Epic battle at WSB Assen leg 2 [SP]
Bram
If you have not caught the coverage on WSB at Assen, you're missing
out.
The revised Assen circuit met with skeptical response, but the shorter
track can still deliver great races as was proven yesterday.
After claiming leg 1 with confidence and solid performance, James
Toseland was prominent in leg 2 as well. Together with Troy Bayliss
he was duking it out on the last few laps, as Max Biaggi had to drop
off and finish third.
The maneuvers in the last lap were so spectacular, it almost looked
choreographed. In fact, the moves were identical in all three last
laps,
where Toseland was trying to overtake Bayliss. In all three laps he
was successful initially, but swift counter moves by Bayliss meant
that
James was trailing on the finish line again.
However, on the last lap, James *did* make it stick. Exiting Geert
Timmer
with a lead, storming to the finish. But Bayliss had slightly better
traction. Toseland, on the dirt, was threatened to be overtaken at the
finishline, so he pushed it just a little more..... Toseland's front
wheel
lifted a few inches above ground... Bayliss kept his front wheel down,
and on the finish line.... a 9 millisecond win by Bayliss.
Wow... I don't think racing can get much better than this. Troy, the
reigning champion no less, was moved to tears. James really gutted.
However, James does look set to take Troy's crown at the end of the
season with his rock solid performance so far.
Bram
Julian Bond
>Whoa... this is going to be a classic.
>If you have not caught the coverage on WSB at Assen, you're missing
>out.
Yup. Cracking races. Right up there with Fogarty vs Kocinski.
Toseland came *so* close to the perfect weekend. Not just his first
double but a clean sweep by Ten Kate in front of the big boss man from
Hanspree.
But. That first race was seriously affected by tyres. Again.
--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat
*** Just Say No To DRM ***
Bram
> Toseland came *so* close to the perfect weekend. Not just his first
> double but a clean sweep by Ten Kate in front of the big boss man from
> Hanspree.
Yeah... that Kenan Sofluogu is amazing.
Some are whispering rumors of Ten Kate going MotoGP next year.
It would be great if Ten Kate could bring Sofluogu and Toseland
to the major league in motorsport.
> But. That first race was seriously affected by tyres. Again.
They are all on pirelli's this year, so tyres should be less decisive?
Bram
Paul B
> On Apr 30, 10:48 am, Julian Bond <julian_b...@voidstar.com> wrote:
>
> Yeah... that Kenan Sofluogu is amazing.
> Some are whispering rumors of Ten Kate going MotoGP next year.
> It would be great if Ten Kate could bring Sofluogu and Toseland
> to the major league in motorsport.
>
With the current spec of MGP bikes I do wonder if riders would be
better progressing directly from Supersport to MGP rather than via WSB
(to get more experience). The WSB bikes rely less on corner speed but
more on grunt where as the Supersport are the opposite as are the
800cc MGP bikes relying on higher corner speed and keeping the
momentum going, as such Supersport riders already possess that ability
naturally and haven't been tainted by the different characteristics
and riding style of superbikes.
Paul
Julian Bond
>> But. That first race was seriously affected by tyres. Again.
>They are all on pirelli's this year, so tyres should be less decisive?
Somebody commented during the race that the trick now is to adjust the
bike to the tyres. In the old days it was often the other way round.
Everybody was running the hardest tyre Pirelli had although Toseland and
some others had a medium front. In the first race, the rear held up for
some but not for others. Not all of that was riding style, and setup. At
least some of it looks like quality control.
Chris Paine
> Whoa... this is going to be a classic.
> If you have not caught the coverage on WSB at Assen, you're missing
> out.
My VCR screwed up, so I missed it. So despite bad experiences with
video coverage on the MotoGP site, I decided to fork out some cash on
the online coverage at the official superbike web site. Another
mistake. On Monday the only coverage of the Assen races they had was
brief highlights of the race, and the text next to the link for
highlights of race 2 gave away the result of race 1. The full race
videos have now appeared on the site, but I only have until May 3rd to
watch them. On the up side the video quality was better than the
MotoGP site, and you can watch the videos more than once, whereas on
the MotoGP site you only have one chance, which is a bit of a bummer
if you then encounter network problems.
