Harley-Davidson stock up over 8% today.
walt tonne
"Wow - the J~E~W~S are running with this. Harley couldn't sell a
motorcycle to a Hells Angel. Their business model is dead. This turd
is only up because the H~E~B~R~E~W that control 90% of the stock.
You're all gonna get burned "
It may be a time-proven manipulation. Is there any outstanding news
from HD?
sean_q
> Copied this from Yahoo Finance message board for Harley-Davidson
>
>
> "Wow - the J~E~W~S are running with this.
If that were true, wouldn't the MoCo be called "Harley Ben-David"?
SQ
Datesfat Chicks
news:a530c891-02fa-4d45...@d17g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
So every time a stock price gaps up, it is a Jewish conspiracy?
I've heard -- and this is just rumor -- that some stocks actually increase
in price due to favorable earnings reports or to a more favorable outlook.
DF
Bob Myers
Bob M.
Datesfat Chicks
news:i8iml6$vhi$1...@usenet01.boi.hp.com...
No, Walt isn't in his own world, and that is a problem.
Here are some incidents involving Walt and friends crossing into our world:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ5X4IDNJ2k
DF
Vito
| No, Walt isn't in his own world, and that is a problem.
|
| Here are some incidents involving Walt and friends crossing into our
world:
|
| http://tinyurl.com/22lpgpm
|
| http://tinyurl.com/28ugfy
|
| http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ5X4IDNJ2k
|
| DF
|
Mandela fought for black rule in South Africa and Ghandi fought to kick the
Brits out of India they were considered "CIVIL RIGHTS" heroes. HOWEVER, if a
WHITE PERSON wants to preserve? their culture and not become minorities in
their own nations, they are considered "racists."?"
Beav
"sean_q" <no....@no.spam> wrote in message
news:H9Rqo.20202$X94....@newsfe04.iad...
Sean, a little flame stylee banter between two NG contributors is, as I see
things, fine, but trying to either make sense, or better yet, *TALK* sense
to a shit-fpr-brains racist fucktard is a complete and utter waste of your
talents.
If this cunt ever saw a bike, and why would he be here if not to talk about
stuff with bike riders, it'd be because it was being ridden up his arse by
his fuck buddy.
And he wouldn't know a Harley Davidson from a fucking hole in the ground.
--
Beav
Beav
"Bob Myers" <nospam...@address.invalid> wrote in message
news:i8iml6$vhi$1...@usenet01.boi.hp.com...
It's about time someone cut the electricity supply. And the food supply.
--
Beav
saddlebag
> "Datesfat Chicks" <datesfat.chi...@gmail.com> wrote
Nelson Mandela spent 27 years as a political prisoner in South Africa
before becoming the country's first black president. Mandela was a
leading member of the African National Congress (ANC), which opposed
South Africa's white minority government and its policy of racial
separation, known as apartheid.
Gandhi was invited first to have a series of talks with the Viceroy in
India, and then to attend a Round Table Conference in London. For the
next 16 years the British government used many techniques to stall the
issue and, at times, sent thousands of people to jails. Slowly they
were losing their grip on India, and Gandhi was the one-man force that
they could not shake. Gandhi himself was jailed many times, adding up
to a total of 7 years during his lifetime, but he did not mind it. He
used that period for rest and reflection. He kept writing for his
papers. Several times his newspapers were banned, the machines burned
and everything destroyed. But as soon as the ban was lifted he resumed
the publication. Sometimes he was prevented from writing for his
papers, but the government discovered that this created tremendous
agitation in the public. The government found Gandhi to be a greater
threat while he was imprisoned.
Now Vito, if you can show us how some minority group or other here in
the US is unjustly imprisoning its delicate, oppressed white people,
then I suppose you have a point. If you are trying to tie those two
freedom fighters in with some obese, toothless Tea Party clown holding
a misspelled sign and screaming "Obama's a commie" then you are either
being overtly disingenious or you forgot your medication.
BTW, a hilarious read here:
Bill Shatzer
- snip -
> And he wouldn't know a Harley Davidson from a fucking hole in the ground.
There's a difference?
Twibil
>
>
> > And he wouldn't know a Harley Davidson from a fucking hole in the ground.
>
> There's a difference?
Sure!
Unless BP owns the hole in the ground, they don't normally burn oil.
Old Crow
news:i8otmo$ssn$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Sure.
Hole in the ground: http://www.nps.gov/archive/grca/photos/images/T501.jpg
Harley Davidson:
http://s830.photobucket.com/albums/zz225/walliscrow/Bikes/?action=view¤t=0612101909-00.jpg
Yer welcome.
