ARM: Xtracolour Panzer paints examined
David Byrden
Hilary Doyle, and Tom Jentz are now close to completion of a
definitive book which uses the original Army orders and manufacturers'
paint
references of the war, to define and date the exact colours which were
used. Mr. Doyle has kindly allowed some of their findings to be published
here.
This information is duplicated on my Panzer Colours Page at
http://www.iol.ie/~goyra/PanzerColours.html
I would have liked to match Mr. Doyle's findings against a modern colour
standard, or against all the available ranges of modelling paints; but this
would have taken quite a long time, and also he wishes to retain some
information secret until the book is published.
What he has allowed me to do, is take paints manufactored by Xtracolour,
who are a specialist brand aiming to reproduce historical colours, and
compare their Panzer colours to the definitive references which he has
discovered. Here are the results.
Where I say "very good match" I mean that the difference is tiny and could,
in all probability, occur between different batches of wartime paint. Where
I
say "quite wrong" I mean that the colour is WAY off, as though the
manufacturers had been given the wrong reference (which may not be their
fault).
Xtracolour 800 = RAL 7021 = Panzer Grey
Very good match. Correct hue,. a little too dark
Xtracolour 801 = RAL 8002 = Signalbraun (prewar)
Quite wrong.
Xtracolour 802 = RAL 7016 = Anthracitgrau
What's this doing here? It's a Luftwaffe colour. And it's not close - too
dark.
Xtracolour 803 = RAL 8000 = Grunbraun (for North Africa)
Quite wrong.
Xtracolour 804
Is there an 804 in the Xtracolour range? Didn't find it on sale.
Xtracolour 805 = ?? = Dunkelgelb (dark yellow)
Hereby hangs a tale! See below.
Xtracolour 806 = RAL 6003 = Olivgrun (late war)
Very good match. Should be a little lighter & yellower.
Xtracolour 807 = RAL 8017 = Schokoladebraun (late war)
Close, but too dark, and needs to be a little more red.
Xtracolour 808 = RAL 8020 = tan yellow (for North Africa)
Not a close match.
Xtracolour 809 = RAL 7027 = sand grey (for North Africa)
Not a close match.
p.s. RAL 7008 was used in North Africa, do Xtracolour make it?
Xtracolour 818 = ?? = German Tank Interior Colour
This is not close to the official interior colour RAL 1001 at all. It is
close to the colour which we found inside the Tiger 1 at Bovington, but
we think this tank was an exception of some sort.
In any case, this paint is not veryclose to the Tiger 1 - it's the correct
brightness but somewhat too pink.
The Dark Yellow controversy
ne of the most common colours on German tanks in the latter part of the
war was Dunkelgelb (it had a RAL number, which I don't have to hand
right now). Dunkelgelb translates as Dark Yellow which is rather
unfortunate because any English-speaking person would describe the colour
as Grey-Brown. The German language has its own ideas about the meaning
of the word gelb and a direct translation is not possible. This has led to
may quite incorrect colours being used in models and illustrations over the
years.
The Xtracolour paint described as Dunkelgelb does fit the English
description dark yellow so of course it is quite different to the official
Dunkelgelb manufactured in Germany during WWII. I intend to write to the
manufacturers and ask what was their source for this colour. It may have
been the Dunkelgeb in the *modern* RAL reference book - but that's not the
same thing.
In fact, by a strange coincidence, the Xtracolour paint X809, which is
supposed to be something else completely, is a very good match for official
Dunkelgelb!
A thankyou to all who told me where to find Xtracolour paints
on sale in London.
David
Mike Kendall
(snip)
> The Dark Yellow controversy
>ne of the most common colours on German tanks in the latter part of the
>war was Dunkelgelb (it had a RAL number, which I don't have to hand
>right now). Dunkelgelb translates as Dark Yellow which is rather
>unfortunate because any English-speaking person would describe the colour
>as Grey-Brown. The German language has its own ideas about the meaning
>of the word gelb and a direct translation is not possible. This has led to
>may quite incorrect colours being used in models and illustrations over the
>years.
