Learning to Race... Suggestions?
Dragonfly
was looking for so I thought I'd post and ask :)
I am a fairly new motorcycle rider, been riding for about two and a
half years, or around 20,000 miles (I ride year-round, and every day..
no car!). I've done the MSF course, and I've read a handful of how-to
books, including proficient motorcycling and twist of the wrist I &
II. I have a two-mile stretch of twisty road that I ride everyday to
work, and I've been trying to practice those skills the books talk
about, esp the twist of the wrist ones, but I want more. More! :P
I want to race. I don't give a shit about winning, or ever making it
to the "big league" racing competitions. I just want to have fun,
learn to ride as well as I can, and go fast somewhere safe with the
added thrill of competing against others. I want to be the absolute
best rider I can be, on race tracks and on roads, but I'm not exactly
sure how to go about it, or what else to try that might help.
Here's what I've been thinking:
get a ninja 250, firstly, since my ZR550 is a bit heavy and too
tricked out for touring and not reliable enough to race. The baby
ninja, I figure, is lightweight, very flickable, and has a riding
position much closer to a real sportbike than my zephyr's pretty
upright, standard riding position.
I'd take the ninja to the very twisty, near-deserted mountain roads
around where I live, and start riding twisties to practice what the
books talk about, slowly increasing my speed as I get more comfortable
with the exercises.
Then, when I can afford both the cost and the time off (likely, not
til after I get my B.S., since now that I'm upperclass, the courses
are actually challenging!) I'll go do a few courses at the California
Superbike school. Doing classes there has been one of my goals since
long before I got my first bike... And from what I hear, they are
excellent! But, much more expensive than I could ever afford anytime
soon...
Any suggestions on what else to do? Is what I've got in mind a good
idea, or am I totally off? Anyone have their experiences learning to
ride well and learning to race that they could share?
I don't know anyone who races bikes, and my partner, although he is a
damned good rider, is not comfortable with trying to teach me what he
knows. Not that I blame him :) Its from following in his tire tracks
that I finally lost the last of my fear and started getting an idea of
just how to ride beyond city streets and freeways, but he's not a
racer and likely never will be.
If it helps, I live in Northern California, nearly to the Oregon
border, and the closest track I know of is Sears Point. I got to go
to my first live race in May, which only made me even more wanting to
race. I've asked around here, but haven't turned up anyone who races
or even many who actually ride something other than cruisers. Which
is too bad because it seems like I learn to ride a lot better from
following someone than from practicing on my own, or such has been my
experience thus far.
I mean to get a real, powerful sportbike eventually, but the pretty
bodywork is so expensive to replace! Not to mention I kinda like the
idea of learning on something that's not as prone to reacting in a
lethal manner to newbie mistakes... :D Seriously, I don't think I'd
need the excessive power of a sportbike while I'm still learning to
corner and lean and other such basic skills, which is what made me
want to gte the baby ninja. I've also heard that there's races
specifically for 250s also, which is what I figured I'd start with.
*Dragonfly*
http://dragonflychaos.deviantart.com/
http://glitterychaos.livejournal.com/
BryanUT
"Dragonfly" <snow_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1185068429....@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
http://www.utahsba.com/schools/
http://www.utahsba.com/racing/nrc/
You might want to try a local track day. That will be a real eye opener.
And you might want to take a class from one of these guys:
http://www.fastfreddie.com/
http://www.superbikeschool.com/
If you can't afford this training you might find you can't afford to race.
And don't use the streets as a practice track.
Russell Watson
wrote:
While you can certainly hone your riding skills on the road no
responsible person is going to tell you it's OK to practice racing on
public roads. It's a good way to end up a statistic and a good way to
hurt someone other than yourself in the process. If you are riding on
public roads above the posted speed limits you are doing wrong,
period.
Is there anywhere near you that has a big parking lot that is deserted
in the evenings or on weekends? If so, you can buy those little orange
traffic cones that are used to save parking spots and lay out your own
rough course in a parking lot to practice on. When I got back into
rding after being off a bike for a few years I took advantage of the
fact that my company lot is deserted on Saturdays and laid out a rough
facsimile of the course you have to complete to get a license in my
state and rode it until I could do it perfectly on my Harley Fatboy,
despite the fact that it's designed to be run by people on Honda Rebel
250s.
Also, books and videos are good reference materials, but there is no
substitute for a real racing school, and until such time as you
complete one satisfactorily you aren't going to be licensed to race,
anyway. Chances are when you do go to a school they will be teaching
different techniques or variations on the ones you have "taught"
yourself through books, which will only cause you to have to "unlearn"
a bunch of stuff. Best concentrate on your road riding proficiency and
save all track style riding until you have access to a real track. You
are already doing yourself well by being a daily rather than
occasional rider. More hours in the saddle lead to better skills.
T3
"Dragonfly" <snow_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1185068429....@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> was looking for so I thought I'd post and ask :)
Tweak, you wanna help this boy out?
Andrew
news:46a37b61$0$30619$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Boy or Girl?
I just assumed it was a woman.
--
Andrew
00 Daytona
00 Speed Triple
71 Kawi H1
05 Infant
T3
"Andrew" <yogig.no.sp...@hotmail.nospamm.com> wrote in message
news:5ghgeqF...@mid.individual.net...