--
Old Crow
'82 FLTC(P) 92"
'87 FLTC
'61 F-100 302/C-6
BS#133, SENS, TOMKAT, SLOB#13, MAMBM
Vito
> I liked the comment on the last one: "Let me get this straight. When
> Nelson
> Mandela fought for black rule in South Africa and Ghandi fought to kick
> the
> Brits out of India they were considered "CIVIL RIGHTS" heroes. HOWEVER, if
> a
> WHITE PERSON wants to preserve? their culture and not become minorities in
> their own nations, they are considered "racists."?"
[ Nelson Mandela spent 27 years as a political prisoner in South Africa
[ before becoming the country's first black president. ...
Yup, for holding "necklace parties". You know what they are, right? So.
Africa and especially Zimbabwi are so much better off than under white rule.
Kind of like Haiti.
[ Gandhi was invited first to have a series of talks with the Viceroy in
[ India, and ....
And just exactly what did these men threaten? Why a way of life of course.
And what were they advocating? Why a different way of life of course.
[ Now Vito, if you can show us how some minority group or other here in
[ the US is unjustly imprisoning its delicate, oppressed white people,
[ then I suppose you have a point.
Hmmm ... seems I recall a guy named Weaver having his wife and son shot,
largely because he was a white separatist.
[ If you are trying to tie those two
[ freedom fighters in with some obese, toothless Tea Party clown holding
[ a misspelled sign....
So, in your opinion, tying a tire around someone who opposes your point of
view, filling it with gasoline, and setting it on fire is more honorable
than waving a sign??
[ BTW, a hilarious read here:
[ http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/17390/210904
Yes, isn't that where Henry gets his facts from?
Beav
"Bill Shatzer" <ww...@NOcornell.edu> wrote in message
news:i8otmo$ssn$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Don't go there, people will be upset.
--
Beav
Beav
"Old Crow" <walli...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:i8pcpt$9pb$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> "Bill Shatzer" <ww...@NOcornell.edu> wrote in message
> news:i8otmo$ssn$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> Beav wrote:
>>
>> - snip -
>>
>>> And he wouldn't know a Harley Davidson from a fucking hole in the
>>> ground.
>>
>>
>> There's a difference?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Sure.
> Hole in the ground:
> http://www.nps.gov/archive/grca/photos/images/T501.jpg
>
> Harley Davidson:
> http://s830.photobucket.com/albums/zz225/walliscrow/Bikes/?action=view¤t=0612101909-00.jpg
>
> Yer welcome.
Actually, I'm struggling to see any significant difference.
--
Beav
Odinn
You're right, they're both quite beautiful.
--
Odinn
RCOS #7 SENS BS #154
2003 GeezerGlide w/140,000+ miles
Nothing but net to reply
saddlebag
> "saddlebag" <saddle...@aol.com> wrote
>
> > I liked the comment on the last one: "Let me get this straight. When
> > Nelson
> > Mandela fought for black rule in South Africa and Ghandi fought to kick
> > the
> > Brits out of India they were considered "CIVIL RIGHTS" heroes. HOWEVER, if
> > a
> > WHITE PERSON wants to preserve? their culture and not become minorities in
> > their own nations, they are considered "racists."?"
>
> [ Nelson Mandela spent 27 years as a political prisoner in South Africa
> [ before becoming the country's first black president. ...
>
> Yup, for holding "necklace parties". You know what they are, right? So.
> Africa and especially Zimbabwi are so much better off than under white rule.
> Kind of like Haiti.
"Racial segregation in South Africa began in colonial times, but
apartheid as an official policy was introduced following the general
election of 1948. New legislation classified inhabitants into racial
groups ("black", "white", "coloured", and "Indian"), and residential
areas were segregated, sometimes by means of forced removals. From
1958, black people were deprived of their citizenship, legally
becoming citizens of one of ten tribally based self-governing
homelands called bantustans, four of which became nominally
independent states. The government segregated education, medical care,
and other public services, and provided black people with services
inferior to those of white people.
In 1959 a group of disenchanted ANC members formed the Pan Africanist
Congress (PAC), which organised a demonstration against pass books on
21 March 1960. One of those protests was held in the township of
Sharpeville, where 69 people were killed by police in the Sharpeville
massacre.
Initially committed to nonviolent resistance, Mandela and 150 others
were arrested on 5 December 1956 and charged with treason. The
marathon Treason Trial of 1956–1961 followed, with all defendants
receiving acquittals.
In 1961, Mandela became leader of the ANC's armed wing, Umkhonto we
Sizwe (translated Spear of the Nation, and also abbreviated MK), which
he co-founded. He coordinated sabotage campaigns against military and
government targets, making plans for a possible guerrilla war if the
sabotage failed to end apartheid. Mandela also raised funds for MK
abroad and arranged for paramilitary training of the group.
Fellow ANC member Wolfie Kadesh explains the bombing campaign led by
Mandela: "When we knew that we [sic] going to start on 16 December
1961, to blast the symbolic places of apartheid, like pass offices,
native magistrates courts, and things like that ... post offices
and ... the government offices. But we were to do it in such a way
that nobody would be hurt, nobody would get killed."
