F-14 colors
douglas jenkins
As you all probably know, I am building Tamiya's 1/32 F-14A (1994). I
will be painting the "Jolly Rogers" paint scheme. On the box, Tamiya
shows that the "Jolly Rogers" F-14 is painted overall with either Light
Grey or Medium Grey (you tell me), as opposed to the two or three shades
of grey for the other squadron F-14's. The box also shows that the
"Jolly Rogers" vertical tails are completely black with white "Skull and
Cross Bones". Is this correct? I haven't been able to find any
references with a picture of a "Jolly Rogers" F-14 in the new "low
contrast" paint scheme, so any help would be appreciated. Also, I am
getting ready to paint the inside of the intakes. I don't have any
pictures that show the full length of the intakes in the "low contrast"
paint scheme. I have one picture that shows a partial view of the intake
starting right before the second air bleed ramp. This picture shows that
the ramp is Gloss White inside the whole ramp except for the area right
before the second air bleed ramp, which is painted the outside color of
grey (in other words, the ramp is white, but the area around the ramps is
grey). Also, the box picture shows that the little strips on the bottom
lip of the intakes is still bare aluminum, and the leading edges of the
wings are still also bare aluminum. Is this correct? I hope this is
clear, but if not, I appologize.
Thanks for any help,
Doug
José Herculano
>As you all probably know, I am building Tamiya's 1/32 F-14A (1994). I
>will be painting the "Jolly Rogers" paint scheme. On the box, Tamiya
2 questions before hand:
1: do you want to use the scheme provided, or are willing to try another
one, with the possible necessity of aftermarket decals?
2: describe me the squeme you have on the box.
From that info I'll give you all the answers to your query.
Jose
David Tsui
daje...@auriga.unm.edu (douglas jenkins) wrote:
>As you all probably know, I am building Tamiya's 1/32 F-14A (1994). I
>will be painting the "Jolly Rogers" paint scheme. On the box, Tamiya
>shows that the "Jolly Rogers" F-14 is painted overall with either Light
>Grey or Medium Grey (you tell me), as opposed to the two or three shades
>of grey for the other squadron F-14's. The box also shows that the
>"Jolly Rogers" vertical tails are completely black with white "Skull and
>Cross Bones". Is this correct?
There is a June 1996 issue of Aviation Week and Space Technology
(sorry, don't recall exact week) that has a "Jolly Rogers" F-14 on the
cover, and the cover story had a few color shots of an F-14 used as a
testbed. A good public library or the engineering library of a
university should have a subscription. BTW, they were testing a cheap
LANTIRN system for Tomcats.
I recall that the tail is painted grey and the skull and crossbones
are a darker shade of grey.
Also, apparently the Jolly Rogers are no longer VF-84, but are VF-13_
(can't remember the third digit, but the answer is in that issue of
AW&ST).
Hope this helps,
Dave Tsui
dt...@ix.netcom.com
Scott Van Aken
The Jolly Rogers tail markings have been moved over to VF-103 following the
disestablishment of VF-84. This movement of markings is becoming rather
commonplace in the USN/USMC die to downsizing and that loss of squadrons.
Scott
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And now..back to reality, which is already in progress
Firesign Theater
Joe Hegedus
In article <4rndg6$2...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, dt...@ix.netcom.com says...
The Jolly Rogers are now VF-103. VF-84 was disestablished at the end of September
of 1995. BUT, the last scheme used by VF-84 was overall gray, it looked about
Dark Ghost Gray, or there abouts, with black fins that carried white skull and
crossbones. No yellow tips, though. I saw the last of these aircraft at NAS
Oceana last year, a few days before the disestablishment ceremony. The rest of the
markings were low-vis grays, including the band on the forward fuselage with the
chevrons on it. The gray in the markings was slightly darker, IIRC, than the rest
of the plane.
Joe
Joe Hegedus
In article <4rp2dh$4...@news-e2b.gnn.com>, svan...@gnn.com says...
Kinda makes you wonder, though, why they just didn't get rid of VF-103 rather than
go through the hassle of shuffling everything around. I guess that's the way the
buearacracy functions....
Joe
Chris Douglas
douglas jenkins wrote:
>
> As you all probably know, I am building Tamiya's 1/32 F-14A (1994). I
> will be painting the "Jolly Rogers" paint scheme. On the box, Tamiya
> shows that the "Jolly Rogers" F-14 is painted overall with either Light
> Grey or Medium Grey (you tell me), as opposed to the two or three shades
> of grey for the other squadron F-14's. The box also shows that the
> "Jolly Rogers" vertical tails are completely black with white "Skull and
> references with a picture of a "Jolly Rogers" F-14 in the new "low
> contrast" paint scheme, so any help would be appreciated. Also, I am
> getting ready to paint the inside of the intakes. I don't have any
> pictures that show the full length of the intakes in the "low contrast"
> paint scheme. I have one picture that shows a partial view of the intake
> starting right before the second air bleed ramp. This picture shows that
> the ramp is Gloss White inside the whole ramp except for the area right
> before the second air bleed ramp, which is painted the outside color of
> grey (in other words, the ramp is white, but the area around the ramps is
> grey). Also, the box picture shows that the little strips on the bottom
> lip of the intakes is still bare aluminum, and the leading edges of the
> wings are still also bare aluminum. Is this correct? I hope this is
> clear, but if not, I appologize.
