KX 500 vs. CR500 vs. KTM380
Ric Zero
This is a second try to get opinions on the relative merits of the
bikes listed above. I'm going to use them for desert riding, dune
riding and some trail riding ... and hopefully a desert race or two.
I got four replys to my original post: 3 were satisfied KTM owners, one
was from a dissatisfied KTM owner (thought the bike was OK but the
company was arrogant and hard to deal with). Also one message
suggesting the new Yamaha 400 stroker. THANKS!!!
So I'm still looking for anyone with hands on or annecdotal experience
about these bikes, especially the KX or CR. Unfortunately I threw out
all my old DB mags and wasn't that interested in this type of bike until
recently haveing been more of a dual purpose/4 stroke type.
THANKS!!
David E. Wilson
OK, I have a 97' CR500 and have ridden 360/380 KTMs (and I like KTM's
more than any Jap brand), and I was a desert racer in the late 60' and
early 70'. For desert and desert trails I would buy a CR over the KTM.
I think that the CR or the KX is better in the desert than a KTM. That
is not to say that racing or ridding a CR/KX is easier on the ridder
than a KTM 380, its not. Also, if you aren't a real good rider you may
wear yourself out or crash more on a full size two stroke. However, if
you want to win in the desert and YOU are the right guy to deal with 60+
HP get the CR or KX. I like the CR over the KX because it has a better
layout, I think its more comfortable, and I think that a 500 cc two
stroke doesn't need a power valve. I think most people (and most mag
testers) would say that the CR is better in tight turns and the KX is
more stable. No matter what, if you want to go fast in the desert put a
stearing damper on all bikes. So, you a good enough rider!
Dave
dlk...@eudoramail.com
These are my opinions: the ktm380 is a pain in the ass to jet and
replacement parts are very very expensive. The kx500 is the king of the
desert bigbores while the cr500 is a better all-around playbike.
Both the cr and kx500's have been relatively unchanged for the last, oh,
5 years but the power and brakes and durability are top-notch. The KX
has slightly better desert suspension and stability while the CR turns
and handles at slower speeds a bit better.
Mind you these are my OPINIONS. Whew, I just thwarted off at least 50
flames with that statement. Good luck and have fun.
Cam Mitchell
Ric Zero <w...@informix.com> wrote:
I haven't ridden the CR or KTM, and I haven't ridden my KX in the
desert, but I'll try to give some insight. The KTM handles better
than the other two, but the suspension sucks in stock form. The KTM
has enough power for most situations so that you won't lose ground to
either of the big 500's, but I assume that up a long stretch tapped
out in top gear the 500's would pull away. The CR turns better than
the KX, but the suspension isn't as good. It has better ergonomics
than the KX, but is more dated. The KX has a 19" rear wheel (the CR
has an old-school 18"), electrolite(fusion?) cylinder coating, and
power valves. The CR is the most bulletproof of the three, I can't
speak for the KTM but the KX and CR are both stone reliable. You can
trash the KX's transmission if you really try. The CR has less to go
wrong with it, having less moving parts in the cylinder. The KX has
better suspension, the best desert power, and handles fantastically at
high speed. The ergonomics are dated though. It has a very stiff
clutch pull, but who needs a clutch with a 500?!? The KX is the king
of the desert, backed up by its repeated victories in the Baja 1000.
I would recommend the KX, and I'm trying to be as unbiased as
possible. If I were to desert race I would get a KX. If I were to
buy a woods bike, it would be the CR. For an MX bike, the KTM would
be the ticket. I ride mostly MX, so if I were to buy a new open
classer it would be the KTM (or a YZ400F), it better suits my needs.
The KX is also a very fun bike on the MX track, but can be a handful.
The above is all just opinions, the KX based on personal experience
and the CR/KTM on what I've read/heard. Good luck with your decision,
you can't go wrong with any of these bikes. Good luck!!
--
cmit...@uniserve.com / http://users.uniserve.com/~cmitchel
94 Kawasaki KX500
64 BMW R60 (For Sale)
Team Cheesy Poof
disclaimer: contrary to popular opinion, Cam is not perfect. Cam accepts no
responsibilty for what his computer tells him to type, and is currently recieving
treatment from a naturapathic entomologist. All stories are fictional unless
otherwise advised. Cam's dialog can not be reproduced without written
authorization or a reasonable hand drawn facsimile. mxxviiv
TreeBeater
dlk...@eudoramail.com wrote in article <34F732...@eudoramail.com>...
> Ric Zero wrote:
>
> These are my opinions: the ktm380 is a pain in the ass to jet and
> replacement parts are very very expensive. The kx500 is the king of the
> desert bigbores while the cr500 is a better all-around playbike.