Mr Mandela was arrested on several occasions and stood trial four
times. On 30 July 1952, he and 19 of his comrades were arrested for
his role in the Defiance Campaign and stood trial in September 1952.
He and the 19 others were found guilty on 2 December for ‘statutory
Communism’ – which the apartheid regime used to define people who
opposed its laws. Their sentence was nine months in jail with hard
labour, suspended for five years.
On 5 December 1956 Mr Mandela and others were arrested on charges of
High Treason. They were released on bail about two weeks later. At the
end of the four-and-a-half year trial, charges were withdrawn against
all the accused. On 29 March 1961 Mr Mandela and 28 colleagues were
found to be innocent of the charges laid against them.
During the Treason Trial the African National Congress was outlawed
and Mr Mandela began operating secretly after the end of the trial.
Later that year, Umkhonto weSizwe, the armed wing of the ANC, was
formed. Mr Mandela left the country at the beginning of 1962 for
military training and to gather support for the ANC. He was arrested
in South Africa on 5 August 1962 and charged with inciting people to
strike and for leaving the country without a passport. He was
convicted and on 7 November 1962 he was sentenced to five years in
jail. He was sent to Robben Island Maximum Security Prison in May
1963. But in July 1963 he was brought to Pretoria to stand trial for
sabotage in what became known as the Rivonia Trial, most of the
accused were arrested at a farm in a suburb of Johannesburg called
Rivonia. That trial started in October 1963 and on 11 June 1964, eight
of the nine accused were convicted of sabotage. The next day they were
sentenced to life imprisonment."
So no Vito, Mandela was not convicted of murder.
> [ Now Vito, if you can show us how some minority group or other here in
> [ the US is unjustly imprisoning its delicate, oppressed white people,
> [ then I suppose you have a point.
>
> Hmmm ... seems I recall a guy named Weaver having his wife and son shot,
> largely because he was a white separatist.
A) I don't think there is any evidence of that, though he went to a
couple of meetings which made him an easy mark for federal agents to
flip him into a mole.
B) That kind of unConstitutional abuse of gov't police power pisses me
off too, but that debacle of a few overzealous federal agents can not
be compared with all white people in the US being forced to live as
second class citizens.
> [ If you are trying to tie those two
> [ freedom fighters in with some obese, toothless Tea Party clown holding
> [ a misspelled sign....
>
> So, in your opinion, tying a tire around someone who opposes your point of
> view, filling it with gasoline, and setting it on fire is more honorable
> than waving a sign??
No, torture is a war crime and should be treated as such regardless of
the origin of the perpetrator. To the best of my knowledge, no one has
accused Nelson Mandela of torture, George Bu$h and Dick Cheney OTOH...
> [ BTW, a hilarious read here:
>
> [http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/17390/210904
>
> Yes, isn't that where Henry gets his facts from?
Specifically, which fact in the RS article are you denying? Also, can
you specify the name of the RS writer who asked you to believe that
9/11 was a US gov't conspiracy?
Vito
> Yup, for holding "necklace parties". You know what they are, right? So.
> Africa and especially Zimbabwi are so much better off than under white
> rule.
> Kind of like Haiti.
> "Racial segregation in South Africa began in colonial times, ...
<Snip umpteen paragraphs of drivel>
> So no Vito, Mandela was not convicted of murder.
Didn't say he was. Neither were Al Capone or Joe Bonanno.
IIRC it was Mrs Mandela leading the neckless parties, murdering blacks who
did not support them. But the real question is "Are the average citizens in
So Africa, Zimbabwe, et al, really better off now than before?". See "Lord
of War".
>> Hmmm ... seems I recall a guy named Weaver having his wife and son shot,
>> largely because he was a white separatist.
> A) I don't think there is any evidence of that, .....
>
>> So, in your opinion, tying a tire around someone who opposes your point
>> of
>> view, filling it with gasoline, and setting it on fire is more honorable
>> than waving a sign??
> No, torture is a war crime and should be treated as such regardless of
> the origin of the perpetrator. To the best of my knowledge, no one has
> accused Nelson Mandela of torture, George Bu$h and Dick Cheney OTOH...
Your knowledge is extremely limited then. Perhaps you should look beyond
RS.
>
> Yes, isn't that where Henry gets his facts from?
> Specifically, which fact in the RS article are you denying? ...
I'm denying no specific, I simply asked a retorical question. RS is
certainly in the same catagory as Henry's cites and certainly devoid of
facts. Do you, or RS, claim that Bush or Cheney actually tortured anybody?
Beav
"Odinn" <od...@atlantabiker.nonet> wrote in message
news:3i07o7-...@jormungandr.atlantabiker.net...
