Honda Rebel 450 carb
Snowcat
I have a Honda Rebel 450. The carb has been rebuilt (3X) but the same issue
still persists. I apparently need a new carb, this one has too much corrosion.
Can I use new 250 rebel carb on this 1987 with no adaptation issues or are
they completely different?
--
The Older Gentleman
Why don't you look up in the spec sheet to see if they're listed as the
same carb? I doubt they'd use the same carb on a 250 and a 450 separated
by more than 20 years, but they might. However, doesn't the 450 have
twin carbs and the 250 a single?
If they both have single carbs and they are the same unit, no problem,
although it will probably need re-jetting and setting up again.
If they look the same but aren't, and the 250 carb still bolts on
perfectly, then a smaller carb will certainly work, yes. It will
probably need setting up for the bigger engine, and you'll lose a bit of
top end power with the trade-off of winning a bit more flexibility lower
down
--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F Triumph Street Triple
Kawasaki GT550 Suzuki TS250ERx2 GN250 Damn, back to eight bikes!
Try Googling before asking a damn silly question.
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
`
> Can I use new 250 rebel carb on this 1987 with no adaptation issues or are
> they completely different?
The 450 has two spigot mounted carburetors that slide into rubber
hoses and the 250 has one flange mounted carburetor that bolts onto
the cylinder head, so there's no easy way to interchange carbs between
the two motorcycles which share only the Rebel name.
`
Biter) wrote:
> If they look the same but aren't, and the 250 carb still bolts on
> perfectly, then a smaller carb will certainly work, yes. It will
> probably need setting up for the bigger engine, and you'll lose a bit of
> top end power with the trade-off of winning a bit more flexibility lower
> down
You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
The Older Gentleman
The Older Gentleman
Yes, I do, actually.
Think of all those bikes that have been fitted with smaller carbs.
`
Gentleman) wrote:
> Whoopie. You got there in the end.
Is your nickname "Snowcat?"
If not, STFU.
`
Biter) wrote:
> ` <breoganmacbr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
>
> Yes, I do, actually.
>
> Think of all those bikes that have been fitted with smaller carbs.
See above.
The Older Gentleman
The Older Gentleman
Snowcat
>` <breoganmacbrath@yahoo,com > wrote:
>
>> On Aug 25, 11:16 am, totallydeadmail...@yahoo.co.uk (The Older
>> Gentleman) wrote:
>>
>> > Whoopie. You got there in the end.
>>
>> Is your nickname "Snowcat?"
>>
>> If not, STFU.
>
>Sorry, sweetheart.
>
there any other carb that will work....from Harley maybe?
--
Mark Olson
> Why are people being assholes here? I was just looking for for advice! Is
> there any other carb that will work....from Harley maybe?
Your bike has two carbs, not one. Sure, it's possible to replace the set with
a set from another bike, assuming the venturi spacing and diameter match up
with the original intake rubbers that attach the carbs to the head. Then, you
have to also find carbs with the same length and diameter of the intake horn
side of the venturi so they will fit the rubbers that go between the carbs
and the airbox. Replacing the stock airbox and air filter with individual
filters is a very bad idea. Don't be tempted to do this, with CV carbs.
Assuming you actually need to replace the carbs rather than ultrasonically
clean them and replace rubber bits, just get a set of replacement carbs off
another Rebel/Nighthawk/CB/CM 450 or 400, they are plentiful and relatively
inexpensive. It's far easier and the bike will run better if they are stock,
trying to fit something else that wasn't made for the bike is a waste of time,
you will never improve on the stock configuration, especially if you actually
want to enjoy riding your bike.
I used to own a 1981 CM400T which I believe has the same engine (other than
a 70.5mm bore vs. the 75mm bore of your 450) and carbs as your Rebel 450 does,
with minor variations. I really doubt Honda changed the bore spacing and crank
on this engine just to get another 50cc, so a set of carbs from the 400 should
fit on the 450. But if you decide to include carbs from the 400s in your
search you need to make sure they will bolt up. Undoubtedly there is an
owner's forum that is devoted to these 400/450 twins where you will find
someone who knows for sure.
Good luck.
