Japanes air ace Saburo Sakai dead at 84
Patrick Shanahan
a heart attack in Japan on Friday, whilst attending a dinner with US military
officers at Atsugi Base. He was 84.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/092600/japan_pilot.sml
Thought this might be of interest to WW2 aircraft modelers, as Sakai was
perhaps the best known Japanese ace of WW2 and the subject of a fairly good
movie in the 1970's. Do not know the English title or if it was released in
the US, saw it overseas.
PC
militarist who maintained that the Rape of Nanking was fiction and that
Korean "comfort women" were "just looking for cash now that Japan is a rich
nation".
Check it out here: http://www.danford.net/sakai.htm
The article is titled "An afternoon with Saburo Sakai"
Patrick Shanahan <patrick....@teldta.com> wrote in message
news:rY4A5.3769$4j7.7...@ratbert.tds.net...
Denis Winters
its one of the better book written from the Japanese side:
Denis Winters
IPMS 31989
bill...@my-deja.com
patrick....@teldta.com (Patrick Shanahan) wrote:
> Just read that Japanes WW2 air ace Saburo Sakai (64 victories) passed
away of
> a heart attack in Japan on Friday, whilst attending a dinner with US
military
> officers at Atsugi Base. He was 84.
>
> http://www.foxnews.com/world/092600/japan_pilot.sml
>
> Thought this might be of interest to WW2 aircraft modelers, as Sakai
was
> perhaps the best known Japanese ace of WW2 and the subject of a
fairly good
> movie in the 1970's. Do not know the English title or if it was
released in
> the US, saw it overseas.
>
many years ago, and one particular part stuck with me. Don't remember
all the details, but the jist of it was that he was shot-up pretty bad
and almost completely blind, and still managed to fly his damaged plane
and navigate his way back to base. It was a rather long ordeal if I
remember right.
He was also a member of a small, rather elite club- Japanese fighter
pilots who survived the war.
I'm sorry to hear he's gone.
Bill Wilson
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
HMills16
with Saburo Saki. To look at him and how he carried himself, you thought this
was just a gentle old grandfather.....until you looked at his eyes. He had the
eyes of a warrior. I spent three wonderful days with the grand old man and
Gabreski, Glenn, Cernan, Yaeger and others. Man, did I feel that all the world
was a tuxedo and I was a pair of brown shoes! "A warrior died today"
Hugh Mills
HMills16
Hugh Mills
JMChladek
combat with F4Fs and F6Fs. He was truely a master. I only have one word to say
in his passing.
BANZAI!!!! (In a sad sort of way)
Jay Chladek
José Herculano
>
> Jay Chladek
Do you know what that word means?
--
José Herculano
Steve Faxon
MBishop446
Mike
Mikus
Strength and Honor
steve...@my-deja.com
Gary.W.
MBishop446
Mikus
Strength and Honor
MBishop446
Mikus
Strength and Honor
Robert J. Payne
honorable person after he has died??? Man, I don't get it. Lots of people
were killed in the war and it is over. I guess the hate isn't. I wouldn't
build "bad guy planes" then. Dang it!!!!
--
Robert J. Payne
P.O. Box 1502
Clearwater, SC 29822
MBishop446 <mbish...@aol.com> wrote in message
20000927160644...@ng-cf1.aol.com...
jp5...@my-deja.com
mbish...@aol.com (MBishop446) wrote:
> Just rather sorry the SBD gunner missed. After all they were the bad
guys.
> Mikus
>
> Strength and Honor
>
Check your history, It was an Avenger not a Dauntless. The reason he
got shot up was because he mistakenly identified a flight of Avengers
as Widlcats, by the time he got close enough to tell the difference he
was being shot at.
As it was the gunner didn't miss, He caused significant damage to the
Zero and inflicted injuries critical enough to cause Sakai to be
confined to hospitals for a prolonged period.
Richard Bong, Tommy McGuire, Neal Kirby, Joe Foss, Marion Carl, David
McCampbell and others ran up some impressive kill records as well,
shouldn't they also be maligned? I wonder if you would feel the same if
you were Japanese.
The fact that the man was unrepentant and refused to change his stance
concerning his beliefs does not diminish the skill he exhibited with an
aircraft. Is it wrong to have respect for that skill because of the
the ideals and beliefs he had.
I suppose you probably feel the same way about Adolf Galland and Eric
Hartmann.
Jonathan Primm
JP5...@aol.com
william Shuey
jp5...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Check your history, It was an Avenger not a Dauntless.
Wrong. Sakai jumped a flight of SBDs from Bombing six. See "Winged Samurai"
by Henry Sakaida.
Bill Shuey
John Lawson
were indeed Dauntlesses (from VB-6 and VB-5). Sakai's book "Samurai" was
the victim of an inaccurate translation.
FYI, Mr. Mikus, in 1983, Sakai met one of the SBD gunners who shot him
up...they shook hands, talked and carried on like old friends, and agreed
that it was a good thing that the gunner's aim was just a tad high. Ref:
page 152 of "Winged Samurai" by Henry Sakaida, from the Champlin Fighter
Museum Press, Mesa, AZ (1985). Look it up and see the photos and
description of their reunion. Obviously Harold "Lew" Jones (the gunner)
and Sakai saw fit to acknowledge that the war was long over and that times
had changed. Sakai denounced the Emperor and the hierarchy that started
the war, and often said that he received a much friendlier welcome in the
US (especially among the members of the American Aces Association) than he
did in Japan.
So much for your ignorant, knuckleheaded, off-the-cuff remark, Mikus. If
you don't feel like a Grade-A, 100%, unadulterated dumb-ass, you SHOULD.
Idiot.
Semper Fi
John
Jean S and/or Jeff C
<herc...@mail.telepac.pt> wrote:
>> BANZAI!!!! (In a sad sort of way)
>>
>> Jay Chladek
>
>Do you know what that word means?
>
"A Thousand Years!"
Traditionally it was the challenge of a warrior on his way to battle,
meaning that his accomplishments will last that long. That the
Kamikaze used it has changed its interpretation in the West, but that
is a recent development.
--
Jeff C
RLHD
KMartin512
> I thought Banzai translated to "Long Life" ??
>
NO!!!!! It means "beautiful bush"........
Kevin Martin
Rob Gronovius
his country or beliefs than one who does not.
Rob Gronovius
Major, U.S. Army
Wildcat
E McCann
"To little trees!"
"No, not Bonsai, Banzai!"
--
-Eric
egmc...@hotmail.com
http://airmodeller.tripod.com
"KMartin512" <kmart...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000927184759...@ng-da1.aol.com...
Alan Tart
> I suppose you probably feel the same way about Adolf Galland and Eric
> Hartmann.
It would of been my pleasure and honor to shoot the Jap and both these
Germans in the head as the mother of the Americans they killed
watched........exactly the same thing the Japs and Germans would of done to
American pilots it they won the war.
I really don`t understand how any American could shake these aces hands or
sit in the same room with them and not have the overwelming urge to kill
them.
I met Joe Foss and was honered , Adolf ,Hartman and Sakai were the enemy
and STILL deserve to be treated as such. I see no honor in what they did.
Alan
>
Unamodeler
Joe Partin
these
Germans in the head" --End snip
Alan
Following your line of logic, we should just kill anybody who serverd in an
army that opposed the US? So all the German, Jap and Itilian pow's should
have just been shot when they were captured?
--
Joe Partin jr
JPa...@Bellsouth.net
JoePa...@Hotmail.com
Alan Tart
winning and taking over the far east and on to the USA. These people wanted us
dead or under their control and they would not of been nice about it. Sakai was
a tool to do this and i would never want to be near him for any reason.
As far as the Germans (and i have German blood ) they are simply the nastiest
people on earth and smart enough to do the nasty deeds of the devil. Lets hope
they NEVER become strong and confident again. Every time it leads to another
war.
I have nothing against any Japanese or German of todays
generations but the WWII fighters i do not want to be in the same room with.
Its disrepectful to the men who died
from the barrels of their guns.
Alan
jp5...@my-deja.com
John;
I stand corrected. I read "Samurai" by Martin Caidin and Saburo Sakai in
the early '70s, and I referenced the Time/Life Series "Epic of Flight"
both of which stated that it was a flight of Avengers that he
encountered. Apparently, both books used the same sources and something
must have been lost in the translation.
Mistaking TBFs/TBMs for F4Fs would be easy enough to do from a distance,
so it made sense when I read it.
Still, to be as shot up as he and his aircraft was, it was an awesome
feat of piloting/navigation and an amazing display of will, and sheer
guts to fly back from Guadalcanal to Rabaul, regardless of what his
political convictions were.
Norm Filer
and STILL deserve to be treated as such. I see no honor in what they did.
Alan
Alan
What did the latter folks do that was different than the former? And don't
give me all the political business here. We are talking about individuals,
not countries or ideologies.
