damn good trick with the second battery too.
Benjamin Hartshorne
I spoke too soon. After work today I went up to the bank and then
over to my friend's house, and I died half way there. I thought maybe
I was just running out of gas -- switched to reserve. I got another 2
blocks, and died again. I gave up and called my friend and he drove
me home.
45 minutes later, I got a ride back over there and rode my bike home.
I'm pretty sure I've got enough gas, though I havn't actually measured
it. I looked inside and could see plenty sloshing around. Besides, I
made it all the way home (about a 10 minute drive) without trouble.
I'd think maybe it was something having to do with temperature, but it
was not exactly warm out, and I only rode it for 20 minutes or so
after work to get to where I was.
One of the cable ties holding on my new regulator has broken off, but
other than that, everythingc looks fine. All the connectors seem to
be as they should.
So I'm very sad to say it, but I think I give up. I have been beaten
by my bike. The only thing I could think to do would be to completely
take apart, clean, and put back together the carbeurator and engine.
I don't think I'm up for that task; not without a real shop and
someone with experience.
This leaves me with two mutually exclusive questions:
1) Are there any good used-bike shops in the Berkeley CA USA area that
you know of? The local kawasaki dealer told me they won't touch it
during the summer, and only maybe during the winter.
2) Should I just go buy a new bike instead? The whole purpose of this
bike was to learn to ride so I wouldn't drop a shiny new one and
scratch it all up. I think I have my balance more or less down enough
so I won't drop anything now, so my main mission is accomplished.
I saw in the store a really nice Honda, the Interceptor, and I like
Yamaha because they've got such a cool logo. ;)
On top of being frustrated, it's really rotten timing, too. I take my
safety course next week, so in two weeks I'll actually have a license
instead of just a permit. And I won't have anything to ride!
Dammit.
-ben
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ben Hartshorne
r_kleinschmidt
> ::sigh::
>
> I spoke too soon. After work today I went up to the bank and then
> over to my friend's house, and I died half way there. I thought maybe
> I was just running out of gas -- switched to reserve. I got another 2
> blocks, and died again. I gave up and called my friend and he drove
> me home.
>
> 45 minutes later, I got a ride back over there and rode my bike home.
> I'm pretty sure I've got enough gas, though I havn't actually measured
> it. I looked inside and could see plenty sloshing around. Besides, I
> made it all the way home (about a 10 minute drive) without trouble.
> I'd think maybe it was something having to do with temperature, but it
> was not exactly warm out, and I only rode it for 20 minutes or so
> after work to get to where I was.
>
> One of the cable ties holding on my new regulator has broken off, but
> other than that, everythingc looks fine. All the connectors seem to
> be as they should.
>
>
> So I'm very sad to say it, but I think I give up. I have been beaten
> by my bike. The only thing I could think to do would be to completely
> take apart, clean, and put back together the carbeurator and engine.
> I don't think I'm up for that task; not without a real shop and
> someone with experience.
Before you give it up completely, you might try looking at the
filter screen and vent holes in your tank. If either the screen
or vent hole is clogged, this can cause an engine to die from
fuel starvation then miraculously recover again.
On most older bikes, you've got an on/off gas valve at the bottom
of the tank. This screws into the tank and has a fine wire screen
to filter out crud from the tank. It's pretty easy to unscrew
the petcock valve from the tank and check the screen. While you're
at it, it wouldn't hurt to drain the tank and refill with new gas.
If there's a vent problem, you'd be able to tell because the
bike would run fine with the gas cap slightly loose, but would
crap out every few minutes with the gas cap closed tight.
They're both simple things to check, and you ought to give 'em
a shot before you surrender.
Good luck.
no....@no.spam
>So I'm very sad to say it, but I think I give up. I have been beaten
>by my bike. The only thing I could think to do would be to completely
>take apart, clean, and put back together the carbeurator and engine.
>I don't think I'm up for that task; not without a real shop and
>someone with experience.
good training facility, your bike and front yard are your classroom.
>This leaves me with two mutually exclusive questions:
>
>1) Are there any good used-bike shops in the Berkeley CA USA area that
>you know of? The local kawasaki dealer told me they won't touch it
>during the summer, and only maybe during the winter.
(Of course, with a newer bike they have you by the short and curlies,
because you have to have it serviced by an approved mechanic to retain
warranty or maintain second hand value (don't try selling a two year old
bike without a service history).)
>2) Should I just go buy a new bike instead? The whole purpose of this
>bike was to learn to ride so I wouldn't drop a shiny new one and
>scratch it all up. I think I have my balance more or less down enough
>so I won't drop anything now, so my main mission is accomplished.
(You can start polishing it now.)
