Chain Vs Shaft drive: Pros and Cons...
Sandeep Singh
Hello all,
Looking for a little advice from the knowledgeable people
surfing this part of the Internet:
I come from India and the only motorcycles that I grew up
with were all chain drives; in fact the first time I actually saw
a mobike with shaft drive was last year. I am in the market for a
used bike and was wondering what the pros and cons are. All I can
tell is that the shaft drive takes out chain maintenance but what
about long term maintenance?
Thanks in advance for your time...
Sandeep
--
**************************************************************
Sandeep Singh 272-8407/273-0101/255-7904
--------------------------------------------------------------
Mein kisi se khushiyan mangoon, yeh mujhe manzoor nahi;
Peter Hobday
Sandeep Singh (ss...@crux1.cit.cornell.edu) writes:
> used bike and was wondering what the pros and cons are. All I can
> tell is that the shaft drive takes out chain maintenance but what
> about long term maintenance?
Hi Sandeep, this won't help you too much but I have to brag when the rare
occasion presents itself. I'm the proud owner of a 1982 RH920 Yamaha
V-twin. It features a fully-enclosed rear chain which runs in a litre of
lithium grease (solid except when up to operating temp.). Grab one if you
can find one - simple, good torque, super handler, crap starter.
All the best features of chain-drive (i.e. no torque reaction) with the
non-maintenance of a shaft.
Peter
Lockheed WsmrSmts
Sandeep Singh (ss...@crux1.cit.cornell.edu) wrote:
: Hello all,
: Looking for a little advice from the knowledgeable people
You've found it!
: I come from India and the only motorcycles that I grew up
: with were all chain drives; in fact the first time I actually saw
: a mobike with shaft drive was last year. I am in the market for a
: used bike and was wondering what the pros and cons are. All I can
: tell is that the shaft drive takes out chain maintenance but what
: about long term maintenance?
There are no pros to chain drive, only cons. Shaft is the only
way to go for a no adjustment, low maintenance, long service life
drive system.
______________________________________________
The Q DoD #42508
95 Virago 750 95 Virago 535
etc...
Bruce Clarke
Lockheed WsmrSmts (Les...@cris.com) wrote:
: There are no pros to chain drive, only cons.
Weight.
--
Bruce Clarke AMA 356285 '90 Kawasaki EX-500 Victoria, B.C., Canada
brcl...@islandnet.com
For motorcycle FAQs, try to login anonymous to the FTP site ftp.cecm.sfu.ca
"On the Internet, no one knows you're a pig."
Eric Murray [TEMP]
In article <4rrvi4$a...@sanjuan.islandnet.com> brcl...@islandnet.com (Bruce Clarke) writes:
>Lockheed WsmrSmts (Les...@cris.com) wrote:
>: There are no pros to chain drive, only cons.
>
>Weight.
Efficiency.
Adverse torque reaction.
Increased unsprung weight.
--
eric
Dan Nitschke
In article <4rrqk0$1...@liberator.concentric.net>,
Les...@cris.com (Lockheed WsmrSmts) writes:
:: Sandeep Singh (ss...@crux1.cit.cornell.edu) wrote:
::
:: : I come from India and the only motorcycles that I grew up
:: : with were all chain drives; in fact the first time I actually saw
:: : a mobike with shaft drive was last year. I am in the market for a
:: : used bike and was wondering what the pros and cons are. All I can
:: : tell is that the shaft drive takes out chain maintenance but what
:: : about long term maintenance?
::
:: There are no pros to chain drive, only cons. Shaft is the only
:: way to go for a no adjustment, low maintenance, long service life
:: drive system.
No, it's not the only choice. Try belt-drive.
As the old Packard slogan goes, "Ask the man who owns one."
/* dan: The Anti-Ged, Ignorant Yank (tm) #1, none-%er #7 */
Dan Nitschke <> Red Brick Systems <> nits...@redbrick.com
::-=-::-=-::-=-::-=-::-=-::-=-::-=-::-=-::-=-::-=-::-=-::-=-::
Read dozens of books about heroes and crooks; and I've learned
much from both of their styles. -- Jimmy Buffett
Chuck Rose
Lockheed WsmrSmts wrote:
>
> Sandeep Singh (ss...@crux1.cit.cornell.edu) wrote:
> : Hello all,
> : Looking for a little advice from the knowledgeable people
>
> You've found it!
>
> : with were all chain drives; in fact the first time I actually saw
> : a mobike with shaft drive was last year. I am in the market for a
> : used bike and was wondering what the pros and cons are. All I can
> : tell is that the shaft drive takes out chain maintenance but what
> : about long term maintenance?
>
> There are no pros to chain drive, only cons. Shaft is the only
> way to go for a no adjustment, low maintenance, long service life
> drive system.
>
> The Q DoD #42508
> 95 Virago 750 95 Virago 535
> etc...
Ever see a race bike with a shaft drive? (Excepting of course those wierd
europeans)
Jeff Pack
In article <4rs1v1$o...@engnews1.Eng.Sun.COM>, e...@sparticus.eng.sun.com
says...
I was wodnering when someone would bring this up... :)
Even though I have both Chain and shaft bikes, there are more cons
to shaft, than chain, just depends on your needs...
SteevenB
-->In article <4rrvi4$a...@sanjuan.islandnet.com> brcl...@islandnet.com
(Bruce Clarke) writes:
-->>Lockheed WsmrSmts (Les...@cris.com) wrote:
-->>: There are no pros to chain drive, only cons.
-->>eric
snarlingly writes:
-->>Weight.
-->
-->Efficiency.
-->
-->Adverse torque reaction.
-->
-->Increased unsprung weight.
Reliability
Ease of maint.
Cleanliness.
Safety
Linear characteristics of power transferrence
Quietness
Efficiency (on the ST anyway)
Ability to integrate ABS systems
just MHO
seeya
--
SteevenB
1986 FXRS-SP 89" S+S Stroker.......the rocket
1994 ST1100......the porpoise
Steve Ranta
. . .
> There are no pros to chain drive, only cons. Shaft is the only
> way to go for a no adjustment, low maintenance, long service life
> drive system.
I heard that the Kawasaki Concours shaft drive had to labouriously checked
every few thousand miles.
It seems to me that in the bad old days (which ended sometime in the
mid-1970s) fast bikes used to eat up their chains, and made BMWs with
shaft drives look good.
Since then, they make good chains that last a long time and don't need
much adjustment.
And, of course, having a bit of oil drop off your chain lets you get used
to seeing oil drop off other parts of your motorcycle, which will
eventually happen if you keep it long enough.
Of course, if you ride a shaft drive, and you let off the gas in the
middle of a corner, many things besides oil will start to drop off your
bike, including probably the rider! That alone is sufficient reason for
me to stay away from shaft-drive bikes.
--
Steve Ranta
CB750F
Leslie Derby
brcl...@islandnet.com (Bruce Clarke) writes:
>Lockheed WsmrSmts (Les...@cris.com) wrote:
>: There are no pros to chain drive, only cons.
>Weight.
Less drag.
Les Derby
'73 XLH
Geoff Hamer
Sandeep Singh (ss...@crux1.cit.cornell.edu) wrote:
: Hello all,
: Looking for a little advice from the knowledgeable people
: I come from India and the only motorcycles that I grew up
: with were all chain drives; in fact the first time I actually saw
: a mobike with shaft drive was last year. I am in the market for a
: used bike and was wondering what the pros and cons are. All I can
: tell is that the shaft drive takes out chain maintenance but what
: about long term maintenance?
: Thanks in advance for your time...
Sandeep,
You are bound to open up a can of worms with this one. You will get the
cruiser guys talking about high maintenance, messy chains and the
sportbike guys talking about heavy shaft drives that upset the suspension
and the odd Harley guy who loves belt drives. (then again, Harley guys
will try to convince you that push-rods are still the way to go :-) )
The real answer to this question depends on what kind of bike you want to
ride. Put in any other context the arguement becomes apples vs oranges.
On a sportbike a shaft is bad choice. It's heavy (not only in dead weight
but in rotating mass) and it's very difficult to change gear ratios. The
crown-ring gear set also imparts forces to the suspension that are
undesireable. For a sportbike, chains make a lot more sense. You are
likely to have people point out race winning bikes in the past that used
shaft drive (aka BMW, Moto Guzzi) but a quick look at today's race bikes
makes that arguement 'grumpy-old-man' talk.
On a cruiser, you are typically less worried about weight and suspension
upset. Yes, cranking the throttle open or closed in a corner will make for
an interesting ride.... and yes, this could cause an idiot rider to crash,
but the key here is not to be riding like an idiot. A skilled rider can
even use the shaft effect to increase a bikes ground clearance in a
corner... but that's another story. The low maintenance of a shaft drive
makes it an ideal solution for cruisers.