>>> Harley Davidson:
>>> http://s830.photobucket.com/albums/zz225/walliscrow/Bikes/?action=view¤t=0612101909-00.jpg
>>>
>>>
>>> Yer welcome.
>>
>> Actually, I'm struggling to see any significant difference.
>>
>
> You're right, they're both quite beautiful.
Exactamundo.
--
Beav
Beav
"Vito" <vi...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4cb1d1ad$0$14861$9a6e...@unlimited.newshosting.com...
> "saddlebag" <sadd...@aol.com> wrote
>> Yup, for holding "necklace parties". You know what they are, right? So.
>> Africa and especially Zimbabwi are so much better off than under white
>> rule.
>> Kind of like Haiti.
>
>> "Racial segregation in South Africa began in colonial times, ...
>
> <Snip umpteen paragraphs of drivel>
>
>> So no Vito, Mandela was not convicted of murder.
>
> Didn't say he was.
Mmm, I wonder what
"Yup, for holding "necklace parties". You know what they are, right? So.
Africa and especially Zimbabwi are so much better off than under white rule.
Kind of like Haiti."
THAT implies if not murder. I don't think necklace parties are run by the
fucking Avon ladies to sell jewelery. That quote of yours was directly
linked to a discussion about what Mandela was imprisoned for, not for what
his wife was accused of.
> Neither were Al Capone or Joe Bonanno.
> IIRC it was Mrs Mandela leading the neckless parties, murdering blacks who
> did not support them.
So not Nelson Mandela then>
> But the real question is "Are the average citizens in
> So Africa, Zimbabwe, et al, really better off now than before?". See
> "Lord
> of War".
No, the real question is "Was Mandela ever convicted of murder" and the
answer is pretty simple. No
--
Beav
Vito
| No, the real question is "Was Mandela ever convicted of murder" and the
| answer is pretty simple. No
| --
of a conviction is not the same as innocence nor evidence of sainthood. As
I pointed out, neither was Al Capone.
Old Crow
news:PZCso.10270$pi5....@newsfe27.ams2...
Thanks, my wife and I like 'em. The Canyon ain't half bad either<g>.
saddlebag
> "saddlebag" <saddle...@aol.com> wrote
>
> > Yup, for holding "necklace parties". You know what they are, right? So.
> > Africa and especially Zimbabwi are so much better off than under white
> > rule.
> > Kind of like Haiti.
> > "Racial segregation in South Africa began in colonial times, ...
>
> <Snip umpteen paragraphs of drivel>
>
> > So no Vito, Mandela was not convicted of murder.
>
> Didn't say he was.
Ummm, since wrapping a human in a fuel filled tire results in death
and since you said Mandela was imprisoned for "necklace" parties, you
certainly didn't leave yourself any wiggle room on this on.
>
> >> Hmmm ... seems I recall a guy named Weaver having his wife and son shot,
> >> largely because he was a white separatist.
> > A) I don't think there is any evidence of that, .....
>
> >> So, in your opinion, tying a tire around someone who opposes your point
> >> of
> >> view, filling it with gasoline, and setting it on fire is more honorable
> >> than waving a sign??
> > No, torture is a war crime and should be treated as such regardless of
> > the origin of the perpetrator. To the best of my knowledge, no one has
> > accused Nelson Mandela of torture, George Bu$h and Dick Cheney OTOH...
>
> Your knowledge is extremely limited then. Perhaps you should look beyond
> RS.
Perhaps I do. Just because I provided a link to a humorous look at
tea partiers doesn't mean it is my sole source of information.
> > Yes, isn't that where Henry gets his facts from?
> > Specifically, which fact in the RS article are you denying? ...
>
> I'm denying no specific, I simply asked a retorical question. RS is
> certainly in the same catagory as Henry's cites
No, Henry cites conspiracy web sites who drum up business through
fear and hate. RS drums up business through thorough and often
humorous news articles.
> and certainly devoid of
> facts. Do you, or RS, claim that Bush or Cheney actually tortured anybody?
You ever been waterboarded?
Vito
"Vito" <v...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>> > So no Vito, Mandela was not convicted of murder.
>>
>> Didn't say he was.
> Ummm, since wrapping a human in a fuel filled tire results in death
> and since you said Mandela was imprisoned for "necklace" parties, you
> certainly didn't leave yourself any wiggle room on this on.
Read it again. You said "Mandela was not CONVICTED of murder" and I repilied
that I "didn't say he was". Both are factual. You seem to have a problem
understanding that many murderers are never convicted of murder. Al Capone
is a good example. Mr. Mandela is another.
>
> >> Hmmm ... seems I recall a guy named Weaver having his wife and son
> >> shot,
> >> largely because he was a white separatist.
> > A) I don't think there is any evidence of that, .....
