Did Kenny Roberts race a Yamaha 650 Twin?
MOSER650
I would like to know if Kenny Roberts raced a Yamaha 650 Twin bored out to
a 750 for flat track racing. If so where could I find a picture of his
bike? I would also like to know how he did on it, did he beat the Harleys?
Porstec
Yes he did, and no I don`t think he beat the Harley`s on that bike.The
bike was an XS650 punched to 750cc and used a Champion frame. It was yellow
and black of course,fiberglass tank,spool front hub (no brake) with Akront
aluminum rims. It used a compression release for starting/braking aid. He
did beat the Harleys on the same frame(I Think) with the notorius TZ750
in-line four cyclinder two-stroke. He blew em away then of course the rules
changed. Try www.motorcycle.com for vintage archives.
I guess I`m dating myself huh?
Tim Puffett
In article <19970907060...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, Porstec
<por...@aol.com> writes
There has been an article running over recent months in Motorcycle
Mechanics magazine (UK) where they have been rebuilding this bike (or at
least they claim it is).
I have also just found an article in the Jan 1978 Superbike mag where
they cover the bike in detail (nice topless girl in the centrespread
alongside the bike in a hay barn). The bike shown is certainly not
yellow and black but red, white and blue. Only trouble is the article
is not very clear on whether this is an actual KR bike, all the other
pictures are b/w. The TZ700 bike has quite a detailed small article
about it, one of only 5 built in '75, 100bhp at wheel,
300lbs...interesting stuff.
Tim
VTR1000
--
Tim Puffett
Julian Bond
Ah the past.
In those days, the AMA championship included races on mile, 1/2 mile
flat track, TT (flat track with a jump) and road race. I'm pretty sure
KR was champion twice using the XS650/750 for flat track, TZ350/
TZ700/750 for road race and I think an early XT500 for TT. He won many
flat track races against the HD and Ron Woods Nortons.The XS ended up
uncompetitive and the TZ bike was built in response, but it was only
raced in one race before the AMA banned it.
They were a bunch of hard men in them days.
--
Julian Bond mailto:julia...@voidstar.com
Web Services, Mail utilities http://www.voidstar.com
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> Wear Gloves <
Dan Calhoun
You find that Kenny Roberts is the person who reccommended that the bike
should be banned. It was absolutely evil, power and handling. He felt
that somone else would be killed on it. I think its debut and end was at
the St. Louis Mile...
RUSSELL DEAN CRAWFORD
The race that Kenny Roberts won on the TZ was the Indy Mile. He
passed Corky Keener and an 18 year rookie named Jay Springsteen just
before the finish line. Corky later said " I heard that screaming SOB
coming but there was nothing I could do".
Kenny also tried to race the bike at Syracuse NY ( I think ) and San
Jose (I'm sure) but those tracks were too slippery and the XS was
quicker.
Kenny said " They don't pay me enough to ride that thing". The AMA
agreed, also it was only competitive on a mile track at night because
of traction.
Russ Crawford
Peter Hobday
Dan Calhoun (dcal...@calweb.com) writes:
> You find that Kenny Roberts is the person who reccommended that the bike
> should be banned. It was absolutely evil, power and handling. He felt
> that somone else would be killed on it. I think its debut and end was at
> the St. Louis Mile...
The only reason that KR would have wanted a 650 twin banned was because it
was under-powered - we're not talking about the TZ here.
BTW, KR used the 650 for TT's too.
Peter
Dan Calhoun
KR raced a Shell Thuett, prepared750 on the mile tracks. It was a worked
over 650 twin. The Schwerma framed TZ is the bike that Kenny felt it
should be banned...
nic...@unitrode.com
In article <19970907021...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
He most certainly did. . .and did well. He did beat the Harley's at
first, but as the XR-750's developed, the Yamaha (and British twins)
became less competative, even with Kenny aboard. As for pics, look for
mid-70's magazines, such as Cycle News, Cycle World, Motorcyclist, Cycle
and Cycle Guide (boy, I guess I really am a geezer if I remember Cycle
Guide. . .). James
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Walter Barlow
In addition to all the aforementioned--- let's not forget that there was
another rider who rode the TZ700 tracker- Steve Baker. They didn't pay
him enough to ride it either. Just an additional bit of trivia.
regards,
Walter Barlow
Dean Adams
It's sitting in his workshop in Banbury, UK. I can probably rustle up a
scan for you if you need it.
