smokeless 2 stroke
davi...@my-deja.com
NO smoke coming from any of the bikes on the track. I never noticed
this before, but i never looked for it either. Does your 2 stroke smoke
when riding (after warm up and off idle and all that)?
Mine does. My jetting is pretty close, meaning no blubbering, no
pinging, never foul a plug. I mix a synthetic oil at 50:1. top end
seems fairly clean, plug looks good, cant say about a clean powervalve
since my bike doesn't have one.
Is my jetting really that far off? i do not intend to re-jet or
anything, just wondering. I can always see a faint white stream coming
out my tailpipe. Is their jetting just that little bit better, or do
they get away with being on the lean edge since they are going to
rebuild every race?
later,
david.
85 CR500
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
guary...@my-deja.com
warm up not a single puff. I do think older bikes tend to smoke more,
even when perfectly jetted. Might be residual oil on the pipe or other
parts.
Guaryzzzpode
KTM 300 exc 98
ktmn...@my-deja.com
davi...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I'm watching the San Diego SX the other day, and i notice that there
is
> NO smoke coming from any of the bikes on the track. I never noticed
> this before, but i never looked for it either. Does your 2 stroke
smoke
> when riding (after warm up and off idle and all that)?
Well, 2 strokes smoke. You may have been looking at Kelly Smith and
Shayne King's KTM Thumpers. You probably can't see the smoke, due to
the fact that you are a ways away, you are looking down on the riders,
and the bright lights hide that stuff. If you plug is tan, then you
are jetted right. Jetting and smoke are two different things anyway,
but it sounds like you aren't using too much oil.
The pro's run race gas, which burns hotter, which will burn off the
oil better. Plus they rev the shit out of their bikes. I doubt you
rev the shit out of your CR500. On another note, you should get a
FMF pipe for that pig if you haven't already. The stock pipe is a
piece of crap. I had a '87 and the FMF made it ride like a BIG 250.
The stock pipe was like an on/off switch.
- Nealio
davi...@my-deja.com
> Well, 2 strokes smoke. You may have been looking at Kelly Smith and
> Shayne King's KTM Thumpers.
i wish. i could hear their bikes, but the tv camera's never showed them
for more than 5 seconds or so. I heard King mentioned once by the
announcer, that was it. i am interested in seeing how they do, now that
there are no 426's out there. No, i was watching the 2 strokes, and
they were not smoking at all. Maybe it is some optical illusion of
television or something, i was not there live.
> rev the shit out of your CR500. On another note, you should get a
> FMF pipe for that pig if you haven't already. The stock pipe is a
> piece of crap. I had a '87 and the FMF made it ride like a BIG 250.
> The stock pipe was like an on/off switch.
> - Nealio
dude, there is no need to go insulting my bike, i just asked a
question. I do use the stock pipe, i do not have a flywheel weight, and
i like the power delivery very much.
later,
david.
85 CR500 (all stock)
KTMNealio
> dude, there is no need to go insulting my bike, i just asked a
> question. I do use the stock pipe, i do not have a flywheel weight,
and
> i like the power delivery very much.
>
> later,
> david.
> 85 CR500 (all stock)
--
Hey bra, I wasn't insulting at all. I'm just telling you my experience.
Some people like the short-shift pipe. I personally don't. My '87
may have been different, becuase it dropped 55hp on ya at about 5000rpm
and then pooped out. I hated it. I had both a flywheel weight and the
FMF pipe to get it to ride like a normal 2 stroke. Anyway, good luck.
- Nealio
###################################################
##---------------- Aaron K. Neal ----------------##
##------ Software Engineer ** Boise, Idaho ------##
##------- Motocrosser - 1999 KTM 380 SX -------##
Jay C
> later,
> david.
> 85 CR500
^^^^^^^^^^
GAAAAAAACCCKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!
-jc
Memories ..... such sweet memories. ;-)
- Jeff
- B.A.W. 99 KX250
cbr-...@webtv.net
race bikes that get a new piston and ring every race! Do you do that
every time you ride..... i dont. My play bike is a 97CR 250 and she
smokes. You may also have carbon buildup in certain areas. Good Luck and
keep smokin cause that way you know your bikes not gonna blow up!