>I saw in the store a really nice Honda, the Interceptor, and I like
>Yamaha because they've got such a cool logo. ;)
>On top of being frustrated, it's really rotten timing, too. I take my
>safety course next week, so in two weeks I'll actually have a license
>instead of just a permit. And I won't have anything to ride!
take it on the Kwak, then there are a whole lot of other reasons why
bikes stop running that we havn't covered yet, and two weeks to check
them in...
>Dammit.
Come on, you knew it was a dog!
My mail client has wiped all the old posts, but I recall that the engine
mechanicals were OK, and you've sorted the charging system (a
prerequisite for igniton system diagnostics), so let me go and Google
the thread to refresh the grey matter and I'll have a think about what
to do next.
BykrDan
Say, just another thought - I notice you fastened the regulator to the frame
with cable ties; there is a black wire going to the negative ground on the
battery, right? These units have to be grounded to dump off extra current,
and some of them just rely on being bolted to the frame for grounding...
Dan.
> Dammit.
>
>
> -ben
What a coincidence: my son's name is "Dammit, Ben!"
"Benjamin Hartshorne" <kz...@green.hartshorne.net> wrote in message
news:ajf9j6$22kv$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
Benjamin Hartshorne
> <snip>
>>So I'm very sad to say it, but I think I give up. I have been beaten
>>by my bike. The only thing I could think to do would be to completely
>>take apart, clean, and put back together the carbeurator and engine.
>>I don't think I'm up for that task; not without a real shop and
>>someone with experience.
> Arse. Everyone has to learn somewhere, and unless you have access to a
> good training facility, your bike and front yard are your classroom.
There's also the question of whether it's worth it to learn. Considering that
the next bike I get probably won't even have a carbeurator... You get the
picture. I'm planning on pondering this particular point this weekend, as I'm
sitting by a lake side sunning. :)
>>I saw in the store a really nice Honda, the Interceptor, and I like
>>Yamaha because they've got such a cool logo. ;)
> No comment.
Comon! Three tuning forks?! How much cooler can you get?! (I'm also a
musician... ;)
>>On top of being frustrated, it's really rotten timing, too. I take my
>>safety course next week, so in two weeks I'll actually have a license
>>instead of just a permit. And I won't have anything to ride!
> If they'll rent you a bike for your test, no worries. If you have to
> take it on the Kwak, then there are a whole lot of other reasons why
> bikes stop running that we havn't covered yet, and two weeks to check
> them in...
I really don't think I have enough money to buy a new bike right now, so I
expect this'll be what happens.
Allright. I'm game.
>>Dammit.
> Come on, you knew it was a dog!
Yeah, I did. I take full responsibility.
> My mail client has wiped all the old posts, but I recall that the engine
> mechanicals were OK, and you've sorted the charging system (a
> prerequisite for igniton system diagnostics), so let me go and Google
> the thread to refresh the grey matter and I'll have a think about what
> to do next.
Awesome. Take your time, I'm heading into the mountains for my birthday and
won't really be able to do anything interesting until next weekend.
Thanks! Your enthusiasm for elusive problems is inspiring.
-ben
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ben Hartshorne
Benjamin Hartshorne
> Ben -
> Say, just another thought - I notice you fastened the regulator to the frame
> with cable ties; there is a black wire going to the negative ground on the
> battery, right? These units have to be grounded to dump off extra current,
> and some of them just rely on being bolted to the frame for grounding...
Yeah, the regulator has four cables -- two yellow (alternator in), one black
(ground), and one white / red (output to battery positive).
-ben
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ben Hartshorne
Benjamin Hartshorne
> Benjamin Hartshorne <kz...@green.hartshorne.net> wrote in message news:<ajf9j6$22kv$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>...
>> ::sigh::
>>
>> I spoke too soon. After work today I went up to the bank and then
>> over to my friend's house, and I died half way there. I thought maybe
> Before you give it up completely, you might try looking at the
> filter screen and vent holes in your tank. If either the screen
> or vent hole is clogged, this can cause an engine to die from
> fuel starvation then miraculously recover again.
The first thing I did when I began this escapade was take off my tank and clean
it. I also took apart and cleaned the petcock. The screen is intact and
clean. I do see a touch of a leak around the petcock somewhere (and I suppose
that might affect the vacuum intake, but it doesn't seem like that would be a
problem that would recover after a period of inactivity).
> On most older bikes, you've got an on/off gas valve at the bottom
> of the tank. This screws into the tank and has a fine wire screen
Actually, mine's got normal, reserve, and prime settings. There is no off.
The thing has a vacuum pump operation, so it requires a vacuum to pull fuel
from the tank on either normal or reserve. On the prime setting, the valve is
just open. (this is useful for draining the tank.)