>
> >> So, in your opinion, tying a tire around someone who opposes your point
> >> of
> >> view, filling it with gasoline, and setting it on fire is more
> >> honorable
> >> than waving a sign??
> > No, torture is a war crime and should be treated as such regardless of
> > the origin of the perpetrator. To the best of my knowledge, no one has
> > accused Nelson Mandela of torture, George Bu$h and Dick Cheney OTOH...
>
> Your knowledge is extremely limited then. Perhaps you should look beyond
> RS.
Perhaps I do. Just because I provided a link to a humorous look at
tea partiers doesn't mean it is my sole source of information.
> > Yes, isn't that where Henry gets his facts from?
> > Specifically, which fact in the RS article are you denying? ...
>
> I'm denying no specific, I simply asked a retorical question. RS is
> certainly in the same catagory as Henry's cites
[ No, Henry cites conspiracy web sites who drum up business through
[ fear and hate. RS drums up business through thorough and often
[ humorous news articles.
Clearly the difference between the two is in the eye of the reader.
> and certainly devoid of
> facts. Do you, or RS, claim that Bush or Cheney actually tortured anybody?
You ever been waterboarded?
Yes. Moreover, as part of scuba school, we had to remove our masks, put
them back on, then empty them of water by breathing air in thru our mouth
and exhailing thru our noses, all whilst under water and keeping a cool
head. It was a lot harder than simple water boarding, which is just scary
once you learn to control your instincts.
But your reply avoids my question: Do you, or RS, claim that Bush or Cheney
actually tortured anybody? After all neither one personally waterboarded
anybody or were even there when it happened; nor were either ever convicted
of any such thing. The point is and was "why apply one standard to them and
the opposite to Mandela?
Beam Me Up Scotty
> "saddlebag" <sadd...@aol.com> wrote
> "Vito" <v...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> So no Vito, Mandela was not convicted of murder.
>>>
>>> Didn't say he was.
>
>> Ummm, since wrapping a human in a fuel filled tire results in death
>> and since you said Mandela was imprisoned for "necklace" parties, you
>> certainly didn't leave yourself any wiggle room on this on.
>
> Read it again. You said "Mandela was not CONVICTED of murder" and I repilied
> that I "didn't say he was". Both are factual. You seem to have a problem
> understanding that many murderers are never convicted of murder. Al Capone
> is a good example. Mr. Mandela is another.
O.J. Simpson comes to mind, I would think that any blond babe would be a
little concerned when O.J. starts cooking and picks up a knife.....
saddlebag
My initial comment is that Mandela was not accused of murder. OJ was
not only accused, but prosecutors provided months of evidence to prove
it. The fact that the jury was racially biased in favor of their guy
is another matter entirely.
saddlebag
> "saddlebag" <saddle...@aol.com> wrote
>
> "Vito" <v...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> >> > So no Vito, Mandela was not convicted of murder.
>
> >> Didn't say he was.
> > Ummm, since wrapping a human in a fuel filled tire results in death
> > and since you said Mandela was imprisoned for "necklace" parties, you
> > certainly didn't leave yourself any wiggle room on this on.
>
> Read it again. You said "Mandela was not CONVICTED of murder" and I repilied
> that I "didn't say he was". Both are factual. You seem to have a problem
> understanding that many murderers are never convicted of murder. Al Capone
> is a good example. Mr. Mandela is another.
Then you are either believing in leiu of evidence or you are hiding
evidence that is letting a murderer walk free.
> > >> Hmmm ... seems I recall a guy named Weaver having his wife and son
> > >> shot,
> > >> largely because he was a white separatist.
> > > A) I don't think there is any evidence of that, .....
>
> > >> So, in your opinion, tying a tire around someone who opposes your point
> > >> of
> > >> view, filling it with gasoline, and setting it on fire is more
> > >> honorable
> > >> than waving a sign??
> > > No, torture is a war crime and should be treated as such regardless of
> > > the origin of the perpetrator. To the best of my knowledge, no one has
> > > accused Nelson Mandela of torture, George Bu$h and Dick Cheney OTOH...
>
> > Your knowledge is extremely limited then. Perhaps you should look beyond
> > RS.
>
> Perhaps I do. Just because I provided a link to a humorous look at
> tea partiers doesn't mean it is my sole source of information.
>
> > > Yes, isn't that where Henry gets his facts from?
> > > Specifically, which fact in the RS article are you denying? ...
>
> > I'm denying no specific, I simply asked a retorical question. RS is
> > certainly in the same catagory as Henry's cites
>
> [ No, Henry cites conspiracy web sites who drum up business through
> [ fear and hate. RS drums up business through thorough and often
> [ humorous news articles.
>
> Clearly the difference between the two is in the eye of the reader.