Rich Rohrich
<eate...@my-deja.com> wrote > Race gas runs cooler nealio.
For the 10,000th time, engines do NOT RUN COOLER with race gas, unless it
was detonating in the first place.
Scott is right. If you jet a two-stroke correctly there will be greyish
white dust at the tip of the silencer, even when running 24:1 . No smoke, no
spooge no drool. If it smokes it's not performing at it's best.
As long as I'm here.
PLUGS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE CHOCOLATE BROWN EITHER :-)
When you run a two-stroke engine hard the insulator should be whitish, with
MAYBE just a touch of tan . Myths, Myths, and more Myths, they never seem to
die.
--
Rich Rohrich
Applied Fluid Dynamics
ri...@dirtrider.net
www.eric-gorr.com
eate...@my-deja.com
Matt Porritt
as lean as they can.. just on the verge of seizing! and they prob run very
lean oil ratios of around 60-100:1
I know the Daryl King used to run like that as my local spanner man was his
mechanic before he moved overseas... mech didn't go because of his kids.
I don't know if any of you are familair with Kart racing but on the home
straight, if you want to pass someone, you lean the High jet way off and
you'll pass them like they're standing still.. but too lean for too long and
you're on the side of the track with a nipped motor..
It makes a difference..
--
Matt - (Broken) Big Chief Sitting Fool
----------
>From: davi...@my-deja.com
Scott F
maybe a light wisp upon cold start up. IMO, if a two stroke smokes after
warm up, it is either jetted rich, bogged all the time, or the pipe and
muffler is soaked with oil.
Scott F
MXOldtimer
side is this ok . People tell me its to lean but the bike runs great this way
ben walker
Matt Porritt
Using an egt probe and a head prob on sprint karts...our temps were always
lower with race gas and that was with perfect jetting pulling up to 22k
rpm..
----------
>From: "Rich Rohrich" <rroh...@interaccess.com>
In article <87dk7h$kt$1...@eve.enteract.com>, "Rich Rohrich"
Pekka Hänninen
>Really??
>Using an egt probe and a head prob on sprint karts...our temps were always
>lower with race gas and that was with perfect jetting pulling up to 22k
>rpm..
speed, so more heat was absorbed by the engine components and less was
transferred to the exhaust. Did you adjust the timing when you switched
between different fuels?
--
Pekka Hänninen, OH7XC
97 KTM125EXC, 95 RM125
davi...@my-deja.com
david.
85 CR500
Rich Rohrich
>
>
> > For the 10,000th time, engines do NOT RUN COOLER with race gas, unless
it
> > was detonating in the first place.
"Matt Porritt" <fu...@mindless.com> wrote in message
news:newscache$oxeepf$852@frodo...
> Really??
> Using an egt probe and a head prob on sprint karts...our temps were always
> lower with race gas and that was with perfect jetting pulling up to 22k
> rpm..
Generally speaking, when you use the correct race fuel for an engine you'll
end up with more efficient combustion which dumps less waste heat into the
exhaust and drops the EGT. At high engines speeds there usually isn't enough
time to vaporize pump fuels with their high temperature end points, but the
correct race fuel will (usually) burn faster and vaporize at a lower
temperature. The improved vaporization tends to have the same effect as
richening the mixture slightly and could potentially drop the cyl head
temperature. If you were to rejet for the differences you'd likely see the
same temps as before the race fuel (barring detonation effects). In these
cases the engine is actually producing MORE heat, it's just not dumping as
much into the expansion chamber. This is one of the problems I have with
EGT, it's not always obvious WHY the temperature is changing. If the delay
time of the race fuel is shortened then it will tend to have the same effect
as advancing the timing, again effecting the EGT and ultimately the pipe
tuning. So while you might see different readings on the guages, it's not
because race gas is "burning" cooler.
Regards,
Rich
Jay C
>
> For the 10,000th time, engines do NOT RUN COOLER with race gas, unless it
> was detonating in the first place.
> PLUGS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE CHOCOLATE BROWN EITHER :-)
> When you run a two-stroke engine hard the insulator should be whitish,
with
> MAYBE just a touch of tan . Myths, Myths, and more Myths, they never seem
to
> die.
