2-stroke oil and carbon deposits ???
Jose B. Ruivo
Is synthetic oil any better (than mineral) at reducing the carbon
deposits in a 2-stroke engine and its exaust pipes?
Thanks!
Jose B. ruivo
Jon
> deposits in a 2-stroke engine and its exaust pipes?
Absolutely, and it lubes better as well.
Kaybearjr
>> deposits in a 2-stroke engine and its exaust pipes?
Some companies are selling a product which seems to be a vegetable oil, like
canola, with a high pressure additive, maybe organic zinc, which forms a glassy
layer that protects the engine from wear, and you see the demonstrations at car
shows where the engine is running with no oil in it...
This stuff is rather expensive though, and two-stroke
riders probably need economy.
If you find a two-stroke oil that just burns to form ash which flies out the
exhaust, leaving no deposits, tell the world. I have never seen an oil that
left no deposits.
It seems like if the oil gets hot enough to burn, you couldn't expect it to
lubricate the cylinder walls...
It's really difficult to make a blanket statement about carbon build-up. I
bought a used GT-750 which had never had anything except a popular synthetic
oil used in it, and I had to decarbonize it.
The carbon was rather soft, and formed carbon stalactites in the exhaust
port...I had always used Chevron Super Red in my GT-750's. The dealer
recommended it.
The stuff smelled liked ammonia, and it would accumulate in the bottom of the
crankcase, and when I
went fast on the freeway, it would all begin to evaporate and I would create
huges clouds of smoke like a crop duster.
And the unburned Super Red would ooze out the exhaust pipe like asphalt...
My buddy who rode a GT-750 swore by Kendall 2-stroke oil.
Other friends just injected automobile oil.
Back when I was riding dirt bikes, I experimented with
diferent oils.
I experimented with petroleum-based Torco two-stroke
oil when I premixed, and I could always tell when I had enough oil in the
pre-mix by the feeling that the fuel/air mixture was just a little on the rich
side.
The engine wouldn't seem really peaky, it seemed like it had more low end power
with Torco.
Synthetic oils always seemed to make the engine "peakier" like it was running
lean and had to be run at a higher rpm to get the same performance.
I tried Francisco Lab's racing castor, and plugged up and gummed up my ports
and baffles, and I tried a synthetic called "Steen's" that turned the residual
castor into a hard shellac when it spilled on my gas tank.
So I went back to Torco petroleum-based oil.
# * 0 * #
^
Jose B. Ruivo
>Some companies are selling a product which seems to be a vegetable oil, like
>canola, with a high pressure additive, maybe organic zinc, which forms a glassy
>layer that protects the engine from wear, and you see the demonstrations at car
>shows where the engine is running with no oil in it...
I'd be interested in that . . . Any more info?
>This stuff is rather expensive though, and two-stroke
>riders probably need economy.
Actually, what I need is a motorcycle driving licence, in order to be
able to drive a 4-stroke engine motorcycle - presently, my *car*
driving licence allows me to drive motorcycles with engines only up to
50cc, which rules out 4-stroke. Either that, or wait until my country
adopts legislation other european countries have adopted already,
which allow you to drive 125cc motorcycles
>If you find a two-stroke oil that just burns to form ash which flies out the
>exhaust, leaving no deposits, tell the world. I have never seen an oil that
>left no deposits.
Good thing you mention that. I'm considering the recent Castrol Actevo
for 2 stroke engines, which the maker advertises as cleaning the
carbon deposits in the engine and the exaust pipe. Could that be the
answer to your question?
And by the way, what the difference between general 2-stroke oil, and
scooter specific 2-stroke oil? I asked the Castrol representative
where I live, and the moron just replied "It's in the sulphur ashes",
as if I were supposed to be an expert in ashes of any kind. Any better
explanations, anyone, please?
Regards,
Jose B. Ruivo
--Philip--
>bought a used GT-750 which had never had anything except a popular synthetic
>oil used in it, and I had to decarbonize it.
Kay: It would seem obvious that oil injection systems would be designed to
deliver oil at the usual 20-30:1 with the expected oil to be commonly found
mineral two stroke oil. The synthetics run MUCH leaner than that (50-70:1) and
therefor would certainly leave deposits in mufflers, exhaust ports, and around
the piston rings.
I remember running Klotz in my almost new GT380. That stuff froze the rings
to the pistons and coated the cylinder walls with a grey shellac-like deposit
in about 5,000 miles.
-Philip-
"Anything that offends common sense
will be embraced by an intellectual"
Kaybearjr
http://www.superbat.com/order1.html
They want $19.95 for a 12-oz bottle, and it's an engine treatment that you add
to the oil, a few ounces at a time.
This outfit has been talking about flying airplanes without oil and running
trucks up Pike's Peak with no oil in the crankcase.
They claim to have used it in a Monster Truck, too.
There are other similar products in national auto parts stores for about the
same price. I think one was called
Dura Lube. The active ingredient isn't teflon, it's like organic zinc that
turns to liquid glass under high temperature and pressure.