If the people who flew against them were willing to accept that there was a
considerable bond between them and found pleasure and enjoyment being
together, and in many cases became life time friends, why should a very
distant ( and perhaps closed minded) observer take exception.
Like many, the man served his country with considerable honor. Unlike some,
he saw the error of his ways and recanted in later years. He put his life
on the line for his country repeatedly, and suffered the rest of his life
because of it.
I would suggest his only failing was being born in Japan at a bad time. And
for that you would speak poorly of his memory?? shame on you!!
Norm
steve...@my-deja.com
JMChladek
>Traditionally it was the challenge of a warrior on his way to battle,
>meaning that his accomplishments will last that long. That the
>Kamikaze used it has changed its interpretation in the West, but that
>is a recent development.
Exactly and I can't think of a more fitting word. Lets hope that the
accomplishments and the lessons of that war and all who fought in it will last
at least that long, no matter what language they speak.
Jay Chladek
MODEL HAWK
>
>It would of been my pleasure and honor to shoot the Jap and both these
>watched........exactly the same thing the Japs and Germans would of done to
>American pilots it they won the war.
>
>I really don`t understand how any American could shake these aces hands or
>sit in the same room with them and not have the overwelming urge to kill
>them.
>
>and STILL deserve to be treated as such. I see no honor in what they did.
>
> Alan
I think you're a troll but, I'll play along for one post.
Your feelings of hate toward the Germans and Japaness seem incredibly strong.
Which theater did you serve in during WW-II; Europe or Pacific? What about the
Italians, by the way. They were the enemy too (until late in the war). You
didn't mention them. Do you hate them too?
The only one I ever knew that continued to hold bitterness toward a former
enemy anyhwere near what you seem to have was my father-in-law. He was in the
Eighth AF in WW-II and was wounded twice on missions. His brother was in the
100 BG and was killed on the 10 Oct 43 Munster raid. I giess he earned the
right to be a bit bitter.
My cousin was in the 101st for the D-Day and Operation Market Garden jumps. He
was also at Bastogne that Christmas. If anyone earned the right to be bitter,
he did. Before he passed away in the late 70s, he told me stories that would
curl your hair about his experiences in the war. Yet, in spite of all that, he
was able to put his bitterness aside and move on with the rest of his life.
To be so hateful toward Germans and Japanese, you must have had a terrible
experience in WW-II (which theater again?). The capacity for forgiveness is
what makes us the the well-rounded human beings we are. There's nothing you
can do about it now, 55 years after the war ended. Carrying that much hate can
only keep you awake at night and give you indigestion. Let go of the dark
side, Alan, and get on with your life.
Cheers......Bill
----------
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot!
------Rudyard Kipling------
My Home Page: http://members.xoom.com/Modelhawk/modelhawk.index.html
Justin Wigg
news:8FyA5.6523$wO6....@news4.mco...
> Following your line of logic, we should just kill anybody who serverd in
an
> army that opposed the US? So all the German, Jap and Itilian pow's should
> have just been shot when they were captured?
Everyone in England better watch out then.
--
He who laughs last... | Justin Wigg - Hobart, AUSTRALIA
...thinks slowest. | Reply: justi...@yahoo.com
Alexander LaBrecque
resisted, opposed or subverted the Third Reich?
Alex LaBrecque
evang...@earthlink.net
Rob Gronovius wrote in message
<20000927192256...@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
wink...@pop.phnx.uswest.net
serve in the military?
klw
Alan Tart wrote:
> Im just saying the Japanese started WWII against the USA with the intention of
> winning and taking over the far east and on to the USA. These people wanted us
> dead or under their control and they would not of been nice about it. Sakai was
> a tool to do this and i would never want to be near him for any reason.
>
> As far as the Germans (and i have German blood ) they are simply the nastiest
> people on earth and smart enough to do the nasty deeds of the devil. Lets hope
> they NEVER become strong and confident again. Every time it leads to another
> war.
>
> I have nothing against any Japanese or German of todays
> generations but the WWII fighters i do not want to be in the same room with.
> Its disrepectful to the men who died
> from the barrels of their guns.
>
> Alan
>
> Joe Partin wrote:
>
> > Snip--"It would of been my pleasure and honor to shoot the Jap and both
> > these
> > Germans in the head" --End snip
> >
> > Alan
> >
> > Following your line of logic, we should just kill anybody who serverd in an
> > army that opposed the US? So all the German, Jap and Itilian pow's should
> > have just been shot when they were captured?
> >
E McCann
As odd as it may sound, you can defend your country without defending its
beliefs - many of the Germans who were fighting off the invasion of Europe
(OK, they invaded outward, then got invaded themselves) weren't nazis. Some
did resist. Others... well, given how the Germans and Russians treated each
other, I'm sure they felt (on both sides) dying fighting was better than
having "the other guy" on the land.
"Alexander LaBrecque" <evang...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:71CA5.787$9z5....@newsread03.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Rob Gronovius
jp5...@my-deja.com
Alan Tart <T...@tsh.com> wrote:
> Im just saying the Japanese started WWII against the USA with the
intention of
> winning and taking over the far east and on to the USA. These people
wanted us
> dead or under their control and they would not of been nice about it.
Sakai was
> a tool to do this and i would never want to be near him for any
reason.
>
> As far as the Germans (and i have German blood ) they are simply the
nastiest
> people on earth and smart enough to do the nasty deeds of the devil.
Lets hope
> they NEVER become strong and confident again. Every time it leads to
another
> war.
>
> I have nothing against any Japanese or German of todays
> generations but the WWII fighters i do not want to be in the same
room with.
> Its disrepectful to the men who died
> from the barrels of their guns.
>
> Alan
>
Alan;
I'm kind of curious, Have you ever served in the military? I retired
after 21 years. I served in the Marine Corps and the Army.
I can tell you that there were at least two administrations that I
thought were corrupt and and shouldn't have been in office. I didn't
agree with their foreign policies and I was often embarrased while
stationed overseas knowing that the President of The United States was
Jimmy Carter, and even more appaled when having to serve with Bill
Clinton as a commander in chief. I damn sure didn't agree with their
policies, but I felt compelled to serve my country. That was only part
of the reason, I felt more strongly about working and serving with the
people I knew and to come up short and to let them down when I was
needed most was an unacceptable option.
We in this country like to believe that people who fight for democaracy
are more noble and virtuous than those how happen to be fighting on the
other side.
So Germans are the nastiest people on earth and the Japanese started
World War II in order to take over Asia and the United States? Well
haven't the Japanese done that? How many Japanese companies have
factories and offices in this country and those of east Asia? The
Germans are so nasty and evil, they ridded themselves of a communist
government.
I submit that the governments of those nations might have been corrupt
and ambitious, but label everyone in the country is wrong.
The idea that the best and only way of life is the American way is
arrogant and narrow minded and people who hold convictions like yours
are the reason wars are fought.
If you ask anyone who has been shot at(regardless of who it was), they
will tell you that they don't fight for Mom, Country, Apple Pie, the
American way and all the rest of that bullshit. I damn sure wasn't
thinking about feeding starving Somalis and what a noble mission I was
on, when assholes were dropping mortar rounds on us every night we were
in Mogadishu. The whole time I was thinking what sorry sacks of shit
the President of the United States, The Secretary of Defense, the
Secretary of State and all the rest of "Slick Willies" cronies were for
not getting us out of that shit hole sooner.
People are more concerned with watching out for their friends, fighting
for each other and fighting to survive. Those who have faced the enemy
have more respect for the people who were shooting at them, than the
gutless whiners who stayed at home. (ask anyone who was shot at by the
NVA)
If I use your interpretation, I shouldn't have any respect for anyone
who served in the Union Army because they killed some of my ancestors
at Shiloh, Chickamauga, and Franklin. I should also hate them because
they burned by great grandfather's farm in Tennessee.
Jonathan Primm
JP5...@aol.com
MODEL HAWK
>
>Im just saying the Japanese started >WWII against the USA with the intention
>of winning and taking over the far east >and on to the USA. These people
>wanted us dead or under their control >and they would not of been nice about
any >reason.
>As far as the Germans (and i have >German blood ) they are simply the
>nastiest people on earth and smart >enough to do the nasty deeds of the
>devil.
(Rest snipped)
Well, reading your latest response (I don't know why I even bother), I guess
I'm thinking you're not a troll, you're just a person who harbors a lot of
hate.
By the way, you never indicated why you continue to hold such bitterness
against a people for something that ended over 55 years ago. Are you a WW-II
combat veteran? Was your father killed in WW-II (were you even born during
WW-II)? I can't see any other reason for bearing such lingering bitterness so
long after the fact.
