Makeing the connection from GPS to maps...
Dudley Cornman
So how/where do get maps (paper or otherwise) that have a few GPS reference
points on them?
How/where do you download maps into a GPS unit (assuming it has that
capability)?
dsc
Eric
I use Delorme maps. The regional topo maps are okay for dinking around on
fire roads and such not for serious orienteering, but the Delorme USFS topo
quadrants are very nice. I like using the software maps as I can pick my
scale and area and print it. It also lets me pick lat/long or UTM. I like
this as I print all my maps with 1K grids and UTM, then they are just like
the maps I used in the Army and what I'm comfortable land nav'ng with. Be
aware that GPS coordinates don't always come out right on a map. The GPS
may be accurate to 100 meters (depending on the last digit availability up
to 1 meter), but unless the map you are using is very recent and intended
for use with a GPS, it won't neccesarily plot out correctly. This is due
to the fact that different maps are created from different datum
(baselines) and also due to the relationship of grid, magnetic and true
north. Compasses in our hemisphere actually point towards Hudson Bay
(magnetic north), not the North Pole, and this magnetic field constantly
moves. This results in a declination of as much as 13 degrees west or east
depedning on what part of the country you are in. Most maps are set up to
account for this, the best maps show true north and the deviation for
magnetic north and grid north, this allows you to account for the
differences and orient your map correctly while plotting azimuths. In
other words, your GPS location is the intersection of 3 to 12 lines of
bearing originating from roughly horizontal line from an elevation above
the equator (due to the GPS satellites orbits). If you were to plot this
on a standard USFS topo map, depending on what part of the country you are
in you could be from 100 meters to a kilometer off. The GPS systems will
convert the output to lat/long or UTM and if you are using a decent map
(really good 1:50,000 topo maps cost thousands of dollars for even part of
a state) that is GPS compatible it will be dead on. The Delorme USFS topo
Quads are about the cheapest quality maps you can get-a hundred bucks for
one state.
Personally, I do a lot of hunting, hiking, and trail riding out in the
sticks, miles and miles from anything. When in the military I had one to
many occasions where my GPS busted, batteries died, birds were'nt visible,
etc that I never relied on it. I use a GPS, but only to plug in my
starting point, waypoints and record locations. I use a good ol'
fashioned map, compass, and protractor to actually nav.
Eric
--
00 XR250R
00 DS 80 (son)
74 MR50 (original owner)
99 CR80R (daughter)
01 Lakota (wife)
Remove "spam" from reply-to
Brian McGarry
Excellent post Eric. I went through the whole GPS gizmo craze and although
they certainly are useful, they are no real substitute for paper maps. As
Eric wrote, I too use Delorme DVD topo maps for researching riding areas at
home while on the computer. For field use, I print out Delorme topo maps
with GPS grids and download an area reference map to my GPS antenna equipped
Palm pilot. The map screen on the Palm Pilot is way to small for navigation,
but it's still useful as an aid in pin-pointing your location on the paper
map. When out riding, I rarely use the GPS stuff and mostly reply on memory,
a compass and paper amps
http://www.delorme.com/roadwarrior/solus3.asp
Brian
whereami
Everything you could want to know about GPS can be found here:
http://joe.mehaffey.com/ http://www.garmin.com/outdoor/
GPS Newsgroup: sci.geo.satellite-nav
I use a Garmin 176 with topo maps and metroguide, National Geographic TOPO!
State series California USGS MAPS for making paper maps and downloading
waypoints and routes.
If you want to download USGS maps of your riding area:
http://www.gisdatadepot.com/
Randy
"Dudley Cornman" <Dudley....@eku.edu> wrote in
news:2002Mar13.1...@acs.eku.edu:
murray
> Dudley Cornman wrote:
>
> Personally, I do a lot of hunting, hiking, and trail riding out in the
> sticks, miles and miles from anything. When in the military I had one to
> many occasions where my GPS busted, batteries died, birds were'nt visible,
> etc that I never relied on it. I use a GPS, but only to plug in my
> starting point, waypoints and record locations. I use a good ol'
> fashioned map, compass, and protractor to actually nav.
>
> Eric
Sounds like you have done your homework on this subject.
I was asked by DJones to help out at ISF02 this year in
possibly leading some of the group rides through the Idaho mtn's.
All I could think of was "I have no idea where we are" most of
the time we are riding up there. Sure I recognise some of the
land marks but in relation to where the trail head is, or where
camp is I am in most cases completely relying on his knowledge of
the trail.
Here would be some of my questions.
1. If I take a map with me on a ride an write down the GPS Q's for
all the trail heads and some landmarks, is it possible for someone
elses GPS to read different Q's than mine?
2. Is this even desirable?
3. Is this something you could give to other people at ISF02 and feel
confident that you won't be sending then to there doom in the Idaho
wilderness?