Kaybearjr
>deliver oil at the usual 20-30:1 with the expected oil to be commonly found
>mineral two stroke oil.
The clear plastic oil injection lines gave a visual indication of whether oil
was passing through them, and were probably sized for a certain amount of oil
passing through in a certain time.
I noticed air bubbles in the lines if I adjusted the pump stroke too much, so I
only adjusted it a little bit, from the engraved line, back to a punchmark if I
recall correctly. I was getting about 1000 miles per quart of Super Red. I
calculated it to be around 32 to 1 mixture.
$1.00 a quart Super Red would leave a very thin layer of wet carbon on the
pistons. Sometimes krispy kritters formed in the carbon...
My friend using $1.00 a quart Kendall GT in his GT-750 said that he adjusted
his pump all the way back, and the bike had 50K miles on it when I bought it
from him. He said he was getting 1500 miles a quart.
It still had acceptable compression. Kendall left a soft tannish-white carbon.
The previous owner of the other GT-750 I bought was
using some nationally known $2.00 a quart synthetic brand that he got from
K-Mart. The carbon it left was a light grey color, but it was soft. I ran some
combustion chamber clearner through the gas tank to free up the rings...
The GT-750 endurance racer I inherited was using a Bel-Ray synthetic that left
a white ash in the exhaust pipe. Too bad the piston left melted aluminum in the
combustion chamber. I never got a chance to test
the $4.00 a quart Bel-Ray thoroughly...
--Philip--
>> Dura Lube. The active ingredient isn't teflon, it's like organic zinc that
>> turns to liquid glass under high temperature and pressure.
>>
>Yeah, and I s'pose you believe in the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus? And
>wtf is "organic zinc" when it's at home? And would you like to explain
>to a complete novice how it turns to glass?
>
>*Please* don't tell em you believe this shit?
Ahem....this thread is leading into that old discussion about what constitutes
a 'ceramic' engine. This is really a hot topic in some circles!
Just think ... 'we' could market something that anyone could just pour into a
car engine that would change the composition of the wearing surfaces to
'ceramic!' WOW !!!
(We'll make BILLIONS)
Kaybearjr
>wtf is "organic zinc" when it's at home? And would you like to explain
>to a complete novice how it turns to glass?
This subject was covered in an article by Fred Rau in Road Rider magazine, now
known as Motorcycle Consumer News which has been extensively posted and
reposted all over the internet.
The name of the article was, unfortunately, called
"Snake Oil," referring to the old medicine show nostrums and cure-alls.
http://www.vtr.org/maintain/oil-additives.html
the fly
panacea. Regular top-end teardowns for decarbonising are a fact of life
for anyone who cares about keeping a two-stroke up to par.
Another factor in keeping your ring-ding running clean was alluded to
by another post. When the velocity of the fuel/air/oil mix going
through the engine slows down, (low revs), it's easier for fuel and oil
to come out of suspension and collect in the crankcase. Kown as
"loading up," this makes for nasty smoke, misfiring, fouled plugs, etc.
If you experience this on a regular basis, you need to practice keeping
the engine on the pipe, even at slower road speeds.
Later-model motorcycle two-stroke engines' power bands were broadened,
and they became pretty tolerant of slower crank speeds, by means of reed
valves, etc. But the fact that my RD-350s and 400s would pull decently
from 2500 rpm didn't excuse lugging at that speed on a regular basis.
"Jose B. Ruivo" wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> Is synthetic oil any better (than mineral) at reducing the carbon
> deposits in a 2-stroke engine and its exaust pipes?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jose B. ruivo
Jose B. Ruivo
wrote:
> Synthetic is certainly better than petroleum-based, but it's no
>panacea. Regular top-end teardowns for decarbonising are a fact of life
>for anyone who cares about keeping a two-stroke up to par.
Sorry, but I can not understand what you mean by "top-end teardowns".
Could you please explain?
> Another factor in keeping your ring-ding running clean was alluded to
>by another post. When the velocity of the fuel/air/oil mix going
>through the engine slows down, (low revs), it's easier for fuel and oil
>to come out of suspension and collect in the crankcase. Kown as
>"loading up," this makes for nasty smoke, misfiring, fouled plugs, etc.
>If you experience this on a regular basis, you need to practice keeping
>the engine on the pipe, even at slower road speeds.
Will high rpms wear the carbon in the engine at all, or just produce
piston (and other parts) wear?
Kaybearjr
I wish I knew for sure whether it was, or wasn't "snake oil."
Fred Rau doesn't seem to think that the toxic organic zinc business is "utter
crap," but the oil manufacturers have been limiting the amounts of zinc in
their products because of damage to catalytic converters.
Most motorcycles don't have a converter, so poisoning the catalyst is not a
problem. Two-stroke owners don't have to rub their eyes after handling the
product, either...
There are other webpages dealing with organic zinc and how it supposedly forms
a glasslike coating under heat and pressure that penetrates 3 to 5 microns into
the metal surface.
