Gemini Capsule Color?

Craig

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Oct 4, 2002, 11:11:40 PM10/4/02

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Read that the nose was more of a dark grey than flat black as it appears
in most pics.

anyone confirm/deny?

Craig

Greg Heilers

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Oct 4, 2002, 11:45:23 PM10/4/02

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Craig wrote:

[Greg Heilers responds:]

Well, what color does it APPEAR to be in photos, or true life?
Then THAT is the correct color?

Remember all the hilarity that ensued, when Hasegawa released their 1/72nd
scale SR-71, with the startling revelation that the real color was "indigo
blue"? How many models did we see that were painted blue?
[lots]

What color is the REAL aircraft (not the official "paint chip" color, but
the color it LOOKS?)
[black...faded, weathered, patchy, dirty, black]

Ron Smith

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Oct 5, 2002, 1:23:32 AM10/5/02

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Actually the correct color is indigo, I don't recall the FS number offhand. A mix
of 75/25 lampblack/payne's grey is about right. Now keep in mind that's right out
of the paint shop. Fly an SR-71 once at speed and altitude and the color tends
more towards a very dark grey from the friction and resulting heat and their
effects on the surface of the paint. It keeps getting a little greyer each time
it flies until they repaint it again. There is little if any actual "weathering"
of the aircraft while they were in service as they were kept in hangars and not
exposed to the elements beyond their flight times.

The black and silver A-12's did in fact use black paint but when they went to an
all painted scheme they used the same indigo as used on the SR-71.

Yes, I've handled a paint shop fresh part or two and the color does have a
distinctly blue cast to it in bright light. It is not black or grey.

For models, I'd use a 50/50 mix flat black/RLM 66 and 10 or so drops of insignia
blue to a 1/2 ounce bottle of the mix. Add more or less RLM 66 depending on how
aged you want the paint, lots of mission marks=greyer, skunk logo on the
tail=paint shop fresh and almost black.

Rufus

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Oct 5, 2002, 1:49:47 AM10/5/02

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I got to have a seat in a Gemini capsule which had actually been into
space as a kid, and I seem to recall it being black, but that's a
childhood memory...and it may have been repainted for the tour. There
was a Mercury capsule on display with it - I recall both of them as
being black, but I'd still suggest you confirm what I remember.

In any case, it sounds like yet another good use for Model Master
"Aircraft Interior Black" which is sort of off-black; I used it for the
"Anthicite Grey" called out for the cockpit of my 1/32 Hunter, and am
thinking of trying it on tires.

--
- Rufus

Ron Smith

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Oct 5, 2002, 1:58:50 AM10/5/02

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It works fine for tires.........I've used it often.

Craig

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Oct 5, 2002, 9:22:26 AM10/5/02

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Testors makes a "rubber" color paint. has a brown tint to it....

Craig

plasticmodeler

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Oct 5, 2002, 10:14:54 AM10/5/02

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IIRC the exterior skin of the Mercury and Gemini capsule were of a bare
metal that had a very dark patina like the Inconel used on the X15 series
acft. The capsules I remember seeing had the same coloration as the X15 and
it did not seem to be painted. The surface was way too smooth as you can
tell the surface of natural metal when compared to a painted surface.

--
Scott A. Bregi

Model Building is FUN!.........model building is fun.......model building is
?$#!!*?##!%$?&%$##!!

"Rufus" <srol...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:3D9E7D80...@mchsi.com...

Rufus

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Oct 5, 2002, 3:24:47 PM10/5/02

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Yeah - I have some of that. I think it's a bit too brown for the
Gemini...but another useful one.

Rufus

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Oct 5, 2002, 3:32:52 PM10/5/02

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That's what makes me think the ones I saw may have been painted. My
faded memory recalls them looking almost like industial plastic, though
I also recall exhaust stains around the thrusters...now I'm really confused.

The ones I'm talking about were part of a display at the Chicago Museum
of Science and Industry. Would have been in the early to mid '60's.
Anyone else see them?

--
- Rufus

Ron Smith

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Oct 5, 2002, 4:09:26 PM10/5/02

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I'm well aware and use it for US tires. German tires were made from synthetic
rubber with lots of carbon black in them and did not go brownish like tires of
natural rubber tend to do.

