Apex, radius, whats it all about?
Joe Marnell
how to handle turns, especially when the situation comes up when you find
yourself coming into one too hot.
Can we start by the definition of an Apex, radius etc. How to approach a
bend. Head, eye and body position relative to the bike and the road. Counter
steering and the principal of this. Braking techniques (front vs back).
Throttle techniques. Comming out of the turn.
This post is in no way to replace responsible riding and training. Only
practice and honing in on proper riding skills will improve how someone will
perform out on the blacktop. But these groups provide tremendous insight and
recomendations and I am sure many of us would value comments and suggestions
to make us all better, and safer riders.
Keep those lights on...
Joe
Andy Woodward
>Keep those lights on...
Someone else is writing a book based on Usenet derived knowledge...........
Bayron
>
> >OK...heres a great opportunity to help younger, less experience riders learn
> >how to handle turns, especially when the situation comes up when you find
> >yourself coming into one too hot.
>
I've been looking at those thumb-brakes for around 400? (Road Racing
World)
that would be a good tool for those "religious experiences" (in tandem
with the front brake)
At least you would'nt have to see god too often, especially leaning it
over.
kevin bayron
jmar...@my-deja.com
you from running wide.
When cornering, you want to stay on the outside of the lane right
BEFORE you enter the corner, then, at the last minute, turn the bike to
negotiate the turn(that's when you reach the apex). If you follow this
line, 99% of the time you will end up in the middle of the lane when
you exit. This is called "The Late Apex". This technique is
especially important in a decreasing radius turn where most folks run
wide. You need to know how to counter-steer to use this technique.
Most newbies tend to follow the "yellow line" dividing the road because
it provides a reference point. They carve a smooth arc through the
turn. Although this looks elegant, if you use the smooth arc through a
turn and you're carrying too much speed, you will end up on the OUTSIDE
of the lane(the one closest to the cliff edge or rock face) on exit.
In other words, you run wide.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
A. Moore
>
> >OK...heres a great opportunity to help younger, less experience riders learn
> >how to handle turns, especially when the situation comes up when you find
> >yourself coming into one too hot.
>
>
> Someone else is writing a book based on Usenet derived knowledge...........
Your information is out of date. He was, but he had to test it out for
himself. He did OK until he got on that shaftie and tried to drive
without countersteering...
Al Moore
DoD 734
NZMSC
> When cornering, you want to stay on the outside of the lane right
> BEFORE you enter the corner, then, at the last minute, turn the bike to
> negotiate the turn(that's when you reach the apex). If you follow this
> line, 99% of the time you will end up in the middle of the lane when
> you exit. This is called "The Late Apex". This technique is
> especially important in a decreasing radius turn where most folks run
> wide. You need to know how to counter-steer to use this technique.
Great but you forgot one thing - there is no one technique for cornering,
including when to enter, brake, accelerate etc!
Forget the technique - work on the plan. In fact, buying and reading our
"Dimwit's Guide to Cornering" available from our website wouldn't be a bad
idea.
Anyone who tries to use just one set of parameters when cornering is riding
for trouble.
For example, you say "When cornering, you want to stay on the outside of the
lane right BEFORE you enter the corner, then, at the last minute, turn the
bike to
negotiate the turn". <snip> "You need to know how to counter-steer to use
this technique".
Yet, in order to carry out this technique you have to drop the bike over
fairly hard under countersteering and that may suit neither your riding
style nor the roading environment.
In motorcycling, as in most things, there is no absolutes. You not only have
to do what works best for each situation, but what works best for YOU.
--
Allan Kirk
New Zealand Motorcycle Safety Consultants
(Saving motorcyclists' lives since 1971)
Website: http://www.megarider.com
jmar...@my-deja.com
Okay Allan. I'm not a Motorcycle Safety Consultant like yourself. Nor
do I have a book to push. So I put forth what works for me 99.9% of
the time. Although you are right in that my technique may not fit
every rider nor every situation so it is not an absolute. Nothing is.
However, I would have to disagree with you that you have to drop the
bike down real hard at the apex using the "Late Apex" technique.
Okay. You do if you're going pretty fast. But if you ride at The
Pace, which I almost always do, you can still use the late apex
without "dropping the bike hard" into the turn. I wanted to give the
original poster a simple technique without all the terms & complicated
explanations that would require a whole book to explain.
Shredder
Don't worry about poor Allan he has a way of slightly upsetting people with
his delivery of newsgroup posts. I'm not saying he is wrong or anything bad
about him after all ghe is working for the good of motorcycling, its just he
needs a slight readjustment of how to deliver posts without affending
people.
Steve
impression that late apexing was to run a bit wide so that you can start
your drive out of the turn a bit sooner. Apex being the closest point you
go to inside the turn, catching a late apex also gives you a good view of
the exit sooner (facilitating the early drive out). Early apex will make
the entry a tight radius, forcing you to slow down through the exit when you
should already be on the gas. But hell, why are we discussing racing
techniques for street riding? If you want to practice late apexing, go to a
track. Attend a roadracing school.
btw, all turns should be countersteered. -early apex, late apex, turn at an
intersection - they're all countersteered.
<jmar...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8lion4$ju1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Dan Carter
> Can we start by the definition of an Apex, radius etc. How to approach a
> bend. Head, eye and body position relative to the bike and the road. Counter
> steering and the principal of this. Braking techniques (front vs back).
> Throttle techniques. Coming out of the turn.
Start by reading Keith Code's "Twist of the Wrist II"
(http://www.whitehorsepress.com/onlinecatalog/sections/proddata/twis2.htm)
and Gary Jaehne's "Sportbiking: The Real World"
(http://www.whitehorsepress.com/onlinecatalog/sections/proddata/sbrw.htm).
Code focuses on track riding, but his steering principles and visual
techniques work anywhere. Jaehne's book is strictly oriented to
street riding and offers valuable tips on visual technique, braking,
and throttle control.
Though it's more of a "safety" book, David Hough's "Proficient
Motorcycling"
(http://www.whitehorsepress.com/onlinecatalog/sections/proddata/pm.htm)
offers lots of good info about lines, steering, braking, and throttle
application on a twisty road.
"Motorcycle Roadcraft: The Police Rider's Handbook" (published in the
UK and not generally available in the US--email me for ordering info)
presents the only published account I've seen of the concept of "limit
point"--the furthest point down the road to which you have a clear
view--and how to use it to maximize speed while staying within the
limit of the road.
As for some definitions:
apex - closest approach of the rider's path to the inside of a turn;
"late" means nearer the end of the turn
radius - the curvature of the turn; "decreasing" means the turn gets
tighter toward the end
countersteering - the steering input required to initiate a turn;
pushing on the left bar produces lean and turn to the left (the
principles behind it are a long-running topic of debate)
--
Dan Carter, San Luis Obispo, CA, Dat...@att.net
1983 CX650 Turbo | 1988 Hawk GT | 1990 VFR750R (RC30) | 1997 VFR750F
rogue...@my-deja.com
"Steve" <n...@home.com> wrote:
But hell, why are we discussing racing
> techniques for street riding? If you want to practice late apexing,
go to a
> track. Attend a roadracing school.
>
Disagree. Late apexing can be used very effectively in the street.
You are mistaking that late apexing requires high speed. Not so. You
said so yourself that late apexing can be very useful in allowing the
rider to see oncoming traffic or road obstacles sooner than he would if
he were to simply follow a smooth arc through the turn. This alone
makes late apexing a valuable technique even on the streets.
roadi...@my-deja.com
Dan Carter <dat...@att.net> wrote:
> Joe Marnell wrote:
>
> > Can we start by the definition of an Apex, radius etc. How to
approach a
> > bend. Head, eye and body position relative to the bike and the road.
Counter
> > steering and the principal of this. Braking techniques (front vs
back).
> > Throttle techniques. Coming out of the turn.
>
> Start by reading Keith Code's "Twist of the Wrist II"
<stuff deleted>
> As for some definitions:
>
> apex - closest approach of the rider's path to the inside of a turn;
> "late" means nearer the end of the turn
>
> radius - the curvature of the turn; "decreasing" means the turn gets
> tighter toward the end
>
> countersteering - the steering input required to initiate a turn;
> pushing on the left bar produces lean and turn to the left (the
> principles behind it are a long-running topic of debate)
>
> --
> Dan Carter, San Luis Obispo, CA, Dat...@att.net
> 1983 CX650 Turbo | 1988 Hawk GT | 1990 VFR750R (RC30) | 1997 VFR750F
>
Good reading suggestions. Clear definitions are always helpful to a
discusion.
Here is a description of going around a corner. Become familar with a
road. Ride it again and again, until you know the shape of a curve
before you get to it. Always leave safety margin. Don't use all the
speed or space that you have. Get the technique right, then add speed.
There is nothing here you can't practise at a modest speed.
If you want to maintain high corner speed, you need to choose the widest
circular arc that will fit though the corner. Take a nice easy constant
radius, level, neutral camber curve. Draw a picture of the usable
portion of a curved bit of roadway and the straight preceding and after
it. The largest circular arc you can fit in the roadway will touch the
edge of the roadway in three places. This is the path the motorcycle
will follow. Where the arc touches the edge of the roadway at the
entrance we will call the corner entry point. As mentioned, where the
arc touches the inside edge of the curve, near the center, we will call
the apex. Where the arc touches the outside edge, at the end of the
curve we will call the corner exit. Brake coming down the entrance
straight. Smoothly get off the brakes so that you are at the desired
speed at the corner entry point. Downshift the motorcycle to the rpm in
the power band where you want to be accelerating from the exit. Don't
overdo the rpms. Coming up to the corner entry you are off the throttle
or just on it to avoid too much compression braking. Look into the
curve in the direction you want to go. Countersteer at the corner entry
point and lean to the desired angle. Bring the throttle up just enough
to avoid losing speed. Throttle use will loosen or tighten the path of
the motorcycle in a very sensitive manner. A nice constant speed
produces the nice constant arc we are after. Run over the apex
position. Keep turning in a circular arc and looking where you want to
go. Run over the corner exit position. Steer the motorcycle up
straight and accelerate down the exit straight.
You don't need to do this all at once. Pick one thing and
work on it. Practise braking to the correct speed.
Practise locating the corner entry point. Practise leaning
over in one smooth controlled motion. Practise not wobbling
the speed up and down through the corner. You only need to
change what you are doing now by 5 or 10% at a time. Stay
within your comfort zone. Most importantly:
Have fun!
Roadie Roger
jeronimo...@my-deja.com
roadi...@my-deja.com wrote:
> (...) Where the arc touches the outside edge, at the end of the
> curve we will call the corner exit. Brake coming down the entrance
> straight. Smoothly get off the brakes so that you are at the desired
> speed at the corner entry point. Downshift the motorcycle to the rpm
in
> the power band where you want to be accelerating from the exit.
Get in cornering position before you start to brake. Downshift *while*
you're braking. Flip the throttle while you hold the clutch to keep the
revs up and let the clutch come up after you shifted. Repeat until
you're in the right gear. Feel the front brake handle, let loose as
speed decreases.
> Don't
> overdo the rpms. Coming up to the corner entry you are off the
throttle
> or just on it to avoid too much compression braking. Look into the
> curve in the direction you want to go. Countersteer at the corner
entry
> point and lean to the desired angle.
Countersteer is a subconscious thing, imho, as is leaning the bike
over. It should all come naturally.
Bring the throttle up just enough
> to avoid losing speed. Throttle use will loosen or tighten the path
of
> the motorcycle in a very sensitive manner. A nice constant speed
> produces the nice constant arc we are after. Run over the apex
> position. Keep turning in a circular arc and looking where you want
to
> go. Run over the corner exit position. Steer the motorcycle up
> straight and accelerate down the exit straight.
See above. You don't "steer the motorcycle up". The bike just gets up
when you smoothly open the gas.
> You don't need to do this all at once. Pick one thing and
> work on it. Practise braking to the correct speed.
> Practise locating the corner entry point. Practise leaning
> over in one smooth controlled motion. Practise not wobbling
> the speed up and down through the corner. You only need to
> change what you are doing now by 5 or 10% at a time. Stay
> within your comfort zone. Most importantly:
>
> Have fun!
I second that. The most important thing is to stay safe! Don't think
you are Kenny Roberts, because you are not. The street ain't no
circuit. Nobody will applaud you for being an idiot and riding
hazardously. Ride smoothly and don't think about it too much. Just ride
and ride and ride, and if it don't come naturally take a track course
or forget about the whole thing and buy yourself a neat little car.
"IMHO" implicitly present in the text.
Cheers,
Jeronimo :)
P.S. I learned it the hard way (by crashing too many times), yet riding
fast on a twisting road still is the best thing on earth to me.
Demetrios
>Get in cornering position before you start to brake.
You mean your body or the bike? It's better to brake before beginning
the countersteer.
> Downshift *while* you're braking.
If you enjoy trying to match revs whilst modulating the front brake.
Some prefer to do the shifting separately.
> Flip the throttle while you hold the clutch to keep the
>revs up and let the clutch come up after you shifted. Repeat until
>you're in the right gear.
Or you could just bang down as many gears as you need and blip the
throttle enough to get it in the proper rev range for the gear and
speed you're at. Using the engine as a brake is a bad idea in terms of
control and engine wear.
> Feel the front brake handle,
Actually I prefer to pull on it if I'm trying to brake.
> let loose as speed decreases.
I thought that happened as the speed increased... ;)
>Countersteer is a subconscious thing, imho, as is leaning the bike
>over. It should all come naturally.
But you can decide how much to use and when. Relying on your
subconscious too much can trigger target fixation.
>See above. You don't "steer the motorcycle up". The bike just gets up
>when you smoothly open the gas.
Not necessarily. Some bikes handle neutrally and need an input to
command them upright. Relying on the gas to stand up doesn't offer as
much control as manually countersteering them up again. Opening the
gas to stand it up will lowside my R6 before anything else.
Morten Becker-Eriksen
news:8lj0i9$p7p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
but should only be used were you have some visibility out of the turn.
Planing anything but a smoth turn following the curve can be dangerous with
limited view.
/MBE
Andy Woodward
>of the
>> lane right BEFORE you enter the corner, then, at the last minute,
>turn the
>> bike to
>> negotiate the turn". <snip> "You need to know how to counter-steer to
>use
>> this technique".
