OT questioin - Jet pumps
JayC
(malfunctioning) jet-pump system. The pump is short-cycling between
25 and 40 PSI, according to the pump-mounted gauge. The pressure
increases rapidly, with pump on-time only a couple of seconds.
Pressure 'bleeds' back down once the pump kicks off in 5 seconds or
so. I figured that the pressure tank (external) must be waterlogged,
but gave it the 'knock test' and it appears to be fine, with the air/
water line halfway up or so.
While I've owned (and replaced) a number of well systems in the past,
jet pump systems are new to me and this simple issue has me clueless.
Before I blindly tear out and replace the whole system (with a
salvaged CR500 motor), I figured I'd see if anyone in here might know
something of use.
Any help with diagnosis (or an outright fix) would be greatly
appreciated.
JayC
I am Tosk
31g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>, j...@sysmatrix.net says...
The pump is probably bleeding back down the line.. Try putting in a one
way valve right in front of the pump.. I forget what they call it, but I
did one for an old pump of mine several years ago... Keeps the pump from
loosing pressure as the water seeps back down to the well...
Wudsracer
********************************************
If the water is seeping back down the well, you have a malfunctioning
foot valve.
Jay,
If everything is right with the pump and pressure tank, the problem
is going to be a small leak somewhere.
Isolate the line leaving the pump with a valve, to test for this.
(and to isolate the problem and tune your air volume/air pressure in
the tank) Then, fine tune the air levels in the pressure tank to
maximize the time (and maximize the volume of fluid pumped) between
the pump's cycling. You will need a faucet or valve to discharge the
water for this test, in addition to the valve which shuts off the line
from the well pump to where-ever it's normally pumped.
Most of the time, any problem with a jet pump is either a leak in
the discharge line, a leak in the lines going down and back up the
well bore, or a problem with the foot valve. (mud or scale)
Jim
Wudsracer/Jim Cook
Smackover Racing
'06 Gas Gas DE300
'82 Husqvarna XC250
Team LAGNAF
Dean H
> If the water is seeping back down the well, you have a malfunctioning
> foot valve.
>
> Jay,
> If everything is right with the pump and pressure tank, the problem
> is going to be a small leak somewhere.
> Isolate the line leaving the pump with a valve, to test for this.
> (and to isolate the problem and tune your air volume/air pressure in
> the tank) Then, fine tune the air levels in the pressure tank to
> maximize the time (and maximize the volume of fluid pumped) between
> the pump's cycling. You will need a faucet or valve to discharge the
> water for this test, in addition to the valve which shuts off the line
> from the well pump to where-ever it's normally pumped.
>
> Most of the time, any problem with a jet pump is either a leak in
> the discharge line, a leak in the lines going down and back up the
> well bore, or a problem with the foot valve. (mud or scale)
>
> Jim
Jim is correct, I'd say, at first thought.
But then, ...
I worked on residential wells for about a year durring my brief stint
as a college drop out.
You say this is a "dug well" so I'm guessing this is a shallow well?
Shallow Well:
From a jet pump's perspective, a shallow well has only one pipe going
down the well. The venturi device (jet) is on the face of the pump in
this case, and the foot valve is down there near the bottom with a
screened check valve keeping the pipe full (primed).
Deep Well:
If it's deeper than X feet (I forget, I want to say 35 feet) then you
will be sporting two pipes (1 1/2 down and 2 inch back up) going down
the well to the venturi device. Then the jet has a tailpiece hanging
with the check valve at the bottom. If you are pulling a deep well,
you might want to plumb with a fishing weight to see how deep you are
dealing with. Two pipes full of water that are 200 feet deep is pretty
damned heavy even for two men when the pipe is all slippery with iron
deposits...
they have power tools for that now...
that'll make you want to go back to college. LOL
But maybe you don't have to pull it...
I'm thinking that a leak between house and well might cause the same
symptoms... probably on the pressure side. Is it easy to get at the
well head? I think we had a little rig with a schrader valve and a
pressure gauge to test for leaks. I think you could noodle out how to
test between house and well. It might be good to rule that out.
Obviously, if it's a deep well and one is leaking, replace them both.
You should also be able to pressure test the foot valve, methix.