Greg Heilers

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Oct 5, 2002, 5:31:12 PM10/5/02

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plasticmodeler wrote:

> IIRC the exterior skin of the Mercury and Gemini capsule were of a bare
> metal that had a very dark patina like the Inconel used on the X15 series
> acft. The capsules I remember seeing had the same coloration as the X15
> and it did not seem to be painted. The surface was way too smooth as you
> can tell the surface of natural metal when compared to a painted surface.
>
> --
> Scott A. Bregi
>
> Model Building is FUN!.........model building is fun.......model building
> is ?$#!!*?##!%$?&%$##!!
>
>

[Greg Heilers replies:]

I think Scott has described it pretty well. I have seen them plenty of
times in Huntsville (both Mercury and Gemini) over the years. That "very
dark metallic" quality seems to stick in my mind. I definitely does not
look simply painted.

Rick DeNatale

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Oct 5, 2002, 8:21:40 PM10/5/02

to gvht...@earthlink.net

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

In article <ASIn9.11002$lV3.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
Greg Heilers <gvht...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> plasticmodeler wrote:
>
> > IIRC the exterior skin of the Mercury and Gemini capsule were of a bare
> > metal that had a very dark patina like the Inconel used on the X15 series
> > acft. The capsules I remember seeing had the same coloration as the X15
> > and it did not seem to be painted. The surface was way too smooth as you
> > can tell the surface of natural metal when compared to a painted surface.
>

> I think Scott has described it pretty well. I have seen them plenty of
> times in Huntsville (both Mercury and Gemini) over the years. That "very
> dark metallic" quality seems to stick in my mind. I definitely does not
> look simply painted.

Keep in mind that the flown spacecraft were subject to reentry
conditions. Some of the paint didn't stand up too well to that.
Pictures of the Mercury capsules prior to launch indicate that they
were indeed painted black, or a dark gray For example:

http://images.jsc.nasa.gov/images/pao/MA9/10073785.jpg

Shows Gordon Cooper being inserted in to Faith 7, which seems to be
close to black.

Cece Bibby, the woman who painted the "nose art" on Friendship 7,
Aurora 7, and Sigma 7, has a web site which shows some before and after
photos. Here is Aurora 7 before launch, in a photo which looks a little
overexposed to me.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~cecebibby/cece-nasa-2/bibby_aur
ora-7.htm

And here it is post-recovery
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~cecebibby/cece-nasa-2/bibby_aur
ora-7-after.htm

Which shows the effect on the paint of the artwork, and a change in the
black as well.

The X-15 was also painted but the paint suffered similarly due to
repeated hypersonic flight.

--
Rick DeNatale IPMS/USA 29733.
Still Looking for a cool signature

Greg Heilers

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Oct 5, 2002, 9:45:34 PM10/5/02

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Rick DeNatale wrote:

> [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
> the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

[Rick provided dome info:]

> Keep in mind that the flown spacecraft were subject to reentry
> conditions. Some of the paint didn't stand up too well to that.
> Pictures of the Mercury capsules prior to launch indicate that they
> were indeed painted black, or a dark gray For example:
>
> http://images.jsc.nasa.gov/images/pao/MA9/10073785.jpg
>
> Shows Gordon Cooper being inserted in to Faith 7, which seems to be
> close to black.
>
> Cece Bibby, the woman who painted the "nose art" on Friendship 7,
> Aurora 7, and Sigma 7, has a web site which shows some before and after
> photos. Here is Aurora 7 before launch, in a photo which looks a little
> overexposed to me.
>
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~cecebibby/cece-nasa-2/bibby_aur
> ora-7.htm
>
> And here it is post-recovery
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~cecebibby/cece-nasa-2/bibby_aur
> ora-7-after.htm
>
> Which shows the effect on the paint of the artwork, and a change in the
> black as well.
>
> The X-15 was also painted but the paint suffered similarly due to
> repeated hypersonic flight.
>

[Greg Heilers replied:]

Yeah.....this is pretty much the color I remember seeing.
Not quite "painted", but not quit pure "natural metal" either.
It really has an anodized quality to it. I would describe it
as a VERY dark gun-metal. Perhaps a "Payne's Gray" with a
VERY SLIGHT amount of metallic added to it. You would need a
metallic component with extremely fine pigment, much finer than
the average model paint. Perhaps (if using enamels), a small
bit of professional paste-type silver printers ink. If using
acrylics, perhaps a TINY bit of SNJ "dust" might work.

EmilA1944

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Oct 6, 2002, 12:57:06 AM10/6/02

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>I'm well aware and use it for US tires. German tires were made from
>synthetic
>rubber with lots of carbon black in them and did not go brownish like tires
>of
>natural rubber tend to do.
>

Actually,

"Natural rubber" tires tend to weather out to a gray (bought a 1931 Model A
roadster in 1964 with original natural rubber tires for it, remember that color
very well!), as did late-40's to middle 50's synthetic rubber tires, certainly
on cars.