> If there's a vent problem, you'd be able to tell because the
> bike would run fine with the gas cap slightly loose, but would
> crap out every few minutes with the gas cap closed tight.
I've never heard the whooshing sound of air moving into a negative pressure
container (like you get in your waterbottle after coming down from the
mountains) so I doubt this is the problem. Also, when I was cleaning my tank,
I had some kerosene (my solvent) leak out through the tank cap when the tank
was upsidown. It can't be a terribly good seal... ;)
> They're both simple things to check, and you ought to give 'em
> a shot before you surrender.
Thakns for the suggestions. Keep 'em coming! I'll be you eyes and ears, so
long as you keep up your side of the bargain and be my brain. ;)
> Good luck.
thanks,
-ben
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ben Hartshorne
Josh Barbara
cleaner and spray everything. Put the bowls back and flush the fuel lines.
Pull the tap out of the tank and make sure its gunk catchin thing is clean
and if there are any fuel filters between the fuel and the carbs...remove
and or replace. See how you go.
Cheers,
Josh
--
========================================
Remove _baffles_ to reply by email.
Josh Barbara
ICQ: 34082900
MSN: DoinitS...@hotmail.com
email: doinitsideways(at)ozemail(dot)com(dot)au
========================================
"Benjamin Hartshorne" <kz...@green.hartshorne.net> wrote in message
news:ajf9j6$22kv$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
Josh Barbara
prime.??
Josh
--
========================================
Remove _baffles_ to reply by email.
Josh Barbara
ICQ: 34082900
MSN: DoinitS...@hotmail.com
email: doinitsideways(at)ozemail(dot)com(dot)au
========================================
"Josh Barbara" <doinitsidew...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:hAi79.13576$Cq.5...@ozemail.com.au...
Benjamin Hartshorne
> Read a previous post... does the problem still occur with the petcock on
> prime.??
I'm having trouble reproducing the problem reliably. Yesterday, I went out for
a ride, but was unable to get the bike to stall. I hit hills, turns, stopped,
started, let it sit, etc., but was unable to recreate my problem over a 45
minute ride. :(
As I recall, once the problem occurs, setting the petcock to prime does not
solve it, but I'm not sure if it occors on prime or not. It's kinda hard to
convince myself to go out and try to create it since if I'm successful, I'm
stuck where I am and need to beg a friend for a ride... ;) But I'll keep
trying.
Any suggestions on how to more reliably recreate the problem based on certain
guesses as to the source?
A more detailed description of what happens follows in a later post.
-ben
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ben Hartshorne
Benjamin Hartshorne
My problem manifests itself in two ways (primarily). First, I'll be riding along, and suddenly I start slowing down. I pull the throttle, but nothing happens. It still sounds like the engine is turning over (and I'm in gear). As soon as I pull in the clutch or come to a stop, the engine cuts off. It often will not restart for a while. The second way in which this problem presents itself is that, when I come to a stop, the engine will stall as soon as I stop (yes, my clutch is in), and will not restar
t. I think the first is more common at the moment.
After an hour or so of rest, the engine restarts just fine, and will run for a while (usually enough to get me home from wherever I may be in Berkeley CA USA).
The screen on the fuel intake was clean when I pulled it out last month. I took apart the petcock, and the vacuum may not be as good as before I took it apart; it took quite a bit of effort to get it apart. I did put it back together correctly, but I"m not positive about the quality of the seals. They looked fine, but it seemed to go together easier than taking it apart.
I havn't taken the carbs apart yet; I was scared off that action by my neighbor telling me that it's generally the final exam in a shop class to take apart a carbeurator. Now that a classmate of mine has told me I should be able to take them apart, clean them, and put them back together again in a day or less, I may try next weekend. Dunno yet.
The other thing that's not quite right is that when the bike is idling (especially when just starting up) the engine coughs. As it's idling (and mostly warm), it will cough once a second or so. After riding a while, it's not so bad. But it takes longer than I would expect to warm up and idle smoothly.
-ben
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ben Hartshorne
no....@no.spam
>My problem manifests itself in two ways (primarily). First, I'll be riding
>along, and suddenly I start slowing down. I pull the throttle, but nothing
>happens. It still sounds like the engine is turning over (and I'm in gear). As
>soon as I pull in the clutch or come to a stop, the engine cuts off. It often
>will not restart for a while.
Next time it happens, try these two checks:
Quickly open the drain screw on one of the carburettor float bowls, and
see if there is an appreciable amount of fuel spilling onto your hot
crankcase. Oops, should have fitted a drain tube.
When you think it's safe to approach the bike again, pull off each of
the spark plug caps in turn, fit a spare plug, earthed against the head
and spin the engine, looking for a fat blue spark on each cylinder.