My experience with the people selling TVT is that they seem to be rather
slippery people themselves, possibly because they may be selling something that
they can get cheaply and turn it around at a very high price and don't want the
secret to get out...
Their product was previously sold as Maxilube, and was promoted as a
lubrication panacea for boats, and trucks, transmissions, gearboxes, power
steering units, 2-strokes, etc.
Kaybearjr
The "top end" of an engine is the cylinder, and cylinder
head, and pistons.
The "bottom end" is the crankcase, crankshaft, and rods.
In most two stroke engines, the top end can be stripped and the carbon cleaned
out in a matter of a few hours work. Air-cooled two strokes could be stripped
in a matter of minutes.
>Will high rpms wear the carbon in the engine at all, or just produce
>piston (and other parts) wear?
If the carbon is in a place where nothing mechanical touches it, it will stay
where it is.
Carbon build-up around the rings is reduced by a special "keystone" shape on
the ring, which makes it rock back and forth in the groove.
A two-stroke needs to be ridden hard to blow the carbon out. It may sound like
the RPM is very high, but remember that the engine is firing twice as often as
a four stroke, and most four stroke engines turn much higher RPM's than a two
stroke, even twice as high.
Two stroke engines have a narrow power band, with
the torque peak occuring suddenly, and riders who want to relax tend to avoid
hitting the sudden torque peak, where carbon would be blown out.
They lug the engine instead, and carbon builds up.
Kaybearjr
>sake, so what do you think "organic zinc" is likely to be?
zinc dialkyldithiophosphate = some zinc, some alkaloid compounded with sulfur
and phosphorus...
supposedly turns into a glasslike compound under extreme heat and pressure...
http://www.elcocorp.com/products/Elco114.html
Somebody is selling it. There must be a market for it.
Somebody must believe it works, or nobody would make it. Would they?
Zinc-d is found in Mechanics Brand Engine Tune Up,
K Mart Super Oil Treatment, and STP Engine Treatment With XEP2, among others.
Kaybearjr
What would you call it, if I hadn't mentioned "snake oil"
first?
The company promoting TVT did send the product to a
lab and the tests were published on the internet.
In comparision to the nationally-known competing products, the TVT-treated test
specimens exhibited
only about 25% of the wear experienced by the
competition...
Kaybearjr
>> test specimens exhibited only about 25% of the wear experienced by the
>> competition...
>
Nope. The lab they paid to test the stuff.
>Now *think* about what your choice between (1) and (2). Take your time.
Unfortunately, the menu has more choices than you offered by suggesting that
the "entire automotive world has failed to invent" the metal treatment process
that they are promoting.
Several different companies seem to have offered products containing zinc d.
The process that supposedly occurs under extreme heat and pressure has been
described by some internet sources.
And I have also seen internet sources which claim that
zinc d's benefits are marginal, or that the whole idea is
phony.
But there is simply too much discussion on the internet for (1) to be a choice
in decision, because there are too many companies involved.
I wouldn't be surprised if choice (2) describes the situation, because multiple
bullshit artists do exist.
Another possibility is that zinc d's toxicity and the fact that it poisons the
catalytic convertor is the reason why it is not popular nowadays.
Kaybearjr
>without lubricating oil?
I don't suppose you would accept user testimonials, would you? How about a
press release?
Volkswagen Runs 155 Miles on Water Instead of Engine Oil Using SuperBAT TVT
Additive
Chula Vista, California, April 20 -- BAT International (OTC BB-BAAT) announced
today that it's new SuperBAT TVT Metal Treatment Additive was recently put to
an extreme test. A Volkswagen powered mini-Hummer which has an air-cooled
engine was driven for 155 miles with only distilled water in the engine's
crankcase.
The test was conducted on April 7th, 1999, and started at SuperBAT's Latin
American office in Otay Mesa, Mexico. The test procedures and results were
administered and certified by Fancisco Martinez, a Volkswagen Principle
Engineer with 25 years of experience, the General Manager of the Otay Mesa
office, the SuperBAT TVT Director of Marketing for Latin America, and by Dr.
Jorge Montiel, a chemist and lubrication consultant to the Otay Mesa facility.
The test consisted of treating the Volkswagen engine with SuperBAT TVT Metal
Treatment Additive, draining all of the lubricating oil and TVT from the
crankcase and engine, then filling the crankcase and engine with distilled
water. With water now replacing the engine oil, the Volkswagen was then driven
155 miles on a hot day from Otay Mesa, Mexico to Ensenada, Mexico and then
returned to Otay Mesa.
The results were impressive. Both Dr. Montiel and VW engineer Mr. Martinez were
clearly amazed. "We had heard that SuperBAT TVT was the best engine Metal
Treatment Additive available," explained Martinez, "but we never thought that
it could stand up against this kind of test, especially in an air-cooled engine
that uses oil as both a coolant and lubricant."
