Nikasil, how long will it last?
rpfi...@webspan.net
last?
2. How frequently should pistons be changed?
3. Can Nikasil bores be honed with typical honing or "deglazing"
tools?
4. What is the secret to getting the most life from a Nikasil
cylinder?
5. Are there any good alternatives to replacing a Nikasil cylinder
once it's beat? Do these alternatives make the cylinder good as new?
thanks in advance for the advice
SX Fans
From: rpfi...@webspan.net
Date: Tue, Nov 3, 1998 4:33 AM
Message-id: <363e286...@news.webspan.net>
>1. How long will a typical Nikasil, or similarly plated, cylinder
>last?
I dont know.
>2. How frequently should pistons be changed?
I dont know for sure on that either.
>3. Can Nikasil bores be honed with typical honing or "deglazing"
>tools?
Acording to my bikes book, no. But my 1996 KX 100cc cylinder was "cleaned up"
(deglazed) at VSK in Victervill Ca. (autherized Kawasaki & Susuki Dealer).
I asked the repair man at Rivirside Kawasaki also, he said "no way!" Then I
told him VSK did mine, then he said it was "OK" I did not like it. Seems like
they lied.
>4. What is the secret to getting the most life from a Nikasil
>cylinder?
Not sure, the KX still dont run just right, yet.
I am guesing here, Replace the piston rings in the "top end" every 20 to 60
hours (of riding time), & replace piston every year.
I hope someone knows for sure, will anserw you.
What motor is it anyway?
>5. Are there any good alternatives to replacing a Nikasil cylinder
>once it's beat? Do these alternatives make the cylinder good as new?
I have not tried them, so I dont know.
>thanks in advance for the advice
Try leting RMD know what motor & type of use it gets.
Good luck............
SX Fans................
MX Tuner
>I dont know.
>I dont know for sure on that either.
>Not sure,
>I am guesing here,
>I hope someone knows for sure, will anserw you.
>I have not tried them, so I dont know.
Hey, that was helpful.
MX Tuner
MX Tuner
>1. How long will a typical Nikasil, or similarly plated, cylinder
>last?
Depends on how well the top end is maintained and how clean you keep
your air filters. A loose piston will accelerate wear.
>2. How frequently should pistons be changed?
Depends on how you are riding. Technically, as often as the
manufacturer recommends. Normally you can get away with substantially
less often.
>3. Can Nikasil bores be honed with typical honing or "deglazing"
>tools?
I've heard both from "reliable" sources. I prefer to use a
Scotch-Brite pad and clean it thoroughly. This is the safest way.
>4. What is the secret to getting the most life from a Nikasil
>cylinder?
Proper servicing and frequent air filter servicing. Oh, and stay away
from outboard 2 stroke oil.
>5. Are there any good alternatives to replacing a Nikasil cylinder
>once it's beat?
There are a couple good replaters here in the US. This is definitely
the best cost effective method of repairing a damaged cylinder.
>Do these alternatives make the cylinder good as new?
Replating, yes. Resleeving, no.
MX Tuner
Moody kopp
the same barrel for 4 years. I would change out the piston and rings yearly-
twice if I was riding alot. I know that sounds really anal, but the bike ran
like new until the day I sold it.
As for clean up, mx tuner said it right. I would pull the barrel, mic it to
make sure it was still in spec, then gently clean it up with a scotchbrite pad,
rinse with acetone to clean it out and reassy.
You cannot hone a plated cylinder. I would probably spring for a new one from
the dealer if it was needed. Again major expense, but this is your bike, and
nothing but the best for you- right?
Also, remember to deburr the ports before assy of any new barrel, don't trust
the factory on this! Word of experience.
Mike
XR250
XR600
SX Fans
sxf...@aol.com (SX Fans) wrote:
Hey, that was helpful.
MX Tuner
YEA? YOU LEFT OUT MY EXPEIRENCE SOMEONE MAY HAVE WANTED TO READ. YOUR SHOWING
YOURSELF. YOU ACTIONS ARE NEEDLES.
MAYBE YOU CAN FIND SOMEOTHER POST, FROM A BEGINER, TO MAKE FUN WITH SINCERE
QUESTIONS OF POWERBANDS OR OLD WORN-OUT TRAIL BIKES.
SX FANS...........
Northwest Sleeve
Repairing Nikasil isn't always the best solution to a problem. Without
knowing the cause or type of damage to the original cylinder, I would be
reluctant to say that repairing is the only solution.
Our service department sleeves more dirt bikes than any other 2 or 4 stroke
recreational motor. Provided they are re-assembled correctly and broken in
properly, a sleeved cylinder can perform just as well as OEM, sometime
better depending on the type of use and demands of the rider.