In the end, it comes down to what kind of riding you want to do. The
people that say garbage like, 'My uncle/brother/dad crashed his bike
because it was a shaft-drive' are full of **it. Their uncle/brother/dad
was probably drunk and definintely incompetent. There is nothing unsafe
about a shaft drive.
_____
.oooO / ) ( \ Oooo. Mr. Geoff "No longer between bikes" Hamer DoD#1492
( ) / ( ) \ ( ) Past Virago owner.... Current V-Max owner
\ ( ( ) ( ) ) / Visit Canada, see our fjords, ride on our Icephalt
--\_).oooO-Oooo.(_/--- gha...@ingenia.com. Ottawa, Canada
Bruce Clarke
Steve Ranta <sra...@macwest.org> wrote:
>Of course, if you ride a shaft drive, and you let off the gas in the
>middle of a corner, many things besides oil will start to drop off your
>bike, including probably the rider! That alone is sufficient reason for
>me to stay away from shaft-drive bikes.
Whatever other disadvantages shaft drives may have, the so-called "shaft
effect" isn't a major one. Letting off the gas in mid-corner may be bad
form, but having ridden a couple of different shafties (a Suzuki Intruder
and a BMW R80-GS) I never found this a problem.
--
Bruce Clarke AMA 356285 '90 Kawasaki EX-500 Victoria, B.C. Canada
brcl...@nyx.cs.du.edu
For FAQs, try to login anonymous to the FTP site ftp.cecm.sfu.ca
Jeff Pack
In article <Stafford-090...@jstafford.winona.msus.edu>, Staf...@Wind.Winona.msus.edu says...
>
>In article <sranta-0907...@van-pm-0517.direct.ca>,
>sra...@macwest.org (Steve Ranta) wrote:
>
>> Of course, if you ride a shaft drive, and you let off the gas in the
>> middle of a corner, many things besides oil will start to drop off your
>> bike, including probably the rider!
>
> It sounds like bullshit to me (speaking of later era BMW shafties.)
>
>--
I'm not a "pro", but I ride my BMW, almost as hard as my superbike,
and I've never had any problems letting off the gas in hard corners.
Only thing I dont like, is the compression aspects, but that's because my
BMW is a twin, and my racebike, is 4 cylinder...
--
The opinions expressed in this message are my own personal views
and do not reflect the official views of Microsoft Corporation.
Kenneth Scherer
>
>I'm not a "pro", but I ride my BMW, almost as hard as my superbike,
>and I've never had any problems letting off the gas in hard corners.
===============
All the obvious crap holds (I don't want to waste bandwidth on
nonsense). But consider this: some companies build lousy shaft
drives.. others real good at it. Companies even screw up from one
model to another. My 1978 Yamaha XS750 would rise and fall with the
throttle. Playing with the throttle in mid corner (if you were pushing
it) was definitely a -dangerous- thing to do. My 1979 Yamaha XS1100
has very little shaft effect. I find almost no rise and fall. The way
I see it:
Dan Nitschke
In article <Stafford-090...@jstafford.winona.msus.edu>,
Staf...@Wind.Winona.msus.edu (John J. Stafford) writes:
:: In article <sranta-0907...@van-pm-0517.direct.ca>,
:: sra...@macwest.org (Steve Ranta) wrote:
::
:: > Of course, if you ride a shaft drive, and you let off the gas in the
:: > middle of a corner, many things besides oil will start to drop off your
:: > bike, including probably the rider!
::
:: I'd like to hear a professional road racer's view on this.
:: It sounds like bullshit to me (speaking of later era BMW shafties.)
I'm not a roadracer, nor do I play one on TV; I'm just a guy who used
to ride a '91 K75s (a later-era BMW shafty). Letting off the gas in a
corner could cause the back end to sink a little. Really *chopping*
the throttle caused it to sink noticeably. It once caused me to scrape
the edge of a footpeg on the asphalt when I didn't plan to.
But, unless you're _really_ riding at the limit of clearance through a
corner, it's a minor problem at most.
I should also note that this bike didn't have the Paralever shaft;
supposedly, this minimizes the effect even more.
Mr. Ranta is overstating the phenomenon a great deal.
/* dan: The Anti-Ged, Ignorant Yank (tm) #1, none-%er #7 */
Dan Nitschke -- Red Brick Systems -- nits...@redbrick.com
o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0
Upon my every statement you can have complete reliance. I
know more than you do; call me Dr. Science! -- Dr. Science
Dan Roberts
Chuck Rose wrote:
>
> Lockheed WsmrSmts wrote:
> >
> > Sandeep Singh (ss...@crux1.cit.cornell.edu) wrote:
> > : Hello all,
> > : Looking for a little advice from the knowledgeable people
> >
> >
> > : I come from India and the only motorcycles that I grew up
> > : with were all chain drives; in fact the first time I actually saw
> > : a mobike with shaft drive was last year. I am in the market for a
> > : used bike and was wondering what the pros and cons are. All I can
> > : tell is that the shaft drive takes out chain maintenance but what
> > : about long term maintenance?
> >
> > way to go for a no adjustment, low maintenance, long service life
> > drive system.
> >
> > The Q DoD #42508
> > 95 Virago 750 95 Virago 535
> > etc...
>
> Ever see a race bike with a shaft drive? (Excepting of course those wierd
> europeans)
is amazed that there is NO shaft effect even if you roll off at the apex.
However, there is one benefit to shaft - if you roll on as you enter the
corner, the suspension stiffens and increases ride height.
> Dan Roberts AMCRA 4 Halifax NS Canada
Steve B
Chuck Rose wrote:
>
> Lockheed WsmrSmts wrote:
> >
> > Sandeep Singh (ss...@crux1.cit.cornell.edu) wrote:
> > : Hello all,
> > : Looking for a little advice from the knowledgeable people
> >
> > You've found it!
> >
> > : I come from India and the only motorcycles that I grew up
> > : with were all chain drives; in fact the first time I actually saw
> > : a mobike with shaft drive was last year. I am in the market for a
> > : used bike and was wondering what the pros and cons are. All I can
> > : tell is that the shaft drive takes out chain maintenance but what
> > : about long term maintenance?
> >
> > There are no pros to chain drive, only cons. Shaft is the only
> > way to go for a no adjustment, low maintenance, long service life
> > drive system.
> >
> > ______________________________________________
> > The Q DoD #42508
> > 95 Virago 750 95 Virago 535
> > etc...
>
> Ever see a race bike with a shaft drive? (Excepting of course those wierd
> europeans)
Yes
Reg Pridmore raced and won on a BMW in the 1970s.
Steve B
Marc J. Algeri
Robert Kleinschmidt wrote:
>
> In article <31E43A...@ionet.net>,
> Hank Blackstock <wa5...@ionet.net> wrote:
> >Jan Egil Sjastad wrote:
> >>
> >> What is important to be aware of though (if you like to have some fun)
> >> is that it is physically impossible to wheelie a shaftdriven bike.
> >> But if you want a boring life, it's the way to go...
I take it you've never ridden a V-Max, or a Suzuki Madura ? For that matter
my old Suzuki GS 850 would bring the front wheel up...
when properly motivated :)
Ravo Lainevool
In article <Stafford-090...@jstafford.winona.msus.edu>,
Staf...@Wind.Winona.msus.edu (John J. Stafford) wrote:
>In article <sranta-0907...@van-pm-0517.direct.ca>,
>sra...@macwest.org (Steve Ranta) wrote:
>
>> Of course, if you ride a shaft drive, and you let off the gas in the
>> middle of a corner, many things besides oil will start to drop off your
>> bike, including probably the rider!
>
> I'd like to hear a professional road racer's view on this.
> It sounds like bullshit to me (speaking of later era BMW shafties.)
>
Now, I'm no professional roadracer, but I've raced both shaft-drive and chain-drive
bikes. The shaft-drive race bike is a 82/83 Yamaha Vision (yeah, no kidding!) which is
extremely well behaved. Frankly, I don't notice the "shaft-effect", even when making
throttle and line changes in mid-corner. I suspect the rear shock has a lot to do with
this good control; its a FOX racing shock, that has fairly short travel, a heavy-duty
spring, AND I've got the damping cranked up to 6 of 8 positions.
Also, the horsepower is faily low (about 85hp, I suspect) so this would also minimize
the effects.
Overall, I can't tell the difference.
Ravo Lainevool
Sudbury, Ont
RACE AM#742, 82/83 Yamaha Vision
Andy Ettinger
In article <cc001099-080...@ip178.stamford.ct.interramp.com>,
cc00...@interramp.com says...