>>
>> Yet, in order to carry out this technique you have to drop the bike
>over
>> fairly hard under countersteering and that may suit neither your
>riding
>> style nor the roading environment.
>Okay Allan. I'm not a Motorcycle Safety Consultant like yourself. Nor
>do I have a book to push.
OK. I'll step in then......
>However, I would have to disagree with you that you have to drop the
>bike down real hard at the apex using the "Late Apex" technique.
To late apex, you have to make the bike turn more sharply than using a more
symmtrical cornering line. So you are either going to have to be slower at teh
turn-in or do it more forcefully - which will put more force on hte front
wheel and make it more liekly to slide if teh surface is not perfect.
Now the ONLY immutable rule in this game is that you must ALWAYS be able to
stop in hte distance you can see to be clear at ALL POINTS in the corner (and
everywhere else on the street too).
The late apex is good to maximise your sightline round hte corner and you
should ALWAYS stay wide until you can see the corner exit to be clear. BUT my
preference is to turn in as early as my sightline allows. If I have a clear
view far enough ahead to stop in teh distance I can see, then I dont see a lot
of point in getting much more vision, preferring to smooth out hte cornering
loads on hte bike.
So your line is chosen to increase the distance you can see round hte
corner (this is Priority One), but once you have enough distance to be able to
stop in, then other priorities can be allowed to take over.
In practice, this means approaching and entering the corner wide and only
turning in narrow once you can see hte exit is clear of fridges. Your speed at
all points in this process is goverend by hte Vanishing Point. These
techniques make corners ride htemselves. You travel them as fast as is
consistent with safety and never get surprised by the unexpected. Cornering
gets really boring this way even tho youre travelling faster than you did
before you learned these techniques......
Andy Woodward
>his delivery of newsgroup posts. I'm not saying he is wrong or anything bad
>about him after all ghe is working for the good of motorcycling, its just he
>needs a slight readjustment of how to deliver posts without affending
>people.
He should study the diplomacy of oldtimers like me.
Andy Woodward
>intersection - they're all countersteered.
No. You countersteer when it ishte bestsolution to he problem. You dont when
it isnt.
There are several ways to steer a bike. Counterseering only has one
advantage over the others - that its by far the fastest - this can be a
disadvantage on bad surfaces.
Or to put it in a racing context whioch would be more familiar to you - when
you want to make adjustments to your line right on the traction limit. If the
front tyre is already howling, you really dont want to add any input htru hte
bars.......
Andy Woodward
>circular arc that will fit though the corner. Take a nice easy constant
>radius, level, neutral camber curve. Draw a picture of the usable
>portion of a curved bit of roadway and the straight preceding and after
>it. The largest circular arc you can fit in the roadway will touch the
>edge of the roadway in three places. This is the path the motorcycle
>will follow. Where the arc touches the edge of the roadway at the
>entrance we will call the corner entry point. As mentioned, where the
>arc touches the inside edge of the curve, near the center, we will call
>curve we will call the corner exit. Brake coming down the entrance
>straight. Smoothly get off the brakes so that you are at the desired
>speed at the corner entry point. Downshift the motorcycle to the rpm in
>overdo the rpms. Coming up to the corner entry you are off the throttle
>or just on it to avoid too much compression braking. Look into the
>curve in the direction you want to go. Countersteer at the corner entry
>to avoid losing speed. Throttle use will loosen or tighten the path of
>the motorcycle in a very sensitive manner. A nice constant speed
>produces the nice constant arc we are after. Run over the apex
>position. Keep turning in a circular arc and looking where you want to
>go. Run over the corner exit position. Steer the motorcycle up
>straight and accelerate down the exit straight.
Erm. There's no humane way to put this - its just complete bollocks >X-{
Some Guy on a Bike
>> Downshift *while* you're braking.
> If you enjoy trying to match revs whilst modulating the front brake.
I think it's an important skill to have in terms of smoothness,
safety, and the ability to react with anything your bike has to
offer in the case of an emergency.
>> Flip the throttle while you hold the clutch to keep the
>> revs up and let the clutch come up after you shifted. Repeat until
>> you're in the right gear.
> Or you could just bang down as many gears as you need and blip the
> throttle enough to get it in the proper rev range for the gear and
> speed you're at.
Er, unless you are holding the clutch in for a LONG time (which I
think is a bad idea at any time no a bike), you're going to end up
with the engine clear in the redline if you go two or more gears,
usually, and this can cause catastrophic loss of control if not done
PERFECTLY. I *highly* recommend AGAINST this practice. It also
make emergency acceleration damned difficult.
> Using the engine as a brake is a bad idea in terms of
> control and engine wear.
*cough* bullshit *cough*
Engine braking is an important and useful technique for street and
track use, albeit more for the street. I use it at least once every
thirty seconds in the hills or on surface streets, about all the
time. It's very useful, doesn't hurt the engine in any way, and
gives you more control more quickly, especially in marginal traction
conditions.
>> See above. You don't "steer the motorcycle up". The bike just gets up
>> when you smoothly open the gas.
> Not necessarily. Some bikes handle neutrally and need an input to
> command them upright. Relying on the gas to stand up doesn't offer as
> much control as manually countersteering them up again.
Possibly. If you know what the bike is going to do, you can use it.
Going back to our trail braking the front convo of last week, I
often come into a corner a little hot, brake fairly hard, and then
once I set my entry speed, let off the brake a bit. This makes the
bike tend to lean further into the corner, and I use that to my
advantage on the turns. Much of being a good rider/driver is
learning to use the quirks of yuor vehicle to your advantage...
> Opening the
> gas to stand it up will lowside my R6 before anything else.
Throttle control, my good man!
--
=====================================================================
Adam Wade "The only way I'll stop riding
CWRA #4 SDWL #2 is if I stop breathing."
CIMC #1 DoD #2009 LOMP #2 1990 Zephyr 550 (Daphne)
The opinions expressed here are my own, and do not represent
those of my employer in any form.
=====================================================================
Andy Woodward
>> gas to stand it up will lowside my R6 before anything else.
>Throttle control, my good man!
He has an R6. You've got a hope. If he had control, he'd have bought a more
useful bike.
Dan Nitschke
> He should study the diplomacy of oldtimers like me.
So, Allan -- you want a PhD in null set theory?
--
/* dan: The Anti-Ged -- NZMSC Accredited Good Riding Advice Giver */
Dan Nitschke - peDA...@idiom.com - (.)@(.....).net
-----------------------------------------------------
And nothin' ain't worth nothin', but it's free.
-- Kris Kristofferson, "Me and Bobby McGee"
ayrb...@my-deja.com
> btw, all turns should be countersteered. -early apex, late apex,
turn at
an
> intersection - they're all countersteered.
Ummmm.....Not if you talk to Reggie Pridmore.....
He says, (and i agree) that the only time the suspension can
work
properly thru corners(and bumps) is when the bike is in balance, ie, You
could take your hands off the grips and the bike would continue thru the
corner the same way. You'll find that if you counter steer as a
practice,
that your front tire will not mimic your back tire in wear. Your front
tire
will have a whole bunch of unscruffed space and your back tire will have
alot of scruffed space. The bike wants to take you through the corner as
confidantly as going straight, but if you wrestle the grips too much,
you're
fighting against the bike. There are a few times that counter steering
is
great, Like when scraping your pucs is a higher priority than proper
turn
negotiation, or in real quick left to right turn conversion, but many,
not
all, experienced racers use a huge helping of "body steering". Use your
knees to grip the tank, use your feet to push the pegs, use your upper
body
to balance the bike, and above all, strive for smoothness, and
absolutly do not ride outside your limits.
Andy Burnett
> He says, (and i agree) that the only time the suspension can
>work
>properly thru corners(and bumps) is when the bike is in balance, ie, You
>could take your hands off the grips and the bike would continue thru the
>corner the same way.
What does this have to do with countersteering? Countersteering is a
technique to lean the bike over. It takes less than a second at the corner
entrance, then, once the bike is leaned you relax your grip exactly as you
describe above. Countersteering does *not* involve keeping pressure on the
bars once the bike is leaned over. A bike with decent tires, properly
adjusted suspension and a rider who is using good throttle control will
stay leaned where you put it.
>You'll find that if you counter steer as a
>practice,
>that your front tire will not mimic your back tire in wear. Your front
>tire
>will have a whole bunch of unscruffed space and your back tire will have
>alot of scruffed space.
Baloney. Uneven tire wear comes from uneven weight distribution. An
excessively worn front tire (on the edges) usually means the rider is
habitually late on the gas or trail brakes a lot. An excessively worn rear
(also on the edges) indicates the rider comes out hard on the throttle,
often trying to make up for a lower entry speed.
>The bike wants to take you through the corner as
>confidantly as going straight, but if you wrestle the grips too much,
>you're
>fighting against the bike.
Correct. Again, this has nothing to do with proper countersteering.
>There are a few times that counter steering
>is
>great, ...
Like when you're turning the bike.
>Like when scraping your pucs is a higher priority than proper
>turn
>negotiation, or in real quick left to right turn conversion, but many,
>not
>all, experienced racers use a huge helping of "body steering". Use your
>knees to grip the tank, use your feet to push the pegs, use your upper
>body
>to balance the bike, and above all, strive for smoothness, and
>absolutly do not ride outside your limits.
I don't see many top racers doing this.
You can turn the bike effectively in any situation using countersteering.
It always works. It's efficient enough to snap the bike over hard without
much effort, or you can do it "smoothly" if that's your thing. Why would
you want to do all of this other mumbo jumbo with your knees and feet?
If you're interested in finding out how effective steering with your lower
body is, put a throttle lock on your bike, approach your favorite 100 mph
turn and steer it with no hands. I think you'll be disappointed.
ab
rogue...@my-deja.com
tzr...@NOSPAMyahoo.com (Andy Burnett) wrote:
> ayrb...@my-deja.com wrote in <8lke63$q8j$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>:
>
>
> >.....but many,not all, experienced racers use a huge helping
of "body steering". Use your knees to grip the tank, use your feet to
strive for smoothness, and absolutly do not ride outside your limits.
>
> I don't see many top racers doing this.
I guess that's maybe why most top racers don't crash huh? 'Cause they
don't ride beyond their limits?
>
> You can turn the bike effectively in any situation using
countersteering.
> It always works. It's efficient enough to snap the bike over hard
without
> much effort, or you can do it "smoothly" if that's your thing. Why
would
> you want to do all of this other mumbo jumbo with your knees and feet?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because it works for a lot of people. Because a lot of top racers use
their knees & feet so it obviously must help somehow. Because many of
the top high performance riding schools teach them. But what does
Pridmore, Code, & Spencer know anyway....
>
> If you're interested in finding out how effective steering with your
lower
> body is, put a throttle lock on your bike, approach your favorite 100
mph
> turn and steer it with no hands. I think you'll be disappointed.
>
> ab
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think he meant steering with the bars IN COMBINATION with using the
knees to grip the tank, weighing the inside footpeg, etc. If your
riding style is simply counter-steering, and you're able to go fast and
enjoy yourself on it, that's great. But there are many who like to use
their whole body, and what's wrong with that? Kenny Roberts Sr. was
one of the pioneers of hanging off bikes and using "body english" to
increase cornering speeds and generally make his bike go faster in the
turns than everyone else. It obviously worked for him and just about
every successful racer out there. So why are you so against using the
rest of your body to improve your cornering skills?
Demetrios
Guy on a Bike) wrote:
>I think it's an important skill to have in terms of smoothness,
>safety, and the ability to react with anything your bike has to
>offer in the case of an emergency.
So's being able to pull a panic stop. Doesn't mean one should
panic-brake into every corner when riding normally...
>Er, unless you are holding the clutch in for a LONG time (which I
>think is a bad idea at any time no a bike), you're going to end up
>with the engine clear in the redline if you go two or more gears,
>usually, and this can cause catastrophic loss of control if not done
>PERFECTLY. I *highly* recommend AGAINST this practice. It also
>make emergency acceleration damned difficult.
Unless you have a close-ratio tranny combined with a large rev range.
At 8k rpm I still have 7500 to go... How does emergency acceleration
get affected in a negative manner when I'm smack dab in the middle of
the powerband? ;)
Typically I need to bang two downshifts if there's a signficant change
in speed and I want to be on the pipe coming out of the turn. Why not
bang them out with one clutching as opposed to adding time and
distance to my shifting when I should be finishing up my braking and
setting up for the turn?
>*cough* bullshit *cough*
IYHO. There are many who feel differently.
>Engine braking is an important and useful technique for street and
>track use, albeit more for the street. I use it at least once every
>thirty seconds in the hills or on surface streets, about all the
>time. It's very useful, doesn't hurt the engine in any way, and
>gives you more control more quickly, especially in marginal traction
>conditions.
Ummmm engine braking is BAD in marginal traction situations. The
brakes offer far more control over the modulation of braking than some
engine spinning down the rear wheel. Furthermore since we all know
most braking takes place up front I have no idea why one would rely on
the rear to slow them down much.
And while it isn't bad for the engine per se it does add an
infintesimal amount of wear given that the engine is being loaded up
when that same load could have been handled by a set of $30 brake
pads. YMMV.
>Possibly. If you know what the bike is going to do, you can use it.
>Going back to our trail braking the front convo of last week, I
>often come into a corner a little hot, brake fairly hard, and then
>once I set my entry speed, let off the brake a bit. This makes the
>bike tend to lean further into the corner, and I use that to my
>advantage on the turns. Much of being a good rider/driver is
>learning to use the quirks of yuor vehicle to your advantage...
This is a common quirk as most bikes tend to stand upon braking.
You're trying to use the brakes as a lean tool and some would take
issue with that. Different strokes for different folks though,
whatever you've grown accustomed to is better than trying something
you haven't gotten used to.
OTOH experimentation doesn't hurt. It always helps to expand the
envelope.
>Throttle control, my good man!
I meant that opening the throttle on a bike that *doesn't* want to
stand up on a turn when gassed will produce a lowside before anything
else. The R6 actually "falls" into corners if you don't gas it hard
and you have to hold it up with either the throttle or a bar input.
Adding more gas doesn't bring it up, countersteering does. Very
disconcerting if you haven't experienced this before.
Demetrios
wrote:
>>> Opening the
>>> gas to stand it up will lowside my R6 before anything else.
>
>>Throttle control, my good man!