> "T3" <not...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
> news:46a37b61$0$30619$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
>>
>> "Dragonfly" <snow_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1185068429....@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>> Hiya, been reading here for a month or so, but not yet found what I
>>> was looking for so I thought I'd post and ask :)
>> {snipped}
>>
>> Tweak, you wanna help this boy out?
>>
>
>
> Boy or Girl?
> I just assumed it was a woman.
Heh, it doesn't really matter, does it?
Dragonfly
> While you can certainly hone your riding skills on the road no
> responsible person is going to tell you it's OK to practice racing on
> public roads. It's a good way to end up a statistic and a good way to
> hurt someone other than yourself in the process. If you are riding on
> public roads above the posted speed limits you are doing wrong,
> period.
Oh, I meant hone my riding skills on the road, not race. I like
having a license, and I'd rather keep my pretty face and soft female
curves in one piece, thanksverymuch. I don't look good wearing
asphalt! I grew up and learned to ride in the Bay Area. I've seen
the infamous squids on hwy 9 and 35 and 84, both before and after
splattering; some of my friends are volunteer firefighters who respond
to such crashes in the Santa Cruz mountains and I've had earfuls of it
from them and from my EMT teacher as well. Not to mention my loving
partner, who's first words to me when we met were "you're not riding
on MY bike without riding pants!!" To be fair, I had no clue, but I
sure do now...
But on my daily commute, I don't see much opportunity to push myself
and my bike. That's part of the reason I've started taking the side-
road instead of heading straight for the freeway. In my two years of
riding, I can count on two hands the number of times I've ridden a
road more twisty than city streets...
> Is there anywhere near you that has a big parking lot that is deserted
> in the evenings or on weekends? If so, you can buy those little orange
> traffic cones that are used to save parking spots and lay out your own
> rough course in a parking lot to practice on. When I got back into
> rding after being off a bike for a few years I took advantage of the
> fact that my company lot is deserted on Saturdays and laid out a rough
> facsimile of the course you have to complete to get a license in my
> state and rode it until I could do it perfectly on my Harley Fatboy,
> despite the fact that it's designed to be run by people on Honda Rebel
> 250s.
Now that's something I hadn't thought of. When I first got my bike
and started learning to ride, I lived in Monterey, about three miles
or so from the abandonned fort ord lands, with huge sections of
abandonned pavement. I built tracks with plastic cups weighted with
pebbles and rode tracks of increasing difficulty... for I think it was
three months before I ever rode even the mostly-abandonned roads
around there. It was a much more relaxed learning curve than heading
straight for the road, and much easier to learn than the bs MSF course
I had taken...
I hadn't thought of going back to the abandonned lots, but I'll bet I
could set up tracks that I'd find challenging. Now, to find such a
place around here... Easier said than done, but there's got to be
empty parking lots somewhere.
> Also, books and videos are good reference materials, but there is no
> substitute for a real racing school, and until such time as you
> complete one satisfactorily you aren't going to be licensed to race,
> anyway. Chances are when you do go to a school they will be teaching
> different techniques or variations on the ones you have "taught"
> yourself through books, which will only cause you to have to "unlearn"
> a bunch of stuff. Best concentrate on your road riding proficiency and
> save all track style riding until you have access to a real track. You
> are already doing yourself well by being a daily rather than
> occasional rider. More hours in the saddle lead to better skills.
That's what I was thinking, more miles on two wheels can't hurt, I
think. I absolutely will take professional racing courses, no doubt.
But it will have to wait for a few more years, unless I can get hired
as temp summer help and get paid in track time, might be something I
could look into actually, hadn't thought of that..
The books I am reading are road-riding books (mostly, twist of the
wrist seems to be applicable to both...). I wasn't sure how much
overlap there is between road riding skills and racing skills. If
there's too much overlap, it'll be harder to learn to race the better
a road rider I am, I think...
Racing aside, work would be unbearable except for the joy of riding
there and back, even in the middle of winter, so me riding daily was
never an issue regardless of whether I decided to learn to race or
not. The only time I didn't ride to work was the two days this past
winter where the roads froze over and my partner swore if I tried to
ride to work, he'd snatch my keys and lock me in the house...
*amused* Live to ride, literally. Nothing else in the world is even
a match for the joy of riding.
At the very least, I can ride mountain roads more (and with the foot
of the cascades only a few miles away, I have no excuse!), it'll build
up my confidence in myself and my bike and that can only help on the
racetrack.
Thanks!
Russell Watson
wrote:
Sounds like you have the right mindset. I know where you're coming
from on the ride to work thing. I have a view of the employee parking
lot from my office and I park my bike where I can see it. If I get too
aggravated during the day I look out there and think about the ride
home and it helps a lot.
Thanks for clearing up the gender thing, you had some people wondering
(see responses to your original post)!
BTW, your photos on the websight are really nice. Do you do anything
besides sky shots?