Cheers,
--
Chris Paine <c...@ist.co.uk>
"I'm happy, I'm happy, I'm happy ...
and I'll punch the man who says I'm not."
gomez
The full race
>videos have now appeared on the site, but I only have until May 3rd to
>watch them
Email me if you would like a copy of the Eurosport coverage on DVD.
--
gomez
Honda TransAlp,KTM 640LC Enduro (For Sale)
(not is not to reply)
"The best tool for the job is the hammer thats nearest to hand"
Chris Paine
> >videos have now appeared on the site, but I only have until May 3rd to
> >watch them
>
> Email me if you would like a copy of the Eurosport coverage on DVD.
Thanks for the offer. I will try and watch the online stuff tonight,
but if I fail I'll drop you a line. (you see, people can be nice on
this Newsgroup :-).
Chris Paine
The first half of the supersport race was a belter as well.
gomez
following oil-slick:
>I did manage to watch the superbike races last night, well worth it.
>The first half of the supersport race was a belter as well.
>
I burnt the DVD anyway as it is a keeper.
Mark N
> With the current spec of MGP bikes I do wonder if riders would be
> better progressing directly from Supersport to MGP rather than via WSB
> (to get more experience). The WSB bikes rely less on corner speed but
> more on grunt where as the Supersport are the opposite as are the
> 800cc MGP bikes relying on higher corner speed and keeping the
> momentum going, as such Supersport riders already possess that ability
> naturally and haven't been tainted by the different characteristics
> and riding style of superbikes.
Doesn't really make sense to me. The 800s are more dependent on corner
speed than the 990s, it seems, although it's not entirely clear why. But
that's only relative to each other, and the relationship to other
classes of machines may not be that different. What kind of peak
horsepower do the 800s make, surely over 200? That puts them in SB range
and way north of SS machines. 800s weight about the same as 990s, and
SBs are heavier, but are SS machines lighter than SBs, or is it the
other way around?
The issue seems to me is that in MotoGP the bikes are largely designed
for and developed by ex-125/250 riders, so probably have had a tendency
to go in a certain direction. The size of most of those riders is
probably having an impact on the machines as well, certainly is at
Honda. So the situation remains as it's been, if you want to get to
MotoGP, race on the same tracks they're on and in front of the people
who do the hiring, also shrink yourself as much as possible (almost a
requirement of winning in 250), and remember to pack one of the right
passports...
Mark N
> Bram
>> If you have not caught the coverage on WSB at Assen, you're missing
>> out.
> Yup. Cracking races. Right up there with Fogarty vs Kocinski.
>
> Toseland came *so* close to the perfect weekend. Not just his first
> double but a clean sweep by Ten Kate in front of the big boss man from
> Hanspree.
>
> But. That first race was seriously affected by tyres. Again.
Face it, every race in BISB is effected by tires, that was the
Plegmini's intent.
And why is no one talking about Toseland's colossal error in pulling up
the front to wheelie to victory, only to have that cost him the win?
What's with this "Toseland, on the dirt, was threatened to be overtaken
at the finishline, so he pushed it just a little more..... Toseland's
front wheel lifted a few inches above ground... Bayliss kept his front
wheel down, and on the finish line..."? I hate to spoil this little
limey lovefest here, but it certainly seems possible that James fucked
up at least as much as Edwards did in almost the same spot last year,
and probably more - at least Colin was trying to win.
But of course it wouldn't be seen that way, as James is a B--- and Colin
is an A------...
Champ
<menu...@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote:
>And why is no one talking about Toseland's colossal error in pulling up
>the front to wheelie to victory, only to have that cost him the win?
>What's with this "Toseland, on the dirt, was threatened to be overtaken
>at the finishline, so he pushed it just a little more..... Toseland's
>front wheel lifted a few inches above ground... Bayliss kept his front
>wheel down, and on the finish line..."? I hate to spoil this little
>limey lovefest here, but it certainly seems possible that James fucked
>up at least as much as Edwards did in almost the same spot last year,
>and probably more - at least Colin was trying to win.
I watched that last corner again and again. What happened I think is
this:
Toseland got past, and expecting a desperate attack from Bayliss,
defended the line into the lsat chicane as much as he dared - ultra
late on the brakes, and very tight. This utterly destroyed his speed
on the way out.
