What 'blue' for P-51 Bluenosers?
Mike Dawson
I'm doing a series of P-51s from the 352nd FG 'Bluenosers' (Preddy, Meyers,
et.al.). The question is... What is the correct shade of blue for the nose?
Several references use different shades of blue. I have a Heller kit which
says to use one shade (French Blue, I think), one Hasegawa kit which says to
mix two paint colors to get the correct shade, a second Hasegawa kit which
says to mix a different set of colors, and finally, a set of Microscale
decals which say to use 'Insignia Blue F.S.35044'.
Without further information I would tend to trust the Microscale decal sheet
more than the model kit manufacturer (although I could easily be wrong
here). That means I should use Insignia Blue F.S.35044.
I like to work with acrylics (I mainly use Gunze-Sanyo) and the closest I've
come to that color (according to the colors FAQ) seems to be GS H326.
Except that this is a gloss paint. If this is the correct color shade how
can I flatten the color? Should I mix it with a flat base? I've heard
mention of adding talcum powder. Does this work?
In summary then, my questions are:
1) What is the correct blue for the 'Bluenoser' P-51s?
a) F.S. color if known
b) Paint manufacturers color if known
2) What is the best way to 'flatten' a gloss paint?
Thanks in advance for any help here.
--
Mike Dawson
Chiron Corp. (IS&T)
Emeryville, CA
Mike_...@cc.chiron.com
Voice: (510) 420-4259 FAX: (510) 420-4820
-------------------------
Joe Hegedus
I finished a Monogram Pa-51D as Preddy's airplane a few months ago, and I used
Testors MM French Blue from the car line for the nose. It looks ok to me. IMO,
insignia blue is too dark. There are a couple of photos on blue-nose mustangs in
"The Mighty Eighth in Color" by Roger Freeman, and, although one photo is dark and
the other is kind of washed-out, a nice medium blue would work. If you don't like
French Blue, you could try Testors 1110 Blue in the little bottles. It's a bit
darker than French blue.
Joe
In article <4s6dib$a...@genji.chiron.com>, Mike_...@cc.chiron.com says...
Todd Enlund
Mike_...@cc.chiron.com (Mike Dawson) wrote:
>2) What is the best way to 'flatten' a gloss paint?
>Thanks in advance for any help here.
This may sound like a "flip" response, but I use dullcoat. I really
like Xtracolor, but they are all gloss (makes decalling easier, and
sprays much finer without clogging the tip). After decalling, I
overspray with dullcoat.
Todd Enlund
"Bandits at 3 O'clock"
"Roger. What should I do 'till then?"
Rusty Harris
Joe Hegedus wrote:
>
> I finished a Monogram Pa-51D as Preddy's airplane a few months ago, and I used
> Testors MM French Blue from the car line for the nose. It looks ok to me. IMO,
> insignia blue is too dark. There are a couple of photos on blue-nose mustangs in
> "The Mighty Eighth in Color" by Roger Freeman, and, although one photo is dark and
> the other is kind of washed-out, a nice medium blue would work. If you don't like
> French Blue, you could try Testors 1110 Blue in the little bottles. It's a bit
> darker than French blue.
>
>
I've noticed that it's kind of hard to judge the paint color of the WW2 planes from
the photographs of the era. With conditions and the equipment available at the time
I would guess the quality of the photo's wasn't accurate as to the colors used.
I've seen some photo's that don't look that bad, to some color photo's that look
like someone tried to scan them with a cheap hand scanner<g>.
You could paint them a shade lighter and if anyone ask, you could tell them that you
painted it as to represent a "faded" paint job<G>
Rusty/KB0GNK
1995 Ford Mustang Vehicle License
NA-P51D
Jennings Heilig
True, but you can't determine what the *actual* color was. If you want to
match your model to a photo, have at it. Nobody can prove you're wrong.
My point is, you cannot make a scientific determination of what the color
was (contrary to what some "experts" may think) based on a photo.
We all match stuff to photos all the time, or else we wouldn't be
modelers. I have to resort to matching decal colors to photos every
day...otherwise there wouldn't be any decals. Color is such a subjective
thing that it's okay to take liberties with it. Look at all the different
shades of RLM 74 (as an example) that are on the market. I'm sure all of
the manufacturers looked at the same color references when they made their
respective paints up. So why don't they look exactly alike? Because
everyone sees color a little differently.
Cheers,
Jennings
(I think I'll go build a model now!)