HTH,
Dean
I am Tosk
@j4g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>, dfh...@optonline.net says...
>
> > If the water is seeping back down the well, you have a malfunctioning
> > foot valve.
> >
> > Jay,
> > is going to be a small leak somewhere.
> > (and to isolate the problem and tune your air volume/air pressure in
> > maximize the time (and maximize the ï¿œvolume of fluid pumped) between
> > the pump's cycling. ï¿œYou will need a faucet or valve to discharge the
> > water for this test, in addition to the valve which shuts off the line
> >
> > ￜ Most of the time, any problem with a jet pump is either a leak in
Yes, the foot valve.. In our dug well on the shoreline we blew a foot
valve. Didn't want to dig it up right then so I put a one way valve
right in line with the pump in the basement. That solved our problem.
RMR..
Dean H
> right in line with the pump in the basement. That solved our problem.
>
> RMR
Jay will probably want to rejet the jet.
<winky crap>
JayC
That's actually pretty funny. Remind me to kick your ass later...
Please give me some clarification on why the foot valve would cause
these symptoms - not that I don't believe y'all - I'm just trying to
understand the system better, since from what little I understand
about it, it doesn't seem like that would cause this problem.
Besides, replacing a foot valve means going into the well
and...frankly...ick.
Incidentally, I'm pretty sure it's a single-line setup. The well is
about 20-25ft deep or so, and the pump sits a story below the well top
in the basement of the house - it might even be a positive-pressure
system, for all I know - which would sure make pulling the pump
interesting.
As I stated before, the pump is short-cycling, and I can read the
pressure climb/drop on the gauge (between 25 and 40 PSI, which I can
assume is the correct on/off pressures). I would think (intuitively)
that a bad foot valve would lose prime, and allow air to get pulled
into the intake line somehow, although I can't imagine where the air
would come from, being a sealed system and all - seems the line would
stay full all by itself, even without a foot valve. At any rate, I
would guess that a prime loss would make the pump run continuously
without building pressure. Is this ass-backwards? It is acting just
like the pressure tank is waterlogged on a deep-well system - my pump
kicks on, instantly builds full pressure and kicks off. I don't
understand how a jet pump works inside - does the opposite happen?
OTOH, if I have to pull the well innards, maybe change the system over
and throw a submersible in there - then at least I can get 60PSI.
Thanks doods - JayC
Josh Vanderhoof
> 'Jayrassic Park East, Fortress of Solitude' has a dug well w/
> (malfunctioning) jet-pump system. The pump is short-cycling between
> 25 and 40 PSI, according to the pump-mounted gauge. The pressure
> increases rapidly, with pump on-time only a couple of seconds.
> Pressure 'bleeds' back down once the pump kicks off in 5 seconds or
> so. I figured that the pressure tank (external) must be waterlogged,
> but gave it the 'knock test' and it appears to be fine, with the air/
> water line halfway up or so.
It sounds like you don't have any air pressure in your tank. If you
turn off the pump and run the water until it loses all pressure, there
should be something like 35 PSI of air pressure in the tank.
I am Tosk
True. There is a bladder in the tank and there should be a tip on the
top of the tank where you can fill it up. Mine if I remember correctly
stated that the air pressure should be 2 pounds less than the low
pressure setting on the pump switch. However, if there was no pressure
in the bladder, the pump would cycle on and off with no five second
delay because water can't be compressed, and air can. Still sounds like
the pump is leaking back down to the well...
JayC
> In article <m3einwkfwt....@ml1.net>, x...@y.z says...
OK - I'm starting to understand things a little better. The pump does
NOT run continuously, but just when you use some water. The tank is
small, but definitely half full of air and half full of water, so the
bladder is intact and the air pressure is adequate. The pressure does
not drop below 25, so it doesn't sound like the foot valve either.
Sounds like I'm going to have to tear the system apart. Damn - that
means no water for a couple of weeks at least.
JayC
I am Tosk
@j9g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>, j...@sysmatrix.net says...
>
> On Nov 17, 5:12ï¿œpm, I am Tosk <justwaitafrekinmin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > In article <m3einwkfwt....@ml1.net>, x...@y.z says...