And it's not your business to berate of belittle those combat vets thy
shouldn't make ammends with their former enemies (and, the key word there
is...FORMER). That's their business and theirs alone. Perhaps you could take
a lesson in reconcilliation from them, but that, of course, is my opinion.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, Alan. Even people with unpopular
opinions such as the KKK, the flag-burners, and the skinheads, are entitled to
an opinion, I guess. And you're certainly entitled to yours, however
unenlightened, unrealistic, and xenophobic, or personally embarassing to you as
it might be.
That's all for me on this one.......I'm going back to modeling topics.
Cheers.........Bill
Cool Jules
heard the horrors that happend, wars war, but toture etc is not war, some of
the mass crimes were wrong, war without killing would just be a punch up.
I have always resented Germans and Japenese, cos of this, esp older ones,
but last year when i was going thru a very bad patch, the best advice i got
was from a German, a old man called Fritz, he spoke sense and the truth,
this made me think.....
I could never understand how 2 oposing soilders of WW2 could meet and shake
hands 50+ years later without teh urge to kill each other.
Most of my closest friends are Jewish, i heard what there parents went
through years ago, that wasnt human, and if Germans could do that THEN
surley there capable of doing it today.
I lot of hatred in this country now is towards Somali refugees, i too dont
like them around here but i read they helped the brits in the last war.
I admit i refuse to buy German and french products if i can, i check all
lables in supermarkets etc. Nevea moisteriser was made in Germany so i took
it back, i buy british where i can, but sometimes i have to buy French/
German stuff, same as Jap stuff, but where i can i buy british, i guess this
goes back to the feelings about the war, apart from the France thing, but
then i REFUSE to buy anything French anyway...apart from a Heller kit cos i
had no choice!!
My grandparents say to me i should learn to get on with the Germans i meet,
but why should i cos maybe the one i meet next, his grandfather toterd my
great grandfather etc.
Alan Tart wrote in message <39D27B6E...@tsh.com>...
>>
>> I suppose you probably feel the same way about Adolf Galland and Eric
>> Hartmann.
>
>It would of been my pleasure and honor to shoot the Jap and both these
Railplane
something about being "the enemy" ... Only the very very very young can
had such silly notions about the grandeur of killing. If after 50 years
you still have the urge to kill a person who is basically a stranger
hmmm ... well you probably won't live that long anyway if you did!
:o))))
Lay off those first person shooter games for bit is my advice
Rob Gronovius
For Japan it was 2 atomic explosions, for Germany it was having their country
laid to waste, divided for nearly half a century, and then having to deal with
unifying with what amounted to a third world country.
E McCann
> Most of my closest friends are Jewish, i heard what there parents went
> through years ago, that wasnt human, and if Germans could do that THEN
> surley there capable of doing it today
Hatred, bigotry, racism, and stupidity are not traits of any one
nationality, race, religion, or gender. Sure, the Germans are capable of
hating Jews today. So are Californians, Arabs, Minnesotans, Canadians,
blacks, hispanics, caucasians, and orientals.
Using events of the past to hate somebody due to race or nationality today
is rediculous, and holds up the process of peace. Don't believe me? Look
at the reasons for the wars in the Balkans, the middle east, or Northern
Ireland. The most "recent" of them, N. Ireland, has hatred going back to
the events of Cromwell's time, several hundred years ago. The middle east
and the balkans go back to ancient times. And anyone who thinks sending in
some troops with little blue hats, or dropping bombs on some positions
today, will stop that hatred, is in for a rude awakening. It may be
repressed for a while... but it'll still be there.
Hate the government that creates new bigotry, and promotes it. Hate the
governments that repress individual freedoms, that treat people as
expendable pawns in the power games of a few.
Admire the people that grow beyond it.
DMeriman
>Path: lobby!newstf02.news.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
>From: mode...@aol.com (MODEL HAWK)
>Newsgroups: rec.models.scale
>Lines: 44
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>X-Admin: ne...@aol.com
>Date: 28 Sep 2000 12:31:09 GMT
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>
Well, aren't you the perfect little gentleman; how easy you work to forget the
business and the objective of war.
Your defense of the former enemy who managed to escape death in war, painting
him as good guy? Your 'me too' rush to sanctify a guy who's mission it was to
kill our fathers and ultimately subjugate the world -- you do remember who the
Japanese Axis allies were, don't you? And their objectives?
I don't know the Japanese pilot who died, I only know he was a former enemy who
worked to do my country/family/me harm.
...And you make your point by challenging the posters 'military service' --
like you have this little entrance test that we have to pass. A good score
means what we say is therefor valid. Is citizenship good enough for you,
Modelhawk?
Well ... is it, Rambo?!
OK, lets try thison for size:
I never served in the military, I have long hair, I weigh 350 lb., 54 inches
tall, and I'm white, therefore the personification of evil in today's world.
Any of that disqualify me from breathing your air?
(insert pithy response here)
Hmmm.... Did Roosevelt 'serve'? No, he did not! You have then dismissed
anything he might have said/done. Right?
Your shrill condemnation of a poster who reminded us of the cruel facts of that
war is just another reminder of how soft of heart (and head) many of us have
gotten as to the real threat in the world and the need for national and
personal resolve and steadfastness. I invite you to see the world as it is, not
as you would hope it would be.
You, of course, defending a position, make use of the personal attack (yeah, me
too, sometimes) to diminish a posters points. Weak. But, your comments no doubt
endear you to the other softies on this board. So ... you remain comfortable;
your positioned in the Temple pecking-order retained. Belly up to the bar,
ModelHawk.
Weakness will be this countries downfall -- we (guy's like you) are too busy
undermining our 'warrior culture,' something that's been going on since the
mid-60's.
(insert your triumphant war stories and list of military accomplishments here)
Remember this: in the context of the times 'we' were the good guy's, 'they'
were the bad guy's. That Japanese military pilot should have been killed, and
killed early in the conflict. He did us harm. That was his job.
Five, maybe ten years from now we are likely to face the Chinese in armed
conflict -- we won't be up to it, and I put our failure at the feet of those,
like you, who pander rather than take a hard line with this countries enemies
-- past, present, and future.
A little less crying in your beer and a few more push-ups are in order here,
Modelhawk.
David D. Merriman, Jr.
r/c submarines, 'the only way to fly!'
"Barns! Cargrave!... Come back here!!!"
Pacific57
great depression. Your statements as to the goals
of these specific races are FAR too broad and simplistic.
I do not defend them either, but Japan would have wanted to remove
our presence from the Pacific then negotiate a peace. Doubtful they
wanted to take our country. Again, I do not defend this action.
As for Germany, Hitler and his cronies were madmen responding to
hardship. Evil of biblical proportions doomed to fail. They needed allies
and they would have never gotten them. Italy just wasn't a military
power.
-John
Phil Graf
case you didn't know, Sakai considered his best friend to be Joe Foss, the USMC
ace. Foss, unlike you, served in the military. Sakai probably shot down some of
his friends, or at least people he knew. Foss probably shot down Sakai's friends
as well. The fact that these two men not only were on speaking terms but BEST
FRIENDS says something, I think. At least they could figure out that when the war
is over, it's over.
DMeriman wrote:
>
> Well, aren't you the perfect little gentleman; how easy you work to forget the
> business and the objective of war.
>
> Your defense of the former enemy who managed to escape death in war, painting
> him as good guy? Your 'me too' rush to sanctify a guy who's mission it was to
> kill our fathers and ultimately subjugate the world -- you do remember who the
> Japanese Axis allies were, don't you? And their objectives?
Do you forget we were allied with Russia? Do you know how many of their own people
they killed? Give you a hint: more than Hitler. Oops.
He did his job, and did it well. You're pretty much saying that because he served
his country, he deserved to die. If that's true, than the Japanese should believe
that our ancestors also deserved to die, for being American.
>
>
> Five, maybe ten years from now we are likely to face the Chinese in armed
> conflict -- we won't be up to it, and I put our failure at the feet of those,
> like you, who pander rather than take a hard line with this countries enemies
> -- past, present, and future.
I don't know that this will happen, but I do agree that our military is not in the
greatest state of readiness. However, we don't have to hate the rest of the world
to prepare for a conflict. That's silly and bigoted. There's a difference between
loving your country, and hating all who don't live in it. Should the US just take
over the world, then? Is that what you think?
Paul Boyer
THE WAR ENDED IN 1945!
We also don't mind talking to the British whom we fought in 1770s and 1810s.
Wake up.
----------
TomTheAeronut
>and STILL deserve to be treated as such. I see no honor in what they did.
Dear Moron:
FYI: Saburo Sakai and Joe Foss considered each other best friends for the past
30 years.
You are obviously another teenage Generation Y-bother illiterate.
Tom Cleaver
Alexander LaBrecque
without qualification that he has "more respect for anyone who takes up arms
in defense of his country or beliefs than one who does not." This sounds
much like the "my group, right or wrong" mindset that goes unchallenged
today.