Edmund Hon
Jennings Heilig <jhe...@gate.net> was saying:
> I hate to burst your bubble, but you simply cannot trust *any*
> photo of *any* airplane from *any* era for color matching. The
> sooner people realize that, the happier they'll be (when it comes
> to making models, anyway). I'm sitting here looking at two
Agreed 100%. I once went to an airshow where you can get really close to the
F-16s, A-10s etc in the static display area. When the day is over I said to
myself "To heck with all those reference materials." Since no two aircraft in
real life is alike anyway.
/// __ / edm...@ipoline.com
/// /_ dmund / "Major? FYI, ABC needs TLAM-C BDA's PDQ or ASAP!"
/// /_/_/ / - ABC correspondent Roland Hedley,
/// / /on / during a Desert Storm press briefing
James Corley
>In article <4s6dib$a...@genji.chiron.com>, Mike_...@cc.chiron.com
says...
>>
>>I'm doing a series of P-51s from the 352nd FG 'Bluenosers' (Preddy,
Meyers,
>>et.al.). The question is... What is the correct shade of blue for
the nose?
I don't know about 352FG, but there is a P-51 on the airshow circuit,
as well as some in books, that used USAAC Blue/USN True Blue which is
~FS15102, which is finally available as PollyScale #505216 USAAC Blue
(23). I have done some navy planes from Enterprise (1940) and the color
looks about right compared to the color photos of the day. 15102 is a
lighter blue, and might be a good choice to represent a faded French
Blue...It certainly is close to the color of some of the old "Blue
Angel" aircraft (including an A-7B on I-75 near Alachua, FL) sitting
around the country.
Jennings Heilig
On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, Rusty Harris wrote:
> I've noticed that it's kind of hard to judge the paint color of the WW2
> planes from the photographs of the era.
I hate to burst your bubble, but you simply cannot trust *any*
photo of *any* airplane from *any* era for color matching. The
sooner people realize that, the happier they'll be (when it comes
to making models, anyway). I'm sitting here looking at two
photos off the same roll of film, shot at the same time about
three weeks ago, of the same airplane, in the same light, from
similar angles, and you'd never know they were the same colors.
There are about a zillion variables involved, from the angle of
the light falling on the airplane, to the film, to the developing
of the negatives, to the printing, to the age of the print paper,
to the quality (and age) of the chemicals used, to the skill of
the operator of the machine, etc, etc, etc. You just *can't*
trust even the highest quality photo reproduction if you're
looking for exact (or even inexact) color matches. The only way
to do that is to put a color sample up against the actual paint
under good lighting. And even then, there's room for differences
of opinion :)
Jennings
James Corley
In <Pine.A32.3.93.960714...@hopi.gate.net> Jennings
Heilig <jhe...@gate.net> writes:
>
>On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, Rusty Harris wrote:
>
>> I've noticed that it's kind of hard to judge the paint color of the
WW2
>> planes from the photographs of the era.
>
>
> I hate to burst your bubble, but you simply cannot trust *any*
> photo of *any* airplane from *any* era for color matching. The
> sooner people realize that, the happier they'll be (when it comes
>
> Jennings
>
But Jennings,
Many people feel that if they match the color found in the photo,
it is good enough. I have been at contests (as an entrant and as a
judge) where some of the judges refused to accept photographic evidence
when a modeller tries to justify some modification he has made.
It depends on how anal the modeller and/or judge wants to be. A
case in point is the paint for your Valujet decals. The paint has to be
made from a recipe. I have seen people who have taken the same recipe
and come up with two very different colors. This is especially true
when dealing with military subjects. WW2 naval colors were made by
adding so many pints of blue tint to so many gallons of base tint, etc.
The mixing was done by the people onboard the ship, and sometimes they
didn't have enough of whichever tint to mix it properly, and the colors
aren't accurate anymore.
Joe Hegedus
In article <31E88A...@dialnet.net>, Rusty says...
>
>Joe Hegedus wrote:
>>
>> I finished a Monogram Pa-51D as Preddy's airplane a few months ago, and I used
>> Testors MM French Blue from the car line for the nose. It looks ok to me. IMO,
>> insignia blue is too dark. There are a couple of photos on blue-nose mustangs in
>> "The Mighty Eighth in Color" by Roger Freeman, and, although one photo is dark and
>> the other is kind of washed-out, a nice medium blue would work. If you don't like
>> French Blue, you could try Testors 1110 Blue in the little bottles. It's a bit
>> darker than French blue.
>>
>>
>
>I would guess the quality of the photo's wasn't accurate as to the colors used.
>I've seen some photo's that don't look that bad, to some color photo's that look
>like someone tried to scan them with a cheap hand scanner<g>.