>
>He has an R6. You've got a hope. If he had control, he'd have bought a more
>useful bike.
Right. We'd all be on the Spagthorpe 250 tiddler which was proven to
have the lowest running costs of any motorcycle sold in the world.
Running costs being the paramount consideration for any true
motorcyclist.
Rob Kleinschmidt
> Here is a description of going around a corner. Become familar with a
> road. Ride it again and again, until you know the shape of a curve
> before you get to it.
And after a couple of years of this, you might even
consider riding roads that you've never seen before.
Andy Burnett
<9645665...@shelley.paradise.net.nz>:
>
>Andy Burnett wrote
>> Countersteering does *not* involve keeping pressure on the
>> bars once the bike is leaned over.
>
>Sorry, old chum, but it does. One of the on-road exercises for one of
>our higher level courses illustrates that only too clearly.
There are some bikes for which this isn't true, but in general, you can
completely relax your grip on the bars and the bike will hold its line. If it
doesn't, it's usually something you're doing. Poor throttle control (either
neutral throttle or rolling off) will cause the bike to run wide. It will also
run wide if you're not leaning with it.
I'd be curious to hear more about this on road exercise. I'm familiar with an
on-track exercise which clearly shows that what I'm saying is true. In a long,
constant radius turn, with your body relaxed and leaning with the bike (or even
better, hanging off), relax your arms as you gently roll on the throttle.
Before the turn ends, gently roll off without doing anything else and feel the
bike run wide.
ab
Andy Burnett
>But what does
>Pridmore, Code, & Spencer know anyway....
Pridmore teaches it; I don't know what Spencer teaches; I can assure you
beyond any doubt that Code does not teach it or advocate doing it.
>I think he meant steering with the bars IN COMBINATION with using the
>knees to grip the tank, weighing the inside footpeg, etc.
He probably did. My point is that the effects of using your lower body are
so minimal on a moving bike that they're not worth the effort. I think
it's funny to watch somone demonstrating the technique on a stationary
bike. The thing barely todders back and forth while standing still, and
yet that's the energy that's supposed to help turn the bike while it's
moving at speed with a couple of gyroscopes spinning.
I have tried the technique and found that leaning the bike is easy and the
sensation is pleasant. So why would I get all worked up about it?
>If your
>riding style is simply counter-steering, and you're able to go fast and
>enjoy yourself on it, that's great. But there are many who like to use
>their whole body, and what's wrong with that? Kenny Roberts Sr. was
>one of the pioneers of hanging off bikes and using "body english" to
>increase cornering speeds and generally make his bike go faster in the
>turns than everyone else. It obviously worked for him and just about
>every successful racer out there. So why are you so against using the
>rest of your body to improve your cornering skills?
Most of the most successful racers aren't body steering. Rainey didn't,
Lawson didn't, Koscinski didn't, Chandler didn't, Mladin and Nicky Hayden
aren't doing it and so on. Who are you thinking of?
Hanging off and body steering are not the same thing. I'm not against
hanging off, but I do have concerns about body steering. I'll explain why
and then you can draw your own conclusions.
First, my understanding of body steering is that you apply downward
pressure to the inside footpeg and pull on the tank with your outside knee
to help lean the bike over. In order to do this, you must either lead the
bike with your body and pull it down after you or stuff it underneath you.
I doubt that many advocate stuffing the bike underneath you, but my point
is that the bike will move independently of the rider using this technique.
That's part of what makes it feel so effective.
Since you're leading the turn with your body, by the time you steer the
bike, that's all the mass you need to move. The bike alone has less mass
to move than the bike + you. You are using your mass to help pull it down.
You've separated the turning action into two parts, dissipating the effort
over time, which makes it feel like there's less effort involved.
The concerns I have with the technique are:
The extra body movement can upset the chassis. The rider's weight is
shifting around and he's not stable on the bike as it reaches maximum lean.
The actual benefit is pretty minimal. The gas tank and footpegs are not
efficient controls to turn the bike. It requires more muscular energy to
make something happen this way. If you have weak arms, it may feel easier,
since you're using larger muscle groups, but those larger muscles are
working surfaces that don't accomplish as much. Over the course of a race
(if you care) the cummulative effort is greater. Its not a good trade to
me.
Many, many riders countersteer inefficiently, pushing somewhat down on the
bars. The bars don't turn down; they turn forward and even slightly up.
If you countersteer a bike this way, you start to see how efficient it is
and wonder why you'd do anything in addition. There are plenty of things
to think about when entering a turn fast, and I'm looking for ways to get
rid of a few. Because this technique doesn't really do much to turn the
bike, and does involve more muscles and attention right at the turn point,
I'll do without it.
Weighting the inside footpeg decreases the leverage you have on the inside
handlebar. Pressing on the *outside* footpeg at the instant you
countersteer provides noticably more power for countersteering. You can't
do both.
If the bike slides while you've got weight on the inside peg, the bike will
fall more quickly than if you have pressure on the outside. To be clear, I
*don't* mean that you're leaning to the outside; I mean you're hanging off
the inside, holding yourself in place primarily with your outside knee
against the tank and bearing down on the outside footpeg.
Finally, body steering requires setup prior to the turn. The rider must be
able to anticipate the upcoming turn and have his body off the bike to be
able to pull it over. Not a big deal for most cornering scenarios, as most
of us can tell ahead of time if it's a right or left turn. In an evasive
turn, you may have no idea where you're going to turn until you have to.
Countersteering will let you turn the bike quickly with no setup time at
all. If you've come to believe that you must body steer at all times (some
do; this can seem like a religious conversation sometimes), the extra
delay, short though it may be, can be dangerous.
So, my reasons to favor pure countersteering are:
- It always works,
- It's efficient of effort and attention,
- It doesn't upset the chassis,
- It doesn't require setup time.
The strength of my first reply on this subject had less to do with whether
to body steer as it did with the assertion that countersteering wasn't
always appropriate. Those sound like the words of someone who has some
misunderstandings about countersteering.
More than whether people body steer or not, I'm concerned that people know
how to countersteer efficiently. It's reliable, quick and the best way to
steer out of a surprise. If you know how to countersteer and still have a
use for body steering, knock yourself out.
ab
Satya Purohit
the curve, he's quite right - your own apex stuff & his description , once
drawn out on paper will look strikingly similar. I've seen his description
more accurately used in car racing i.e. f1 etc.
Bayron
>
> You can turn the bike effectively in any situation using countersteering.
I've noticed how well countersteering works in 1st gear at steady
throttle (just recently).
I can make MUCH more rapid turns with *pressure* on the bars alone than
with just casual leaning. Of course, you don't keep constant pressure,
just enough to turn and relax into the corner, hold the throttle steady
and cruise on through. It also helps to put pressure on the pegs
diagonally to bar pressure as in keith code's book to help steady the
bike, especially in fast corners.
I have to admit though...i usually have my ass planted firmly on the
seat...I'm not comfortable with hanging off, but you can weight the pegs
and lift some of that butt weight.
I had to mix up some premix in my tank and let me tell you...once I
found this out...I was bouncing that puppy almost like a basket ball
swerving from side to side.
Countersteering will get you around most obstabcles better than anything
else, no argument here.
kevin bayron
NZMSC
> So, Allan -- you want a PhD in null set theory?
Indeed! .... but what *is* null set theory!?
Oh, if I upset people with my postings, I'm sorry but, having taught people
to ride for a few years, and knowing how people can pick up on what other
riders say and take on board some of the most *terrible* advice, I tend to
be sensitive about what advice is given out publicly...
NZMSC
Andy Burnett wrote
> Countersteering does *not* involve keeping pressure on the
> bars once the bike is leaned over.
Sorry, old chum, but it does. One of the on-road exercises for one of our
higher level courses illustrates that only too clearly.
Of course, to a degree it depends upon the type of corner you are
negotiating, if the corner opens out at the end, then you don't need to
countersteer for too long. On the other hand, if the corner tightens up, you
need to countersteer quite hard for quite a long time.
Shredder
can slide your inside hand (left hand for left corner etc) up and down on
the bar very easily. This would mean that you in fact do not apply too much
pressure at all on the bars at all? Well this is what was told and then
demonstrated to me.....
just another 2 cents worth to add to the debate. btw: i don't recomend
anyone taking their bottom hand off whilst in a corner (especially on a
road)
Andrew
NZMSC <nzm...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:9645665...@shelley.paradise.net.nz...
Shredder
goes anyway...... by having a steady radius through the apex your bike will
have the least possible point of friction for the maximum space of time. By
turning in late your time of least friction is much less, plus your bike
will be straightened up much earlier allowing to get on the gas sooner. This
is one area where Mick Doohan kicked ass in his riding style. You would
always see him straighten the bike and get on the gas much much earlier than
the other riders.
Anyway here is an article you all may find interesting. (note it goes onto
page 2 etc, link at the bottom right)
http://www.bikenet-racing.com/Features/article.asp?id=522&Section=Features&p
age=1
Andrew
Roque Torres
>
> - It always works,
> - It's efficient of effort and attention,
> - It doesn't upset the chassis,
> - It doesn't require setup time.
It's also requires more effort in your arms, thus ending up in arm pump for
many riders. I've had many students explain that they're getting tired and
pumped up. They're holding on too tightly, and sometimes they're just using
their arms to haul over a high hp motorcycle. Stopping a GSXR1100, then
trying to turn that behemoth takes a lot more physical effort than a 125GP
bike, so using just your arms is not that easy. Bending a GSXR1100 into a
corner while it still slows down is even more difficult. All that weight and
gyroscopic effect take some serious physical effort. Using just your arms is
very, very difficult for most people.
I use my body to help turn the bike as well as my arms. The movement I use
is smooth, precise and in concert with leaning off the motorcycle. All
movements must blend together in order to maintain a smooth action.
The fact that I can use different muscle groups to help turn the motorcycle
actually *saves* energy. Using just my arms requires that I use smaller
muscles to do the same amount of work which causes those muscles to reach
their limit sooner. Spreading the load out throughout my body decreases the
overall physical effort of each muscle group, spreads out the turning motion
on the motorcycle and makes everything smoother. I can last longer on the
motorcycle and the motorcycle likes the action more than yanking on just the
bars.
In reality, a small amount of countersteering initializes the turn, in
company with using your outside knee in the tank, feet on pegs and some body
english. Used properly, all of these movements can be used upon the same
turn in point so there is no difference in "setup time". I set my body
position as I'm approaching my braking zone, still hard on the gas and
tucked in. Once I've set my body position, I place hands on controls then
once at my brake marker I pop up and brake. My body is already leaned off of
the motorcycle slightly as I brake for the corner. Once I reach my desired
turn-in point my body position is already set.. If I choose to just
countersteer, then I can do that. If I choose to use the additional contact
points (knee, feet, body english), then I can do that as well. All of them
can be used with no added muss or fuss.
The only problem I can see is that most people don't excercise their lower
body much and it takes some effort to move around on a motorcycle. Flopping
around is the result of being tired and that's not good technique and that's
why most accomplished motorcycle racers are rather athletic and/or strong.
>
> The strength of my first reply on this subject had less to do with whether
> to body steer as it did with the assertion that countersteering wasn't
> always appropriate. Those sound like the words of someone who has some
> misunderstandings about countersteering.
>
> More than whether people body steer or not, I'm concerned that people know
> how to countersteer efficiently. It's reliable, quick and the best way to
> steer out of a surprise. If you know how to countersteer and still have a
> use for body steering, knock yourself out.
If you're just sitting, relaxed on your seat, then you're mereley a
passenger. Racers rarely sit on the seat as though they are on a long
highway ride. Street riding along a freeway allows relaxation. Track riding
is more akin to being a horse Jockey. If you're just crusing in the pits,
then you can sit in the saddle, but once on the track, a racer is rarely
*sitting* still in a relaxed position. More often the racer is up on the
pegs, braced against the tank, or trying to keep the front wheel down. Those
using lazy or poor technique may suffer from "setup time" movements as they
flop their body around. Isometric movements are required when riding, or
racing a motorcycle so that the motorcycle does not know you are on it's
back. Very physically demanding for a racer to remain as invisible
(movement-wise) as possible.
What that means is, if you're sitting on the seat in a relaxed fashion, just
using counter-steering may be your only option. The problem is, you need to
not just change the momentum of the motorcycle, your body, being the highest
center or gravity point (and detached) is the weak link to your reaction
time. By pressuring the pegs, you've effectively placed *your* center of
gravity much lower, making it easier to change direction.
Roq
Andy Woodward
>>
>> - It always works,
Mostly well. Soemtimes badly. Dependds on the situation adn what tyou are
trying to acheive. Countersteeringcan put your irons in the fire aswell as pul
hem out.
>> - It doesn't upset the chassis,
Actualy it upsets the chasis more than hte alternatives becaouse it involves
physically forcingteh front whel to dosomething instead of lettting the bike
steer its own front wehel itself.
Contersteering is the sledgehammer body, weighting is hte rapier. Soemtimes
sledgehammersare just too coarse a tool. Although most of teh time the
sledgemhammer is more use.
>> The strength of my first reply on this subject had less to do with whether
>> to body steer as it did with the assertion that countersteering wasn't
>> always appropriate. Those sound like the words of someone who has some
>> misunderstandings about countersteering.
>>
>> More than whether people body steer or not, I'm concerned that people know
>> how to countersteer efficiently. It's reliable, quick and the best way to
>> steer out of a surprise. If you know how to countersteer and still have a
>> use for body steering, knock yourself out.
If you know hwo to counter steer and DONT still hae a use forr weighting, hten
you have reachedthat advanced statwe of newbiedom wwher a little knowledge can
a dangerous thing........You have learned something but think that's
everything. Not time to leave the monastery yet Glasshoppa.
>If you're just sitting, relaxed on your seat, then you're mereley a
>passenger.
Or an expert road rider.......
> Racers rarely sit on the seat as though they are on a long
>highway ride.
I had a hilarious incident on Thruday eevening. I saw a motorcycle headlight
coming up very fast along a straight bit befoe some sharp (English -->
American translation = 'impossible') downhill twisties. So I thought - I dont
want some mad bugger up my exahsut gong into these, so I slowed right down
pulled over and 'gave' hime the 'oportunity' to pass. Nice yellow Ducati - one
of teh big 'uns.