Bayliss chose a different tack. Instead of challenging on the way in,
he hung back and ran the line that gave the fastest exit speed. Look
at the turn in point - Bayliss is 3~4 bike lengths behind, and on a
different line completely.
This is how he won - Bayliss' exit from the corner was way better than
Toselands.
If you really think Toseland lost the race trying to pull a wheelie,
you understand lot less about bike racing than I gave you credit for.
>But of course it wouldn't be seen that way, as James is a B--- and Colin
>is an A------...
Have you always had this problem, or has it developed over the years?
--
Champ
Bram
> And why is no one talking about Toseland's colossal error in pulling up
> the front to wheelie to victory, only to have that cost him the win?
Well... originally I thought it was unintentional, but I must admit...
I saw the footage again, this time on MotorsTV. Unlike Eurosport,
a MotorsTV commentator called it a 'victory wheelie that cost him'.
I now think you may be right.
He was not pushing hard, but celebrating?
That would explain his utter disappointment.
Did JT comment on his loss yet in the press?
Would he admit to showboating?
> But of course it wouldn't be seen that way, as James is a B--- and Colin
> is an A------...
There is respect for rider skills in this newsgroup, regardless which
country they are from. But you've been told this a 1000 times in
this newsgroup, so I don't know why I bother.
Bram
Julian Bond
>Did JT comment on his loss yet in the press?
>Would he admit to showboating?
I don't believe this. If he was trying to pull a wheelie over the line
he wouldn't have been crouched down. And it would have been a much
better wheelie. The front tyre barely came off the ground. Meanwhile
Bayliss was trying to pull a tighter exit line with the rear wheel
squirming and shaking.
No. I think it was a repeat of Fogarty beating Kocinski. Bayliss got
fractionally better drive and line and it was just enough.
And no, it was nowhere near the kind of mistake Edwards made. Or Chili.
What I found really scary was the pass Toseland put on Bayliss three
times at the tail end of the lap. That's the Vermeulen-Xaus line. Way
fast and almost over the curb.
wama...@email.com
Mark N
> Mark N wrote:
>> And why is no one talking about Toseland's colossal error in pulling up
>> the front to wheelie to victory, only to have that cost him the win?
>> What's with this "Toseland, on the dirt, was threatened to be overtaken
>> at the finishline, so he pushed it just a little more..... Toseland's
>> front wheel lifted a few inches above ground... Bayliss kept his front
>> wheel down, and on the finish line..."? I hate to spoil this little
>> limey lovefest here, but it certainly seems possible that James fucked
>> up at least as much as Edwards did in almost the same spot last year,
>> and probably more - at least Colin was trying to win.
> I watched that last corner again and again. What happened I think is
> this:
>
> Toseland got past, and expecting a desperate attack from Bayliss,
> defended the line into the lsat chicane as much as he dared - ultra
> late on the brakes, and very tight.
Right, it's what you have to do there, just like Edwards had done
against Hayden.
This utterly destroyed his speed
> on the way out.
There I'm not so certain. Yes, his approach probably cost him something
on the exit, but "utterly destroyed"? Bayliss ran through more
conventionally but wasn't much faster out.
> Bayliss chose a different tack. Instead of challenging on the way in,
> he hung back and ran the line that gave the fastest exit speed. Look
> at the turn in point - Bayliss is 3~4 bike lengths behind, and on a
> different line completely.
> This is how he won - Bayliss' exit from the corner was way better than
> Toselands.
It really appears that where Toseland lost it was on the apex of the
right flick onto the front straight; he'd gone through the left
apparently fine, but appears to have still been braking/turning past the
apex, then is back on the gas before flicking it back over. Even before
he dances along the inside curb he wheelies, and as much or more than he
did later. Why? Not clear to me, but assumedly because he's on the gas
hard, not having carried so much speed. Onto the straight he's still in
front and probably had no reason to think Bayliss could beat him, and
the wheel comes up again.
> If you really think Toseland lost the race trying to pull a wheelie,
> you understand lot less about bike racing than I gave you credit for.