Northwest Sleeve
Service & Tech
www.nwsleeve.com
MX Tuner wrote in message <364617bc...@news.mindspring.com>...
Hal Voges
SX Fans wrote in message <19981103144109...@ng22.aol.com>...
Actually, Tuner posted exactly what I was thinking when I read your (SX
FANS) post. I was thinking, if this guy doesn't know a damn thing about the
questions being asked then why the hell is he bothering to post?
Also, maybe nobody cares about your experiences:) Even if they did it's
almost impossible to understand what the hell you are writing about. How
about learning to use a computer/news reader/spell checker/grammar
checker/keyboard before posting your next message. Then at least we'll be
able to read some of the meaningless sh*t you post.
Hal
rpfi...@webspan.net
>last?
Depends on how well the top end is maintained and how clean you keep
your air filters. A loose piston will accelerate wear.
* Assuming piston clearances are kept within tolerance and air filters
changed twice a day, can you estimate cylinder life in engine hours or
amount of fuel consumed?
>2. How frequently should pistons be changed?
Depends on how you are riding. Technically, as often as the
manufacturer recommends. Normally you can get away with substantially
less often.
* Please give me an idea on how often. You can assume any particular
level of riding that you have experience with, just let me know what
level of riding your estimate is based on.
>3. Can Nikasil bores be honed with typical honing or "deglazing"
>tools?
I've heard both from "reliable" sources. I prefer to use a
Scotch-Brite pad and clean it thoroughly. This is the safest way.
* Sounds like a Nikasil cylinder doesn't need a honed surface (to hold
oil) in order to perform well. I've never seen a new Nikasil
cylinder... are they polished smooth from the factory?
>4. What is the secret to getting the most life from a Nikasil
>cylinder?
Proper servicing and frequent air filter servicing. Oh, and stay away
from outboard 2 stroke oil.
* Excellent advice. How is Nikasil's resiliance to corrosion? How
frequently should a Nikasil engine be fogged for storage (every ride
or just over months of inactivity)?
>5. Are there any good alternatives to replacing a Nikasil cylinder
>once it's beat?
There are a couple good replaters here in the US. This is definitely
the best cost effective method of repairing a damaged cylinder.
* Thanks to everyone for such an interesting and informative
discussion!
rpfi...@webspan.net
How easy is it to chip off Nikasil when deburing?
When even a small amount of Nikasil is accidentally chipped away from
the bore, is the bore totally ruined? How much missing Nikasil can be
tolerated by the engine before having to service/replace the bore?
Assuming Nikasil is very hard, is it correct to say that loose pieces
of it in the engine can severely score a piston or the rest of the
bore to the point of piston siezure?
rpfi...@webspan.net
<lin...@nwsleeve.com> wrote:
>This is great advice to an excellent question.
>
>Repairing Nikasil isn't always the best solution to a problem. Without
>knowing the cause or type of damage to the original cylinder, I would be
>reluctant to say that repairing is the only solution.
>
>Our service department sleeves more dirt bikes than any other 2 or 4 stroke
>recreational motor. Provided they are re-assembled correctly and broken in
>properly, a sleeved cylinder can perform just as well as OEM, sometime
>better depending on the type of use and demands of the rider.
Aren't the advantages of Nikasil the increase life of the bore and
improved heat transfer to the cooling passages?
If so what are the advantages to sleeving a, previously, plated
cylinder?
When does "the cause or type of damage to the original cylinder"
indicate that replating a cylinder is a bad idea?
bill lawrence
catch some flack for this, but you should hone the cylinder every time
you replace the rings. you CANNOT use a regular stone hone though. you
must use whats called a ball hone. it looks like a big bottle brush with
little balls on the end of the bristles. it should only be slightly
bigger than the bore (less than ".200) and run 5 or 6 revolutions. if
you go buy a new cylinder it will have a "cross hatch" pattern on the
cylinder walls. after the plating process the cylinder walls are smooth,
and they must be honed to achieve the cross hatch to promote proper ring
seating and lubrication. the rule of thumb ive found to be a reliable
indicator as far as when to service the top end is a compression test.
when compression falls about 10% its time for new rings (at least). just
because you "should" hone every time doesnt mean you have to though. (i
dont) if the cross hatch looks ok, its like tuner said, hot soapy water
and a scotch brite, then the almighty brake cleaner.
MX Tuner
>>1. How long will a typical Nikasil, or similarly plated, cylinder
>>last?
>Depends on how well the top end is maintained and how clean you keep
>your air filters. A loose piston will accelerate wear.