Alexey
the Bay Area. I think the closest track to you is Thunderhill, which
is a fairly challenging, but fun and fast course. Couple of things
I'd say right off the bat: racing is about much more than just your
riding skills. It sounds like you're infatuated with the sport as a
whole and you are determined to learn, which is great. But I think
you're coming to a kind of crossroads: do you want to work on just
your riding abilities or do you specifically want to compete? The
answer to this question is important. Here's why:
If you just want to work on your riding:
Do trackdays. It's that simple. You can get any cheap and reliable
sport(y) bike you want, such as the Ninja 250 you're considering. You
won't need to worry about your actual laptimes or how you measure up
to any one rider, just focus on your own progress on your own time.
It's a lot of fun and it's certainly cheaper than racing. And don't
misunderstand, racing is not "above" trackdays. I've seen some
phenomenally fast people at trackdays that blew the doors off me.
If you want to compete:
1. You'll really need to have prior track experience, meaning a
school or at the very least trackdays will be almost mandatory. If
you go into racing while still learning the basics of riding on a
track, I guarantee you, you won't have any fun with it. So the first
lesson is to get at least a modicum of track background. I'd
recommend a solid season of trackdays and a school would be really
nice. If you're clever and patient enough, take the time you spend on
the track to apply the principles you've read in the books,
systematically working on different weak points that you might
discover. And trust me, you'll find yourself doing all sorts of
things wrong that the street just doesn't allow you to see.
2. You'll need to figure out all the logistics of racing. It sounds
simple (prepare the bike, show up, do the practice sessions in the
morning, and race), but it can be overwhelming and it can leave you
feeling like you're not getting enough out of the limited non-
competitive track time that you get. Again, supplement that time with
trackdays, particularly if one is available just before the weekend of
racing. AFM races on Sundays, with Saturdays allocated for practice,
I believe. CCS races Saturdays and Sundays, so you'd want to see if a
Friday is available as a trackday. Learn to prepare the bike properly
(beyond the minimum required by tech inspection). Learn the routine
of the weekends. Learn how your body reacts to various stressors:
driving, early mornings, the heat, the noise, etc. Learn what kind of
physical conditioning you might want to undertake (you'll figure it
out from trackdays once you begin to pick up the pace) -- it might be
strength, or endurance, or flexibility. To do this stuff, I'd
recommend that while you're taking a year to do trackdays, you also
might want to go hang out at some race weekends and observe. You can
do this in the capacity of a corner worker, or a fan, or maybe you can
find someone who more or less knows what they're doing and offer to
tag along and help. Check out BARF: http://bayarearidersforum.com
It's full of racers and people with track experience. You'll have no
trouble getting more answers to your questions or finding someone
who'd be willing to have you help in the pits.
3. As an offshoot from 2, learn to wrench. If you don't have this
capability now, find a basic motorcycle maintenance course (I took one
in NYC in Queens Community College). Depending on the format and
length of the class, you might be able to speak to the instructor to
let them know that you're specifically looking for a racing oriented
approach.
4. Budget and start saving up. It sounds like you're in the middle of
some intensive college work. Obviously, right now you have neither
the time nor the means to plunge into the racing game. But that
doesn't mean that you can't already begin to draw up some realistic
goals and time lines. Once you figure out a bit about what racing is
like by observing events and talking to people, you'll get an idea of
different classes that are available and different costs associated
with them. I've never raced AFM, but I raced middleweight and
lightweight classes in CCS. Lightweight and middleweight categories
probably present the biggest difference in expenses you can think of.
In lightweight, I raced sportsman, superbike, and GP on a built up
EX500 that I purchased with lots of spares (engine, wheels, wiring,
etc. etc.) for $2600. The bike wasn't very competitive against
SV650's in superbike and GP (that challenge was kind of fun in
itself), but sportsman was just fine. Tires lasted forever. It was a
lot of fun. I've also raced an F3 and now an F4i in middleweight
superbike and GP classes. A modern 600 is significantly harder on
tires, which will probably be the most immediate impact on your
wallet. Additionally, the bike itself is more expensive, and more
sensitive to suspension improvements. I would probably suggest
looking around for a good deal on an SV650 race bike. Building a
track bike yourself can be extremely costly compared to buying a 3 or
4 year old race bike that someone already put the money into and
worked the kinks out of. Figure out the ballpark of how much it will
cost you up front to get everything you need (bike, spares, stands,
transport vehicle/trailer, tools, health insurance, racing license,
gear). Then do the math on how much it might cost you per weekend
(bike prep, entry fees, gas, tires and other consumables, motel/
camping, food, etc.). Also draw up "crash scenario" budget for how
much it might cost you if you broke some common parts on the bike
(levers, bars, pegs, frame sliders, engine side covers, etc.). With
all those figures, look at the racing schedules and figure out how
many events you'd like to attempt in your first year of racing. It's
perfectly reasonable to shoot for maybe half a season of racing and
maybe some trackdays. If you feel up to it physically, use longer (20
min endurance) races as a good way to get additional track time.