Well unless the reader is legally blind or has a hyperactive
imagination, I can't believe said reader will find any article written
by a RS journalist that promotes the idea that everyone (from firemen,
to cops, to demolishon crews, to the Bush Administration, to clean up
crews, to eye witnesses, to Islamic nutjobs) was together in on a
giant conspiracy that has been devoid of a single case of loose lips
for the last decade.
I'm sure your lack of supporting evidence for your claim will sway
some in the same way Johnnie Cochran swayed his African American jury
with his BS.
> > and certainly devoid of
> > facts. Do you, or RS, claim that Bush or Cheney actually tortured anybody?
>
> You ever been waterboarded?
>
> Yes. Moreover, as part of scuba school, we had to remove our masks, put
> them back on, then empty them of water by breathing air in thru our mouth
> and exhailing thru our noses, all whilst under water and keeping a cool
> head. It was a lot harder than simple water boarding, which is just scary
> once you learn to control your instincts.
Another notable former swabbie had this to say on the matter:
[Water-boarding] is torture... It's drowning. It gives you the
complete sensation that you are drowning. It is no good, because you
-- I'll put it to you this way, you give me a water board, Dick Cheney
and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders.
> But your reply avoids my question: Do you, or RS, claim that Bush or Cheney
> actually tortured anybody? After all neither one personally waterboarded
> anybody or were even there when it happened; nor were either ever convicted
> of any such thing. The point is and was "why apply one standard to them and
> the opposite to Mandela?
Because there is plenty of evidence that it was ordered under the
Bushies and none that it was ordered under Nelson Mandela.
Rob Kleinschmidt
> "Beav" <beavis.origi...@ntlwoxorld.com> wrote
You guys might really want to start by doing a little reading.
The Mandela in question was **Winnie** Mandela, Winne was
Nelson Mandela's wife.
Nobody ever accused Nelson. Winnie was actually convicted
of kidnapping but on appeal, the sentence was reduced to a
slap on the wrist fine.
Nelson separated from WInnie in 1991 and divorced her in 1996
against her wishes.
You want to claim Winnie was not a saint, I'd tend to agree.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/mandela/etc/cron.html
Thanks for the laughs, guys. Seriously.
Vito
> Then you are either believing in leiu of evidence or you are hiding
> evidence that is letting a murderer walk free.
I'm going to skip the Mandela/RS BS. There is no legal evidence that
Bush/Cheney ever ordered anyone waterboarded just as there is no legal
evidence Mandela ordered a necklass party. Rather, both led groups who did
these deeds. You are applying one standard of evidence to Bush and another
to Mandela. You either suffer liberal blindness or you are pulling my leg.
Either way there is no sense continuing.
> [Water-boarding] is torture... It's drowning. It gives you the
> complete sensation that you are drowning. It is no good, because you
> -- I'll put it to you this way, you give me a water board, Dick Cheney
> and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders.
Yes, both waterboarding and clearing one's scuba mask make all one's
instincts scream that one is drowning. That's a fact. However people can
and do learn to work through those instinctive emotions. To clear a mask
one must breath in thru one's mouth while the nose and sinuses are full of
water and every instinct is screaming that you will drown if you do that -
yet you must to continue your dive.
Whether it is torture or not depends on one's personal definition of
torture. I suppose it is torture to people governed by instinct and emotion
rather than rational thought but in any case it certainly is far more benign
than burning somebody alive.
BTW, waterboarding isn't done to get confessions or info per se because the
info will be unreliable. It is used to relieve 'true believers' of any
notion that Allah will save them, making them easier to deprogram.
Remember, we are dealing with folks who believe their body will begin to
glow and that it/they will ascend to paradise where 17 virgins await them if
they are killed in a holy war. If they do not glow when they think they are
drowning then that is proven false. ie, it serves a valid, humane purpose.
>> But your reply avoids my question: Do you, or RS, claim that Bush or
>> Cheney
>> actually tortured anybody? After all neither one personally waterboarded
>> anybody or were even there when it happened; nor were either ever
>> convicted
>> of any such thing. The point is and was "why apply one standard to them
>> and
>> the opposite to Mandela?
> Because there is plenty of evidence that it was ordered under the
> Bushies and none that it was ordered under Nelson Mandela.
BS. Mandela led groups put tires full of gasoline around victims, set them
afire, and cheered at their horrible deaths. Bush was in charge of the
gummymint when some terrorists got waterboarded. Both bear the blame for
what their subordinates did. The difference is between a non-fatal
interrogation tool and a horrible form of murder. How one percieves this
depends on his POV. If you believe that Euro colonialism was bad - that
Zimbabwe is better off than Rhodesia - and that devout Muslims have a right
to kill innocents, then Mandela is a hero and Bush a criminal. Otherwise
otherwise.
Vito
> The Mandela in question was **Winnie** Mandela, Winne was
> Nelson Mandela's wife.