>* Assuming piston clearances are kept within tolerance and air filters
>changed twice a day, can you estimate cylinder life in engine hours or
>amount of fuel consumed?
A cylinder can last indefinitely if cared for properly.
>>2. How frequently should pistons be changed?
>Depends on how you are riding. Technically, as often as the
>manufacturer recommends. Normally you can get away with substantially
>less often.
>* Please give me an idea on how often. You can assume any particular
>level of riding that you have experience with, just let me know what
>level of riding your estimate is based on.
I would replace a 125 piston after about 15 hours of hard riding. A
250 should be able to go about twice that. A 500 twice again.
>>3. Can Nikasil bores be honed with typical honing or "deglazing"
>>tools?
>I've heard both from "reliable" sources. I prefer to use a
>Scotch-Brite pad and clean it thoroughly. This is the safest way.
>* Sounds like a Nikasil cylinder doesn't need a honed surface (to hold
>oil) in order to perform well. I've never seen a new Nikasil
>cylinder... are they polished smooth from the factory?
Nope. They do have what appear to be (or similar to) hone marks.
>*How is Nikasil's resiliance to corrosion?
Pretty good.
>How
>frequently should a Nikasil engine be fogged for storage (every ride
>or just over months of inactivity)?
Even after months of inactivity, a 2 stroke internals will still have
a layer of oil sufficient to provide corrosion protection for at least
a few months (over the winter?).
MX Tuner
Uwe Hale
> rpfirley, nikasil (and other types of plating) are very durable. i might
> catch some flack for this,
I guess I'll be the first.
> but you should hone the cylinder every time
> you replace the rings. you CANNOT use a regular stone hone though. you
> must use whats called a ball hone.
I guess you missed that recent post where the guy seized his motor in about 30
seconds after using a ball hone.
>after the plating process the cylinder walls are smooth,
>and they must be honed to achieve the cross hatch to promote proper ring
>seating and lubrication.
From what I've read, the rings are designed and manufactured to break in with a
smooth plated bore. No honing needed. The rings for a steel liner are
different and require a rough surface to break in. Apples and Oranges.<g>
Uwe Hale - 89 YZ250WR, 99...
Thanks to: Team LCS, www.lcsracing.com | MX South, m...@pipeline.com
Original post by Uwe Hale Copyright (c) 1998, All rights reserved
DSPARKX2
mxt...@mindspring.com (MX Tuner) writes:
>
>>I dont know.
>>I dont know for sure on that either.
>>Not sure,
>>I am guesing here,
>>I hope someone knows for sure, will anserw you.
>>I have not tried them, so I dont know.
>
>Hey, that was helpful.
>
>
Gosh, Tuner, at least he correctly quoted the post he was responding
to, and he even turned off the caps lock key. We do have some
progress by golly. <G>
-dave-
yz125
MX Tuner
>> but you should hone the cylinder every time
>> you replace the rings. you CANNOT use a regular stone hone though. you
>> must use whats called a ball hone.
>I guess you missed that recent post where the guy seized his motor in about 30
>seconds after using a ball hone.
Just playing devils advocate here, but we don't "know" that that is
what caused the seizure.
I prefer to know as many facts as possible before throwing stones.
MX Tuner
Uwe Hale
> Just playing devils advocate here, but we don't "know" that that is
> what caused the seizure.
>
> I prefer to know as many facts as possible before throwing stones
>
BTW, You seem to have access to a variety of manuals. What do the majority say
regarding honing and piston/ring replacement?
MX Tuner
>BTW, You seem to have access to a variety of manuals. What do the majority say
>regarding honing and piston/ring replacement?
Manual (factory repair manual) for Kawasaki KX 125/250 '94-'98:
"If any of the cylinder inside diameter measurements exceeds the
service limit, the cylinder must be replaced with a new one since the
Electro-Fusion cylinder cannot be bored or honed."
The factory manual for a KDX 200 '89-94 says the exact same thing.
Manual (owners manual- covers repairs) for Suzuki RMX 250 '96:
"Note:Fine-ceramics has been plated on the cylinder bore.
Fine-ceramics plated cylinder can not be modified such as boring or
honing."
The Honda owners (and repair) manual for a '94 CR 250 doesn't mention
anything about honing and/or boring. My guess is they would mention
honing if it were recommended. They go into detail about decarbonizing
the head, power valves and ports but make no mention of further
preparation for new piston/rings.
The Yamaha factory repair manual for a '90 YZ 125/250 mention nothing
except the 125 cylinder cannot be bored. I don't remember but this
leads me to believe the 250 had a steel sleeve.