Given Rob's statement, it is reasonable to ask if he has more respect for a
Nazi combatant than for a German who resisted, opposed or subverted the
Third Reich. More specifically, there were Germans who did not take up arms
against the Third Reich but otherwise morally opposed it, and who did not
resist the western Allies' invasion of Germany. I respect them, but I do not
respect those who took up arms on behalf of Nazism and its beliefs.
Alex LaBrecque
evang...@earthlink.net
E McCann wrote in message <1DDA5.3262$0D5.4...@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>...
>Read aagain... country or beliefs.
>
>As odd as it may sound, you can defend your country without defending its
>beliefs - many of the Germans who were fighting off the invasion of Europe
>(OK, they invaded outward, then got invaded themselves) weren't nazis. Some
>did resist. Others... well, given how the Germans and Russians treated
each
>other, I'm sure they felt (on both sides) dying fighting was better than
>having "the other guy" on the land.
>
>--
>-Eric
> egmc...@hotmail.com
> http://airmodeller.tripod.com
>"Alexander LaBrecque" <evang...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:71CA5.787$9z5....@newsread03.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>> Rob Gronovius wrote in message
>>
>> >As a soldier, I have more respect for anyone who takes up arms in
defense
>> of
>> >his country or beliefs than one who does not.
John Lawson
> Well, aren't you the perfect little gentleman; how easy you work to forget the
> business and the objective of war.
I hardly think it likely that Bill "forgets the business and the objective of war",
having been through at least two of them himself (Vietnam...Marine Force Recon, way
up in N. Vietnam in the "bush", and on the ground in Kuwait). Three, if you count
being on the streets of Chicago as a beat cop!
> Your defense of the former enemy who managed to escape death in war, painting
> him as good guy? Your 'me too' rush to sanctify a guy who's mission it was to
> kill our fathers and ultimately subjugate the world -- you do remember who the
> Japanese Axis allies were, don't you? And their objectives?
We do remember that. We also helped to rebuild those countries to the point where
they kept the Communists from taking over Europe during the Cold War. Kinda hard
to help people do that, and hate 'em at the same time. Everything seemed to work
out just fine, since those countries helped us keep the wolf away from the door and
send Communism to its well-deserved doom.
> I don't know the Japanese pilot who died, I only know he was a former enemy who
> worked to do my country/family/me harm.
You hit the nail on the head...'former.'
> ...And you make your point by challenging the posters 'military service' --
> like you have this little entrance test that we have to pass. A good score
> means what we say is therefor valid. Is citizenship good enough for you,
> Modelhawk?
I reread his post and I don't see anything in there that challenged the poster's
military service...or lack of...whatever the case may be.
> Well ... is it, Rambo?!
>
> OK, lets try thison for size:
>
> I never served in the military, I have long hair, I weigh 350 lb., 54 inches
> tall, and I'm white, therefore the personification of evil in today's world.
> Any of that disqualify me from breathing your air?
> (insert pithy response here)
Hokay...nope. :-)
> Hmmm.... Did Roosevelt 'serve'? No, he did not! You have then dismissed
> anything he might have said/done. Right?
No, but he did serve in the Dept of the Navy (Ass't Secretary, I think), which did
give him some perspective on war and the military...at least enough to know what he
was talking about most of the time...and put us on the winner's side in WW2...
Your shrill condemnation of a poster who reminded us of the cruel facts of that
> war is just another reminder of how soft of heart (and head) many of us have
> gotten as to the real threat in the world and the need for national and
> personal resolve and steadfastness. I invite you to see the world as it is, not
> as you would hope it would be.
It's possible to do both. Again, knowing Bill's background and experience, he
does. And yes, he does know the real threats (plural) in the world, since he works
in the intelligence field. And if you ask him, he'll probably have a few scathing
comments about the Clinton Administration's failure to adequately fund the armed
forces, and the need to stand up to tyrants and assholes like Saddam and Milosevic.
> You, of course, defending a position, make use of the personal attack (yeah, me
> too, sometimes) to diminish a posters points. Weak. But, your comments no doubt
> endear you to the other softies on this board. So ... you remain comfortable;
> your positioned in the Temple pecking-order retained. Belly up to the bar,
> ModelHawk.
Again...I seriously doubt he's a "softie", given that he's been shot at in
anger...and returned it.
> Weakness will be this countries downfall -- we (guy's like you) are too busy
> undermining our 'warrior culture,' something that's been going on since the
> mid-60's.
He's a personification of "warrior".
> (insert your triumphant war stories and list of military accomplishments here)
Let's just say that he's seen a hell of a lot more combat than the vast majority of
us have, what with 13 months with Force Recon teams being inserted into Communist
territory in N. and S. Vietnam. .Mebbe you didn't know what his background
is...then again, he's not one to readily discuss his combat experiences.
> Remember this: in the context of the times 'we' were the good guy's, 'they'
> were the bad guy's. That Japanese military pilot should have been killed, and
> killed early in the conflict. He did us harm. That was his job.
Very simplistic statement, considering how times have changed. 30, 40, 50 years
later, we should still think the same of our enemies? If so, then what about men
like Joe Foss, Lew Jones (one of the SBD gunners who winged Sakai), Harold Newell
(WW2 US Navy pilot), El Rodenburg (pilot of one of the SBDs Sakai was shooting at),
Robert Weatherup (who shot down Sakai's comrade and fellow ace Shoichi Sugita),
General Robert Scott ("God is my Co-Pilot"), Bob Baseler (P-47 ace), Marshall Beebe
and Eugene Valencia (WW2 aces)...in just a few pages of Henry Sakaida's book
"Winged Samurai" there are numerous pictures of all of these men shaking hands and
socializing with Sakai (damn, I'd have loved to have heard the stories THEY were
telling). Now, all those Americans are warriors...are THEY all "softies" for
embracing him as a friend? Not likely.
> Five, maybe ten years from now we are likely to face the Chinese in armed
> conflict -- we won't be up to it, and I put our failure at the feet of those,
> like you, who pander rather than take a hard line with this countries enemies
> -- past, present, and future.
I hardly think Bill was "pandering".
> A little less crying in your beer and a few more push-ups are in order here,
> Modelhawk.
Um, I think he did more than his share of pushups, between Marine Corps boot camp
and Air Force OCS. I hardly think that doing a few more would prove anything.
Semper Fi to you, Bill!
John
John Lawson
Alexander LaBrecque wrote:
> In this thread about a combatant who served the Axis forces, Rob stated
> without qualification that he has "more respect for anyone who takes up arms
> in defense of his country or beliefs than one who does not." This sounds
> much like the "my group, right or wrong" mindset that goes unchallenged
> today.
Alexander: take a look at this commentary from the son of the real "Great
Santini." It will give you at least a partial answer to your statement, I
think.
http://www.forbes.com/asap/00/1002/112.htm
Semper Fi
John
MODEL HAWK
Davy, Davy, Davy. Don't you ever tire of baring your backside in public?
I know you're hungry but I'm not going to throw you any troll food here. Your
post was purely intended to elicit a response from me to start a flame war but
you're not going to get it.....not from me, anyway.
Obviously, there seems to be some issue you have with me personally. If you
really want to discuss it, and will do it in a sensible, sane and rational
manner, let's do it one-on-one. E-mail me at:
Now I'll see if you really want to discuss an issue or are merely seeking
self-aggrandizment on RMS.
FERACER
One of the main reasons I (normally) dislike chatrooms & posting boards is
because of assholes like you. Fortunately, most modeling sites/boards/rooms
like this one don't have many of you idiots who are living in the past. It is
your type who foster the "hate crime" type of mentality that is so pervasive
among the young in this world today. What is done, is done. What is past, is
past. The world would be so much better of a place if you mental pigmies would
work as hard at moving ahead with your life as you do in clinging to the past.
To the other moron who doesn't buy anything from Germany or Japan (or
wherever): not only are you in the same boat as the above imbeciles, you're
most likely sure not living with very many nice things available from the
world.
Geeze, what a pack of idiots....
Royabulgaf
stayed at the hotel. Kim M
steve...@my-deja.com
"Paul Boyer" <pbo...@finescale.com> wrote:
> Hey, Alan, this just in:
>
> THE WAR ENDED IN 1945!
>
> We also don't mind talking to the British whom we fought in 1770s and
1810s.
>
-just the baseball team. (Everybody does)
Go Braves!
pane...@home.com
If Foss can forgive, who are we to carry a grudge?
Maiesm72
Korea, Viet Nam, Desert Storm, the Israeli War of Independence as friends.
One thing that most, but not all, share is a feeling of brotherhood with at
least some of their past adversaries. Politics, old hatreds and even genocide
tend to fade within a lifetime. I don't feel that it is my place to judge how
these men and women should feel toward their old enemies.