As you can see, there's a lot of stuff to think about here. Racing is
a hobby, just like trackdays, but if you want to do it right in a safe
and fun way, you do need to take it a bit more seriously. Otherwise
you won't get enough out of it to justify all the hoops you'll be
jumping through. Here are some links:
http://ccsracing.com/
http://www.afmracing.org/
http://bayarearidersforum.com/
Dragonfly
> I've been racing on and off since 2000, including 4 years living in
> the Bay Area. I think the closest track to you is Thunderhill, which
> is a fairly challenging, but fun and fast course. Couple of things
> I'd say right off the bat: racing is about much more than just your
> riding skills. It sounds like you're infatuated with the sport as a
> whole and you are determined to learn, which is great. But I think
> you're coming to a kind of crossroads: do you want to work on just
> your riding abilities or do you specifically want to compete? The
> answer to this question is important. Here's why:
>
> If you just want to work on your riding:
> Do trackdays. It's that simple.
<cuts VERY useful info>
Wow. Thank you SO much! You've raised questions that had never
occured to me and that was exactly what I was hoping for, not to
mention the oh-so-useful information that really helps me right now.
Thanks! (I've gotten used to, offline at least, not being taken
seriously, so I expected the same here in spite of not being glaringly
young and very obviously female, like I am offline....)
I read bits of your post to my partner, and he cleared up some
misconceptions I had about trackdays, insofar as the amount of risk
that is involved. I assumed it would be much like riding was before I
learned to ride popular Bay Area roads ONLY on weekday mornings (ie.
surrounded by cocky teenage boys with shiny new toys, desperately
trying to turn themselves into bloody chunks of meat...) He also
pointed out that there is a very strong motivation for those putting
on track days to ensure that cocky unsafe riders are yanked off-track
before someone gets hurt and sues.... Ack, assumptions are not
good.
As far as learning to wrench, I'm going to learn whether I like it or
not, thanks to my having forgotten to check the oil level before going
on a 600+mile road trip... OOPS! I'm told that it was impressive
just how badly I siezed my engine... Thankfully, I DO like it.
*grins* I broke it, I fix it, sez the resident mechanic. I hadn't
thought of that being a valuable asset for racing, but I can see how
it would be much simpler and cheaper for me to be able to work on my
own bike rather than paying a mechanic to follow me around from track
to track. Not to mention, if I got good at wrenching, it would lead
to me being able to fine-tune my bike to handle predictably, the way I
want it to, on the track. I think.
I now want to go to a track day, badly! Now I just need a bike that
won't break my heart if it gets taken home from the trackday in boxes
and trashbags... :o And possibly, leather form-fitting gear to
replace my closet-full of cordura commuting gear. Although my gear
certainly has its place (all-weather, literally, I've gear warm enough
for Alaska all the way down to mesh semi-desert gear, but no leather
except in gloves and boots), I am thinking it won't be adequate on a
racetrack...?
That said, does anyone have a link handy, with the meanings of and
expected reactions to flags used during motorcycle races? I vaguely
remember seeing many different colored flags at my first visit to
Sears Point in May, but I was too entranced by the roaring bikes
flashing past me at ungodly speeds... :D
Which brings me to my next question: are there generally-accepted
rules for trackdays, or does each track have its own rules?
Gah, and now I have to go find my brain and think about the questions
you raised. Most importantly, is it just the skill I want, or the
competition? I never thought that far. Assuming the economy doesn't
blow up too badly, my uni degree will make things like racing for fun
relatively easy, as far as my bank account and wallet are concerned.
I already know that I can get plenty serious enough when its for
something I really want, or I never would have made it past my
stupidly-backwards sexist family to get a motorcycle at all. So
really, its just a matter of how much time and energy I want to devote
to this. I really, honestly do not know. But I'll bet finding that
out will be loads of fun!
Oh yea. And an even more important factor than what I want is just
how much energy the disease I have will allow me in the years to
come... Which makes me wonder, are there physical/medical
requirements for racing?
You've given me a lot to think about here, and that makes me very
happy :)
Dragonfly
Dragonfly
> > >> Tweak, you wanna help this boy out?
>
> > > Boy or Girl?
> > > I just assumed it was a woman.
>
> > Heh, it doesn't really matter, does it?
>
> Nope, I got smoked by a chick a few weeks ago.
I'm female, physically at least... *amused!*
> I don't have much info about that area, wrong side of the continent.
> However, a brief glance at Infinion's website turned up this gem:
>
> http://www.afmracing.org/newracers.html?newracers
>
> I would pick up a SV650 instead of the Ninjette and go race their
> clubman series.
>
> --
> Tweak
Thanks for the link, I went and asked for their new racer info packet.
Why an SV instead of the ninja? Not that I don't like the SV, I
actually had decided on an older SV650 (2004 I think?) to replace my
ZR550 when the insurance company tried to tell me the bike was
totalled over cosmetic damage... It would have been a small upgrade,
power and handling wise, from my bike, but essentially the same type
of ride, and one I really like. I din't think people raced them,
though. At least not in the States, I know ZR400s get raced a lot in
Japan..
Dragonfly
Dragonfly
> On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 04:25:01 -0000, Dragonfly <snow_fi...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> Sounds like you have the right mindset. I know where you're coming
> from on the ride to work thing. I have a view of the employee parking
> lot from my office and I park my bike where I can see it. If I get too
> aggravated during the day I look out there and think about the ride
> home and it helps a lot.
Exactly. And since I tend to work with dumbfucks (scuse me...), its
been my sanity's salvation. It also got my foot in the door during a
job interview; my helmet sparked a conversation about risk management
that led to being offered a job I didn't qualify for, experience-
wise.
