Frame welding?
Goven@address.is.invalid Larry
use on a motorcycle frame. It is not aluminum, it is a 92 suzuki rm125. I
want to begin welding on my own and was just curious as to the type of
equipment I need to buy.
TIA
Jeff Deeney
"Larry" <Larry Go...@address.is.invalid> wrote in message
news:l2ALd.13544$JO2....@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
Oxy-acetylene, MIG, TIG, or stick (arc). It's a mild steel frame,
so no exotic processes required. Use what you have available.
-Jeff Deeney- DoD#0498 NCTR UTMA BRC COHVCO AMA
'99 ATK 260LQ-Stink Wheels '94 XR650L-DreamSickle
We don't stop riding because we get old, we get old because we stop riding.
WoodsChick
Larry wrote:
> Could anyone tell me what would be the proper type of welder
equipment to
> use on a motorcycle frame. It is not aluminum, it is a 92 suzuki
rm125.
You didn't, by any chance, buy that from a guy named Smel, did ya?
>I
> want to begin welding on my own and was just curious as to the type
of
> equipment I need to buy.
If I were new to the welding game, I wouldn't start out on my own
dirtbike frame. A friends, maybe, but not my own, fer cryin' out loud.
Ask me how I know...
> TIA
Tami-
aka Framebreaker
RADRick
"Jeff Deeney" <jeff....@removespam4good.hp.com> wrote in message
> Oxy-acetylene, MIG, TIG, or stick (arc). It's a mild steel frame,
> so no exotic processes required. Use what you have available.
No offense, Jeff, but oxy-acetylene is considered brazing, not welding, and
is definitely not strong enough for fixing a motorcycle frame. It's fine for
fixing tanks and fenders or cutting steel, but not for structural repairs.
The other three methods are far more suitable for welding a frame, IMO.
RADRick
www.mcjournalist.com
Dean H.
>> Oxy-acetylene, MIG, TIG, or stick (arc). It's a mild steel frame,
>> so no exotic processes required. Use what you have available.
>
> No offense, Jeff, but oxy-acetylene is considered brazing, not welding,
> and is definitely not strong enough for fixing a motorcycle frame. It's
> fine for fixing tanks and fenders or cutting steel, but not for structural
> repairs. The other three methods are far more suitable for welding a
> frame, IMO.
No offense, Rick, but I was taught to weld and braze, as well as the
difference between the two, with oxy-acetylene. I'm not saying it's better
than TIG or MIG or arc welding, but it *is* welding if you aren't
introducing new metals to the joint, AFAIK. Start adding new, dissimilar
metals and it becomes brazing.
If I take two chunks of steel and melt them together neatly, that's welding,
not brazing. Torches will do that, quite well.
-dean
just a woodworker, really. And stuff...
Jay C
news:l2ALd.13544$JO2....@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
Bike frames are really thin, so smaller is better, otherwize you will simply
vaporize the area you are trying to weld. Your best bet is to buy a small
wire-feed welder. Lincon makes the "Weld Pak 110" which is the perfect
tool. It costs somewhere around $300 or so, runs on 100V, and uses
flux-core wire (no gas). It can be upgraded with a MIG kit to run gas for
(I think) ~$150. I use mine all the time and use flux-core wire exclusively
(too lazy to set up the gas). Harbor freight sells a small flux-core only
welder for <$100 that should work fine for a bike frame, though I have no
experience with it.
Jay
Eric Murray
RADRick <radrick...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>"Jeff Deeney" <jeff....@removespam4good.hp.com> wrote in message
>> Oxy-acetylene, MIG, TIG, or stick (arc). It's a mild steel frame,
>> so no exotic processes required. Use what you have available.
>
>No offense, Jeff, but oxy-acetylene is considered brazing, not welding, and
>is definitely not strong enough for fixing a motorcycle frame.
You can either weld or braze with OA.
The difference betwen welding and brazing is the filler material, not
the heat source. Brazing is sticking metal together with a dissimilar
filler metal that has a lower melting temperature. For welds, you
use a filler that is the same metal, or sometimes no filler at all.
Lots of motorcycle frames have been made using brazed joints. Most British
bikes through about the mid 60's were brazed. Brazing can be just as
strong as welding but it takes more skill and time for fitting.
For the OP's question, MIG is probably the easiest to learn. But you
should practice a lot before you weld an important part on something
that you're going to ride at high speeds. There's a lot of difference
between being able to stick a couple hunks of metal together and making
a good weld. Buy some books, or better, take a class at the local JC.
And practice.
Eric
IdaSpode
And you wonder why people jump on your posts? Once again you state
something as though it is a fact, when in truth you are mistaken.
You'd do better to preface your statements with a disclaimer such as:
"I thought..." or "in my opinion" that is, unless you enjoy the taste
of foot in mouth.
I've only dabbled in welding here and there, but I damn well know the
difference between welding, brazing, silver soldering and low temp
soldering. Apparently you don't...
>RADRick
IdaJBWelder
Jim Hall
>No offense, Jeff, but oxy-acetylene is considered brazing, not welding,
er.... no.
>is definitely not strong enough for fixing a motorcycle frame. It's fine for
>fixing tanks and fenders or cutting steel, but not for structural repairs.
no again. Sorry.
I believe that many of the older aftermarket frames (Rickman, Cheney,
Champion) actually were brazed. A distant memory, so I wouldn't swear
to it as fact.
Jim Hall
520 EXC
950 LC8 Adventure
turning Money into Noise...
EggNChips
"IdaSpode" <n...@icehouse.net> wrote in message
news:m2cuv0hr24tdr2d5t...@4ax.com...
OA is definitely welding, but definitetly not appropriate for an
inexperienced welder on a safety critical component like a bike frame. I
would also argue that it is an outdated form of welding compared to MIG/TIG.
I get the feeling that people are reading too much into RadRick's posts and
jumping on him just because he expresses an opinion.
Craig Faison
> I get the feeling that people are reading too much into RadRick's posts and
> jumping on him just because he expresses an opinion.
He's not expressing it as his opinion, he's expressing it as fact. He
said:
"No offense, Jeff, but oxy-acetylene is considered brazing, not welding,
and is definitely not strong enough for fixing a motorcycle frame."
That is presented as fact, and it is incorrect. That in itself isn't a big
deal as we've all certainly made mistakes and will continue to do so...
it's the attitude that goes along with it that is causing the fuss. If
this post were an isolated thing, the reaction wouldn't have been so
great, but right in the middle of being called on his attitude he goes and
does it again. Hard to resist pointing that out.
I don't want to continue the Rick bashing. The point has been made, and
he's free to continue posting with whatever attitude he wants. Personally,
I hope he chooses to post as just a regular old guy.
Craig
EggNChips
"Craig Faison" <cfa...@magpage.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.33.050201...@alaska.magpage.com...
If he had said "Oxy Acetylene is not welding it is brazing" I would agree
with you, he is stating that as fact but he doesn't.
If it was virtually anybody else on usenet would you jump on them as
aggresively? No you would correct their misguided opinion with an element
of politeness (at least I would).
IdaSpode
<jdh...@nospammolaplateng.co> wrote:
>"RADRick" <radrick...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>No offense, Jeff, but oxy-acetylene is considered brazing, not welding,
>
>er.... no.
>
>
>>is definitely not strong enough for fixing a motorcycle frame. It's fine for
>>fixing tanks and fenders or cutting steel, but not for structural repairs.
>
>no again. Sorry.
>
>I believe that many of the older aftermarket frames (Rickman, Cheney,
>Champion) actually were brazed. A distant memory, so I wouldn't swear
>to it as fact.
Brazed into cast or machined lug fittings, IIRC.
>Jim Hall
DJ
sturd
>I don't want to continue the Rick bashing. The point has been >made,
and
>he's free to continue posting with whatever attitude he wants.
Besides, it's too easy. Where's the sport in that?
>Personally,
>I hope he chooses to post as just a regular old guy.
Fat chance but ya never know.
Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.
sturd
>Oxy-acetylene, MIG, TIG, or stick (arc). It's a mild steel frame,
>so no exotic processes required. Use what you have available.
I would only add that you should PRACTICE. I once was
fairly good, for a full week, when I was doing a big project. I was
only good near the end of the project though. Found myself going
back to fix earlier work as my skills came up.
Now when I fire up the welder, any of them, I suck because it
typically happens twice a year or so. I can stick metal together
but you wouldn't want to look too close. Wish I had time to PRACTICE.
dsc
With steel, the only difference between welding Oxy or Tig is the sorce
of the heat. Melting steel togehter is welding... anyway you do it.
Simmonsmc
>is definitely not strong enough for fixing a motorcycle frame. It's fine for
>fixing tanks and fenders or cutting steel, but not for structural repairs.
>The other three methods are far more suitable for welding a frame, IMO.
>
>RADRick
>www.mcjournalist.com
No offence but its only brazing if you use brass as your filler material and if
done correctly it would be strong enough we gas weld air frames on small
aircraft all the time its actually prefered over TIG welding as it allows more
flex an less breakage, I personally would heli-arc a bike frame but you could
concievably gas weld it.
Mike Simmons
04' KTM 525 MXC
AMA/ Dist.36
http://www.ktm-parts.com
D-H Cycles KTM/Suzuki/ Modesto
Motowrx, Livermore CA
Motowerx, livermore Ca
Jeff Deeney
"RADRick" <radrick...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:7yCLd.3041$Nn1...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Shaking my head in disbelief...
I won't bother to correct this, since so many others have.
The biggest issue with using a torch on a frame is the excess heat.
You pretty much have to clear away everything in the vicinity. It
works fine on mild steel frames.
Most euro bikes (and my ATK) use Cr-Mo frames. I've done
small amounts of welding on these, but prefer to use electric.
I'm told that proper welding of alloy steels should involve some
type of annealing process.
Personally, I really prefer the torch. I've welded up to 1/4" steel
with mine. There is something zen about the raw nature of burning
gasses and the skill of coaxing along a puddle of molten metal.
Most recently, I've played around with some of the aluminum
brazing rods. Now that I've got the process down, I might
attempt something like a luggage rack, or pannier brackets.
IdaSpode
Somehow humans were able to weld metal before the advent of
electricity and compressed, bottled gases by using forge and a BFH.
DJ
Craig Faison
If virtually anybody else on usenet barged into RMD with the same attitude
as he did, I'd respond the same way. If it were someone who posted without
the attitude he has shown, I'd reply as you suggest.
As I said, if the welding reply was an isolated thing, I don't think
anyone would've replied so harshly. Think of it as the straw that broke
the camel's back.
Craig
RADRick
"EggNChips" <add...@e-mail.com> wrote in message
> OA is definitely welding, but definitetly not appropriate for an
> inexperienced welder on a safety critical component like a bike frame. I
> would also argue that it is an outdated form of welding compared to
> MIG/TIG.
The OP expressed not knowing the difference between them or of having even
basic welding skills. To enter into a long diatribe about each one would
have been pointless. Whether OA was once considered a form of welding is
irrelevant, it is not common today as such and only those with advanced
training can do it properly. On that basis, OA is NOT welding. Excluding it
was proper and accurate. As far as frame repairs go, I don't know of any
welder who would suggest using that method over any of the other three.