>Reliability
>Ease of maint.
>Cleanliness.
>Safety
>Linear characteristics of power transferrence
>Quietness
>Efficiency (on the ST anyway)
>Ability to integrate ABS systems
Oh yeah? Oh yeah? How about ENCLOSED Chain drive? Huh? huh? My old
euro-virago was SO neat I once looked in the inspection port just to make sure
there WAS a chain in there. AND it went like 275 mph and was so light it had
to be ballasted so it wouldn't float away when I got off it.
Linear characteristics of power transferrence? I stepped in some of that in
the last cow pasture. Wait! Wait! lemme tell you about my Transalp and how
cool IT is...
heh...
Brave Elmo
el...@kaos.RedBrick.COM writes:
>
> I should also note that this bike didn't have the Paralever shaft;
> supposedly, this minimizes the effect even more.
>
> Mr. Ranta is overstating the phenomenon a great deal.
>
If I'm not mistaken, all BMW's have had the Paralever of some
form or another since WAAAYYY before I was born. It has simply
been refined over the past several decades. That is why you
didn't have a more noticable torque reaction when dropping the
throttle midcorner (not a good idea on any bike). Mr. Ranta
could be right.
>
> /* dan: The Anti-Ged, Ignorant Yank (tm) #1, none-%er #7 */
>
> Dan Nitschke -- Red Brick Systems -- nits...@redbrick.com
> o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0
> Upon my every statement you can have complete reliance. I
> know more than you do; call me Dr. Science! -- Dr. Science
--
Own: 84 VF500F -needs name Fix: 86 VF500F(G), 84 YX600 Radian
72 CL175 -needs grave 82 Vision 550 (UGH!)
Momma always said "Life is like a box of chocolates,
by the time you get there, someone else has eaten the pecan clusters"
Chuck
On 9 Jul 1996 19:16:28 GMT, jef...@microsoft.com (Jeff Pack) wrote:
>In article <Stafford-090...@jstafford.winona.msus.edu>, Staf...@Wind.Winona.msus.edu says...
>>
>>In article <sranta-0907...@van-pm-0517.direct.ca>,
>>sra...@macwest.org (Steve Ranta) wrote:
>>
>>> Of course, if you ride a shaft drive, and you let off the gas in the
>>> middle of a corner, many things besides oil will start to drop off your
>>> bike, including probably the rider!
>>
>> I'd like to hear a professional road racer's view on this.
>> It sounds like bullshit to me (speaking of later era BMW shafties.)
>>
>>--
>
>I'm not a "pro", but I ride my BMW, almost as hard as my superbike,
>and I've never had any problems letting off the gas in hard corners.
>Only thing I dont like, is the compression aspects, but that's because my
>BMW is a twin, and my racebike, is 4 cylinder...
>
I'll second that opinion, I'm not a pro either. ;-) Seriously
though, the Turbo is a shaftie and I don't have any trouble letting
off the throttle in curves. Well, a least no trouble that I don't
create by having to let off in the first place. 8-)
"Gee, that line looked like the right one to take at the time......"
Chuck Lanter
96 FLSTN
82 CX500 Turbo
HSB #11
"Cynicism is just an unpleasant way of saying the truth"
-Lillian Hellman-
Andy Woodward
|Oh yeah? Oh yeah? How about ENCLOSED Chain drive? Huh? huh? My old
They dont look sexy :(
Robert Pearson
In article <DuB4w...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
Brave Elmo <pg...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>
>If I'm not mistaken, all BMW's have had the Paralever of some
>form or another since WAAAYYY before I was born.
>
You're mistaken (or very young). I don't know the exact date of the
paralever introduction, but it appeared somewhere in the mid to
late 80's on the GS model airhead, and eventually made its way onto most
of the rest of the range, except the K75.
The parlever design results in the force that ususly results in the
"suspension jack" effect on shaft dive bikes being reacted back to the
frame via a strut from the bevel drive back to the chassis, and does
eliminate the efect.
However, on reflection, I think that most of the (greatly
exaggerated IMO) adverse handing effects of "rolling off" in a bend which
have been attributed to the shaft drive may not be a shaft drive affect at
all, but more due to the change in gyroscopic moment as the flywheel
deccelerates on an in-line engine. Bikes with contra-rotating masses (such
as the K bikes or the CX500) don't exhibit the handling quirk. Lightening
the flywheel is almost obligatory to race an in-line twin; this months
Classic Bike has an article on an abortive attempt to build a racer
based on a Guzzi Ambassador (big, heavy, flywheel) and mentions this as
the major reason the bike was not competetive.
<snip>
>
>didn't have a more noticable torque reaction when dropping the
>throttle midcorner (not a good idea on any bike).
And that's the key, IMO. Bad riding is bad riding. And although the
consequences of that bad riding may me slightly more (or different) on a
shaftie than a chain or belt machine, to talk in terms of being pitched
off the machine (in anything other than flat-out racing conditions) is
absurd, IMO.
Bob
ASSHOLE $37
Steve Tuttle
a...@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward) wrote:
Neither do you but that hasn't stopped you from being in love with
yourself.
>
Peter Hobday
Brave Elmo (pg...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU) writes:
> el...@kaos.RedBrick.COM writes:
>>
>> I should also note that this bike didn't have the Paralever shaft;
>> supposedly, this minimizes the effect even more.
>>
>> Mr. Ranta is overstating the phenomenon a great deal.
>>
>
> If I'm not mistaken, all BMW's have had the Paralever of some
> form or another since WAAAYYY before I was born. It has simply
> been refined over the past several decades. That is why you
> didn't have a more noticable torque reaction when dropping the
> throttle midcorner (not a good idea on any bike). Mr. Ranta
> could be right.
Unless I'm dead wrong (again), the MG Daytona was the first popular,
modern shaftie with a articulated shaft to counteract throttle-induced
torque "jacking". The early shafties were notoriously bad (at least that
's what the review said - I couldn't see much wromng with my brother's R27(!).
Peter
Sleazy Rider
>
> :: In article <sranta-0907...@van-pm-0517.direct.ca>,
> :: sra...@macwest.org (Steve Ranta) wrote:
> ::
> :: > Of course, if you ride a shaft drive, and you let off the gas in the
> :: > middle of a corner, many things besides oil will start to drop off your
> :: > bike, including probably the rider!
> ::
> :: I'd like to hear a professional road racer's view on this.
> :: It sounds like bullshit to me (speaking of later era BMW shafties.)
>
> to ride a '91 K75s (a later-era BMW shafty). Letting off the gas in a
> corner could cause the back end to sink a little. Really *chopping*
> the throttle caused it to sink noticeably. It once caused me to scrape
> the edge of a footpeg on the asphalt when I didn't plan to.
>
> But, unless you're _really_ riding at the limit of clearance through a
> corner, it's a minor problem at most.
>
> supposedly, this minimizes the effect even more.
>
> Mr. Ranta is overstating the phenomenon a great deal.
Not necessarily belt drive breath. On many of the older BMWs and
Yamahas, the "shaft drive effect" was quite pronounced and suddenly
chopping the throttle in a corner could be an invitation to disaster.
Where you can really get into trouble with this type of set up is to
get into a decreasing radius corner too hot, chop the throttle,
lose more of your ground clearance and have to bank the bike
over even more as the corner tightens up. (Don’t ask me how
I know about such things.) This is one of the reasons why
a lot of olde timers developed the habit of keeping a little
throttle on and dragging the rear brake. Takes a bit of
practice to master this maneuver.
On the older chain drive bikes, we^W er, "they" used to do the thing
with the throttle and brakes more to take some of the slop
out of the drivetrain. ;-)
You're right about the Paralever design all but eliminating the
problem though at the expense of greater weight and complexity.
Sleazy Rider,
Flux Drive User
Jan Egil Sjastad
Les...@cris.com (Lockheed WsmrSmts) wrote:
[snip]
>
> There are no pros to chain drive, only cons. Shaft is the only
>way to go for a no adjustment, low maintenance, long service life
>drive system.
>
What is important to be aware of though (if you like to have some fun)
is that it is physically impossible to wheelie a shaftdriven bike.
But if you want a boring life, it's the way to go...
===============================================
Jan Egil Sjastad Jan.S...@microdesign.no
Henry H Hansteen
Jan Egil Sjastad (Jan.S...@microdesign.no) wrote:
: What is important to be aware of though (if you like to have some fun)
: is that it is physically impossible to wheelie a shaftdriven bike.
Maybe, but mechanically, it's easy.