I do, however, hold a lot more respect in this matter for these folks than I do
for my fellow historians and modelers. The bullets and shells were coming in
their direction. In my opinion it is their decision to make.
Last year I introduced a good friend of mine to a WWII German pilot at an air
show. My friend was introduced as "Another Messerschmitt pilot". When the
German asked my friend's unit he clearly stated "Mahal, Israeli Air Force,
1947-48".
The German's initial response was to recoil, followed by a long period of
uncomfortable silence. My friend walked away, but an hour later he was back,
talking relative merits of the Me 109G and the Avia S-199 (the S-199's only
merit was that it was there, it was a true pig).
These two will never be friends, but as pilots in combat they reached an
understanding after fifty years. I have no idea what that understanding is. It
is between them.
Tom
Maiesm72
The nice thing about packs of idiots is that there is always room for one more.
Calling people who you disagree with "idiots", "mental pigmies (sic)",
"morons", "imbeciles" and "assholes" in what appears to be your first post on
RMS does little to make the world "...so much better of a place..." as you
state.
I happen to agree with you to some extent. However, as long as there are still
Nazi scum here and elsewhere, as long as Japanese schoolchildren are taught
that Japan never did anything bad to China and the U.S. was the sole cause of
Japan's horrible treatment in WWII people need to be reminded that these events
took place.
Your hypervolic nonsense only provides your viewpoint with a very poor
spokesman.
If you dislike chatrooms and posting boards so much you may wish to try another
pastime. Try building a model or two. Does not leave much time for even
newsgroups except when the pain is drying.
Tom
DMeriman
>If Foss can forgive, who are we to carry a grudge?
>
Is that a question?
OK, here's an answer:
We are individuals -- each with our own brain and (some) with the willingness
to use it.
You either subscribe to the popular 'groupthink' -- the popular and safe PC
answer -- or you come up with your own, honest, answers.
That's who 'we' are.
Rob Gronovius
>-just the baseball team. (Everybody does)
>
>Go Braves!
ain't that Hanoi Jane's team? ;-)
MODEL HAWK
issue you have with me one-on-one but you have not replied. That leads to the
conclusion you are more interested in pontification than addressing a real
issue like a man. E-mail is as easy as typing a post to RMS, though not as
aggrandizing.
If you'd rather meet in person to discuss whatever issue you have with me
personally, I'll meet you halfway (literally). I'll drive down to Richmond
from DC if you'll drive up from VA Beach. We can meet at the Marine Raider
Museum there and work through whatever problem you have with me.
At any rate, this will be my last response to you on RMS....on this or any
other topic.
Cheers........Bill
Phil Graf
pane...@home.com
May God give you peace.
DMeriman
Calling on a God, and acting like your his/her/its agent, is the final arrow
pulled from the quiver of one who is clean out of cogent argument.
Though, I suppose that your 'God' invocation is one step better than running to
the e-mail forum to continue a failed argument. I'll give you a point for
sticking to the forum in which the conflict originated.
DMeriman
>whatever
>issue you have with me one-on-one but you have not replied. That leads to
>the
>conclusion you are more interested in pontification than addressing a real
>issue like a man. E-mail is as easy as typing a post to RMS, though not as
>aggrandizing.
>
>If you'd rather meet in person to discuss whatever issue you have with me
>personally, I'll meet you halfway (literally). I'll drive down to Richmond
>from DC if you'll drive up from VA Beach. We can meet at the Marine Raider
>Museum there and work through whatever problem you have with me.
>
>At any rate, this will be my last response to you on RMS....on this or any
>other topic.
>
>Cheers........Bill
>
'change of venue' you make.
Deal with it here, or just sit and stew as you await my reply on your e-mail
screen.
You have my address. Use it. Any time.
Francis X. Kranick, Jr.
> Address me in the same forum you selected initially - I will not dance to any
> 'change of venue' you make.
Hmmm... Didn't Merriman select this forum?
> Deal with it here, or just sit and stew as you await my reply on your e-mail
> screen.
Merriman's a coward when pressed on a subject. We won't see another post
from him for a month and that one will still have nothing to do with modeling -
or even scratchbuilding...
> You have my address. Use it. Any time.
You'd better do as Merriman says, Bill. Offline, you'll only receive
comments like: "Blow me." or the ever-popular "Eat me.", each excellent
responses to logical requests such as yours. I speak from experience, Bill.
It seems Merriman's propensity for "pithy remarks" is greatly diminished when
only one person is the recipient. His intellect gets lost in truly meaningful
discourse - though he'd have you think otherwise. That is to say, aside from his
bombast, he has nothing to offer to this newsgroup and bombast is one thing we
dearly do not need on RMS.
Take good care.
--
Frank
IPMS/USA 20352
"Watch it - I say - watch it fizz!"
- Foghorn Leghorn
*****************************
Francis X. Kranick, Jr.
CAD Drafter/CAFM Administrator
University of Scranton
Scranton, PA USA
kran...@uofs.edu (work)
fran...@usnetway.com (home)
(570) 941-7898 - voice
(570) 941-6220 - facsimile
Captain Haddock
I agree with what you say(!) I'd just like to add (a correction/addendum?)
something to what you've said. - I'd just like to remark that not everyone
who fought in the German armed forces during WW2 "took up arms on behalf of
Nazism and its beliefs". (I don't think that you were implying that this
applied to everyone who fought in the German armed forces- I may have
misinterpreted you). Actually, I think it's highly unlikely that the
majority of the combatants on German "side" did do this, at least not
concously. (I suppose that one could say that by fighting at all they were
supporting the Nazis regime at least on a subconscious level - they were
fighting for Germany after all!) Germany, like most other countries, did
have conscription and as a result, many people didn't have much of a choice
whether they joined the armed forces or not or not. I'd also observe that
people did fight in the German armed forces who did in fact oppose Nazism
but whom either through lack of choice (conscription again) or because they
felt, perhaps, a sense of duty (to Germany as a whole) found themselves
fighting.
I emphasise that I agree with you rather than Rob when he says that he has
"more respect for anyone who takes up arms for his country or beliefs."
(Sorry Rob!). That's a bit too nationalistic/simple for my liking. Frankly,
I can't see myself taking up arms for a country. I might for a concept or
ideal perhaps; it's difficult for me to say. There's also an interesting
question there about what "defense of..country" means? Only if your country
is attacked? Or what? The bit about beliefs is a bit tricky too. Whose/what
beliefs? As an extreme example - Would Rob's statement apply to someone who
was racists and said that we should all take up arms and kill anyone who was
"white"?
My own personal view (and again I don't want annoy anyone!) is that I think
I admire pacifists quite a lot. I think that It can take a lot of courage to
stand up disagree with (presumably) the majority. Muhammad Ali and Vietnam
anyone?
*Sound of spanner being thrown into the works*
Interesting! Not really on topic any more (my fault!) but interesting.
Philosophy anyone :)
Cheers,
Dave
Alexander LaBrecque <evang...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ELPA5.176$8B1....@newsread03.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> In this thread about a combatant who served the Axis forces, Rob stated
> without qualification that he has "more respect for anyone who takes up
arms
> in defense of his country or beliefs than one who does not." This sounds
> much like the "my group, right or wrong" mindset that goes unchallenged
> today.
>
> Given Rob's statement, it is reasonable to ask if he has more respect for
> >> >As a soldier, I have more respect for anyone who takes up arms in
> defense
> >> of
> >> >his country or beliefs than one who does not.
> >> >Rob Gronovius
> >> >Major, U.S. Army
> >> >>
>
>
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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Frank Henriquez
royab...@aol.com (Royabulgaf) wrote:
>This whole thread reminds me of the Fawlty Towers episode when the German
>group stayed at the hotel.
And I keep thinking of that great Los Angeles Sage and Humanitarian,
Rodney King who once spake thusly:
"Kant - we all get a lawn?"
Don't know what it means,but it sounds like good advice.
Frank
--
Frank Henriquez Programmer/Analyst Jules Stein Eye Institute, UCLA
fr...@ucla.edu http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~frank/index.htm
cco...@us.hsanet.net
>>
>>If Foss can forgive, who are we to carry a grudge?
>>
>
>Is that a question?
>
>OK, here's an answer:
>
>snip<
Yes, Dave, it was aquestion. It was a "rhetorical question". I'll save
you the time of looking it up. "A question posed for rhetorical
effect, emphasis, etc. and not meant to be answered. Its context
supplies its own answer by suggestion and admits of no others."
Do you get it?
By the way, the previuos line was also a rhetorical question.
Regards,
Chuck C.
MFE
John Lawson
Cool Jules
ect, but i just find it hard to forgive a race who got a great amount of
pleasure from torturing and raping men and woman, yet 50 years on it still
goes on in the world.
I guess if my grandparents can get on with life, esp my granddad who saw how
his dad came back then its only fair then i should give it a try......
