Not a joke: Some Taxing Thoughts

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Greasy Rider

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Mar 14, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/14/99
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SOME TAXING THOUGHTS......

The Gettysburg address is 269 words, the Declaration of
Independence is 1,337 words, and the Holy Bible is only 773,000
words. However, the tax law has grown from 11,400 words in 1913, to 7
million words today.

There are at least 480 different tax forms, each with many pages
of instructions. Even the easiest form, the 1040E has 33 pages in
instructions, and all in fine print.

The IRS sends out 8 billion pages of forms and instructions each
year. Laid end to end, they would stretch 28 times around the earth.

Nearly 300,000 trees are cut down yearly to produce the paper for
all the IRS forms and instructions.

American taxpayers spend $200 billion and 5.4 billion hours
working to comply with federal taxes each year, more than it takes to
produce every car, truck, and van in the United States.

The burden of compliance is the equivalent to a staff of 3 million
people working full time for a year, just to comply with the taxes on
individuals and businesses.

The IRS employs 114,000 people; that's twice as many as the CIA
and five times more than the FBI.

60% of taxpayers must hire a professional to get through their own
return.

Taxes eat up 38.2% of the average family's income; that's more
than for food, clothing and shelter combined.

AND THAT IS ONLY THE FEDERAL TAX---NOT COUNTING STATE, LOCAL,
PROPERTY, SALES TAX, ETC.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
IRS official slogan: We've got what it takes to take what you've got.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Remember, Taxes are due April 15th-the same day the Titanic sank.


Ride Safe!

Greasy Rider

"It isn't the destination; it's the journey."

http://personal.rdu.bellsouth.net/rdu/w/b/wbarham/index.htm


Lsddidme

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Mar 14, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/14/99
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Greasy Rider wrote:>SOME TAXING THOUGHTS...

Ever wonder how many times the same dollar gets taxed?

Greasy Rider

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Mar 14, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/14/99
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On 14 Mar 1999 23:47:26 GMT, lsdd...@aol.com (Lsddidme) wrote:

>Greasy Rider wrote:>SOME TAXING THOUGHTS...
>
>Ever wonder how many times the same dollar gets taxed?

I'd be afraid to contemplate that!
Each year some one publishes a table that shows when in the year that
we stop paying taxes and the money starts being ours. Seems to me the
last date I heard was every dollar made from 1-1-98 thru 5-16-98 went
to taxes. I think the only cure is a national sales tax. The IRS is
way too big and powerful....uh....wonder if anyone there rides
Harleys? Worse yet, Hondas? Damn, I love those beautiful and
intelligent folks at the IRS......I'm quitting before the audit!

Len Bradner

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Mar 15, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/15/99
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Uh, Greasy,, (looking around the bar) that's a lot of numbers,,,, numbers
make me thirsty,,, it's been a while,, if you get this round maybe after I
get my tax check I'll by the next round....

LennyB
'99 FXD

Greasy Rider wrote:

Paulie (gooofing off at work)

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Mar 15, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/15/99
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Len Bradner wrote:

Did you ever notice how happy everyone is to get the money that they earned
back from the federal government after months without interest? If I tried
this with a bank I would go to jail.

Paulie
--
1996 Softail frame with lotsa pieces
(before I die)
1980 FLT with 1988 drivetrain and over 60 lights
(don't ask, bought it this way)
"Stupid people are hard to kill." my wife's comment based true
experience.
web site "http://www.mindspring.com/~pprance"

TAXMANHOG

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Mar 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/16/99
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:::The IRS Mission
:::
:::Provide America's taxpayers top quality service by helping :::them
understand and meet their tax responsibilities and by :::applying the tax law
with integrity and fairness to all.

YES There are IRS employees who Ride Harleys, several that I know of, are
regular hard working Joes & Janes, the same as many people in the general
public.

see my web page, as noted in the signature area


>>regarding

>>Greasy Rider wrote:>SOME TAXING THOUGHTS...

snip


>> IRS official slogan: We've got what it takes to take what >>you've got.

snip


>>The IRS is way too big and powerful....uh....wonder if >>anyone there>rides
Harleys?


personal page
http://members.aol.com/taxmanhog/main.html

Ears

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Mar 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/18/99
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On Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:51:10 -0600, Paulie (gooofing off at work)
<ppr...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>Did you ever notice how happy everyone is to get the money that they earned
>back from the federal government after months without interest? If I tried
>this with a bank I would go to jail.

