Curtiss Hawk 75 - Armee de l'Air colours
Hishyeness
I am putting together the old Revell kit of the Curtiss Hawk 75 in
French colours and was wondering if anyone had any ideas about the
interior cockpit colour?
I have seen photo's of a P-36 walkaround of an Armee de l'Air version
with a greenish interior, but the Dewoitine 520 and MS 406 I have (both
from Hasegawa) call for a light grey.
If it makes any difference, the decals I have bought (aftermarket from
MPD) are for a 1940 Hawk 75 C.1
Brian Burr Chin
very dark blue. Wheel wells and interior flaps would be Chamois, a color
like goat skin.
Flying Frog
French Hawks interior had exactly the same colors than the American
Hawks...
--
Chris
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William H. Shuey
>
> French Hawks interior had exactly the same colors than the American
> Hawks...
>
FWIW That jives with what I have been told by old Glenn L. Martin
hands. The Martin Marylands were delivered unpainted and were to be
painted in France. The exteriors were bare metal and the interiors were
an anti-corrosive clear lacquer or aluminum lacquer like the U.S. Navy
used on the exterior of metal fuselages in the pre-war "yellow wings"
finishes. Curtiss Hawks were specified the same.
Only exception I have found was the Curtiss bi-plane divebombers which
only got as far as Martinique and were staked out in the open to rot.
They were supposedly camouflaged but in what colors?? Maybe Chris knows.
Bill Shuey
Flying Frog
Hi Bill, I wrote from my reminding of an old article in Replic. I
remember one or two photo of a real Hawk with an interior light
interior green, not really a zinc chromate, but not far...
But these pictures were maybe from a specific model...
William H. Shuey
>
> > Bill Shuey
>
> Hi Bill, I wrote from my reminding of an old article in Replic. I
> remember one or two photo of a real Hawk with an interior light
> interior green, not really a zinc chromate, but not far...
>
> But these pictures were maybe from a specific model...
>
One must be careful where the Hawks were concerned, was the picture of
the interior of a French Hawk 75 or a U.S. P-36??. The U.S. Army Hawks
were probably interior green, and then there were the Dutch and Chinese
Hawks. When looking at a picture you need to know who the aircraft was
built for. I have seen one publication which had a "generic" set of
cockpit pictures just labeled Curtiss Hawk.
Bill Shuey
news.verizon.net
Before I start, I might say that the lack of a good quality, in print
english reference for this important aircraft is PATHETIC!
There is a Hawk that is restored in French colors. I believe it was
featured on Hyperscale a couple of months back in the walkaround you
mentioned.
Unfortunately, I do not know the provence of that bird, so it would be hard
to draw a definitive conclusion from a restored aircraft such as that.
Same goes for profiles that you see in magazines.
There are some things that are known though. One is that the French Hawks
A-1 A-2 and A-3 are closely based on the P-36A. The P-36A had a clear coat
laquer as everyone has mentioned.
Now this is where it gets tricky. If you look at period photographs, you
can see that the windows covering the cutouts behind the cockpit sometimes
reveal an interior color different from the exterior color.
I have seen photographs of French Hawks with that portion of the interior
natural metal, a shade lighter than the exterior camoflage, and shades that
are equal of the camoflage!
Of course, having camoflage in that area is natural as the windows were
easier to remove and paint underneath than to mask off.
The three volumes on the P-36 from AJ Press are no help either as the
interior photos are from an American P36A (in laquer clear coat - natural
metal), and an Argentinian Hawk 75-O which looks to be in zinc chromate.
These are factory photos that probably went into maintenance manuals.
Back to the French, the best photos of Hawks I have are in Avions issues
#133 and #46. There are several COLOR photos of Hawks in the articles,
sometimes of the SAME squadron showing that Hawks had their cockpit cutouts
both silver and a green color (sometimes lighter, sometimes darker than the
exterior but hardly ever the same).
Of course I don't have good interior photos of French Hawks or else I would
cite them. If there are any conclusions I would draw, here they are:
Logic says that if the cutout is silver, I doubt that the rest of the
interior would be painted in zinc chromate.
There are some photos of Hawks, that look freshly delivered in a rectangular
array, and they ALL have silver cutouts. These are A-1's.
The political situation of the French dictated that they need the Hawks NOW.
Being Germany's neighbor the writing was on the wall and they would of
specified minimal differences in the Hawks separate from the P-36A.
If there was a change at the Curtiss factory to zinc chromate primer, it
would of been dictated by the USAAF, and not France. That may of happened
in the later runs of Hawks, ie A4, aks Mohawk IV with the Wright 1820 9 cyl.
engine.