Warlock
>From: Staf...@Wind.Winona.msus.edu (John J. Stafford)
>In article <DuB4w...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
>pg...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU (Brave Elmo) wrote:
>> If I'm not mistaken, all BMW's have had the Paralever of some
>> form or another since WAAAYYY before I was born.
Staf...@Wind.Winnona.msus.edu says
> Only if you are only under ten years old. My 81 r100rs has no
> such design. It is still the simplistic double-sided swingarm
> and shock. No feedback. No paralever.
> ...and I _like_ the way the rearend rises into the air under
> hard acceleration.
That head in the sand routine will get ya every time
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Warlock Wolf #3
k...@bunter.dartmouth.edu FLSTC
Lurking in the shadows
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Dave Smalley
>> way to go for a no adjustment, low maintenance, long service life
>> drive system.
>middle of a corner, many things besides oil will start to drop off your
for
>me to stay away from shaft-drive bikes.
Gee,
My shaft drive bike dosen't do that. Of course I'm not in the habit of
regularly reducing power in the middle of a corner. It is generally
considered bad form you know.
Dave e - Wolf 0 - '86 V65 Magna - When you look in the ashes,
Miami FL BS 4T look well. Merlin
dsm...@igc.net
http://www.igc.net/~dsmall -for used cruiser asking prices
Christopher D Troudt
In article <31e3fc6b....@194.52.172.18>,
Jan Egil Sjastad <Jan.S...@microdesign.no> wrote:
>
>What is important to be aware of though (if you like to have some fun)
>is that it is physically impossible to wheelie a shaftdriven bike.
SAY WHAT???!!!
Got any more of that stuff yer smokin'?
Later,
CT
Brave Elmo
> >
> >If I'm not mistaken, all BMW's have had the Paralever of some
> >form or another since WAAAYYY before I was born.
> >
>
> paralever introduction, but it appeared somewhere in the mid to
> late 80's on the GS model airhead, and eventually made its way onto most
> of the rest of the range, except the K75.
>
> ASSHOLE $37
>
>
Perhapse not Paralever (single sided swingarm). Maybe i was
thinking about the basis for Paralever. The shaft arm has a
second connecting member (not the brake link) that would help
to reduce the shaft effect. I'll ask my brother to look it up
in one of our BMW books. This I know they have had for a long
time.
Ye Wild Rider
Lockheed WsmrSmts (Les...@cris.com) wrote:
: There are no pros to chain drive, only cons.
point down that joint.
chain drive's pros:
- lighter weight
- no pogo-stick torque-reaction
- less power loss
- much easier to change ratios
you will note that the advantages of a chain drive mesh well with the
performance requirements of sportbikes.
gears,
ye wilde ryder
--
wal...@neta.com | 91 zx-11 "black beauty" 83 v65 magna "animal" (RIP)
wro...@amex-trs.com | 86 cr250 "dirt devil" 79 it250 "mr reliable"
"E Pluribus Unix" | 82 v45 magna "elliot" (RIP) JHLO#0002 Support the RKBA
"I have no heart to lie, I can't pretend a stranger is a long awaited friend."
Brave Elmo
Steve B writes:
> Chuck Rose wrote:
> >
> > Ever see a race bike with a shaft drive? (Excepting of course those wierd
> > europeans)
>
> Yes
>
> Reg Pridmore raced and won on a BMW in the 1970s.
>
> Steve B
BMW's are made by wierd Europeans. Unless you think that
Germany is not in Europe, then you have not seen a racebike
with shaft brive not from Europe.
TOBY BRANFOOT
Dave Smalley
In article <kac.273....@bunter.dartmouth.edu>,
>> hard acceleration.
>
>That head in the sand routine will get ya every time
Nah, that's Carol's trick.
I have to agree w/ John, when I crank it, she lifts like a speedboat
gettin on a plane. It adds to the sledgehammer effect.
Dan Nitschke
In article <31E41F...@erols.com>,
Sleazy Rider <dc...@erols.com> writes:
:: Dan Nitschke wrote:
:: >
:: > In article <Stafford-090...@jstafford.winona.msus.edu>,
:: > Staf...@Wind.Winona.msus.edu (John J. Stafford) writes:
:: >
:: > :: In article <sranta-0907...@van-pm-0517.direct.ca>,
:: > :: sra...@macwest.org (Steve Ranta) wrote:
:: > ::
:: > :: > Of course, if you ride a shaft drive, and you let off the gas in the
:: > :: > middle of a corner, many things besides oil will start to drop off your
:: > :: > bike, including probably the rider!
:: > ::
:: > :: I'd like to hear a professional road racer's view on this.
:: > :: It sounds like bullshit to me (speaking of later era BMW shafties.)
:: >
:: > I'm not a roadracer, nor do I play one on TV; I'm just a guy who used
:: > to ride a '91 K75s (a later-era BMW shafty). Letting off the gas in a
:: > corner could cause the back end to sink a little. Really *chopping*
:: > the throttle caused it to sink noticeably. It once caused me to scrape
:: > the edge of a footpeg on the asphalt when I didn't plan to.
:: >
:: > But, unless you're _really_ riding at the limit of clearance through a
:: > corner, it's a minor problem at most.
:: >
:: > I should also note that this bike didn't have the Paralever shaft;
:: > supposedly, this minimizes the effect even more.
:: >
:: > Mr. Ranta is overstating the phenomenon a great deal.
::
:: Not necessarily belt drive breath. On many of the older BMWs and
:: Yamahas, the "shaft drive effect" was quite pronounced and suddenly
:: chopping the throttle in a corner could be an invitation to disaster.
Umm... we were talking about "later-era BMW shafties" (see that text up
there?), not older BMWs and Yamahahas. In the words of Cecil Adams,
"When we're discussing the price of rice in China, I am not interested
in your opinions on the temperature of spit in Wichita."
:: Where you can really get into trouble with this type of set up is to
:: get into a decreasing radius corner too hot, chop the throttle,
:: lose more of your ground clearance and have to bank the bike
:: over even more as the corner tightens up. (Don’t ask me how
:: I know about such things.) This is one of the reasons why
:: a lot of olde timers developed the habit of keeping a little
:: throttle on and dragging the rear brake. Takes a bit of
:: practice to master this maneuver.
Really? I learned to do that, all by myself, on the aforementioned K75s,
and I had all of 1 month riding experience before I bought the bike.
Does that make me a "shaft savant"?
:: You're right about the Paralever design all but eliminating the
:: problem though at the expense of greater weight and complexity.
I know I am right. I am _always_ right. Reality is occasionally a
bit slow in acknowledging that fact.
/* dan: The Anti-Ged, Ignorant Yank (tm) #1, none-%er #7 */
Dan Nitschke ## Red Brick Systems ## nits...@redbrick.com
=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~
And that was good advice... good advice! Good advice costs
nothing, and it's worth the price! -- Allan Sherman
Hank Blackstock
> is that it is physically impossible to wheelie a shaftdriven bike.
>
> ===============================================
> Jan Egil Sjastad Jan.S...@microdesign.no
B.S. I have wheelied my BMWs many times.
Hank Blackstock
William Corona
In article <4s191p$j...@lectura.CS.Arizona.EDU> tro...@CS.Arizona.EDU (Christopher D Troudt) writes:
>In article <31e3fc6b....@194.52.172.18>,
>Jan Egil Sjastad <Jan.S...@microdesign.no> wrote:
>>
>>is that it is physically impossible to wheelie a shaftdriven bike.
>SAY WHAT???!!!
>
>Got any more of that stuff yer smokin'?
Can you see it coming, folks?
--
William "Wild Bill" Corona RotRotKotL DoD# 1665 Axe Murderer #1
wco...@pyramid.com 1992 Suzuki Katana 750 "suzi"
"I'd rather be hunted as a wolf than slaughtered like a sheep..."
"Life is what happens while your making other plans..."
Robert Kleinschmidt
>>
>> What is important to be aware of though (if you like to have some fun)
>> is that it is physically impossible to wheelie a shaftdriven bike.
>
>
Probably worn pillion bearings. You really should have them checked
periodically. Ask around til you find a shop willing to do this
for you.
>Hank Blackstock
Gary M. Russell
> is that it is physically impossible to wheelie a shaftdriven bike.
> But if you want a boring life, it's the way to go...
>
> Jan Egil Sjastad Jan.S...@microdesign.no
--
Hey Jan, just because you can't get it up, don't assume the rest of us
with shafts don't.
Gary M. Russell
> > :: > Of course, if you ride a shaft drive, and you let off the gas in=
the
> > :: > middle of a corner, many things besides oil will start to drop o=
ff your
> > :: > bike, including probably the rider!
> Not necessarily belt drive breath. On many of the older BMWs and
> Yamahas, the "shaft drive effect" was quite pronounced and suddenly
> chopping the throttle in a corner could be an invitation to disaster.