MX Tuner
Nova120
>Uwe Hale <ha...@sct-inc.com> wrote:
>
>>BTW, You seem to have access to a variety of manuals. What do the majority
> say
>>regarding honing and piston/ring replacement?
>
>Manual (factory repair manual) for Kawasaki KX 125/250 '94-'98:
>
>"If any of the cylinder inside diameter measurements exceeds the
>service limit, the cylinder must be replaced with a new one since the
>Electro-Fusion cylinder cannot be bored or honed."
My Polaris snowmobile manual says to use a soft stone in a normal hone.
I've just deglazed and roughened up the surface with a little medium to fine
grit sandpaper. Honing with a hard stone is bad. Dunno about the ball hone.
The local snowmobile shop didn't even want to touch my cylinders for fear of
damaging the nikasil.
BTW, the Kaw electro-fusion process is not the same coating as nikasil as far
as I know. Also nikasil is becoming less popular in snowmobiles except for
racing models. They're trending back to sleeves.
Jon
jlk...@hotmail.com
'95 KX 310
Dennis Mesward
MX Tuner wrote in message <3643788c...@news.mindspring.com>...
>
>The Yamaha factory repair manual for a '90 YZ 125/250 mention nothing
>except the 125 cylinder cannot be bored. I don't remember but this
>leads me to believe the 250 had a steel sleeve.
>
>MX Tuner
If my memory serves me correctly, Yamaha first used a Nik cylinder on the
250 in '91.
Denny
Zag
>250 in '91.
>
>Denny
>
Ray
> >
> Suzuki has been using it since 1972.
>
> Lee
--------
Lee,
Enlighten us on Suzuki's use of nikasil before the late 80's.
Thanks
Ray
bill lawrence
been replated once, by Forward Motion. upon return of my newly plated
cylinder i called forward motion and spoke with Eric Gorr about caring
for my new cylinder (i had it ported at the same time) and he told me
that plated cylinders should be honed but you have to use extreme
caution getting the proper hone. the static hone diameter should be no
more than ".200 larger than the bore dia. and the grit no rougher than
360. once you have the proper hone for your cylinder, when you do use it
it should only be run 5 or 6 revolutions. as far as different rings for
differend bore surfaces, i think youll find that to be a bunch of crap.
john jackson
want to run in your engine. molly and iron rings do not use the same
grit stones, i do hone my plated cyl. very lightly and have had no
troubles from it. my kids 88 kx125 still has the cyl. that it came with
and they run the snot out of it, we rering it 2 times a year and new
piston over the winter.
Bill Gearhart
billgear
Dennis Mesward wrote:
> MX Tuner wrote in message <3643788c...@news.mindspring.com>...
> >
> >The Yamaha factory repair manual for a '90 YZ 125/250 mention nothing
> >except the 125 cylinder cannot be bored. I don't remember but this
> >leads me to believe the 250 had a steel sleeve.
> >
> >MX Tuner
>
Uwe Hale
>Manual (factory repair manual) for Kawasaki KX 125/250 '94-'98:
>Electro-Fusion cylinder cannot be bored or honed."
>The factory manual for a KDX 200 '89-94 says the exact same thing.
>Manual (owners manual- covers repairs) for Suzuki RMX 250 '96:
>Fine-ceramics plated cylinder can not be modified such as boring or
>honing."
>
>The Yamaha factory repair manual for a '90 YZ 125/250 mention nothing
>except the 125 cylinder cannot be bored. I don't remember but this
>leads me to believe the 250 had a steel sleeve.
The 89s are steel so that wouldn't surprise me. Thanks for the info on the
manuals. Seems like this topic comes up pretty often. I was just wondering
what the factories say about it. Maybe it will help clear things up for
others too.
Uwe Hale - 89 YZ250WR
MX Tuner
>As far as different rings for
>differend bore surfaces, i think youll find that to be a bunch of crap.
Not according to the warning which come with Wiseco rings.
MX Tuner
KDX Kawboy
probably wrong, but I think Kawaski and KTM were the first to use it their dirt
bikes and I think KTM beat kawasaki by a year.
In honing a Nikasil piston great care must be taken. The goal is to clean off
the glazing, which speeds up the seating of the new rings. It is a job best
left for an artist that understands how to run a boring machine. Setting up
the machine to do the job right is vital. When asking around about honing a
Nikasil cylinder the experts I talked to said absolutley not to use a ball hone
- no way to adjust clearences of the hone so it only breaks the glaze.