I'm not convinced either way, but I don't see anything that completely
eliminates the possibility. What this reminds me of is the Sachsenring,
2003, when Gibernau got Rossi at the line, and it appeared Rossi was
celebrating prematurely. Rossi had chased Ster that whole last lap, git
by at the bottom of the hill, then protected the inside of the last two
corners, but Sete had the better line to the finish and nipped by Rossi
as Vale's wheel was in the air.
Anyway, on the broadcast here, the color gut was quite certain that
James had blown it by celebrating early. They said he's a two-time
endurance world champion, but I guess he doesn't know anything about
racing as well...
>> But of course it wouldn't be seen that way, as James is a B--- and Colin
>> is an A------...
> Have you always had this problem, or has it developed over the years?
Not MY problem, Champ. I just don't see how anyone could be so certain
of what was at play here, and yet none of the Brits discussing this here
had even mentioned the possibility before I did, and the seems to be a
lot of certainty about it since. You're clearly quite certain, and
Julian says, "If he was trying to pull a wheelie over the line he
wouldn't have been crouched down. And it would have been a much better
wheelie. The front tyre barely came off the ground." Now I don't find
that to be a very compelling argument, it's not like he had a 10-second
lead and was setting up a monster wheelie. I've seen guys wheelie across
the line in a close fight but where they know they had it won, although
they're not huge wheelies, just a little exhiliration. And you can see
James' elbows flair out and up just has the wheel comes up, which looks
like he was pulling it up. I don't see him doing that if he's really
still racing to the line. Had both commentators convinced.
And then Bond goes on to say, "And no, it was nowhere near the kind of
mistake Edwards made." That I don't agree with at all. If James wasn't
celebrating early, then he lost a race he should have won, having led
into that final sequence of bends and not seriously challenged by
Bayliss - and still lost. If he was celebrating, then it's a massive
boner, particularly when you consider the championship situation.
Edwards crashed, but considering the championship situation, it was win
or crash for him anyway, he had little to lose, finishing 2nd to Hayden
did nothing for Rossi - and crashing actually gave Rossi a free point.
Edwards went in shallow and hot, went over the inside of the left and
went down, Toseland went in shallow and hot, got through the left but
was deep into the right and way up on that curb, and at that point he
either really fucked up or had already fucked himself.
Anyway, it's the nature of that last chicane at Assen, which always
results in fireworks at the end of a close race. It's exciting, but then
how many guys have ended up losers who would have been winners at almost
any other track?
sturd
> This is how he won - Bayliss' exit from the corner was way better than
> Toselands.
>
> If you really think Toseland lost the race trying to pull a wheelie,
> you understand lot less about bike racing than I gave you credit for.
Watch Toseland's elbows. You can see him pull on the bars.
Trying to wheelie.
Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.
Julian Bond
>Watch Toseland's elbows. You can see him pull on the bars.
>Trying to wheelie.
Or did you see him trying to get his weight forwards to stop the wheelie
which means his elbows go out sideways? Watch the rear view and he's
crouched right down over the tank.
Toseland said: "What a finish. It was amazing but it's so gut wrenching
not to win after all that effort. I put so much into it, so to lose it
at the final corner made me feel physically sick. It was my mistake not
to drive straight for the flag. I lost the front twice on the way in and
had to let go of the brake and that meant I was really deep into the
turn and ran wide as I changed direction"
No. I just don't buy this "Toseland lost the race by trying to do a
victory wheelie" crap.
Julian Bond
>sturd <mikestur...@hotmail.com> Fri, 4 May 2007 08:22:54
>>Watch Toseland's elbows. You can see him pull on the bars.
>>Trying to wheelie.
>
>Or did you see him trying to get his weight forwards to stop the
>wheelie which means his elbows go out sideways? Watch the rear view and
>he's crouched right down over the tank.
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/image/2007/wsbk/assen/sitonit/2.htm
Is that someone pulling a victory wheelie, or someone trying to keep the
front wheel down?
sturd
>the rear view and he's
> crouched right down over the tank.
yeabut. Watch the video from that view and it's pretty obvious
a jerk on the bars.
and points to:
>http://www.superbikeplanet.com/image/2007/wsbk/assen/sitonit/2.htm
Mid jerk. Not sure it really indicates what happened.