> >
> >
> >
> > > JayC <j...@sysmatrix.net> writes:
> >
> > > > 'Jayrassic Park East, Fortress of Solitude' has a dug well w/
> > > > 25 and 40 PSI, according to the pump-mounted gauge. ï¿œThe pressure
> > > > increases rapidly, with pump on-time only a couple of seconds.
> > > > Pressure 'bleeds' back down once the pump kicks off in 5 seconds or
> > > > but gave it the 'knock test' and it appears to be fine, with the air/
> > > > water line halfway up or so.
> >
> > > turn off the pump and run the water until it loses all pressure, there
> > > should be something like 35 PSI of air pressure in the tank.
> >
> > True. There is a bladder in the tank and there should be a tip on the
> > top of the tank where you can fill it up. Mine if I remember correctly
> > stated that the air pressure should be 2 pounds less than the low
> > pressure setting on the pump switch. However, if there was no pressure
> > in the bladder, the pump would cycle on and off with no five second
> > delay because water can't be compressed, and air can. Still sounds like
> > the pump is leaking back down to the well...
>
> OK - I'm starting to understand things a little better. The pump does
> NOT run continuously, but just when you use some water. The tank is
> small, but definitely half full of air and half full of water, so the
> bladder is intact and the air pressure is adequate. The pressure does
> not drop below 25, so it doesn't sound like the foot valve either.
>
> Sounds like I'm going to have to tear the system apart. Damn - that
> means no water for a couple of weeks at least.
>
> JayC
Well, if you turn off the pump does it drop below 25?? If not, you are
probably not leaking back to the well either. I would check the small
tube that goes from the pump head to the pressure switch, or change out
the switch itself. If crud fills the tube, usually in the fitting coming
directly off the pump head or in the small bladder in the switch itself,
it can really confuse the switch and make it run are weird intervals...
Don't tear the pump or pipes yet, especially if the pressure guage is
showing it holding pressure. Also take out the pressure guage if you
need to and check that for gunk (rust or debris) in the intake hole..
JayC
> probably not leaking back to the well either. I would check the small
> tube that goes from the pump head to the pressure switch, or change out
> the switch itself. If crud fills the tube, usually in the fitting coming
> directly off the pump head or in the small bladder in the switch itself,
> it can really confuse the switch and make it run are weird intervals...
> Don't tear the pump or pipes yet, especially if the pressure guage is
> showing it holding pressure. Also take out the pressure guage if you
> need to and check that for gunk (rust or debris) in the intake hole..
Yea - it almost looks like it is just a clog between the pump and
tank, although the tube is pretty big. Maybe there is a small opening
in the pump housing itself that is packed up. "They" say that a
junked up jet can do this sort of thing. I haven't run the water
myself and/or experimented with the system yet, so I'm not totally on
top of all the scenarios. I do have the manual for the pump - there
is probably cleaning instructions in there. I'll tear into it this
weekend, barring any unforeseen problems. 'Course, I DO have two kids
down with the Swine flu...
JayC
I am Tosk
@o9g2000vbj.googlegroups.com>, j...@sysmatrix.net says...
Don't know if you typed it wrong, but I just want to clarify, I am not
talking about the pipe from the pump to the tank, I am talking about a
small plastic tube, maybe 3/8 of an inch outside diameter that should go
from a tit on the pump to the electrical switch that turns the pump on
and off... Just to be sure. Usually that tit is on top of the pump
head...
JayC
wrote:
Pressure switch appears fine - pump does turns on and off as gauge
reads 25 and 40 respectively. However, the elapsed time for the
increase from 25 to 40 (and vice versa) is a few seconds, and thus,
hardly any water gets displaced. Some does though, because after a
series of short-cycles, the pressure will reach and hold > 25PSI, at
which point the pump stops.
Everything appears to be working properly, and the pressure tank has
air in it, so something MUST be clogged.
I'm thinking it must be the pilot jet - damned new gas.
JayC
I am Tosk
d9b348...@p23g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>, j...@sysmatrix.net says...