With proper care and maintanance a Nikasil cylinder should last the life of the
bike. Proper care means getting anal about cleaning the air filter, ring and
piston replacement. Keep the air filter clean, grease the base of the air
cleaner. If any dirt/dust gets past the it can mean instant death to the
lining. You want to replace the rings and piston well before there clearances
reach service limits. Excessive wear of these parts can result in in a broken
ring, or piston slap taking out the lining as well.
Patric Schmid, kdxk...@aol.com
RonDwSmith
>The Honda owners (and repair) manual for a '94 CR 250 doesn't mention
>anything about honing and/or boring. My guess is they would mention
>honing if it were recommended. They go into detail about decarbonizing
>the head, power valves and ports but make no mention of further
>preparation for new piston/rings.
I checked the Honda service manual for my '92 CR500 that has a iron liner,
and we all agree they should be honed, and there is no mention of honing it
either.
According to my references Honda used a "hard crome" process in 1978 on the
CR250, this is not the same as Nikasil though.
Kawasaki uses a different process (electrofusion) where they explode 15 wires
inside the cylinder, a little over half of them made of pure molybdenum, the
rest from high corbon steel. The wires are hit with a 15,000 volt charge that
cuases the wires to gasify, the gas adheres to the cylinder walls and cools.
The cylinder is honed to the proper dimensions.
Nikasil is made up of nickel and silicon carbide. Mostly nickle as the
silicone carbide only makes up about 4% of the total.
The moral of this story is that all Nikasil is not Nikasil.
--Ron.
Ron Smith
'93YZ250
'92CR500
'85XT350
...etc.
Dennis Mesward
Yamaha had one of the higher quality steel sleeves. It was a little
"harder" than many of the other bikes'.
Denny
Bill Gearhart wrote in message <364139C1...@pacbell.net>...
>I own a 1990 YZ250 and it does not have sleeve....It'snot boreable
>
>billgear
>
>Dennis Mesward wrote:
>
>> MX Tuner wrote in message <3643788c...@news.mindspring.com>...
>> >
>> >The Yamaha factory repair manual for a '90 YZ 125/250 mention nothing
>> >except the 125 cylinder cannot be bored. I don't remember but this
>> >leads me to believe the 250 had a steel sleeve.
>> >
Tim Shann
with a Zundap engine that had a plated liner also. Don't recall the year, '70 or
so. It was one of the blue ones.
KDX Kawboy wrote:
James Ray Crenshaw
Japanese bikes do NOT have Nikasil cylinders. They use a THIN electrofusion
process which is NOT the same.
You can hone a genuine Nikasil cylinder till the cows come home, though you
probably don't need to. Nikasil will gradually wear with honing, but a LOT
less than a regular cast-iron liner. It takes LOTS of honing to do much of
anything to a Nikasil cylinder. Japanese bike riders (no offense intended
here, most of my bikes are Japanese), do NOT try this honing thing on an
electrofusion cylinder. The coating is prone to flaking off around the
ports... from what I've seen when people ill-advisedly tried the dingle-ball
hone routine on one.
You can SIEZE a Nikasil cylinder TIGHT, whop the piston out, hone till
clean, re-fit and run it again.
The Japanese use a WIRE (much like exploding the wire) to coat their
cylinders. The Nikasil process uses a ROD. I don't know how thick Nikasil
is, nor if it's still as thick as it was back in the mid-1980s when I was
around it... but I'd guess at LEAST 12-15 thousandths of an inch. This was
on Cagiva dirt bikes, which are now called Husqvarna.
Nikasil is amazing stuff. I cannot imagine ever **wearing** it out, even on
a street bike. It would truly take a very long time.
Ray in SC
SX Fans
>From: Tim Shann <yz...@rocketmail.com>
>Date: Sat, Nov 7, 1998 7:03 PM
>Message-id: <36449981...@rocketmail.com>
>KDX Kawboy wrote:
<==================>
SX Fans (Stan) Here,
I also had a 125cc Rickman with a Zundap engine in it. I was told the cylinder
was "chrome plated". I was wondering if it was really "chrome" or something
like it, Maybe Nikasil? Does anyone know for sure out here in RMD?
The looks of the Rickman was very nice. Although the "body" color is blue, at
night in the parking lot, it looks purple.
Also had a shop give me a 125cc Super Combat Wombat (when they first came out)
to race, but it seized , Motor "froze" during "break-in". To make this short,
I returned the Hodaka. The Hodaka had a neat cylinder surface trick on it also.
But I do not remember just exactly what it was. Anyone know this also?
SX Fans.......
KDX Kawboy
eventually dropped beacuse it turned out to bve a maintanence nightmare.
Patric Schmid, kdxk...@aol.com