Hey, I don't know for sure, Jimmy sure isn't fessing up to anything
other than "got beat it sucks". But looked like a jerk on the bars to
me.
Champ
<menu...@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote:
>> If you really think Toseland lost the race trying to pull a wheelie,
>> you understand lot less about bike racing than I gave you credit for.
>
>I'm not convinced either way, but I don't see anything that completely
>eliminates the possibility. What this reminds me of is the Sachsenring,
>2003, when Gibernau got Rossi at the line, and it appeared Rossi was
>celebrating prematurely. Rossi had chased Ster that whole last lap, git
>by at the bottom of the hill, then protected the inside of the last two
>corners, but Sete had the better line to the finish and nipped by Rossi
>as Vale's wheel was in the air.
There's a reason for this. If you go into a corner late on the
brakes, you're ultimate corner speed is down, and you have to wait
longer to get on the gas. So, when you finally do, you tend to be
more upright, and go from closed to open throttle quicker, from lower
revs. This is more likely to make the bike wheelie than when you run
the corner at the 'right' speed, rolling the throttle on more slowly
on the exit.
I recall the Sachsenring race very clearly, and at no point did it
ever occur to me that Rossi would make a rookie mistake like
celebrating too early. He defened the line to much, killed his exit
speed, and Sete, for once, out-foxed him.
>Anyway, on the broadcast here, the color gut was quite certain that
>James had blown it by celebrating early. They said he's a two-time
>endurance world champion, but I guess he doesn't know anything about
>racing as well...
What's his name? Being able to race a bike well only has a tangential
relationship to being able to commetate on other people doing it.
--
Champ
Mark N
> Mark N wrote:
>> eliminates the possibility. What this reminds me of is the Sachsenring,
>> 2003, when Gibernau got Rossi at the line, and it appeared Rossi was
>> celebrating prematurely. Rossi had chased Ster that whole last lap, git
>> by at the bottom of the hill, then protected the inside of the last two
>> corners, but Sete had the better line to the finish and nipped by Rossi
>> as Vale's wheel was in the air.
> There's a reason for this. If you go into a corner late on the
> brakes, you're ultimate corner speed is down, and you have to wait
> longer to get on the gas. So, when you finally do, you tend to be
> more upright, and go from closed to open throttle quicker, from lower
> revs. This is more likely to make the bike wheelie than when you run
> the corner at the 'right' speed, rolling the throttle on more slowly
> on the exit.
Yes, I'm not an idiot, I know that it's possible that the wheelie was
caused by James accelerating hard at that point, given his line through
the chicane. What I'm saying is that it's not definitive, it's not like
that's the only possible reason his wheel came off the tarmac. And it
does look like he pulled it up on purpose.
> I recall the Sachsenring race very clearly, and at no point did it
> ever occur to me that Rossi would make a rookie mistake like
> celebrating too early. He defended the line to much, killed his exit
> speed, and Sete, for once, out-foxed him.
Well, it was Rossi, after all, so you wouldn't think that, would you?
But others did, and it was a point of discussion at the time. If Sete
truly out-foxed him, it's quite possible that Rossi thought he had it in
the bag, right? Time for a little "in your face" victory celebration?
>> Anyway, on the broadcast here, the color gut was quite certain that
>> James had blown it by celebrating early. They said he's a two-time
>> endurance world champion, but I guess he doesn't know anything about
>> racing as well...
> What's his name? Being able to race a bike well only has a tangential
> relationship to being able to commetate on other people doing it.
We're not talking about general racing commentary here, we're talking
about making a call on something that happened right before his eyes,
and he made the call quite definitively against James. And this is a
fellow Brit who was quite obviously cheerleading for Toseland only
seconds earlier, when it looked like he was going to win.
For someone who has criticized me heavily for my opinions, you should
take a closer look at your own biases. There's discussion all over the
web about this, and people have come down all over the spectrum on it.
But here are you and Bond, the self-appointed propriety police, way out
on the extreme, defending your boy, no way he made that mistake. Excuse
me for enjoying the moment...