Apparently, you and I are the only ones intelligent enough to have
recognized these facts.
> I get the feeling that people are reading too much into RadRick's posts
> and
> jumping on him just because he expresses an opinion.
It's for people like you that I continue to respond. A number of the folks
in here who think they own this newsgroup take great delight in dissecting
everything I write in hopes of impressing others by attacking my posts. What
pathetic little lives they must live. They conveniently glossed over the
fact that I ended my post on this with IMO. Thanks for having the stones to
speak up on my behalf.
RADRick
www.mcjournalist.com
Craig Faison
> Somehow humans were able to weld metal before the advent of
> electricity and compressed, bottled gases by using forge and a BFH.
This sounds like my kind of welding!
I'm gonna try to attach the passenger pegs to the xr600 using this method.
Craig
RADRick
As soon as some of my detractors see my name on a post, their reading
comprehension goes into the toilet. The reality is no welder worth his salt
would even consider using OA to fix a steel frame. Certainly not if they
have any concerns for liability. That very real fact was entirely discounted
in favor of attacking me. What was lost on these people is that my advice
properly directed the OP towards the three other viable alternatives for his
repair.
> If he had said "Oxy Acetylene is not welding it is brazing" I would agree
> with you, he is stating that as fact but he doesn't.
Thanks for getting it.
> If it was virtually anybody else on usenet would you jump on them as
> aggresively? No you would correct their misguided opinion with an element
> of politeness (at least I would).
The very real elements of entitlement and ownership that some of the
regulars in here feel towards this NG are at fault here. I don't discount
that my personality may have something to do with it, but in almost every
instance where someone has challenged or attacked me it has been by one of
the established regulars and almost always followed up by more of the same.
My posts are directed at those who don't speak up and know how to read and
comprehend without their perception being clouded by personal bias.
RADRick
www.mcjournalist.com
IdaSpode
wrote:
MikeW used a BFEM to "unweld" his swingarm pivot, maybe he'll loan it
to you for your welding project...
>Craig
DJ
RADRick
"Jim Hall" <jdh...@nospammolaplateng.co> wrote in message
> er.... no.
Name one major motorcycle company that still uses OA welding for something
as critical as a frame.
> no again. Sorry.
>
> I believe that many of the older aftermarket frames (Rickman, Cheney,
> Champion) actually were brazed. A distant memory, so I wouldn't swear
> to it as fact.
The key word being "older." The companies you mentioned were not mass
producers, but more like boutique builders of specialized racing frames. The
OP was looking for the best way to repair his frame. OA welding is not in a
beginning welder's curriculum. It is highly specialized and advanced and
requires some degree of knowledge in metallurgy. On that basis, the advice I
gave was entirely appropriate. Given that the OP was likely looking for a
solution equal or similar to the process used in his frame's original
manufacture, eliminating OA as a consideration was proper and correct. But
please, continue to denigrate my advice like the other regulars just because
it comes from me. I wouldn't want you to appear to have a mind of your own.
RADRick
www.mcjournalist.com
RADRick
"Simmonsmc" <simm...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
> No offence but its only brazing if you use brass as your filler material
> and if
> done correctly it would be strong enough we gas weld air frames on small
> aircraft all the time its actually prefered over TIG welding as it allows
> more
> flex an less breakage, I personally would heli-arc a bike frame but you
> could
> concievably gas weld it.
This is for you and all the others who have disputed my advice in this
thread. The original poster asked:
>Could anyone tell me what would be the proper type of welder equipment to
>use on a motorcycle frame. It is not aluminum, it is a 92 suzuki rm125.
His request for the "proper" type welding to fix this specific frame would
indicate that he would like to repair it in the same way that it was
originally manufactured.
And then he said:
> I want to begin welding on my own and was just curious as to the type of
>equipment I need to buy.
He states he has no knowledge or equipment. Given the expertise to master OA
brazing/welding and the understanding of metallurgy required, the fact that
he is a beginner, his desire to approximate the original manufacture, and
his need to purhase equipment, discounting OA as a consideration was
entirely correct. Your statement above does not address any of these factors
and your anecdotal evidence is inappropriate as it refers to the use of OA
by skilled welders, not beginners. If people in here would put less effort
in trying to discredit me and a little more effort in reading comprehension
this NG might benefit from not being subjected to all this juvenile
nonsense.
RADRick
www.mcjournalist.com
Craig Faison
> The very real elements of entitlement and ownership that some of the
> regulars in here feel towards this NG are at fault here. I don't discount
> that my personality may have something to do with it, but in almost every
> instance where someone has challenged or attacked me it has been by one of
> the established regulars and almost always followed up by more of the same.
I feel the need to reply to this, even though I'm really trying to let
this die.
I was the first one in this recent flurry to give you crap or whatever
with the "full of yourself" comment. I did that on my own, with no
expectation of any reply from other regulars. That they did reply just
shows that I'm not alone in my thinking. We didn't discuss it beforehand
and aren't giving each other high-fives as we go along. You give yourself
too much credit if you think you're worth an organized effort.
BTW, I'm really glad to read the statement about your personality possibly
having something to do with it. There's hope yet.
Craig
RADRick
> this die.
>
> I was the first one in this recent flurry to give you crap or whatever
> with the "full of yourself" comment. I did that on my own, with no
> expectation of any reply from other regulars. That they did reply just
> shows that I'm not alone in my thinking. We didn't discuss it beforehand
> and aren't giving each other high-fives as we go along. You give yourself
> too much credit if you think you're worth an organized effort.
>
> BTW, I'm really glad to read the statement about your personality possibly
> having something to do with it. There's hope yet.
The reality is that you and several other regulars felt compelled to jump in
my shit in this thread without considering what the OP asked and how
appropriate my response was to his questions. I guarantee that had anyone
else said the exact same thing as I it would not have elicited the amount of
vitriol it did. As evidence of this, I'm not the only one who saw it that
way. I'm constantly being berated for my know-it-all attitude, but no one
says anything about the we-know-more-than-you attitude that permeates almost
every response by a regular to my posts. The hypocrisy would be laughable if
it weren't so myopic.
RADRick
www.mcjournalist.com
sturd
[spew deleted]
Man, I haven't seen a boneheaded/wrong/ignorant reply that good in a
long time.
Thanks, that was fun.
-jc
>
> The reality is that you and several other regulars felt compelled to jump
in
> my shit in this thread without considering what the OP asked and how
> appropriate my response was to his questions.
Actually, the reality is that you stated as fact that oxy-ace is not welding
when in fact it is. That was the point of contention and you have yet to
accept that you were wrong (unless I missed something). It is welding. It
isn't appropriate for the OP to weld his frame this way but it is welding.
You were incorrect in your statement of fact.
> I guarantee that had anyone
> else said the exact same thing as I it would not have elicited the amount
of
> vitriol it did.
When you present yourself as an expert and incorrectly state something as a
fact, you will be called on it no matter who you are.
> As evidence of this, I'm not the only one who saw it that
> way.
The overwhelming response shows what? It shows that you were wrong in your
statement about oxy-ace welding, that is all.
> I'm constantly being berated for my know-it-all attitude, but no one
> says anything about the we-know-more-than-you attitude that permeates
almost
> every response by a regular to my posts.
That's because you were/are wrong, the rest of the posters were/are correct
about oxy-ace welding.
> The hypocrisy would be laughable if
> it weren't so myopic.
Uh, yeah ... okay.
--
-Jeff
-
-KTM200exc
....................... then again, what do I know.
Dean H.
>> OA is definitely welding, but definitetly not appropriate for an
>> inexperienced welder on a safety critical component like a bike frame. I
>> would also argue that it is an outdated form of welding compared to
>> MIG/TIG.
>
> The OP expressed not knowing the difference between them or of having even
> basic welding skills. To enter into a long diatribe about each one would
> have been pointless.
Really? Was the OP not smart enough to read about welding, or were you not
prepared to write it? Instead, you confuse the reader with a misstatement of
truth about another process called brazing.
> Whether OA was once considered a form of welding is irrelevant, it is not
> common today as such and only those with advanced training can do it
> properly. On that basis, OA is NOT welding.
Uh, bullshit. That's like saying letterpress isn't really printing because
it isn't used much any more and requires lost skills. Pure bullshit.
And really, it's not that hard. Even I can do it.
> Excluding it was proper and accurate.
Excluding it was a huge oversimplification and distortion of the truth, not
proper or accurate.
Calling it brazing was downright wrong. Don't confuse the dewd.
Main Entry:2braze
Function:transitive verb
Inflected Form:brazed ; brazŁing
Etymology:French braser, from Old French, to burn, from breze hot coals -
more at BRAISE
Date:1677
: to solder with a nonferrous alloy having a lower melting point than the
metals being joined
-brazŁer noun
> As far as frame repairs go, I don't know of any welder who would suggest
> using that method over any of the other three.
That was your secondary point, and a good one.
> Apparently, you and I are the only ones intelligent enough to have
> recognized these facts.
You are scary smart. We all saw that last part, and nobody had issue with
that part. It was your confusion about OA and brazing that needed
correcting. And sorry, Rick, it's not really all about you. Bad info gets no
mercy here in RMD, and therein lies the beauty of our group. There's a lot
of collective knowlege here. It's impossible to be smarter than *the whole
group*, so humility is really a useful tool for enjoyment here. We're only
saving the OP from bad info.
>
> They conveniently glossed over the fact that I ended my post on this with
> IMO. Thanks for having the stones to speak up on my behalf.
C'mon, you know the language. The IMO, modifies the last sentence, not the
whole paragraph. The first sentence need that a lot more than the last one.
Go nuts, try IMHO.
I'm missing where ever you are allegedly taking a spanking. Hang in there.
-dean
>
> RADRick
> www.mcjournalist.com
>
RADRick
"-jc" <Spam...@DieSpammers.com> wrote in message
> Actually, the reality is that you stated as fact that oxy-ace is not
> welding
> when in fact it is.
I said no such thing. I said it is "considered" brazing, which is what the
majority of welders use it for.
> That was the point of contention and you have yet to
> accept that you were wrong (unless I missed something).
As usual, you did. Too damn busy looking for ways to discredit me and not
reading what I actually wrote or what the OP asked.
> It is welding. It
> isn't appropriate for the OP to weld his frame this way but it is welding.
I guarantee you that if you walk into a welding shop and ask to have a frame
welded, Oxy-Ace is not the first choice that will come to the welder's mind.
Not even second. Now if you ask him to braze something for you...
> You were incorrect in your statement of fact.
The word "fact" never appeared in my original reply nor did I represent it
as such. If you took it that way that is your problem. In fact, I was
careful to end my post with IMO. How convenient of you to ignore that.
> When you present yourself as an expert and incorrectly state something as
> a
> fact, you will be called on it no matter who you are.