Railplane wrote in message <39D3756B...@yahoo.com>...
>Basically people to be 84 because they are mature enough to understand
>something about being "the enemy" ... Only the very very very young can
>had such silly notions about the grandeur of killing. If after 50 years
>you still have the urge to kill a person who is basically a stranger
>hmmm ... well you probably won't live that long anyway if you did!
>:o))))
>
>Lay off those first person shooter games for bit is my advice
>
>Cool Jules wrote:
>>
>> My great grandfather was tortuerd by the Germans in WW1, he was at Somme,
i
>> heard the horrors that happend, wars war, but toture etc is not war, some
of
>> the mass crimes were wrong, war without killing would just be a punch up.
>>
>> I have always resented Germans and Japenese, cos of this, esp older ones,
>> but last year when i was going thru a very bad patch, the best advice i
got
>> was from a German, a old man called Fritz, he spoke sense and the truth,
>> this made me think.....
>>
>> I could never understand how 2 oposing soilders of WW2 could meet and
shake
>> hands 50+ years later without teh urge to kill each other.
>>
>> Most of my closest friends are Jewish, i heard what there parents went
>> through years ago, that wasnt human, and if Germans could do that THEN
>> surley there capable of doing it today.
>>
>> I lot of hatred in this country now is towards Somali refugees, i too
dont
>> like them around here but i read they helped the brits in the last war.
>>
>> I admit i refuse to buy German and french products if i can, i check all
>> lables in supermarkets etc. Nevea moisteriser was made in Germany so i
took
>> it back, i buy british where i can, but sometimes i have to buy French/
>> German stuff, same as Jap stuff, but where i can i buy british, i guess
this
>> goes back to the feelings about the war, apart from the France thing, but
>> then i REFUSE to buy anything French anyway...apart from a Heller kit cos
i
>> had no choice!!
>>
>> My grandparents say to me i should learn to get on with the Germans i
meet,
>> but why should i cos maybe the one i meet next, his grandfather toterd my
>> great grandfather etc.
>>
>> Alan Tart wrote in message <39D27B6E...@tsh.com>...
>> >>
>> >> I suppose you probably feel the same way about Adolf Galland and Eric
>> >> Hartmann.
>> >
>> >It would of been my pleasure and honor to shoot the Jap and both these
>> >Germans in the head as the mother of the Americans they killed
>> >watched........exactly the same thing the Japs and Germans would of done
to
>> >American pilots it they won the war.
>> >
>> >I really don`t understand how any American could shake these aces hands
or
>> >sit in the same room with them and not have the overwelming urge to kill
>> >them.
>> >
>> >I met Joe Foss and was honered , Adolf ,Hartman and Sakai were the enemy
>> >and STILL deserve to be treated as such. I see no honor in what they
did.
>> >
>> > Alan
>> >
>> >>
>> >
Cool Jules
to eat and sleep there?(or would the Jew feel safe and expect to wake up in
the morning?)
Non of my Jewish freinds gave a toss that i wasnt Jewish, i was welcome in
there homes, they didnt mind blacks either, if Germans and Japs today can
live along Blacks and Jews, then my views are wrong and im the one causing
the trouble.....but im not am i?
A ENGLISHMAN was thrown out of his home, cos he had a Union flag raised, and
his German neighbour didnt like it.......if he didnt like it he should have
gone back home!
I have been to Germany, and lived in Africa and Spain, and a few other
places, so have seen race hatred at face value, and in Germany they stil
thought they were the master race..........
If a modern day Jap or German young person, can HONESTLY say then they dont
feel the way there grandparents did, then its time to live and let live, but
can they? Saburo Sakai's family couldnt i dont think.
E McCann wrote in message ...
>
>
>> Most of my closest friends are Jewish, i heard what there parents went
>> through years ago, that wasnt human, and if Germans could do that THEN
>> surley there capable of doing it today
>
>Hatred, bigotry, racism, and stupidity are not traits of any one
>nationality, race, religion, or gender. Sure, the Germans are capable of
>hating Jews today. So are Californians, Arabs, Minnesotans, Canadians,
>blacks, hispanics, caucasians, and orientals.
>
>Using events of the past to hate somebody due to race or nationality today
>is rediculous, and holds up the process of peace. Don't believe me? Look
>at the reasons for the wars in the Balkans, the middle east, or Northern
>Ireland. The most "recent" of them, N. Ireland, has hatred going back to
>the events of Cromwell's time, several hundred years ago. The middle east
>and the balkans go back to ancient times. And anyone who thinks sending in
>some troops with little blue hats, or dropping bombs on some positions
>today, will stop that hatred, is in for a rude awakening. It may be
>repressed for a while... but it'll still be there.
>
>Hate the government that creates new bigotry, and promotes it. Hate the
>governments that repress individual freedoms, that treat people as
>expendable pawns in the power games of a few.
>
>Admire the people that grow beyond it.
Cool Jules
Come back when your mature enough to have a adult discussion without using
playground talk.........
You may have a valid point, but at least try and be grown up about it!
FERACER wrote in message <20000928212246...@ng-cn1.aol.com>...
Cool Jules
but i cannot say the opposite from what i feel.
I live in a rough poor area, with lots of 'Paki bashing' something i dont
agree with, but the torture what the Japs and Germans did cannot be
ingnored, but i find it hard to belive a old German who 50 years ago gassed
some Jews, would not want to do the same now if he got the chance.......and
he would have told his son how much he loved killing, and his son etc
etc.........
Back to the origonal point of the dead 84 year Jap, he was lucky to come out
of alive and live to a old age, so hes dead.....big deal, lots of RAF, Brit
OAP guys die everyday, Im a ENGLISHMAN so i respect and honour the Losses of
our guys.....you Yanks do the same with your old guys, and i guess modern
Japs and Germans do the same, why i dont know, but i never will.
I pay respect to any OAP of the Allies who dies, even if hell freezes over i
aint paying any respect to the guys on the other side!!
If your black, fat, etc then your welcome in my house and to stay for
dinner, if your grandfather was in the SS etc then not a chance in hell! If
they needed my help to live after a accident, then thats differant, not even
i with my beliefs think i could walk past one injured and in distress
PS
I aint got no food, so you will have to bring your own!! ;-)
Maiesm72 wrote in message <20000929041816...@ng-co1.aol.com>...
Penmod
>From: mode...@aol.com (MODEL HAWK)
>Date: 9/28/00 8:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>>DMeriman wrote: A trolling comment (which I snipped out)
>
>Davy, Davy, Davy. Don't you ever tire of baring your backside in public?
Backside?? How do you know which end is which on him? ;c)
>I know you're hungry but I'm not going to throw you any troll food here.
>Your post was purely intended to elicit a response from me to start a flame
war
>but
>you're not going to get it.....not from me, anyway.
>Obviously, there seems to be some issue you have with me personally. If you
>really want to discuss it, and will do it
>in a sensible, sane and rational
>manner, let's do it one-on-one.
Merriman?? Sensible, sane, and rational?? Surely you jest...not when the little
barnyard gigolo can hide behind his keyboard and hurl insults at REAL model
builders.
His jealousy of the readers of this newsgroup is rather apparent, don't you
think?
MRLMMD:
Marty Oberman, Jr.
(Pen...@aol.com)
"There's someone in my head, but it's not me."
Pink Floyd 1973
Penmod
>From: dmer...@aol.com (DMeriman)
>Date: 9/29/00 12:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>>I haven't heard from you via e-mail yet, David. I offered to discuss
>>whatever
>>issue you have with me one-on-one but you have not replied. That leads to
>>the
>>conclusion you are more interested in pontification than addressing a real
>>issue like a man. E-mail is as easy as typing a post to RMS, though not as
>>aggrandizing.
>>
>Address me in the same forum you selected initially - I will not dance to any
>'change of venue' you make.
Translation: I'm scared shitless to come out from behind my screen and face you
like a man...you may see the real me, and feel pity for the sad, lonely,
pathetic little person I really am.
>Deal with it here, or just sit and stew as you await my reply on your e-mail
>screen.
>
>You have my address. Use it. Any time.
Translation: I fancy myself as the most omnipotent entity in this newsgroup,
although reality dictates quite the opposite. Leaving the safety of my computer
screen will expose me for the sham that the rest of you already believe I am.
Poor Meriman...he never stops trying, does he?
Penmod
>Date: 9/29/00 12:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>>I feel sorry for you and people like you.
>>May God give you peace.
>Calling on a God, and acting like your his/her/its agent, is the final arrow
>pulled from the quiver of one who is clean out of cogent argument.
How would you know, atheist? You have no belief in a supreme being, so your
argument is null and void...much like everything else you say.
>Though, I suppose that your 'God' invocation is one step better than running
>to
>the e-mail forum to continue a failed argument. I'll give you a point for
>sticking to the forum in which the conflict originated.