I didn't used to be quite so, ahh, mature. The first day I got my
riding permit, I ran to the mountains on a friend's bike and nearly
got myself smeared across the side of a cliff. Yikes... The car
crash I had just before getting my own bike woke me up abruptly,
without anyone but myself getting hurt, thankfully...
> Thanks for clearing up the gender thing, you had some people wondering
> (see responses to your original post)!
> BTW, your photos on the websight are really nice. Do you do anything
> besides sky shots?
I get told I come off strange for a female, online, its not the first
time people are confused. In person, there's no doubt though, I long
outgrew my ability to pass as a boy :D
I have a few hundred photos on an external drive, and if ever I
remember to plug it in and process the photos, I'll have more
diversity. But I tend to like odd things in my photos, abandonned man-
made things that look post-apocolyptical, wide sweeping panoramas of
uninhabited mountains and valleys, close-up bits of plant and animal
life most people never see, though I need a better macro lens for
those really. Definitely not the typical type of photos. I'll get
around to posting more, eventually. Its too bright and sunny outside
to want to stare at a computer screen for long though.
Dragonfly
Russell Watson
wrote:
SV650 is the shiznik, sister! "Motorcyclist" magazine has given it the
"Best Bang for the Buck" award in their annual ratings since it came
out. I think you would find it to be quite a bit more than a "small
upgrade" power-wise from your ZR550, though the handling and ergos
might indeed be similar. One remark you commonly hear about the SV is
that it's a bike you have to work at NOT wheelying on take off. That
v-twin has some grunt. Despite being "only" a 650 AND being dirt
cheap, it's almost too much motorcycle to be a beginner bike, which is
the class almost anything below a liter gets dumped into nowadays,
especially a naked "standard". It was on my short list of potential
bikes when I went shopping, before I got taken in by a price I thought
was too good to pass up and bought the Harley I had wanted since I was
a kid 40 years ago. All I will say about how that turned out is that I
have now had 3 of them: first, last, and only.
bsr...@my-deja.com
If you are looking for a track bike you might want to check at your
local club races. Here we have a "production twins" class that is
pretty much owned by the EX500. The bikes are very inexpensive and
are often offered for sale in track ready condition. The SV650 is
nice but it will be more expensive and more of a handful to ride.
Other options might be a CB-1 or FZ400, both of which can often be
found cheap at the track.
Just what size are you anyway?
You might find a few things of interest here
Bruce
j doll
"Tweak" <new...@keslers.removethistosend.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.2117b6eb9...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <1185671657.0...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> snow_...@yahoo.com says...>><Snip>
>> Why an SV instead of the ninja? Not that I don't like the SV, I
>> actually had decided on an older SV650 (2004 I think?) to replace my
>> ZR550 when the insurance company tried to tell me the bike was
>> totalled over cosmetic damage... It would have been a small upgrade,
>> power and handling wise, from my bike, but essentially the same type
>> of ride, and one I really like. I din't think people raced them,
>> though. At least not in the States, I know ZR400s get raced a lot in
>> Japan..
>>
>> Dragonfly
>
> won't be any 250 Ninjas, maybe a handful of EX/GS500s. This begins to
> matter when you want set up advice, spare parts after a crash, cheap
> takeoffs, etc. etc..
>
> There are used track prepped SVs out there in abundance, and a first gen
> can be had pretty cheaply.
Dragonfly,
Don't let the East Coast bias make up your mind about what to buy. Go to the
races and see what is being ridden.You don't want to be the only person
riding the bike you choose, but don't buy in a vacuum. Do some looking
250 and 500 Ninjas are rare back East because the rules aren't friendly to
them as well as the tracks.
RA is very fast. On the other hand Sears Point (Infinion) isn't. And from
what I gather Thunderhill and Buttonwillow aren't. Horses for courses.
There's alot to be said about learning to ride a slow bike fast. Don't buy
too much performance to start with...
>
>
>
> --
> Tweak
T3
"j doll" <jd...@jvlnet.com> wrote in message
news:WaGdnZCnFqLFiTPb...@jvlnet.com...
I didn't see any bias in that, SV's are everywhere, fairly cheap and easy to
set up, what's not to like?
> RA is very fast. On the other hand Sears Point (Infinion) isn't. And from
> what I gather Thunderhill and Buttonwillow aren't. Horses for courses.
> There's alot to be said about learning to ride a slow bike fast. Don't buy
> too much performance to start with...
She just got some damn good advice from the one guy in this group that knows
about track days and club racing in the states, hopefully she'll recognize
it, if not, oh well...
sturd
> She just got some damn good advice from the one guy in this group that knows
> about track days and club racing in the states
Gee, I didn't realize there was only one.
Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.
T3
"sturd" <mikestur...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185828986....@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> T3 insists:
>
>> She just got some damn good advice from the one guy in this group that
>> knows
>> about track days and club racing in the states
>
> Gee, I didn't realize there was only one.
Only one I know of and from what I hear, not too shabby a one either...
Champ
<new...@keslers.removethistosend.net> wrote:
>They will also blow by on every straight, then proceed to park, get out
>their walker and limp around the corner. After you exit the corner two
>more inlines will blow by, and do the same thing at the next corner.
heh. Happens in the uk too.