After the 155 mile test, the water was drained from the engine and replaced
with oil and SuperBAT TVT. There was no apparent damage to the engine and the
mini-Hummer is back on the road. "It was the kind of test that I wanted the
public to know about. No tricks. No gimmicks. It was a real road test under
extreme driving conditions," said Bob Bello, president of SuperBAT, Inc. "We
are planning a series of additional certified tests to further demonstrate that
SuperBAT TVT products are the best engine treatment products available today."
Video tapes of the test are available from SuperBAT, Inc. at (619) 409-8980.
SuperBAT TVT Metal Treatment Additive and Fuel System Treatment products
are available by calling (800) 891-1188. Additional information regarding
SuperBAT TVT distributorships as well as public relations inquiries is
available from SuperBAT, Inc. at (619) 409-8980.
Harry K Smith
: After the 155 mile test, the water was drained from the engine and replaced
: with oil and SuperBAT TVT. There was no apparent damage to the engine
: and the mini-Hummer is back on the road.
I don't think there would be much water left to drain out after 155 miles.
Aircooled VW engines run kind of hot, very frequently over 250 degrees.
The water would have long since boiled off.
But just one man's opinion.
Harry
'83 Suzuki GR650 Tempter
'91 Suzuki VX800
Harry K Smith
: Hi guys! Ol' Kaybearjr. here thinks this product is on the level. To
: fill you in on the missing posts, he's also claiming that an aero engine
: has run without oil thanks to this wonder stuff, and that trucks
: competed at the Pike's Peak event, also running no oil in the engines.
In Kaybear's defense, he's never said he believed it. Just said it
sounded interesting. He has consistently used words like "supposedly",
"they claim", and "might". Also, he has given references that don't
support it, as well as some that do.
What do you have against this guy? You seem to be taking this personally.
[Note: sorry for not posting to uk.rec.moto, don't get it here. Oh, and
for snipping references. Too many choke my newsreader.]
Kira Brown
Chateau...@btinternet.com (The Older Gentleman) writes:
>
> Allegedly it's made from "organic zinc". Um, any *serious* contributions
> instead of the usual piss-takes? ;-))
>
You *could* run an engine with some kind of dry lubricant instead of
oil, but I suspect you'd have to design the engine specifically for the
purpose. (There are some tiny modelling engines that you lubricate with
a mixture of graphite powder with some kind of sticky goo, and ISTR someone
made a tractor with no oil requirement...)
And the only things I can think of that'd be slippy enough
are graphite powder and PTFE, neither of which is 'organic zinc'.
Any proper engineers want to back me up on this one? I'm only an
electronics type.
kira.
Ivan Reid
wrote in <ft3nq8...@carrot.linuxgrrls.org>:
>In article <1ehi7vh.jyi...@host62-7-79-24.btinternet.com>,
> Chateau...@btinternet.com (The Older Gentleman) writes:
>> Allegedly it's made from "organic zinc". Um, any *serious* contributions
>> instead of the usual piss-takes? ;-))
>You *could* run an engine with some kind of dry lubricant instead of
>oil, but I suspect you'd have to design the engine specifically for the
>purpose. (There are some tiny modelling engines that you lubricate with
>a mixture of graphite powder with some kind of sticky goo, and ISTR someone
>made a tractor with no oil requirement...)
>And the only things I can think of that'd be slippy enough
>are graphite powder and PTFE, neither of which is 'organic zinc'.
There's molybdenum disulphide, but that's neither zinc nor organic.
I have no problems envisaging an organic zinc compound (e.g. off the top
of my head, since there's no catalogue immediately available, di-methyl zinc),
and couldn't begin to guess what lubricating properties it might have. But
running a vehicle long distances with water in the sump doesn't sound too
feasible to me, even if it was vouched for by a Principle(sic) Engineer.
Apart from anything else, it would quickly boil away...
>Any proper engineers want to back me up on this one? I'm only an
>electronics type.
--
Ivan Reid, Physics & Astronomy, University College London. i...@hep.ucl.ac.uk
GSX600F, RG250WD. SI=2.66 "You Porsche. Me pass!" DoD #484
JKLO# 003, 005 WP7# 3000 UKMC#00009 BOTAFOT#16
KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty".
MrMoosehead
news:1ehi7vh.jyi...@host62-7-79-24.btinternet.com...
> Kaybearjr <kayb...@aol.comical> wrote:
<SNIP FANTASY>
>
> Allegedly it's made from "organic zinc". Um, any *serious* contributions
> instead of the usual piss-takes? ;-))
You ask too much of us Neil....
(Good to meet you at the w/e)
-- Adrian Hall (Mr Moosehead Strikes Again)
CBR600f The ARK (exGPZ500s)
:- two#9 SBR#12 GHPOTHUF#21 Leeds -:
(NEW - in glorious CRAP-O-VISION http://www.formicarium.com/adrian/)
{{{ _ }}}
--O O--
/ \
(O O)
TTT
Richard Halford
>
> There's molybdenum disulphide, but that's neither zinc nor organic.