>
> On Nov 18, 10:42ï¿œam, I am Tosk <justwaitafrekinmin...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > In article <59e30a95-311d-4d2b-932a-2ad4622822a7
> > @o9g2000vbj.googlegroups.com>, j...@sysmatrix.net says...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > > Well, if you turn off the pump does it drop below 25?? If not, you are
> > > > probably not leaking back to the well either. I would check the small
> > > > tube that goes from the pump head to the pressure switch, or change out
> > > > the switch itself. If crud fills the tube, usually in the fitting coming
> > > > directly off the pump head or in the small bladder in the switch itself,
> > > > it can really confuse the switch and make it run are weird intervals...
> > > > Don't tear the pump or pipes yet, especially if the pressure guage is
> > > > showing it holding pressure. Also take out the pressure guage if you
> > > > need to and check that for gunk (rust or debris) in the intake hole..
> >
> > > Yea - it almost looks like it is just a clog between the pump and
> > > in the pump housing itself that is packed up. ￜ"They" say that a
> > > junked up jet can do this sort of thing. ï¿œI haven't run the water
> > > myself and/or experimented with the system yet, so I'm not totally on
> > > is probably cleaning instructions in there. ï¿œI'll tear into it this
> > > weekend, barring any unforeseen problems. ￜ'Course, I DO have two kids
> > > down with the Swine flu...
> >
> > > JayC
> >
> > Don't know if you typed it wrong, but I just want to clarify, I am not
> > talking about the pipe from the pump to the tank, I am talking about a
> > small plastic tube, maybe 3/8 of an inch outside diameter that should go
> > from a tit on the pump to the electrical switch that turns the pump on
> > and off... Just to be sure. Usually that tit is on top of the pump
> > head...
>
> Pressure switch appears fine - pump does turns on and off as gauge
> reads 25 and 40 respectively. However, the elapsed time for the
> increase from 25 to 40 (and vice versa) is a few seconds, and thus,
> hardly any water gets displaced. Some does though, because after a
> series of short-cycles, the pressure will reach and hold > 25PSI, at
> which point the pump stops.
>
> Everything appears to be working properly, and the pressure tank has
> air in it, so something MUST be clogged.
>
> I'm thinking it must be the pilot jet - damned new gas.
>
> JayC
Got a spigot open somewhere? LOL
RMR, just bein' a wise ass...
I am Tosk
d9b348...@p23g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>, j...@sysmatrix.net says...
>
> On Nov 18, 10:42ï¿œam, I am Tosk <justwaitafrekinmin...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > In article <59e30a95-311d-4d2b-932a-2ad4622822a7
> > @o9g2000vbj.googlegroups.com>, j...@sysmatrix.net says...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > > Well, if you turn off the pump does it drop below 25?? If not, you are
> > > > probably not leaking back to the well either. I would check the small
> > > > tube that goes from the pump head to the pressure switch, or change out
> > > > the switch itself. If crud fills the tube, usually in the fitting coming
> > > > directly off the pump head or in the small bladder in the switch itself,
> > > > it can really confuse the switch and make it run are weird intervals...
> > > > Don't tear the pump or pipes yet, especially if the pressure guage is
> > > > showing it holding pressure. Also take out the pressure guage if you
> > > > need to and check that for gunk (rust or debris) in the intake hole..
> >
> > > Yea - it almost looks like it is just a clog between the pump and
> > > in the pump housing itself that is packed up. ￜ"They" say that a
> > > junked up jet can do this sort of thing. ï¿œI haven't run the water
> > > myself and/or experimented with the system yet, so I'm not totally on
> > > is probably cleaning instructions in there. ï¿œI'll tear into it this
> > > weekend, barring any unforeseen problems. ￜ'Course, I DO have two kids
> > > down with the Swine flu...
> >
> > > JayC
> >
> > Don't know if you typed it wrong, but I just want to clarify, I am not
> > talking about the pipe from the pump to the tank, I am talking about a
> > small plastic tube, maybe 3/8 of an inch outside diameter that should go
> > from a tit on the pump to the electrical switch that turns the pump on
> > and off... Just to be sure. Usually that tit is on top of the pump
> > head...
>
> Pressure switch appears fine - pump does turns on and off as gauge
> increase from 25 to 40 (and vice versa) is a few seconds, and thus,
> hardly any water gets displaced. Some does though, because after a
> series of short-cycles, the pressure will reach and hold > 25PSI, at
> which point the pump stops.