>Repeat ad nauseum all day long. It's better in the advanced groups, but
>mighty frustrating for a beginner with strict passing rules.
You have passing rules on track days?
--
Champ
DaveW
sturd
> You have passing rules on track days?
Around here, some sessions yes. Slow and beginner
sessions. Faster sessions there are not passing rules
except a reminder "it's just a track day".
bsr...@my-deja.com
> "sturd" <mikesturdevant...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Thank you for the compliment ;-) I reccomended she check out the
local club races because the best choice will depend on what is being
run in her area. I leaned toward the smaller bikes because big fast
bikes are counter productive to learning how to ride fast. They
encourage just the kind of behavior Tweak wrote about, screaming down
the straights and tippy toeing through the turns. The SV is not big
but it is not small or slow either.
Bruce
j doll
>
> "j doll" <jd...@jvlnet.com> wrote in message
> news:WaGdnZCnFqLFiTPb...@jvlnet.com...
>>
>> "Tweak" <new...@keslers.removethistosend.net> wrote in message
>> news:MPG.2117b6eb9...@news.giganews.com...
>>> In article <1185671657.0...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>>> snow_...@yahoo.com says...
>>>> On Jul 23, 6:39 am, Tweak <new...@keslers.removethistosend.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>><Snip>
>>
>> the races and see what is being ridden.You don't want to be the only
>> person riding the bike you choose, but don't buy in a vacuum. Do some
>> looking
>> 250 and 500 Ninjas are rare back East because the rules aren't friendly
>> to them as well as the tracks.
>
>
> I didn't see any bias in that, SV's are everywhere, fairly cheap and easy
> to set up, what's not to like?
250 Ninjettes are cheap and plentiful out west due to some classes build
around them.In the southeast that isn't the case
To dismiss them due to the fact that you don't see them is a narrow minded
attitude.Not every club in the US runs the same rules.
AFM is very different than CCS or WERA
Champ
<shrug>
UK track days usually just have a "2 warm up laps, no passing rule",
or similar. I've never heard a "no passing in corners" rule before.
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk
Alexey
> Wow. Thank you SO much! You've raised questions that had never
> occured to me and that was exactly what I was hoping for, not to
> mention the oh-so-useful information that really helps me right now.
> Thanks! (I've gotten used to, offline at least, not being taken
> seriously, so I expected the same here in spite of not being glaringly
> young and very obviously female, like I am offline....)
Thanks for reading, I'm glad to help with whatever knowledge I can
provide. I'm sure you'll find a few bad apples at the track, but by
and large, to most people who've turned more than a few laps, a rider
is a rider.
> I read bits of your post to my partner, and he cleared up some
> misconceptions I had about trackdays, insofar as the amount of risk
> that is involved. I assumed it would be much like riding was before I
> learned to ride popular Bay Area roads ONLY on weekday mornings (ie.
> surrounded by cocky teenage boys with shiny new toys, desperately
> trying to turn themselves into bloody chunks of meat...) He also
> pointed out that there is a very strong motivation for those putting
> on track days to ensure that cocky unsafe riders are yanked off-track
> before someone gets hurt and sues.... Ack, assumptions are not
> good.
True enough.
> As far as learning to wrench, I'm going to learn whether I like it or
> not, thanks to my having forgotten to check the oil level before going
> on a 600+mile road trip... OOPS! I'm told that it was impressive
> just how badly I siezed my engine... Thankfully, I DO like it.
> *grins* I broke it, I fix it, sez the resident mechanic. I hadn't
> thought of that being a valuable asset for racing, but I can see how
> it would be much simpler and cheaper for me to be able to work on my
> own bike rather than paying a mechanic to follow me around from track
> to track. Not to mention, if I got good at wrenching, it would lead
> to me being able to fine-tune my bike to handle predictably, the way I
> want it to, on the track. I think.
Absolutely, wrenching will make it cheaper. It will also, believe it
or not, make it safer. Not to come down on any bike shops, but I
would not want to entrust a race bike to a common shop, whose
mechanics typically are preoccupied with getting as many bikes out the
door in a day as possible. There are certainly shops that specialize
in track bikes, detailed suspension work and the like, but most
people, even with sufficient means, can't really afford them on a
regular basis. Besides, they usually don't have very accessible
schedules anyway, as they're often busy racing themselves. And last,
but not least, once you start turning wrenches on your equipment,
it'll kind of demystify the whole technical aspect of it. Sure, it
can be a steep learning curve at first, but once you become proficient
at using tools, assemble enough of a tool set, and fix enough stuff
that you'll inevitably break in the beginning, you'll see that coming
home with a broken bike doesn't have to be the disaster of a life
time.
Last year, I managed to put myself and the bike into an airfence,
having gone down at about 90 mph. Luckily, I walked away from it with
a bit of a stiff back, but at first glance, the bike looked awful:
broken bodywork, ripped off frame slider, bent exhaust, broken hand
controls, etc. But you learn not to give up. I went through my box
of spares and my single pit crew member and I managed to put the bike
back together to race that weekend and we ended up coming home with 3
podium finishes. And that's racing in a nutshell: the lows are very
low and the highs are very high.