Hee-hee... I just love it when Rich gets into a snit. BTW Rich, what DOES
it mean when a plug insulator has one colors on one side and another on the
other? When I was going through the jetting nightmare that was named KTM
SXR50, the plug was half white - half brown w/ the 72 main that the bike
originally came with (only one jet in the teensey thing) but the bike bogged
so bad you had to pedel with your feet until the main kicked in. With a 65
or 62, the bike ran OK with a fair amount of blubbering (especially on the
65) and the plug was black and fouls after a few hours. With a 58 the plug
is tan and the bike runs like a raped ape. So, how 'bout a guess as to why
the ludicrously rich 72 jet caused a half-white plug?
Jay
Wesley Grass
|>
|>
|> This is one of the problems I have with
|> EGT, it's not always obvious WHY the temperature is changing.
|>
|>
|> Rich
--
As an example, with aircraft engines equipped with EGT guages, a high
reading on one cylinder *may* be an indication of a burned or otherwise
leaking exhaust valve, and have absolutely nothing to do with fuel mixture.
Wasn't I supposed to get a book?
Wes
Dudley Cornman
> Really??
> Using an egt probe and a head prob on sprint karts...our temps were always
> lower with race gas and that was with perfect jetting pulling up to 22k
> rpm..
Are you actually using gas or alcohol?
dsc - acssysdsc
Fagan Pace
Fagan Pace
Matt Porritt
--
Matt - (Broken) Big Chief Sitting Fool
----------
>From: "Pekka Hänninen" <pekka.h...@NOSPAMpp3.inet.fi>
In article <gYxm4.72$7P3....@read2.inet.fi>, "Pekka Hänninen"
<pekka.h...@NOSPAMpp3.inet.fi> wrote:
> Matt Porritt wrote in message ...
>>Really??
>>Using an egt probe and a head prob on sprint karts...our temps were always
>>lower with race gas and that was with perfect jetting pulling up to 22k
>>rpm..
Rich Rohrich
"Jay C" <stu...@tp.net>
> Hee-hee... I just love it when Rich gets into a snit. BTW Rich, what DOES
> it mean when a plug insulator has one colors on one side and another on
the
> other? When I was going through the jetting nightmare that was named KTM
> SXR50, the plug was half white - half brown w/ the 72 main that the bike
> originally came with (only one jet in the teensey thing) but the bike
bogged
> so bad you had to pedel with your feet until the main kicked in. With a
65
> or 62, the bike ran OK with a fair amount of blubbering (especially on the
> 65) and the plug was black and fouls after a few hours. With a 58 the
plug
> is tan and the bike runs like a raped ape. So, how 'bout a guess as to
why
> the ludicrously rich 72 jet caused a half-white plug?
I've seen this most often on bikes with scavenging problems. It's tough to
say though if the jetting is WAY off though. So many problems can come from
really rich jetting. I wouldn't be suprised if the bike has really cobby
transfer ports, that leave a lot of exhaust residual behind. It's nearly
impossible to jet a bike like this.
Rich
Rich Rohrich
"Matt Porritt" <fu...@mindless.com> wrote<snip>
> But on a 2st engine.. if you change fuels between tests and the egt is
> reading lower its obviously less heat..
Less heat (or pressure) at the point of exhaust port opening, not
necessarily less heat during the entire expansion cycle. If the pressure
curve changes during the expansion cycle due to a change in ignition delay,
or a change in trapped fuel/air ratio it will be reflected as a change in
EGT, but without taking into account everything that preceded the
temperature change, it would be difficult to make a definitive call on the
causes and effects.
Uwe Hale
> But on a 2st engine.. if you change fuels between tests and the egt is
> reading lower its obviously less heat..
Isn't less heat a bad thing? More heat = more power?