Then I though I'd have some fun. So I speeded up and sat about 3-4 seconsd
behind him. He was climbing all over the bike with his knee down on all the
bends trying unsuccessfully to get away from this old codger sitting like a
bag of spuds on this pissy little Vespa scooter. Before we got eh the end
ofteh bends they'd resurfaced teh road so it was covered in gravel. I assume
he nearly stacked cos he suddenly slowed right down to about 20mph. I went
past and disappeared into eh wild blue yonder at about 50 with a cheery wave.
Sure enough it didnt take long of teh straight bit after teh resurfacing for
him to catch up.......
Cant help thinking that climbing around all over the bike like that is what
prevented him from keeping hte chassis stable enough to corner rapidly.
Paricularly when the surfaec got bad. Folk forget that racers actually DONT
corner rapidly - just brake hard and acclereate hard and hte conrers are taken
purely to maximise drive down teh next stright - so they are not taken at the
maximum speed possible for that corner. Copyin a racer to corner faster is a
bit counterproductive cos laptimes are cut on te straights not corners, so you
sacrifice corner speed to gain straight line speed.
>What that means is, if you're sitting on the seat in a relaxed fashion, just
>using counter-steering may be your only option.
No. You can do a lot more than that. You can stick a knee out oto catch the
air, move your upper body gently to set the bike in a rail into eth corner,
and wieght the pegs to alter your line and tune he bike fro over/understeer.
All without moving you bum at all.
The problem is, you need to
>not just change the momentum of the motorcycle, your body, being the highest
>center or gravity point (and detached) is the weak link to your reaction
>time. By pressuring the pegs, you've effectively placed *your* center of
>gravity much lower, making it easier to change direction.
No. You dont actually affect hte CoGat all. In ffact if pressingon hte pegs
raises your body atall then you actuallt RAISE the CoG. You alter the position
of eth pivot at which your body weight is applied to eh chassis. So what you
are altering is not the CoG but hte moment of inertia.
Andy Woodward
>Andy Woodward wrote:
His line would be completely symmetrical. Mine would be very assymettrical -
oftne even mor so that a racer's line cos the racer doesnt have to be able to
'see' hte exit before straightening up a little to get on hte power. His line
is what newbies call The Racing Line. It bears no relation at all to either a
good street line or a good racing line.
F1 definitely do NOT use lines like this. His line is a line purely to
maximise mid corner speed. For teh street you have to maximise vision
distance. And fort3h track you hae to maximise exit speed. Both of these
involve sacrificing midcorner speed. His described line would give slow
laptimes on the track and increased dnger levels on hte street.
Andy Woodward
>pressure to the inside footpeg and pull on the tank with your outside knee
>to help lean the bike over. In order to do this, you must either lead the
In the corner entry yes - wieghint inteh insde pegwill tend to bias teh bike
towards oversteer at a time wen you're puting lots of stress on teh front
contact patch by coutersteering - exactly what you want. But to set up for
the exit, wherr the peak load is gone off teh front patch, hten you shift your
ewieght to ht outside peg (if you can reach it) to bias fro understeer since
all teh really radical forces are no going thru hte back tyre.
Andy Woodward
>to ride for a few years, and knowing how people can pick up on what other
>riders say and take on board some of the most *terrible* advice, I tend to
>be sensitive about what advice is given out publicly...
Usenet advice is 90% bollocks and 10% mine...........
Andy Woodward
>body is, put a throttle lock on your bike, approach your favorite 100 mph
>turn and steer it with no hands. I think you'll be disappointed.
Done this on hte Corris bends - 10 miles of rather nice twisties - more like
40-50 than 100 - aint nobody can do eh Corris bends at 100..... I could steer
round them jst fine. Ned to plan ahead more than with countersteeing cos
wieghting is slower response, butworkd just fine.
Have you never watched kiddies ridingpushbikes mile after mle with no hands?
(I'm assuming you cant have had a bike yourself - or Alzheimers is begining to
bite...)
Andy Woodward
>over. It should all come naturally.
If you have to think 'push right - go right' then you[re too much of a newbie
to be riding fast anyway. It should be 'think right- go right'.
> go. Run over the corner exit position. Steer the motorcycle up
> straight and accelerate down the exit straight.
\See above. You don't "steer the motorcycle up". The bike just gets up
\when you smoothly open the gas.
Axctualy if you are realy pushing it on a dry raod or track, then you DO need
to slam the bike up o hte corner exit same as you slammed it down into teh
entrance. Letting it do it al by itself gives too slwo a response. Thisis
particularly obvious on the street on a long sequence of continuous Z-bends
with no straights between them. You have to slam the bike from one rail to
teh other in abouit half a second, countersteering hte bike forcibly out of
one corner and into teh next in one movement. The same principle applies to
single corners wher it trims frations of seconds off your laptime.
But then we dont ride like this away from tracks anyway, now, do we, kiddies?
NZMSC
> Usenet advice is 90% bollocks and 10% mine...........
And sometimes we wonder about that 10%....
Roque Torres
> >If you're just sitting, relaxed on your seat, then you're mereley a
> >passenger.
>
> Or an expert road rider.......
You don't get my point. The motorcycle riding straight up and down will stay
there, If you suddenly jump off, it will keep going. If you place input, it
will then change direction. If you just sit on it while it's moving, it will
go straight without a worry.
You ran across a slow rider. You can't compare relative skill to prove a
point. Bring your Vespa scooter to the track and see if you have the same
success. Somehow I doubt it.
> >What that means is, if you're sitting on the seat in a relaxed fashion,
just
> >using counter-steering may be your only option.
>
> No. You can do a lot more than that. You can stick a knee out oto catch
the
> air, move your upper body gently to set the bike in a rail into eth
corner,
> and wieght the pegs to alter your line and tune he bike fro
over/understeer.
> All without moving you bum at all.
That's using your body to place input into the bike.
> The problem is, you need to
> >not just change the momentum of the motorcycle, your body, being the
highest
> >center or gravity point (and detached) is the weak link to your reaction
> >time. By pressuring the pegs, you've effectively placed *your* center of
> >gravity much lower, making it easier to change direction.
>
> No. You dont actually affect hte CoGat all. In ffact if pressingon hte
pegs
> raises your body atall then you actuallt RAISE the CoG. You alter the
position
> of eth pivot at which your body weight is applied to eh chassis. So what
you
> are altering is not the CoG but hte moment of inertia.
You are not exactly raising your body, you are moving it below where it
would be if you sat straight up and down. The lower your body when you lean
off, the lower the COG. Placing weight on the footpegs removes more weight
from a higher point, to a lower point, hence making the movement side to
side easier, since there is less weight, higher on the motorcycle.
Stand on the footpegs of your motorcycle and tell me where the weight is
sitting. Now sit like a jocky, with your but off the seat and tell me where
your weight is. Your weight is all on the pegs both times. If you use your
feet to press on the pegs in a corner you will have placed much of your
weight below where it would be if if you kept your ass on the seat. The bulk
of your weight on the seat places the mass of your bodyweight higher and
makes the bike more difficult to heel side to side. Placing as much of your
weight on the pegs as you can will help lower that CG, and mke the bike move
side to side easier.
Roq
Roque Torres
Andy Woodward <a...@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:azw.18701...@aber.ac.uk...
> >> >straight and accelerate down the exit straight.
> >>
>X-{
>
> His line would be completely symmetrical. Mine would be very
assymettrical -
> oftne even mor so that a racer's line cos the racer doesnt have to be able
to
> 'see' hte exit before straightening up a little to get on hte power. His
line
> is what newbies call The Racing Line. It bears no relation at all to
either a
> good street line or a good racing line.
>
> F1 definitely do NOT use lines like this. His line is a line purely to
> maximise mid corner speed. For teh street you have to maximise vision
> distance. And fort3h track you hae to maximise exit speed. Both of these
> involve sacrificing midcorner speed. His described line would give slow
> laptimes on the track and increased dnger levels on hte street.
Higher entrance, and midcorner speed will = exit speed. As long as you can
keep the motorcycle pointed in the right direction you can increase speed.
You are correct in that too much midcorner *throttle* can run a motorcycle
wide. Too much entrance speed will run you wide, or tuck the front. Get the
entrance correct and maintain momentum as high as possible and the exit
takes care of itself so long as you don't overdo the throttle.
Traction dictates how fast you can go.
Roq
Andy Woodward
>point. Bring your Vespa scooter to the track and see if you have the same
>success. Somehow I doubt it.
Topping out at 60mph and with a 0-60 time best measured with a calendar I cant
help thinking you might be right..........But on those occasions when you cant
use power, like the contiuous downhill twisties I was on about, the rider is
far more important than the bike. It really doesnt matter what you ride, its
down to how well you can read the road. Now THOSE are the REAL test of a
rider. If you can do more than 40 down it, its nobbut a boring straight........
>> No. You dont actually affect hte CoGat all. In ffact if pressingon hte
>pegs
>> raises your body atall then you actuallt RAISE the CoG. You alter the
>position
>> of eth pivot at which your body weight is applied to eh chassis. So what
>you
>> are altering is not the CoG but hte moment of inertia.
>your weight is. Your weight is all on the pegs both times. If you use your
>feet to press on the pegs in a corner you will have placed much of your
>weight below where it would be if if you kept your ass on the seat. The bulk
No. Yo wont - his is hte whole point. The wieght distrubution will be in much
hte same place.
>of your weight on the seat places the mass of your bodyweight higher and
>makes the bike more difficult to heel side to side. Placing as much of your
>weight on the pegs as you can will help lower that CG, and mke the bike move
>side to side easier.
The bike will indeed move around easier - but this is an intertial effect not
a Centre of Mass effect. The only way to significantly lower the CoG of teh
bike/rider combo is to hang right down hte side ofteh bike, squatting on
one of the pegs like Injuns on horses hiding from being shot by John Wayne.
Andy Woodward
>> maximise mid corner speed. For teh street you have to maximise vision
>> distance. And fort3h track you hae to maximise exit speed. Both of these
>> involve sacrificing midcorner speed. His described line would give slow
>> laptimes on the track and increased dnger levels on hte street.
>Higher entrance, and midcorner speed will = exit speed. As long as you can
No. Your racing theory needs checking up on pronto.
>keep the motorcycle pointed in the right direction you can increase speed.
>You are correct in that too much midcorner *throttle* can run a motorcycle
>wide. Too much entrance speed will run you wide, or tuck the front. Get the
>entrance correct and maintain momentum as high as possible and the exit
>takes care of itself so long as you don't overdo the throttle.
If you plan on being FAST you really need to sort out your cornering. The
whole corener is planned backwards. The exit does NOT take care of itself, it
is teh crucial part of teh corner that you plan hte apex and entry around.
>Traction dictates how fast you can go.
Yes. Tracion DOES dictate this So you strighten hte exit so as to get as much
power down as possible for the maximum acceleration out of the corne - this
gives you the maximum speed down hte next straight which is where laptimes are
cut. BUT straighteninghte exit mans you haveto turn sharper elewhere - and
this in turn means you will be doing so slower. DSo in order to maximise the
speed down teh following straight, you tradce off a slower corner time;
trading mid corner speed for more exit acceleration and a higher exit speed.
Andy Woodward
>From: "NZMSC" <nzm...@paradise.net.nz>
>Subject: Re: Apex, radius, whats it all about?
>Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 21:48:26 +1200
>Andy Woodward wrote
>> Usenet advice is 90% bollocks and 10% mine...........
>And sometimes we wonder about that 10%....
They're right. You're a rude bugger, Allan. You've really upset me
now......
roadi...@my-deja.com
"Shredder" <aben...@dingoblue.net.au> wrote:
> So far i have to agree with the late entry point of view, so far as
racing
> goes anyway...... by having a steady radius through the apex your bike
will
> have the least possible point of friction for the maximum space of
time.
Consider two motorcycles side by side going around a circle. The one on
the inside is traveling a shorter distance and going slower. The one on
the outside is traveling faster and going a longer distance. Since
centrifugal force goes up as the square of the velocity, the person on
the inside can go faster before reaching the limit of traction and has
the advantage. So why would someone use the wide fast line through a
corner? To keep the speed up. The harder you can accelerate the better
the shorter, slower line is. Lot's of racing expressions to support
this. Having the "inside line" is good. Passing on the outside is
difficult. High power car drivers often say "Don't screw around with
wide sweeping arcs, spend as little time in the corner as possible and
accelerate out as hard as you can." On the street, the difference in
speed between corners and straights is rather small (cause I'm more or
less obeying the speed limit). On a track the situation would be
entirely different. So yes I only described the "longer, faster" path.
The "shorter, slower" path (called squaring off the corner?) I don't
much use, but go ahead, spin up the tires coming out of the corners.
It's your choice. I rather enjoyed the mails from the riders who took
the time to intelligently discuss the advantages and disadvantes of
various techniques. Might even try some them on the next ride.
By
> turning in late your time of least friction is much less, plus your
bike
> will be straightened up much earlier allowing to get on the gas
sooner. This
> is one area where Mick Doohan kicked ass in his riding style. You
would
> always see him straighten the bike and get on the gas much much
earlier than
> the other riders.
>
> Anyway here is an article you all may find interesting. (note it goes
onto
> page 2 etc, link at the bottom right)
>
>
http://www.bikenet-racing.com/Features/article.asp?id=522&Section=Featur
es&p
> age=1
>
I'm always puzzled by pictures like this. If the rider can turn as
sharply as he does at the entrance, why not turn this sharply through
the whole curve? Or go even faster and turn less sharply?
> Andrew
rogue...@my-deja.com
tzr...@NOSPAMyahoo.com (Andy Burnett) wrote:
> rogue...@my-deja.com wrote in <8ll7vg$f0q$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>:
> >But what does
> >Pridmore, Code, & Spencer know anyway....
>
> Pridmore teaches it; I don't know what Spencer teaches; I can assure
you
> beyond any doubt that Code does not teach it or advocate doing it.
Pridmore teaches weighing the inside footpeg, Code teaches weighing the
outside peg for a stronger leverage during counter-steering.
My point is that the effects of using your lower body are
> so minimal on a moving bike that they're not worth the effort.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes. The effects are minimal compared to the effects of counter-
steering. But you have to remember that the body movements are there
to supplement, not replace counter-steering. In addition, the effects
may be minimal but they are noticeable.