>
>You could paint them a shade lighter and if anyone ask, you could tell them that you
>painted it as to represent a "faded" paint job<G>
>
>Rusty/KB0GNK
>1995 Ford Mustang Vehicle License
>NA-P51D
I agree that you can't accurately judge paint color from WW2 photos, or any other
photo for that matter. My interpretation between the two photos I saw was "medium
blue", someone else may have a different opinion. I used what looked good to me,
and if someone else uses a different shade, so what? It's his model.
Joe
Tom Gourlie
jdco...@ix.netcom.com(James Corley ) wrote:
>I don't know about 352FG, but there is a P-51 on the airshow circuit,
>as well as some in books, that used USAAC Blue/USN True Blue which is
>~FS15102, which is finally available as PollyScale #505216 USAAC Blue
>(23).
(snip)
I looked this up in a Japanese publication called North American P-51
Mustang, which contains paint chips and FS numbers; it calls the
colour Light Blue (looks more mediumish to me) and the FS #15102 backs
up James' response.
Regards,
Tom
Bill Michaels
In article <Pine.A32.3.93.960714...@hopi.gate.net>,
jhe...@gate.net says...
<Snip>
>
> I hate to burst your bubble, but you simply cannot trust *any*
> photo of *any* airplane from *any* era for color matching.
> trust even the highest quality photo reproduction if you're
> looking for exact (or even inexact) color matches. The only way
> to do that is to put a color sample up against the actual paint
> under good lighting. And even then, there's room for differences
> of opinion :)
>
> Jennings
>
Excellent point!
To further muddy the waters, I remember seeing a similar thread in the pages
of Model Aviation. (The pilots of scale RC aircraft are required to provide
proof of color references with their models in certain classes/events.)
Anyways, the gist of the thread was that the P-51 "bluenosers" weren't really
blue at all. They were really green, and the blue came from old/faded/etc.
photos. There was lots of discussion about photofinishing processes from
that era, and some recollections from actual participants. As I recall, it
was never conclusively proved or rebutted.......
This was 3-4 years ago, I think. Maybe somebody else remembers...?
Tom Gourlie
bi...@teloquent.com (Bill Michaels) wrote:
>Anyways, the gist of the thread was that the P-51 "bluenosers" weren't really
>blue at all. They were really green, and the blue came from old/faded/etc.
>photos. There was lots of discussion about photofinishing processes from
>that era, and some recollections from actual participants. As I recall, it
>was never conclusively proved or rebutted.......
>This was 3-4 years ago, I think. Maybe somebody else remembers...?
I wonder if you're thinking of the P-51's that were natural metal,
with Olive Drab on top of the wings and sort of dabbled on the upper
surfaces- those were thought by many to have been blue, and were even
depicted in artwork in blue, but turned out to be Olive Drab?
Hope I'm not just confusing matters...
Regards,
Tom
jcai...@freenet.vcu.edu
>Anyways, the gist of the thread was that the P-51 "bluenosers" weren't really
>blue at all. They were really green, and the blue came from old/faded/etc.
>photos. There was lots of discussion about photofinishing processes from
>that era, and some recollections from actual participants. As I recall, it
>was never conclusively proved or rebutted.......
>
So now we know. Hermann Goering (who allegedly gave the
'Blue-Nosed Bastards of Bodney' their nickname) was color-blind
as obviously were many of his pilots who reported contacts
with blue-nosed P51s w/PE and HO codes. For that matter so
were the many members of the 352nd who helped put together
their group's history. Or perhaps we're seeing colors through
post-war eyes that have had their rods and cones mutated by too
much strontium-90 in our milk. So the sky is green and grass
is blue.
What's the next ridiculous assertion?
--
Jim Caiella
Steve Reid
> depicted in artwork in blue, but turned out to be Olive Drab?
> Hope I'm not just confusing matters...
Not to worry, adding to the confusion is impossible. Nobody knows
what they're talking about, anyway.
-Steve
William Reece
I doubt that there is an 'official blue' for the 352nd FG. Check the
color and markings section in the book Escort to Berlin. This excellent
book about the 4th fighter group has a detailed section on colors and
markings of that group's Mustangs. The red used for the noses of the 4th's
P-51's was obtained from local British sources and in many cases was
thinned to make it 'go farther'. The book also states that the painting
was carried out by the least experienced squadron personnel.
I would think almost any medium blue would do, such as Testors 1110
blue in the small bottle. Prep it as you would any other Testors paint in
order to airbrush.