These two roadside checks should confirm fuel and ignition are OK, but
there's a danger it could solve the whole bike problem "in a flash".
The fuel level can be checked properly with clear plastic tube: the
manual details the correct procedure. The floats in the carburettor
have to be at the correct height to maintain fuel level in the float
bowl at the optimum level. Too low and you (temporarily) run out of
fuel in one cylinder, too high and the engine surges or floods.
> The second way in which this problem presents
>itself is that, when I come to a stop, the engine will stall as soon as I stop
>(yes, my clutch is in), and will not restar
>t.
Hmm. Clutch release out of adjustment (worse when hot?) OR bike idle
speed too low or uneven.
Clutch release adjustment is a read-the-manual operation, but can be
done with a screwdriver and a sidecover on the engine. It is not clutch
cable adjustment, but a compensation for clutch plate wear to ensure
full engagement and disengagement.
Bike idle speed, see bottom.
>After an hour or so of rest, the engine restarts just fine, and will run for a
>while (usually enough to get me home from wherever I may be in Berkeley CA USA).
I find that if my bike doesn't fire on the second button, I might as
well wait a minute, as anything more soaks the plugs, meaning a longer
wait. It helps to be precise with the choke, throttle etc.
>The screen on the fuel intake was clean when I pulled it out last month. I took
>apart the petcock, and the vacuum may not be as good as before I took it apart;
>it took quite a bit of effort to get it apart. I did put it back together
>correctly, but I"m not positive about the quality of the seals. They looked
>fine, but it seemed to go together easier than taking it apart.
Petcock rebuild kits are cheap (when you can find them). Ten quid in
UK, so fifteen of your Yankee dollars should be about right. (Of course,
with petrol costing four times as much, we're a bit more careful about
it leaking away...)
>I havn't taken the carbs apart yet; I was scared off that action by my neighbor
>telling me that it's generally the final exam in a shop class to take apart a
>carbeurator. Now that a classmate of mine has told me I should be able to take
>them apart, clean them, and put them back together again in a day or less, I may
>try next weekend. Dunno yet.
Clean (internally) your carbs. Strip 'em down and scrub 'em out.
Christ, half the ShiteOldBike threads on this newsgroup come down to
blocked idle jets, and nothing more: they are sealed behind metal
covers on US bikes, so never get touched until something goes wrong
(unlike the rest of the world, where they're the first thing to be
messed with by any wannabe "tuner")
>The other thing that's not quite right is that when the bike is idling
>(especially when just starting up) the engine coughs. As it's idling (and
>mostly warm), it will cough once a second or so. After riding a while, it's not
>so bad. But it takes longer than I would expect to warm up and idle smoothly.
Oh yes... once you've cleaned the idle circuit in the carbs, you'll
have to readjust whatever screwed up settings the previous owner used to
keep the bike running. Balancing your two carburettors (so each
provides the same fuel/air mix to the cylinders) should be the final
part of reassembly. It's a piece of piss, (to use the vernacular) but
you will need a vacuum gauge or two. I use nasty cheap Taiwanese ones
and they work fine.
Reb
enough fuel/air mix through the idle circuit in the carb. I also replaced
the O-Ring on the intake manifold that seals to the head. There did appear
to be leakage there as well. Both the things I fixed will cause the problem
you are having. Other possibilities may include a plugged gas tank cap vent,
you can check this by lossening the cap and listening for a whoosh sound
after the bike has run for a while. This vaccumm can prevent the idle
circuit from working properly. Just curious, is you idle setting in a high
position?
REb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Benjamin Hartshorne" <kz...@green.hartshorne.net>
Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles.tech
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 12:17 AM
Subject: Re: '82 KZ440 engine running / starting issues
Benjamin Hartshorne
thanks for the comments. Sorry for the delayed response; I've been
kinda wrapped up in work and unable to play with my bike much. Comments
inline below. BTW, would you mind if I posted them to the newsgroup
so all can benefit?
On Sun, Aug 25, 2002 at 12:58:28PM -0500, Reb wrote:
> Had pretty much the same problem on my 82 Suzuki SP250. The idle circuit in
> the carb was mostly plugged and when the engine warmed up it would not pull
> enough fuel/air mix through the idle circuit in the carb. I also replaced
This sounds like a possibility I'll have to look into. I've been
threatening to take apart and clean the carb, but I'm scared of it.
Besides, I think it'll take all day and I havn't had a full free day in
6 weeks. ;)
> the O-Ring on the intake manifold that seals to the head. There did appear
> to be leakage there as well.
I get a little leakage around one of the spark plugs, and in quite a
number of other places, but at the moment I still want to take apart as
little as possible for fear of breaking something (like a screw or bolt)
that would require serious effort (and new parts) to fix. I'm all about
cleaning what's there but I don't want to buy much at the moment.