>
> Both the cr and kx500's have been relatively unchanged for the last, oh,
> 5 years but the power and brakes and durability are top-notch.
<snip>
Yep,Yep.
I ride a 90 cr and would only change for a new cr.But I also ride it in
woods tighter'n a knot. The KX is Supposed to be THE bike for the
dez.<susp.-power valve-stabil.>
Q- Why aren't you considering a big bore 4 stroker?
ps. I have had to bore my cr. - no plating needed.
pss. fan the clutch one time and climb *ANYTHING*
Jim Hall
OK, I was one of the original responders,who liked KTMs. I still think
for the desert, I'd choose the KTM over the CR. Gary Moman was also
one of the "satisfied" KTM owners who answered the original post (I
believe). Gary no doubt will speak for himself, but he recently
swapped an exceedingly trick CR for a KTM, and seems happy with the
switch - rating the KTM probably better for the dez and his type of
riding than the CR - once he gets the suspension dialled in. Note that
Gary had to put Mazoracchi (I spelled that wrong) forks on his CR to
get the CR suspension where he wanted it.
The king of the desert is the KX500 - by a long ways. I think KTMs
get better finishes than CRs in major dez races, but then again KTM (I
think) sponsors faster riders.
The KX is more stable at speed than the CR, which is a bit more stable
than the KTM. No surprisingly, the KTM turns better than the CR,
which turns better than the big Kawi. All these bikes need a steering
damper. The KTM is a head shaking fool at high speed in deep sand,
even with a damper, not uncontrollable, but it keeps you on your toes.
All bikes have awesome power. The KTM can run with the CR and KX,
probably because it has a higher strung and more modern engine. The
engine in the other bikes haven't changed in years. The CR and KX both
have good reputations for reliability. We'll see about the KTM. KTM
parts cost more - and the bike costs a bit more. Then again, the KTM
comes with more "good" stuff (bars, rims, etc.).
I'm getting more used to the KTM suspension, partly because I'm
learning to ride and work it better. Neither the front or back are
plush over small stuff - the front is better than the back. On major
hits, the bike works quite well. I think all three machines likely
could benefit from having the stock suspensions revalved.
I think the KTM is a more versatile machine, due to better handling. I
don't think you'd want to motocross a big Kawasaki very much. If you
want a big bore (scary fast) desert bike, you'll be tickled pink with
any of them though. If everyone rode KTMs, I'd want to ride something
else... <g>
KTM seems more sensitive to jetting than the others, but If you know
how to change jets, not real difficult. My bike runs pretty cleanly
throughout all throttle settings, but it has a lot of loud power valve
chatter. Several people have attributed this to mid range jetting -
but there is no consensus as to whether it is too rich or too lean. I
tend to go with the too rich theory myself, but I haven't taken an
afternoon to try to sort it out yet. I'm too lazy and would rather
ride; I'll rethink that opinion when the power valve shoots out the
side of the engine one day.
And you may indeed want to consider a four stroke such as the YZ or
WR400F. Also Husaberg for that matter. The Yamahas are hard to come
by, and the Husabergs are quite pricey, but they are good machines.
--
When the going gets Weird - the weird turn Pro....
h.s.thompson
Jim Hall
Flagstaff, AZ
REPLY TO: jdhall<at>plateau<dot>com
98 380EXC
94 KDX250 FOR SALE!
?? XR125
84 PW50 (jimmy)
dlk...@eudoramail.com
Jim Hall wrote:
> The king of the desert is the KX500 - by a long ways. I think KTMs
> get better finishes than CRs in major dez races, but then again KTM (I
> think) sponsors faster riders.
>
KTM does sponsor fast riders but most of them just went to Kawasaki
since Ty went to a Yamaha. And most of Hondas fast boys run on that
monster XR628. Although this year I think one of their fast guys is on
the CR500. As for Kawi, most riders use them for the desert due to the
excellent (relatively speaking) amateur support.
JRPRKR
500CR WITH A FLYWHEEL WEIGHT IS JUST PLAIN FUN. AFTER MANY BIKES MOSTLY HUSKY'S
, THIS 1997 MODEL HAS IT ALL. I DO MOSTLY TRAIL RIDING IN SOUTHERN OHIO.
Rvdmail
I have not ridden the CR, but have ridden the KX and a new KTM380. Both will
ware you out compared to the KTM300 that Destry Abott/Scott Harden/Darly Folks
rode last year. I do not believe you could go wrong with either bike; however,
if you are planning to play ride and race, the KTM is the better choice based
soley on the bikes alone. As a KTM owner, I can attest to the arrogance and
"PITTIFUL" lack of support, information, and parts that KTM Dealers furnish.