Try not to hate me. I am a service connected veteran, 100%. I don't pay
property or income tax at all. I have to pay for Ambulance and fire here,
about 100 bux a year. man, am I getting screwed. I think the official
average is about 3 months out of the year, working for Uncle fedster.
But the biggest problem we are having is paying off the deficit, and the
national Debt. Sounds like a lot of money, but roughly, it adds up to be
about 10,000 dollars for every man, woman, and child here. Once that is
payed off, and the Govt. is done downsizing, then maybe a flat tax wouldn't
be unreasonable. Until that point in time, think about how much a flat tax
would cost all of us. If someone has the figures on that, I'd like to see them.


--
*Ears* 98 XL 1200 Custom
kd4...@amsat.org
http://www.dialisdn.net/user/cdlevin

Murray

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Mar 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/19/99
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> IRS official slogan: We've got what it takes to take what you've got.
>

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Remember, Taxes are due April 15th-the same day the Titanic sank.
>
>
>Ride Safe!
>
>Greasy Rider
>
>"It isn't the destination; it's the journey."
>
>http://personal.rdu.bellsouth.net/rdu/w/b/wbarham/index.htm
>


And Big Government just hates the underground economy.
I'll pull your teeth, you overhaul my transmission.
Now if a flat tax or consumption tax were instituted at least 200,000
trees would remain, a good percentage of the 114,000 people would have
to secure real productive jobs, Block Brothers would have to disband,
Govt. printers & bean counters would have to compete in the real world
of economics.

Solution: Support your local underground economy.


Tom Barrett

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Mar 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/19/99
to
Hi taxmanhog,

You're a long way from m.t.m.! (which is where I've seen your
screen name before). This is the cyberspace version of a biker
bar. As you may know, some ng's are moderated, some have a FAQ, etc.
This ng has a FAQ, here's a link:

http://home.earthlink.net/~mildness/yo/frames/faqv2frm.html

The topics here do vary widely, but I have no interest in the turn
being taken by this thread. (I think you might be more persuasive
if you could quantify how much higher US tax rates are, to make up
the shortfall caused by the underground economy). I'd much prefer
to read posts about motorcycles and Harleys in this ng. JMHO.

However, in the interest of providing on topic content for this ng,
I've got some questions for you, related to taxpayer conduct. There
are several business owners here, and this may be useful to them.

A long while back, I recall hearing about a court case brought by
IRS against a taxpayer for unreported income. The case was based
on a book by X. Hollander, titled "The Happy Hooker". The book was
clearly listed as "Non-fiction". An enthusiastic IRS revenue agent
read the book, which listed number of tricks, er...services, and
dollar amounts per day/week, etc. Well, the agent got to doing
some figuring, and pulled Ms. Hollanders tax returns, and -long story
short- there was basis for a case. (I do not have cites, FWIW)

Question: do IRS agents really find tax fraud while doing something
simple like reading a book? Or a newgroup? Or on point to this ng,
if bartering were dicussed here, would it be basis for investigation?

Question: there was a tax professor that used to say something about
overstated expenses are a misdemeanor, understated income is a felony.
True?

Question: how do you have time for this stuff? I mean isn't there
a "busy season" on your side of the fence? <g>

Question: am I gonna get audited?

Seriously: ride safe. Read the FAQ. Take care.

TAXMANHOG wrote:
>
> What your saying is no tax system meets your standards, and that no one should

<snip>

> personal page
> http://members.aol.com/taxmanhog/main.html


--
Barrett

Spam is rem'ed out of my email. Delete as needed.
'97 Ultra. the grasshopper

Tom Barrett

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Mar 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/19/99
to
Steph Greenberg wrote:
>
> TAXMANHOG <taxm...@aol.com> wrote:
> : BARTER ECONOMY is subject taxation under our tax laws, willfull failure to
> : report the income derived in such a system is TAX FRAUD, (a criminal offense).
>
> However, there is one way to deal with it. The government cannot determine
> a discounted price. You can each agree to pay each other a plausibly
> discounted amount that is far below the actual value of your services.

'plausibly discounted'...'far below the actual value'


"...there's nobody on board but the...."

- (#82?)

TAXMANHOG

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Mar 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/20/99
to
What your saying is no tax system meets your standards, and that no one should
have to pay for anything that society benefits from by mutual burden (TAXES),
BARTER ECONOMY is subject taxation under our tax laws, willfull failure to
report the income derived in such a system is TAX FRAUD, (a criminal offense).

PS: small government also looks unkindley to people in the "UNDERGROUND
ECONOMY"


REGARDING:
> m...@oberon.ark.com (Murray)

>And Big Government just hates the underground economy.
>I'll pull your teeth, you overhaul my transmission.
>Now if a flat tax or consumption tax were instituted at least 200,000
>trees would remain, a good percentage of the 114,000 people would have
>to secure real productive jobs, Block Brothers would have to disband,
>Govt. printers & bean counters would have to compete in the real world
>of economics.
>
>Solution: Support your local underground economy.
>
>


personal page
http://members.aol.com/taxmanhog/main.html

Steph Greenberg

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Mar 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/20/99
to
TAXMANHOG <taxm...@aol.com> wrote:
: What your saying is no tax system meets your standards, and that no one should

: have to pay for anything that society benefits from by mutual burden (TAXES),
: BARTER ECONOMY is subject taxation under our tax laws, willfull failure to
: report the income derived in such a system is TAX FRAUD, (a criminal offense).