> Both the things I fixed will cause the problem
> you are having. Other possibilities may include a plugged gas tank cap vent,
> you can check this by lossening the cap and listening for a whoosh sound
> after the bike has run for a while. This vaccumm can prevent the idle
> circuit from working properly.
No whooshing sound. The bike also does not restart after opening the
tank (which would equalize the pressure). I'm pretty sure this isn't
the problem. It's been suggested so many times though that I suppose I
should do something to double check it.
If this is a problem, would the following test show it?
1) take off the tank
2) seal the cap
3) set the petcock to prime
result A) the flow of gas out of the petcock is smooth --> seal in the
tank cap allows air flow
result B) the flow of gas out of the petcock gurgles (like when you hold
a bottle of water upsidown) --> the tank seal is too tight, and air must
come in through the petcock to equalize the pressure
result C) the flow of gas out of the tank stops after a short while -->
the seal is too tight and the surface tension of the gas is greater than
the force of gravity on it, so no gas flows (similar to when you put
your finger over a straw in a soda and pick up a strawful of liquid).
> Just curious, is you idle setting in a high
> position?
Idle when warm is just above 1000RPM.
-ben
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ben Hartshorne
Reb
The question on the idle position was reall to ask where physically the idle
screw was set. If it were in a position of maximum idle setting to get a
idle, then it would suggest that the idle circuit is restricted and you are
starting to rely on the main fuel circuit for idle, which would give you a
very uncontrolled and varying idle speed. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.
Here is why I ask. When I purchased my bike the idle screw was screwed all
the way in and resulted in a varying idle speed. When I cleared the idle
circuit I noticed I had to set the idle screw in a much lower idle speed
position to achieve a normal idle speed. This was because the fuel flow was
normal and metered for idle speed. I was thinking that the position of the
idle screw may give you a clue to your problem
Reb
Benjamin Hartshorne
> Hello again Ben. I've had a read through the old posts & this one.
>>My problem manifests itself in two ways (primarily). First, I'll be riding
>>along, and suddenly I start slowing down. I pull the throttle, but nothing
>>happens. It still sounds like the engine is turning over (and I'm in gear). As
>>soon as I pull in the clutch or come to a stop, the engine cuts off. It often
>>will not restart for a while.
>
> Fuel running dry from float bowls during use, or some ignition problem.
> Next time it happens, try these two checks:
>
> Quickly open the drain screw on one of the carburettor float bowls, and
> see if there is an appreciable amount of fuel spilling onto your hot
> crankcase. Oops, should have fitted a drain tube.
> When you think it's safe to approach the bike again, pull off each of
> the spark plug caps in turn, fit a spare plug, earthed against the head
> and spin the engine, looking for a fat blue spark on each cylinder.
>
> These two roadside checks should confirm fuel and ignition are OK, but
> there's a danger it could solve the whole bike problem "in a flash".
Well, I have managed to stay away from the flashy solution... ;) I rode around
yesterday, and managed to die several times. (I only had the equipment to run
the above tests once though.)
I drained the carb floats, and there was just about 50ml of gas in each.
Definately not dry. I didn't have a spare plug, but I did have a plug removal
tool, so I unscrewed one of my spark plugs and held it against a nice solid
metal looking thing. It got a spark, but I wouldn't exactly call it "fat."
BTW, all three times I died this time around was by coming to a stop and
having the engine just stop completely, instead of having it completely lose
power.
> The fuel level can be checked properly with clear plastic tube: the
> manual details the correct procedure. The floats in the carburettor
> have to be at the correct height to maintain fuel level in the float
> bowl at the optimum level. Too low and you (temporarily) run out of
> fuel in one cylinder, too high and the engine surges or floods.
I just drained the fuel to see what was in there rather than doing the whole
tube thing. Since the engine wasn't exactly surging (but dying), I figured it
wasn't flooded. The presence of so much gas seems to indicate that the level
in the carbs is ok.
>> The second way in which this problem presents
>>itself is that, when I come to a stop, the engine will stall as soon as I stop
>>(yes, my clutch is in), and will not restar
>>t.
> Hmm. Clutch release out of adjustment (worse when hot?) OR bike idle
> speed too low or uneven.
> Clutch release adjustment is a read-the-manual operation, but can be
> done with a screwdriver and a sidecover on the engine. It is not clutch
> cable adjustment, but a compensation for clutch plate wear to ensure
> full engagement and disengagement.
When it stops as I come to a stop, there's no jump to stall like there is when
you forget to pull in the clutch while you are stopping. It's very smooth, and
I usually have the clutch in for a while before actually stopping motion. I
suppose it's possible that the clutch is only partially engaged so that as the
bike slows down, there's enough friction to cause the low idling engine to stop
completely, but not enough force to cause the bike to jump like it does when
the clutch is all the way out.