>I have no problems envisaging an organic zinc compound (e.g. off the top
>of my head, since there's no catalogue immediately available, di-methyl zinc),
>and couldn't begin to guess what lubricating properties it might have. But
>running a vehicle long distances with water in the sump doesn't sound too
>feasible to me, even if it was vouched for by a Principle(sic) Engineer.
>Apart from anything else, it would quickly boil away...
And probably rust internal iron/steel parts over time.
William Grainger
>On Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:55:11 +0100, Kira Brown <ki...@linuxgrrls.org>
> wrote in <ft3nq8...@carrot.linuxgrrls.org>:
>>In article <1ehi7vh.jyi...@host62-7-79-24.btinternet.com>,
>> Chateau...@btinternet.com (The Older Gentleman) writes:
>
>>> instead of the usual piss-takes? ;-))
:-)
>
>>You *could* run an engine with some kind of dry lubricant instead of
>>oil, but I suspect you'd have to design the engine specifically for the
>>purpose. (There are some tiny modelling engines that you lubricate with
>>a mixture of graphite powder with some kind of sticky goo, and ISTR someone
>>made a tractor with no oil requirement...)
>
>>And the only things I can think of that'd be slippy enough
>>are graphite powder and PTFE, neither of which is 'organic zinc'.
>
> There's molybdenum disulphide, but that's neither zinc nor organic.
>I have no problems envisaging an organic zinc compound (e.g. off the top
>of my head, since there's no catalogue immediately available, di-methyl zinc),
>and couldn't begin to guess what lubricating properties it might have. But
>running a vehicle long distances with water in the sump doesn't sound too
>feasible to me, even if it was vouched for by a Principle(sic) Engineer.
>Apart from anything else, it would quickly boil away...
If you could keep it pressurised, then that might not be a problem.
But that's not going to be easy.
Any they only managed to run it for 155 miles. What was the state of the
engine after that?
I think the experiment, if it is true, has just told us that an engine
will do 155 miles with really crappy lubrication, but don't expect
any more than that...
--
Will
CX 'homemade' 500C IMC#10 two#7 BOTAFOF#02 STB#5
AndrewR
news:1ehi7vh.jyi...@host62-7-79-24.btinternet.com...
> Kaybearjr <kayb...@aol.comical> wrote:
>
>
Performance Bikes did a very good article on this sort of thing a few years
ago.
The basic conclusions were :
1. Companies who had actually tested these products had not used any kind
of scientific testing process and, in many cases, didn't know that they had
ever taken part in a trial of this kind.
2. The best testimonial they could find was somebody who had tried one of
these products in an engine and thought, in his opinion, that it had run
better afterwards, but there were no metrics to support this claim.
3. It is certainly possible to have substances that reduce the friction in
an engine, but this is not always a good thing. In many cases bike engines
don't even work particularly well with the top car oils that are available.
4. Substances like PTFE can cause problems with blocking up oilways and so
forth.
That broadly agree with your debunks of these things?
--
AndrewR, D.Bot (Celeritas)
ZX-6R (Knee-slides=0, mingers=inconsistent - help sought)
BOTAFOT#2,ITJWTFO#6,UKRMRM#1
calce feri dum demissi sunt - Triumphant are the valiant
Richard Halford
<and...@rockface.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>The Older Gentleman <Chateau...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>news:1ehi7vh.jyi...@host62-7-79-24.btinternet.com...
>> Kaybearjr <kayb...@aol.comical> wrote:
>>
>> > I don't suppose you would accept user testimonials, would you?
>>
>> Nope. Not unless they're backed with solid independent testing.
>
>Performance Bikes did a very good article on this sort of thing a few years
>ago.
>
>The basic conclusions were :
>
>1. Companies who had actually tested these products had not used any kind
>of scientific testing process and, in many cases, didn't know that they had
>ever taken part in a trial of this kind.
>2. The best testimonial they could find was somebody who had tried one of
>these products in an engine and thought, in his opinion, that it had run
>better afterwards, but there were no metrics to support this claim.
And in a few cases they just said it to stop the company pestering
them.
>3. It is certainly possible to have substances that reduce the friction in
>an engine, but this is not always a good thing. In many cases bike engines
>don't even work particularly well with the top car oils that are available.
Its the friction modifiers they use init, play havoc with wet
clutches. I think its API-SH and above that are not recommended.
>4. Substances like PTFE can cause problems with blocking up oilways and so
>forth.
IIRC from the article, the AA said that PTFE was a very good way of
clogging your oil filter and thats about it, and the US army had
banned the use of it in vehicles. They used a few BMWs and in some
cases the wear was worse.
Now if only PB stopped reviewing 996's, ZX9Rs and R1's every month
they would have room for some more articles like that one
Richard Halford
wrote:
>
>If you could keep it pressurised, then that might not be a problem.
>But that's not going to be easy.
Bit of a problem when the engine has breather pipes, unless they were
blocked up.