Yea, but <grin> try to convince pussy whipped guys like Saddlebag and me
that Nelson had nothing to do with it ....
saddlebag
> "saddlebag" <saddle...@aol.com> wrote"Vito" <v...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Then you are either believing in leiu of evidence or you are hiding
> > evidence that is letting a murderer walk free.
>
> I'm going to skip the Mandela/RS BS.
Cutting your losses demonstrates rational thought. It always brings me
joy to see this light begin to flicker!
> There is no legal evidence that
> Bush/Cheney ever ordered anyone waterboarded just as there is no legal
> evidence Mandela ordered a necklass party.
Classifying information under the guise of "National Security" is a
fabulous way for criminals to cover their tracks. Mandela had no such
beauracracy to shelter him. If he ordered such things it shouldn't be
hard to prove it.
> Rather, both led groups who did these deeds.
One group was punished by spending decades in prison following decades
of living under a police state. The other retired a multi-millionaire
after living his whole life with silver spoon in mouth and now
occassionally shows up picking his nose and wiping it on someone
else's sleeve.
> > [Water-boarding] is torture... It's drowning. It gives you the
> > complete sensation that you are drowning. It is no good, because you
> > -- I'll put it to you this way, you give me a water board, Dick Cheney
> > and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders.
>
> Yes, both waterboarding and clearing one's scuba mask make all one's
> instincts scream that one is drowning. That's a fact. However people can
> and do learn to work through those instinctive emotions. To clear a mask
> one must breath in thru one's mouth while the nose and sinuses are full of
> water and every instinct is screaming that you will drown if you do that -
> yet you must to continue your dive.
Except that when you're waterboarded, you mouth is full of water too.
> Whether it is torture or not depends on one's personal definition of
> torture. I suppose it is torture to people governed by instinct and emotion
> rather than rational thought but in any case it certainly is far more benign
> than burning somebody alive.
Both are torture. If the Bush administration agreed, they could have
easily prosecuted those "rebels" who obviously took matters into their
own hands.
> BTW, waterboarding isn't done to get confessions or info per se because the
> info will be unreliable. It is used to relieve 'true believers' of any
> notion that Allah will save them, making them easier to deprogram.
> Remember, we are dealing with folks who believe their body will begin to
> glow and that it/they will ascend to paradise where 17 virgins await them if
> they are killed in a holy war. If they do not glow when they think they are
> drowning then that is proven false. ie, it serves a valid, humane purpose.
Great, then why not use that logic to punish Christian criminals too?!
Christians believe Jesus and angels peek over the clouds and watch
over them. Giving them a subtle drowning might make them realize that
the clouds are moving by too fast for Jesus to get a handle on what's
going on down here.
> BS. Mandela led groups put tires full of gasoline around victims,
And if individuals accused of these matters are caught and can show
that they were directed by others authorities, said authorities should
be held accountable. This didn't happen in the US.
> Both bear the blame for what their subordinates did.
I disagree. They bear blame if there is evidence they authorized the
acts.
> If you believe that Euro colonialism was bad - that
> Zimbabwe is better off than Rhodesia - and that devout Muslims have a right
> to kill innocents, then Mandela is a hero and Bush a criminal. Otherwise
> otherwise.
Wow, what a conversation, now let me get this straight:
a) If some third world country's oppressed peasants fight to break the
bonds of their oppressors and don't immediately become an economic
superpower, they should be condemned for raising a fuss and their
leader rightly subjected to indefinite imprisonment.
b) If the US spends tons of money and lives fighting an oppressive
regime under the guise that it is for the good of some third world
country's peasants then Americans should feel giddy about
administration responisible for the resulting debt, American injuries,
and deaths and see to it they get a lifetime paycheck, security, and
healthcare benefits.
c) In the US, if you are picked up by a gov't cop and you are brown,
then you are automatically considered a terrorist and may be subjected
to indefinite imprisonment and torture. Anyone who disagrees and
prefers to see people (white or brown or other) accused of criminal
activity held under the auspices of the Geneva convention and given
their day in court are liberals who simply don't stop to consider how
much Mandela and Bush have in common.
The only other thing I can think to add here is that having heard you
sing the praises of Wide Glide touring, I can safely say that you are
far more immune to torture than the avg terrorist.
Vito
>> Bush/Cheney ever ordered anyone waterboarded just as there is no legal
>> evidence Mandela ordered a necklass party.
[Classifying information under the guise of "National Security" is a
[fabulous way for criminals to cover their tracks. Mandela had no such
[beauracracy to shelter him. If he ordered such things it shouldn't be
[hard to prove it.
Again, you are either pulling my leg or hoplessly naive. Mandela had the
same kind of "organization" as Hitler had b4 winning office.
>> Rather, both led groups who did these deeds.