Exactly what in my post did I say to present myself as an expert? Is it
simply because of my sig? If so, that means my previous assertion was
correct that a lot of people in here react to me and not to my posts.
> The overwhelming response shows what? It shows that you were wrong in
> your
> statement about oxy-ace welding, that is all.
It was not a statement, it was an opinion, one shared by a number of others.
> That's because you were/are wrong, the rest of the posters were/are
> correct
> about oxy-ace welding.
Ahh, the me versus everyone else attitude. Like I said, it isn't what I
write, it's that *I* write it.
>> The hypocrisy would be laughable if
>> it weren't so myopic.
>
> Uh, yeah ... okay.
What's the matter, didn't have a dictionary handy?
RADRick
www.mcjournalist.com
IdaSpode
<radrick...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>"EggNChips" <add...@e-mail.com> wrote in message
>> OA is definitely welding, but definitetly not appropriate for an
>> inexperienced welder on a safety critical component like a bike frame. I
>> would also argue that it is an outdated form of welding compared to
>> MIG/TIG.
Riding a 1971 Bultaco Alpina is an "outdated" form of riding compared
to a 2005 KTM, but it's still riding isn't it? The whole issue here is
not the appropriateness of which welding method to use on a MC frame,
but the fact that Rick stated as fact that OA is not welding and then
goes off into his rants trying to support his statement instead of
admitting his is simply wrong on this one.
>The OP expressed not knowing the difference between them or of having even
>basic welding skills. To enter into a long diatribe about each one would
>have been pointless.
What was pointless was your response that OA is not "welding". Making
a relevant point would have been to describe exactly why OA may not be
the most appropriate method of welding a MC frame. Do you know why? If
you want to actually add something of worth to the discussion, why not
describe the various methods of welding, where to use them and why.
Instead you cop out by saying "a long diatribe would be pointless".
From the sounds of it, you don't even know the difference between a
"diatribe" and a "discussion". To use the term "diatribe" is somewhat
inflammatory and invites confrontation.
>Whether OA was once considered a form of welding is
>irrelevant, it is not common today as such and only those with advanced
>training can do it properly. On that basis, OA is NOT welding. Excluding it
>was proper and accurate. As far as frame repairs go, I don't know of any
>welder who would suggest using that method over any of the other three.
>Apparently, you and I are the only ones intelligent enough to have
>recognized these facts.
Have you actually done any welding? The more you talk, making a lame
attempt to appear knowledgeable, the more ignorant you look . You
screwed up, OA is welding, accept that fact instead of digging deeper
into the hole you created.
>> I get the feeling that people are reading too much into RadRick's posts
>> and
>> jumping on him just because he expresses an opinion.
He professes to be a "journalist", a welder of words if you will. I
suggest there are ways of expressing one's opinion without sounding
like you are stating something as fact. If he just would have admitted
the mistake, this all would have ended there. He attempts to defend
his actions by continuing to make inane, factually incorrect
statements like:
"Whether OA was once considered a form of welding is
irrelevant, it is not common today as such and only those with
advanced training can do it properly. On that basis, OA is NOT
welding."
This is about like that guy a while back that stated something to the
effect that if you had to put a foot down while "riding" a trail, that
it wasn't really "riding". I guess during all those miles I pile up
each year I haven't actually been riding and all those times I've used
an O/A torch to melt and join metals I haven't been welding.
Joining similar metals through the application of heat (be it from
combustible gasses, a fire in a forge or via electric arc) is indeed
welding, period, end of discussion.
From dictionary.com:
weld1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wld)
v. weld·ed, weld·ing, welds
v. tr.
To join (metals) by applying heat, sometimes with pressure and
sometimes with an intermediate or filler metal having a high melting
point.
>It's for people like you that I continue to respond. A number of the folks
>in here who think they own this newsgroup take great delight in dissecting
>everything I write in hopes of impressing others by attacking my posts. What
>pathetic little lives they must live. They conveniently glossed over the
>fact that I ended my post on this with IMO.
To the contrary, the regulars here feel no need to impress anyone,
it's the newbies like you who go out of there way to make a impression
in an attempt to establish some measure of credibility. BTW, you don't
seem to be doing too well on the credibility issue so far...
>Thanks for having the stones to
>speak up on my behalf.
When you say something worth standing up for, I'll be there.
>RADRick
David '04 KTM 200EXC
djones<at>LSidaho.com
http://www.motosports-boise.com/rmd
M Rothwell
>
> I get the feeling that people are reading too much into RadRick's posts and
> jumping on him just because he expresses an opinion.
>
>
Nah, we jump on him because he is an "industry insider".
Try to keep up.
RADRick
"Dean H." <mo...@groove.calm> wrote in message
> Really? Was the OP not smart enough to read about welding, or were you not
> prepared to write it? Instead, you confuse the reader with a misstatement
> of truth about another process called brazing.
I doubt he was looking for a dissertation on the benefits, techniques, and
drawbacks on each type of welding. As for confusing him, my statement
eliminated the least likely candidate and allowed him to focus on the viable
other three.
> Uh, bullshit. That's like saying letterpress isn't really printing because
> it isn't used much any more and requires lost skills. Pure bullshit.
I dare say that any welder who would first consider OA to fix a motorcycle
frame is either highly developed in his skills and confidence in them or a
fool. Old techniques are supplanted by new and better techniques. I suppose
you think OA is better for cutting plate steel than a plasma torch? Pure
bullshit is discounting new technology in favor of old and insisting it's
better.
> And really, it's not that hard. Even I can do it.
I'm happy for you. Were you to operate a welding business, would you assume
the liability of fixing a customer's frame using OA over a more modern
technology? I don't think so.
> Excluding it was a huge oversimplification and distortion of the truth,
> not proper or accurate.
That's your opinion.
> Calling it brazing was downright wrong. Don't confuse the dewd.
Hardly. By referring to OA as brazing (which is what the majority of welders
use it for) I freed the OP up to concentrate on the other more viable forms
of welding for his needs.
> Main Entry:2braze
> Function:transitive verb
> Inflected Form:brazed ; brazŁing
> Etymology:French braser, from Old French, to burn, from breze hot coals -
> more at BRAISE
> Date:1677
>
> : to solder with a nonferrous alloy having a lower melting point than the
> metals being joined
>
> -brazŁer noun
You have a thing with dictionary descriptions, don't you? I prefer
real-world definitions. In my world OA is used primarily for brazing and
cutting, not welding. I suspect that's the same in your world, but you can't
seem to admit it.
>> As far as frame repairs go, I don't know of any welder who would suggest
>> using that method over any of the other three.
>
> That was your secondary point, and a good one.
So why are we arguing about this? Did it hurt for you to admit that?
> You are scary smart. We all saw that last part, and nobody had issue with
> that part. It was your confusion about OA and brazing that needed
> correcting.
Again, OA IS considered more for brazing than welding. The only confusion is
from you and others who are ignoring that reality. This is a beginner welder
looking for rudimentary info on a newsgroup, not an exhaustive treatise on
the subject. I steered him towards the direction of suitable options by
quickly (and accurately) discounting the one unsuitable one.
>And sorry, Rick, it's not really all about you. Bad info gets no mercy here
>in RMD, and therein lies the beauty of our group. There's a lot of
>collective knowlege here. It's impossible to be smarter than *the whole
>group*, so humility is really a useful tool for enjoyment here. We're only
>saving the OP from bad info.
And they say *I'm* overwhelmed with self-importance.
> C'mon, you know the language. The IMO, modifies the last sentence, not the
> whole paragraph. The first sentence need that a lot more than the last
> one.
>
> Go nuts, try IMHO.
It's all opinion. I don't see where MXTuner or anyone else has to qualify
everything they post as such. Why am I any different?
> I'm missing where ever you are allegedly taking a spanking. Hang in there.
Thanks, I will. I genuinely like helping people, even if it makes me
unpopular with some. I haven't been working regularly for the past 2 years
because of injuries I sustained in a motorcycle accident (I've had 3
surgeries in just the past year alone with more to come) so I enjoy offering
up my expertise here and in other forums when I can. If I make friends along
the way, great, if not, que sera sera. Thanks for not resorting to
name-calling.
RADRick
www.mcjournalist.com
Craig Faison
> Why am I any different?
This question has been answered numerous times.
Craig
RADRick
"M Rothwell" <ThisIsAB...@toobad.com> wrote in message
> Nah, we jump on him because he is an "industry insider".
>
> Try to keep up.
Finally, someone brave enough to admit the obvious.
RADRick
www.mcjournalist.com
john
john
psst raddick can i have a press pass to get close to the track
btw whom ever started this post i prefer an idiot gun style
welder that has the center wire feed & gas shielding, all you do is ground
your part set the heat & feed rate and pull the trigger. Also
it's nice to have a fire watcher near by with a cold beer & fire
extinguisher.
i use one of those auto darkening helmets because it's nice to be able to
see what your trying to weld. if your not too familiar with welding then
the stick welder has the advantage of you can easily vary the "wire" feed
speed.
the welder i use has a foot peddle to turn up the juice. the trouble i have
is when i get nervous about what i'm welding i lean forward which puts
the pedal to the medal (trashing any hope of a good weld)
"Craig Faison" <cfa...@magpage.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.33.050201...@alaska.magpage.com...
Jeff Deeney
Rick, you have so many misperceptions that I'm not even sure where
to begin.
> OP was looking for the best way to repair his frame.
As I recall, he was looking for a variety of acceptable methods
for frame repair, and was wondering if he needed new equipment.
I listed a wide variety of methods that would all result in acceptable
repairs for do it your selfers.
> OA welding is not in a
> beginning welder's curriculum. It is highly specialized and advanced and
> requires some degree of knowledge in metallurgy.
Not true. I used to teach beginning welding. I almost became a
vocational welder before I went into mechanical engineering. I'm a
licensed engineer. No, an engineering degree is not required to learn
welding. Highly specialized just isn't true. It's one of the oldest
and most common methods of welding. Some people catch on
sooner than others. Some never catch on. MIG has the advantage
that almost any knuckle dragger can make metal stick together, but
I've seen some very lousy MIG welds.
> On that basis, the advice I
> gave was entirely appropriate. Given that the OP was likely looking for a
> solution equal or similar to the process used in his frame's original
> manufacture, eliminating OA as a consideration was proper and correct.
No, he wasn't looking for a factory method to weld his frame. You made
this assumption for him. He was looking for something he could do himself.
Here's what Larry posted:
"Could anyone tell me what would be the proper type of welder equipment to
use on a motorcycle frame. It is not aluminum, it is a 92 suzuki rm125. I
want to begin welding on my own and was just curious as to the type of
equipment I need to buy."
The main reason manufacturers and commercial welders used wire-feed
is simple economics. It's much faster than using a torch, and requires
less skill. A secondary concern is that a torch puts a lot more heat into
the metal, resulting in increased distortion & concern over heating
nearby components.
Even on thicker metal, I prefer using the torch if I have the time.