MOSER650 <mose...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970907021...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
Peter Hobday
Walter Barlow (PKS...@prodigy.com) writes:
> In addition to all the aforementioned--- let's not forget that there was
> another rider who rode the TZ700 tracker- Steve Baker. They didn't pay
> him enough to ride it either. Just an additional bit of trivia.
>
Here goes the memory......
I think there were 4 TZ riders; KR, SB, Gary Hocking and Skip Askland. I
also remember that Yvon DuHamel was the 1st 2-stroke rider on the mile
with his Trevor Deeley 350 Yamaha Twin (crashed and burnt in its 1st race
I think against Black Bart Markel).
As well, there was another nutcase who rode a 500 Kawasaki triple but I
can't remember the name. Anybody????
Peter
RUSSELL DEAN CRAWFORD
>I think there were 4 TZ riders; KR, SB, Gary Hocking and Skip Askland.
I
>also remember that Yvon DuHamel was the 1st 2-stroke rider on the mile
>with his Trevor Deeley 350 Yamaha Twin (crashed and burnt in its 1st
race
>I think against Black Bart Markel).
>
>As well, there was another nutcase who rode a 500 Kawasaki triple but
I
>can't remember the name. Anybody????
>
>Peter
RICK Hocking. Or is Rick just a nick name.
Bryan Hinkle
Peter Hobday (as...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
: I think there were 4 TZ riders; KR, SB, Gary Hocking and Skip Askland. I
: Peter
That was Don Castro and it was a KR750 motored bike ,I believe
the frame was by C and J........also are you sure that it was Gary Hocking
and not Rick Hocking ( r.e. the TZ).
I just sold an ex Chuck Palmgren ( remember #38?) Champion framed
Shell motored street legal one ,mainly to finish the Trackmaster framed
one with all the goodies i.e. M-1 r fork Kosmans with grimecas( TT setup)
Kosman wheels ( Barnes hubs) etc etc along with the Zanotti motor I've got
in pieces that Steve Eklund ran for lots of miles.
As for KR ,I well remember his feet on the pegs slides at S.J. ,Sacto
and I remember his aggressiveness at Ascot ( may the girl R.I.P. under the
damn condos or whatever they built on top of her)..........
B.
Frank Hughes
MOSER650 wrote:
> I would like to know if Kenny Roberts raced a Yamaha 650 Twin bored
> out to
> a 750 for flat track racing. If so where could I find a picture of
> his
> bike? I would also like to know how he did on it, did he beat the
> Harleys?
I think he tried it in the 70's, but I think they could not get it to
survive all the laps of a full feature race, much less practice...
Somewhere around here I have an old copy of CYCLE with info about it. In
the same era, KR also rode a TZ750 converted to flat track. He won some
on it, but was quoted "They don't pay me enough to ride that thing..."
Frank
Bryan Hinkle
Frank Hughes (defau...@domain.com) wrote:
: I think he tried it in the 70's, but I think they could not get it to
' Tried"??????????? I guess that it was a figment of my imagination 'eh
when I watched KR at several different venues on Yam twins? I guess he
never won the national #1 plate using such a bike 'eh?
: survive all the laps of a full feature race, much less practice...
See above............
: Somewhere around here I have an old copy of CYCLE with info about it. In
Best begin to look in your old mags at race results again......
: the same era, KR also rode a TZ750 converted to flat track. He won some
: on it, but was quoted "They don't pay me enough to ride that thing..."
No he won back to back Indy miles and he won them based on acceleration
down the straights ,shortly after the bike was banned and there were some
rule changes that shifted the towards H/Ds favor.
B.