Uwe Hale - 99 GasGas EC200, 89 YZ250
http://www.rrdr.org
http://www.smackovermotorsports.com
Matt Porritt
comparison to the rest of the cylinders ... (trust me!.. I spend alot of
time accepting these alarms on the ship!& changing injectors :))
But on a 2st engine.. if you change fuels between tests and the egt is
Also you can tune using the egt... therer is a temp with sprint karts that
is used as an indictor.. you never lean it out past this temp as you will
seize.. using the egt, it allows you to go alot leaner than the guy next to
you without one..
What a rant.. brob because its 9:15am Sun morn! :))
----------
>From: wes...@otis.arraycomm.com (Wesley Grass)
In article <FpFA7...@arraycomm.com>, wes...@otis.arraycomm.com (Wesley
Matt Porritt
----------
>From: acss...@acs.eku.edu (Dudley Cornman)
In article <K4YSfD...@acs.eku.edu>, acss...@acs.eku.edu (Dudley
Matt Porritt
The standard KT100 is good for 15500
----------
>From: pace...@webtv.net (Fagan Pace)
In article <14100-38...@storefull-151.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
Uwe Hale
> Yes and no.. Why make watercooled bikes if more heat is better??
Consistant temperature allows for tighter clearances. Hotter temps allow the
fuel to vaporize more. Like starting your bike when it's cold.
We were talking about exhaust gas temperature anyways, not motor temps. If
switching to a fuel that produces less heat, doesn't that indicate that less
energy (BTU) is being provided by the fuel and the motor is producing less
HP? So are these folks that run race gas and notice a lower exhaust gas
temperature actually loosing HP? Or maybe the race gas just burns slower and
the unburnt raw fuel cools the exhaust? Or maybe the race gas vaporizes
worse and you get cooler, unburnt fuel in the exhaust. Or maybe it burns
quicker and the burn cycle doesn't continue into the exhaust. Or...???
Rich Rohrich
"Uwe Hale" wrote >
> We were talking about exhaust gas temperature anyways, not motor temps.
If
> switching to a fuel that produces less heat, doesn't that indicate that
less
> energy (BTU) is being provided by the fuel and the motor is producing less
> HP? So are these folks that run race gas and notice a lower exhaust gas
> temperature actually loosing HP? Or maybe the race gas just burns slower
and
> the unburnt raw fuel cools the exhaust? Or maybe the race gas vaporizes
> worse and you get cooler, unburnt fuel in the exhaust. Or maybe it burns
> quicker and the burn cycle doesn't continue into the exhaust. Or...???
Generally speaking when the fuel burns slower or the timing is retarded, it
has the sameeffect, peak pressure and temperature come later in the
expansion stroke so more heat is dumped into the exhaust. This is why
advanced ignition systems retard the timing at high speeds, to dump more
heat into the exhaust . That extra heat effectively shortens the tuned
length of the pipe and helps extend the usable rpm range.
Race fuels designed for high rpm use tend to have narrow, lower temperature
vaporization ranges, components with hydrogen/carbon ratios that permit
faster flame speeds, and lower specific gravities. The total energy tends
to be the same, so the difference in exhaust temps would tend to be related
to richer trapped air/fuel ratios, and peak pressures that occur earlier in
the expansion cycle due to chemistry differences. By using some fairly
specific fuel additives I've found it necessary to retard the timing on some
engines to prevent knock even when using very high octane components. The
pressure rise of the fuel is so early that the standard timing setup for
slower fuels will overwhelm even some really high octane blends. EGT is
pretty tricky to use without a whole lot of other info to determine the
cause of a temperature change. I've seen lots of theories about EGT changes,
but many of them ignore a lot of basic combustion physics.
Joseph Siegfried
Rich Rohrich
"Joseph Siegfried" wrote
> What is the delay time of racefuel and how do you shorten it?
Delay time varies based on the chemistry of the fuel. You can change the
delay time with some of the oxygenated additives, but you would usually be
better off buying a feul specifically blended for the application.
Matt Porritt
the race... we played with watercooled exh headers and that improved the
last 1/3 of the race when power dropped off but wasn't legal!
--
Matt - (Broken) Big Chief Sitting Fool
----------
>From: Uwe Hale <ha...@texas.net>
Redden
Rowdy
from carbon dust at the metal shell but bright white at the insulator?
I didn't foul it, i put in a hotter one for winter commuting.