It seems that you need to be a pro to get what other dealers/shops share openly
and freely. Parts are also scarse, due mainly to the fact that there are fewer
dealers, high prices, and wholesale modle changes most every year. Who can
afford to be stuck with a high inventory you cant move? Needless to say, I wont
be on a KTM next year. (unless the dealers in Phoenix get it together).
If you have been around long enough, you would know that desert races are won
by the best riders, not the best bikes. In my chronology, Husky used to rule,
only a select few rode them, Rossler, Smith/Ascraft, Harden/Sweetland, Rudden,
Parks (every one else was on a Yamaha). Then Honda ruled for a short time after
hiring the likes of Dan Ascraft (Husky), Olgolvee/Miller (Yamaha), and others.
Finally, Kawasaki hired L.R.(LarryRossler) and everyone else followed suit.
What if Suzuki had any interest in Baja and went afterL.R.? Would we all be
ridding new RM500'S today?
Does anyone remember a KTM Dez sled rider named Bob Ballantine?
RidesKTM
> As a KTM owner, I can attest to the arrogance and
>"PITTIFUL" lack of support, information, and parts that KTM Dealers furnish.
As the owner of a '98 KTM 380 M/XC I've had excellent support from my dealer.
Parts availability has been good and the owner is more helpful than any I've
dealt with. As far as frequent model changes- what's wrong with progress? It's
unfortunate that your dealer is sub-standard.
Dave H
Des Moines.
Jim Hall
rvd...@aol.com (Rvdmail) wrote:
> Needless to say, I wont
>be on a KTM next year. (unless the dealers in Phoenix get it together).
Sounds like you and Barry don't get along.
>Does anyone remember a KTM Dez sled rider named Bob Ballantine?
Yup - although I seem to remember him on a Yamaha. Long time ago when
I was leaving dez racing.
Gary M
On 28 Feb 1998 10:46:00 -0700, jdh...@Nospam.you (Jim Hall) wrote:
>"David E. Wilson" <dwi...@ucar.edu> wrote:
>
<snipped Daves stuff>
>
>OK, I was one of the original responders,who liked KTMs. I still think
>for the desert, I'd choose the KTM over the CR. Gary Moman was also
>one of the "satisfied" KTM owners who answered the original post (I
>believe). Gary no doubt will speak for himself, but he recently
>swapped an exceedingly trick CR for a KTM, and seems happy with the
>switch - rating the KTM probably better for the dez and his type of
>riding than the CR - once he gets the suspension dialled in. Note that
>Gary had to put Mazoracchi (I spelled that wrong) forks on his CR to
>get the CR suspension where he wanted it.
I just never could get the ground feel to be the way I wanted, and
corners on a 500 wore me out. There seems to be a tradeoff between
plushness and ground feedback. Ignoring rocks is a wonderful thing,
but corners were hard to judge. Hitting a line without some tactical
feedback through the bars makes it hard to tell exactly where the
front wheel is. I think flex with the 45 'zokes was a big problem.
The WP 50s just don't feel the same way. I may have them mod'ed for
progressive valving though. FMF is also supposed to have a good setup
worked out but I don't know what it is yet.
>
>The king of the desert is the KX500 - by a long ways. I think KTMs
>get better finishes than CRs in major dez races, but then again KTM (I
>think) sponsors faster riders.
I'll second that.
>
>The KX is more stable at speed than the CR, which is a bit more stable
>than the KTM. No surprisingly, the KTM turns better than the CR,
>which turns better than the big Kawi. All these bikes need a steering
>damper. The KTM is a head shaking fool at high speed in deep sand,
>even with a damper, not uncontrollable, but it keeps you on your toes.
>
>All bikes have awesome power. The KTM can run with the CR and KX,
>probably because it has a higher strung and more modern engine. The
>engine in the other bikes haven't changed in years. The CR and KX both
>have good reputations for reliability. We'll see about the KTM. KTM
>parts cost more - and the bike costs a bit more. Then again, the KTM
>comes with more "good" stuff (bars, rims, etc.).
The KTM loves to square off corners. Very bitchen. 500s try to
overshoot the corner, then maybe panic square the corner, then do
excess wheel spin, then take a different exit path than planned.
>
>I'm getting more used to the KTM suspension, partly because I'm
>learning to ride and work it better. Neither the front or back are
>plush over small stuff - the front is better than the back. On major
>hits, the bike works quite well. I think all three machines likely
>could benefit from having the stock suspensions revalved.