OTOH, hitting a 3/8" steel plate with a 200A stick electrode is
satisfying in its own way. :-) Given that I have needs for welding,
brazing,
and occassional cutting, yet limited space & $$, I have a torch, and a
AC stick welder. The next toy will be a DC TIG setup with a plasma
cutting attachment.
M Rothwell
>
> You have a thing with dictionary descriptions, don't you? I prefer
> real-world definitions. In my world OA is used primarily for brazing and
> cutting, not welding. I suspect that's the same in your world, but you can't
> seem to admit it.
>
This just cracks me up - You cant admit you were wrong, so you resort to
saying that YOUR definition is more valid than the dictionaries
definition. This whole "perception is reality" thing is just a joke.
john
>
> "Dean H." <mo...@groove.calm> wrote in message
>> Really? Was the OP not smart enough to read about welding, or were you
>> not prepared to write it? Instead, you confuse the reader with a
>> misstatement of truth about another process called brazing.
>
> I doubt he was looking for a dissertation on the benefits, techniques, and
> drawbacks on each type of welding. As for confusing him, my statement
> eliminated the least likely candidate and allowed him to focus on the
> viable other three.
>
>> Uh, bullshit. That's like saying letterpress isn't really printing
>> because it isn't used much any more and requires lost skills. Pure
>> bullshit.
>
> I dare say that any welder who would first consider OA to fix a motorcycle
> frame is either highly developed in his skills and confidence in them or a
> fool. Old techniques are supplanted by new and better techniques. I
> suppose you think OA is better for cutting plate steel than a plasma
> torch? Pure bullshit is discounting new technology in favor of old and
> insisting it's better.
any bonehead knows you use oxy-gasoline to cut not plasma
even the russian have been cutting this way for decades cheep
reliable & can cut really thick stuff, now if you want to cut fast
medium thick stuff plasma is fine or laser for finer work, water jet
if you don't want to "heat treat" the part as your cutting. if all
you want to do is put a broken frame together take a towmotor battery
and a set of jumper cables and weld away <kids don't try this at home>
BTW i think an oring chain makes the best welding rod in this case.
but since those are to expensive i use wire coat hangers from the
drycleaner up the street. i have an unlimited supply all i do is drive
by in a pickup and show him the rmd salute and he throws in the bed
as i drive off.
http://www.millerwelds.com/about/75years/photos/
these guys probably have a different opinion cause they
like to hold sticks while they weld (i like to have a free hand)
RADRick
"IdaSpode" <n...@icehouse.net> wrote in message
> The whole issue here is
> not the appropriateness of which welding method to use on a MC frame,
> but the fact that Rick stated as fact that OA is not welding and then
> goes off into his rants trying to support his statement instead of
> admitting his is simply wrong on this one.
What purpose would be served in providing a lengthy explanation of OA beyond
discounting it as a viable alternative? To enlighten the OP? Chances are
that when he investigates further he will come to learn that OA is limited
and that it is not considered for structural types of welding any more. That
is true and factual.
> What was pointless was your response that OA is not "welding". Making
> a relevant point would have been to describe exactly why OA may not be
> the most appropriate method of welding a MC frame. Do you know why? If
> you want to actually add something of worth to the discussion, why not
> describe the various methods of welding, where to use them and why.
Why do you ask of me that which you didn't bother to take the time to do
yourself? I doubt the OP was looking to learn to weld from this NG. I
believe he was looking for nothing more than advice on where to direct his
efforts. I steered him away from the non-viable option and towards what
would work for him so that he not waste time investigating aimlessly. What
advice did you give him other than to call my advice into question?
> Instead you cop out by saying "a long diatribe would be pointless".
> From the sounds of it, you don't even know the difference between a
> "diatribe" and a "discussion". To use the term "diatribe" is somewhat
> inflammatory and invites confrontation.
Since you and others have made a sport of dissecting my posts, everything I
write descends into diatribe, not discussion. It's your behavior towards me
that's inflammatory, not my posts.
> Have you actually done any welding? The more you talk, making a lame
> attempt to appear knowledgeable, the more ignorant you look . You
> screwed up, OA is welding, accept that fact instead of digging deeper
> into the hole you created.
I have a MIG welder, OA rig, and a plasma cutter. Oh, and a soldering iron.
Every bike frame I've ever built/modified was welded because I prefer to
powder coat the frames rather than have them Bondo-ed and spray painted. OA
is almost exclusively discarded as a welding technique in this regard and
since the OP was asking about a motorcycle frame, my experience is valid. I
don't know a single bike-builder who would weld a frame using an OA rig. TIG
welding is actually the medium of choice.
> He professes to be a "journalist", a welder of words if you will. I
> suggest there are ways of expressing one's opinion without sounding
> like you are stating something as fact.
So you admit, my chosen profession does have bearing on how my posts are
viewed despite protestations to the contrary. Thanks for clearing that up.
> If he just would have admitted
> the mistake, this all would have ended there. He attempts to defend
> his actions by continuing to make inane, factually incorrect
> statements like:
>
> "Whether OA was once considered a form of welding is
> irrelevant, it is not common today as such and only those with
> advanced training can do it properly. On that basis, OA is NOT
> welding."
And what exactly is "factually incorrect" or "inane" with that? I work in
the industry and have for the past 16 years. Prior to that I worked in
aerospace and computers. With the advent of MIG, TIG and plasma cutting, OA
is almost a forgotten technology thesedays. About the only things it is used
for any more is cutting bolts, heating sheet metal for forming and in
muffler shops. It's unwieldy in that it requires a knowledge of metallurgy
and technique in getting the proper flame, feed speed and control of the
weld/braze medium, and temperature control. There is also more distortion
involved from the application of heat and the risk of embrittlement to the
metal.
> This is about like that guy a while back that stated something to the
> effect that if you had to put a foot down while "riding" a trail, that
> it wasn't really "riding". I guess during all those miles I pile up
> each year I haven't actually been riding and all those times I've used
> an O/A torch to melt and join metals I haven't been welding.
That's your interpretation, not mine.
> Joining similar metals through the application of heat (be it from
> combustible gasses, a fire in a forge or via electric arc) is indeed
> welding, period, end of discussion.
Again, you are discounting what the OP wants to accomplish and the
suitability to the task of his options. I addressed that and not the broader
task of teaching him the how, why and what of welding in all its forms. I
hardly think this NG is appropriate for such a task.
> To the contrary, the regulars here feel no need to impress anyone,
> it's the newbies like you who go out of there way to make a impression
> in an attempt to establish some measure of credibility. BTW, you don't
> seem to be doing too well on the credibility issue so far...
My credentials are firmly in place. I don't need validation from this NG for
that.
> When you say something worth standing up for, I'll be there.
We shall see.
RADRick
www.mcjournalist.com
M Rothwell
Glad to see that sarcasm is not lost with you.
I'll repeat what I said in an earlier post: "It's not your job, it's
your attitude"
Mike Baxter
Dean, you hit the nail on the head with this response. Good Job!
Mike Baxter
Rod Richeson
ahead. You obviously no nothing about the welding process, and should
refrain from giving advise. I am not a professional welder, but dabble
in all forms of melting metal to make interesting objects. OA is a
fantastic process for joining mild steel. You said use a MIG, which in
an inexperienced welder's hands, might as well use JB Weld to fix it. I
have seen many a project that was not welded correctly with MIG because
you can "squirt" something that looks like a good weld, but it will not
penetrate enough. For someone who has not welded before this would not
be a good project to start on.
I could weld this to the tensile strength of the base metal using any of
the processes available to me, MIG, TIG, or OA, that is the real
question here.
Rod
dlevy
"Dean H." <mo...@groove.calm> wrote in message
news:xLWdnV7OyaU...@comcast.com...
><snip>
> Bad info gets no mercy here in RMD, and therein lies the beauty of our
> group. There's a lot of collective knowlege here. It's impossible to be
> smarter than *the whole group*, so humility is really a useful tool for
> enjoyment here. <snip> -dean
>
RADRick
"Jeff Deeney" <jeff....@removespam4good.hp.com> wrote in message
> Rick, you have so many misperceptions that I'm not even sure where
> to begin.
I disagree.
>> OP was looking for the best way to repair his frame.
>
> As I recall, he was looking for a variety of acceptable methods
> for frame repair, and was wondering if he needed new equipment.
> I listed a wide variety of methods that would all result in acceptable
> repairs for do it your selfers.
You did. I simply pointed out that OA was not a good choice for a beginner
and that one of the other three would more approximate how his frame wa
originally manufactured.
> Not true. I used to teach beginning welding. I almost became a
> vocational welder before I went into mechanical engineering. I'm a
> licensed engineer. No, an engineering degree is not required to learn
> welding. Highly specialized just isn't true. It's one of the oldest
> and most common methods of welding. Some people catch on
> sooner than others. Some never catch on. MIG has the advantage
> that almost any knuckle dragger can make metal stick together, but
> I've seen some very lousy MIG welds.
The other disadvantage to OA that I didn't even mention is that acetylene is
highly combustible. None of the other choices requires acceptance of the
risks that a bottle of acetylene requires. Most homeowner's insurance will
not cover damages from having acetylene on the premises, and many local
ordinances prohibit acetylene in residential neighborhoods. I know, I've
been fined for it. The shielding gases used in MIG and TIG do not pose these
risks and are more suitable for a home welder.
> No, he wasn't looking for a factory method to weld his frame. You made
> this assumption for him. He was looking for something he could do
> himself.
> Here's what Larry posted:
>
> "Could anyone tell me what would be the proper type of welder equipment to
> use on a motorcycle frame. It is not aluminum, it is a 92 suzuki rm125. I
> want to begin welding on my own and was just curious as to the type of
> equipment I need to buy."
I made my comment with the most reasonable choice in mind. For the average
home welder a 110V MIG welder is all they'll ever need. It is easy to learn,
requires no special wiring, will weld up to 1/4" thick steel with no
problem, has zero combustible gas risks, and can be bought new for under
$1000. OA has no practicality when viewed in this light.
> The main reason manufacturers and commercial welders used wire-feed
> is simple economics. It's much faster than using a torch, and requires
> less skill. A secondary concern is that a torch puts a lot more heat
> into
> the metal, resulting in increased distortion & concern over heating
> nearby components.
Add in the safety risks and it makes sense to steer a beginner away from OA.
So why am I having to defend this?
> Even on thicker metal, I prefer using the torch if I have the time.
> OTOH, hitting a 3/8" steel plate with a 200A stick electrode is
> satisfying in its own way. :-) Given that I have needs for welding,
> brazing,
> and occassional cutting, yet limited space & $$, I have a torch, and a
> AC stick welder. The next toy will be a DC TIG setup with a plasma
> cutting attachment.
I grudgingly fire up my OA rig, but there are some tasks where nothing else
will do. But I can't, in good conscience, recommend OA to anyone given that
there are easier, safer and better alternatives to having what amounts to a
more complicated, technical, potential bomb in their home garage. It's
amazing that all the proponents of OA that have attacked my post have not
even mentioned this negative aspect of OA. I guess they go blind and dumb
when they see my name on a post.