> =
> Where you can really get into trouble with this type of set up is to
> get into a decreasing radius corner too hot, chop the throttle,
> lose more of your ground clearance and have to bank the bike
> over even more as the corner tightens up. (Don=92t ask me how
> I know about such things.) This is one of the reasons why
> a lot of olde timers developed the habit of keeping a little
> throttle on and dragging the rear brake. Takes a bit of
> practice to master this maneuver.
> =
A guy I ride with on Tuesday nights dumped his R75 letting off the =
throttle in a corner recently. More of a problem because the front end =
is mush to start with. I guess I will not be riding with him as the bike=
=
was trashed pretty good.
My shaft drive Yamaha does not have that effect as much as I put =
Progressive springs in the front and have the rears up tight. Something =
I will be more aware of now I'm sure.
gary
Steve B
Brave Elmo wrote:
>
> Steve B writes:
> > Chuck Rose wrote:
> > >
> > > Ever see a race bike with a shaft drive? (Excepting of course those wierd
> > > europeans)
> >
> > Yes
> >
> > Reg Pridmore raced and won on a BMW in the 1970s.
> >
> > Steve B
> Uhh, Steve, here's a bit of news that may just shock you.
> BMW's are made by wierd Europeans. Unless you think that
> Germany is not in Europe, then you have not seen a racebike
> with shaft brive not from Europe.
Uhh, Brave Elmo.
I answered his question (you know, the sentence that ends at the question
mark).
his caveat about wierd europeans implies people not bikes
quit surfing the net instead of attending your english class.
BTW: Max Bubeck won the 1947 Greenhorn Enduro (an American race) on an
Indian four (an American motorcycle with a shaft drive). I've seen a
picture of the bike.
Steve B
Robert Pearson
I sed:
>>
>> You're mistaken (or very young). I don't know the exact date of the
>> paralever introduction, but it appeared somewhere in the mid to
>> late 80's on the GS model airhead, and eventually made its way onto most
>> of the rest of the range, except the K75.
>>
>>
>thinking about the basis for Paralever. The shaft arm has a
>second connecting member (not the brake link) that would help
>to reduce the shaft effect. I'll ask my brother to look it up
>in one of our BMW books. This I know they have had for a long
>time.
Well, they sure as hell didn't have it when i bought my '78. Tou _are_
older than 18 aren't you?
Bob
ASSHOLE #37
Eric Dreher
In <4s1k40$1...@pyrman2.mis.pyramid.com>, wco...@pyrman2.mis.pyramid.com (William Corona) writes:
>In article <4s191p$j...@lectura.CS.Arizona.EDU> tro...@CS.Arizona.EDU (Christopher D Troudt) writes:
>>In article <31e3fc6b....@194.52.172.18>,
>>Jan Egil Sjastad <Jan.S...@microdesign.no> wrote:
>>>
>>>is that it is physically impossible to wheelie a shaftdriven bike.
>
>
Groan...here we go again.
Eric D.
'97 FLHR (in Sept.)
HSB #6
http://www.adnc.com/web/ericd/ericd.html
Your First Amendment rights are in danger because
your Second Amendment rights are in danger.
SteevenB
In article <4rv3dr$k...@news-old.tiac.net>, a...@tiac.net (Andy Ettinger) wrote:
-->In article <cc001099-080...@ip178.stamford.ct.interramp.com>,
-->cc00...@interramp.com says...
-->>Reliability
-->>Ease of maint.
-->>Cleanliness.
-->>Safety
-->>Linear characteristics of power transferrence
-->>Quietness
-->>Efficiency (on the ST anyway)
-->>Ability to integrate ABS systems
-->
-->Oh yeah? Oh yeah? How about ENCLOSED Chain drive? Huh? huh? My old
-->euro-virago was SO neat I once looked in the inspection port just to
make sure
-->there WAS a chain in there. AND it went like 275 mph and was so light
it had
-->to be ballasted so it wouldn't float away when I got off it.
-->
-->Linear characteristics of power transferrence? I stepped in some of that in
-->the last cow pasture. Wait! Wait! lemme tell you about my Transalp
and how
-->cool IT is...
-->
-->heh...
andy yer bait smells steenky
you'll have to do better,
iffin ya want a rise outta me
seeya ballast boy
--
SteevenB
1986 FXRS-SP 89" S+S Stroker.......the rocket
1994 ST1100......the porpoise
Erik Astrup
On Tue, 09 Jul 1996 19:29:10 -0700, Steve B <sbe...@airmail.net> wrote:
>Reg Pridmore raced and won on a BMW in the 1970s.
Not to mention how he scared the crap out of me and hundreds of
others two up on a K1100 at one hell of a pace around Laguna, Sears Pt
and other tracks. All the time lapping other students on their superior
chain drive macines.
----------------------------------------------------
Erik Astrup DOD #683
'93 CBR 900RR --- '89 Transalp
www.mother.com/~eastrup/home.htm
Home of "Astrup's Motorcycling Hall of Lame!"
Team Iguana Racing Owner
*** Keeper of the Transalp Mailing List ***
1992 KDX-200 For Sale - Silly Inquiries Only!
See homepage for details (It's for sale, really!)
----------------------------------------------------
Dave Smalley
>(Lockheed WsmrSmts) wrote:
>
>.. . .
>> There are no pros to chain drive, only cons. Shaft is the only
>> way to go for a no adjustment, low maintenance, long service life
>> drive system.
>Of course, if you ride a shaft drive, and you let off the gas in the
>middle of a corner, many things besides oil will start to drop off your
>bike, including probably the rider! That alone is sufficient reason
for
>me to stay away from shaft-drive bikes.
Gee,
My shaft drive bike dosen't do that. Of course I'm not in the habit of
regularly reducing power in the middle of a corner. It is generally
considered bad form you know.
Natural Born Cereal Killer
Staf...@Wind.Winona.msus.edu (John J. Stafford) writes:
>> Of course, if you ride a shaft drive, and you let off the gas in the
>> middle of a corner, many things besides oil will start to drop off your
>> bike, including probably the rider!
> I'd like to hear a professional road racer's view on this.
> It sounds like bullshit to me (speaking of later era BMW shafties.)
Frame geometry plays a great part in this -- you can get the
same effect on a chain-drive bike if the countershaft is not level
with the rear wheel sprocket, though it is somewhat less pronounced.
To see for yourself, find a Suzuki Madura, about an '83 model
1100cc job. You weigh about the same as I do, right? Putt down the
street in 2nd gear, say 2500rpm, and romp on it quickly.
Myself, at an altitude of 8K feet or so I was able to get
both wheels to leave the ground. Riding it up and down the Big
Thompson Canyon from Estes Park to the Valley I found I steered
about as much with the throttle as I did with the handlebars.
On the chain-drive Honda 750K, I did not notice the effect at
all. However, on the Honda you could grab a handfull of throttle
in a corner and feel confident that the bike would track about
the same. On that shaft-drive Madura, well... Let's just say
it always felt like changing its line and I had a gut feeling
that twisting the wrist too much would spit me off the inside
of the turn.
The Madura had more torque, no doubt, though the Honda
had about 20hp on it thanks to the folks at Yoshimura. The
greater torque would make the effect more pronounced, I should
think, but at speed on the road I believe the difference is
more due to inherent problems with the frame geometry than in
any difference in torque or horsepower output.
Dropping the throttle in a corner was always an exciting
exercise in achieving the point of maximum pucker. I don't claim
to be a racer, but I did discover that dropping the throttle
did result in the ass end dropping, my tire loading, and turn
angle changing for the sharper. For a racer, riding at the edge
of traction, this would mean a rear-end slide unless checked
quickly, and that means the guy with the other bike has an
advantage in off-throttle cornering. On the Honda, though,
I could chop throttle, brake, downshift, upshift, grab a
handfull, get laid, whatever... the bike just didn't care
one way or the other. It tracked true no matter what.
I can't say this is inherent with chain or shaft drive,
but I believe the shaft drive is much more sensitive to the
little differences in frame geometry than a chain is.
-- Dan
--
* Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066, ASSHOLE #35, z1...@exnet.iastate.edu *
* Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. *
* The town was burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need *
* those sheep anyway. That's our story and we're sticking to it. *
Jon Marchant
Jan Egil Sjastad wrote:
>>
>>What is important to be aware of though (if you like to have some fun)
>>is that it is physically impossible to wheelie a shaftdriven bike.
and Chris Troudt wrote:
>SAY WHAT???!!!
>Got any more of that stuff yer smokin'?
and Hank Blackstock wrote:
>B.S. I have wheelied my BMWs many times.
and Henry H. Hansteen wrote:
>Maybe, but mechanically, it's easy.