>The Xtracolour paint described as Dunkelgelb does fit the English
>description dark yellow so of course it is quite different to the official
>Dunkelgelb manufactured in Germany during WWII. I intend to write to the
>manufacturers and ask what was their source for this colour. It may have
>been the Dunkelgeb in the *modern* RAL reference book - but that's not the
>same thing.
>In fact, by a strange coincidence, the Xtracolour paint X809, which is
>supposed to be something else completely, is a very good match for official
>Dunkelgelb!
> A thankyou to all who told me where to find Xtracolour paints
>on sale in London.
> David
"Gelb" means "yellow", or "amber colored" in German (my family has German
roots), and can (and is) directly translated. The RAL number of the time was
7028, which I understand from friends in Berlin does not currently exist in
the current RAL color scheme.
However, I and others have seen the paint behind pieces of gear removed from
German armor being repaired in museums, mostly untouched except by age, and
the average color is distinctly brownish yellow with a hint of green, similar
to most hobby paint manufacturer's dunklegelb paints. The color varied in
Germany at the time (as paint shades did in all nation's in WWII), and can be
either yellow or green in tint, and may be light or dark.
This hunt for the perfect dunkelgelb match is unnecessary and an exercise in
futility as there are many perfect matches.
Choose the shade you like and go to it.
Mike
David Byrden
Mike Kendall <mken...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote in article
<mkendall.2...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>...
> >The Xtracolour paint described as Dunkelgelb does fit the English
> >description dark yellow so of course it is quite different to the
official
> >Dunkelgelb manufactured in Germany during WWII.
>
> However, I and others have seen the paint behind pieces of gear removed
from
> German armor being repaired in museums, mostly untouched except by age,
and
> the average color is distinctly brownish yellow with a hint of green,
similar
> to most hobby paint manufacturer's dunklegelb paints.
If you have any samples or records of colours that you found on
original equipment, Mr. Doyle would be glad to hear of them. One of the
big problems holding up his forthcoming book on Panzer colours is the
tantalising references to "dark yellow without serial number" that some
documents make.
David
Mike Kendall
(stuff snipped)
>> However, I and others have seen the paint behind pieces of gear removed
>from
>> German armor being repaired in museums, mostly untouched except by age,
>and
>> the average color is distinctly brownish yellow with a hint of green,
>similar
>> to most hobby paint manufacturer's dunklegelb paints.
> If you have any samples or records of colours that you found on
>original equipment, Mr. Doyle would be glad to hear of them. One of the
>big problems holding up his forthcoming book on Panzer colours is the
>tantalising references to "dark yellow without serial number" that some
>documents make.
> David
No problem. I understand well the situation with the notation "without
serial number".
By the way, one of the best color references, this side of the big pond, for
original dunkelgelb is the Stug III currently living at the Patton Museum at
Fort Knox. This is one of the best paint preserved (read "unaltered by museum
staff, etc.") WWII German vehicles that I know of in the Western Hemisphere.
Please invite Mr. Doyle over to this side and I'll meet him at the museum.
There is another recent addition to the collection, that also might be of
interest.
Mike
David Byrden
Mike Kendall <mken...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote in article
<mkendall.2...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>...
> By the way, one of the best color references, this side of the big pond,
for
> original dunkelgelb is the Stug III currently living at the Patton Museum
at
> Fort Knox.
I might be able to take you up on that. What state is Fort Knox in?
Can one get close access to vehicles if one is a bona fide researcher?
And what sort of brown is this vehicle, anyway? Pantone or any other
reference
we have in common would be appreciated!
Once again, we'd like to know what vehicles people have seen
original colours on. Dunkelgelb is a nagging problem. I checked with Mr.
Doyle and what he has actually obtained is a genuine 1940s reference
card for Dunkelgelb, with the correct RAL number. Grey-brown is the
only way to describe it. But the Germans had been through five or six
OTHER shades of brown by 1943.
David
Mike Kendall
>> By the way, one of the best color references, this side of the big pond,
>for
>> original dunkelgelb is the Stug III currently living at the Patton Museum
>at
>> Fort Knox.
> I might be able to take you up on that. What state is Fort Knox in?
>Can one get close access to vehicles if one is a bona fide researcher?
>And what sort of brown is this vehicle, anyway? Pantone or any other
>reference
>we have in common would be appreciated!