Same here. With my 380, firm dirt and big impacts are crisp handling.
I don't like it in sand yet. It's easy to start though!
>
<snipped>
>KTM seems more sensitive to jetting than the others, but If you know
>how to change jets, not real difficult. My bike runs pretty cleanly
>throughout all throttle settings, but it has a lot of loud power valve
>chatter. Several people have attributed this to mid range jetting -
>but there is no consensus as to whether it is too rich or too lean. I
>tend to go with the too rich theory myself, but I haven't taken an
>afternoon to try to sort it out yet. I'm too lazy and would rather
>ride; I'll rethink that opinion when the power valve shoots out the
>side of the engine one day.
Playing with the pilot is next on my list. It just seems ludicrous to
spend an entire afternoon getting one jet sorted out. And jetting
seems too rich all around. Putting around yesterday I used more gas
than anyone else in the group of ten I was in. Hondas never have that
problem.
After the fuel thread I'm thinking about using some race gas to work
the bottom end jetting. Lower specific gravity and all that. Should
lean the bottom end.
Gary M
Team Cheesy Poof
Rvdmail
Gary Noblet and his wife of Premeire Cycles, AZ provide good service, I just
happen to live closer to another shop in the valley and can not always drive up
to see them.
Richie Wohlers
> than the KX, but is more dated. The KX has a 19" rear wheel (the CR
> has an old-school 18"), electrolite(fusion?) cylinder coating, and
The 18" is a better wheel in the desert, because the tire is supposedlyless likely to
get a flat.
TBOB
Too Bad KTM stoped making the desert King the 550!
Still love mine it does it all! Before I bought mine I talked with
Destry Abbot(sp) after a Desert race in Mexico I had a "94" 300 EXC at
the time and he had just switched to Kaw. from KTM, I asked him which
Big Bore he like better for the desert, his answer "No comparison the
550 by far" this was coming from a guy sponsored by Kaw. That told me
alot.
TBob
"96" KTM 550
TBOB
That's Barry Noblet
TBOB
Jim how do you know he is refereing to Barry?
h.d...@usafa.af.mil
In article <350a02ad....@news.wizard.com>,
gmo...@wizard.com (Gary M) wrote:
>
> >KTM seems more sensitive to jetting than the others, but If you know
> >how to change jets, not real difficult.
> Playing with the pilot is next on my list. It just seems ludicrous to
> spend an entire afternoon getting one jet sorted out. And jetting
> seems too rich all around. Putting around yesterday I used more gas
> than anyone else in the group of ten I was in. Hondas never have that
> problem.
>
> Gary M
> Team Cheesy Poof
>
For help with KTM jetting, THE man to speak to is Jeff Slavens at Slavens
Racing Designs in Colo Springs, 719-632-1456. He used to do the motors for
Team Husky back when Burleson was the man, and he knows all Euro bikes inside
and out. He's not bad with J-bikes either. Right now he sets up Jim Gray's
motors, and Jimmy is one fast KTM desert and enduro racer.
Now that the commercial is over, your problem specifically sounds like the
slide is too rich. This is common with the KTM's I've experienced, and no
amount of playing with the pilot jet, airscrew or needle will really solve the
problem. You just need a leaner slide. Call Jeff and he will tell you which
one you need. A tip: many shops can cut a slide 1 to 1.5 steps leaner by
enlarging the half-dome shape on the bottom, but you can't make them richer,
so yours can probably be cut.
BTW, suspension that soaks up big hits but is not plush on small stuff is very
fixable by a competent suspension shop. As long as I'm advertising, I will
say that John Old, the suspension guy at Slavens, knows WP, Marzo and Ohlins
inside and out. I think they charge $110 for suspension revalve and service,
and they will get it right.
Merrill Hoekstra, posting from Deja News after a long hiatus.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Kenneth Murphy
h.d...@usafa.af.mil wrote:
<Jeff and John's commercial snipped>
: BTW, suspension that soaks up big hits but is not plush on small stuff is very
: fixable by a competent suspension shop. As long as I'm advertising, I will
: say that John Old, the suspension guy at Slavens, knows WP, Marzo and Ohlins
: inside and out. I think they charge $110 for suspension revalve and service,
: and they will get it right.
: Merrill Hoekstra, posting from Deja News after a long hiatus.
I'll just add here, that Slavens and John are the *only* people to do
my suspension for the last 10+ years and I've had ZERO problems. I've
also had Jeff do a couple of motors, again, no problem.