But if this was the problem, how come it wouldn't restart (I shift into neutral
when starting the bike)?
Yes, it does seem to happen more often when warm. i.e. it happens more often in the afternoon and evening than morning, but that may just be an artifact of the amount of time I ride in the morning vs. afternoon / evening. But of the last three times it's died, once was during my lunch break (that _sucked!_) and twice was after work. All three after going up a (very gentle) hill for a while.
> Bike idle speed, see bottom.
>>After an hour or so of rest, the engine restarts just fine, and will run for a
>>while (usually enough to get me home from wherever I may be in Berkeley CA USA).
> I find that if my bike doesn't fire on the second button, I might as
> well wait a minute, as anything more soaks the plugs, meaning a longer
> wait. It helps to be precise with the choke, throttle etc.
>>The screen on the fuel intake was clean when I pulled it out last month. I took
>>apart the petcock, and the vacuum may not be as good as before I took it apart;
>>it took quite a bit of effort to get it apart. I did put it back together
>>correctly, but I"m not positive about the quality of the seals. They looked
>>fine, but it seemed to go together easier than taking it apart.
> Petcock rebuild kits are cheap (when you can find them). Ten quid in
> UK, so fifteen of your Yankee dollars should be about right. (Of course,
> with petrol costing four times as much, we're a bit more careful about
> it leaking away...)
>>I havn't taken the carbs apart yet; I was scared off that action by my neighbor
>>telling me that it's generally the final exam in a shop class to take apart a
>>carbeurator. Now that a classmate of mine has told me I should be able to take
>>them apart, clean them, and put them back together again in a day or less, I may
>>try next weekend. Dunno yet.
> Clean (internally) your carbs. Strip 'em down and scrub 'em out.
This saturday is my day. I'm going to bite the bullet and take the thing
apart. I bought a can of spray-on carb cleaner (I think the stuff is desigend
to be used without taking the carb apart, but I figure it will work anyways)
and a brass wire brush for the scrubbing.
> Christ, half the ShiteOldBike threads on this newsgroup come down to
> blocked idle jets, and nothing more: they are sealed behind metal
> covers on US bikes, so never get touched until something goes wrong
> (unlike the rest of the world, where they're the first thing to be
> messed with by any wannabe "tuner")
>>The other thing that's not quite right is that when the bike is idling
>>(especially when just starting up) the engine coughs. As it's idling (and
>>mostly warm), it will cough once a second or so. After riding a while, it's not
>>so bad. But it takes longer than I would expect to warm up and idle smoothly.
> Oh yes... once you've cleaned the idle circuit in the carbs, you'll
> have to readjust whatever screwed up settings the previous owner used to
> keep the bike running. Balancing your two carburettors (so each
> provides the same fuel/air mix to the cylinders) should be the final
> part of reassembly. It's a piece of piss, (to use the vernacular) but
> you will need a vacuum gauge or two. I use nasty cheap Taiwanese ones
> and they work fine.
I'll have to try and find a set of these. I don't have them at the moment.
-ben
p.s. I have two new theories as to the cause of my problems. All three of the
recent times it died have something in common -- my bike was parked next to a
beautiful Suzuki SV650S during the 4-8 hours before it died. I think my bike
has an inferioriy complex. It's just sitting there next to this beautiful
piece of machinery, and can't hold it together. Feeling so intimidated by the
power and smooth grace of the SV, it gets nervous and can't keep a smooth gas
flow going.
My other theory involves the last time it died. I went up to UC Berkeley to
pick up my diploma (I just graduated! :), and there's currently a strike going
on. As soon as I got near the picket line, my bike up and quit. Looks like it
supports the strike! ;P
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ben Hartshorne
Benjamin Hartshorne
> Just curious, is you idle setting in a high position?
I think the idle setting is supposed to be factory sealed on this bike. But
there is a screw in the middle of the carbs that looks like it serves as the
low end for the throttle screw. I can't get my fingers to it to see what the
play's like in either direction, but it doesn't really look like it's maxed out
one way or the other.
-ben
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ben Hartshorne
no....@no.spam
>yesterday, and managed to die several times. (I only had the equipment to run
>the above tests once though.)
>
>I drained the carb floats, and there was just about 50ml of gas in each.
>Definately not dry. I didn't have a spare plug, but I did have a plug removal
>tool, so I unscrewed one of my spark plugs and held it against a nice solid
>metal looking thing. It got a spark, but I wouldn't exactly call it "fat."