>
Unless, like Meriman, you HAVE no faith...in which the only other recourse is
running to the e-mail forum.
Sean
in WW2, as in the Bataan Death March and other barbaric deeds. as for Germans,
well, i know a number of them, and all seem incredibly snobby, and look down at
American customs. also 2 of them stopped talking to me when they found out i
was Jewish.
Sean Neilan
Rama Lama Noch-Nok
of the glorious Temple Shananana
Fly on!
The voices in my head tell me to build things.
Alexander LaBrecque
tactic or strategy for social change (as Gandhi and Martin Luther King
demonstrated), but in other contexts pacifism can be immoral, allowing
aggression and evil to prevail without due opposition.
I admire the extraordinary courage of German and Japanese citizens and
servicemen who sought to subvert their nations' aggression in WWII;
likewise, subversive subjects of the USSR under Stalin and during the Cold
War. At the same time I recognize how easy it would be for the majority to
go along with their government, without being ideologically committed. In
reference to this thread: Saburo Sakai is worthy of praise for his post-war
criticism of his country, but during the war he was indeed an enemy, however
great a warrior.
The U.S. involvement in Vietnam is an altogether different situation, as
America is not a totalitarian state nor was it waging a war of aggression.
At best the U.S. military action in Vietnam was a justifiable effort to halt
the spread of Communist aggression; at worst it was a bungled intervention
that McNamara and LBJ had determined the US must not win, but at the expense
of 50,000 Americans' lives. I have no respect for the Marxist-incited
antiwar protests which served only to prolong the war and the suffering of
our POWs, and to demoralize our troops in a justified but mismanaged war
effort.
Alex LaBrecque
evang...@earthlink.net
Captain Haddock wrote in message <39d4d...@goliath2.newsfeeds.com>...
>Cheers,
>
>Dave
E McCann
They'd do even more good if you'd ignore the trolls instead of copying what
they say and replying to it on the NG.
Anabela & Claus Gustafsen
eficcient warrier is dead, and pity those who can't be human enough to honer a dead
warrior be he friend or foe - besides the time he was an enemy is long past.
Claus
Penmod skriver:
--
Anabela & Claus Gustafsen
Strandby, Denmark
Besøg vores hjemmeside på adresserne:
Visit our pages at these adresses:
fly modelbygning på http://home5.inet.tele.dk/anabela/Claus
aircraft modeling at http://home5.inet.tele.dk/anabela/Claus/english
Alt indenfor modelbygning på http://home13.inet.tele.dk/aage
All kinds of modeling at http://home13.inet.tele.dk/aage/English/indexuk
Captain Haddock
<snipped>
> The U.S. involvement in Vietnam is an altogether different situation, as
> America is not a totalitarian state nor was it waging a war of aggression.
> At best the U.S. military action in Vietnam was a justifiable effort to
halt
> the spread of Communist aggression; at worst it was a bungled intervention
> that McNamara and LBJ had determined the US must not win, but at the
expense
> of 50,000 Americans' lives. I have no respect for the Marxist-incited
> antiwar protests which served only to prolong the war and the suffering of
> our POWs, and to demoralize our troops in a justified but mismanaged war
> effort.
>
> Alex LaBrecque
Hi Alexander,
Well, like most things I suppose it comes down to point of view really.
I won't comment any further other than to say that I'm not sure I totally
agree with you. I have a lot of sympathy with the fmailies of all the US
ciitizens who were killed (or injured) in the conflict. I have just as much
sympthy for the hundreds of thousands of innocent people who were killed and
injured by both sides in SE Asia during the conflict. Personally I don't
view it as a justified war, I consider it to have been a result of the US
Government's (then) obession with Communism. An obsession that unfortunately
led successive governments to bankroll any number of regimes just as bad as
the Communist ones they were trying to prevent.
Anyway, all that's irrelevant to this thread (not too mention the
newsgroup!) I suspect so sorry for steering it away (into dangerous
waters?) - ah the cut and thrust of debate :)
Cheers,
Dave
DMeriman
>view it as a justified war, I consider it to have been a result of the US
>Government's (then) obession with Communism. An obsession that unfortunately
>led successive governments to bankroll any number of regimes just as bad as
>the Communist ones they were trying to prevent.
>
The Soviet empire (for the moment) is dead!
Obsession can be a good thing: It got us to the moon, won two world-wars, etc.
Obsessive model building is also a good thing. Or is that too far off topic
here?
Captain Haddock
DMeriman <dmer...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000930081512...@ng-bh1.aol.com...
<snipped for brevity>
> Obsessive model building is also a good thing. Or is that too far off
topic
> here?
Unless you start stealing to buy more kits ;)
Sounds on topic to me!
> David D. Merriman, Jr.
Cheers,
> r/c submarines, 'the only way to fly!'
>
> "Barns! Cargrave!... Come back here!!!"
(reminds me of the old Hamlet cigar advert where the smoker was sitting
beside a lake, was annoyed by some people using r/c boats and called up a
r/c sub from the depths of the lake to sink em :) )
cco...@us.hsanet.net
>An obsession that we carried through to accomplishment, you might add...
>
>The Soviet empire (for the moment) is dead!
>
Yes. They went bankrupt before we did.
>Obsession can be a good thing: It got us to the moon, won two world-wars, etc.
>
Dedication and commitment are good things. Obsession usually leads to
fanaticism and fanatics tend to commit irrational acts justified by
delusions.
>Obsessive model building is also a good thing. Or is that too far off topic
>here?
>
I'm begining to wonder...
Regards,
Chuck C.
MFE
Peter Nebelung
<julia...@jhales.swinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>I try to pride myself that i am basicly a decent person, live and let live
>ect, but i just find it hard to forgive a race who got a great amount of
>pleasure from torturing and raping men and woman, yet 50 years on it still
>goes on in the world.
>
Jules;
I have to congratulate you on how well you can hold an entire race and
multiple generations (previous response to another post) to account
for actions of some.
I suppose if you met my father on the street and found out he was
German, you would hate him too? All he did was serve in the Uboat
service and Marine infantry, get shot up twice and grabbed by the
Russians at the end of the war. He had bugger all to do with KZs, gas
chambers or Malmedy. So up yours in spades.
I honor all who fight, for what ever reasons. I do not however honor
those who committed crimes during the fight. Combat is not the same as
murdering people. Those who do so are (if caught) guilty of war crimes
and punished. As it should be.
I haven't yet seen anyone hit the nail on the head. People who go to
fight in wars do so for many reasons. All of which are planted in them
by their families, school teachers and politicians. Hate is passed
from generation to generation. If you want to hate someone or a group
of people, start looking in the right direction.
The fellow who picks up the rifle or climbs into the cockpit does so
because of what he believes in, be that political, racial or anything
else. Most people hate doing it, some few thrive on it. In the end,
surviving it may give them a different viewpoint, or maybe it won't.
That is their business and certainly not mine. And I will not condemn
an entire nation or race for the acts of a few.
Peter
IskonNews
In article <rY4A5.3769$4j7.7...@ratbert.tds.net>,
patrick....@teldta.com (Patrick Shanahan) wrote:
> Just read that Japanes WW2 air ace Saburo Sakai (64 victories) passed
away of
> a heart attack in Japan on Friday, whilst attending a dinner with US
military
> officers at Atsugi Base. He was 84.
>
> http://www.foxnews.com/world/092600/japan_pilot.sml
For all of you, whose brains still thrive on hate and whose hearts are still
hate-driven, I see that you have only SUPERFICIALLY and PRAGMATICALLY passed
over the facts underlined above!!!
Just to underline the entire issue, before FINALLY returning to the topic of
this news-group - WHICH IS SCALE MODELLING FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO SEEMED TO
HAVE FORGOTTEN - what do you think is worse? (A note of instruction - give
the answers SILENTLY TO yourselves and IN yourselves!)
IMHO:
Is it physical fighting, such as a war just to give a single example, or is
it conquering the world by the mentality of a single nation? Examples I
should not mention ...
... No, I do not like - I only said "not like" and not "hate" - the
"American way", because I have my own.
By the way ... Why do you think that certain governments go into war with
certain other ruling governments? Is it because they REALLY care about the
people under certain regimes, or is it because they have certain interests,
such as economic.
A brief example. In Croatia, a war was raging for 6 years (Milosevic has
been prompting it by his plans for "the Great Serbia") and the American
government did nothing because it had no interest in it, whatsoever. In
Croatia there is neither oil, nor mines of any kind, it has no significant
economic power that could influence the world stage. (Here, I primarily
think of WTO.) The USA government spoke out only when another war broke
out - the one in Bosnia. And this was not because it had interest in Bosnia
itself, but because STATISTICS have come out on the number of KILLED, RAPED,
MUTILATED, MISSING and EXILED individuals. Finally, after the appearance of
STATISTIC DATA, the USA government said "That's enough!" and started to
press Milosevic and the Serbian government. This was so, because the USA
government could not allow itself to loose its reputation as the world-stage
leading role in "human rights" and nothing else!!!