One thing that Merrill left out: Slavens can also be reaced at 1-800-441-7904
BTW, welcome back Merrill. ;)
Team Almost Knitted Cheesy Poof
O aka Ken Murphy (kmur...@ford.com) Owner/Operator: 98YZ250
<M>erfman Thanks to: Jen, Erin, Apex Sports, DNA Racing, FMF Racing,
_/ \_ Boyesen/Twin Air, Sprocket Specialists and Works Connection
Disclaimer: Don't even pretend you thought I spoke for Visteon/Ford Micro
Jim Hall
TBOB <XRobert_...@ccm.ch.intel.com> wrote:
>Jim how do you know he is refereing to Barry?
>
I didn't. But after a minor rant about Phoenix KTM shops not being
responsive and catering only to pro riders etc, etc., I made the
assumption that he must be referring to the preeminent KTM dealer in
Phoenix - and the one who supports the most riders. FWIW, DIrt and
Street really isn't a dirt shop at all,(IMHO) and Bernies is way off
in Mesa somewhere.
But I musta been wrong, because he said so. "Gary" (Barry) has treated
him well, but he doesn't want to drive to North Phoenix (Hell, I drive
from Flagstaff). FWIW, I haven't had a whole lot of dealings with
Barry, but he has always seemed to treat me well, and I'm thinking of
having Premier do my suspension.
I was trying to nail down his complaint a little bit, and not come off
against Premier. If it was taken otherwise, I apologize
TBOB
No Jim I was just curious that's all.
Barry does good suspension work.
Have you gotten your jetting figured out on your 380?
TBob
"96" KTM 550
WLAboyz
Jim Hall wrote:
>(Hell, I drive
>from Flagstaff).
Do you take Hwy 93 from the 40?
I'm just asking because our family ranch is exactly at Hwy.93
Mile Marker 111. You can see it on the left, you have to turn left at
marker 110 1/2 to enter though.
Fred/IT250 (needs piston)
Tim/KX80
Chris/XR75
YZ100/loaner(looks like my ride for the weekend)
Jim Hall
wla...@aol.com (WLAboyz) wrote:
>
>Jim Hall wrote:
>>(Hell, I drive
>>from Flagstaff).
>Do you take Hwy 93 from the 40?
>I'm just asking because our family ranch is exactly at Hwy.93
>Mile Marker 111. You can see it on the left, you have to turn left at
>marker 110 1/2 to enter though.
Interstate 17 goes directly from Flag to Phx. Two- two1/2 hours one
way. If I were to drive over to Kingman (almost) on 40 to hit 93, it
would add nearly 3 hours to the one way trip.
I can't find my ADOT milepost map. Is MP111 down near Phoenix? -
Wickenberg. They are having the Desert Mountain Enduro there next
weekend. (Sure - that 100cc will make it -- trust me -- have I ever
lied to you??.....) <G>
WLAboyz
>Jim Hall wrote:
>I can't find my ADOT milepost map. Is MP111 down near Phoenix? -
No it is 18 miles south of Hwy 40.
How much are you asking for that KDX?
Fred/IT250
Tim/KX80
Chris/XR75
YZ100/loaner
'96KX100/ for sale
Jim Hall
wla...@aol.com (WLAboyz) wrote:
>>Jim Hall wrote:
>>I can't find my ADOT milepost map. Is MP111 down near Phoenix? -
>
>No it is 18 miles south of Hwy 40.
>How much are you asking for that KDX?
>
I'll e-mail you. There's times I can't mail AOL though, so if you
don't get the mail, ask me again.
Darcy Brockbank
dlk...@eudoramail.com writes:
>
> Both the cr and kx500's have been relatively unchanged for the last, oh,
> has slightly better desert suspension and stability while the CR turns
> and handles at slower speeds a bit better.
I actually think that it's about 9 years for the KX.
They did change the graphics, but I think that's it.
- db
--
"All riiight. Flaaame on! Ow ow ow ow ow! Flame off! Flame off!" - Dexter
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[77 KD100 (they still make it), 97 KLX300 w/Stroker mods]
Cam Mitchell
Darcy Brockbank <sam...@random.hasc.com> wrote:
>I actually think that it's about 9 years for the KX.
>They did change the graphics, but I think that's it.
Actually if you were to compare a '98 to a '89 you would see quite a
bit of difference <maybe not obvious and/or external, though>. They
have changed a lot of things, including suspension/brakes/engine, etc.
but over a period of 9 years when all the hype is over the latest and
greatest 250, who notices? :)
>- db
>
>--
> "All riiight. Flaaame on! Ow ow ow ow ow! Flame off! Flame off!" - Dexter
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> [77 KD100 (they still make it), 97 KLX300 w/Stroker mods]
--