RADRick
www.mcjournalist.com
-jc
> "-jc" wrote
> > Actually, the reality is that you stated as fact that oxy-ace is not
> > welding
> > when in fact it is.
>
> I said no such thing. I said it is "considered" brazing, which is what the
> majority of welders use it for.
You said, "No offense, Jeff, but oxy-acetylene is considered brazing, not
welding". Then you said, "Whether OA was once considered a form of welding
is irrelevant, it is not common today as such and only those with advanced
training can do it properly. On that basis, OA is NOT welding."
Synopsis ... you said OA is not welding.
> > That was the point of contention and you have yet to
> > accept that you were wrong (unless I missed something).
>
> As usual, you did. Too damn busy looking for ways to discredit me and not
> reading what I actually wrote or what the OP asked.
I looked at what you wrote and you said, OA is not welding, twice. I'm not
discussing what the OP asked, why are you. It is of no relevance to this
conversation.
If I look further down the thread is see this ... you said, "In my world OA
is used primarily for brazing and
cutting, not welding.". Finally, you get it right.
I did not miss anything ... however, you seem to miss the point, a lot. I'm
not out to discredit you nor is anyone else ... correcting misinformation is
the goal.
> > It is welding. It
> > isn't appropriate for the OP to weld his frame this way but it is
welding.
>
> I guarantee you that if you walk into a welding shop and ask to have a
frame
> welded, Oxy-Ace is not the first choice that will come to the welder's
mind.
> Not even second. Now if you ask him to braze something for you...
Correct but not the point.
> > You were incorrect in your statement of fact.
>
> The word "fact" never appeared in my original reply nor did I represent it
> as such. If you took it that way that is your problem. In fact, I was
> careful to end my post with IMO. How convenient of you to ignore that.
The context of the message was as such. You are a journalist, you know this
already. I didn't ignore anything.
> > When you present yourself as an expert and incorrectly state something
as
> > a
> > fact, you will be called on it no matter who you are.
>
> Exactly what in my post did I say to present myself as an expert? Is it
> simply because of my sig? If so, that means my previous assertion was
> correct that a lot of people in here react to me and not to my posts.
You have repeatedly given your resume to this group and represented yourself
as an authority on everything you write. What most people react to is
misinformation and blind arrogance.
> > The overwhelming response shows what? It shows that you were wrong in
> > your
> > statement about oxy-ace welding, that is all.
>
> It was not a statement, it was an opinion, one shared by a number of
others.
This is a statement ... "No offense, Jeff, but oxy-acetylene is considered
brazing, not welding, and
is definitely not strong enough for fixing a motorcycle frame."
> > That's because you were/are wrong, the rest of the posters were/are
> > correct
> > about oxy-ace welding.
>
> Ahh, the me versus everyone else attitude. Like I said, it isn't what I
> write, it's that *I* write it.
You were wrong, correct? Others were right, correct? In this case, you are
correct, it's you versus all (most) of RMD. It's not that *you* write it,
it's HOW you write it.
> >> The hypocrisy would be laughable if
> >> it weren't so myopic.
> >
> > Uh, yeah ... okay.
>
> What's the matter, didn't have a dictionary handy?
Insulting my intelligence now, how cute.
Dean H.
news:R7RLd.4009$cl1....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>> Really? Was the OP not smart enough to read about welding, or were you
>> not prepared to write it? Instead, you confuse the reader with a
>> misstatement of truth about another process called brazing.
>
> I doubt he was looking for a dissertation on the benefits, techniques, and
> drawbacks on each type of welding. As for confusing him, my statement
> eliminated the least likely candidate and allowed him to focus on the
> viable other three.
Uh, yeah, but it was dead wrong info that lead him to focus on the other
three.
>
>> Uh, bullshit. That's like saying letterpress isn't really printing
>> because it isn't used much any more and requires lost skills. Pure
>> bullshit.
>
> I dare say that any welder who would first consider OA to fix a motorcycle
> frame is either highly developed in his skills and confidence in them or a
> fool.
This isn't the point which we are quibbling about, Rick.
> Old techniques are supplanted by new and better techniques. I suppose you
> think OA is better for cutting plate steel than a plasma torch?
No. This isn't the point we're quibbling about, Rick.
> Pure bullshit is discounting new technology in favor of old and insisting
> it's better.
This isn't the point we're quibbling about, Rick.
>
>> And really, it's not that hard. Even I can do it.
>
> I'm happy for you. Were you to operate a welding business, would you
> assume the liability of fixing a customer's frame using OA over a more
> modern technology? I don't think so.
Neither do I.
This isn't the point we're quibbling about, Rick
>
>> Excluding it was a huge oversimplification and distortion of the truth,
>> not proper or accurate.
>
> That's your opinion.
>
>> Calling it brazing was downright wrong. Don't confuse the dewd.
>
> Hardly. By referring to OA as brazing (which is what the majority of
> welders use it for) I freed the OP up to concentrate on the other more
> viable forms of welding for his needs.
Right, you got the Op down the right road with bad info.
You're kind of like a famous politician I know who says the world is better
off even though we got here with bad info.
>
>> Main Entry:2braze
>> Function:transitive verb
>> Inflected Form:brazed ; brazŁing
>> Etymology:French braser, from Old French, to burn, from breze hot coals -
>> more at BRAISE
>> Date:1677
>>
>> : to solder with a nonferrous alloy having a lower melting point than the
>> metals being joined
>>
>> -brazŁer noun
>
> You have a thing with dictionary descriptions, don't you? I prefer
> real-world definitions.
That is a very accurate real-world definition of brazing, if you were
trained to braze and weld with OA. You weren't so you didn't know that. Try
to pay attention, or continue to attempt to correct me on something which I
just happen to know better than you do.
> In my world OA is used primarily for brazing and cutting, not welding.
> I suspect that's the same in your world, but you can't seem to admit it.
I'm sure that's how it is in most cases. That's not the issue, Rick.
The question is not whether I'll admit that OA is used *more* for brazing
than for welding. I'll stipulate to that for the sake of discussion. It's
probably very true.
Actually, what's the ticket for underwater welding?
Anyway, It's not whether I can admit I'm wrong Rick. It's up to you to be
humble for once.
>
>>> As far as frame repairs go, I don't know of any welder who would suggest
>>> using that method over any of the other three.
>>
>> That was your secondary point, and a good one.
>
> So why are we arguing about this? Did it hurt for you to admit that?
Becuase you first point was not a good one, it was false info. Just trying
to keep you focussed.
Actually, I like it much better when you are correct.
It hurts when I see you walk into a bees nest like you have here. And then
you just stay there and punch the bees nest.
>
>> You are scary smart. We all saw that last part, and nobody had issue with
>> that part. It was your confusion about OA and brazing that needed
>> correcting.
>
> Again, OA IS considered more for brazing than welding.
That's a *very different* statement than "No offense, Jeff, but
oxy-acetylene is considered brazing, not welding,..."
> The only confusion is from you and others who are ignoring that reality.
No, you're missing how misleading your original statement was.
This is a beginner welder
> looking for rudimentary info on a newsgroup, not an exhaustive treatise on
> the subject. I steered him towards the direction of suitable options by
> quickly (and accurately) discounting the one unsuitable one.
Wrong. Improper discount. Please go to the service desk.
>
>>And sorry, Rick, it's not really all about you. Bad info gets no mercy
>>here in RMD, and therein lies the beauty of our group. There's a lot of
>>collective knowlege here. It's impossible to be smarter than *the whole
>>group*, so humility is really a useful tool for enjoyment here. We're only
>>saving the OP from bad info.
>
> And they say *I'm* overwhelmed with self-importance.
Where's the self importance there, Rick? I'm telling you that you and I are
mere zits on the ass of the collective knowlege here. Try to learn something
here instead of sharing your vaunted expertise.
I'm telling you that when you are wrong, you will be told you were wrong.
You were wrong.
I'm telling you that your clear lack of any shred of humility is, well, it's
pretty disgusting, dewd.
>
>> C'mon, you know the language. The IMO, modifies the last sentence, not
>> the whole paragraph. The first sentence need that a lot more than the
>> last one.
>>
>> Go nuts, try IMHO.
>
> It's all opinion. I don't see where MXTuner or anyone else has to qualify
> everything they post as such. Why am I any different?
Uh, Tuna's usually right?
>
>> I'm missing where ever you are allegedly taking a spanking. Hang in
>> there.
>
> Thanks, I will. I genuinely like helping people, even if it makes me
> unpopular with some. I haven't been working regularly for the past 2 years
> because of injuries I sustained in a motorcycle accident (I've had 3
> surgeries in just the past year alone with more to come) so I enjoy
> offering up my expertise here and in other forums when I can.
Well, there you go with that chest-thumping expertise stuff, following
endless defenses of your heinous, loathsome, vile and incongruous gaff vis a
vis brazing and OA. You offer humor as much as expertise, but you don't even
know it.
> If I make friends along the way, great, if not, que sera sera. Thanks for
> not resorting to name-calling.
I was gonna call you a nasty rectal name, too. But then I thought better of
it. Glad I took the high road *sigh*.
-doris day
the future's not ours to see
CR500
midwestm...@yahoo.com
>
> The very real elements of entitlement and ownership that some of the
> regulars in here feel towards this NG are at fault here.
Not that I give a shit about your and others ongoing fight about
whatever it is you're doing, but I just thought this was an interesting
statement, considering to whom it was you responded in igniting this
particular exchange of repartee.
http://www.landfield.com/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/to.file/rec.motorcycles-reorg
James
00CR250
Dean H.
>
> Dean, you hit the nail on the head with this response. Good Job!
>
> Mike Baxter
>
Thanks. I was worried it might be too brazen.
Mike Baxter
If you wanted to tell the guy that Oxy Ace welding was not the way to
go for repairing his frame, then why the hell didn't you state that to
begin with? Just take the hit and admit you were wrong. I would have
just refered the guy to Mike Simmons, who is a welder by trade and can
repair a motorcycle frame that appeared to be un-repairable. Why,
because I don't weld. I have people like Mike and my friend Skip weld
my stuff. They know their trade. Mike Simmons says OA is welding,
and that's good enough for me.
Remember, you have people from all walks of life that read and post to
RMD. If you put out bad info, you will be corrected. Next thing you
know, you will be telling Mike Williams that "jitter" is not a problem
when using O-scopes.
Open your mind and close your mouth. You might just learn something
here.
Mike Baxter
M Rothwell
> "Jeff Deeney" <jeff....@removespam4good.hp.com> wrote in message
>
>>Rick, you have so many misperceptions that I'm not even sure where
>>to begin.
>
>
> I disagree.
>
Yup - there's the biggest one.
Rex McKinney
Rex McKinney
-jc
> Ya know what is neat? Seeing an argument in rmd and I'm not involved.
Join us ... RADRick bashing is all the rage right now. ;-)
Jeff Deeney
"Dean H." <mo...@groove.calm> wrote in message
> >>
> >
> > Dean, you hit the nail on the head with this response. Good Job!
> >
> > Mike Baxter
> >
>
> Thanks. I was worried it might be too brazen.