>
>BTW, all three times I died this time around was by coming to a stop and
>having the engine just stop completely, instead of having it completely lose
>power.
like you have dicky clutch syndrome. Setting your clutch release could
be worthwhile: Tell me what sort of clutch adjustment cover you have on
the engine sprocket cover (is it round screw in or rectangular with two
screws) and I'll talk you through it. Once you've finished the carbs.
(With all this diagnostic work going on you must be getting a bit
frustrated, but it's worth learning which tests and cures to apply to
which symptom. The solution is easy - it's the problem that's the
difficult bit.)
>I just drained the fuel to see what was in there rather than doing the whole
>tube thing. Since the engine wasn't exactly surging (but dying), I figured it
>wasn't flooded. The presence of so much gas seems to indicate that the level
>in the carbs is ok.
Good, we can assume that the float valves open when they need to. One
less thing to check when you clean your carbs out. (Didn't say they
closed when they should though, that's another test. The clear tube
thing fulfils both tests (and checks level) in one go).
>
>When it stops as I come to a stop, there's no jump to stall like there is when
>you forget to pull in the clutch while you are stopping. It's very smooth, and
>I usually have the clutch in for a while before actually stopping motion. I
>suppose it's possible that the clutch is only partially engaged so that as the
>bike slows down, there's enough friction to cause the low idling engine to stop
>completely, but not enough force to cause the bike to jump like it does when
>the clutch is all the way out.
That's about the sum of it, if it is clutch drag:
The clutch doesn't fully disengage when cable is pulled, so the "drag"
from the (static) clutch on the engine can stall the engine
If the idle jets are gummed up, and the previous owner has raised the
throttle stop screw (that big thumbwheel between the carbs you noticed
in another post) to compensate, then this problem can be exaberated:
A bike running only main jets will have a much rougher idle than one
with pilot and main jets. If your Idle (pilot) jets are blocked then
you are only running on main jet (with the throttle stop raised to hold
an idle speed).
>But if this was the problem, how come it wouldn't restart (I shift into neutral
>when starting the bike)?
Hey, if you really do have a blocked idle jet, then all bets are off.
Trying to start a hot engine on main jets alone isn't easy.
>This saturday is my day. I'm going to bite the bullet and take the thing
>apart. I bought a can of spray-on carb cleaner (I think the stuff is desigend
>to be used without taking the carb apart, but I figure it will work anyways)
>and a brass wire brush for the scrubbing.
Remove and clean the pilot jets. You want to see blue sky through 'em.
It's a minor point, but a stainless steel wire brush (not mild steel)
would be better for restoring alloy. Brass fragments can embed in the
alloy and develop little pits of corrosion (all through the magic of
electrochemistry).
Having said that, if you're just scrubbing out the inside of the float
chambers, who cares? I use old toothbrushes for most cleaning work.
It might look like a nasty job (it is, but mostly due to the chemicals),
but it will transform your bike. Just post if you hit any problems.
Benjamin Hartshorne
my carbeurator works! It's really enlightning, seeing it from the inside.
I took most of it apart, until I had access to just about all the pieces. I
didn't actually remove the jets from the casing, I jsut cleaned them in place.
I sprayed the whole thing down, and mostly just wiped off the gunk. It was
actually really clean looking inside. While I did clean a bunch out, it really
didn't seem excessively dirty. None of the jets seemed clogged. Just to clean
them somemore for good measure, I sprayed carb cleaner at them, then sprayed
canned air at them to force the carb cleaner through the jets. It seemed to
work well (spraying out the other end).
It was actually kinda fun.
After putting everything back together, there were no pieces left over... ;)
The bike started up and ran! I went around town for a while, and then ...
poof. I am riding up University, pull in the clutch for a moment (going 25 or
so) to downshift, and the engine drops dead as a doornail. I coast to a stop
and go get a watermelon orchata thingy.
About half an hour later, I come out and it starts up. I get two blocks up to
Sacramento, and as I'm pulling into the left turn lane, I lose all power and
the engine stops as soon as I pull in the clutch. I push the bike off the road
and wheel it home. Unfortunately, I didn't have the equipment with me to test
and see if there was any gas in the carbs.
::sigh::
I don't quite understand the procedure for testing the float level in the
carbs.
There are three screws holding on the plate from which the gear shift lever
protrudes. Is this the one you were asking about (3 or 4 screw configuration)?
The idle screw (big thing between the carbs that pushes on the throttle, not
thing inside the carbs that is sealed in US models) was screwed all the way
out. After cleaning the carbs I screwed it in a little more because the thing
wouldn't idle.
I think the hardest part of the whole cleaning bit was getting the carbeurator
off the bike. Once it was disconnected, taking it apart and cleaning it was
pretty simple.