[One group was punished by spending decades in prison following decades
[of living under a police state. The other retired a multi-millionaire
[after living his whole life with silver spoon in mouth and now
[occassionally shows up picking his nose and wiping it on someone
[else's sleeve.
Proving only that some are smarter than others.
>> Yes, both waterboarding and clearing one's scuba mask make all one's
>> instincts scream that one is drowning. That's a fact. However people can
>> and do learn to work through those instinctive emotions. To clear a mask
>> one must breath in thru one's mouth while the nose and sinuses are full
>> of
>> water and every instinct is screaming that you will drown if you do
>> that -
>> yet you must to continue your dive.
[Except that when you're waterboarded, you mouth is full of water too.
Hogwash. They put a rag over your face and pour water on it. Shoving
somebody's head into a dirty toilet is more effective but risks actual
drowning whilst boarding does not.
[Both are torture. If the Bush administration agreed, they could have
[easily prosecuted those "rebels" who obviously took matters into their
[own hands.
Why would he have done that? It is a successful deprogramming technique.
> BTW, waterboarding isn't done to get confessions or info per se because
> the
> info will be unreliable. It is used to relieve 'true believers' of any
> notion that Allah will save them, making them easier to deprogram.
> Remember, we are dealing with folks who believe their body will begin to
> glow and that it/they will ascend to paradise where 17 virgins await them
> if
> they are killed in a holy war. If they do not glow when they think they
> are
> drowning then that is proven false. ie, it serves a valid, humane purpose.
[ Great, then why not use that logic to punish Christian criminals too?!
We should if they become suicide bombers.
[Christians believe Jesus and angels peek over the clouds and watch
[over them. Giving them a subtle drowning might make them realize that
[the clouds are moving by too fast for Jesus to get a handle on what's
[going on down here.
Ahhh... <grin> ... you ain't no Baptist are you?
> BS. Mandela led groups put tires full of gasoline around victims,
[And if individuals accused of these matters are caught and can show
[that they were directed by others authorities, said authorities should
[be held accountable. This didn't happen in the US.
Bwahaha! How would you get one of Mandela's henchmen to finger him, by
waterboarding?
AFAIK nobody was "necklassed" by any US employee. It is silly to equate
waterboarding, which is neither fatal nor painful, but merely very
uncomfortable, to "Necklassing". The former is simply a tool used to
deprogram fanatics prior to interrogation. The latter is a terrorists'
weapon used to intimidate whole populations.
> Both bear the blame for what their subordinates did.
[I disagree. They bear blame if there is evidence they authorized the
[acts.
And one can find equally valid evidence for both - it's called hearsay.
> If you believe that Euro colonialism was bad - that
> Zimbabwe is better off than Rhodesia - and that devout Muslims have a
> right
> to kill innocents, then Mandela is a hero and Bush a criminal. Otherwise
> otherwise.
Wow, what a conversation, now let me get this straight:
[a) If some third world country's oppressed peasants fight to break the
[bonds of their oppressors ....
Let me fix that for you:
a) if some third world country's criminals convince the peasants that they
are oppressed and use them to murder that country's elite, in order to
become the oppressors and worsten the peasants' lot .....
[b) If the US spends tons of money and lives fighting an oppressive
[regime under the guise that it is for the good of some third world
[country's peasants then Americans should feel giddy about
[administration responisible for the resulting debt, American injuries,
[and deaths and see to it they get a lifetime paycheck, security, and
[healthcare benefits.
Nice dodge. But the Iraq invasion has zip to do with this discussion.
[ c) In the US, if you are picked up by a gov't cop and you are brown,
[then you are automatically considered a terrorist and may be subjected
[to indefinite imprisonment and torture. Anyone who disagrees and
[prefers to see people (white or brown or other) accused of criminal
[activity held under the auspices of the Geneva convention and given
[their day in court are liberals who simply don't stop to consider how
[much Mandela and Bush have in common.
Again, you are either naive or joking. Hundreds of brown people are arrested
along our southern border every day. None are considered terrorists or
subjected to torture or even long imprisonment. The prisoners you speak of
are treated far better than the GC requires.
Bush and Mandela have much in common? The former encouraged waterboarding
fanatical terrorists who, under the GC, are spies not POWs and have no
rights. The latter encouraged necklassing fellow South Africans who
disagreed with him. Yes, much in common, but hardly the same. If they were
Pelosi would have got a necklass.
[The only other thing I can think to add here is that having heard you
[sing the praises of Wide Glide touring, I can safely say that you are
[far more immune to torture than the avg terrorist.
Probably.
Drumrboy
> Sean, a little flame stylee banter between two NG contributors is, as I see
> things, fine, but trying to either make sense, or better yet, *TALK* sense
> to a shit-fpr-brains racist fucktard is a complete and utter waste of your
Hating on Jews doesn't make him a racist, it makes him an anti-Semite.
Just sayin....