Modern car tires actually have two colors of rubber in them, be they domestic
US or imports: Very black treads, with sidewall rubber that is actually a
brown-black color (check out a new car on the dealer's lot in bright sun, you
will see it).

Lots of discussion in past couple of months on Model T Ford Club International
message board about those so-called "white rubber" tires of the early 1900's to
the early 20's. Gist of the thing is those tires faded very quickly in use, to
a light gray as well, were never white rubber.

Even those early tires not made with carbon black in the rubber weren't white,
even though they seem so in period pics. Natural latex rubber when vulcanized
comes out a light buff color, just like those "yellow wall" bicycle tires.

Art Anderson

Ron Smith

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Oct 6, 2002, 2:22:44 AM10/6/02

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Try powdered graphite in either enamel or acylic, it'll work just fine.

plasticmodeler

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Oct 6, 2002, 2:34:57 AM10/6/02

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I called a good friend and probably the best modeler I know, Ben Guenther.
Remember the LLRV and other scratch built acft from previous National IPMS
conventions? He co-authored the Aerofax Datagraph (2) book on the X-15. He
stated that the capsules are made of some alloy made of ??? and beryllium
then coated with a ceramic coating that gives it a flat black to a tire
black, gunmetal/blue steel color kind of color.

Scott A. Bregi

Model Building is FUN!.........model building is fun.......model building is
?$#!!*?##!%$?&%$##!!

"Greg Heilers" <gvht...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:2BMn9.10815$OB5.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

CaptCBoard

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Oct 6, 2002, 3:23:00 AM10/6/02

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The corrugated parts (shingles) of both the Mercury and Gemini capsules are an
alloy called Rene 41. The parachute compartments are beryllium. The color
should be an almost-black with a tinge of blue. Both appear to be the same
color, though you can see a difference when you look hard enough, with the
beryllium being a bit bluer. The sheen is not quite dead-flat, but satin may
be too shiny in scale.

Scott
CaptC...@AOL.com

Dominique Durocher

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Oct 7, 2002, 12:05:19 AM10/7/02

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In article <3D9F3E69...@mchsi.com>, Rufus <srol...@mchsi.com> wrote:

> The ones I'm talking about were part of a display at the Chicago Museum
> of Science and Industry. Would have been in the early to mid '60's.
> Anyone else see them?

Saw them when I was there for Nats last year. They seemed the same as all
the others (4-5) I've seen, but the lighting in there is awful for
determining colour.

Dom

--
Dominique Durocher | drak...@sympatico.ca
Lair of the Draken | http://www3.sympatico.ca/draken35/index.html
MonSFFA | http:www.monsffa.com
Don't be afraid of the dark... be afraid of what hunts in the dark.

The Old Timer

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Oct 7, 2002, 7:03:01 AM10/7/02

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The history of things that didn't happen has never been written - Henry
Kissinger

Dennis L. Rodgick

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Oct 7, 2002, 3:59:44 PM10/7/02

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Why not get the various books from Apogee books at your local
Barnes and Nobles and/or Borders book stores? They have
great reference and a CD Rom loaded with info.

Hope this helps.

Rick DeNatale

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Oct 7, 2002, 11:35:12 PM10/7/02

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I'm quite sure that Mercury and Gemini capsules were painted a very
nearly black color. The metallic effect only shows up after reentry.
Whether the finish looks black or gray is to a large extent dependent
on the exposure of the photograph.

As an example here's an unflown production Mercury spacecraft on
display at the Kansas Cosmosphere. There are three photos on this page
two show the capsule as black, while in the third it looks gray, they
are obviously taken of the same museum display, and the third photo is
overexposed.
http://aesp.nasa.okstate.edu/fieldguide/pages/mercury/ME-10.html

Here's another unflown Mercury, this one was supposed to be MA-10 and
be Alan Shepard's second Mercury flight

http://aesp.nasa.okstate.edu/fieldguide/pages/address/a-f/ames.html

The photos I've looked at of pre-reentry Mercury and Gemini capsules
all seem to indicate that they were painted black or a very dark gray,
with no metallic tone, just some highlights due to the beads on the
shingles. The black to gray variations seem to be mostly due to
photographic exposure. Local lighting conditions can also account for
some of the "color" variations. The on orbit photos of Gemini 7/6
predominately show the recovery section to be black. There are a few
with some color variations, but these are likely due to the use of
filters.

If I wanted to model a Mercury or Gemini in pre-launch or on-orbit
configuration, I'd use a very dark gray If I were trying to model a
recovered spacecraft, I'd go for the metal showing through what's left
of the paint look.