I would say paint your interior natural metal if it is a French Hawk A-1 or
A-2. Unless you have photo references of the actual bird that would be the
best educated guess.
Can you guys tell I have been searching for the same info???
Now if I could only get the Docavia Hawk book by Jean Cuny - I think that
would have the answer!
Keith Walker
"Hishyeness" <asd...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:1120139113....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
: Gents
:
Brian Burr Chin
edition of WingMasters consecrated to French Air Force fighters, the Curtiss
cockpit was painted interior green, not zinc chromate. The article describes
further interior green as being more yellowish than zinc chromate. Article
claims this color was also used in the wheel wells. Sorry for reporting
otherwise in first post.
Flying Frog
Yes, that's exactly the reminding I have also.
Hishyeness
You've been a goldmine of information.
I started back into the hobby around six months ago with the aim of
putting together a collection of single engined WWII fighters of the
European front in 1?72 scale. This quickly grew to twin-engined birds
as well, and then I made the fatal mistake of buying a light bomber,
then a medium bomber etc. so now my "to build" collection comprises all
the major aircraft types that flew in WWII operated by the French,
British, Germans, Soviets, Italians, Czechs an Americans in Europe.
THEN, my wife bought me a Hasegawa kit of the Zero, and all of a sudden
the Pacific theatre opened its welcoming arms, and the dam burst to
include all IJN and IJA fighters and bombers and their USN equivalents!
In other words, if it flew between 1939 and 1945, it's probably sitting
on my shelf (bar the really hard to find Japanese examples - i.e.
Frances, Grace, Helen, Irving, Lily, Nate, Rita and Sally).
So then, amongst these 100 or so kits (many in different types of the
same aircraft) I developed a preference for the Do-17, the P-36/Hawk
75, the Me Bf 110 and the P-61 Black Widow. I had done some preliminary
research on the Hawk 75, hence the original question, so thanks again
for adding to my knowledge base...
Charles Metz
Two copies of the Docavia book are offered for sale at:
http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Cuny&y=10&tn=Hawk+75&x=63
Also, a slightly revised but essentially similar version of that book
has been published in English:
Beauchamp and Cuny: 'Curtiss Hawk 75' (ViP Press [USA], 1996; 344 pages)
-- AIRCRAFT TYPES INCLUDED: Curtiss Hawk 75 (P-36, Curtiss H-75,
Mohawk), XP-23 (P-23), XP-1 (P-1), P-6, BFC, BF2C (Hawk II, Hawk III,
Hawk IV), XP-31 (P-31), P-26, Seversky 1 XP (Sev-1XP), XP-37 (P-37),
Seversky AP-4, XP-42 (P-42), Dewoitine D.21 C-1, P-40 (Curtiss Hawk 81);
COCKPIT DETAIL: Curtiss Hawk 75 A-4 (p. 31, 34, 93), P-36C (p. 32,
33); WHEELWELL DETAIL: YP-37 [P-37] (p. 30); MISCELLANEOUS DETAIL:
Curtiss Hawk 75 [P-36] cowl (p. 17, 97), cowl guns (p. 278), engine (p.
28, 35, 37), fuselage panels (p. 24), gunsight (p. 285, 286), landing
gear (p. 27, 28, 100), propeller (p. 30), tail (p. 23, 26), underwing
bombs (p. 285), wings (p. 22, 24, 25, 30), wing guns (p. 276, 279-284);
Finnish Hawk 75 Revi C/12/D gunsight (p. 286); Mohawk IV gunsight (p.
286); XP-37 [P-37] engine mount (p. 44, 48); P-40 [Curtiss Hawk 81]
Allison engine (p. 38); MULTI-VIEW DRAWINGS: Hawk 75 [Curtiss H-75]
prototype (p. 327), retractable-gear version (p. 323-326, fixed-gear
version (p. 328), supercharged version (p. 331), "all-flying tail"
version (p. 332); XP-37 [P-37] (p. 333); XP-42 [P-42] (p. 329, 330);
GENERIC CAMOUFLAGE PATTERNS: Mohawk IV (p. 242-245); GENERIC MARKING
PATTERNS: Mohawk IV (p. 242-245), P-35 (p. 233), P-36 (p. 233, 234);
SPECIFIC MARKING PROFILES: Hawk IV [BF2C] (p. 252), Hawk 75 [Curtiss
H-75] prototype (p. 252), Hawk 75 "Hawk Special" [fixed-gear version
used by Gen. Chennault] (p. 258), Hawk 75A-1 (p. 258-260), Hawk
75A-1/2/3/4/6 [Finland] (p. 247, 248), Hawk 75A-2 (p. 261, 264), Hawk
75A-3 (p. 262, 263), Hawk 75A-4 (p. 263, 265), Hawk 75A-5 (p. 267), Hawk
75A-6 (p. 260, 264, 265), Hawk 75A-7 [Netherlands] (p. 263), Hawk 75A-8
[Norway] (p. 265), Hawk 75A-9 (p. 267), Hawk 75M [China] (p. 259), Hawk
75N [Netherlands] (p. 259), Hawk 750 [Argentina] (p. 258), Hawk 751[?]