> I now want to go to a track day, badly! Now I just need a bike that
> won't break my heart if it gets taken home from the trackday in boxes
> and trashbags... :o And possibly, leather form-fitting gear to
> replace my closet-full of cordura commuting gear. Although my gear
> certainly has its place (all-weather, literally, I've gear warm enough
> for Alaska all the way down to mesh semi-desert gear, but no leather
> except in gloves and boots), I am thinking it won't be adequate on a
> racetrack...?
Yeah, you'll want a leather suit. Some trackday organizers allow two-
piece suits as long as jacket and pants zip together. But a one-piece
is better I think. It'll have less of a chance of separating in a
slide and, seeing as you already have adequate street riding gear, you
might as well go for something that you can use with any trackday or
racing organization, no questions asked. The requirements for racing
are typically:
* SNELL approved full face helmet
* leather suit
* gloves that cover your wrist
* boots that cover your ankles
* not required, but really should be: a back protector
Without getting into the whole custom leathers territory, you can
probably acquire all of those items (without the helmet) for about
$1000.
> That said, does anyone have a link handy, with the meanings of and
> expected reactions to flags used during motorcycle races? I vaguely
> remember seeing many different colored flags at my first visit to
> Sears Point in May, but I was too entranced by the roaring bikes
> flashing past me at ungodly speeds... :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racing_flags
Bikes tend to use only these flags:
at start/finish straight:
* green
* black
* meatball (black with orange circle)
* white
* checkered
at local flag stations:
* yellow (stationary or waving)
* debris
* ambulance
* blue (only at professional events)
at all stations simultaneously:
* red
The red flag tells the riders that the session/race is terminated
immediately and everyone need to slow down and proceed into the pits.
Passing under red flag is typically prohibited, even though the lap
doesn't count if it's in the context of a race. I've seen one
trackday organizer do this somewhat differently, where they used a
black flag displayed everywhere to relay this message and their red
flag meant "coast to a stop as soon as possible without going into the
pits". This was the source of some confusion. Basically, while the
meaning of most flags tends to stay the same, one should always pay
attention at the riders meeting when any inconsistencies or changes
are explained for the day.
Waving yellow means there is an incident and most likely something is
still on the racing surface (crashed bike, rider, debris, bike off
pace, etc.). A debris flag may also be used to indicate debris in
conjunction with the yellow. A yellow always means that passing is
prohibited until the scene of the incident (it does not necessarily
mean you have to slow down though).
A stationary yellow means there's either an incident that's not on or
close to the racing surface, or there is a waving yellow at the next
flag station. A typical scenario might play out like this:
1. rider crashes in turn 4, bike ends up in the crash zone, rider on
the track
2. waving yellow comes out at turn 4 flag station
stationary yellow comes out at turn 3 flag station
3. rider gets up unhurt and goes to pick up the bike
4. waving yellow changes to stationary at turn 4
stationary yellow goes away at turn 3
5. rider pushes the bike away from the crash zone with the help of the
cornerworkers and waits for the session to be over in a safe spot
6. stationary yellow at turn 4 goes away
> Which brings me to my next question: are there generally-accepted
> rules for trackdays, or does each track have its own rules?
Typically, a trackday will have grouping of riders from "slowest" to
"fastest", usually as 2 or 3 groups. While the average lap times in
fact are lower in the "faster" groups, the rules are also a bit
different. I tend to think of it not as "slow" through "fast", but
more like "play nice" through "anything goes". In the "play nice"
group, they'll usually do this:
* no inside passing
* some minimal distance between passer and passee
"Anything goes" is pretty much just that as long as you are
predictable and not out of control, especially if there's a middle
group available. Racing is just like the "anything goes" group. It's
very rare for someone to be sited for overly aggressive riding at a
race meet. At your first race, you'll quite likely get lapped by the
race leaders so close you'll be able to read their VIN's on the frames
(another reason not to get into racing until you're ready). Vintage
racers and side cars tend to police aggressive riding a bit more
stringently.
In general though, everyone at all times must abide by a few common
safety rules:
1. passer is 100% responsible for the safety of the attempted pass
(unless the passee does something totally unpredictable)
2. must enter and exit the track in accordance with whatever procedure
that particular track has (configuration dictates the policy)
3. must signal intent to exit the track in advance and possibly ride a
different line (as per 2.)
4. must obey the flags and cornerworkers (if they tell you to leave
the bike laying on its side spilling fluids after a crash, you do it)
5. not a rule, but is nice to do: wave to the cornerworkers on the
cool-down lap (they tend to work for free out of the love for the
sport) and any spectators that might be there
6. make it blatantly obvious to the tech inspectors that you've taken
care of your bike prep: clean, safety wiring is a good sign, even if
not required, as little duct tape and zip ties holding major
components together as possible :)
> Gah, and now I have to go find my brain and think about the questions
> you raised. Most importantly, is it just the skill I want, or the
> competition? I never thought that far. Assuming the economy doesn't
> blow up too badly, my uni degree will make things like racing for fun
> relatively easy, as far as my bank account and wallet are concerned.