CaptCBoard

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Oct 8, 2002, 2:23:37 PM10/8/02

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<< I'm quite sure that Mercury and Gemini capsules were painted a very nearly
black color. The metallic effect only shows up after reentry. >>

I have to reiterate here-- none of the capsules were ever painted. The
difference in color seen in photos is due to the exposure of the negative or
the processing of the prints. I've photographed and measured MA-10 myself and
the only place where paint was applied is under the logo "Freedom 7 II". I
will speculate here and say that the unflown capsules at the Kansas Cosmosphere
are reproductions (which the KC used to make) and may be painted. I know they
have the escape tower from MA-10, but as far as I know MA-10 is the only Merc
that was never flown.

Scott
CaptC...@AOL.com

Rick DeNatale

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Oct 8, 2002, 10:41:33 PM10/8/02

to CaptCBoard

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

In article <20021008142337...@mb-cd.aol.com>, CaptCBoard
<captc...@aol.comXSPAMX> wrote:

There were actually several unflown production Mercury spacecraft. Mike
Mackowski give a list at
http://www.getnet.net/~mjmackowski/ref/merc/merc1.html. A more official
source is appendix 6 of the official NASA Project Mercury Chronology
(PMC) which is on the web at http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4001/app6.htm

According to "The Field Guide to American Spacecraft "
http://aesp.nasa.okstate.edu/fieldguide/pages/mercury/index.html the
one at the Cosmosphere is spacecraft 10. According to the PMC this was
"Project orbit and R&D test bed (not flown)"

The PMC states that Spacecraft 17 was also unflown and is at the US Air
Force Museum at Wright Patterson.

According to the PMC Spacecraft 19 was an unflown backup for Schirra's
MA-8 flight. The Field Guide lists this as being at the Swiss Museum of
Transport and Communication in Lucerne.

The evidence as to whether or not the Mercury or Gemini spacecraft were
painted or not is not based on whether they appear black or gray in
photos, which does depend on the exposure, but whether or not the
black/gray appears uniform or if there are metallic tones showing
through the black/gray as the flown vehicles appear today post-reentry.
The photos I've looked at of Mercury spacecraft which have not
undergone reentry, both the unflown examples in museums, and the photos
of flown vehicles prior to flight all appear to be unform in color
without metallic tones showing through. So do the inflight photos of
the re-entry modules of Gemini spacecraft, which were of similar
construction and materials. Whether or not it was paint, both species
of spacecraft started out with a uniform nearly black finish, which
changed considerably during re-entry. To my eye the flown capsules
look like the paint (or whatever the finish was) has been sandblasted
(or more accurately ablated).

The pre-flight color seemed to be the same on both the Rene-41 conical
section and the berylium recovery section for example look at this
photo of Cooper's Faith 7 being mated to the Atlas

http://images.ksc.nasa.gov/photos/1963/medium/63-MA9-61.jpg

The only tonal variations appear to be highlights due the the bead
angles catching direct sunlight.

Further evidence that the external finish was NOT natural metal comes
from the NASA Report "Results of the First United States Manned Orbital
Space Flight" which was reprinted by Apogee books. Quoting from pate
26 in the Apogee reprint:

"The Mercury spacecraft afterbody heat protection, ... consists of a
double-wall construction..."
"On the outer conical surface and antenna section thin high-temperature
alloy (Rene 41) shingles are used. On the outer cylindrical section
thicker shingles of beryllium are used in a heat-sink arrangement.. THE
SHINGLES ARE BLACKENED to aid the radiation of heat away from teh
spacecraft and they are attached to the basic structure in such a
manner that they can expand and contract with temperature changes
without transferring loads to the primary load carrying spacecraft
structure." (Emphasis mine).

I KNOW that the X-15s were painted, and they show similar "weathering"
effects from hypersonic flight.

I'm confused by your comments regarding MA-10. Although I've not seen
it in the flesh (or more accurately the "Rene-41 and Berylium") I've
got several photos from different sources. All of them show a uniform
coloration. The ones that David Weeks sent me seem to be correctly
exposed and show the external shingles as a uniform black.

CaptCBoard

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Oct 10, 2002, 4:18:19 AM10/10/02

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Well... Rick is correct. When I'm wrong, I'm really wrong...

I have to say that even when I was photographing and measuring MA-10, I wasn't
paying attention to the finish. What I saw looked like a metal surface and I
never even thought about it. However, I've gone through my photos and there is
all kinds of evidence that the shingles are coated with something. I have to
stop short of calling it paint, though; but there is definitely something that
shows wear and scratches. I should also say that the finish had to have been
applied on each individual piece before assembly as there is a complete lack of
anything stuck between parts. In my defense, I have to point out that the area
where the mission logo is painted has definitely been painted with black paint,
with the mission logo painted over it. The difference between this black paint
and the surrounding shingles definitely sells the shingles as being unpainted!