> Once again, we'd like to know what vehicles people have seen
>original colours on. Dunkelgelb is a nagging problem. I checked with Mr.
>Doyle and what he has actually obtained is a genuine 1940s reference
>card for Dunkelgelb, with the correct RAL number. Grey-brown is the
>only way to describe it. But the Germans had been through five or six
>OTHER shades of brown by 1943.
> David
David,
Ft. Knox is the "Home of Armor" for the US Army, and is located in Northern
Kentucky, just South West of Louisville, KY. Come on down, bring your
reference card for dunkelgelb, and we'll have a holiday. With prior notice,
and a flexible schedule, one can often receive permission to get right up
to the vehicles displayed in the museum. You might also be interested
that the insides of the storage lockers on two of these vehicles are
originally painted primer red....
Mike
Paul A. Owen
I have noticed, at least with Tamiya paints, that the blends change
from bottle to bottle. I have two un-opened bottles of their dark
yellow and one is distincly greenish (old from two years ago) and a new
bottle I just purchased is more grey/brown in shade.
Perhaps Tamiya changed the blends, or they break down over time
or something.
At this point I dont really care anymore!
Paul.
Paul A. Owen
Is it true that dark-yellow replace dark-green as the primary colour
right at wars end?
Could this have been a seasonal change? Photographs seem to suggest
that the Ambush pattern was back in vouge at wars end too? Another
seasonal change?
Comments?
Mike Kendall
>Comments?
Paul,
The dunkelgelb is supposed to have once again replaced the green in the spring
of '45, but IMHO it's gettin' way to complicated for me. There were very
few records kept by this time in the war and everything was, or had been for a
while, running out. One reference says by spring any color was possible, and
then another shows a beautifully ambushed camoed Tiger II rolling out of the
factory doors!
Maybe were all gettin' a little too anal about this end of the war paint
thing. Seems to me one of the reasons I got into armor modeling in the first
place was to escape the craziness of aircraft color and markings experts I was
running into during my earl modeling days. Armor provided concepts like field
repainting and weathering to keep most color experts away. Now even I find
myself discussing interior turret floor colors, like it really means something
to somebody....
One cool thing I try to remember is that the Germans did have the most
advanced concepts of armor camo in WWII of any of the combatants. Some of the
concepts are still with us into the 21st century. That's probably one of
the main reasons why I like modeling German vehicles as much as I do, not
because I have to be an expert on exact color matches for each day of the
week, but because they're so damn colorful. I think we should get back to
saying things like "most vehicles were painted...", or "you're safest painting
the Panther..... for that period", instead of "all Tiger II battery boxes were
painted..... during June of '43".
Anybody else?
Mike
Not A Number
Gee, that's exactly some of the reasons I switched to armour modeling
myself. Other than the fact that tanks take up a whole lot less shelf
space then aircraft models. Just glue the <expletive deleted> hatches
shut and why worry about the interior...
Now what exactly was the shade of pink that was used on the
Waffenfarbe of Panzertruppen? <g>
Thierry Laurent
So did I fellows!
Thierry
RAYMOND J. MEHLBERGER
Thierry,
I'm sorry, but I cannot go along with the statement that tanks take up a
whole lot less shelf space than aircraft models. You should see how much
more space a 1/35 scale tank takes up vs a 1/72 airplane. What yardstick
are you using??? Specially if you put your tanks in dioramas. I do whole
heartedly agree, however, with the statements made about exact colors
used during a certain time period. We are getting a little too hung up.
Ray
Thierry Laurent
Hi Ray!
That's a fact I was essentially agreeing with the color statements.
On another hand, concerning the needed space, it depends on what you
build! Personally, I essentially made post-war fighters, US navy
airplanes (EC-121, Tracker, Neptune, Tomcat, etc.) and WW2 bombers (B17,
B25, Lancaster, Halifax, etc.). I'm sure you agree than even a 1/35th
Jagdtiger is much smaller than a 1/72th B-17!
Thierry
RAYMOND J. MEHLBERGER
Thierry,
Glad you elaborated on your statement. Yes a bomber in 1/72 is much
larger than a 1/35 tank, in most cases. I thought we were talking a
single engined fighter at first.
Ray