Try the new Polly Scale flat. It is very smooth and airbrushes well. It
is dead flat.
William Reece
Fly Navy!
Joe Hegedus
In article <4sdvrd$o...@news-old.tiac.net>, bi...@teloquent.com says...
>To further muddy the waters, I remember seeing a similar thread in the pages
>of Model Aviation. (The pilots of scale RC aircraft are required to provide
>proof of color references with their models in certain classes/events.)
>
>Anyways, the gist of the thread was that the P-51 "bluenosers" weren't really
>blue at all. They were really green, and the blue came from old/faded/etc.
>photos. There was lots of discussion about photofinishing processes from
>that era, and some recollections from actual participants. As I recall, it
>was never conclusively proved or rebutted.......
>
>This was 3-4 years ago, I think. Maybe somebody else remembers...?
>
Are you sure that they are referring to the "Blue-nosed" Mustangs, and not to
"Lou IV" and a couple of other P-51's of the 361st FG? I seem to recall a lot
of discussion about what color was used on these birds for field-applied camo, and
have not, to my satisfaction, seen anything to conclusively make the call either way.
(although, I tend to believe that the color used was some variation of O.D. or dark
green rather than blue. But, I like the way blue looks on the Wings and tail, and
until I see something that is 100% reliable, that can override several eye-witness
accouts and "The Mighty Eighth", that states "no blue", I am keeping my "Lou IV" blue!)
I am, however, reasonably sure that the blue-nosed Mustangs (Cripes-a-Mighty,
Petie 2nd, etc.) were in fact blue. The exact shade? Hard to say, I prefer some-
thing in a nice French blue for mine, you may like something else.
Joe
Todd Enlund
jdco...@ix.netcom.com(James Corley ) wrote:
> Many people feel that if they match the color found in the photo,
>it is good enough. I have been at contests (as an entrant and as a
>judge) where some of the judges refused to accept photographic evidence
>when a modeller tries to justify some modification he has made.
The exact color in the photo depends on the lighting and exposure. A
well exposed photo will give you something near the actual color, but
a poorly exposed photo can render, say RLM 04 as white. How many
times have you seen a photo of a dark aircraft with a WHITE sky?
There are simply too many variables involved in photography to make
any judgements other than comparisons with other colors in the same
photo. There is a black & white photo of a Zero in the In Action
book... the caption states that the aircraft has a red rudder. I'm
sorry, but the rudder was merely positioned so that it was shaded and
the rest of the aircraft was in the sun.
I recently took some photos of 4 aggressor F-16s at CFB Cold Lake.
Two of them were painted in a blue scheme that was so bright that we
could see it from the other end of a 12,800 foot runway like it was
glowing. When I got my photos back, the color was merely a pale blue
color, due to the overcast sky.
I'm not an accuracy fanatic when it comes to colors on my models...
I'll cheat a bit if it makes my model more striking... but I'd hate to
be cheated by painting my F-16 the color in my photo, when I know how
much brighter the real thing is.
Steve Reid
In article 59...@origin.ea.com, Chris Douglas <cdou...@origin.ea.com> writes:
>
> What about Cripes A-Mighty? Is there some suggestion that ITS nose
> wasn't
> blue, but OD? Say it ain't so...
>
Sorry, once it's posted it becomes true, forever!
LeonardR
In article <William_Reece-1...@reece.hort.ncsu.edu>,
Willia...@ncsu.edu (William Reece) writes:
> I doubt that there is an 'official blue' for the 352nd FG. Check the
>color and markings section in the book Escort to Berlin. This excellent
>book about the 4th fighter group has a detailed section on colors and
>markings of that group's Mustangs. The red used for the noses of the
4th's
>P-51's was obtained from local British sources and in many cases was
>thinned to make it 'go farther'.
Another defeat for the Color Police!
Chris Douglas
Tom Gourlie wrote:
>
> bi...@teloquent.com (Bill Michaels) wrote:
>
> >Anyways, the gist of the thread was that the P-51 "bluenosers" weren't really
> >blue at all. They were really green, and the blue came from old/faded/etc.
> >photos. There was lots of discussion about photofinishing processes from
> >that era, and some recollections from actual participants. As I recall, it
> >was never conclusively proved or rebutted.......
>
> >This was 3-4 years ago, I think. Maybe somebody else remembers...?
>
> with Olive Drab on top of the wings and sort of dabbled on the upper
> surfaces- those were thought by many to have been blue, and were even
> Hope I'm not just confusing matters...
>
What about Cripes A-Mighty? Is there some suggestion that ITS nose
wasn't
blue, but OD? Say it ain't so...