Jan, I think three's the limit. If you catch any more, you have to
throw 'em back. You *do* have a license, don't you?
Jon Marchant
marc...@linex.com
David DeCoster
In article <Stafford-100...@jstafford.winona.msus.edu>, Staf...@Wind.Winona.msus.edu (John J. Stafford) writes:
|> In article <DuB4w...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
|> pg...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU (Brave Elmo) wrote:
|>
|>
|> ...and I _like_ the way the rearend rises into the air under
|> hard acceleration.
|>
|> John J. Stafford - Winona State University Information Services
John, quit trying to change the subject to sex!!
--
Davey D ASSHOLE#7
For those who understand, NO explanation
is needed, for those who DON'T understand
NO explanation will be given.
Janice in NYC
pg...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU (Brave Elmo) wrote:
>> You're mistaken (or very young). I don't know the exact date of the
>> paralever introduction, but it appeared somewhere in the mid to
>> late 80's on the GS model airhead, and eventually made its way onto most
>> of the rest of the range, except the K75.
>>
>> Bob
>> ASSHOLE $37
>>
>>
>Perhapse not Paralever (single sided swingarm). Maybe i was
The older BMWs had single sided swingarms also, but they didn't do
much to reduce the shaft effect, I think they called these older
swingarms Monolevers.....
>thinking about the basis for Paralever. The shaft arm has a
>second connecting member (not the brake link) that would help
>to reduce the shaft effect. I'll ask my brother to look it up
No, the setups with the second member are the Paralevers, the
MOnolevers lacked these. The second member formed a parallelogram
shape with teh swingarm member, that's how they got the name
Paralever.
Janice Chung Miss Bullshit USA
Sapp...@innonyc.com __ __ __ KotPMS OGREss #1
Usegroup Coordinator, _/ -/ O\___/~ \_ Honourary Brit #001
rec.motorcycles / / ___\___ \ __ __
/ \ \ / \ +-, ( )( )
Newy Ork City / /\\E/\\_ //\ \ | ]=|-- --|
\_/ / /_/- \-//--\ \_ +-' +------+
1997 Suzuki GSX-R1100 | /| /\____ ___ \ | \ /\
1995 Harley-Davidson | / | / || \ |\ | / \
FLSTF Fat Boy || || || || || / \
""""""""""""""""""""""""So many men, so little time""""""""""""""""""
John M Feiereisen
In article <4s1k40$1...@pyrman2.mis.pyramid.com>,
William Corona <wco...@pyrman2.mis.pyramid.com> wrote:
>In article <4s191p$j...@lectura.CS.Arizona.EDU>
>tro...@CS.Arizona.EDU (Christopher D Troudt) writes:
>>In article <31e3fc6b....@194.52.172.18>,
>>Jan Egil Sjastad <Jan.S...@microdesign.no> wrote:
>>>What is important to be aware of though (if you like to have some fun)
>>>is that it is physically impossible to wheelie a shaftdriven bike.
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>SAY WHAT???!!!
>>Got any more of that stuff yer smokin'?
>Can you see it coming, folks?
Every time, Bill. Every time.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the more subtle effect shaft-drive
has on a bike's handling -- the inability to countersteer.
--
John M. Feiereisen | '85 Honda CB700SC Nighthawk HSB #1
feie...@ecn.purdue.edu | http://widget.ecn.purdue.edu/~feiereis
David Braun
So and so wrote:
>>> You're mistaken (or very young). I don't know the exact date of the
>>> paralever introduction, but it appeared somewhere in the mid to
>>> late 80's on the GS model airhead, and eventually made its way onto most
>>> of the rest of the range, except the K75.
>>Perhapse not Paralever (single sided swingarm). Maybe i was
>>second connecting member (not the brake link) that would help
>>to reduce the shaft effect. I'll ask my brother to look it up
Followed by Senseless:
>No, the setups with the second member are the Paralevers, the
>MOnolevers lacked these. The second member formed a parallelogram
>shape with teh swingarm member, that's how they got the name
>Paralever.
Senseless is correct. I am the original owner of a pair of 1981 R80G/Ss.
This is the first bike with the MONOlever rear suspension. In Germany,
there was a 1980 R80G/S, but not in the USA. However, in 1981, the R80G/S
was the ONLY BMW in the line with this suspension. It was a couple of
years before they totally abandoned the bifurcated system of yore.
You'd have to be fifteen years old or less to have been born after BMW had
single-sided swingarms.
(For adventure Tales aboard these and other bikes, see my web page.)
===========================================================================
"If God was MY co-pilot, I'd be doing a 120." - Striptease (the book)
http://mars.superlink.net/user/rriegler/njsbmwmr/braun/flash.html
David A. Braun - Fl...@fc.hp.com - Fl...@DeathStar.org - DoD # 412
Disclaimer: HP speaks for HP. David Braun speaks for David Braun.
===========================================================================
--
Sleazy Rider
Brave Elmo wrote:
>
> el...@kaos.RedBrick.COM writes:
> >
> > I should also note that this bike didn't have the Paralever shaft;
> > supposedly, this minimizes the effect even more.
> >
> > Mr. Ranta is overstating the phenomenon a great deal.
> >
>
> form or another since WAAAYYY before I was born.
You're mistaken. Of course your being born only recently may have
something to do with it, as nearly everthing that has happened in
the world so far had already taken place before you got here.
> It has simply
> been refined over the past several decades. That is why you
> didn't have a more noticable torque reaction when dropping the
> throttle midcorner (not a good idea on any bike). Mr. Ranta
> could be right.
If memory serves (problem with being an Olde Pharte) I believe
BMW developed the "Paralever" shaft drive with a double jointed shaft
and articulated control arms for the K-75/K-100 series and rapidly
adapted it to the dual-sport models as well. Or maybe it was the
dual-sport models and then on to the K series. Whatever.
The older BMWs, as well as most other motorcycles with shaft drive,
use a single U or CV joint at the swingarm pivot point. The problem
with the old BMWs, Moto Guzzis and certain Yamahas like the XS-750,
is they have soft, long travel rear suspensions that make the effect
of the bike going up and down in relation to throttle input, much more
pronounced. The effect comes from the pinion gear trying to climb the
ring gear and deflecting the torque into the suspension instead.
Sleazy Rider,
Shafted, Not Stirred
Lockheed WsmrSmts
Chuck Rose (cr...@pacifichd.com) wrote:
: Ever see a race bike with a shaft drive? (Excepting of course those wierd
: europeans)
Ever seen a race bike on the street? Long life, and ease of
maintenance are not large factors in a race bike.
______________________________________________
The Q DoD #42508
95 Virago 750 95 Virago 535
etc...
Geoff Hamer
Hank Blackstock (wa5...@ionet.net) wrote:: > >
: >
: >
: > What is important to be aware of though (if you like to have some fun)
: > is that it is physically impossible to wheelie a shaftdriven bike.
: B.S. I have wheelied my BMWs many times.
No you haven't... you just 'THINK' you have.
_____
.oooO / ) ( \ Oooo. Mr. Geoff "No longer between bikes" Hamer DoD#1492
( ) / ( ) \ ( ) Past Virago owner.... Current V-Max owner
\ ( ( ) ( ) ) / Visit Canada, see our fjords, ride on our Icephalt
--\_).oooO-Oooo.(_/--- gha...@ingenia.com. Ottawa, Canada
Geoff Hamer
Christopher D Troudt (tro...@CS.Arizona.EDU) wrote:
: In article <31e3fc6b....@194.52.172.18>,
: >What is important to be aware of though (if you like to have some fun)
: >is that it is physically impossible to wheelie a shaftdriven bike.
: SAY WHAT???!!!
: Got any more of that stuff yer smokin'?
New around here, eh?
David Braun
>Chuck Rose (cr...@pacifichd.com) wrote:
>: Ever see a race bike with a shaft drive? (Excepting of course those wierd
>: europeans)
Lockheed WsmrSmts <Les...@cris.com> wrote:
> Ever seen a race bike on the street? Long life, and ease of
>maintenance are not large factors in a race bike.
HEY! I resemble that. Actually BOTH of those, rolled up into one.
At one point in time I actually road raced a BMW R80G/S in WERA. Due to
WERA rules, my air-cooled two valve 800cc (up to 1000cc, I think) twin
was in the same class as liquid cooled any-valved, 600cc fours.
Guess what? Honda Hurricanes kicked my butt... DOWN THE STRAIGHTAWAYS.