TOG@Toil
Your bike has two carbs. A 250 Rebel has one. You won't be able to
bolt on a single carb wiothout a lot of work. You will need to source
a pair of carbs, and as Mark says, the Honda CB400/450 is a good place
to start, but the chances are good that a used pair of carbs will be
buggered/gummed anyway.
Or get your carbs ultrasonically cleaned. And fire the bod who rebuilt
them three times without curing the fault. Fire yourself if it was you.
Mark Olson
> Not people, just Krusty. See Mark's reply, and see my original one.
> Your bike has two carbs. A 250 Rebel has one. You won't be able to
> bolt on a single carb wiothout a lot of work. You will need to source
> a pair of carbs, and as Mark says, the Honda CB400/450 is a good place
> to start, but the chances are good that a used pair of carbs will be
> buggered/gummed anyway.
I must be lucky, because I have never run into a set of carbs I couldn't
make like new by simply pulling off the float bowls, floats, diaphragm covers
and the diaphragms/pistons, removing all the jets, and flushing them out with
copious amounts of aerosol carb cleaner and compressed air. I did have to
replace the floats in my Bandit 400's carbs but those were oddball setups
where the float valve housing and the float mechanism was all plastic and has
O-rings to attach the float/valve mechanism to the carb body.
> Or get your carbs ultrasonically cleaned. And fire the bod who rebuilt
> them three times without curing the fault. Fire yourself if it was you.
Yep, I still think he's still got shite in the carbs, and/or buggered
float needles, and needs them properly cleaned, inspected, and parts replaced
as necessary. I rarely ever buy replacement carb parts except when O-rings
or gaskets have gone dry and crumbly as they do sometimes, other times I
have seen bowl gaskets completely encrusted in sealant by a previous bodger
but I have been able to pick it away and the underlying gasket is still like
new.
TOG@Toil
> Yep, I still think he's still got shite in the carbs, and/or buggered
> float needles, and needs them properly cleaned, inspected, and parts replaced
> as necessary. I rarely ever buy replacement carb parts except when O-rings
> or gaskets have gone dry and crumbly as they do sometimes, other times I
> have seen bowl gaskets completely encrusted in sealant by a previous bodger
> but I have been able to pick it away and the underlying gasket is still like
> new.
The only time I've ever been defeated by carbs was on the old CB500T I
restored. I daresay ultrasonic cleaning would have done the trick, but
the offer of a guaranteed sorted sweet-running carb set, in exchange
for a complete CB500T engine (one of three I had!), proved
irresistible.
I notice that if you sell used carbs, and you're absolutely prepared
to offer a money-back guarantee that they're perfectly OK, then the
price goes up by an order of magnitude. People now assume that old
used carbs are knackered and/or gummed. For a set of 400 Four carbs,
it's the difference between £10 and £75.
Mark Olson
> The only time I've ever been defeated by carbs was on the old CB500T I
> restored. I daresay ultrasonic cleaning would have done the trick, but
> the offer of a guaranteed sorted sweet-running carb set, in exchange
> for a complete CB500T engine (one of three I had!), proved
> irresistible.
I would gladly trade the extra EX500 lump sitting in my garage (runs well
but vibrates, needs to be torn down to see why) for a decent set of spare
carbs, just on the principle that the carbs are smaller and weigh less,
even though I have two EX500s to look after now, and a spare engine is a
nice thing to have.
> I notice that if you sell used carbs, and you're absolutely prepared
> to offer a money-back guarantee that they're perfectly OK, then the
> price goes up by an order of magnitude. People now assume that old
> used carbs are knackered and/or gummed. For a set of 400 Four carbs,
> it's the difference between �10 and �75.
I had an absolutely perfect rack of spare carbs for a ZG1000, the only fly
in the ointment was that I had I ham-fistedly broke off the protrusion
on the #2 carb that kept the throttle cable bracket from turning around
its mounting screw, which exposed a bit of the enrichener passageway.
Now that I am a true believer in the one true fix-anything magic goo
that is JB Weld, I am sure I could have fixed it permanently, but at that
time I wasn't 100% sure of its gasoline-resistant properties (I am now)
so I sold them for parts for much less than they were worth if the fault
had been fixed.