>Any they only managed to run it for 155 miles. What was the state of the
>engine after that?
Did they have to walk home? ;-)
Richard Halford
<and...@rockface.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>The Older Gentleman <Chateau...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>news:1ehi7vh.jyi...@host62-7-79-24.btinternet.com...
>> Kaybearjr <kayb...@aol.comical> wrote:
>>
>> > I don't suppose you would accept user testimonials, would you?
>>
>> Nope. Not unless they're backed with solid independent testing.
>
>Performance Bikes did a very good article on this sort of thing a few years
>ago.
<snip>
They do have some excellent articles from time to time, but I do
remember them reviewing the SV650 and implying it was a bit so,so
verging on pants.
CT
news:39cf4245.334809190@mailsvr...
And talking of SVs, there're a couple of reviews[1] at
http://www.bikenet-racing.com
for those that are interested.
[1] One by BikeNet, one by Joe Public.
--
Chris
ZX9-R (in green, obviously) BOTAFOT#51, D.Bot(Celeritas)
Rob Dymond
(Richard Halford) wrote:
>On Mon, 25 Sep 2000 12:22:21 +0100, "AndrewR"
><and...@rockface.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>Performance Bikes did a very good article on this sort of thing a few years
>>ago.
>
><snip>
>They do have some excellent articles from time to time, but I do
>remember them reviewing the SV650 and implying it was a bit so,so
>verging on pants.
Compared to somewhat more exotic tin bought with someone else's money
it is, obviously.
<Performance Bikes journo mode>
The GSXR750 was a good bike last week, then I had a go on the new
'blade; I almost shit myself (no, I didn't really; I'm good, me..)
The GSXR750 is now seven million miles an hour slower than your
granny's yellow punto, and it won't corner better than a milkfloat.
Suzuki, unless you release the Gixxer thou, and let me write it off on
a test ride I'm taking my football home..
</Performance Bikes journo mode>
--
Rob
SV650SY, "Craptra" V6, ICQ:638133, MRO#4, BOTAFOT#29, TAB#0
Work in progress: http://homepage.virgin.net/rob.dymond/
Jim Ingram
>
> Kaybearjr <kayb...@aol.comical> wrote:
>
> > >> the TVT-treated
> > >> test specimens exhibited only about 25% of the wear experienced by the
> > >> competition...
> > >
> > >Sure, sure. Says who? Let me guess: the company peddling the stuff......
> >
> > Nope. The lab they paid to test the stuff.
>
> What's being quoted is in context?
> >
> > >Now *think* about what your choice between (1) and (2). Take your time.
> >
>
> Well, you managed to avoid the central question. Here is a substance
> which according to your posting allows aircraft engines and truck
> engines to run without oil.
>
> Would you disagree with me if I suggested that this is complete
> nonsense? Or do you have hard evidence that these engines will run
> without lubricating oil?
>
There does appear to be some evidence in the mainstream scientific
literature to support the claims for zinc-d... . See abstract below for
one example. This does not necessarily mean that the product in question
will meet all the manufacturers claims but it does appear to have some
interesting anti-wear properties.
Relationship between mechanical properties and structures of zinc
dithiophosphate anti-wear films
Bec S, Tonck A, Georges JM, Coy RC, Bell JC,
Roper GW
PROCEEDINGS OF THE ROYAL SOCIETY OF LONDON SERIES A-MATHEMATICAL
PHYSICAL AND
ENGINEERING SCIENCES
455: (1992) 4181-4203 DEC 8 1999
Document type: Article
Language: English
Cited References: 26
Times Cited:
1
Abstract:
The structure and the rheological properties of the anti-wear films from
a zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDTP) solution
generated in a rolling/sliding contact simulating engine valve train
conditions have been studied with analytical and surface-force
tools.
The anti-wear film has a complex structure that has been determined by
extensive use of surface analytical techniques that
include SEM/EPMA, XPS, ToFSIMS and Auger spectroscopy. The film consists
of at least three non-homogeneous layers: on
the steel surface there is a sulphide-oxide layer, which is almost
completely covered by a protective phosphate layer, with the
addition of an overlayer of ZDTP degradation precipitates. This latter
layer is removed when the film is washed with an alkane
solvent. Therefore, the properties of the ZDTP film layers have been
studied both before and after solvent washing with
n-heptane. A surface-force apparatus gives, first, the rheological
properties of the film, obtained from sphere-plane squeeze
experiments, and, second, some mechanical properties obtained from
nanoindentation experiments coupled with topographic
imaging procedures performed after replacing the sphere by a diamond
tip. From the indentation experiments, the properties of
the solvent-washed film were determined from the normal stiffness
measurements and through the application of a rheological
film model. The solvent-washed specimen, comprising sulphide and
phosphate layers, exhibits an elastoplastic behaviour. In
particular, the mechanical properties of the phosphate layer increase
during the loading stage of the indentation to accommodate
the increasing applied pressure.