Generally, in the curvey parts of the track I was the one doing the
passing. Don't talk to me about how shafties don't handle. Mine (with
me on it) handled better than the Hurricanes. Of course, being down about
50% on horsepower didn't win me any races. But we are discussing the pros
and cons of shaft vs. chain, not engine design ideology. Shafties rob
power. But changing ratios for a SERIOUS shaft drive race bike actually
takes LESS WORK than changing sprockets. There are only about a half
dozen bolts to mess with to swap rear ends. (Changing the ring & pinion
inside the rear end is a PITA, that's why a serious racer has spares
with different ratios already installed.)
So... my fifteen year old "wierd European" bike, which is also a "race
bike" which is also a "street bike" which is also a "touring bike" which
is also a "dirt bike" seems to do pretty well with a shaft besides its
long life and ease of maintenance.
How many chains and sprokets would you have been through in 110,000
miles (and at what cost)? I think I have been though about three u-joint
boots (~$6 each) and a few quarts of 90 wt. (changed at 10,000 mile
intervals).
(There is a picture of my R80G/S race bike at Talledega on my web page.)
ObHarleyContent: I used to have a Harley... it was the one that was a
copy of a BMW, the 42XA.
Andy Woodward
|>What is important to be aware of though (if you like to have some fun)
|>is that it is physically impossible to wheelie a shaftdriven bike.
| ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|SAY WHAT???!!!
|Got any more of that stuff yer smokin'?
Anothewr one that hasnt clue about motorcycledynamics.
But shafties are great for stoppies as long as you rev em simultaneously to
cramping teh front brake - in order for the shaft rise to flick teh rear
wheeel into the air.
mat...@rchland.ibm.com
In <31e3fc6b....@194.52.172.18>, Jan.S...@microdesign.no (Jan Egil Sjastad) writes:
>Les...@cris.com (Lockheed WsmrSmts) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>>
>>way to go for a no adjustment, low maintenance, long service life
>>drive system.
>>
>
>is that it is physically impossible to wheelie a shaftdriven bike.
>
>
>
>===============================================
>Jan Egil Sjastad Jan.S...@microdesign.no
>
I would have to disagree with this statment. I test drove
an R1100RTH not to long ago and when I hit the gas in 1st
gear and grabed 2nd the front end came off the ground real
nice.
Matt #16
Jeff Pack
In article <8C4346F.0424...@almac.co.uk>,
toby.b...@almac.co.uk says...
>
>This becomes especially important if you are doing any significant
>tours. One trip into France had me lubing the chain at every other
>petrol stop and it was knackered by the time I got to the ferry home -
>the adjusters fully out and still so slack it was about to come off the
>sprocket (not enough francs to replace it there). That was something
>like a 3500 mile trip - next time I'd changed the chain-driven XJ600 for
>a shaftie XJ900!
Or better chain? :)
--
The opinions expressed in this message are my own personal views
and do not reflect the official views of Microsoft Corporation.
william goodale
all bikes wheelie
Eric Murray [TEMP]
In article <DuB4w...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> pg...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU (Brave Elmo) writes:
>el...@kaos.RedBrick.COM writes:
>>
>> I should also note that this bike didn't have the Paralever shaft;
>> supposedly, this minimizes the effect even more.
>>
>> Mr. Ranta is overstating the phenomenon a great deal.
>>
>
>If I'm not mistaken, all BMW's have had the Paralever of some
>form or another since WAAAYYY before I was born.
You write well for someone who's eight years old.
> It has simply
>been refined over the past several decades. That is why you
>didn't have a more noticable torque reaction when dropping the
>throttle midcorner (not a good idea on any bike).
Over the years before the Paralever BMW improved the handling
and torque reation of the shaft drive. My '77 RS didn't have
as much a torque reaction as the '82 Yamaha Seca 750 I used to have
probly because the BMW didn't have as much power to jack
the chassis around with. But it was still there and noticeable.
--
eric
William Corona
In article <4s30v4$g...@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> feie...@widget.ecn.purdue.edu (John M Feiereisen) writes:
>In article <4s1k40$1...@pyrman2.mis.pyramid.com>,
>William Corona <wco...@pyrman2.mis.pyramid.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <4s191p$j...@lectura.CS.Arizona.EDU>
>>tro...@CS.Arizona.EDU (Christopher D Troudt) writes:
>
>>>>is that it is physically impossible to wheelie a shaftdriven bike.
>>>SAY WHAT???!!!
>
>>>Got any more of that stuff yer smokin'?
>
>
>Every time, Bill. Every time.
>
>I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the more subtle effect shaft-drive
>has on a bike's handling -- the inability to countersteer.
Damnnn! You're *EVIL* John!
--
William "Wild Bill" Corona RotRotKotL DoD# 1665 Axe Murderer #1
wco...@pyramid.com 1992 Suzuki Katana 750 "suzi"
"I'd rather be hunted as a wolf than slaughtered like a sheep..."
"Life is what happens while your making other plans..."
KEVIN BURKE
I've ridden with a honda nighthawk s that does some really good
wheelies. At a stanstill he tachs it up (way up) dumps the clutch
the bike squats then the front wheel shoots skyward. It's not a
problem for this shaftie
Brave Elmo
You guys are right. The BMWs only had Paralever since the mid
80's. The Monolever was earlier, and the swingarm was before
that. I am the first to admit when I am wrong (but only after
30 other people tell me I am wrong). My punishment?
--
Own: 84 VF500F -needs name Fix: 86 VF500F(G), 84 YX600 Radian
72 CL175 -needs grave 82 Vision 550 (UGH!)
Momma always said "Life is like a box of chocolates,
by the time you get there, someone else has eaten the pecan clusters"
WRJ JRS
>it is phyiscally impossible to wheelie a shaft drive bike?
This guy never saw the photos of Doug Dekemos wheelieing theshaft drive
KZ1300 !!!!! WRJJRS
mat...@rchland.ibm.com
In <1996Jul10.2...@RedBrick.COM>, el...@kaos.RedBrick.COM (Dan Nitschke) writes:
>In article <31E41F...@erols.com>,
>Sleazy Rider <dc...@erols.com> writes:
>
SNIP
>Really? I learned to do that, all by myself, on the aforementioned K75s,
>and I had all of 1 month riding experience before I bought the bike.
>Does that make me a "shaft savant"?
I knew I women that was a "shaft savant" too. Course she didn't
practice this on motorcycle and I don't know how much experience
she had before I got in the picture.....
Matt #16
Racer_X
> : >
> : >
> : > What is important to be aware of though (if you like to have some fun)
> : > is that it is physically impossible to wheelie a shaftdriven bike.
> : >
> : > ===============================================
> : > Jan Egil Sjastad Jan.S...@microdesign.no
> : B.S. I have wheelied my BMWs many times.
>
> No you haven't... you just 'THINK' you have.
Just like he 'THINKS' he countersteers, right? Go home.
Don Hinds
. All I can
>tell is that the shaft drive takes out chain maintenance but what
>about long term maintenance?
>
Long term maintainence is less too. As chains wear, they wear both
sprockets. Shafts, properly maintained (lubed) should last as long as
they do in a car. In between are the belts. They wear, but don't wear the
sprockets.
Don
Peter Hobday
Andy Woodward (a...@aber.ac.uk) writes:
> |>What is important to be aware of though (if you like to have some fun)
> |>is that it is physically impossible to wheelie a shaftdriven bike.
> | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> |SAY WHAT???!!!
>
> |Got any more of that stuff yer smokin'?
>
> Anothewr one that hasnt clue about motorcycledynamics.
>
> But shafties are great for stoppies as long as you rev em simultaneously to
> cramping teh front brake - in order for the shaft rise to flick teh rear
> wheeel into the air.
If you slam the throttle shut in mid-stoppie you can lift THE ENTIRE BIKE
in the air. I think Cook Neilson used to do this at the top of the Laguna
Seca corkscrew in order to turn his bike in MID-AIR!
Pete Newton
Norm Lastovica
In article <4rte0l$1o...@saturn.vcu.edu>, lde...@saturn.vcu.edu (Leslie Derby) writes:
»brcl...@islandnet.com (Bruce Clarke) writes:
»
»>Lockheed WsmrSmts (Les...@cris.com) wrote:
»>: There are no pros to chain drive, only cons.
»
»>Weight.
»
»Less drag.
I've heard the 'lass drag' argument a number of times.
I don't know one way or the other, but who has some hard numbers
to back the claim up or dispute it? so far, it mostly seems to
be folk lore and rumor.
--
the opinions expressed here are my own and hardly ever
reflect those of Oracle Corporation.
Hank Blackstock
Robert Kleinschmidt wrote:
> Hank Blackstock <wa5...@ionet.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >B.S. I have wheelied my BMWs many times.