Champ
<menu...@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote:
>Champ wrote:
>> Mark N wrote:
>>> I'm not convinced either way, but I don't see anything that completely
>>> eliminates the possibility. What this reminds me of is the Sachsenring,
>>> 2003, when Gibernau got Rossi at the line, and it appeared Rossi was
>>> celebrating prematurely. Rossi had chased Ster that whole last lap, git
>>> by at the bottom of the hill, then protected the inside of the last two
>>> corners, but Sete had the better line to the finish and nipped by Rossi
>>> as Vale's wheel was in the air.
>
>> There's a reason for this. If you go into a corner late on the
>> brakes, you're ultimate corner speed is down, and you have to wait
>> longer to get on the gas. So, when you finally do, you tend to be
>> more upright, and go from closed to open throttle quicker, from lower
>> revs. This is more likely to make the bike wheelie than when you run
>> the corner at the 'right' speed, rolling the throttle on more slowly
>> on the exit.
>
>Yes, I'm not an idiot
Thanks for clearing that up.
>I know that it's possible that the wheelie was
>caused by James accelerating hard at that point, given his line through
>the chicane. What I'm saying is that it's not definitive, it's not like
>that's the only possible reason his wheel came off the tarmac. And it
>does look like he pulled it up on purpose.
It doesn't look like that, at all, to me. And having a reasonable
explanation as to why the wheel might come up when racing for the win,
means I don't feel the need to go looking for some other, less likely
reason.
>> I recall the Sachsenring race very clearly, and at no point did it
>> ever occur to me that Rossi would make a rookie mistake like
>> celebrating too early. He defended the line to much, killed his exit
>> speed, and Sete, for once, out-foxed him.
>
>Well, it was Rossi, after all, so you wouldn't think that, would you?
What, I wouldn't think that Rossi would get out-foxed? You can't have
it both ways. I've noted several times that Rossi makes mistakes.
It's one of the reasons he's so popular.
>>> Anyway, on the broadcast here, the color gut was quite certain that
>>> James had blown it by celebrating early. They said he's a two-time
>>> endurance world champion, but I guess he doesn't know anything about
>>> racing as well...
>
>> What's his name? Being able to race a bike well only has a tangential
>> relationship to being able to commetate on other people doing it.
>
>We're not talking about general racing commentary here, we're talking
>about making a call on something that happened right before his eyes,
>and he made the call quite definitively against James. And this is a
>fellow Brit who was quite obviously cheerleading for Toseland only
>seconds earlier, when it looked like he was going to win.
A fellow brit. Ooh, I'm on the edge of my seat. Really, what is his
name. It's always possible that this "fellow brit" got beaten soundly
by Toseland in the past, and harbours a grudge.
>For someone who has criticized me heavily for my opinions, you should
>take a closer look at your own biases. There's discussion all over the
>web about this, and people have come down all over the spectrum on it.
I don't care what's all over the web - we both know that 90% of what's
on the web is bollocks. And I'm not particularly a fan of Toseland,
either, tho I do think he's doing a good job this season. In fact,
you'll be hard pressed to find posts from me supporting any British
riders - it's extremely rarely that I'm swayed by patriotism, and
usually take a contrary pov.
>But here are you and Bond, the self-appointed propriety police, way out
>on the extreme, defending your boy, no way he made that mistake. Excuse
>me for enjoying the moment...
"My boy"? What on earth makes you call him that? We're not all
blinded by nationality like you, you know. And Toseland quite
obviously *did* make a mistake - he got beat, after leading into the
final hairpin. But I see nothing on the video, or in Toseland's
history (he is a rather serious young man), to suggest he'd have tried
to pull a wheelie there, knowing Bayliss was right behind him. And,
as Julian pointed out, it was a crap wheelie! I'm sure he can do
better than that if he wants.
--
Champ
Chris Paine
> >>> Anyway, on the broadcast here, the color gut was quite certain that
> >>> James had blown it by celebrating early. They said he's a two-time
> >>> endurance world champion, but I guess he doesn't know anything about
> >>> racing as well...
>
> >> What's his name? Being able to race a bike well only has a tangential
> >> relationship to being able to commetate on other people doing it.
>
> >We're not talking about general racing commentary here, we're talking
> >about making a call on something that happened right before his eyes,
> >and he made the call quite definitively against James. And this is a
> >fellow Brit who was quite obviously cheerleading for Toseland only
> >seconds earlier, when it looked like he was going to win.