I wouldn't count on any used set of carbs as being in any other state
other than gummed up, but as I said I've never seen a set that wasn't
fixable by dissolving the goo. So I think the OP is barking up the wrong
tree looking for replacements, unless something really odd happened
to those carbs. And again, there's zero sense in trying to adapt a
different carb set to such a common bike, there is no shortage of exact
replacements carbs out there.
Larry Blanchard
>
> I must be lucky, because I have never run into a set of carbs I couldn't
> make like new by simply pulling off the float bowls, floats, diaphragm
> covers and the diaphragms/pistons, removing all the jets, and flushing
> them out with copious amounts of aerosol carb cleaner and compressed
> air.
I often hear the dire warnings about not trying to clean out jets with
wires. But I have a friend who's been a motorcyclist for a very long
time and he swears by a set of precision wires he has in 0.001"
increments. I suspect they're also available in metric sizes. Seems
that as long as one knows the diameter of the jet aperture, he has a
point. Anyone here used those wires to clean carbs?
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw
Mark Olson
Not those, but I have had good success de-grunging some stubbornly caked
pilot jets by running soft copper wire strands through them. Just
spraying the carb cleaner wasn't shifting it, but cleaner coupled with
some gentle poking with the soft wire did the trick. Just strip off the
insulation from some medium to small gauge stranded insulated wire (of a
size where each strand is around 30 gauge, small enough to fit through
most jets) and Bob's your mother's brother.
The problem with using anything hard, no matter how precise the diameter,
is the squared-off end of the wire can scrape away material from the
carefully shaped jet's throat. Unless someone has previously drilled
out the jet (ugh) they are not usually a plain cylindrical section, they
look more like a carb venturi.
I would also think ultrasonic cleaning of jets with a suitable solvent
would work nearly 100% of the time, but usually I want to get the bike
back together quickly so I go for the easiest and quickest way.
paul c
Once, when I had run a rusty tank dry and no cleaner or compressor was
available. I used a piece of the thinnest wire around, the kind small
electronic parts use, put the wire gently through the jets. I figured
the wire was softer than the brass (don't know if it's softer than
zinc). Then held the pilot jet up to the sun, it was still partly blocked.
Once I paid for ultrasonic cleaning on a friend's carb'. Couldn't get
the pilot jet out, the slot had been mangled. Ultrasonic guy said that
was okay, it would still clean okay. Still couldn't adjust idle,
thought there might be an air leak. When I took the carb off again and
opened up the bottom just to doublecheck, I heard 'clink' and there was
the pilot jet on the floor. A dealer had previously cleaned the carb'
because friend had left it sitting for a few years and it appeared that
he had just wedged the pilot jet in using the wrong size screwdriver,
the slot was ruined. So I took the mangled jet back to the dealer to
get a new one. He said "who did this?". I said: "you did!"
I don't understand people who submerge a carb then blow it out without
1) removing the jets, 2) making sure a nice round light shows through
the holes. Even with my very poor eyes, I've found it's the only way to
be sure. About the only cleaning I'm ever sure of, women have told me I
can't clean a floor properly. If my eyes get much worse, I'll just get a
woman to check the jets for me.
`
> Why are people being assholes here?
We have problems with one individual who describes himself as "The
Older Gentleman."
He wants to be the editor of a motorcycle magazine but all he can get
is work in
agricultural reporting concerning orange juice and that sort of thing.
So he makes himself obnoxious.
> I was just looking for for advice!
An innocent newbie comes into this group looking for advice about once
a month and discovers that "The Older Gentleman" thinks he owns the
group.
If you get into an argument with "The Older Gentleman," you'll wind up
either
1) kissing his ass and apologizing, or 2) telling him to go piss up a
rope.
I take the latter position.
> Is there any other carb that will work....from Harley maybe?
Not likely.
If you have to ask a question like that, you're not prepared for all
the work it would take to convert a carburetor from one engine to
another.
The Older Gentleman
> Not those, but I have had good success de-grunging some stubbornly caked
> pilot jets by running soft copper wire strands through them. Just
> spraying the carb cleaner wasn't shifting it, but cleaner coupled with
> some gentle poking with the soft wire did the trick. Just strip off the
> insulation from some medium to small gauge stranded insulated wire (of a
> size where each strand is around 30 gauge, small enough to fit through
> most jets) and Bob's your mother's brother.