> Most of the most successful racers aren't body steering. Rainey
didn't,
> Lawson didn't, Koscinski didn't, Chandler didn't, Mladin and Nicky
Hayden
> aren't doing it and so on. Who are you thinking of?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
So when these racers are hanging off the bike, they're NOT weighing
either footpeg? They're not using their knees to brace themselves
against the tank? I find this hard to believe. So you've talked with
these racers and know this for a fact?
> First, my understanding of body steering is that you apply downward
> pressure to the inside footpeg and pull on the tank with your outside
knee
> to help lean the bike over.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay. That sounds appropriate.
>
> The extra body movement can upset the chassis. The rider's weight is
> shifting around and he's not stable on the bike as it reaches maximum
lean.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The extra body movement(not body steering) is done before the turn.
Not during. You're not moving around in the seat while the bike is
leaning and reaching maximum lean.
>
> Many, many riders countersteer inefficiently, pushing somewhat down
on the
> bars. The bars don't turn down; they turn forward and even slightly
up.
> If you countersteer a bike this way, you start to see how efficient
it is
> and wonder why you'd do anything in addition. There are plenty of
things
> to think about when entering a turn fast, and I'm looking for ways to
get
> rid of a few. Because this technique doesn't really do much to turn
the
> bike, and does involve more muscles and attention right at the turn
point,
> I'll do without it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whatever works for you.
>
> Weighting the inside footpeg decreases the leverage you have on the
inside
> handlebar.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't notice this happening. When I weigh the inside footpeg, I find
it easier to steer with the inside bar.
Pressing on the *outside* footpeg at the instant you
> countersteer provides noticably more power for countersteering. You
can't
> do both.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course not! That's why you choose one or the other. I choose
weighing the inside peg because I find it helps lean the bike and makes
it feel more stable.
>
> If the bike slides while you've got weight on the inside peg, the
bike will
> fall more quickly than if you have pressure on the outside. To be
clear, I
> *don't* mean that you're leaning to the outside; I mean you're
hanging off
> the inside, holding yourself in place primarily with your outside
knee
> against the tank and bearing down on the outside footpeg.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
To me that's unnatural. If I'm hanging off the inside, most of my
weight is going to be on the inside footpeg and not the outside. And
if the the bike slides, whether it does so a bit slower or faster has
the same end result. If your tires wash out, it will do so quickly
enough that it wouldn't matter which side your weighing.
>
> Finally, body steering requires setup prior to the turn. The rider
must be
> able to anticipate the upcoming turn and have his body off the bike
to be
> able to pull it over. Not a big deal for most cornering scenarios,
as most
> of us can tell ahead of time if it's a right or left turn. In an
evasive
> turn, you may have no idea where you're going to turn until you have
to.
> Countersteering will let you turn the bike quickly with no setup time
at
> all.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes. You're right. The use of the rest of the body along with counter-
steering does require set up time before the turn. It's really not
something you want to use to make an emergency evasive move. It's used
mostly to make your riding smoother and perhaps increase your corner
speeds.
If you've come to believe that you must body steer at all times (some
> do; this can seem like a religious conversation sometimes), the extra
> delay, short though it may be, can be dangerous.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
What gave you that idea? I never advocated using ONLY "body steering"
at all times. Don't start putting words in my mouth.
>
> So, my reasons to favor pure countersteering are:
>
> - It always works,
> - It's efficient of effort and attention,
> - It doesn't upset the chassis,
> - It doesn't require setup time.
>
> The strength of my first reply on this subject had less to do with
whether
> to body steer as it did with the assertion that countersteering
wasn't
> always appropriate. Those sound like the words of someone who has
some
> misunderstandings about countersteering.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no idea where you came up with "the assertion that
countersteering wasn't always appropriate". Who asserted that? Wasn't
me nor anybody else around here that's for sure. I think you're
referring to the assertion that besides counter-steering, many riders
use the rest of their body to help steer the bike. What that means is
the use of the knees, the weighing of the footpegs, etc.
>
> More than whether people body steer or not, I'm concerned that people
know
> how to countersteer efficiently. It's reliable, quick and the best
way to
> steer out of a surprise. If you know how to countersteer and still
have a
> use for body steering, knock yourself out.
>
> ab
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. However, in your initial response, you seemed to believe that
counter-steering is the ONLY best way to steer the bike and everything
else that helps is a waste of anyone's time.
Roque Torres
--
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Andy Woodward <a...@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:8lmct5$pti$1...@dyfi.aber.ac.uk...
> >You ran across a slow rider. You can't compare relative skill to prove a
> >point. Bring your Vespa scooter to the track and see if you have the same
> >success. Somehow I doubt it.
>
> Topping out at 60mph and with a 0-60 time best measured with a calendar I
cant
> help thinking you might be right..........But on those occasions when you
cant
> use power, like the contiuous downhill twisties I was on about, the rider
is
> far more important than the bike. It really doesnt matter what you ride,
its
> down to how well you can read the road. Now THOSE are the REAL test of a
> rider. If you can do more than 40 down it, its nobbut a boring
straight........
Of course you are right. Straightaways speeds mean very little when it comes
to being a skilled rider. I know many riders that turn faster lap times on
GSXR750's, but are actually less skilled overall racers than a person
turning slightly slower laptimes on a Ninja 250. One of my personal favorite
excercises is to go slow on the straights, then work the corners smoothly,
and in a single gear if possible. Maintaining momentum, smoothness, and
accuracy are the key to getting the corners right. Once I've gotten my
corner speed to a satisfactory level, then I can start acclerating hard, and
braking hard. Get the corners wrong and you might as well not be out there.
> >your weight is. Your weight is all on the pegs both times. If you use
your
> >feet to press on the pegs in a corner you will have placed much of your
> >weight below where it would be if if you kept your ass on the seat. The
bulk
>
> No. Yo wont - his is hte whole point. The wieght distrubution will be in
much
> hte same place.
Sit in a chair. All of your weight is resting higher, on the seat of the
chair.
Sit in a chair, lean forward and place most of your weight on your feet. You
have removed most of the weight from the seat and placed it on the ground.
In order to get out of the chair, you must have changed where the weight was
in order to move. Without place all of your weight on the ground, you would
have to expend a whole lot of energy to scoot off of the seat.
> The bike will indeed move around easier - but this is an intertial effect
not
> a Centre of Mass effect. The only way to significantly lower the CoG of
teh
> bike/rider combo is to hang right down hte side ofteh bike, squatting on
> one of the pegs like Injuns on horses hiding from being shot by John
Wayne.
A rider changes the center of gravity by placing their body to the left or
right. Once the motorcycle is leaned over, the riders body, being below the
seat (if you stayed put) has effectively lowered the center of gravity. I'm
not a scientist, I'm a racer, but the facts are that keeping your ass
planted on the seat and using only countersteering is *not* a good
technique. If it were, racers would use it. Believe me, if I could plant my
ass on the seat and go just as fast, I would.
Roq
Rick Damiani
wrote:
>You are not exactly raising your body, you are moving it below where it
>would be if you sat straight up and down. The lower your body when you lean
>off, the lower the COG. Placing weight on the footpegs removes more weight
>from a higher point, to a lower point, hence making the movement side to
>side easier, since there is less weight, higher on the motorcycle.
Roque, the CoG of the motorcycle-rider system is not dependant on
where the rider attaches himself to the motorcycle. Raising your butt
fractionally off the seat does not lower the CoG of the system. In
fact, it will raise it by a small amount.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast ..................... Rick Damiani
and no one will talk to a host that's close .... ri...@nospam.paton.com
Unless the host (that isn't close) ......... ri...@nospam.earthlink.net
is busy, hung or dead ..............................NGI# T695 DoD #2659
'99 Triumph Sprint ST (Guppy) ....... '86 Yamaha Radian (Fire Breather)
Andy Burnett
Thanks for kicking this around in a constructive way. I have some comments
below in the spirit of conversation, though it looks like we'll probably agree
to disagree on body steering (maybe other things too) to some extent.
tor...@yahoo.com (Roque Torres) wrote in
<4nvf5.60509$i5.9...@news1.frmt1.sfba.home.com>:
>It's also requires more effort in your arms, thus ending up in arm pump
>for many riders. I've had many students explain that they're getting
>tired and pumped up. They're holding on too tightly, and sometimes
>they're just using their arms to haul over a high hp motorcycle.
>Stopping a GSXR1100, then trying to turn that behemoth takes a lot more
>physical effort than a 125GP bike, so using just your arms is not that
>easy. Bending a GSXR1100 into a corner while it still slows down is
>even more difficult. All that weight and gyroscopic effect take some
>serious physical effort. Using just your arms is very, very difficult
>for most people.
I work for a different school and have also had many students indicate trouble
with countersteering a big bike. In my experience, it always comes down to
countersteering inefficiently. You can observe most riders sitting upright
(even some who hang off) with their arms nearly straight. Their shoulders are
higher than their wrists and because their arms are straight, they can only be
pushing diagonally forward and down. The bars don't turn forward and down,
they turn forward and slightly up. As soon as I ask the rider to slouch and
bend his arms until the forearms are parallel to the ground, he finds he can
push straight forward on the bars. Students are startled at the difference it
makes, saying the bike suddenly feels like it has power steering.
Some bikes are heavier steering than others, but what I describe above works on
anything. I can turn any bike hard this way with little effort. As the bike
goes faster, the gyroscopes do increase the required force, but I can still get
most bikes from upright to max lean in about a half-second at 100 mph with
modest (and only momentary) effort.
>I use my body to help turn the bike as well as my arms. The movement I
>use is smooth, precise and in concert with leaning off the motorcycle.
>All movements must blend together in order to maintain a smooth action.
I've done this too and I know it feels good and distributes the effort over not
only more muscle groups but a greater period of time. Because the body leads
the bike by an instant, you move its mass separately from that of the bike.
There's no value judgement in that statement; it's just what's happening.
Regarding smoothness: That's not something I value particularly. I'm going to
say this a little more strongly than I probably mean, but people get really
fascinated with becoming smooth. I care more about precision, quickness and
timing. When someone tells you, "be smooth," what do you do with that? Slow
down my turn rate? I don't think so, thanks. There's nothing very specific
about smoothness.
I'm all for violence when riding a motorcycle. I like snapping a bike into
turns hard. I can run lines many riders can't touch at the same speeds because
of this. If I can turn the bike faster, I can ultimately get through the turn
faster; there is a point at which your sense of how fast you can take a turn is
limited by how fast you can steer the bike. Screw smooth. The bike doesn't
seem to care much about smooth either. Even older bikes.
This past weekend at Thunderhill, I was first on scene when a rider highsided
at the top of turn nine. He was lying on the racing line, flopping around,
with his bike right on the crest of the hill leaking antifreeze all over the
track. I parked and ran down the outside of the turn and began waving the
nearest riders to slow down, as they were looking at their turn point rather
than the yellow flag and had no idea they were about to encounter this mess.
The lead rider looked up, saw me, and grabbed the brake while leaned over. I
though sure she was going to crash and so did she, because she just went limp
and let go, seeming to know she was history. The bike snapped upright
unbelievably fast, she stayed aboard, made the turn and got it stopped. There
was nothing smooth about all this, but the bike handled it fine.
Of course, I don't really advocate riding this way or otherwise inviting
crashes by doing insane things with the controls. By the admonition, "be
smooth" causes many riders to pussyfoot around with control operations that can
be done firmly and decisively. Interestingly, when a rider performs these
actions quickly, precisely and at just the right time, you'd watch it and say,
"That gal is smooth!"
>The fact that I can use different muscle groups to help turn the
>motorcycle actually *saves* energy. Using just my arms requires that I
>use smaller muscles to do the same amount of work which causes those
>muscles to reach their limit sooner. Spreading the load out throughout
>my body decreases the overall physical effort of each muscle group,
>spreads out the turning motion on the motorcycle and makes everything
>smoother. I can last longer on the motorcycle and the motorcycle likes
>the action more than yanking on just the bars.
I do understand what you're saying and agree with it, up to the point where we
start talking about smoothness. If a person is yanking on the bars, they're
going to upset the bike. No argument. Bar-yanking isn't proper
countersteering. You can turn a bike *hard* (via countersteering) with no
chassis upset. And the rider can even involve more muscles in the effort,
making it seem easier.
The key is to push on the inside bar with the palm of your inside hand. The
fingers should be relaxed and the hand should not tense at the end of the
movement. This produces that smoothness I keep saying I don't care about. ;-)
Pivot steering (the topic at this weekend's Doc Wong clinic, oddly enough) is
the name Keith Code gave to bracing yourself with the outside foot against the
pressure of countersteering. If you're making a left turn, you press down and
back with the right foot at the instant you're pressing forward on the left
bar. This gives you a stable platform to push from and involves the skeleton
and large muscles in bracing yourself. It also doesn't require you to change
position.
>In reality, a small amount of countersteering initializes the turn, in
>company with using your outside knee in the tank, feet on pegs and some
>body english. Used properly, all of these movements can be used upon the
>same turn in point so there is no difference in "setup time".
For a turn you anticipate, this is true. Like you, I hang off the bike very
early, so it's done before I get to the turn. When I get to the turn point, I
push with the inside hand, where you do that in conjuction with your knees and
feet. Both of us can do what we do at the turn point.
What I alluded to with regard to setup time was the case of the unexpected
emergency turn. I don't know about you, but I'm not likely to hang off for
those; there's usually not time. It seems to me that body steering somewhat
depends on shifting our body to the inside before you *can* apply force (that
accomplishes anything) to the tank or pegs.
>The only problem I can see is that most people don't excercise their
>lower body much and it takes some effort to move around on a motorcycle.
>Flopping around is the result of being tired and that's not good
>technique and that's why most accomplished motorcycle racers are rather
>athletic and/or strong.
No disagreement at all. Whether I body steer or not, the fitness question
remains the same, since I do hang off.
>If you're just sitting, relaxed on your seat, then you're mereley a
>passenger. Racers rarely sit on the seat as though they are on a long
>highway ride. Street riding along a freeway allows relaxation. Track
>riding is more akin to being a horse Jockey. If you're just crusing in
>the pits, then you can sit in the saddle, but once on the track, a racer
>is rarely *sitting* still in a relaxed position. More often the racer is
>up on the pegs, braced against the tank, or trying to keep the front
>wheel down. Those using lazy or poor technique may suffer from "setup
>time" movements as they flop their body around. Isometric movements are
>required when riding, or racing a motorcycle so that the motorcycle does
>not know you are on it's back. Very physically demanding for a racer to
>remain as invisible (movement-wise) as possible.