... Fear from the communist invasion was just a good excuse to go into war
with certain countries, to create fantastically budgeted accounts for arms
(their development and use). And fantastically enough, the amount of money
put into the arms budget in the USA could feed all the starved in Africa,
South-East Asia and more. But naturally, it has no interest in doing that
because of all of the above mentioned reasons! Just to be precise -
Clinton's administration had a 30 billion US$ higher defence budget in 1995
than what Nixon's admin. had 20 years earlier in the midst of the Cold War.
The USA govern. plans to leave 100 000 soldiers in WESTERN EUROPE FOR
DEFENCE PURPOSES. WHO SHOULD IT BE DEFENDED FROM??? (For all of you who do
the "American way", read Carl Sagan's "Billions and Billions", ISBN
953-203-008-5, Copyright 1997 by The Estate of Carl Sagan, chapters 16-18.)
THE ABOVE IS UNFORTUNATELY (!?) THE "HERE AND NOW" OF THE WORLD, AND
CERTAINLY DID NOT TAKE PLACE 55 YEARS AGO WHEN SOME ETHICS WAS STILL PRESENT
IN HUMANS (!!!).
I'll conclude by the following lyrics from "Cabaret" (Lisa Minelli):
MONEY MAKES THE WORLD GO ROUND, THE WORLD GO ROUND, ...
P.S. I do apologise to all because of my longish mail and to all who
believe that it does not belong here (I share their opinion), but because of
this very opinion of mine, my consciousness could not leave me alone had I
not done it!!!
Honour and remembrance to all who died, whenever and wherever. Let them
REST IN PEACE!!!
DMeriman
>I'll conclude by the following lyrics from "Cabaret" (Lisa Minelli):
>
>MONEY MAKES THE WORLD GO ROUND, THE WORLD GO ROUND, ...
>
So ... you substantiate an argument by quoting Lisa Minelli!!???? Why not Jane
Fonda?
David D. Merriman, Jr.
Royabulgaf
the beast. Kim M
Royabulgaf
>here?
>
>
Jeez, Dave, why are you bringing modeling of all things into RMS? Kim M
(for those of you from Indiana, I am being ironic)
DMeriman
That or start another Paolo rant. Your call.
Alexander LaBrecque
and newsgroup. In my response I'll try to reorient it to modelling.
Were it not for the US government's "obsession" (your term) with stopping
Communism, the people of Eastern Europe formerly under the tyranny of the
Soviet bloc would not know the personal freedom and the benefits of free
enterprise that they enjoy today.
Nor would we in the West be building injection kits from Czechoslovakia and
the Ukraine! :-)
Alex LaBrecque
evang...@earthlink.net
Captain Haddock wrote in message >
>Hi Alexander,
>
>Well, like most things I suppose it comes down to point of view really.
>
>I won't comment any further other than to say that I'm not sure I totally
>agree with you. I have a lot of sympathy with the fmailies of all the US
>ciitizens who were killed (or injured) in the conflict. I have just as much
>sympthy for the hundreds of thousands of innocent people who were killed
and
>injured by both sides in SE Asia during the conflict. Personally I don't
>view it as a justified war, I consider it to have been a result of the US
>Government's (then) obession with Communism. An obsession that
unfortunately
>led successive governments to bankroll any number of regimes just as bad as
>the Communist ones they were trying to prevent.
>
Penmod
>From: dmer...@aol.com (DMeriman)
>Date: 9/30/00 12:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>>I'll conclude by the following lyrics from "Cabaret" (Lisa Minelli):
>>
>>MONEY MAKES THE WORLD GO ROUND, THE WORLD GO ROUND, ...
>So ... you substantiate an argument by quoting Lisa Minelli!!???? Why not
>Jane
>
>Fonda?
>
>David D. Merriman, Jr.
Jeez, Meriman...is that the ONLY part of his argument you understood? Go back
to yer barnyard...these conversations are WAY over your head...
Tom Cervo
exactly in a position to decide who and what he'd fight.
I'm sure that a lot of people fighting on the Allied side in WW2 had a certain
moral qualm knowing that they were allied to the Russians in their war against
the Finns.
Cool Jules
Sean wrote in message <20000929220855...@ng-cg1.aol.com>...
>in Japan, they are just starting to teach students what Japanese soldiers
did
>in WW2, as in the Bataan Death March and other barbaric deeds. as for
Germans,
>well, i know a number of them, and all seem incredibly snobby, and look
down at
>American customs. also 2 of them stopped talking to me when they found out
i
>was Jewish.
>
>
I find it hard to belive that the Japs are only starting to teach this now,
many years too late.
You mentioned 2 Germans stopped talking to you........it looks like nothing
has changed in 50 years......
Cool Jules
Peter Nebelung wrote in message ...
>On Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:56:42 +0100, "Cool Jules"
><julia...@jhales.swinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>I try to pride myself that i am basicly a decent person, live and let live
>>ect, but i just find it hard to forgive a race who got a great amount of
>>pleasure from torturing and raping men and woman, yet 50 years on it still
>>goes on in the world.
>>
>
>Jules;
>I have to congratulate you on how well you can hold an entire race and
>multiple generations (previous response to another post) to account
>for actions of some.
>
a JEW today in the NG......WHY???????? that Jew(person....just like me) is
more than welcome to eat in my house, or a black guy....i didnt have the
intention of gassing them!!!!!!
>I suppose if you met my father on the street and found out he was
>German, you would hate him too?
Not hate...just have no feelings or wish to talk to him, if he was having
aheart attack i wouldnt walk by tho, i wouldnt want to be thanked
either......
All he did was serve in the Uboat
>service and Marine infantry, get shot up twice and grabbed by the
>Russians at the end of the war. He had bugger all to do with KZs, gas
>chambers or Malmedy. So up yours in spades.
>
Noticed how i said many? and not all, so he rode in a Uboat, and he got
shot......thats war, like i said that Skai was a pilot, so hes died now, no
one outisde his own nation should honor him or praise him.
>I honor all who fight, for what ever reasons. I do not however honor
>those who committed crimes during the fight. Combat is not the same as
>murdering people. Those who do so are (if caught) guilty of war crimes
>and punished. As it should be.
>
So you as a German agree that those crimes were wrong against the Jews?
I never said combat was the same as murding, gassing etc. i said a war
without kiling is just a punch up, lining up men women and children against
a wall, shooting them, or gassing them isnt humane......and you thought you
were the Master race?
It was also the 'average' German soilder who shot innocent people, took away
the children, raped the woman in villages......etc etc
>I haven't yet seen anyone hit the nail on the head. People who go to
>fight in wars do so for many reasons. All of which are planted in them
>by their families, school teachers and politicians. Hate is passed
>from generation to generation.
yes, i would have carried my family tradition of being in the armed forces
if i wasnt born with a dislocated hip, and i would have fought and killed,
but for the right reason, not cos someone was black or a Jew!
If you want to hate someone or a group
>of people, start looking in the right direction.
>
I do........
>The fellow who picks up the rifle or climbs into the cockpit does so
>because of what he believes in, be that political, racial or anything
>else. Most people hate doing it, some few thrive on it. In the end,
>surviving it may give them a different viewpoint, or maybe it won't.
>That is their business and certainly not mine. And I will not condemn
>an entire nation or race for the acts of a few.
acts of few? it was a damn site more than a few that did the evil of the
natzis etc
Would you have a black or a Jew in your house? i still see today many
Germans who wont.......
>Peter
>
>
>
steve...@my-deja.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
DMeriman
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
>
... click!
MltryHstrn
In reference to the statement posed about Japan's current history curriculum>I
find it hard to belive that the Japs are only starting to teach this now,
nine year long war in China was an "incident" in which Japanese forces faced
off against bandits. In addition, no mention is made in the current national
history of Pearl harbor, the Bataan Death March, or the Bridge on the Kwai - or
for that matter of the series of defeats which started at Guadalcanal and
Midway. In fact, several long paragraphs describe the fire bombing of Tokyo and
the A-bombing of Hiroshima but nothing is mentioned of Nanking or Manila. When
we allow governments to write history all we get is a real life visit to 1984
with Truespeak originating at the Minitrue.
Perhaps it is the propensity of the western democracies to be sensitive
to this - although history is managed to a lesser extent in order to meet
demands of current PC belief. IMHO countries will only stop waging "cruel war"
when students are taught what the real results of man's inhumanity can
be.Schools can be real instruments for positive change or they can be used to
prolong the sins of the past. Society's choice really....
Mltry Hstrn
Cool Jules
steve...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8r6c0d$u4q$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...