>
> A fellow brit. Ooh, I'm on the edge of my seat. Really, what is his
> name. It's always possible that this "fellow brit" got beaten soundly
> by Toseland in the past, and harbours a grudge.
Well assuming that it is the same commentary that they have on the
video on the WSB web site (and let's face it, how many two times
endurance champions doing commentary can there be ?), the "color guy"
is Warwick Nowland, who I believe is an Australian. And we all know
how the Australians love to cheer on the Brits.
Champ
>> >>> Anyway, on the broadcast here, the color gut was quite certain that
>> >>> James had blown it by celebrating early. They said he's a two-time
>> >>> endurance world champion, but I guess he doesn't know anything about
>> >>> racing as well...
>>
>> >> What's his name? Being able to race a bike well only has a tangential
>> >> relationship to being able to commetate on other people doing it.
>>
>> >We're not talking about general racing commentary here, we're talking
>> >about making a call on something that happened right before his eyes,
>> >and he made the call quite definitively against James. And this is a
>> >fellow Brit who was quite obviously cheerleading for Toseland only
>> >seconds earlier, when it looked like he was going to win.
>>
>> A fellow brit. Ooh, I'm on the edge of my seat. Really, what is his
>> name. It's always possible that this "fellow brit" got beaten soundly
>> by Toseland in the past, and harbours a grudge.
>
>Well assuming that it is the same commentary that they have on the
>video on the WSB web site (and let's face it, how many two times
>endurance champions doing commentary can there be ?), the "color guy"
>is Warwick Nowland, who I believe is an Australian. And we all know
>how the Australians love to cheer on the Brits.
OK, I know (of) Warwick [1]. A very good rider, but, it has to be
said, being a World Endurance winner is a good league below being a
WSB winner. But anyway, it wouldn't matter if it was Wayne Rainey
commentating, all the commentator is doing is calling what he sees in
the split second he sees it. I've lost count of the times I've
disagreed with motor sport commentators, so I don't see why I should
take this as the word of god.
[1] in fact, a very good friend of mine spannered for Phase One
Endurance when Warwick rode for them.
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk
Mark N
> Chris Paine wrote:
>>>>> What's his name? Being able to race a bike well only has a tangential
>>>>> relationship to being able to commetate on other people doing it.
>>> A fellow brit. Ooh, I'm on the edge of my seat. Really, what is his
>>> name. It's always possible that this "fellow brit" got beaten soundly
>>> by Toseland in the past, and harbours a grudge.
>> Well assuming that it is the same commentary that they have on the
>> video on the WSB web site (and let's face it, how many two times
>> endurance champions doing commentary can there be ?), the "color guy"
>> is Warwick Nowland, who I believe is an Australian. And we all know
>> how the Australians love to cheer on the Brits.
> OK, I know (of) Warwick [1]. A very good rider, but, it has to be
> said, being a World Endurance winner is a good league below being a
> WSB winner. But anyway, it wouldn't matter if it was Wayne Rainey
> commentating, all the commentator is doing is calling what he sees in
> the split second he sees it. I've lost count of the times I've
> disagreed with motor sport commentators, so I don't see why I should
> take this as the word of god.
Okay, now I'm getting confused. Did the guy get this wrong because he's
a former competitor who holds a grudge against Toseland? Or is it
because he's an Aussie who has a grudge against all Brits? Or did he
just get in wrong in that "split second"? In fact he posed the question
after seeing the live action, but only came to his final conclusion
after seeing slow-mo replays from a couple angles, so hardly a "split
second".
But keep working it, guys. Eventually you may convince someone outside
of the unbiased UK...
Champ
<menu...@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote:
>> OK, I know (of) Warwick [1]. A very good rider, but, it has to be
>> said, being a World Endurance winner is a good league below being a
>> WSB winner. But anyway, it wouldn't matter if it was Wayne Rainey
>> commentating, all the commentator is doing is calling what he sees in
>> the split second he sees it. I've lost count of the times I've
>> disagreed with motor sport commentators, so I don't see why I should
>> take this as the word of god.
>
>Okay, now I'm getting confused. Did the guy get this wrong because he's
>a former competitor who holds a grudge against Toseland? Or is it
>because he's an Aussie who has a grudge against all Brits? Or did he
>just get in wrong in that "split second"?