From these observations and previous film analyses, a schematic picture
of the 'full' anti-wear ZDTP film structure and its
mechanical properties was obtained. A highly viscous layer of alkyl
phosphate covers islands of solid polyphosphates. These
islands are partly adherent to the steel surface through a sulphide
layer and accommodate the real contact pressure in the
tribotest. These results show that the exceptional wear resisting
properties of ZDTP films arise from their ability to respond to a
wide range of imposed conditions. As the severity of loading increases,
so too do the resistive forces within the film. ZDTP
anti-wear films can truly be described as SMART materials.
KeyWords Plus:
SURFACE FORCE APPARATUS, SOLID-SURFACES, RHEOLOGY, ZDDPS,
DIALKYLDITHIOPHOSPHATES,
CONTACT
Addresses:
Bec S, Ecole Cent Lyon, UMR CNRS 5513, Lab Tribol & Dynam Syst, BP 163,
F-69131 Ecully, France.
Ecole Cent Lyon, UMR CNRS 5513, Lab Tribol & Dynam Syst, F-69131 Ecully,
France.
Shell Res & Technol Ctr, Chester CH1 3SH, Cheshire, England.
Jim Ingram
Publisher:
ROYAL SOC LONDON, LONDON
IDS Number:
271MU
ISSN:
1364-5021
Kaybearjr
> As the severity of loading increases,
>so too do the resistive forces within the film. ZDTP
>anti-wear films can truly be described as SMART materials.
By Jove, I think he's got it! My hat's off to Jim Ingram.
>This latter
>layer is removed when the film is washed with an alkane
>solvent.
It sounds like the use of gasohol fuels in a two-stroke might wash away the
ZDTP "degradation precipitates," whatever they might be...
Platypus
> instead of the usual piss-takes? ;-))
Prolly run better on claret.
<serious>
http://www.ford-trucks.com/articles/oil-additives.html
</s>
--
Platypus
VN800 Drifter "The Comfy Chair"
R100/7 a bit knackered
DIAABTCOD#2 GHPOTHUF#19 BOTAFOS#6
"Do you think, at your age, it is right?"
Jim Ingram
Friction and wear behavior of zinc dialkyldithiophosphate additive
Taylor L, Dratva A, Spikes HA
TRIBOLOGY TRANSACTIONS
43: (3) 469-479 JUL 2000
Document type: Article
Language: English
Cited References: 39
Times Cited:
0
Abstract:
A method has been developed for monitoring the film-forming properties
of antiwear additives in rolling-sliding, lubricated
contacts. This makes it possible to study both the kinetics of reaction
plm growth and also the evolution of the film morphology
as a function of rubbing time. The technique has been applied to
investigate the behavior of a zinc dialkyl-dithiophosphate
(ZDDP) additive solution and to correlate this with simultaneous
friction and wear measurements.
The results show that ZDDP forms a thick solid-like, reaction film in
the rubbing tracks, with negligible film growth outside of
the track. This film is extremely effective in preventing metal-metal
contact. However the film is unevenly-distributed, with its
roughness oriented in the direction of sliding. This directional
roughness inhibits the entrainment of fluid film in the mixed
lubrication regime, increases the proportion of load supported by
solid-solid contact and consequently results in the high friction
often associated with the use of ZDDP additives.
Author Keywords:
antiwear additives, zinc dialkyldithiophosphate, friction, wear, optical
interferometry, spacer layer
KeyWords Plus:
RAY-ABSORPTION-SPECTROSCOPY, ANTIWEAR FILMS, CHEMICAL CHARACTERIZATION,
CONTACTS,
ZDDP, DITHIOPHOSPHATE, LUBRICATION, THICKNESS
Addresses:
Taylor L, Univ London Imperial Coll Sci Technol & Med, Dept Mech Engn,
Tribol Sect, London SW7 2BX, England.
Univ London Imperial Coll Sci Technol & Med, Dept Mech Engn, Tribol
Sect, London SW7 2BX, England.
Publisher:
SOC TRIBOLOGISTS & LUBRICATION ENGINEERS, PARK RIDGE
--Philip--
>I do get slightly pissed off that some people persist in touting this
>sort of worthless snake oil.
Really! I'm surprised the American Indian Council on Snake Oils has not
contacted you for a public apolgy! How insensitive of you to go on such a rant
and crusade! (Humph!)
-Philip-
"Anything that offends common sense
will be embraced by an intellectual"
Kaybearjr
>This directional
>roughness inhibits the entrainment of fluid film in the mixed
>lubrication regime, increases the proportion of load supported by
>solid-solid contact and consequently results in the high friction
>often associated with the use of ZDDP additives.
Very interesting. The ZDDP is essentially a "lubricant of last-resort," though,
saving the metal parts when all else has failed...