M. Grismore
>
> Peter
> Other "nuts" on two stroke triples include Gary Nixon on an Erv Kanemoto
Kawasaki , Mark Brelsford's little brother Scott did time on this
Championed framed dirt tracker also. Here in Ohio dirt track legend Ronnie
Rall raced a Suzuki two stroke triple built by Gary Stolzenberg and Edgar
Fuhr. Ronnie skidded his way around slippery pea gravel tracks on this
beast! A seventeen year-old kid named Steve Morehead got a chance on the
thing at the '73 Greenville half-mile. Steve was busy running away with the
Junior main event when his ill tempered mount spit him off and over the
third turn fence. Steve caught a knee on the top of the fence post on the
way over and sustained the most serious injury of his career.
Julian Bond
"M. Grismore" <gris...@brutus.bright.net> wrote
Bike magazine last month had an article on a bizarre variation of Flat
Track where they race the same bikes on asphalt ovals. Seems like a
Honda NSR500 with no fairing and high bars would be ideal for this sort
of thing.
Or is that missing the point :)
--
Julian Bond mailto:julia...@voidstar.com
Web Services, Mail utilities http://www.voidstar.com
CN250/Helix/FF info & mailing list http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk
> Redeem At Any Food, Drug Or Discount Store <
M. Grismore
If anyone is still interested in this thread check out 2-stroke triples at
http://www.angelfire.com/oh/dirttrackreport.html
M. Grismore
M. Grismore <gr...@wcoil.com> wrote in article
<5viaui$fg4$0...@208.10.2.138>...
>
> If anyone is still interested in this thread check out 2-stroke triples
at
> http://www.angelfire.com/oh/dirttrackreport.html
> Better yet try this
http://www.angelfire.com/oh/dirttrackreport/index.html
P.S. I can't believe your still interested in this thread.
TGailZX11
Are you kidding ??? Kenny Roberts not only beat the Harleys but he beat
everything and anything they could throw at him. He won the #1 plate more
than once and even raced a TZ700 bolted into a flat track frame at Indy (I
believe he won). Do you think he got the nick name King Kenny just road
racing? The Yamaha was not ideal for flat track (its flywheels were too
light). He also raced using the number 80y and 80, those would be the cool
pictures!!!
Dan Calhoun
Now if you really want to go back Kenny raced an X6 suzuki at
shorttracks as well as his AS100 in Northern Ca. I have pictures of his
ASCOT 1/2 MILER an X6 in a SonicWeld Frame. When he was 13-15 he looked
like a flag on the handlebars of the X6.
STholl
>felt it
>should be banned..
The only reason Roberts made that remark was because he did not want to
have to race against a full field of then, not because he thought it was
overly dangerous.
Bob Riebe
Ray Curry
In article <19970922023...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, sth...@aol.com
(STholl) wrote:
And the result of the banning was that a variety of wonderful engines were
also canned like triple 4 strokes. There was an experimental Kawasaki
triple two stroke that seemed a little more tractable but without the max
power of the TZ motor. In any case, Champion Frame indicated a lot of
disappointment because they felt there was much to learn from frame
technology and the AMA was banning the first attempt. They, Champion,
felt they could learn to handle the power and make for some really
exciting racing. Roberts on the other hand often has spoken quickly
without taking into account the impact his words have. My own feeling is
that the Harley camp comments were the real determining factor for the
AMA. "If they allow those things, everyone will have to have one." The sad
thing is that the AMA could have had the "Big Bang" motors years before
the 500 GP because dirt track racing depends more on "getting the power to
the ground".
Bryan Hinkle
Ray Curry (ra...@macconnect.com) wrote:
: And the result of the banning was that a variety of wonderful engines were
: also canned like triple 4 strokes. There was an experimental Kawasaki
: triple two stroke that seemed a little more tractable but without the max
: power of the TZ motor. In any case, Champion Frame indicated a lot of
: disappointment because they felt there was much to learn from frame
: technology and the AMA was banning the first attempt. They, Champion,
: felt they could learn to handle the power and make for some really
: exciting racing. Roberts on the other hand often has spoken quickly
: without taking into account the impact his words have. My own feeling is
: that the Harley camp comments were the real determining factor for the
: AMA. "If they allow those things, everyone will have to have one." The sad
: thing is that the AMA could have had the "Big Bang" motors years before
: the 500 GP because dirt track racing depends more on "getting the power to
: the ground".
that affects Class C. The competition from the 2-strokes and other
manufacters would have been good for the sport. Nowadays it's
just a "spec" class for the XR750s and has been since Honda pulled
out in the '80s. Now flat track is in real trouble.