4. You people attending ISF02, is this something you are interested in?
I think this would give people alot more freedom to choose what kind
of riding they want to do for the days at the fest.
Most loops we ride at the fest take all day, this is something alot of
people arent used to. They think that we will stop back at camp for
lunch and fuel. In most cases you leave at 9:00am or so and return by
5:00pm or so.
This isn't always desireable for some of the people with Hangovers,
Kids,or just plain want to sleepin.
Most of the loops do have places where you can cut out early and shorten
the ride or even start later and meat the group at a particular point in
the ride.
Any feedback you can give me will be greatly appreciated.
Thanx in advance
Murray
(93 WR250)
Ad
Geocaching is a sport where you actualkly go look for hidden
'treasures' using a GPS unit. they have great tips on their site,
especially if you goto the DISCUSS link, and the select forums.
(I cannot give you the link, since my comp already has the 'cooky' for
the site and goes into cgi rather than a conventional link)
I am actually thinking about combining my trailriding with geocaching.
BRGDS Ad,
--------------------------------
2000 KTM400SXC
Boise, ID
It's important to keep asking questions - Albert Einstein
Eric
> Eric <ewb...@azob.quikspam.com> wrote in message
> news:<bsSj8.612$9d3....@newsfeed.intelenet.net>...
>> Dudley Cornman wrote:
>>
>> Personally, I do a lot of hunting, hiking, and trail riding out in the
>> sticks, miles and miles from anything. When in the military I had one to
>> many occasions where my GPS busted, batteries died, birds were'nt
>> visible,
>> etc that I never relied on it. I use a GPS, but only to plug in my
>> starting point, waypoints and record locations. I use a good ol'
>> fashioned map, compass, and protractor to actually nav.
>>
>> Eric
>
> Sounds like you have done your homework on this subject.
> I was asked by DJones to help out at ISF02 this year in
> possibly leading some of the group rides through the Idaho mtn's.
> All I could think of was "I have no idea where we are" most of
> the time we are riding up there. Sure I recognise some of the
> land marks but in relation to where the trail head is, or where
> camp is I am in most cases completely relying on his knowledge of
> the trail.
There's not an electronic gizmo in the world that will beat familiarity
with the terrain!
>
> Here would be some of my questions.
>
> 1. If I take a map with me on a ride an write down the GPS Q's for
> all the trail heads and some landmarks, is it possible for someone
> elses GPS to read different Q's than mine?
Yes, it's possible. Not all GPS's are created equally, and this is one
area you really do get what you paid for. But most likely they will be the
same or close enough. A hundred meters off is not going to be a problem,
as long as your trailhead is marked.
>
> 2. Is this even desirable?
Sure, people trade GPS coord all the time. That is a common way for people
to give directions these days. Hell, if you have a palm with the gps kit,
you can beam maps and coord back and forth with your buds.
>
> 3. Is this something you could give to other people at ISF02 and feel
> confident that you won't be sending then to there doom in the Idaho
> wilderness?
I have never rode ISF or anything like it. But, people competing in that
should have some ability to land nav. How likely is it that all
competitors will have their own GPS? If not, then a crappy map with GPS
coord won't do any good for a rider who is lost. Better would be copies of
a good topo map, something that they could compass/terrain associate their
way out with, and also include GPS coord for the riders who have GPS.
Also, in areas where a rider is likely to get lost, provide everyone with
boundries. IE, 20 miles N. of us is Hwy 151. 25 miles South of us is Hwy
140. 3 miles W. of trail X is a river. By defining major landmarks to
everyone, it will help people to orient themselves and find there way back.
Another helpful item is maybe putting together a little "What to do if your
lost" cheat sheat. Put a description of major landmarks in relation to the
location of the main camp on it.
> 4. You people attending ISF02, is this something you are interested in?
>
>
> I think this would give people alot more freedom to choose what kind
> of riding they want to do for the days at the fest.
> Most loops we ride at the fest take all day, this is something alot of
> people arent used to. They think that we will stop back at camp for
> lunch and fuel. In most cases you leave at 9:00am or so and return by
> 5:00pm or so.
Well, the obvious solution here is to stash fuel, steaks, beer, and grills
in various places throughout the trail system, then people won't have to
come back:>)
> This isn't always desireable for some of the people with Hangovers,
> Kids,or just plain want to sleepin.
> Most of the loops do have places where you can cut out early and shorten
> the ride or even start later and meat the group at a particular point in
> the ride.
>
> Any feedback you can give me will be greatly appreciated.
> Thanx in advance
>
> Murray
> (93 WR250)
>
Good luck, hope the event goes off well for you.