> I already know that I can get plenty serious enough when its for
> something I really want, or I never would have made it past my
> stupidly-backwards sexist family to get a motorcycle at all. So
> really, its just a matter of how much time and energy I want to devote
> to this. I really, honestly do not know. But I'll bet finding that
> out will be loads of fun!
I heard the statistic that an average club racer burns out after 4
years, which seems about right from what I've seen. There's no shame
in calling it quits when you feel the time is right. Lots of people
stop racing and switch to doing more causal trackdays. Sometimes they
go back and forth depending on money and mood. There's no right or
wrong answer, just remember to have fun. And trust me, your family
will have plenty more to say about track riding. Not many riders have
had the luxury of being raised in a motorcycle-friendly environment.
Do it for yourself.
> Oh yea. And an even more important factor than what I want is just
> how much energy the disease I have will allow me in the years to
> come... Which makes me wonder, are there physical/medical
> requirements for racing?
I've never seen any specific medical requirements for attaining a
racing license or to do a trackday. It's sort of the good old
personal responsibility thing: it's up to you to make sure your body,
mind, and equipment are up to it. I've even heard of a guy racing
with a prosthetic left arm with a repositioned clutch or something
like that. That said, this sport, like many others, will teach you
(and you'll need to learn) to listen to your body. If you have any
respiratory or heart problems, I'd want to talk to my doctor, making
sure they discuss this with you rationally instead of saying it's all
dangerous and you shouldn't do it in the first place. If there any
other medical conditions that you'd want a medial crew to be aware of
in the case you're incapacitated and they're tending to you, notify
whatever organization you're riding with and maybe use a medical
bracelet or the like. One track organizer had people duct tape all
their pertinent medical info in a little pouch to their helmets, which
I thought was an interesting idea.
> You've given me a lot to think about here, and that makes me very
> happy :)
Be safe and have a blast!
Champ
<new...@keslers.removethistosend.net> wrote:
>> >Repeat ad nauseum all day long. It's better in the advanced groups, but
>> >mighty frustrating for a beginner with strict passing rules.
>>
>> You have passing rules on track days?
>>
>Yes, particularly in the less advanced groups. Combine those rules with
>the smaller bikes and you are pulling your hair out if you have any sort
>of corner speed. Beginner groups have no passing in the corners,
>intermediate allow passing only on the outside.
That's just stupid. A friend does car track days with a similar 'only
pass on the outside' rule, and I was trying to explain to him why
passing on the inside is about 1000 times safer.
--
Champ
T3
"Champ" <ne...@champ.org.uk> wrote in message
news:g3ava3p1jmdi16845...@4ax.com...
At first glance you would think so, but when some turkey overcooks a corner
up the inside and takes a group out then you see why...
Btw Kurt it's a 2for this weekend, Phoenix on Sat. morning and Endeavour
Tues. afternoon, though 6a will prolly be a little early/late for me and
with summer weather as it is here the afternoon thing looks iffy at best...
http://www.floridatoday.com/floridatoday/blogs/spaceteam/2007/07/mars-phoenix-launch-delayed-until.html?GID=ExtRaB8CEyuYpYYG1egrpz7bZGE6ls7blePTinh+238%3D
j doll
>
> "Champ" <ne...@champ.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:g3ava3p1jmdi16845...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 08:23:11 -0400, Tweak
>> <new...@keslers.removethistosend.net> wrote:
>>
>
> At first glance you would think so, but when some turkey overcooks a
> corner up the inside and takes a group out then you see why...
>
>
>
>
>
j doll
> In article <c-SdnSyr5cqVczPb...@jvlnet.com>,
> jd...@jvlnet.com says...
>>
>> "T3" <not...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
>> news:46ae2d2a$0$16534$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
>> >
>> > "j doll" <jd...@jvlnet.com> wrote in message
>> > news:WaGdnZCnFqLFiTPb...@jvlnet.com...
>> >>
>> >> "Tweak" <new...@keslers.removethistosend.net> wrote in message
>> >> news:MPG.2117b6eb9...@news.giganews.com...
>> >>> In article <1185671657.0...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>> >>> snow_...@yahoo.com says...
>> >>>> On Jul 23, 6:39 am, Tweak <new...@keslers.removethistosend.net>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>><Snip>
>> >>
>
>
> find one. AFM runs at what, 3 tracks in Cali? Small wonder it's a
> secret.
>
Eastern ignorance speaks.
There are 6 RR tracks in CA
2 of 6 run NO club races
WERA runs a limited schedule at one facility
There are NO CCS races
It's AFM country. They may be a secret to you, but full grids (40 bikes)
are par for the course in the more popular classes. And if you don't get
your entry in early, you don't get a grid spot, you go on the waiting
list...
I remember going to my first race when I moved to the Midwest and wondering
where the hell everyone was.
> You should have spoke up when she originally asked for information
> instead of waiting until your knickers were in a twist.
why? there are more knowledgeable people than I. But when I see
misinformation from someone who's three thousand miles away I think it's
time to speak up.
She'll probably have fun on a SV650, but in her neck of the woods a 250
Ninja might be a better fit to start with.
Having a bike that fits makes the expeirnce much nicer.
Pity that Keith Code stopped using 250's. That would have been a good way to
see what they were like at relatively cheap price.
>
> --
> Tweak