Heh. I've done *precisely* that as well.
The Older Gentleman
> He wants to be the editor of a motorcycle magazine
Actually, I already have been :-)
Snowcat
>On Aug 26, 6:34=A0am, Snowcat<dreadlocksfording...@gmail,com > wrote:
>
>> Why are people being assholes here?
>
>We have problems with one individual who describes himself as "The
>Older Gentleman."
>
>He wants to be the editor of a motorcycle magazine but all he can get
>is work in
>agricultural reporting concerning orange juice and that sort of thing.
>
>So he makes himself obnoxious.
>
>> I was just looking for for advice!
>
>An innocent newbie comes into this group looking for advice about once
>a month and discovers that "The Older Gentleman" thinks he owns the
>group.
>
>If you get into an argument with "The Older Gentleman," you'll wind up
>either
>1) kissing his ass and apologizing, or 2) telling him to go piss up a
>rope.
>
>I take the latter position.
>
>> Is there any other carb that will work...,fr om Harley maybe?
>
>Not likely.
>
>If you have to ask a question like that, you're not prepared for all
>the work it would take to convert a carburetor from one engine to
>another.
I wasn't taking on the challenge of doing any of this myself, you're right I
know nothing....at least I admit it! Here's the thing, my boyfriend, who is
one of the bigger custom Harley builders (everyone would know him if I
mentioned his name) got me this bike from a guy who had it stored improperly
for 15 years. We had to buy it, the price was irresistable. Since he doesn't
do Hondas he sent it to his buddy who is supossedly a guru. He says the carbs(
or just the left one) is so badly pitted there is no saving it, he tried and
has obviously failed. The only reason I'm doing some investigating myself is
cause I WANT TO RIDE MY BIKE, damn it. My plan was to forward ideas to them,
not do this myself.
So are you saying the carbs from a nighthawk are good?
As far as all the issues that occur on this board...no worries, it has no
affect on me, I'm impervious to shit!
Thanks for you help guys,
Lisa
>
--
The Older Gentleman
> Since he doesn't
> do Hondas he sent it to his buddy who is supossedly a guru.
Ha! Heard that before.
>He says the carbs(
> or just the left one) is so badly pitted there is no saving it, he tried and
> has obviously failed.
Well, here's a thing. What's pitted? I assume he means corroded. That's
possible, but it would have to be appalling to be unrecoverable.
Assuming you can ultrasound the carbs, then the rest is new jets,
needles, O-rings and the like.
>The only reason I'm doing some investigating myself is
> cause I WANT TO RIDE MY BIKE, damn it. My plan was to forward ideas to them,
> not do this myself.
>
> So are you saying the carbs from a nighthawk are good?
Listen to Mark Olson. Those Honda twins, with the three valves per
cylinder, were made in 250cc, 350cc and 450cc sizes. Bore centres were
almost certainly the same. A pair of carbs from any one will fit your
bike. The problem will be in sourcing a pair that doesn't need complete
renovation like the existing ones do.
I don't think the 250cc or 350cc versions were sold in the US, mind.
A quick look on eBay.com (the US site) reveals a couple of sets of 450
Rebel carbs for $250-300. That may be more than you paid for the bike,
but that's the way the world turns. Bite the bullet, buy the damn
things, and ride the bike.
And next time, if you know nothing, it's probably a good idea to get
someone who knows to ask for you, or at least do the preliminary
research.
`
Gentleman) wrote:
> ` <breoganmacbr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > He wants to be the editor of a motorcycle magazine
>
> Actually, I already have been :-)
And you got sacked, didn't you?
Mark Olson
> Snowcat <dreadlocks...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> So are you saying the carbs from a nighthawk are good?
YES
> Listen to Mark Olson. Those Honda twins, with the three valves per
> cylinder, were made in 250cc, 350cc and 450cc sizes. Bore centres were
> almost certainly the same. A pair of carbs from any one will fit your
> bike. The problem will be in sourcing a pair that doesn't need complete
> renovation like the existing ones do.
>
> I don't think the 250cc or 350cc versions were sold in the US, mind.
*Cough* the 400cc ones were, though.