However, there is one way to deal with it. The government cannot determine


a discounted price. You can each agree to pay each other a plausibly
discounted amount that is far below the actual value of your services.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steph Greenberg
98 FXD Sooner or later, every tool gets used as a hammer.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steph Greenberg

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Mar 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/20/99
to
In article <36F31E...@remerols.com> you wrote:

: Steph Greenberg wrote:
: >
: > TAXMANHOG <taxm...@aol.com> wrote:
: > : BARTER ECONOMY is subject taxation under our tax laws, willfull failure to

: > : report the income derived in such a system is TAX FRAUD, (a criminal offense).
: >
: > However, there is one way to deal with it. The government cannot determine
: > a discounted price. You can each agree to pay each other a plausibly
: > discounted amount that is far below the actual value of your services.

: 'plausibly discounted'...'far below the actual value'

Labor law does not require that minimum wage be charged for an independent
contractor, so long as the contractor can come and go as they please and take
on other clients.

For example, I can do an animated short and get far below minimum wage for it
if that's what I choose to charge, certainly less than the going rate for my
labors. In fact I have.

So too, a $2000 charge can be discounted down to $50. Hence if the two parties
involved exchange $50 for a net exchange of zero, it would be nigh impossible
for the government to prosecute. Moreover, a smart accountant at the end of
the year could still take off all of the business expenses as a loss, because
the government really can't determine what is a fair market price for
services.

As an example, the company that did the effects for Titanic did so at an
enormous loss. They've incurred a loss on numerous projects. Can the
IRS step up to the plate and accuse them of charging below the value of their
services? I don't think so.

But if you show a pattern of charging nothing at all, that's another problem.
Participating in a "discount services organization" would be hard, if not
impossible, to nail on any existing law, but participating in a "zero cost
services organization" is, evidently.

Hemipower

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Mar 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/20/99
to
In article <19990319211559...@ng-fy1.aol.com>, taxm...@aol.com
(TAXMANHOG) writes:

>BARTER ECONOMY is subject taxation under our tax laws, willfull failure to
>report the income derived in such a system is TAX FRAUD, (a criminal
>offense).

oooooohhhhhhhh I'm sooooo scared. Just like I get when
I see the F.B.I warnings about video copying.

>PS: small government also looks unkindley to people in the "UNDERGROUND
>ECONOMY"
>

And *I* look unkindly to the people in the govment.
So I guess it is a mexican standoff.Lets see who blinks.

Hemipower
DTSS #1
Stroker ACE.

"No, Homer, very few cartoons are broadcast live. It's a
terrible strain on the illustrator's wrist."

"Failure Is Only The Opportunity To More Intelligently Begin
Again"- Henry Ford


Tom Barrett

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Mar 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/20/99
to
Apologies to rmh for my involvement in this now o/t thread.

> : > TAXMANHOG <taxm...@aol.com> wrote:
> : > : BARTER ECONOMY is subject taxation under our tax laws, willfull failure
<snip>

> : Steph Greenberg wrote:
> : > However, there is one way to deal with it. The government cannot determine
> : > a discounted price. You can each agree to pay each other a plausibly
> : > discounted amount that is far below the actual value of your services.

<snip>

Barrett:


> : 'plausibly discounted'...'far below the actual value'


Steph Greenberg wrote:

<A whole bunch of stuff, which I snipped.>

Steph, I read your comments. We are now way O/T, and I will be
glad to continue this elsewhere. Email is ok, but I suggest the
following newsgroup:

news:misc.taxes.moderated
which will probably generate a lot of good discussion. I
think that at this point in tax season, the reasoning displayed in
your post will be like chum in the waters. LOL. This actually
could be very funny; watching you (innocently?) torment the plastic-
pocket-protector folks, who are now low on sleep, patience, etc.
I presume your 'reasoning' was innocent.

One comment here, though. If you simply want to exercise the
persuasive argument style of writing, desperately clinging to a
thesis at all costs, eventually throwing out _all_ logic and
reason in defense of a belief, then I have little interest. If
you want a better understanding of the operation of US tax law,
and how it may relate to our individual and business situations,
then I will gladly take time to explain relevant definitions, tax
concepts, and my understanding of application of the law.