All true. My own riding style involves moving all over the bike, at least side
to side. I don't move fore and aft all that much because it introduces a
variable that's pretty hard to tune suspension for.
>By pressuring the pegs, you've effectively placed
>*your* center of gravity much lower, making it easier to change
>direction.
I don't really want to get the old center of gravity debate raging again, but
putting pressure on the pegs doesn't do a thing to the bike's center of gravity
or yours. On the other hand, if you crouch on the pegs and body steer, pulling
the bike down after you, you're turning the bike by itself, because you've
already leaned ahead of it. The bike has a lower center of gravity than the
bike with you sitting on it, so if you move the bike independantly of yourself,
you are moving a lighter mass and one with a lower CG.
To close, I know you're a fine rider. Gary Jaehne had always spoken highly of
your riding before I'd seen you ride, and I've seen you firsthand while racing
with you. It's fine with me if you body steer, as it seems to be working for
you. For me, it takes more of my attention than it pays back in results, so I
don't do it.
ab
rogue...@my-deja.com
mispelled words but Geezus! The way you type it's like reading a
drunken Russian trying to type English. Are you missing a few fingers
or something???? C'mon! Try seperating the words at least!
Andy Burnett
>>> - It always works,
>
>Mostly well. Soemtimes badly. Dependds on the situation adn what tyou
>are trying to acheive. Countersteeringcan put your irons in the fire
>aswell as pul hem out.
Your post almost doesn't warrant a reply, as you're taking potshots without
offering any information to support what you say. Still, I can't help
myself.
Tell me about a circumstance where countersteering doesn't work.
Understand, I'm talking about street riding, not riding in deep sand.
Other than that, common conditions apply: wet, dry, gravel, whatever. So,
when does countersteering not work well?
>Actualy it upsets the chasis more than hte alternatives becaouse it
>involves physically forcingteh front whel to dosomething instead of
>lettting the bike steer its own front wehel itself.
Then you're not doing it right. Period.
>Contersteering is the sledgehammer body, weighting is hte rapier.
>Soemtimes sledgehammersare just too coarse a tool. Although most of teh
>time the sledgemhammer is more use.
This is all very mystical. Can you give me an example of how
countersteering is "coarse?" I can countersteer to the inch with my body
stable on the bike, nice and loose, with minimal effort and without
upsetting the chassis. What am I missing out on?
>If you know hwo to counter steer and DONT still hae a use forr
>weighting, hten you have reachedthat advanced statwe of newbiedom wwher
>a little knowledge can a dangerous thing........You have learned
>something but think that's everything. Not time to leave the monastery
>yet Glasshoppa.
Please enlighten me then, oh mystical oracle of nonsense. Guys like you
try to make riding a motorcycle seem much more complicated than it is.
Perhaps you think it makes your own mastery look like a much greater feat.
It makes you look like you're trying too hard to me.
>I had a hilarious incident...(snip)
>I saw a motorcycle...(snip)
>I thought...(snip)
>I slowed right down...(snip)
>I though I'd have some fun...(snip)
>I speeded up and sat about 3-4 seconsd behind him...(snip)
>I assume he nearly stacked cos he suddenly slowed...(snip)
>I went past and disappeared into eh wild blue yonder...(snip)
You must've been waiting for a chance to share this with us ever since.
Glad I could provide an opening.
>Folk forget that racers
>actually DONT corner rapidly - just brake hard and acclereate hard and
>hte conrers are taken purely to maximise drive down teh next stright -
>so they are not taken at the maximum speed possible for that corner.
Done a lot of 125 and 250 racing, have you?
>Copyin a racer to corner faster is a bit counterproductive cos laptimes
>are cut on te straights not corners, so you sacrifice corner speed to
>gain straight line speed.
Kind of depends on the bike, wouldn't you say? Racing a TZ250 against
modern 600's is pretty interesting. They'll park in the turn in front of
you, then run away down the next straight. If you pass them in a turn,
they may pass back down the next straight. If you pass them going into a
*series* of turns, you may not see them again.
>...and wieght the pegs to alter your line and tune he bike fro
>over/understeer.
How does that work?
>No. You dont actually affect hte CoGat all. In ffact if pressingon hte
>pegs raises your body atall then you actuallt RAISE the CoG. You alter
>the position of eth pivot at which your body weight is applied to eh
>chassis. So what you are altering is not the CoG but hte moment of
>inertia.
I agree with this. Nice to end on a cheerful note, yes?
ab
John Rabasa
> To me that's unnatural. If I'm hanging off the inside, most of my
> weight is going to be on the inside footpeg and not the outside. And
> if the the bike slides, whether it does so a bit slower or faster has
> the same end result. If your tires wash out, it will do so quickly
> enough that it wouldn't matter which side your weighing.
hmmm ... do you race?
i don't know very many racers who put all their weight all on the inside
... that really does help you lowside if you're going fast thru a turn.
i'm guessing if you really are fast, then you've got more of your weight
elsewhere (tank, outside leg) and don't realize it ...
most racers i know distribute weight on their lower body to keep themselves
positioned on the bike. if you don't think it works, try it on a dirt bike
and you'll get the idea of how you'll break traction quicker if you only
weight you inside peg.
(this is regardless of body steering, it's where they are when they are in
the turn)
jr
Steve
a roadracing course and spend a season racing in a club. What he's saying
makes perfect sense.
Andy, I feel your pain, dude.
Andy Burnett <tzr...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8F7D95C36tzr...@207.155.183.83...
> Please enlighten me then, oh mystical oracle of nonsense. Guys like you
rogue...@my-deja.com
"Steve" <n...@home.com> wrote:
> I don't understand why everyone has to give Andy B. such a hard
time. Take
> a roadracing course and spend a season racing in a club. What he's
saying
> makes perfect sense.
>
> Andy, I feel your pain, dude.
My beef is just with his typing that's all. My 8-year old types better!
Andy Burnett
>Pridmore teaches weighing the inside footpeg, Code teaches weighing the
>outside peg for a stronger leverage during counter-steering.
Right you are.
>Yes. The effects are minimal compared to the effects of counter-
>steering. But you have to remember that the body movements are there
>to supplement, not replace counter-steering. In addition, the effects
>may be minimal but they are noticeable.
I do understand that. I don't need the supplement and find that it
actually give me enough extra to think about when I'm right on top of my
turn point that it slows me down. Could be because it's not a practiced
technique for me. There's another piece to this though: You appear to
value smoothness more than I do; I suspect I value simplicity more than you
do.
>So when these racers are hanging off the bike, they're NOT weighing
>either footpeg? They're not using their knees to brace themselves
>against the tank? I find this hard to believe. So you've talked with
>these racers and know this for a fact?
Resting weight on the pegs and bracing your knee against the tank
*statically* is not body steering. These guys probably do have weight on
the inside peg -- you almost have to when hanging off, since you're
practically sitting on your heel. The difference between this and body
steering is visible though. If they are body steering, the bike will move
more than the rider's body does right at the turn point. That's the rider
actively pushing down on the inside peg and pulling the bike down by the
tank as he turns it. So, you can see the difference and don't need to talk
with a guy to find out if he's doing it.
I have talked with some of the guys I mentioned. Keith Code coached the
first four for years. I teach for CSS, which probably explains my bias,
though it's a chicken and egg question, meaning they probably wouldn't have
asked if I didn't demonstrate that style. My opinion, though, is not a
matter of marketing some kind of differentiator between schools and I'm not
speaking for anyone but myself when I have online conversations. My
opinion is a reflection of what I have found to be effective and efficient
in my own riding and with the hundreds of students I've worked with. There
are other points of view; I'm just telling you why I have the one I do.
>The extra body movement(not body steering) is done before the turn.
>Not during. You're not moving around in the seat while the bike is
>leaning and reaching maximum lean.
Unless I completely misunderstand body steering, it does involve movement
in relation to the bike as the bike leans over. You're pulling it over
with your knee, right? Your butt may not slide around in the seat, but you
are moving independently of the bike.
>Whatever works for you.
This seems to be where we'll leave the topic.
>I don't notice this happening. When I weigh the inside footpeg, I find
>it easier to steer with the inside bar.
A static experiment will show the difference. Stand with your feet
shoulder-witdh apart, facing a wall a couple of feet away. Raise your left
foot and push against the wall with your right hand. Now, switch feet and
press against the wall with your right hand. You should notice that your
body is in better balance between its diagonal opposite corners. Its main
mass is between the two points of contact. This translates to sitting on a
sportbike. It's useless on a cruiser.
>Pressing on the *outside* footpeg at the instant you
>> countersteer provides noticably more power for countersteering. You
>can't
>> do both.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Of course not! That's why you choose one or the other.
Right. I wasn't being argumentative, just stating a fact. Sorry if you
found it too obvious.
>To me that's unnatural. If I'm hanging off the inside, most of my
>weight is going to be on the inside footpeg and not the outside. And
>if the the bike slides, whether it does so a bit slower or faster has
>the same end result. If your tires wash out, it will do so quickly
>enough that it wouldn't matter which side your weighing.
Truthfully, when I hang off, much of my weight ends up on the inside foot.
That's just the way it goes when you don't have the flexibility of a 15
year old girl. When I weight the outside peg, I am at best probably
evening the load between the two. I do this when sliding in the rain and
it really does make a difference in how fast the bike will fall over when
it slides.
>What gave you that idea? I never advocated using ONLY "body steering"
>at all times. Don't start putting words in my mouth.
I should have avoided the word "you," as I meant it generically, as in
"one." A number of friends have ended up with the idea that Reg teaches
body steering instead of countersteering. I've never personally heard him
say that, but it matters to me that a number of people come out with that
notion.
>I have no idea where you came up with "the assertion that
>countersteering wasn't always appropriate". Who asserted that? Wasn't
>me nor anybody else around here that's for sure.
I think this is the quote that caught my interest.
"Steve" said,
<<btw, all turns should be countersteered. -early apex, late apex, turn at
an intersection - they're all countersteered.>>
Then "ayrblake replied,
<<Ummmm.....Not if you talk to Reggie Pridmore.....
He says, (and i agree) that the only time the suspension can work properly
thru corners(and bumps) is when the bike is in balance, ie, You could take
your hands off the grips and the bike would continue thru the corner the
same way. You'll find that if you counter steer as a practice, that your
front tire will not mimic your back tire in wear.>>
I didn't quote the whole thing.
Then Andy Woodward piped up,
<<No. You countersteer when it ishte bestsolution to he problem. You dont
when it isnt.
There are several ways to steer a bike. Counterseering only has one
advantage over the others - that its by far the fastest - this can be a
disadvantage on bad surfaces.>>
Maybe these posts didn't show up on your server?
>I think you're
>referring to the assertion that besides counter-steering, many riders
>use the rest of their body to help steer the bike.
No, I was referring to the assertion that countersteering isn't always
appropriate.
>Exactly. However, in your initial response, you seemed to believe that
>counter-steering is the ONLY best way to steer the bike and everything
>else that helps is a waste of anyone's time.
I did sound that way, didn't I?
One of the things this conversation is making me realize is that people do
have different values around the results they expect in their riding. I
value simple, direct, efficient, safe techniques. They're what I use;
they're what I advocate.
Most of the riders I've coached who found countersteering required enough
effort to warrant a "supplement" changed their mind after learning to
countersteer efficiently. I doubt you would, as you have found value in
body steering that I never did.
ab
Denise Howard
> If you know hwo to counter steer and DONT still hae a use forr weighting, hten
> you have reachedthat advanced statwe of newbiedom wwher a little knowledge can
> a dangerous thing........You have learned something but think that's
> everything. Not time to leave the monastery yet Glasshoppa.
Go ahead and tell Keith Code that. C'mon, I dare you.
> Folk forget that racers actually DONT
> corner rapidly - just brake hard and acclereate hard and hte conrers are taken
> purely to maximise drive down teh next stright - so they are not taken at the
> maximum speed possible for that corner. Copyin a racer to corner faster is a
> bit counterproductive cos laptimes are cut on te straights not corners, so you
> sacrifice corner speed to gain straight line speed.
I don't know what races you've been watching, but they're none of the ones
I've seen. The WSB guys are fast _everywhere_. Even down at my level of
racing, the laptimes are a result of keeping as much speed as possible
through the corners; it's always easy to tell who the novices are--they're
the ones who go all-out down the straights and then tiptoe around the
corners. Their laptimes reflect it.
Denise AFM #732
'95 CBR600 F3
'88 EX250 racebike
'00 SV650
'89 EX500 racebike
Andy Burnett
<NZJf5.82167$dF.29...@news1.rdc1.il.home.com>:
>Andy, I feel your pain, dude.
Of necessity, my skin is getting thicker. Thanks for that, though.
ab
Andy Burnett
>Done this on hte Corris bends - 10 miles of rather nice twisties - more
>like 40-50 than 100 - aint nobody can do eh Corris bends at 100..... I
>could steer round them jst fine. Ned to plan ahead more than with
>countersteeing cos wieghting is slower response, butworkd just fine.
When I say a 100 mph turn I mean a turn that you can only take at 100 mph.
Or a 50 mph turn, for that matter. Not an 80 mph turn that you could
manage at 50 with no hands. How fast can you ride the Corris bends with
your hands?
>Have you never watched kiddies ridingpushbikes mile after mle with no
>hands? (I'm assuming you cant have had a bike yourself - or Alzheimers
>is begining to bite...)
Are you trying to suggest that this is remotely similar to steering a
motorcycle with no hands?
ab
Tim Morrow
>
> a...@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward) wrote in <azw.18700...@aber.ac.uk>:
(and wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote....)
> >Folk forget that racers
> >actually DONT corner rapidly - just brake hard and acclereate hard and
> >hte conrers are taken purely to maximise drive down teh next stright -
> >so they are not taken at the maximum speed possible for that corner.
Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. When they're not, they're
still taken DAMN fast. Much faster than any prudent rider would attempt
on a public road.
Hi Adny. (Hi Dan, Hi Allan, Hi everyone else!)
Tim Morrow
--
http://www.FlaminDucRacing.com
Andy Burnett
>My beef is just with his typing that's all. My 8-year old types better!