I should also say the beryllium plates of the parachute compartment appear to
be without the same treatment as the Rene 41 shingles. Both areas are very
close in color, so I have no idea what's going on!

Scott
CaptC...@AOL.com

Vance Henize

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Oct 10, 2002, 6:35:33 PM10/10/02

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Just because metal is blackened doesn't mean it was painted - there are many
ways to color all sorts of metals, as per the anodization of aluminum.

On the other hand, I have little to say on the Mercury capsules themselves,
since I have never seen one that wasn't flown other than to suggest that
many museums are guilty of painting their exhibits since this helps them
last longer.

Just thought I'd add some fuel to the fire...

-v-

"CaptCBoard" <captc...@aol.comXSPAMX> wrote in message
news:20021010041819...@mb-da.aol.com...

Rick DeNatale

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Oct 11, 2002, 11:36:29 AM10/11/02

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In article <Vgnp9.130498$121.3...@twister.austin.rr.com>, Vance
Henize <vhe...@houston.rr.com> wrote:

> Just because metal is blackened doesn't mean it was painted - there are many
> ways to color all sorts of metals, as per the anodization of aluminum.
>
> On the other hand, I have little to say on the Mercury capsules themselves,
> since I have never seen one that wasn't flown other than to suggest that
> many museums are guilty of painting their exhibits since this helps them
> last longer.
>
> Just thought I'd add some fuel to the fire...
>
> -v-

In my earlier posting, I did say that the blackening was not
necessarily paint, but could have been some other metal finishing
technique. I haven't seen a specification for the finish other than
the remark that the shingles were blackened.

Whatever the finish was it appears to have been applied to the Rene 41
shingles individually prior to assembly.

Scott privately sent me a photo he had taken of the unflown "Freedom 7
II" which shows significant patches of worn black showing bare metal in
the area between the window an the hatch.

These photos seem to me to provide evidence that the finish on the Rene
41 shingles was in fact paint rather than a chemical or electrochemical
finish, because where it's worn away it's worn away completely. It
looks reminiscent of the paint wear on a Japanese WWII plane. I
suspect that the finish was in fact a single coat of paint with no
primer coat. The beryllium shingles on the recovery compartment might
well have had a chemical finish instead of paint. I can't recall seeing
scratches or missing paint on these parts of any of the spacecraft I've
seen.

As for Museums painting the vehicles, none of the flown vehicles I've
seen in museums have shown no evidence of restoration. Most ot them are
displayed in a protective plexiglass "cocoon". As far as I know the
only flown Mercury which has been restored is MR-4 a.k.a. Liberty Bell
7, which was restored for obvious reasons.

plasticmodeler

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Oct 11, 2002, 12:04:57 PM10/11/02

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As per my contact at NASA, the Rene 41 and beryllium shingles were finished
in a ceramic coating that gave it a sort of flat gun blueing color to it.
They were not spray painted nor were they bare metal. They had a baked-on
(sintered?) ceramic coating to increase heat resistance and insulation
properties!

Scott A. Bregi

Model Building is FUN!.........model building is fun.......model building is
?$#!!*?##!%$?&%$##!!

"Rick DeNatale" <dena...@ctc.net> wrote in message
news:111020021136299804%dena...@ctc.net...

Tom Hiett

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Oct 11, 2002, 12:11:08 PM10/11/02

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Rick DeNatale <dena...@ctc.net> wrote:

> In my earlier posting, I did say that the blackening was not
> necessarily paint, but could have been some other metal finishing
> technique. I haven't seen a specification for the finish other than
> the remark that the shingles were blackened.

I haven't followed the whole thread, so if this has been mentioned before,
please disregard.

You might try writing the Cosmosphere in Kansas. They claim to be the
world's only space artifact restoration facility in the world. They
restored Liberty Bell 7 and Apollo 13 and are somehow an affiliate wing of
the Smithsonian. They also restored an unflown Mercury capsule for their
own collection.

Asking the right people is cool. Years ago some of us here were arguing
about the right color for a transaxle on a McLaren M8-B Can Am car, I
wrote McLaren's nephew who I had been corresponding with. His mom runs the
Bruce McLaren Trust and they have all the factory records. It wasn't black
paint but something called Dow #7, a coating to help preserve the aluminum
from corrosion. IIRC. this is the dark green/black moldy looking stuff we
see on transaxles at vintage races.

Tom