Let me know, on this thread, or by email. If you want to use
m.t.m., I'll copy your post over there, with my response.
Look for heading 'Barter Transactions'. M.t.m. gets one of
those threads about as often as r.m.h. gets an oil thread.
(coincidence, conspiracy?!)

Take care.

TAXMANHOG

unread,
Mar 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM3/24/99
to
>From: Tom Barrett <tb...@remerols.com>

>
>Hi taxmanhog,
>
>You're a long way from m.t.m.! (which is where I've seen your
>screen name before). This is the cyberspace version of a biker
>bar. As you may know, some ng's are moderated, some have a FAQ, etc.

Greetings Tom, Yes I am a long way from (M.T.M.), But Harley's are also an
interest to me, soley for the pleasure of the ride and the company of good
people who also enjoy the ride! Hence my interest in the discussions W/I this
ng are mostly to learn more about my bike, and to expand my pleasure &
relaxation. It is NOT my intent to perform official duties, (thats work) and
i read this and other NG's, on my own time, my own PC, my own ISP bill. I
have been lerking here for some time and have had the opportunity to exchange
posted & email discussion of a more casual nature (on-topic)!

=====================================


>The topics here do vary widely, but I have no interest in the turn
>being taken by this thread. (I think you might be more persuasive
>if you could quantify how much higher US tax rates are, to make up
>the shortfall caused by the underground economy). I'd much prefer
>to read posts about motorcycles and Harleys in this ng. JMHO.

I personally do not have the exact figures your looking for BUT the IRS wed
site does have a section (Statistics Of Income) aka SOI. this is a perfect
place for those who are tickled by such statistics to GET OFF.
When I see a posting that originate w/i this ng that appears to incite
irrational sentiment against our economy and tax structure, It Pisses me
off!!!!
I can not agree more that the sentiments of the original post belong in MTM,
along with the subsequent exchanges.
=====================================

>However, in the interest of providing on topic content for this ng,
>I've got some questions for you, related to taxpayer conduct. There
>are several business owners here, and this may be useful to them.
>
>A long while back, I recall hearing about a court case brought by
>IRS against a taxpayer for unreported income. The case was based
>on a book by X. Hollander, titled "The Happy Hooker". The book was
>clearly listed as "Non-fiction". An enthusiastic IRS revenue agent
>read the book, which listed number of tricks, er...services, and
>dollar amounts per day/week, etc. Well, the agent got to doing
>some figuring, and pulled Ms. Hollanders tax returns, and -long story
>short- there was basis for a case. (I do not have cites, FWIW)
>
>Question: do IRS agents really find tax fraud while doing something
>simple like reading a book?

No,
A lot more investigation of solid facts, involving real people is required. BUT
it is possible that:

A Special Agent (criminal investigator), might look further based on the
apparent leads found in a public forum such as this and have a case refered for
potential assignment and an OFFICIAL investigation would comence.

A Revenue Agent (auditor, may do the same in similar market segment audit
techniques)

A Revenue Officer, what I do for a living: (collector, could use information
to better understand & constructively negotiate a resolution to a collection
case, 53's I/A's OIC's TFRP's
For those non-accounting people [[unable to pay, Payment Agreements,
Settlement for less than Full Payment, Responsible corporate and other officers
in non-payment of 941 taxes.]]

=========================================


Or a newgroup? Or on point to this ng,
>if bartering were dicussed here, would it be basis for investigation?

Possibly, but who knows if anything would ever come of it,

=========================================


>Question: there was a tax professor that used to say something about
>overstated expenses are a misdemeanor, understated income is a felony.
>True?

I am Not sure that is accurate, I have seen news postings of convictions for
failure to report, and overstated deductions, misclassification of basis,
employee status, . and also for failure to file a return, some are Fenony some
are Misdemeanor
Most of my time at work is looking for ways to resolve cases equitably, not to
put people in JAIL.
So i have to admitt I am not an EXPERT at putting people in jail that is the
job of a S.A.

========================================


>
>Question: how do you have time for this stuff? I mean isn't there
>a "busy season" on your side of the fence? <g>
>

I do make time in the inclement season here in the NORTH EAST, to read and
respond to NG postings here and on the other side (MTM)

I would love to be riding and will do so soon, warming up! :-))))

The "busy season" does not involve or impact my work, knocking on doors asking
for money is a year round function
=======================================

>Question: am I gonna get audited?

NOT BY ME! but you never know ;-))

=========================================

>Seriously: ride safe. Read the FAQ. Take care.

>Barrett

Thanks,
I did read the FAQand hope I have not burdened those who moderate the NG with
my o/t blathering,
ps ( do not have a pocket protector)

TAXMANHOG

PS: this post can be the end to the string unless others are interested in
posting me VIA EMAIL

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