Molly Fletcher
ki...@linuxgrrls.org (Kira Brown) writes:
> In article <1ehi7vh.jyi...@host62-7-79-24.btinternet.com>,
> Chateau...@btinternet.com (The Older Gentleman) writes:
>>
>> instead of the usual piss-takes? ;-))
>>
>
> oil, but I suspect you'd have to design the engine specifically for the
> purpose. (There are some tiny modelling engines that you lubricate with
> a mixture of graphite powder with some kind of sticky goo, and ISTR someone
> made a tractor with no oil requirement...)
I have heard of GS engines being run dry for several hundred miles before
they finally die. Doesn't mean it's a good idea, just means those engines
take quite a bit to kill them...
--
Molly Fletcher http://www.technodykes.org/molly/
GS850 mo...@technodykes.org
DOGMUK TGMCC DOAB TLBB TCP#5 STB#2 two#13a
Bristol area Bikers http://www.molanie.org/bab/
Grimly Curmudgeon
blare of usenet, the voice of Chateau...@btinternet.com (The Older
Gentleman) rang out loud and clear:
>Hi guys! Ol' Kaybearjr. here thinks this product is on the level. To
>fill you in on the missing posts, he's also claiming that an aero engine
>has run without oil thanks to this wonder stuff, and that trucks
>competed at the Pike's Peak event, also running no oil in the engines.
>
>Allegedly it's made from "organic zinc". Um, any *serious* contributions
>instead of the usual piss-takes? ;-))
Most pressure lubrication systems will pump water round the block and
supply the mains/big ends quite happily - up to a point.
The bearings are running on a film of fluid that just happens to be
water; not a good thing in the longer term. I rather suspect that this
shower of charlatans already wrecked a couple of engines finding out
just how long one would last and only then carried out a public trial
of some 150-odd miles, knowing full well that if they'd carried on
past that distance the internal damage would be severe.
The figure of 150 miles strikes me as really odd - why that distance
and not, for example, 500, or even 900? If this bunch of snakeoil
peddlers could actually get an engine to run for over 1000 miles on
plain water in the bearings, I for one, would sit up and take notice.
Total flim-flam.
Load of old bollocks.
Utter crap.
Mince.
Tripe.
Shite.
--
Dave
"Whenever I hear the word 'culture', I reach for my revolver."
- Herman Goering
Molly Fletcher
>
>> I have heard of GS engines being run dry for several hundred miles before
>> they finally die. Doesn't mean it's a good idea, just means those engines
>> take quite a bit to kill them...
>>
> won't last long....
>
> Off the bottom of the dipstick, or not visible in the oil window, maybe,
> but *totally* dry? Nah.
Dry enough not to activate the oil sensor but yeah, there was probably
some sludge left in the sump.
Lucich
"Kaybearjr" <kayb...@aol.comical> wrote in message
news:20000921121128...@ng-ft1.aol.com...
> I experimented with petroleum-based Torco two-stroke
> oil when I premixed, and I could always tell when I had enough oil in the
> pre-mix by the feeling that the fuel/air mixture was just a little on the
rich
> side.
Is it because oil requires more oxygen to burn? It seems that running a
thick premix, high in oil content, would result in less fuel flowing through
the carburetor jets relative to the amount of air and result in a lean
mixture. I'm not doubting your findings, just trying to understand why.
Lucich
"Kaybearjr" <kayb...@aol.comical> wrote in message
I think one was called Dura Lube. The active ingredient isn't teflon, it's
like organic zinc that
> turns to liquid glass under high temperature and pressure.
Organic zinc; interesting concept. I think I may have invented that myself
once when I left a frying pan on the kitchen stove. I'm pretty sure it was
some kind of glass. It could have been plastic.
Kaybearjr
Excess oil in the premix lowers the octane rating, and the engine runs a bit
hotter. Interestingly, in studies of
four stroke detonation, the carbon build-up in the engine just before it
self-destructs usually indicate a rich mixture, not a lean mixture...
Kaybearjr
>once when I left a frying pan on the kitchen stove.
Were you frying up a batch of STP Smoky Engine Treatment? This stuff contains
zinc dialkyldithiophosphate and olefin copolymer which supposedly "fills in"
worn places in the moving parts.
$5.27 for a pint of this stuff, which might act as a
lubricant of last resort in a total lubrication failure situation...
Jim Williamson
>
>"Kaybearjr" <kayb...@aol.comical> wrote in message
Correct. In a 2-cycle, premixed - more oil mixed leans the charge.
Thus the result is a hotter cyl operating environment.
Lucich
> >Any they only managed to run it for 155 miles. What was the state of the
> >engine after that?
>
> Did they have to walk home? ;-)
>
balloon, but there was a problem and the balloon departed without them.
Fortunately, they found they could return home by clicking their heels
together and repeating "There's no place like home, there's no place like
home..."
There are unconfirmed rumors... No I take that back. Speaking as an expert
in the field, I can state without a doubt that The Older Gentleman was there
at the finish of the test and tried to set fire to the car, calling the
testers charlatans and their so-called test a hoax. When the distinguished
testers tried to extinguish the fire with water that had just been drained
from the engine, some of it splashed onto the poor old guy and he melted.
Oh what a world!