Not at all. I found your response really took a bead on the
major arguements. Very penetrating, with good coverage.
I expect that your joining of the components of this discussion
will be hermetic.
sturd
>http://www.landfield.com/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/to.file/rec.m...
How cool is that? Deeney and I both voted for rec.moto.dirt in
freaking
1995.
Internet nostalgia!
Go fast. Take chances.
MIke S.
dlevy
"Jeff Deeney" <jeff....@removespam4good.hp.com> wrote in message
news:0ATLd.7046$6x4....@news.cpqcorp.net...
Jeff Deeney
> You did. I simply pointed out that OA was not a good choice for a beginner
> and that one of the other three would more approximate how his frame wa
> originally manufactured.
You're hedging. You stated that OA wasn't a choice at all. I agree
that it may not be the best choice, but it is an option. I've done a number
of frame repairs in the past using my torch. Always on mild steel frames.
One was on Victor's footpeg mount for his XR. To my knowledge, this
was a high stress item, and it held up just fine. I've also welded his
subframe.
To weld the steering damper tower on his frame, I used the electric. What
with the oil inside the frame and the steering head bearings nearby, I
didn't
want to put in any more heat than needed.
> The other disadvantage to OA that I didn't even mention is that acetylene
is
> highly combustible. None of the other choices requires acceptance of the
> risks that a bottle of acetylene requires. Most homeowner's insurance will
> not cover damages from having acetylene on the premises, and many local
> ordinances prohibit acetylene in residential neighborhoods. I know, I've
> been fined for it. The shielding gases used in MIG and TIG do not pose
these
> risks and are more suitable for a home welder.
Safety is a tertiary concern. My bedroom is poised over lots of flamable
gases.
The O2 tank is almost more of a concern. At 2000psi, it will fly through a
brick wall if the valve is broken off the top. I keep my tanks well
secured.
I'm glad to live in a neighborhood without annoying covenants. (Although my
neighbors did have a word with me for arc welding at midnight during the
summer I was building my trailer)
> Add in the safety risks and it makes sense to steer a beginner away from
OA.
> So why am I having to defend this?
Again, I'm in agreement with you here. OA is not optimal, but you can't
tell the guy it isn't an option. The big item that set people off was your
insistence that OA can't be used for welding. I see you backpedaling on
this, but still not admitting your original statement was incorrect.
> I grudgingly fire up my OA rig, but there are some tasks where nothing
else
> will do. But I can't, in good conscience, recommend OA to anyone given
that
> there are easier, safer and better alternatives to having what amounts to
a
> more complicated, technical, potential bomb in their home garage.
If I were to have only one method to weld, and cost was no object, I'd
get a high-amp TIG. Still, I'm not sure it would generate enough heat
for some of the forging & iron bending I do occasionally. I love the roar
of the big heating tip on the OA rig. Come to think of it, I've got a 1"
breaker bar that I bent years ago and I've been meaning to straighten out.
Rick, how's your aluminum welding? I suck. I spent a couple hours
on a friends TIG recently trying to weld a skid plate. I need a lot more
practice. I'm going to stick to the aluminum brazes for now. I may
use the braze for some structural items, with careful design of the joint.
Oh, one final advantage to using a torch. Welding near sharp corners.
Arcs are drawn to sharp points because of the voltage concentration.
The flame will always go exactly where you point it.
I finally picked up an auto-darkening welding helmet. It's a Harbor-
Frieght cheapie, but I can't wait to try it out. It will be a real plus
when
I'm laying under the car trying to stike an arc for that muffler hanger.
Simmonsmc
90% of the other stuff on here whats happend to RMD??
Mike Simmons
04' KTM 525 MXC
AMA/ Dist.36
http://www.ktm-parts.com
D-H Cycles KTM/Suzuki/ Modesto
Motowrx, Livermore CA
Motowerx, livermore Ca
RADRick
> that it may not be the best choice, but it is an option.
OK, now who's hedging?
> I've done a number
> of frame repairs in the past using my torch. Always on mild steel frames.
> One was on Victor's footpeg mount for his XR. To my knowledge, this
> was a high stress item, and it held up just fine. I've also welded his
> subframe.
I guarantee that if a stranger, not a friend, asked you to do the repair you
would be hesitant to use OA and accept the liability for the guy's life,
especially if you had one of the other alternatives at your disposal.
> Safety is a tertiary concern. My bedroom is poised over lots of flamable
> gases.
> The O2 tank is almost more of a concern. At 2000psi, it will fly through
> a
> brick wall if the valve is broken off the top. I keep my tanks well
> secured.
Still not as bad as flying through the air and erupting in a small mushroom
cloud that levels the neighborhood. About 20 years ago we used to fill a
small balloon with acetylene, place it on a paper cup, light the cup on fire
and run. When the balloon exploded it would make a nice boom, way louder
than an M80. We tried it in the cul de sac of a friend's neighborhood on
July 4th once and ended up paying to replace 3 windows shattered by the
concussion. Acetylene packs quite a punch under pressure.
> Again, I'm in agreement with you here. OA is not optimal, but you can't
> tell the guy it isn't an option.
For a beginner, it isn't. I stand by that.
> The big item that set people off was your
> insistence that OA can't be used for welding. I see you backpedaling on
> this, but still not admitting your original statement was incorrect.
Taken in context and with my own personal experience, it wasn't. Your
opinion is different, but that doesn't make it any more valid than mine.
Just because it can be done doesn't mean it is the best way nor that it
should be recommended to a beginner.
> If I were to have only one method to weld, and cost was no object, I'd
> get a high-amp TIG. Still, I'm not sure it would generate enough heat
> for some of the forging & iron bending I do occasionally. I love the
> roar
> of the big heating tip on the OA rig. Come to think of it, I've got a 1"
> breaker bar that I bent years ago and I've been meaning to straighten out.
A large majority of DIY welders want nothing more than to fix the occasional
broken steel item, not build custom motorcycles or hot rods. A good
wire-feed MIG is all they'll ever need. If they find they need other
capabilities I suspect they will either research further or take a welding
class. My recommendation to Larry to avoid OA was sound, responsible and the
easiest solution for his stated problem.
> Rick, how's your aluminum welding? I suck. I spent a couple hours
> on a friends TIG recently trying to weld a skid plate. I need a lot more
> practice. I'm going to stick to the aluminum brazes for now. I may
> use the braze for some structural items, with careful design of the joint.
I suck at TIG welding. I'm so used to having a free hand that I keep
dropping the rod.
> I finally picked up an auto-darkening welding helmet. It's a Harbor-
> Frieght cheapie, but I can't wait to try it out. It will be a real plus
> when
> I'm laying under the car trying to stike an arc for that muffler hanger.
Got myself one of those last year after resisting for so long. It has its
advantages, but going from light to dark so quickly can be hard for your
eyes to adjust to at first. I find it easier if I leave my reading glasses
on underneath.
RADRick
www.mcjournalist.com
RADRick
"Simmonsmc" <simm...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
> whats happend to RMD??
Maybe the lurkers and newbies don't want to be vilified in public just for
enjoyment of/by the regulars?
RADRick
www.mcjournalist.com
IdaSpode
>I've got a big bead in my pants.
Lucky guy you are, all I have is gas...
>
>"Jeff Deeney" <jeff....@removespam4good.hp.com> wrote in message
>news:0ATLd.7046$6x4....@news.cpqcorp.net...
>> "Dean H." <mo...@groove.calm> wrote in message
>> news:jfmdnTKWEO0...@comcast.com...
>>> > Dean, you hit the nail on the head with this response. Good Job!
>>> > Mike Baxter
>>> Thanks. I was worried it might be too brazen.
>>
>> Not at all. I found your response really took a bead on the
>> major arguements.
>> -Jeff Deeney
David '04 KTM 200EXC
djones<at>LSidaho.com
http://www.motosports-boise.com/rmd
WoodsChick
Larry wrote:
> Could anyone tell me what would be the proper type of welder
equipment to
> use on a motorcycle frame. It is not aluminum, it is a 92 suzuki
rm125. I
> want to begin welding on my own and was just curious as to the type
of
> equipment I need to buy.
Damn, Larry. You're a troublemaker <G>
Welcome to RMD.
> TIA
Tami-
Jeff V
Jeff V.
bruno
"RADRick" <radrick...@earthlink.net> writes:
> No offense, Jeff, but oxy-acetylene is considered brazing, not welding, and
> is definitely not strong enough for fixing a motorcycle frame. It's fine for
> fixing tanks and fenders or cutting steel, but not for structural repairs.
In the late 70's I had a 250 Harley dirt bike.
(Made in Italy during HD darker times...)
The thing was basically junk and I ended up snapping the frame.
I took it to a local welder and he brazed it back together. Never had
any problem with the fix. I don't know much about welding/brazing
(whatever he used for brazing had a golden color) but from that one
data point, brazing works just fine on frames...
bruno.
Jeff Deeney
"bruno" <inv...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:36aue9F...@individual.net...
Good lord, I can't wait for the (reducing) flames on this one. Thx
Bruno. BTW, howz life in Intel? Drop me a line with your new work
phone & email.
Jeff Deeney
>
> "Jeff Deeney" <jeff....@removespam4good.hp.com> wrote in message
> > You're hedging. You stated that OA wasn't a choice at all. I agree
> > that it may not be the best choice, but it is an option.
>
> OK, now who's hedging?
Rick, reread my orginal post. I said all of the items I suggested were
options. I didn't list my favorite, or even the pros and cons of each.
You stated that OA wasn't used for welding. That was not true.
> I guarantee that if a stranger, not a friend, asked you to do the repair
you
> would be hesitant to use OA and accept the liability for the guy's life,
> especially if you had one of the other alternatives at your disposal.
I guarantee that if it's a mild steel jap frame, I'd stake my best weld on
OA. Of course, the guy might have to pull the engine from the frame
for me to make a good weld. I don't trust myself with MIG or TIG.
A stick is not suitable for such thin material, at least with low-H rods.
> Still not as bad as flying through the air and erupting in a small
mushroom
> cloud that levels the neighborhood. About 20 years ago we used to fill a
> small balloon with acetylene, place it on a paper cup, light the cup on
fire
> and run. When the balloon exploded it would make a nice boom, way louder
> than an M80. We tried it in the cul de sac of a friend's neighborhood on
> July 4th once and ended up paying to replace 3 windows shattered by the
> concussion. Acetylene packs quite a punch under pressure.
I think we grew up in the same neighborhood. Try mixing pure O2 with
the acetylene. My ears rang for a day afterwards.
Rick, I've got a great deal for you. Our Moab group in April is hooking
up with a group of road-racing hoodlums that have leanings toward
pyrotechnics. I think it would be cool if you come out and ride
with myself, Tami, and others. Tami is going to give 5MOH a shot
again. Put on some low gearing & join her. We can practice nightly light
shows with
explosives of choice. I've been meaning to try out amonium-iodide. I have
all the ingredients, but the desert seems like a much better place to play
around with them.