I'm losing track of who's replying to whom. Are you talking to me or
Woodward?
ab
Dan Nitschke
> Hi Adny. (Hi Dan, Hi Allan, Hi everyone else!)
Hi, Tim! <waving>
Long time no... type.
--
/* dan: The Anti-Ged, BOF #26, GAGARPHOF (tm) #1, LCDB (tm) #1 */
Dan Nitschke peDA...@idiom.com (.....)@(......).net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Though his mind is not for rent, don't put him down as
arrogant. -- Rush, 'Tom Sawyer'
NZMSC
> >> Usenet advice is 90% bollocks and 10% mine...........
Allan wrote
> >And sometimes we wonder about that 10%....
Andy Woodward wrote
> They're right. You're a rude bugger, Allan. You've really upset me
> now......
Never mind, Andy. Take one apex, 2 radii, and two wheels. Mix well at speed
and enjoy. You'll feel so much better!
Denise Howard
> My beef is just with his typing that's all. My 8-year old types better!
Um, you're thinking of the wrong Andy on the thread. Andy Woodward is the
one with the crummy typing. Andy Burnett is the one who received the word
of support.
NZMSC
> Go ahead and tell Keith Code that. C'mon, I dare you.
Denise, you don't know what you're saying! If nothing else, consider Keith!
Denise Howard
>
> Denise Howard wrote
>> Go ahead and tell Keith Code that. C'mon, I dare you.
>
> Denise, you don't know what you're saying! If nothing else, consider Keith!
True, Keith is built like a pool cue. Then again Andy B. is built like a
linebacker and works for Keith so it'll work out. :-)
Jørund Seim
<rogue...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8lnjeu$6ir$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> To me that's unnatural. If I'm hanging off the inside, most of my
> weight is going to be on the inside footpeg and not the outside. And
> if the the bike slides, whether it does so a bit slower or faster has
> the same end result. If your tires wash out, it will do so quickly
> enough that it wouldn't matter which side your weighing.
I don't agree. This year, I have been practising weighing the outside peg at
trackdays. At first it was difficult, I found it harder to steer, and it
felt unnatural. I still don't master it to perfection, but it gets much
better now, and I can steer the bike quite fast. Anyway, I've had a few
slides, and what I've noticed is that when weighing the outside peg, the
slides are much easier to catch. Every racer I've talked to have told me the
same thing: Put pressure on the outside peg...
--
Jørund Seim
Copenhagen, Denmark
http://www.motorcycle-dk.com
Andy Woodward
>> Hi Adny. (Hi Dan, Hi Allan, Hi everyone else!)
>Hi, Tim! <waving>
>Long time no... type.
Hi.Tim. Good to see you again. Whereyabin?
Andy Woodward
>>My beef is just with his typing that's all. My 8-year old types better!
>I'm losing track of who's replying to whom. Are you talking to me or
>Woodward?
Be reasonabkle! Look the content - who's it LIKELY to be.......?
Andy Woodward
That's going to be a very boring turn indeed when taken at teh mandatory
speed limit......You could pretty much steer it by dragging a foot along the
gound like a sledge.....
>Or a 50 mph turn, for that matter. Not an 80 mph turn that you could
>manage at 50 with no hands. How fast can you ride the Corris bends with
>your hands?
Obviosly much faster cos i can getafar faster response from countersteering.
OPn the other hand I could ride it likethis on black ice where any input thru
the bars dumps you instantly. There are many eways to steer a bike. They all
have adbvantages and disadvantages so you use them all as approriate.
Coutersteering is by far the fastes wya to steer a bike, but the response
speed is gained by putting more force thru the front contact patch. Fine on a
dry track, but not awlways a great idea on a wet/gravelly road. Even on hte
track you can see the efects in that the Rainmeisters are rarely the folk who
go best in the dry and vice versa.
Probably cos hte rainmeisters are using
lines, power deflivery and steering techniques which happen to be right for
those conditions but are not in hte dry e.g. body steering is god for the
wet cos its way smoother in its applicatio of foce to teh front contact
patch, but is too lslow in respons to give fast laptimes in teh dry.
And similarly the dry masters coant ride in the wet cos their dry weather
techinques that put them at the front of teh grid now put them off at teh
corners e.g. strong countersteering entering a corner is going to have you
ploughing straight on in a pretty lowside as the front wheel goes where it
chooses.
There are lots of guns in teh armoury - the expert uses what's appropriate for
the conditions. Countersteering is Good(tm) and it generally hte most useful
stering technique you can learn by far (actually you dont have to learn it -
if you've ridden a pushbike as a kid, you are doing it anyway - learning it
just allows you to do it more focefuly). BUT it is NOT hte ONLY solution that
encompasses ALL steering as would be read from many folk on Usenet.
>>Have you never watched kiddies ridingpushbikes mile after mle with no
>>hands? (I'm assuming you cant have had a bike yourself - or Alzheimers
>>is begining to bite...)
>Are you trying to suggest that this is remotely similar to steering a
>motorcycle with no hands?
Yes. Of course. It is. The physics is hte same - only the bike is a lot
heavier. Are you trying to suggest it isnt? Maybe you could outline where the
physics differs?
Rick Damiani
Roque Torres
> >Higher entrance, and midcorner speed will = exit speed. As long as you
can
>
> No. Your racing theory needs checking up on pronto.
My "theory" is called "experience". Go slow into the corner, and slow in the
middle of the corner and you will be going slow out of the corner. You can
go slower into the corner, accelerated through the corner to get a nice
drive onto the straight but you can also go faster into the corner, same
midcorner speed and you will have gained time out onto the straight. Funny
thing is, the added speed will require less throttle.
> >keep the motorcycle pointed in the right direction you can increase
speed.
> >You are correct in that too much midcorner *throttle* can run a
motorcycle
> >wide. Too much entrance speed will run you wide, or tuck the front. Get
the
> >entrance correct and maintain momentum as high as possible and the exit
> >takes care of itself so long as you don't overdo the throttle.
>
> If you plan on being FAST you really need to sort out your cornering. The
> whole corener is planned backwards. The exit does NOT take care of itself,
it
> is teh crucial part of teh corner that you plan hte apex and entry around.
If you botch the entrance, that time you lost is gone forever. If you botch
the midcorner, the time you lose is gone forever. The entrance and midcorner
line and speed will dictate the exit speed. The exit takes care of itself
providing you did the rest correctly.
> >Traction dictates how fast you can go.
>
> Yes. Tracion DOES dictate this So you strighten hte exit so as to get as
much
> power down as possible for the maximum acceleration out of the corne -
this
> gives you the maximum speed down hte next straight which is where laptimes
are
> cut. BUT straighteninghte exit mans you haveto turn sharper elewhere - and
> this in turn means you will be doing so slower. DSo in order to maximise
the
> speed down teh following straight, you tradce off a slower corner time;
> trading mid corner speed for more exit acceleration and a higher exit
speed.
You are speaking of a 90 degree, theoretically perfect corner, and you're
talking about a certain type of motorcycle (high hp horsepower). Try going
slow in the middle of a corner on a 125GP bike and you'll no doubt end up in
last place. Same for a 250GP bike. An EX250 Ninja will require the
maintenance of momentum as well. Perhaps on a 500GP bike you would need to
point and shoot, or a superbike even, but sometimes midcorner and entrance
speed are essential to gaining tenths of a second, while still maintaining
your exit drive.
Roq
Andy Woodward
>>I had a hilarious incident...(snip)
>>I saw a motorcycle...(snip)
>>I thought...(snip)
>>I slowed right down...(snip)
>>I though I'd have some fun...(snip)
>>I speeded up and sat about 3-4 seconsd behind him...(snip)
>>I assume he nearly stacked cos he suddenly slowed...(snip)
>>I went past and disappeared into eh wild blue yonder...(snip)
>You must've been waiting for a chance to share this with us ever since.
>Glad I could provide an opening.
I just KNEW the folk on alt.squidbike wouod appreciate it.....
>>Folk forget that racers
>>actually DONT corner rapidly - just brake hard and acclereate hard and
>>hte conrers are taken purely to maximise drive down teh next stright -
>>so they are not taken at the maximum speed possible for that corner.
>Done a lot of 125 and 250 racing, have you?
They conrer aste mid corner cos they cant put so much power down on he exit as
a GP500. But on any bike, if you cant ride teh corner exit with teh throtle to
teh stop then you're line's wrong and you have slower laptimes than you could
achieive ifyou did it properly.
And if you can then you have sacrificed mid-corner speed to do so except on
long fast full throttle sweepers.
>>Copyin a racer to corner faster is a bit counterproductive cos laptimes
>>are cut on te straights not corners, so you sacrifice corner speed to
>>gain straight line speed.
>Kind of depends on the bike, wouldn't you say? Racing a TZ250 against
No. Different size bike will corner differently due to hte power delivery
differences but hte rpinciplesthey are trying for are hthe same. - that
laptimes are cut by maximising your exit speeds not you midcorner speeds (the
two things being antagonistic)
>>...and wieght the pegs to alter your line and tune he bike fro
>>over/understeer.
>How does that work?
I'm not actually sure of the physics, but wieghting the inside peg t tends to
push hte bke way from under you and make teh rear wheel more likley to break
free and the front less so - I dont know why.
Converesly weighting hte outide peg has the opposite effect. The bike will
FEEL more planted and less squirrelly, but it will be more likely to lose hte
front.
Dirtbikers know this stuff beftter than tarmac-jockeys. Ask on rec.moto.dirt.
Andy Woodward
>more than the rider's body does right at the turn point. That's the rider
>actively pushing down on the inside peg and pulling the bike down by the
>tank as he turns it. So, you can see the difference and don't need to talk
>with a guy to find out if he's doing it.
No. That's counterweighting - which is done fro far different reasons.
This is very fast (and is actually done by VERY HARD countersteering but
allowing hte bike to slam down before your body, reducing teh intertia ofteh
bike/rider combo and giving a more rapid turn-in) but leads to larger lean
angles on hte bike whic is an obvious problem on the track mid corner. It is a
good way to initiate the turn-in, reducings teh chance of teh front contact
patch breaking loose, but you have to shift your weight very rapidly inboard
ofthe bike aftterwards or you'll be leaving footpegs all over teh road. You
use it at other points in the corner on The Street if teh surface is crap so
that camber thrust biases teh bike more towards rear wheel slides than front
if you misread teh surface and get a surprise. Your freind above with hisbody
more vertical than the bike and his weight on hte inside pegat teh point of
turn in is trying allow a quicker turn-in by miminising teh risk of his font
wheel sliding Basically hanging off the inside of teh bike leads it to
understeer more and counterweighting leads it to oversteer more.
Body steering CAN be done from the hips similar to the above, but
is much more often simply moving your upper body a bit inboard of teh bike and
leetin teh imbalance steer the bike. This is slow but very smoth, minimises
peak loadings on hte front contact patch ad doesnt reduce ground clearance.
This is certainly hte way I do it on hte Vespa - which has such a blindingly
fast steeering repsonse (ten inch wheels and a steep steering angle) that a
motorcycle-style countersteer will trhow it across teh road like a gutshot cat
and teh ttrick to cornering fast is to try consciouisly to work at
eliminating countersteering and put very little thru hte bars at all. Using
hte hips would eat up the already crap grond clearance even more, but doing it
this way increases it a bit
Body steering can also include merely sticking a knee out into the draught. At
high speed this is enough to smoothly arc you into a turn with no other input.
>A static experiment will show the difference. Stand with your feet
>shoulder-witdh apart, facing a wall a couple of feet away. Raise your left
>foot and push against the wall with your right hand. Now, switch feet and
>press against the wall with your right hand. You should notice that your
>body is in better balance between its diagonal opposite corners. Its main
For a diagonal push, yes. For a directly inward push (more analogous to
pushinga bar directly forwards), you have better leverage using hte hand and
foot on hte same side. If you push droectly inward with the opposite hand,
you'll merely tend to spin yourself. This sort of thing is soemthing you pick
up VERY quickly in rock climbing.......So purely for ease of coutersteering
you wwould weight the inside peg. But since peg wieghting has a much more
important effet than merely helping you shove hte bars, teh peg you weight in
reality has moreto do with how you want the frame to behave and almot
nothing to do with helping you contuterster. You have more than enough
upper body strenth to contersteer hard enough to bounce he front wheeel off
teh road without wieghting either peg. ndthre's no point in steering
harderthan this anyway cos tyres dont grip air too well.
>Right. I wasn't being argumentative
I was.......
> just stating a fact.
....but if I can put fats in a way that gets up everybody's nose, that's a
bonus.....
>>To me that's unnatural. If I'm hanging off the inside, most of my
>>weight is going to be on the inside footpeg and not the outside. And
>>if the the bike slides, whether it does so a bit slower or faster has
>>the same end result. If your tires wash out, it will do so quickly
>>enough that it wouldn't matter which side your weighing.
No. You can catch slides and have to all teh time if you're riding near the
edge. If you cant, you shouldnt really be worying about subtleties like
peg wieghting until you can. I've lost count of teh slides I've caught ovethe
years - from a few inches right up to 30 yds on a front wheel slide on a wet
bend while testing theories about tyre loading. Its part of riding - one day
you'l slide - be it from pushinghte envelope or from hitting a hidden deisel
spill on a wet road at night.
>That's just the way it goes when you don't have the flexibility of a 15
>year old girl.
No way am I going to ask how you know about flexible 15 year old girlies.....
>"one." A number of friends have ended up with the idea that Reg teaches
>body steering instead of countersteering. I've never personally heard him
>say that, but it matters to me that a number of people come out with that
>notion.
Anyone teching at that sort of level will surely teach both? He proably
assumes that anyone entering his schoo knows how to countersteer anyway and
teaches htem the things they might not know about already? Ifyou already
couterster - which all bikers actually DO instinctively whether they have a
word for it or not - then there's no point in paying money to be taught
what to call it........
>>I have no idea where you came up with "the assertion that
>>countersteering wasn't always appropriate". Who asserted that? Wasn't
>>me nor anybody else around here that's for sure.
Mememememememe........Or if it wasnt, I will now......
><<btw, all turns should be countersteered. -early apex, late apex, turn at
>an intersection - they're all countersteered.>>
>Then "ayrblake replied,
>
><<Ummmm.....Not if you talk to Reggie Pridmore.....
What is wrong with this? Countersteering is USUALLY best, but not ALWAYS.