I were doing many short trips in the city at temps below freezing
(both radiators are still covered with cardbox paper)
TIA
Rowdy
WRZ400F
Rich Rohrich
"Rowdy" < wrote
Peter,
My guess would be, running on the choke more because of the temps allows
soot to build up on the steel shell, it was on the ceramic as well, but the
hotter heat range was able to keep the ceramic clean, AS IT SHOULD :-) The
shell dumps heat much quicker than the ceramic, so it will show more
buildup. Sounds like you got it setup really well.
Rich
ben walker
you heard/seen/think about Redline oils and there two-stroke race oil in
particular.I use it in my sled and my 200 mxc last year with good
results although I used Klotz previously and had good luck with that.
btw I think the Klotz burned cleaner. thank you bw
Rich Rohrich
"ben walker" wrote
> Rich, I know this has nothing to do with this thread but.. Whats have
> you heard/seen/think about Redline oils and there two-stroke race oil in
> particular.I use it in my sled and my 200 mxc last year with good
> results although
I've never used it and never had enough interest to pay much attention to
it.
I used Klotz previously and had good luck with that.
> btw I think the Klotz burned cleaner
I used Techniplate in the past on air cooled RD350 drag motors and was
resonably pleased with it, but I always felt I got better results, power and
wear wise using Castrol R at 20:1 . I haven't tried it in later model water
cooled engines.
ben walker
there web site about increasing hp etc. This fact alone kind of scares
me as to the quality of their product. I was hoping that you had some
first hand knowledge about their product and you could give me some
insight. I did see a article in snowtech by Kevin Cameron in which he
talks about Redline and one other oil (I think spectro)haveing problems
seating rings when used as a break in oil,this tells me it must be a
pretty good oil with respect to film strength.In the same article he
also talks about having problems with Belray causeing wear on lower end
bearings.I do know that H1R is a very clean burning oil because I used
it in my 96 Rm 250 with good results.BTW I agree with your thoughts on
Mobil 1 being a good oil.My father has a truck (chev 4.3) at his plant
that has 175000 miles on it and it still does not burn oil except a
small puff on start up with no actual decline on the dipstick. bw
Sadfer
> a GOOD disertation on
pre-mix oil. Lower end lube, top end lube, break
in, clean burning......Jeez, I WANT to run good
stuff for my application but it's hard to sort
thru all the noise.
Every time the thread pops up here it is filled
with personal half truths and idle brand
loyalties.
I know it's way too much to expect the popular
magazines to do an in depth study on ANY subject
including this one. Any guru's willing to help us
out ? Can anyone point me off to RELIABLE info
?
Rich Rohrich
"ben walker" wrote
> The reason I asked was because they make some pretty wild claims on
> there web site about increasing hp etc. This fact alone kind of scares
> me as to the quality of their product.
As far as I can tell they haven't developed a bullshit filter for the
internet at this point, so anyone can say anything they want :-) I've
crossed paths with a few guys in roadracing that swear by Redline, but after
hearing them parrot back the marketing lines, I tend to take it with a grain
of salt. They seem similar to the Amsoil zealots out there. I'm sure they
are good oils, but they aren't magic. The few plugs I've seem that run
Redline make me think it does some weird things in the combustino chamber.
Once you get past the basic lubrication requirements (and most good
synthetics are fine), the way an oil effects combustion is a large part of
the GOOD or BAD of them .
> I was hoping that you had some
> first hand knowledge about their product and you could give me some
> insight. I did see a article in snowtech by Kevin Cameron in which he
> talks about Redline and one other oil (I think spectro)haveing problems
> seating rings when used as a break in oil,this tells me it must be a
> pretty good oil with respect to film strength.
This tends to be true of any synthetic oil. I always break in new engines on
dino oil and then switch to the slippery stuff.
> In the same article he
> also talks about having problems with Belray causeing wear on lower end
> bearings.I do know that H1R is a very clean burning oil because I used
> it in my 96 Rm 250 with good results.
I agree with him on this. I've never been really impressed with the parts
that I've seen that were run on Belray. It could be caused by the lean
ratios, but regardless I wouldn't spend my money on it.