> A quick look on eBay.com (the US site) reveals a couple of sets of 450
> Rebel carbs for $250-300. That may be more than you paid for the bike,
> but that's the way the world turns. Bite the bullet, buy the damn
> things, and ride the bike.
There's a 1981 CM400T on my local Craigslist right now for $199. It's
got gummed carbs for sure, but they're probably intact.
A little Googling reveals that miss Snowcat in all probability is also
a Minnesota resident- you might point your boyfriend at CL and see if
he thinks buying this as a parts donor (or, it might be better than the
bike you've already got). It's even got a title certificate, which is
nice...
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/wsh/mcy/1920214544.html
You could take a peek at the carbs before buying it, strip em off, and
sell all the rest of it and end up paying buttons for a pair of decent
carbs. It's what I would do.
`
> So are you saying the carbs from a nighthawk are good?
I don't know if they are or not, but you might try poking around in an
online parts supplier like www.powersportspro.com to see whether the
part numbers look like they even begin to match.
You cannot buy a new carburetor body (mixing chamber) for your Rebel
separately, you have to buy whole assemblies...
http://www.powersportspro.com/pages/parts/viewbybrand/7/Honda.aspx
Honda : CMX450C AC (87) MOTORCYCLE, JPN, VIN# JH2PC171-HM100001 TO
JH2PC171-HM100972
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://webservices.motorsportdealers.com/parts/partImages/HOM/2/14MM2G/ILLUST/BMM27.Gif
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Both carburetors as an assembly:
25 SKU: 16100-MM2-761
CARBURETOR ASSY. (Honda Motorcycle Code 2491868) Use up to Engine SN
2102810 $611.45
25 SKU: 16100-MM2-762
CARBURETOR ASSY. (Honda Motorcycle Code 2606564) $611.45
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just the lefthand carburetor assembly:
27 SKU: 16102-MM2-761
CARBURETOR ASSY., L. (Honda Motorcycle Code 2499903) Use up to Engine
SN VE28B A $301.56
27 SKU: 16102-MM2-762
CARBURETOR ASSY., L. (Honda Motorcycle Code 2609220) Use up to Engine
SN VE28B A $301.56
27 SKU: 16102-MM2-762
CARBURETOR ASSY., L. (Honda Motorcycle Code 2609220) Use from Engine
SN VE28B B $301.56
27 SKU: 16102-MM2-763
CARBURETOR ASSY., L. (Honda Motorcycle Code 4193744) Use up to Engine
SN VE28B A $301.56
27 SKU: 16102-MM2-763
CARBURETOR ASSY., L. (Honda Motorcycle Code 4193744) Use from Engine
SN VE28B B $301.56
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You might try websearching for the SKU number to see if anybody has a
used one for sale on ebay...
The Older Gentleman
> I don't know if they are or not, but you might try poking around in an
> online parts supplier like www.powersportspro.com to see whether the
> part numbers look like they even begin to match.
Utter waste of time.
The Older Gentleman
> *Cough* the 400cc ones were, though.
Oops, yes, forgot the 400. And I've actually owned one. Nasty thing.
The cracker was the 350 (oddly, sold as a 450 elsewhere in Europe).
http://classic-motorbikes.net/images/gallery/cb350s.jpg
You need a bigger photo to see it clearly, but that frame was an *exact*
copy of a Harris Magnum frame. The bike handled superbly - just needed
slightly stiffer suspension fore and aft.
The Older Gentleman
`
Gentleman) wrote:
> ` <breoganmacbr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > And you got sacked, didn't you?
>
> No :-)
>
> Moved onto a much better-paying job :-))
It's hard to be passionate about concentrated frozen orange juice,
though, isn't it?
And it's difficult to start an online argument concerning that
subject.
But even the most humble, out-of-production commuter bike is grist for
your mill.
The Older Gentleman
> > Moved onto a much better-paying job :-))
>
> It's hard to be passionate about concentrated frozen orange juice,
> though, isn't it?
Oh, indeed. Very nice when you and your team manage to scoop the world
with stories that are then picked up by news agencies and publications
around the globe. Even nicer when your salary reflects your ability to
manage a team that can do that.
And I can still indulge myself with bikes when I feel the urge.