Anyone else recall the bike yamaha built in the early '80s around
a Virago motor converted to chain. Ran across some pictures of it that
I took at the S.J. mile years ago ,that was the year that Honda came
in and ran the bike they built from a CX500 turned sideways and bored
stroked etc........
B.
Peter Hobday
Bryan Hinkle (blue...@netcom.com) writes:
> Ray Curry (ra...@macconnect.com) wrote:
>
> : And the result of the banning was that a variety of wonderful engines were
> : also canned like triple 4 strokes. There was an experimental Kawasaki
> : triple two stroke that seemed a little more tractable but without the max
> : power of the TZ motor. In any case, Champion Frame indicated a lot of
Thee greatest picture in motorcycle racing (IMHO) is one of Gary Nixon in
mid-crash on a Triumph 750 triple miler. Nixon, possibly one of the
greatest racers ever, is shown low-siding the bike WITH BOTH FEET STILL ON
THE PEGS.
I recall an interesting anecdote about Nixon overcoming his fear of
road-racing in the wet. Apparently he and a Triumph manager (Cliff
Guild? - anybody remember), un-trailered 2 500 Triumph Daytona's ON
THE
WAY TO A RACE, and rode through the rain on the windy public highways.
This experience taught Nixon how to be smooth and fast at the same time.
I think they were headed to Laconia.
> : AMA. "If they allow those things, everyone will have to have one." The sad
> : thing is that the AMA could have had the "Big Bang" motors years before
> : the 500 GP because dirt track racing depends more on "getting the power to
> : the ground".
I always thought that Roberts found the bikes too dangerous (too fast with
too-sudden power) and too ugly in the style required to race them. I
think I remember him saying in disgust that miles would turn into "drag
races on the straights followed by hammering on the brake and gliding
through the corners" (or something to that effect).
> Anyone else recall the bike yamaha built in the early '80s around
> a Virago motor converted to chain. Ran across some pictures of it that
> I took at the S.J. mile years ago ,that was the year that Honda came
> in and ran the bike they built from a CX500 turned sideways and bored
> stroked etc........
Yep, that was when there was fun in AMA racing. All sorts of people
running all varieties of equipment on the road and in the dirt. I believe
the CX also had to be chain-converteed, but I may be wrong.
BTW, I think HD was the first company I can recall running Big Bang
engines. I remember Bart Markel used to run a "twingle" in the early 60's
(yes, some of us were standing along the rails back then). The twin was
set to fire both cylinders simultaneously - you can imagine what the "HD
Sound" could have evolved to if it was successful!
Peter
Bryan Hinkle
Peter Hobday (as...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
: Thee greatest picture in motorcycle racing (IMHO) is one of Gary Nixon in
: mid-crash on a Triumph 750 triple miler. Nixon, possibly one of the
: greatest racers ever, is shown low-siding the bike WITH BOTH FEET STILL ON
: THE PEGS.
Hows about the picture of Rex Beauchamp ( remember him) at Louisville
FULL locl so far sideways that if he was any farther sideways he'd be
going backwards? Or the one of Tanner and Al Guenther Ascot where Tanners
bars are literally resting on Guenthers legs and A.G.s elbow is quite
clearly stuck deep into the Flying Fleas ribs.........ahhhh Ascot may
she R.I.P...........
: I recall an interesting anecdote about Nixon overcoming his fear of
: road-racing in the wet. Apparently he and a Triumph manager (Cliff
: Guild? - anybody remember), un-trailered 2 500 Triumph Daytona's ON
: THE
: WAY TO A RACE, and rode through the rain on the windy public highways.