I find the first two unlikely. I just don't agree with him. Is that
allowed?
>But keep working it, guys. Eventually you may convince someone outside
>of the unbiased UK...
OK, Mark, here's a straight question: do you believe that I am saying
that "Toseland wasn't trying to pull a wheelie", because he (Toseland)
and I are both born in the same country?
Mark N
> Mark N wrote:
> >a former competitor who holds a grudge against Toseland? Or is it
> >because he's an Aussie who has a grudge against all Brits? Or did he
> >just get in wrong in that "split second"?
> I find the first two unlikely. I just don't agree with him. Is that
> allowed?
Sure, of course, and I think we know that already. But you're the one
who suggested the first possibility...
> >But keep working it, guys. Eventually you may convince someone outside
> >of the unbiased UK...
> OK, Mark, here's a straight question: do you believe that I am saying
> that "Toseland wasn't trying to pull a wheelie", because he (Toseland)
> and I are both born in the same country?
That you don't think he pulled a wheelie unintentionally is
unremarkable. But that you are so determinedly certain of that is, and
it causes one to wonder why. Your first response back to me on this
included, "If you really think Toseland lost the race trying to pull a
wheelie,
you understand lot less about bike racing than I gave you credit
for", which seems pretty defensive/offensive to me. And given that
Bond is equally as certain and equally as defensive, and that the
other Brits contributing to this thread failed to mention the
situation at all, increases my curiousity. Again, you're very quick to
throw around nationalism accusations at me pretty much anytime I
attempt to counter the onslaught of unreasonable abuse habitually
heaped on Hayden, Roberts, Edwards, Mladin, Spies and anyone else
associated with American racing in this NG, but you seem to get your
back up very quickly when one returns that favor. And I didn't even
say I thought he screwed up there, I said I wasn't sure either way.
Do I think your absolutist position on this has something to do with
Toseland being British, being a guy you've probably followed for many
years, being a guy you're quite familiar with? Yes, I do, and the same
goes for Bond. I don't think you'd be taking this hard of a position
if you didn't have a dog in the fight, as Tom might put it.
Interesting to see...
Also interesting was an enlightening statement you made earlier -
"I've noted several times that Rossi makes mistakes.
It's one of the reasons he's so popular." Think of that, Rossi popular
BECAUSE he makes mistakes - never considered that possibility...
Champ
>Do I think your absolutist position on this has something to do with
>Toseland being British, being a guy you've probably followed for many
>years, being a guy you're quite familiar with? Yes, I do, and the same
>goes for Bond. I don't think you'd be taking this hard of a position
>if you didn't have a dog in the fight, as Tom might put it.
>Interesting to see...
You're completely wrong. Not only have I not followed Toseland for
many years (I was completely unaware of him before he went to WSB, and
paid little attention to him when he first got there), I don't recall
*ever* "following" a British rider. Simply put, in my whole adult
life there's only been one successful British rider (Fogarty) and I
can't stand him. And as I said earlier, I've never supported anyone
because of their nationality - the only UK rider I've ever had a soft
spot for was Chris Walker, and that's cos he had a long association
with Kawasaki.
When England are in a football tournament, I always hope they're
knocked out as soon as possible (so that the saturation coverage here
ends).
So, in short, your "dog in the fight" comment is a million miles out.
The person I'd most like to win WSB this year is Max Biaggi, not
Toseland.
>Also interesting was an enlightening statement you made earlier -
>"I've noted several times that Rossi makes mistakes.
>It's one of the reasons he's so popular." Think of that, Rossi popular
>BECAUSE he makes mistakes - never considered that possibility...
Being fallible and human - sure it can make someone popular. It's why
Doohan was never the fans choice, and Schwantz was.
gomez
the following oil-slick:
> and that the
>other Brits contributing to this thread failed to mention the
>situation at all
Ok. I agree with Champ. I watch it several times at full speed and
slo-mo and I see exactly what JT described: In deep to defend the
first part of the chicane and cocked up his exit from the second part.
I wonder if he could have done more to stop the front popping up but
it looked like he was all caught up in wrestling the thing back into
shape to worry about that.