Remind me, what job is it that you haven't got?
> And it's difficult to start an online argument concerning that
> subject.
Well, you're trying your best.
>
> But even the most humble, out-of-production commuter bike is grist for
> your mill.
Um, I don't think I'm arguing here, am I? Despite your best attempts
:-))
I will buy and ride just about anything I fancy. I like all bikes, with
one or two notable exceptions: Russian two-strokes and Honda CB500Ts.[1]
Face it - you're just a bitter old man who gets ticked off when your
so-called technical advice is exposed as useless. :-)
[1] Really sorry about that. I'd love to say that any and every bike is
fun, and even I can kindle enthusiasm for old Commie machinery like
Jawas and MZs and Ural/Dnepr flat twins, but there are limits.
Snowcat
>
>> Since he doesn't
>> do Hondas he sent it to his buddy who is supossedly a guru.
>
>Ha! Heard that before.
>
>>He says the carbs(
>> or just the left one) is so badly pitted there is no saving it, he tried
and
>> has obviously failed.
>
>Well, here's a thing. What's pitted? I assume he means corroded. That's
>possible, but it would have to be appalling to be unrecoverable.
>Assuming you can ultrasound the carbs, then the rest is new jets,
>needles, O-rings and the like.
>
>
>>The only reason I'm doing some investigating myself is
>> cause I WANT TO RIDE MY BIKE, damn it. My plan was to forward ideas to
them,
>> not do this myself.
>>
>> So are you saying the carbs from a nighthawk are good?
>
>Listen to Mark Olson. Those Honda twins, with the three valves per
>cylinder, were made in 250cc, 350cc and 450cc sizes. Bore centres were
>almost certainly the same. A pair of carbs from any one will fit your
>bike. The problem will be in sourcing a pair that doesn't need complete
>renovation like the existing ones do.
>
>I don't think the 250cc or 350cc versions were sold in the US, mind.
>
>Rebel carbs for $250-300. That may be more than you paid for the bike,
>but that's the way the world turns. Bite the bullet, buy the damn
>things, and ride the bike.
>
>
And next time, if you know nothing, it's probably a good idea to get
>someone who knows to ask for you, or at least do the preliminary
>research.
Wow, what a guy! How do you expect people to learn? You sound more like you
should be on some chick forum, MEEEow, hiss hiss.
To all you other guys...thanks for your help.
>
>
--
The Older Gentleman
> And next time, if you know nothing, it's probably a good idea to get
> >someone who knows to ask for you, or at least do the preliminary
> >research.
>
>
> Wow, what a guy! How do you expect people to learn? You sound more like you
> should be on some chick forum, MEEEow, hiss hiss.
It was good advice, and given with the best of intentions. So's the rest
of it. If you don't like the truth of it... *shrug*.
Even if you know nothing about the bike you've bought, you should have
been able to see that there are two, count 'em, two, carburettors on it.
Asking if a pair of carbs from a Honda 250 twin would fit might have
made better sense.
Messing with a bikes is a learning process that lasts for as long as you
do it. And everyone screws up in the early stages.
Incidentally, buying a skanky old bike that's been sitting around for a
decade and a half, and expecting it to be fixable for next to no cash,
is a mistake most of us have made at one stage or another. It just
doesn't work like that unless you're amazingy lucky.
Anyway, you've been given plenty of advice on how best to sort them, and
you've been pointed in the direction of repalcement carbs. Your call
now.
`
Gentleman) wrote:
> ` <breoganmacbr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > It's hard to be passionate about concentrated frozen orange juice,
> > though, isn't it?
>
> Oh, indeed. Very nice when you and your team manage to scoop the world
> with stories that are then picked up by news agencies and publications
> around the globe. Even nicer when your salary reflects your ability to
> manage a team that can do that.
Go suck on a dehydrated persimmon.
The Older Gentleman
bye4now
> I have a Honda Rebel 450. The carb has been rebuilt (3X) but the same issue
> still persists. I apparently need a new carb, this one has too much corrosion.
> Can I use new 250 rebel carb on this 1987 with no adaptation issues or are
> they completely different?
>
> --
Well, i'm not sure actually. You might have to go to an experienced
mechanic with this question?