> >
>
> Probably worn pillion bearings. You really should have them checked
> periodically. Ask around til you find a shop willing to do this
> for you.
Having been a BMW dealer and tuner for a a Battle of the Twins BMW
(Marvin West former National #44) I think I can do it myself, thanks.
Hank Blackstock
>
> >Hank Blackstock
Long Shot
Brave Elmo wrote:
>
> You guys are right. The BMWs only had Paralever since the mid
> 80's. The Monolever was earlier, and the swingarm was before
> that. I am the first to admit when I am wrong (but only after
> 30 other people tell me I am wrong). My punishment?
Three hours of non-stop I Love Lucy reruns.
Long shot was here.
Dan Nitschke
In article <4s68gd$5...@nedc.us.oracle.com>,
last...@hotrdb.enet.dec.com (Norm Lastovica) writes:
:: I've heard the 'lass drag' argument a number of times.
So have I. In fact, it seems that every time I try to drag
a lass somewhere, she argues. Are they hard to get along
with or *what*?
/* dan: The Anti-Ged, Ignorant Yank (tm) #1, none-%er #7 */
Dan Nitschke -|- Red Brick Systems -|- el...@redbrick.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
They knew we were lying, but they smiled just the same; it seemed
they'd already forgotten we'd came. -- Toad the Wet Sprocket
fry...@mcrcr6.med.nyu.edu
In a previous article, jef...@microsoft.com (Jeff Pack) wrote:
->In article <4rs1v1$o...@engnews1.Eng.Sun.COM>, e...@sparticus.eng.sun.com
->says...
->>
->>In article <4rrvi4$a...@sanjuan.islandnet.com> brcl...@islandnet.com
->(Bruce Clarke) writes:
->>>Lockheed WsmrSmts (Les...@cris.com) wrote:
->>>: There are no pros to chain drive, only cons.
->>>
->>>Weight.
->>
->>Efficiency.
->>
->>Adverse torque reaction.
->>
# [B->>Increased unsprung weight.
->>
->
->I was wodnering when someone would bring this up... :)
->
->Even though I have both Chain and shaft bikes, there are more cons
->to shaft, than chain, just depends on your needs...
OH NO!!!!! I recently bought an old Moto Guzzidactyl because I hate the
endless chain maintenance on my Hondasaurus. I haven't gotten to the shaft
yet since the front brake has been such a nightmare. And I'm getting real
old waiting for parts that have to come from Mother Italy. But the bike
works and it's lots of fun (so far).
. . . I knew I should've bought a Ducaticeratops.
-dave
" . . . never, EVER buy a used bike from a known wingnut, you'll be crying
every time you try to make something work like it's supposed to . . . "
From "Dave's Moto Guzzi Nightmare." Now on videotape.
Sir Loin of Beef
anybody to pay any attention to that, do you?
;-)
Gaye Oliver
feie...@widget.ecn.purdue.edu (John M Feiereisen) wrote:
>In article <4s1k40$1...@pyrman2.mis.pyramid.com>,
>William Corona <wco...@pyrman2.mis.pyramid.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <4s191p$j...@lectura.CS.Arizona.EDU>
>>tro...@CS.Arizona.EDU (Christopher D Troudt) writes:
>
>>>In article <31e3fc6b....@194.52.172.18>,
>>>Jan Egil Sjastad <Jan.S...@microdesign.no> wrote:
>
>>>>What is important to be aware of though (if you like to have some fun)
>>>>is that it is physically impossible to wheelie a shaftdriven bike.
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>SAY WHAT???!!!
>
>>>Got any more of that stuff yer smokin'?
>
>>Can you see it coming, folks?
>
>Every time, Bill. Every time.
>
>I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the more subtle effect shaft-drive
>has on a bike's handling -- the inability to countersteer.
You guys are obviously having the same problem as us, the little
buggers just won't learn.
Golly
UKMC#9
UKMCB#1
Hairstylist, NGG
Gaye Oliver
s...@hopper.unh.edu (Steve Tuttle) wrote:
>a...@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward) wrote:
>
>>|Oh yeah? Oh yeah? How about ENCLOSED Chain drive? Huh? huh? My
>old
>>
>>They dont look sexy :(
>>
>
>Neither do you but that hasn't stopped you from being in love with
>yourself.
Steve, I didn't know you'd been over here and met out leader.
When was this?
Rene Chaddock
In article <sranta-0907...@van-pm-0517.direct.ca>, sra...@macwest.org (Steve Ranta) wrote:
>Of course, if you ride a shaft drive, and you let off the gas in the
>middle of a corner, many things besides oil will start to drop off your
>bike, including probably the rider! That alone is sufficient reason for
>me to stay away from shaft-drive bikes.
>
I do that all the time, no big deal... I guess it depends on the skill of the
driver, eh?
Rene
Gary M. Russell
If you are looking for Moto Guzzi parts, there is a dealer here in
Baldwinsville, who is a friend of mine, that might have the part or be
able to get it. His name is Jim Minonga, Riverside MotoSports,
315-635-6202. He has a lot of parts. Check it out.
--
Syracuse, New York Its where the Fair is.
Gary M. Russell Come ride with us on Tuesday Night
1982 Yamaha 650 Maxim
Once had a BSA 441 Victor Often had a sore leg
TOBY BRANFOOT
David M. Sueme
Steve Ranta (sra...@macwest.org) wrote:
: Of course, if you ride a shaft drive, and you let off the gas in the
: middle of a corner, many things besides oil will start to drop off your
: bike, including probably the rider! That alone is sufficient reason for
: me to stay away from shaft-drive bikes.
I was wondering what all this harp music was about.
It wasn't the shaft drive that killed my R90S, but the cheap-o plastic
Cadilac Seville that ran it over from behind.
If you are a Harley owner don't e-mail me back. The link is down. We're
forging the perfect shaft down here.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
David M. Sueme ...it has not -so far- been possible in the
laboratory to convert a pure saprophyte (1)
ascii: dsu...@ripco.com into an habitual parasite.
(1) If the reader does not understand this word, it is too bad. Hans Zinsser,
_Rats, Lice and History_ (1934), p.41. Dr. Zinsser discovered the typhus "germ".
Mark Kissel
> In article <cc001099-080...@ip178.stamford.ct.interramp.com>,
> cc00...@interramp.com says...
> >Reliability
> >Ease of maint.
> >Cleanliness.
A good O-Ring chain will last years, and many (tens of) thousands of miles. It's also
clean, requiring very little oil, unless you ride on dusty (dirt) roads frequently.
Ease of maintenence??? If I break a chain on the road, I can put in a master link
(always carried) in about 90 seconds to get me home. Once there, 5 minutes to change
to a new chain.
Live Free, Ride Safe....
==========================================
"Did you trade a walk-on part in the war,
For a lead role in a cage?" - R.W.
Mark Kissel
mki...@visuallink.com
==========================================
Dan Nitschke
In article <4sie6d$5...@ns1.visuallink.com>,
Mark Kissel <mki...@visuallink.com> writes:
:: ==========================================
:: "Did you trade a walk-on part in the war,
:: For a lead role in a cage?" - R.W.
:: Mark Kissel
:: mki...@visuallink.com
:: ==========================================
I hate to be the one to tell you this, lad, but the line
is:
"Did you exchange a walk-on part in the war
For a lead role in a cage?"
(at least if, as it appears, you're quoting 'Wish You
Were Here').
My favorite (if overused) line on that album:
"The band is just fantastic
That is really what I think.
Oh, by the way: which one's Pink?"
/* dan: The Anti-Ged, Ignorant Yank (tm) #1, none-%er #7 */
Dan Nitschke - Red Brick Systems - el...@redbrick.com
~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~
I'm not afraid, and I won't lie. As long as I see no wrong,
I won't need to testify. -- The Alan Parsons Project
SteevenB
-->
-->> In article <cc001099-080...@ip178.stamford.ct.interramp.com>,
-->> cc00...@interramp.com says...
-->> >Reliability
-->> >Ease of maint.
-->> >Cleanliness.
-->
>Mark Kissel opines:
-->A good O-Ring chain will last years, and many (tens of) thousands of
miles. It's also
-->clean, requiring very little oil, unless you ride on dusty (dirt) roads
frequently.
-->Ease of maintenence??? If I break a chain on the road, I can put in a
master link
-->(always carried) in about 90 seconds to get me home. Once there, 5
minutes to change
-->to a new chain.
i agree
the road rocket has one
of those o-ring bad boys
firmly tensioned on
its sprockets as we communicate
my scoutmaster would have been proud that ya carry masrter links
"be prepared"
nickelplaterules
--
SteevenB
1986 FXRS-SP 89" S+S Stroker.......the rocket
1994 ST1100......the porpoise