Someone who uses it as their ONLY tool is simply a poor rider.
>Then Andy Woodward piped up,
><<No. You countersteer when it ishte bestsolution to he problem. You dont
>when it isnt.
>
>There are several ways to steer a bike. Counterseering only has one
>advantage over the others - that its by far the fastest - this can be a
>disadvantage on bad surfaces.>>
>Maybe these posts didn't show up on your server?
See - told you it was me... Nyah Nyah na NA NAAAAA.
jeronimo...@my-deja.com
n...@spam.here (Demetrios) wrote:
> >Get in cornering position before you start to brake.
>
> You mean your body or the bike? It's better to brake before beginning
> the countersteer.
Body of course. I would not advise leaning over first and then braking
to make the corner. Btw, I can hardly imagine that was a serious
question of yours.
> > Downshift *while* you're braking.
>
> If you enjoy trying to match revs whilst modulating the front brake.
> Some prefer to do the shifting separately.
Are you pulling my leg or what? I thought we were talking about riding
and cornering fast here. What do you suggest, brake first and then get
off the brakes to downshift? Then get into the corner? Are you kidding?
> > Flip the throttle while you hold the clutch to keep the
> >revs up and let the clutch come up after you shifted. Repeat until
> >you're in the right gear.
>
> Or you could just bang down as many gears as you need and blip the
> throttle enough to get it in the proper rev range for the gear and
> speed you're at. Using the engine as a brake is a bad idea in terms of
> control and engine wear.
No offense, but in my humble opinion you are talking bollocks.
> > Feel the front brake handle,
>
> Actually I prefer to pull on it if I'm trying to brake.
>
> > let loose as speed decreases.
Just pull it without feel then (if you like the taste of tarmac).
> I thought that happened as the speed increased... ;)
> >See above. You don't "steer the motorcycle up". The bike just gets up
> >when you smoothly open the gas.
>
> Not necessarily. Some bikes handle neutrally and need an input to
> command them upright. Relying on the gas to stand up doesn't offer as
> much control as manually countersteering them up again. Opening the
> gas to stand it up will lowside my R6 before anything else.
Countersteering to get the bike upright? Without opening the gas?
Opening the gas will lowside your bike?
Kenny Roberts really needs to worry, coz you sound like an expert.
Seriously, either you are just pulling me leg, or you have never ridden
a bike in your life.
Anyway, stay safe & have fun.
Cheers,
Jeronimo :)
Tim Morrow
>
> >Tim Morrow wrote:
>
> >> Hi Adny. (Hi Dan, Hi Allan, Hi everyone else!)
>
>
> >Long time no... type.
>
> Hi.Tim. Good to see you again. Whereyabin?
Racin' and wrenchin', racin' and rebuildin', racin' and wrenchin'.
Etc.
Tim
jeronimo...@my-deja.com
a...@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward) wrote:
OT - I like reading your posts, Andy, but you could make my life much
easier by using a spell checker or re-reading your post before you hit
send. See, I don't want to be cheeky, I just wanted to politely ask you
to consider this. Me not native speaker, you see <g>
Cheers,
Jeronimo :D
Onethumb
"round" it. On bosses and other stressed areas, this adds strength to the the
boss, joint, etc. On an external corner it can be used for asthetics or to
remove sharp edges or corners.
--
Mark Johnson, Fort Worth, Texas
onethumb at swbell dot net
rogue...@my-deja.com
tzr...@NOSPAMyahoo.com (Andy Burnett) wrote:
> rogue...@my-deja.com wrote in <8lnt06$e5k$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>:
>
> >My beef is just with his typing that's all. My 8-year old types
better!
>
> I'm losing track of who's replying to whom. Are you talking to me or
> Woodward?
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Woodward.
My eyes start hurting after reading a few lines!
rogue...@my-deja.com
deni...@idiomDOT.com wrote:
> In alt.motorcycle.sportbike rogue...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > My beef is just with his typing that's all. My 8-year old types
better!
>
is the
> one with the crummy typing. Andy Burnett is the one who received the
word
> of support.
>
> '95 CBR600 F3
> '88 EX250 racebike
> '00 SV650
> '89 EX500 racebike
Yeah I know. My response was to Andy Woodward from Wales/England/UK
one of those anyway. The one with the missing fingers(I'm guessing).
Andy Woodward
>easier by using a spell checker or re-reading your post before you hit
>send. See, I don't want to be cheeky, I just wanted to politely ask you
>to consider this. Me not native speaker, you see <g>
I woldnt be able to make them half as longas boring if I had to spel check
them.........
I have work to do too :(
Andy Woodward
>better!
>>
>> Woodward?
>>
>> ab
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Woodward.
>My eyes start hurting after reading a few lines!
You should see me in real life......
George Smith
Bayron
I now know what to do, if I want to irritate someone on this list!
tipe phuny :)
kevin bayron
Bayron
>
> Body steering CAN be done from the hips similar to the above, but
> is much more often simply moving your upper body a bit inboard of teh bike and
> leetin teh imbalance steer the bike. This is slow but very smoth, minimises
> peak loadings on hte front contact patch ad doesnt reduce ground clearance.
I've noticed, that, (i'm left handed), i wanted to turn better on the
right side..so i concentrated all my body movement to the right. Now
i'm comfortable about shifting my weight to the right side of the bike,
but feel VERY uncomfortable with the left side...weird...I just don't
feel right shifting to the left.
> Body steering can also include merely sticking a knee out into the draught. At
> high speed this is enough to smoothly arc you into a turn with no other input.
Makes sense, especially if you are going fast and the leg acts like a
sail? helping you turn in or slow you down a tad.
kevin bayron
Dan Nitschke
> >Woodward.
>
> >My eyes start hurting after reading a few lines!
>
> You should see me in real life......
I have.
You're a lot like I expected.
--
/* dan: The Anti-Ged, BOF #26, GAGARPHOF (tm) #1, LCDB (tm) #1 */
Dan Nitschke peDA...@idiom.com (.....)@(......).net
-'-'-'-'-'-'-'-'-'-'-'-'-'-'-'-'-'-'-'-'-'-'-'-'-'-'-'
And he really makes a mighty fine jellybean and pickle
sandwich; for what it's worth... - "Weird Al" Yankovic
Andy Burnett
>That's going to be a very boring turn indeed when taken at teh mandatory
> speed limit...
I said "can," not "may."
>Obviosly much faster cos i can getafar faster response from
>countersteering.
Indeed.
>OPn the other hand I could ride it likethis on black
>ice where any input thru the bars dumps you instantly.
I rode on long stretches ice several times last year. Countersteered then too,
albiet gently. No fuss, no muss.
>Coutersteering is by far the fastes wya
>to steer a bike, but the response speed is gained by putting more force
>thru the front contact patch. Fine on a dry track, but not awlways a
>great idea on a wet/gravelly road.
I countersteer in the wet too; it works and never presents a problem. There
are some differences in rain riding techniques but I steer the bike the same
because I've never had a reason not to. I'm aware of the alternatives and can
do them competently; I just don't need to. I have no interest in choosing from
the smorgasbord of possible ways to turn a bike every time I approach a turn; I
just do what works reliably. It must be my simple mind.
>There are lots of guns in teh armoury - the expert uses what's
>appropriate for the conditions. Countersteering is Good(tm) and it
>generally hte most useful stering technique you can learn by far
>(actually you dont have to learn it - if you've ridden a pushbike as a
>kid, you are doing it anyway - learning it just allows you to do it more
>focefuly).
Many people have to learn it, whether they grew up riding bicycles or not.
They can lean their body and expect a bicycle to turn, since they outweight it
by so much and its gyroscopes are insignificant. Get them on a 450 lb.
motorcycle. They lean their body to steer it and wonder why it doesn't do
much.
>Yes. Of course. It is. The physics is hte same - only the bike is a lot
>heavier. Are you trying to suggest it isnt? Maybe you could outline
>where the physics differs?
No, I couldn't outline where the physics differs, because it doesn't. The
equation comes out differently though because of the extra weight, as I'm
positive you know.
ab
Andy Burnett
>No. That's counterweighting - which is done fro far different reasons.
I didn't state myself clearly. What I described was indeed body steering.
I said, "the bike will move more than the rider's body," not "the bike will
lean more than the rider's body." I am assuming the rider is already
hanging off, even a little more than he will when at mid-turn and pulls the
bike down closer to him with his outside knee and by stepping on the inside
peg.
Most of the rest of this post I agree with. Here's a nit:
>Body steering can also include merely sticking a knee out into the
>draught. At high speed this is enough to smoothly arc you into a turn
>with no other input.
Depends on the weight of the bike. 145 mph into turn eight at Willow
Springs on a 250 GP bike -- you bet. Same speed on a liter bike -- the
wind will try to turn *you*, but the bike itself doesn't do much. A great
place to countersteer.
>For a diagonal push, yes. For a directly inward push (more analogous to
>pushinga bar directly forwards), you have better leverage using hte hand
>and foot on hte same side. If you push droectly inward with the opposite
>hand, you'll merely tend to spin yourself.
Your body and mine don't work the same.
>This sort of thing is
>soemthing you pick up VERY quickly in rock climbing.......
Ever heard of a "barn door?" Diagonals are key to staying in balance on
rock & ice. I don't want to go too OT here, so email me offline if you
want to rap about climbing.
>No way am I going to ask how you know about flexible 15 year old
>girlies.....
Just as well.
>Anyone teching at that sort of level will surely teach both?
He didn't when I attended, many years ago. Time marches on though; I don't
know what he does today.
>He proably
>assumes that anyone entering his schoo knows how to countersteer anyway
>and teaches htem the things they might not know about already?
I quite doubt he assumes anything of the kind. His school is segmented
into groups, one of which caters to first-time track riders. He can't
afford to assume anything, and I don't think he does.
>See - told you it was me... Nyah Nyah na NA NAAAAA.
I knew that...
ab
Andy Burnett
>Woodward.
>
>My eyes start hurting after reading a few lines!
iMne oto.
Tnahks.
ab
Demetrios
>Body of course. I would not advise leaning over first and then braking
>to make the corner. Btw, I can hardly imagine that was a serious
>question of yours.
With the varied quality of information available here you have to
cover all bases.
>Are you pulling my leg or what? I thought we were talking about riding
>and cornering fast here. What do you suggest, brake first and then get
>off the brakes to downshift? Then get into the corner? Are you kidding?
Or perhaps shift first then brake then turn? Or perhaps shift before
rolling on? Whatever floats your boat. There are no hard and fast
rules regarding shifting, it's done when the opportunity presents
itself for the particular situation.
>No offense, but in my humble opinion you are talking bollocks.
Ok so keep braking with your engine and shifting one gear at a time.
>> Actually I prefer to pull on it if I'm trying to brake.
>>
>> > let loose as speed decreases.
>
>Just pull it without feel then (if you like the taste of tarmac).
It's called sarcasm.
>Countersteering to get the bike upright? Without opening the gas?
Yes. It's possible you know...
>Opening the gas will lowside your bike?
Try it sometime.
>Kenny Roberts really needs to worry, coz you sound like an expert.
Kenny Roberts has a flair for sliding it in the turns. Still think
it's impossible to lowside using too much gas?
>Seriously, either you are just pulling me leg, or you have never ridden
>a bike in your life.
No actually that'd be someone who thinks shifting should be done
during hard braking, that countersteering is impossible without
throttle input and that one must use the engine as a brake. ;)
Tim Morrow
NZMSC wrote:
>
> Tim Morrow wrote
> > Hi Adny. (Hi Dan, Hi Allan, Hi everyone else!)
>
> Hi Tim. We've missed ya.
Thanks, Allan. The race season ends in mid-October. I should
be back on a semi-regular basis then.
Tim
Larry
Tim Morrow <tomo...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:397F79FC...@erols.com...
> > Hi Adny. (Hi Dan, Hi Allan, Hi everyone else!)
>
> --
> http://www.FlaminDucRacing.com
Hi, Tim! How's the racing going?
Larry
00 929
NZMSC
Onethumb wrote
> An Apex Radius is done with a mill. Instead of a squared off corner, you
> "round" it. On bosses and other stressed areas, this adds strength to the
the
> boss, joint, etc. On an external corner it can be used for asthetics or
to
> remove sharp edges or corners.
Thank you for that information, Mark. In future we won't ride anywhere
without our mill. Now, where did I put those large saddlebags...
--
Allan Kirk
New Zealand Motorcycle Safety Consultants
(Saving motorcyclists' lives since 1971)
Website: http://www.megarider.com
NZMSC
> Hi Adny. (Hi Dan, Hi Allan, Hi everyone else!)
Hi Tim. We've missed ya.
--
NZMSC
> OT - I like reading your posts, Andy, but you could make my life much
> easier by using a spell checker or re-reading your post before you hit
> send. See, I don't want to be cheeky, I just wanted to politely ask you
> to consider this. Me not native speaker, you see <g>
How does it feel to be about the 700th person to tell Adny that....?
Andy Woodward
>>Body steering can also include merely sticking a knee out into the
>>draught. At high speed this is enough to smoothly arc you into a turn
>>with no other input.
>Depends on the weight of the bike. 145 mph into turn eight at Willow
>Springs on a 250 GP bike -- you bet. Same speed on a liter bike -- the
>wind will try to turn *you*, but the bike itself doesn't do much. A great
>place to countersteer.
You have to remember that I have no remaining interest in racing, so I tend
to rabbit on about techniques more useful on hte road, unless someracer
shows he clearly doesnt understand his job - a common thing on any thread
crosposted to alt.squidbike.......
I used to steer this way on hte GS500 at legal speeds in the wet. I also used
it to allow me to countersteer less forcefullly on gravelly little backroads
at teh last Aber meet and I am told some rather fast folk were
surprised.....If you mix and match techniques (using various body steering
subtleties to une how you countersteer, then you can do, er, rather well.....
>>This sort of thing is
>>soemthing you pick up VERY quickly in rock climbing.......
>Ever heard of a "barn door?" Diagonals are key to staying in balance on
>rock & ice. I don't want to go too OT here, so email me offline if you
>want to rap about climbing.
I was regularly new-routing on British rock (often solo) from the early 70s
thru to teh late 80s when Britain still led teh world in this. I know all
about this stuff - trust me on this........
You have to make triangles - acute angled triangles. As soon as a force is
outside your base, then you barndoor.