Chump of the Year?
Mark N
Both were totally set up to win the championship, #1 with the dominant
factory in their respective series. Bautista screwed up all year long,
but crashing out of the last two races is the capper. So now he's going
to lose the championship to a guy who scored his first 250 points way
back in 2000 and who has never finished higher than 4th, on a bike that
hasn't been developed in years, or maybe to the heaviest 250 champion in
decades.
Haga now has the ignominious fate of being the rider to lose the largest
points lead ever in WSB, and also lost the lead in the last round by
crashing. To a WSB rookie. On a Japanese mass-production inline four
motorcycle. With the rules written to avoid exactly this sort of thing.
I'll take Bautista, because he has the unmitigated gall to move up to
MotoGP; at least Haga has the decency to stay where he is for yet
another try...
pablo
opposition you also diminish the worth of winning it? Sure Haga came
up short again, but I seem to recall you calling him a pretty decent
rider in the past. Perhaps, just perhaps, WSB knows something you
don't and the Ducati is not oh so otherworldly superior on every
circuit that a kid on a Nintendo Wii could lead it to easy wins...
Here is my version of it: it was an epic championship, with a
brilliantly talented newcomer taking on a very deep and talented
field. And winning it in an epic showdown, with his nerves and speed
holding up - a proof of his amazing worthiness. Did Haga freeze, or
did the Ducati suck this weekend... who knows who cares, this is the
result of 12 months of very hard and very close battling.
All I am trying to say is that if you toned down the Euromed
conspiracy and unworthiness just a tad the occasional wins by
Americans would seem more worth remembering... :-D
MJRydsFast
> Bautista or Haga? You make the call.
>
> Both were totally set up to win the championship, #1 with the dominant
> factory in their respective series. Bautista screwed up all year long,
>
> points lead ever in WSB, and also lost the lead in the last round by
> crashing. To a WSB rookie. On a Japanese mass-production inline four
> motorcycle. With the rules written to avoid exactly this sort of thing.
>
> I'll take Bautista, because he has the unmitigated gall to move up to
> MotoGP; at least Haga has the decency to stay where he is for yet
> another try...
If anyone makes a mark in Moto GP, it isn't going to be Spies nor
Bautista. It will be Samson Simoncelli. He'll crash that satellite
Honda the same way Stoner did- fast and hard.
I can't think of a rookie in any sport that came into a series,
competed at the top level, and became a superstar. What Spies did is
comparable to what Hayden would have done
coming into Moto GP and dominating it in his first year. Spies is to
WSBK what Stoner is to MotoGP- a fast, master of set up. Bautista is
basically Creville- consistent, fast, not THE fastest.
Mark N
> Mark N wrote:
>> Bautista or Haga? You make the call.
>>
>> Both were totally set up to win the championship, #1 with the dominant
>> factory in their respective series. Bautista screwed up all year long,
>>
>> Haga now has the ignominious fate of being the rider to lose the largest
>> points lead ever in WSB, and also lost the lead in the last round by
>> crashing. To a WSB rookie. On a Japanese mass-production inline four
>> motorcycle. With the rules written to avoid exactly this sort of thing.
>>
>> I'll take Bautista, because he has the unmitigated gall to move up to
>> MotoGP; at least Haga has the decency to stay where he is for yet
>> another try...
>
> If anyone makes a mark in Moto GP, it isn't going to be Spies nor
> Bautista. It will be Samson Simoncelli. He'll crash that satellite
> Honda the same way Stoner did- fast and hard.
I can see that, but not necessarily because he has the most talent.
Spies' immediate problem is that he's coming in from the outside, and
with the limitations on testing and practice, that's a huge
disadvantage. He's very fortunate to have had those wildcards last year
and a season in WSB this year, or he'd be in a huge hole. My positive
feelings about Simoncelli are almost all based on the fact that he's
probably the biggest impact rider in 250 in more than two decades, and
that in the current age of midgets. Beyond that, he had almost no
success until last year, and I can hardly rave about the level of his
competition. And it may actually turn out that his size is a bigger
hindrance in MotoGP than it was in 250, given the level of riders there.