--
-----------------------------------------------------
Chris Douglas - cdou...@origin.ea.com
Production Designer/Animator - Origin Systems, Inc.
-----------------------------------------------------
Opinions expressed are my own.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
You have escaped from it, but it is there, always following you.
It is there, in your heart and your mind, in the very depths and
recesses of your being. You have covered it up, escaped, run
away; but it is there. And the mind must experience it like a
purgation by fire. --Krishnamurti.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jennings Heilig
Please...please please, read *all* the posts. The originator
of this post was somewhat confused. He was thinking about the
old "blue" camouflaged P-51 question (vs. green), not the blue
nosers. The Blue Noseres probably were blue, otherwise they
would probably *not* have been called the Blue Nosers, now
would they?
So, to set the record straight, the Blue Nosers had blue noses,
and the "blue" camouflaged P-51s were most likely not blue, but
some shade of green or OD. (oh God, I feel another thread coming
on).
Jennings
Tom Gourlie
>What about Cripes A-Mighty? Is there some suggestion that ITS nose
>wasn't
>blue, but OD? Say it ain't so...
Chris,
Sorry, didn't mean to scare you to death like that... I'm reasonably
sure (at least as far as any of us can be) that the "Blue-Nosers"
(Cripes A'Mighty, Patty Ann II, Petie 2nd, et al) were, indeed, blue.
The OD planes I was referring to were those ones in that very famous
aerial colour photo, flying in formation. It looks in the photo like
they're OD over NM- but some colour-blind artist did a 3 view painting
of one of them (#413926 code E2*S of the 361st FG) and he made the
plane bright blue over NM. It's things like this that really throw
everyone for a loop. How the hell can anyone know which sources to
trust?? (By the way, I've seen a newer picture in a later
publication, painted by Keith Fretwell, which looks very similar,
except he corrected the plane to OD over NM)
Regards,
Tom
Matthew Y. Hayashibara
Jennings Heilig <jhe...@gate.net> wrote:
> The Blue Noseres probably were blue, otherwise they
> would probably *not* have been called the Blue Nosers, now
> would they?
And if you need it explained why certain floks are called
"Brown-Nosers"... :-)
> So, to set the record straight, the Blue Nosers had blue noses,
> and the "blue" camouflaged P-51s were most likely not blue, but
> some shade of green or OD. (oh God, I feel another thread coming
> on).
Jennings, tell us about "Lou IV"...
Oh, there, now I've done it!!! 8-D
MadMat
trying a minty green for a change
PNMoss
The new series of Testors Model Master colors include True Blue and Bright
Blue. I think True Blue was used as a squadron designator for tween-war
naval planes; I don't know about Bright Blue. FWIW, they both look
reasonably close to color drawings I've seen of blue-nose Mustangs. Based
on the look of the paint in the bottles, I'd go with Bright Blue. Pip Moss
Michael Wolf
<snip>
> >
> >Anyways, the gist of the thread was that the P-51 "bluenosers" weren't
really
> >blue at all. They were really green, and the blue came from
old/faded/etc.
> >photos. There was lots of discussion about photofinishing processes
from
> >that era, and some recollections from actual participants. As I
recall, it
> >was never conclusively proved or rebutted.......
> >
their 'Stangs really didn't have blue noses ...
Just my $0.02 ...
John Hairell
In article <Pine.A32.3.93.960714...@hopi.gate.net> Jennings Heilig <jhe...@gate.net> writes:
>From: Jennings Heilig <jhe...@gate.net>
>Subject: Re: What 'blue' for P-51 Bluenosers?
[stuff snipped]
> The only way to do that is to put a color sample up against the actual paint
> under good lighting. And even then, there's room for differences
> of opinion :)
Jennings, your comments are right on as far as determining colors from a/c
photogaphs, and as to that last one, here's one for you: I had a conversation
recently with a guy from the National Institute of Standards. We were talking
about FS595 and he laughed. His office had wanted to get a more
"scientific" paint standard put in place but couldn't. They had looked at
FS595 and found it wanting. Take two different FS595 decks and compare them.
You will sometimes find variations. I have two decks and the greens are
slightly different from deck to deck. Even holding up an FS595 fan deck and
going for a color match is no "guarantee"..
And as far as that infamous "Lou IV" P-51 pic, I read somewhere many years ago
that the pilot had been asked and said it was OD, not blue. Of course, my
memory is as faded as olive drab under a tropical sun....
And now, back to those "black" helicopters...
John Hairell (jhai...@pop200.gsfc.nasa.gov)