: This experience taught Nixon how to be smooth and fast at the same time.
: I think they were headed to Laconia.
For many .many years Nixon was the American racers epitome of true grit.
: I always thought that Roberts found the bikes too dangerous (too fast with
: too-sudden power) and too ugly in the style required to race them. I
: think I remember him saying in disgust that miles would turn into "drag
: races on the straights followed by hammering on the brake and gliding
: through the corners" (or something to that effect).
He might have been correct ,but I doubt it ,it's a shame we never
got the chance to find out.
: > Anyone else recall the bike yamaha built in the early '80s around
: > a Virago motor converted to chain. Ran across some pictures of it that
: > I took at the S.J. mile years ago ,that was the year that Honda came
: > in and ran the bike they built from a CX500 turned sideways and bored
: > stroked etc........
: Yep, that was when there was fun in AMA racing. All sorts of people
: running all varieties of equipment on the road and in the dirt. I believe
: the CX also had to be chain-converteed, but I may be wrong.
Yup, they whacked the proginal trans off and chain converted the thing
it actually ran pretty well for a first effort.
: BTW, I think HD was the first company I can recall running Big Bang
: engines. I remember Bart Markel used to run a "twingle" in the early 60's
: (yes, some of us were standing along the rails back then). The twin was
: set to fire both cylinders simultaneously - you can imagine what the "HD
: Sound" could have evolved to if it was successful!
: Peter
Black Bart ran that motor a few times as did a few other people
the concept wasn't real new even then.............say by any chance do
you remember Mark Brelsford ,or if you liked pavement do you by any
chance rmember Cal Rayborn ,what a shame he was killed at some obscene
little track in N.Z. right on the cusp of what might have been his biggest
season yet. ironically the only poster I have of him is a dirttrack poster
which is not primarily what he was known for.
I'll willingly bet that you might remember those beautiful ,spidery
looking Red Nortons built by Ron Woods that Alex Jorgenson hammered
away at the Harleys with ( especially at San Jose and Sacramento).
B.
Steve Wassenich
Bryan Hinkle <blue...@netcom.com> wrote:
:
: a Virago motor converted to chain. Ran across some pictures of it that
: I took at the S.J. mile years ago ,that was the year that Honda came
: in and ran the bike they built from a CX500 turned sideways and bored
: stroked etc........
For some reason I recall that the original 750 Virago had a lug at the
lower front of the engine which wasn't used. Rumor was that Mert Lawwill
had talked Yamaha into putting it on there so the Virago engine could be
used in a dirt-track frame, so the magazines started calling it the
"Lawwill Lug." It's a pity the engine wasn't developed much. The Harleys
needed, and still need, some real competition.
One of these days I'm going to get around to putting together a
K.R.-replica Yam 650. There's just something about the elemental nature
of a dirt tracker that makes my motor run.
Later,
Steve W.
Kettering OH USA
Bryan Hinkle
Steve Wassenich (wass...@dma.org) wrote:
: For some reason I recall that the original 750 Virago had a lug at the
: lower front of the engine which wasn't used. Rumor was that Mert Lawwill
: had talked Yamaha into putting it on there so the Virago engine could be
: used in a dirt-track frame, so the magazines started calling it the
: "Lawwill Lug." It's a pity the engine wasn't developed much. The Harleys
: needed, and still need, some real competition.
That's what's killing Class C ,it's an H/D "spec" class almost.
: One of these days I'm going to get around to putting together a
: K.R.-replica Yam 650. There's just something about the elemental nature
: of a dirt tracker that makes my motor run.
Just sold an ex Chuck Palmgren Champion framed Shell motored one to
try and finish the Trackmaster framed one I'm working on. It's actually
set up quite nicely and already street licensed. I've also got a Zanotti
mile motor ( in pieces) that Eklund ( R.I.P.) used.
Be sure you want a KR replica though ,that damn yellow stands out like
sore thumb......"ticket me ,ticket me"......
B.
: Later,