> I can't think of a rookie in any sport that came into a series,
> competed at the top level, and became a superstar. What Spies did is
> comparable to what Hayden would have done
> coming into Moto GP and dominating it in his first year. Spies is to
> WSBK what Stoner is to MotoGP- a fast, master of set up. Bautista is
> basically Creville- consistent, fast, not THE fastest.
Bautista has been a GP regular since 2003, and he doesn't have a huge
amount to show for it beyond his 2006 125 title (which is roughly the
equivalent of an AMA SSport championship, give or take). He's no kid
anymore, he turns 25 next month, which means he's only 4 months younger
than Spies, who has an AMA FX championship, 3 AMA SB championships, and
a WSB championship under his belt. And Spies really delivers under
pressure; Bautista appears to do the opposite. Basically all he has
going for himself is a Spanish passport and a tiny frame - which,
ironically, was enough to get him the Suzuki ride that Spies couldn't
get a year earlier. Such is the "thinking" in GP.
As for Spies' accomplishment, it is something to go in and win it in
one's first year in WSB, especially on a Japanese four. But it isn't
like going into MotoGP and doing the same thing, not even close. So do I
think Spies rookie year at age 24/25 in WSB, winning 14 races and the
championship, was worlds better than Hayden's at age 21/22 in MotoGP,
finishing 5th with 2 podiums? No, not really, when you consider their
experience levels at the time. What I remain stuck on is that Spies
didn't really show the kind of results in the AMA as Hayden until he was
at the age Hayden was when he went off to GP. He was obviously a
talented kid, but would I have picked him to be the most successful of
the two back in 2002, or even 2005?
Obviously the main difference has been that Hayden was more thrown in
the deep end, while Spies has had a more gentle grooming. He comes in
with experience AND confidence now, while Hayden just has youthful
exuberance. He also has a more appropriate riding style, but that may be
more of a function of what works in MotoGP now and not what worked in
'03. And maybe he'll have more luck. But I wouldn't bet on Spies really
succeeding in a series which has gone so poorly for Hayden, I don't
think they are all that different. And Spies is actually bigger, which
can't help.
pablo
> ...
> Obviously the main difference has been that Hayden was more thrown in
> the deep end, while Spies has had a more gentle grooming. He comes in
> with experience AND confidence now, while Hayden just has youthful
> exuberance.
How quickly loyalties change! :-) Honestly, I would be surprised if
Spies does much better than, say, Edwards next year (who has had a
good year). Beating the Capirossis and such will be impressive. But
whether he'll be close to the Stoner-Rossi-Lorenzo trio... well, we
can only hope something else mixes that up.
> ... He also has a more appropriate riding style, but that may be
> more of a function of what works in MotoGP ...
I am not sure I believe that. I don't think Hayden, or any other top
rider, is stuck with an old riding style on their old favorite
machine. They evolve quite a lot.
> ... And maybe he'll have more luck. But I wouldn't bet on Spies really
> succeeding in a series which has gone so poorly for Hayden, I don't
> think they are all that different. And Spies is actually bigger, which
> can't help.
Well, roll the dice we shall see. I think Spies season has been
amazing. Which kind of makes me wish he came in with a top tier
machine into MotoGP. On the other hand, perhaps a grooming year would
be a good idea.
Julian Bond
>in a series which has gone so poorly for Hayden
I love this. Winning a World Championship is "gone so poorly".
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Parve
Mark N
> Mark N wrote:
>> ...
>> Obviously the main difference has been that Hayden was more thrown in
>> the deep end, while Spies has had a more gentle grooming. He comes in
>> with experience AND confidence now, while Hayden just has youthful
>> exuberance.
>
> Spies does much better than, say, Edwards next year (who has had a
> good year). Beating the Capirossis and such will be impressive. But
> whether he'll be close to the Stoner-Rossi-Lorenzo trio... well, we
> can only hope something else mixes that up.