There are lots of good oils out there. From an engine protection standpoint
the major synthetics should do fine for most people. My preferences tend to
lean more towards how they burn.
ben walker
have to say about this subject? Does he favor a certain brand? And
finally what do you mean by "how they burn"? Is this a referance toward
cleanliness or something that has a effect on the actual combustion
process? Thank you very much for cutting some of the fog down concerning
this subject.Not bad for a 4 stroke man.LOL. btw I thought that
comment about Pro Circuit on the link section of Erics page was funny as
hell " a company that sells t-shirts with two cycle motors on them" LOL
bw
MXOldtimer
>lean more towards how they burn
Which oils do you tend to lean to ?
Doug
Rich Rohrich
"ben walker" wrote >
> With that being said What oil do would/do you use?
When I did a lot of two-stroke stuff I felt like I understood the way
Yamalube R would react with different fuels and different ratios, and I was
always happy with the the wear we saw on really highly stressed engine
parts.
> What does Eric Gorr have to say about this subject?
I asked him earlier today and he takes the pragmatic approach of
recommending any quality oil that is easy to get no matter where you are.
Like Yamalube, Spectro, etc
> Does he favor a certain brand?
When pushed he'll say Spectro. Before I settled on Yamalube I was pretty
much a Spectro fan as well. As for ratios, I'm not even going to open that
stupid can of worms again.
> And finally what do you mean by "how they burn"? Is this a referance
toward
> cleanliness or something that has a effect on the actual combustion
> process?
It's effects on the combustion process are my major concern , but the two
tend to be related. I'm going to get a chance to play with more two-strokes
this year so I'm going to try out Mobil 1 MXT, and Phillips XaMax synthetic
(which they recommend running at 14:1 to 20:1 for High Load running
hehehehe)
--
Rich Rohrich
Applied Fluid Dynamics
ri...@dirtrider.net
ben walker
findings when you get done testing the Phillips and Mobil products.Btw
is that phillips Synjex synthetic you are talking about? I do have some
expiereance with Phillips injex in my my sleds.It seemed to burn pretty
dirty but it is reputed to be good oil by a lot of people. bw
Rich Rohrich
"ben walker" <bwa...@nmu.edu> wrote
> btw I thought that
> comment about Pro Circuit on the link section of Erics page was funny as
> hell " a company that sells t-shirts with two cycle motors on them" LOL
>
Don't you just LOVE the internet ?
> Rich, Thanks for giving me some insight on this issue.Please post your
> findings when you get done testing the Phillips and Mobil products.Btw
> is that phillips Synjex synthetic you are talking about?
I do have some
> expiereance with Phillips injex in my my sleds.It seemed to burn pretty
> dirty but it is reputed to be good oil by a lot of people. bw
No, Xamax is a racing specific oil from Phillips. The other oils you mention
are more general purpose oils and wouldn't be my choice for a race but, but
should give good results in less stressful applications that can handle
leaner ratios.
ben walker
ben walker
Rich,Unleaded race gas? I know a lot of a few guys who tried VP no lead
and didnt like it. I dont know what the problem was. These guys are not
engineers though so I would take there findings with a grain of salt.I
have ran phillips race gas (leaded BR-5?) in the past and had good
results with it.It did seem to leave a yellowish residue on the plugs
and it had an acidic smell that really made the eyes water.Vp c-12
seemed to give me better low end though.I guess the distillation curve
of the c-12 suited my application(big bore Snowmobile) better than the
phillips BR.Well I suppose I will let you go,I got a damn chemistry test
tommorow so I better study some more.If we only talked about race gas
and two cycle combustion in chemistry class.... bw
Dave Dude
<rroh...@interaccess.com> wrote:
snip
> Phillips XaMax synthetic
>(which they recommend running at 14:1 to 20:1 for High Load running
>hehehehe)
>
>
I heard that! Some people got nerve, I swear. :-)
Dave Dude
96yz250
Jay C
>
> There are lots of good oils out there. From an engine protection
standpoint
to
> lean more towards how they burn.
I always thought that the characteristic that made 2-stroke oil appropriate
for the application was its resistance to burning. Is that not correct?
Jay