-ben
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ben Hartshorne
The Older Gentleman
> About half an hour later, I come out and it starts up. I get two blocks up to
> Sacramento, and as I'm pulling into the left turn lane, I lose all power and
> the engine stops as soon as I pull in the clutch.
This sounds suspiciously like a fuel feed problem - either floats or a
dodgy fuel tap, which is a vacuum tap on the 440, IIRC. Set it to the
"Prime" position and try again.
--
XJ900S 750SS XS500 CB400F Z400 BOF#30 GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1
WUSS#5 YTC#3 IHABWTJ#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 OSOS#1
www.btinternet.com/~Chateau.Murray/homepage2.html
Benjamin Hartshorne
> Benjamin Hartshorne <kz...@green.hartshorne.net> wrote:
>> About half an hour later, I come out and it starts up. I get two blocks up to
>> Sacramento, and as I'm pulling into the left turn lane, I lose all power and
>> the engine stops as soon as I pull in the clutch.
> This sounds suspiciously like a fuel feed problem - either floats or a
> dodgy fuel tap, which is a vacuum tap on the 440, IIRC. Set it to the
> "Prime" position and try again.
Each time I try and start it up, I fiddle with the fuel a bit if it doesn't
start. See previous posts on the results of a dry carb check (although
admitedly, that was when I died at a stoplight instead of while riding. I
intend to check for dry carbs again if I can repeat my die-while-riding
tomorrow).
-ben
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ben Hartshorne
ReAssembler
"Benjamin Hartshorne" <b...@hal.rescomp.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:aksmbh$2nkb$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
cable. FWIW,
ReAssembler
The Older Gentleman
> Hi, Ben, I had a die-while-ride problem once that was a loose battery
> cable. FWIW,
Heh. Ditto. That's a thought - that Z440 hasn't got one of those *bloody
awful* Kawasaki ignition cut-outs on the sidestand, has it? Because they
*always* go wrong.
no....@no.spam
>> cable. FWIW,
>
>Heh. Ditto. That's a thought - that Z440 hasn't got one of those *bloody
>awful* Kawasaki ignition cut-outs on the sidestand, has it? Because they
>*always* go wrong.
>
Californian) bikes are crippled with. A whole heap of potential
problems that I'll never have a clue about, thank God.
john
anyways. This is the beauty of these old jap bikes is that they are
entirely disposable and available for literally nearly nothing. I wouldnt
evemn bother to delve too deeply into it and certainly wouldnt invest any
more than maybe 20 bucks into the thing. Just buy another $200.00 junk
heap, but make sure you get one that runs. hell that 440...i wouldn't even
pick it up if it fell over.
"Reb" <r...@green.hartshorne.net> wrote in message
news:akjrf7$crd$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
john
behavior sort of reminds me of a bikes behavior when warm, if the choke has
been left on. I'm assuming you shut off the choke, but are your efforts
resulting in the butterflies opening up again? And yes a plugged idle
circuit jet is a possiblility, but that would be just as much of a problem
when the bike as cold as when it warm
to test the sidestand cut out switch..unplug the switch, and plug the one
wire of the harness into the other, effectively bypassing it.
<no....@no.spam> wrote in message
news:2MSNwAAW...@astrodome.demon.co.uk...
The Older Gentleman
> it occurs to me that an 82 kz 440 20 years later really isnt much of a bike
> anyways. This is the beauty of these old jap bikes is that they are
> entirely disposable
Up to a point, I agree. A 200 buck bike can be regarded as a throwaway
item. But the durability of some of these old bikes is astonishing, and
it is remarkably easy to keep them on the road.
--
XJ900S 750SS CB400F Z400 XS400 BOF#30 GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1
Larry
news:oCyo9.5183$zU5.6...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> at the risk of asking a silly question..is your choke shutting off? The
> behavior sort of reminds me of a bikes behavior when warm, if the choke
has
> been left on. I'm assuming you shut off the choke, but are your efforts
> resulting in the butterflies opening up again? And yes a plugged idle
> circuit jet is a possiblility, but that would be just as much of a problem
> when the bike as cold as when it warm
> to test the sidestand cut out switch..unplug the switch, and plug the one
> wire of the harness into the other, effectively bypassing it.
I might also suggest that the fuel system is developing a vacuum in the
tank. I had a 440LTD mucho years ago, and can't remember if the gas cap
required a key, or not. If so, get a second key made for the bike. When it
begins to experience fuel starvation symptoms, pop open the gas cap. If you
hear a "whoosh" and the bike begins running again, you've got a plugged
breather / vent in the fuel tank and / or cap.That vacuum slowly subsides
over time, which is why you're able to start the bike "after a while".
Experienced this problem on my Virago.
Hope this helps.
Larry
--
'86 GL1200A
'86 XT350
'84 XV700
Brain damaged dog / Retarded cat