Agreed. And I still remain "loyal" to Pedrosa, although it's probably
more loyalty to the notion that Honda will get there. I would be
surprised if he finishes as low as 4th next year. And if he can't run
with the top three consistently, he's probably done at Repsol. So
they'll go after Bautista at the same time Ducati is chasing Rossi, and
maybe Yamaha ends up with Stoner and Spies for 2011.
>> ... He also has a more appropriate riding style, but that may be
>> more of a function of what works in MotoGP ...
>
> I am not sure I believe that. I don't think Hayden, or any other top
> rider, is stuck with an old riding style on their old favorite
> machine. They evolve quite a lot.
Again, agreed, I think there are people out there who have no
appreciation how much Hayden's riding has changed since '03. Or how much
Spies' has, for that matter.
>> ... And maybe he'll have more luck. But I wouldn't bet on Spies really
>> succeeding in a series which has gone so poorly for Hayden, I don't
>> think they are all that different. And Spies is actually bigger, which
>> can't help.
>
> Well, roll the dice we shall see. I think Spies season has been
> amazing. Which kind of makes me wish he came in with a top tier
> machine into MotoGP. On the other hand, perhaps a grooming year would
> be a good idea.
I think it would have been interesting had he gotten the Suzuki seat
this year. Assuming he signed a two-year deal he'd be on the market just
as all the Fab Four will be, which could have been interesting. Now he's
basically insurance for Yamaha, ready to slot in as the factory #2 if
they don't come away with two of the Big (little) Four. But if they do,
he's back at Tech 3 in '11, and then is left wondering about a factory
ride somewhere in '12, and what might that be? I think he could easily
get stuck on the same sort of sidetrack that Hayden, Toseland and
Vermeulen have experienced in MotoGP, not able to get that top seat and
being in a very tenuous position at a lower level. Timing has been very
bad for those guys, but maybe MotoGP will see the light, change the
rules, and in the process make it more friendly for someone like Spies.
We'll see, I'm not holding my breath.
Michael Sierchio
> Mark N <menusbau...@earthlink.net> Sun, 25 Oct 2009 23:13:02
>> in a series which has gone so poorly for Hayden
>
> I love this. Winning a World Championship is "gone so poorly".
Don't you remember? Everyone else crashed that year. People say
the same thing about Schwantz, that he only won the championship
because of Rainey's crash. Which doesn't explain why some *other*
wanker didn't win it, but nebbamind.
sturd
> Bautista or Haga? You make the call.
While both worthy winners, my vote for best brain-ass
inversion is Jorge's spearing of
1. Hayden
and
2. his own chances of taking the fight to El Dottore.
Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.
brafield
said "next year". If Nori was as seamless and ruthless a rider as
Rossi or Spiers, I probably wouldn't watch him! Every time Nori fires
up, we know we are in for some fun. Although I was really gutted by
him not winning his long-deserved title, I still think he is a major
reason people tune in to WSB.
Haga for champ in 2010!
Goodbye mister smoothy Spiers, have a great career somewhere else.
Nitro Nori Haga is our man.
pablo
I would second that!
Julian Bond
>Mark N asks:
>
>> Bautista or Haga? You make the call.
>
>While both worthy winners, my vote for best brain-ass
>inversion is Jorge's spearing of
>
>1. Hayden
>and
>2. his own chances of taking the fight to El Dottore.
- Haga at Coppice, Donington. It bit Bayliss and arguably it cost him
the championship (assuming I've got the years right). I think that crash
was the moment when Haga lost the championship.
- Jorge at Donington. Conditions were very tricky that day. But trying
to brake on the paint on the entrance to Goddards is an unforced error
with no excuses. He's been racing for long enough and has ridden in the
rain enough that that particular error is inexcusable.
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Relieves Chapped Lips
Bruce Hartweg
> Mark N asks:
>
>> Bautista or Haga? You make the call.
>
> While both worthy winners, my vote for best brain-ass
> inversion is Jorge's spearing of
>
> 1. Hayden
> and
> 2. his own chances of taking the fight to El Dottore.
>
Agreed, followed up the next race with a complete team failure to
get you bike on the grid in time. Nice professional stuff that.
bruce