Jim Cook
>I have never rode ISF or anything like it. But, people competing in that
>should have some ability to land nav. How likely is it that all
>competitors will have their own GPS? If not, then a crappy map with GPS
>coord won't do any good for a rider who is lost. Better would be copies of
>a good topo map, something that they could compass/terrain associate their
>way out with, and also include GPS coord for the riders who have GPS.
>Also, in areas where a rider is likely to get lost, provide everyone with
>boundries. IE, 20 miles N. of us is Hwy 151. 25 miles South of us is Hwy
>140. 3 miles W. of trail X is a river. By defining major landmarks to
>everyone, it will help people to orient themselves and find there way back.
>Another helpful item is maybe putting together a little "What to do if your
>lost" cheat sheat. Put a description of major landmarks in relation to the
>location of the main camp on it.
>
<Jim sez>
Which competition is that?
Spode of the Fest?
Advanced Bench Racer?
Jim Beam competion around the Campfire?
Best Crash?
Most Spodely Maneuver?
This is not a "Rally" or a race. Just a FUN get-together among those
who like it (or are crazy) enough to be willing to travel (sometimes)
over a thousand miles to attend.
>Good luck, hope the event goes off well for you.
>Eric
Oops! The Spodefests (the one in ID is affectionately referred to
as the Spudfest) are "Non-Organized" "Non-Events". (One must go
through all sorts of government BS in order to hold an event.)
One of the requirements for a "Non-Organized Non-Event" is that there
is no entry, or attendance, fee.
I am backing off my racing schedule, this year, to hopefully be able
to attend several such Non-events.
Jim Cook
Wudsracer
'99 Gas Gas EC 274
Team LAGNAF
SMACKOVER Racing
www.smackovermotorsports.com
"We Only Ride on Days That End in Y"
Dudley Cornman
Thanks all...
The truth is I don't really know enough yet to really know what I want. I
don't really need GPS so much for survival... it's not that easy to get lost
in KY. It's more just a curious desire to be able to look at the GPS then
put my finger on a paper map and say.. we are exacly here I guess. Also
might be neat to compare our local hare scramble track from one race to the
other to see what was different.
In other words at the moment I see GPS as must another toy. I don't even own
a GPS yet but one riding buddy has one and I'm watching Ebay for a steal...
you know how often a real steals comes along. :)
Anyway... If I'm looking to spend less than $100 on a used handheld...
suggestions? What features must I have, what don't I need, etc. Out of
curiousity, what would a used bar mounted unit run me? Which ones?
dsc
Dudley Cornman
> I have never rode ISF or anything like it. But, people competing in that
> should have some ability to land nav. How likely is it that all
> competitors will have their own GPS? If not, then a crappy map with GPS
> coord won't do any good for a rider who is lost.
That depends on how you define... good. It can take them back where they
started from... which if that's the only option sounds good to me.
In some cases back tracking by wit will just get you more lost.
dsc
Better would be copies of
> a good topo map, something that they could compass/terrain associate their
> way out with, and also include GPS coord for the riders who have GPS.
> Also, in areas where a rider is likely to get lost, provide everyone with
> boundries. IE, 20 miles N. of us is Hwy 151. 25 miles South of us is Hwy
> 140. 3 miles W. of trail X is a river. By defining major landmarks to
> everyone, it will help people to orient themselves and find there way
back.
> Another helpful item is maybe putting together a little "What to do if
your
> lost" cheat sheat. Put a description of major landmarks in relation to
the
> location of the main camp on it.
All good advice, but I don't see how adding a few coords to that map hurts
the man with a GPS...
>
> > This isn't always desireable for some of the people with Hangovers,
> > Kids,or just plain want to sleepin.
> > Most of the loops do have places where you can cut out early and
shorten
> > the ride or even start later and meat the group at a particular point
in
> > the ride.
> >
> > Any feedback you can give me will be greatly appreciated.
> > Thanx in advance
It sounds like a great idea to provide that info... those who can take
advantage of it and want too... great. Those that can't/don't want too... no
harm done.
You may also use it to rounte out easier ways around really bad stuff so
that everyone arrives at the same meeting place down the road. You can have
some major fun pre-riding the trails and collecting the info as well. :)
dsc
john
the 12map has 36 hour battery life
eTrex Vista is nice too...
water proof is nice option btw
john
"Dudley Cornman" <D...@eku.edu> wrote in message n>
Derek Turner
There's never been a trail map made for my favorite local riding area.
I've thought about making one myself. I already have Delormes Topo USA
3.0. Couldn't I buy a Palm Pilot w/ GPS setup like yours to get GPS
tracks of the trails as I ride them, then upload them into Topo USA?
Thanks.
Derek
whereami
All of the GPS recievers that I know of record a breadcrumb trail of your
track that you have ridden. There are several map programs that you can
download the track from the GPS onto a map. !TOPO is one .
Randy