[France] (p. 263), Mohawk IV (p. 242-245, 251, 262, 266, 267), XP-31
[P-31] (p. 252), Y1P-36 [P-36] (p. 253), P-36A (p. 253, 255, 256, 261),
P-36C (p. 254, 257), XP-37 [P-37] (p. 255), XP-40 [P-40 prototype] (p.
257), XP-42 [P-42] (p. 257); COMMENT(s): Revised English translation of
Collection Docavia No. 22, by Cuny & Beauchamp. Softcover. Dated 1996
but actually issued in 1997
Unfortunately, I suspect that it, too, is now out of print.
Charles Metz
--------------------------------------
Mad-Modeller
>
> Many thanks gents
>
> You've been a goldmine of information.
>
> I started back into the hobby around six months ago with the aim of
> putting together a collection of single engined WWII fighters of the
> European front in 1?72 scale. This quickly grew to twin-engined birds
> as well, and then I made the fatal mistake of buying a light bomber,
> then a medium bomber etc. so now my "to build" collection comprises all
> the major aircraft types that flew in WWII operated by the French,
> British, Germans, Soviets, Italians, Czechs an Americans in Europe.
>
> THEN, my wife bought me a Hasegawa kit of the Zero, and all of a sudden
> the Pacific theatre opened its welcoming arms, and the dam burst to
> include all IJN and IJA fighters and bombers and their USN equivalents!
> In other words, if it flew between 1939 and 1945, it's probably sitting
> on my shelf (bar the really hard to find Japanese examples - i.e.
> Frances, Grace, Helen, Irving, Lily, Nate, Rita and Sally).
>
> So then, amongst these 100 or so kits (many in different types of the
> same aircraft) I developed a preference for the Do-17, the P-36/Hawk
> 75, the Me Bf 110 and the P-61 Black Widow. I had done some preliminary
> research on the Hawk 75, hence the original question, so thanks again
> for adding to my knowledge base...
Stop! You're giving me flashbacks! I didn't quit when I got to the end
of WWII. I kept getting more and more modern stuff then worked my way
back to WWI. And I couldn't quit at just one of each. There were too
many neat colour schemes out there......
I was well on my way to trying for at least one of everything before I
made myself quit. I should live so long. ;)
Bill Banaszak, MFE
Mad Modeller
> have total......by a large number.
Well, now, I wouldn't say that...I built all those. I sure as heck
bought them though.
It helped that I never took a sabbatical like some folks did. Once I
got going I never laid off. The departure of the former management in
1985 helped too. I didn't have to answer to anybody as long as all my
bills were paid and the groceries were in.
I did post pics on abms a few years back of the unbuilt collection. I
remember it caused Rufus to comment about being glad he stuck to 1/32,
IIRC.
Bill Banaszak, MFE
Dave Hill
<vze3...@verizon.net> writes
Both flypast and Aeroplane monthly (Jan 2005) feature the air worthy Hawk 75
from the fighter collection..
This is a genuine ex Armee de d'lAir H75-A1. The articles include colour photos
of the restored cockpit. Can't guarantee these are as per original, but given
the evident care in restoration I'd bet it was accurate for this particular
bird.
The cockpit is basically light green (green, not zinc chromate), as is the cut-
out under the transparency behind the cockpit. Instrument panel, gun butts and
head-cushion are black. The floor (& some lower panels on the cockpit sides)
are aluminium, but the stick & a panel in the centre of the floor are light
green.
I'd guess that all French Hawk interiors would be finished to the French spec.
Some of the details of this spec would be non-trivial; French language
labelling, metric instrumentation and throttles operating in the reverse sense
to British & American aircraft. By 1940 most of the birds coming off the line
would be to French orders, so they'd be set up to produce them to this
standard.
--
Dave Hill