Personally, I would enjoy having another opinionated asshole around
the camp fire. By "opinionated asshole", I am referring to a term of
endearment. (Are you familiar with the RMD "salute"?)
> > Again, I'm in agreement with you here. OA is not optimal, but you can't
> > tell the guy it isn't an option.
>
> For a beginner, it isn't. I stand by that.
> Taken in context and with my own personal experience, it wasn't. Your
> opinion is different, but that doesn't make it any more valid than mine.
> Just because it can be done doesn't mean it is the best way nor that it
> should be recommended to a beginner.
I can respect that opinion.
> I suck at TIG welding. I'm so used to having a free hand that I keep
> dropping the rod.
I'm too used to stick welding. I keep stuffing the tungsten rod into the
metal & contaminating it.
> Got myself one of those last year after resisting for so long. It has its
> advantages, but going from light to dark so quickly can be hard for your
> eyes to adjust to at first. I find it easier if I leave my reading glasses
> on underneath.
Reading glasses!?!?!? Good God Man, you must be ancient! :-)
(I think we're the same age).
flymx
> Rick, how's your aluminum welding? I suck. I spent a couple hours
> on a friends TIG recently trying to weld a skid plate. I need a lot more
> practice. I'm going to stick to the aluminum brazes for now. I may
> use the braze for some structural items, with careful design of the joint.
The three things to keep in mind when alum TIG welding is "CLEAN" "CLEAN"
and of course ... "CLEAN"...
Always scrub the area that is being welded with a " used for alum only" wire
brush [ or equivelant ] .. never use a brush that has been used for
scrubbing anything else.. it will contaminate the welding area for sure ..
as it will imbed other harder particals in the softer alum... once the heat
hits it.. its a mess, some times you have to just keep welding past a shitty
spot ,then later go back and drill out the impurity and then weld over it ..
When you scrub the skin off the alum preparing it for welding, always go to
a width bigger than the weld will be , otherwise the weld could get
contaminated when it flows towards the outer dirty area .
Make your amp settings only slightly higher than what you need for better
range control on the pedal as well as less of a chance to slip on the pedal
and blow a hole in the alum you are working on ..
If you are going to practice , start with a "clean" sheet of alum, aprx 1/8
thick, make small runs , also leave your post flow on for a few seconds so
when you end your section of weld you can keep it clean with the bottle gas
until it cools off enough to not pull in impurities out of the air.. it also
makes it easier [ keeps it cleaner ] to restart and continue the weld.
Oh and on thick alum , or large blocks, always pre heat, it takes a crap
load less amps to weld and way less likely to overheat the weld area ..
This is just how I do it ,... others may differ..
The only thing I would go near a bike frame [ and feel safe about it .. but
I am paranoid .. really ] would be TIG.. you have plenty of heat control and
of course inturn penetration .. mmmmmm penetration..
Dave.
EggNChips
"sturd" <mikestur...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1107283176....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> RADdick spews:
>
> [spew deleted]
>
> Man, I haven't seen a boneheaded/wrong/ignorant reply that good in a
> long time.
> Thanks, that was fun.
>
>
> Go fast. Take chances.
> Mike S.
>
I think this post demonstrates the sentiment in this group, nothing to do
with trying to help fellow Dirtbikers when they ask for help, but about
berated someone because you misinterpret his language.
I have no preconceptions (prejudice) about anybody, I merely try to
understand where they are coming from and his advice was right. Yes a good
OA welder would have no problem with a steel frame, but to suggest to a
beginner that OA is a real option is ludicrous.
The purpose if this group is to discuss dirtbikes!!!
Dean H.
>> RADdick spews:
>>
>> [spew deleted]
>>
>> Man, I haven't seen a boneheaded/wrong/ignorant reply that good in a
>> long time.
>> Thanks, that was fun.
>>
>>
>> Go fast. Take chances.
>> Mike S.
>>
> I think this post demonstrates the sentiment in this group, nothing to do
> with trying to help fellow Dirtbikers when they ask for help, but about
> berated someone because you misinterpret his language.
See, that's the key issue here. We didn't misinterpret his language any more
than he misused the language. He, through his chosen words, conveyed a
message different than he wanted to. Is that the error of the audience or
the author?
A harmless little backpedal like "yeah, I should have wrote ..." would have
got Rick out of this neatly in one short post. Instead he fanned the flames
by schooling us all on his exclusive new definition of welding. You gotta
learn to be artfully wrong once in a while around here. Own the error. I
have a whole collection , but I call them learning experiences.
His other advice was fine.
>
> The purpose if this group is to discuss dirtbikes!!!
Hey, a frame welding thread is pretty damn on-topic for this time of year.
Friggin' ground hog saw his shadow.
HTH,
dean
what shall I screw up today???
john
> Hey, a frame welding thread is pretty damn on-topic for this time of year.
> Friggin' ground hog saw his shadow.
>
> HTH,
> dean
> what shall I screw up today???
ground hog, brush hog, harley hog, hog knobbing, hog heaven
hog heaven is an xr50 in the snow, i think i'll go home & chase the
in-laws dog (usually turns out he chases me) lunch break antics
john
Hey, I DO have a washboard stomach, it just has a load of laundry on
top!
dlevy
Crybaby. Buy a spine.... or weld yours up.... with a torch.
"RADRick" <radrick...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:EvVLd.4218$cl1....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Wudsracer
Rick,
Please don't take the following as criticism. Think of it as a
suggestion to make things work as you would like for them to. (in
here, to have your posts accepted without all the BS you are
receiving.)
Unless you absolutely know all the angles about a particular
subject, simply preface your advice with a statement such as:
"IMHO" (in my humble opinion)
"I believe that"
"Most people in the industry use"
"I always "
or make your statement in this manner:
"Of the different methods of welding, Tig or Mig welding are
generally considered the best way to work a motorcycle frame."
Making a statement as an "absolute", for whatever reason, better be
absolutely correct, or it will be challenged.
Personally, I really try to give good advise, but sometimes what I
say needs correcting. It's just a fact of life. I really don't know
it all. I don't know anyone who does.
From all the history that I have read, only one perfect being was
purported to have ever been created. And, that was a long time ago.
Incorrect information, should not be given on purpose, even to
direct someone from taking the wrong path. That is the jest of what
started this whole particular pissing match of a thread.
Your experiences and knowledge are very welcome here. Just please
listen to what some of your "detractors" are writing. Most of it
started as constructive criticism, no matter what the tone.
The people giving you shit are good folks, who love our sport.
("Our passion" for some of us.) They are also intelligent folks and
are usually very quick to point out "what they perceive" to be
inaccuracies.
Loosen up, Dude. It's all good.
On topic for a bit:
I've been riding every weekend since the ride on New Year's Day. I
will be riding every weekend for the next two months, rain or shine.
My "racing" (loosely applied term, here, to my enduro fun) will either
start on Feb 16th (Austin, TX), or March 6th (Gulfport, MS). You are
welcome to come join me anytime. I'll show you how much fun it is to
wheelie between the trees.
http://www.smackovermotorsports.com/assets/images/jimcook_97ec.jpg
In fact, come on down to the Wudi7 ride, and join us. You can meet
some of us, ride some vastly different terrain than that you normally
ride, and can even write an article about it to make it "work
related".
http://webpages.charter.net/jejb/Wudi7/wudi7.html
Jim Cook
'04 Gas Gas EC300 Woods Pilot
Team LAGNAF
SMACKOVER RACING
BJEC/SERA/TSCEC/AHSCS
www.smackovermotorsports.com
RADRick
"Dean H." <mo...@groove.calm> wrote in message
Yeah, I might have to put him on payroll. :^)
RADRick
www.mcjournalist.com
RADRick
"EggNChips" <add...@e-mail.com> wrote in message
> I think this post demonstrates the sentiment in this group, nothing to do
> with trying to help fellow Dirtbikers when they ask for help, but about
> berated someone because you misinterpret his language.
>
> I have no preconceptions (prejudice) about anybody, I merely try to
> understand where they are coming from and his advice was right. Yes a
> good
> OA welder would have no problem with a steel frame, but to suggest to a
> beginner that OA is a real option is ludicrous.
>
> The purpose if this group is to discuss dirtbikes!!!
Thanks, Egg. You're a class act.
RADRick
www.mcjournalist.com
RADRick
"Wudsracer" <dirtbike...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
Snipped a lot of good stuff 8<
I will take it under advisement.
On another note, what is your connection to Smackover? I'm interested in the
radiator supports. Do you have them to fit an '04 WR450?
RADRick
www.mcjournalist.com
Jim Hall
>Name one major motorcycle company that still uses OA welding for something
>as critical as a frame.
>
That wasn't the question, and you know it.
>> no again. Sorry.
>>
>> I believe that many of the older aftermarket frames (Rickman, Cheney,
>> Champion) actually were brazed. A distant memory, so I wouldn't swear
>> to it as fact.
>
>The key word being "older." The companies you mentioned were not mass
>producers, but more like boutique builders of specialized racing frames. The
>OP was looking for the best way to repair his frame. OA welding is not in a
>beginning welder's curriculum. It is highly specialized and advanced and
>requires some degree of knowledge in metallurgy
Jesus Fucking Christ
Some of the best welders I knew growing up signed their name with an
"X". OA welding was in Freshman Metal Shop when I was in high school.
It was taught before arc welding. "Heli-Arc" welding was advanced. MIG
was non-existant except in the aerospace industry.
A am not an expert, but I would rather have a frame brazed (truly
braze - brass rod) over stick welding - assuming I didn't have a MIG
or TIG choice. It induces a lot less stress into the process.
>On that basis, the advice I gave was entirely appropriate. Given that the OP was likely looking for a
>solution equal or similar to the process used in his frame's original
>manufacture,
Not what he asked at all.
> I wouldn't want you to appear to have a mind of your own.
.. snicker ..
Jim Hall
520 EXC
950 LC8 Adventure
turning Money into Noise...
-jc
>
> On another note, what is your connection to Smackover? I'm interested in
the
> radiator supports. Do you have them to fit an '04 WR450?
Jim *is* Smackover.
RADRick
"-jc" <Spam...@DieSpammers.com> wrote in message
> Jim *is* Smackover.
Kewl! RMD discount, maybe? :^)
RADRick
www.mcjournalist.com
Goven@address.is.invalid Larry
motor into an 80 frame. I do have some experience with brazing, from when I
was a kid. I bought a small torch that used the pellets, not pretty but it
did work and never broke (surprising). Anyway, I want something I can learn
myself that will yield a strong joint. I do appreciate all of the replies. I
was thinking some of the newer frames were made of something other than
steel. I just want to make sure I can use this at home in a 2 car garage.
Thx, Larry
"Larry" <Larry Go...@address.is.invalid> wrote in message
news:l2ALd.13544$JO2....@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> Could anyone tell me what would be the proper type of welder equipment to
> use on a motorcycle frame. It is not aluminum, it is a 92 suzuki rm125. I
> want to begin welding on my own and was just curious as to the type of
> equipment I need to buy.