>
> Everything appears to be working properly, and the pressure tank has
> air in it, so something MUST be clogged.
>
> I'm thinking it must be the pilot jet - damned new gas.
>
> JayC
BTW, where is this foul pump? I will be in Montpellier VT friday
night... I could bring my tools.. And of course a bike or two;)
Dean H
>
> > True. There is a bladder in the tank and there should be a tip on the
> > top of the tank where you can fill it up. Mine if I remember correctly
> > stated that the air pressure should be 2 pounds less than the low
> > pressure setting on the pump switch. However, if there was no pressure
> > in the bladder, the pump would cycle on and off with no five second
> > delay because water can't be compressed, and air can. Still sounds like
> > the pump is leaking back down to the well...
>
> OK - I'm starting to understand things a little better. The pump does
> NOT run continuously, but just when you use some water. The tank is
> small, but definitely half full of air and half full of water, so the
> bladder is intact and the air pressure is adequate.
I guess it might be safe to assume most tanks have bladders these
days. But, really, the bladder tanks are new in the last <OMFG> 30
years. Generally the bladder tanks are painted blue.
Older non-bladder tanks were galvanized. If there's no bladder, you
are looking for 1/3 air and 2/3 water by volume, visible by a sweat
line or audible when knocking the side. Air is added through a
schrader valve in the plumbing rather than though a tank-top nipple
Half full of air sounds like a lot if it's a bladder tank. It is
possible some old-timer pumped air into the water side of the bladder
tank - treating it like a non-bladder system. I'm not sure if that
would produce your symptoms, but it's easy enough to drain the tank
and refill to eliminate that question mark. Or maybe the bladder broke
and that's how you got to 50%. Half air is too much.
> The pressure does
> not drop below 25, so it doesn't sound like the foot valve either.
Yeah, if you're only cycling with demand, you're looking at the tank
and switch. I have a hard time blaming the switch since its behavior
seems to track correctly with the pressure gauge.
I'd try to reset that tank to baseline specs.
I think you have a tank problem.
>
> Sounds like I'm going to have to tear the system apart. Damn - that
> means no water for a couple of weeks at least.
Don't start tearing into the system without knowing what you're
looking for. Visual inspection doesn't reveal as much as testing.
Worse, once you start tearing into the pump and "cleaning" the system,
you run the chance of sending a chunk down... oh never mind, the jet's
up top on your shallow well.
Do this. Imagine a new pump there. It would still be getting the bad
instructions from the pressure switch, wouldn't it?
It's the switch or the tank.
The tough part is having the right parts handy. Otherwise, there's
nothing that makes any pump job more than one day.
-Dean
JayC
> nothing that makes any pump job more than one day.
Right - even worse when it's a 40 mile drive and you only get a day
during the weekend, if you're lucky. That's why I'm thinking that I'm
almost guaranteed to be waterless for a month or so. Oh well, the
silver lining is that at least I don't have to worry about busting a
pipe if the power/furnace shuts down ;).
Incidentally, I agree completely with your analysis - pump runs and
switch is fine. It's got to be the tank, or possibly a restricted
flow between the pump and tank. The tank looks fine - and it is a
bladder tank - exact same one that's in my primary house,
incidentally. I'm betting on a flow restriction.
Ultimately, I think I'll tear out the whole existing system and
replace it with a deep-well submersible pump - those make way more
sense and run at double the line pressure. 25PSI is seriously lame.
JayC
JayC
> night... I could bring my tools.. And of course a bike or two;)
Thanks for the offer, but I don't think VT helps - puts you at about
the same distance as from Hartford, CT ;). The new pad is ~15 miles
west of Manchester. Don't worry about the tool part - I'm an old hand
at working on this type of crap. Check out this crazy thing (about
40% of my latest personal install - it gets even nastier behind the
camera...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/11551187@N05/3744106645/sizes/l/
Scary, or what? OTOH, feel free to haul a bike and impose otherwise
anytime.
JayC
I am Tosk
@h10g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, j...@sysmatrix.net says...
Wow, that's some heating system... Nice job, looks like my basement, the
foundation anyway...
Rowdy Mouse Racing, did a 3:17 on the track today.