>
> TIA
>
-jc
> "-jc" wrote
>
> > Jim *is* Smackover.
>
> Kewl! RMD discount, maybe? :^)
Free advice and a gentlemanly disposition is all I can guarantee.
Jeff Deeney
"-jc" <Spam...@DieSpammers.com> wrote in message
> "RADRick" <radrick...@earthlink.net> wrote
> > "-jc" wrote
> >
> > > Jim *is* Smackover.
> >
> > Kewl! RMD discount, maybe? :^)
>
> Free advice and a gentlemanly disposition is all I can guarantee.
And free Gas-Gas test rides.
Well, the first ride anyway.
WoodsChick
Jeff Deeney wrote:
>
> Rick, I've got a great deal for you. Our Moab group in April is
hooking
> up with a group of road-racing hoodlums that have leanings toward
> pyrotechnics.
Huh? Road-racing hoodlums? Really? That's cool. I can just hear the
Glory Days stories already.
Pyrotechnics? Those punks better not be setting that stuff off when I'm
tryin' to sleep. Damn it.
> I think it would be cool if you come out and ride
> with myself, Tami, and others. Tami is going to give 5MOH a shot
> again.
Excuse me? "...give 5MOH a shot again?" Portal to portal, baby. Come
hell or high water. I'll make it through Hell if I have to drag the
shattered remains of my broken bike behind me on foot. Or vice versa.
> Put on some low gearing & join her.
Yes. Do.
> We can practice nightly light
> shows with
> explosives of choice. I've been meaning to try out amonium-iodide.
I have
> all the ingredients, but the desert seems like a much better place to
play
> around with them.
<sigh> Great...
>
> Personally, I would enjoy having another opinionated asshole around
> the camp fire.
Eric's gonna kick your ass when he finds out what you called him.
> By "opinionated asshole", I am referring to a term of
> endearment. (Are you familiar with the RMD "salute"?)
He tells that to everyone he calls an asshole, Rick. Don't believe it.
> > Got myself one of those last year after resisting for so long. It
has its
> > advantages, but going from light to dark so quickly can be hard for
your
> > eyes to adjust to at first. I find it easier if I leave my reading
glasses
> > on underneath.
Every time we go to the tool store, and I mean *every* time, I put on
those goggles and masks and walk around the store laughing my butt off.
I just love putting them on, for some reason. It cracks me up to no
end. Kind of like when I tried on a pair of size 15 basketball shoes
the other day. Eric just sort of shakes his head and tries not to let
me see him rolling his eyes.
> Reading glasses!?!?!? Good God Man, you must be ancient! :-)
> (I think we're the same age).
Eric has some of those, but he "doesn't need them." Me? I've taken to
carrying my old pair in my backpack so's I can see the damn trail map.
I'm ancient, and I don't have a problem with it.
> -Jeff Deeney- DoD#0498 NCTR UTMA BRC COHVCO AMA
See ya soon!
Tami-
WoodsChick
-jc wrote:
> "RADRick" <radrick...@earthlink.net> wrote
> > "-jc" wrote
> >
> > > Jim *is* Smackover.
> >
> > Kewl! RMD discount, maybe? :^)
>
> Free advice and a gentlemanly disposition is all I can guarantee.
And an absurdly high phone bill if you don't use the toll-free number.
> -Jeff
Tami-
WoodsChick
Jeff Deeney wrote:
> "-jc" <Spam...@DieSpammers.com> wrote in message
> news:ctreqp$ppl$1...@heap.juniper.net...
> > "RADRick" <radrick...@earthlink.net> wrote
> > > "-jc" wrote
> > >
> > > > Jim *is* Smackover.
> > >
> > > Kewl! RMD discount, maybe? :^)
> >
> > Free advice and a gentlemanly disposition is all I can guarantee.
>
> And free Gas-Gas test rides.
>
> Well, the first ride anyway.
Yeah, right..."free"...pfft.
Those "free" test rides are expensive, make no mistake. I personally
know of 4 people (am I forgetting anyone?) that have taken "free" test
rides and it has cost them thousands upon thousands of dollars shortly
thereafter.
I should count myself twice.
> -Jeff Deeney- DoD#0498 NCTR UTMA BRC COHVCO AMA
Tami-
WoodsChick
Jeff Deeney wrote:
> "-jc" <Spam...@DieSpammers.com> wrote in message
> news:ctreqp$ppl$1...@heap.juniper.net...
> > "RADRick" <radrick...@earthlink.net> wrote
> > > "-jc" wrote
> > >
> > > > Jim *is* Smackover.
> > >
> > > Kewl! RMD discount, maybe? :^)
> >
> > Free advice and a gentlemanly disposition is all I can guarantee.
>
> And free Gas-Gas test rides.
>
> Well, the first ride anyway.
Yeah, right..."free"...pfft.
Those "free" test rides are expensive, make no mistake. I personally
know of 4 people (am I forgetting anyone?) that have taken "free" test
rides and it has cost them thousands upon thousands of dollars shortly
thereafter.
I should count myself twice.
> -Jeff Deeney- DoD#0498 NCTR UTMA BRC COHVCO AMA
Tami-
john
raises hand slowly
john
then the ongoing trickly of gee that would be nifty to have too's
Tim Harrell
news:1107393884.4...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Yeah, that would be foolish.
Set aside plenty of time when you call. Jim is VERY sociable.
Tim H
Tim Harrell
Ooh, ME! ME!
Tami's talking about ME!
That Cook guy is a smooth talking SOB, for sure. It seems like a simple,
friendly offer: "Want to take my bike for a spin?" It's sitting there,
looking all clean and shiny, so you say,"Sure, why not?"
2 weeks later you're turning out the couch cushions to scrounge up enough
cash to get one of your own.
Bastard.
Have I mentioned lately that my new ECO300 is really, really bitchin'?
Tim H
Happy addict
Dean H.
>>
>> And free Gas-Gas test rides.
>>
>> Well, the first ride anyway.
>
>
> Yeah, right..."free"...pfft.
>
> Those "free" test rides are expensive, make no mistake. I personally
> know of 4 people (am I forgetting anyone?)...
<raising hand, smiling>
six speed 300, no waiting.
WoodsChick
Ok...make that *8* suckers.
Tami-
old and senile
joe_r...@my-deja.com
I have the XL600R that has passenger pegs on the swing arm, "no sh*t!.
They are attached through a hole all the way through each side. Next
you'll be asking to add passenger pegs to your Calamari prepped YSR,
this is not my opinion, this is fact.
Joe
CrashTestDummy
>
>Yeah, right..."free"...pfft.
>
>Those "free" test rides are expensive, make no mistake. I personally
>know of 4 people (am I forgetting anyone?) that have taken "free" test
>rides and it has cost them thousands upon thousands of dollars shortly
>thereafter.
>
>Tami-
I got away with an almost free ride. I haven't purchased a GG (but
only because I'm too poor), however I have managed to purchase about
$500 worth of other stuff from Jim so far.
I've always wanted a 300 EXC, but if I had the money I'm pretty
sure Jim could sway me over to the EC 300 pretty easily.
CrashTestDummy (aka-Fred)
f.j.bradf...@verizon.net
joe_r...@my-deja.com
when using single shot analog oscilloscopes, we (Tektronix), well not
me (Tek layed me off in 1999) used to have transient digitizers spec'd
at 1Ghz, the effective conversion was 8 bits. But that performance
could be parlayed via characterizing the whole measurement system and
some of the customers got effectively 40Ghz out of them. The transient
digitizer was dependent on the then robust vacuum tube (Cathode ray
tube) technology, where Tek integrated a variety of imagers into the
basic electrostatic deflected gun.
Tek as of today, with the aid of IBM in their Silicon and Germanium
foundry, can only get 15Ghz out of present digital oscilloscopes.
Digital oscilloscopes have their place, but they definately are not
edge of the art, that art was tossed out when Tektronix stopped selling
to what was called "The Lunatic Fringe."
Still disappointed after all these years,
Joe
XL600R
Wudsracer
Everyone gets a Discount at Smackover Motor Sports.
"We ain't mad at nobody."
Craig Faison
> Hey Craig,
>
> I have the XL600R that has passenger pegs on the swing arm, "no sh*t!.
> They are attached through a hole all the way through each side.
I've had a couple of those over the years... pretty funky feeling for the
passenger according to my wife. I really like those old XLs. I've got a
junk XL600 motor in my garage, need any odball little parts?
Here's one of the XLs (nowhere near as nice as yours) from a few years
back:
http://userweb.magpage.com/cfaison/xl.jpg
I think that YSR pipe in the background is hanging in Pete Plassman's
garage now. I can't remember what bike is under the blanket next to the
XL.
> Next you'll be asking to add passenger pegs to your Calamari prepped
> YSR, this is not my opinion, this is fact.
Other than being late, you're right. I've already put more thought than
anyone should into putting passenger pegs on a YSR. I've always talked
myself out of it though. I've also given thought to putting that XL600
motor in a YSR...
Thought I was done with the YSR thing, but my brother bought a couple of
bikes last year and needed an endurance race partner. Big fun and we even
won a race. Hopefully we'll do more endurance racing this year. Maybe more
motarding on the XR100 too, got any 17" wheels & slicks that I can have?
Craig
sturd
>Maybe more
>motarding on the XR100 too, got any 17" wheels & slicks that I can
have?
Man you've got that XL600. Put street tires on it and come up to
Beaverun.
Bozo, Will, and I ran the motard races there last year in the
"sportsman"
class - stock brakes, suspension, and wheels - and had a ball. Bozo has
a DR650, Will a DR350, and I ran my XR600. I think they're racing
there
again this year. There's also a place even closer to you, somewhere
near
Philly.
Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.
Craig Faison
> Man you've got that XL600. Put street tires on it and come up to
> Beaverun.
I don't have that XL any longer but I do have an old XR600.
> Bozo, Will, and I ran the motard races there last year in the
> "sportsman" class - stock brakes, suspension, and wheels - and had a
> ball. Bozo has a DR650, Will a DR350, and I ran my XR600. I think
> they're racing there again this year. There's also a place even
> closer to you, somewhere near Philly.
I'm tempted, for sure. I like the mini stuff due to the low cost/low risk
thing, but I'm pretty sure that one of these days I'll try a "full sized"
motard. Kinda worried about getting addicted.
That said, it doesn't get much lower cost than throwing on a set of tires.
What did you use on your XR600? I used a Metzeler me33 or something like
that (it was free) on the front of the XR100 last year and it was quite
possibly the scariest front tire I've ever ridden. Seems like I used them
on my RZs way back when and they weren't so bad, but back then I was only
good at turning the throttle and wasn't carrying any corner speed.
Craig
sturd
>That said, it doesn't get much lower cost than throwing on a set of
tires.
>What did you use on your XR600?
Rear was a Dunlop Ksomethingsomething 'R' which they still make for
vintage roadracing. Front was an Avon somethingsomething made for
their big dualsport bike. It worked really well, it looks sort of like
a
rain slick from the '80's.
It is definately more fun than you should be allowed to have with your
pants on.