>
> Thanks for any help,
>
> Doug
In most cases the low-vis VF-84 Jolly Rogers birds carried the skull-and-
crossbones in dark grey on a lighter grey tail, though there were exceptions
(most notably the occasional CAG bird). VF-103 has been the Jolly Rogers for
only a couple of months so far, and I've already seen two distinct versions
of their low-vis scheme: one with dark grey skull-and-bones on a light grey
tail (depicted in a recent issue of Koku Fan), one with white skull-and-bones
on a black or dark grey tail (though interesting all other colors have been
omitted, including the normally yellow portions on the under-canopy stripe,
which are now white. This one is in Aviation Week's article on LANTIRN
integration. It's pretty sharp). I've yet to see a high-vis VF-103 Jolly
Rogers scheme (unless that latter case counts as high-vis).
Of course, you wouldn't be too interested in the VF-103 Jolly Rogers, as they
fly F-14B's, not A's.
--
-----------------------------------------------------
Chris Douglas - cdou...@origin.ea.com
Production Designer/Animator - Origin Systems, Inc.
-----------------------------------------------------
Opinions expressed are my own.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
You have escaped from it, but it is there, always following you.
It is there, in your heart and your mind, in the very depths and
recesses of your being. You have covered it up, escaped, run
away; but it is there. And the mind must experience it like a
purgation by fire. --Krishnamurti.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
José Herculano
>>The Jolly Rogers tail markings have been moved over to VF-103 following the
>>disestablishment of VF-84. This movement of markings is becoming rather
>>commonplace in the USN/USMC die to downsizing and that loss of squadrons.
They just passed the bones and the markings. remember that VF-84
flew F-14As and VF-103 flys F-14Bs.
Jose
José Herculano
>The Jolly Rogers are now VF-103. VF-84 was disestablished at the end of September
>of 1995. BUT, the last scheme used by VF-84 was overall gray, it looked about
>Dark Ghost Gray, or there abouts, with black fins that carried white skull and
>crossbones. No yellow tips, though. I saw the last of these aircraft at NAS
>Oceana last year, a few days before the disestablishment ceremony. The rest of the
>markings were low-vis grays, including the band on the forward fuselage with the
>chevrons on it. The gray in the markings was slightly darker, IIRC, than the rest
>of the plane.
The best colour scheme can easily be made from Hasegawa's 1/48th
Atlantic Fleet Tomcat and two other decal sheets:
It was worn by birds modex 200 and 201 and it is:
Overall 16440 gray
Black tails with white skull and crossbones outside,
AJ in yellow in the inside
Full colour, full size national insignia, and full colour
fuselage band
Radome tan radome
The fuselage band can be taken form Hasegawa's sheet, as well as
the full colour, full size national insignia
The skull & bones is different, but it can be taken out of Super
Scale decal sheet 48-512. For the yellow AJ, you have the correct
shape on 48-438, although it is in white. Xerox it and use it as
a guide to cut it into a plain yellow base decal sheet.
For those interested, I can provide full detail for bird 201,
BuNo, pilot names, etc.
Jose
Chris Douglas
> >disestablishment of VF-84. This movement of markings is becoming rather
> >commonplace in the USN/USMC die to downsizing and that loss of squadrons.
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >And now..back to reality, which is already in progress
> >Firesign Theater
> >
>
> Kinda makes you wonder, though, why they just didn't get rid of VF-103 rather than
> go through the hassle of shuffling everything around. I guess that's the way the
> buearacracy functions....
>
> Joe
I believe it had to do with where the units were home-stationed.
Joe Hegedus
In article <31E42E...@origin.ea.com>, Chris says...
>
>Joe Hegedus wrote:
>>
>> In article <4rp2dh$4...@news-e2b.gnn.com>, svan...@gnn.com says...
>> >
>> >The Jolly Rogers tail markings have been moved over to VF-103 following the
>> >disestablishment of VF-84. This movement of markings is becoming rather
>> >commonplace in the USN/USMC die to downsizing and that loss of squadrons.
>> > Scott
>> Kinda makes you wonder, though, why they just didn't get rid of VF-103 rather than
>> go through the hassle of shuffling everything around. I guess that's the way the
>> buearacracy functions....
>>
>> Joe
>
>I believe it had to do with where the units were home-stationed.
>
I kinda doubt that, both are/were East Coast squadrons based at NAS Oceana.
Joe
Tim Piscitelli
A few years back, I saw a couple of photos of an F-14A (don't
recall the squadron) taken from the island of a carrier. The
interesting thing about the aircraft was that it showed one or
two Tomcats in a green/grey disruptive pattern. The aircraft
looked like they were in a standard low vis grey pattern, but
had field applied dark green over about 40% of the airframe.
The owner of the photos said that there were only two aircraft
painted in that scheme and that they were generally kept below
decks. The aircraft carrier was on station in the Persian Gulf
during the Iran/Iraq war.
Has anyone heard of this, or are there pictures published? My
immediate reaction to the pictures was that it would make a
great subject for a model.
Tim
Ken Koller
Tim Piscitelli (t...@indy.net) wrote:
: A few years back, I saw a couple of photos of an F-14A (don't
F-14s, as well as other Navy aircraft are routinely painted in odd
schemes such as the one mentioned above. Yet it is done with temporary
paint over the standard colors. A lot of times you'll see funky colored
F-14s particiapting in exercises.
I've seen photos of such paint jobs published, but I can't remember
where, probably the Hook or AvLeak. For an example try the Aerofax
Minigraph F/A-18 Hornet book, page 23 for a blue on grey VX-4 F-18. Also,
most F-14 books have photos of Heater-Ferris scheme F-14s, the Minigraph
F-14 book has two color shots on page 18.
--
Ken Koller kko...@adnetsol.com
Fireline Images, Fire/Rescue/EMS photography
http://www.islandnet.com/~waynej/Ken_Koller/fireline.html
Jumpstart a life, learn CPR
Steve Collins
heg...@mail.ameritel.net (Joe Hegedus) wrote:
>Joe
If the Navy does it the same way the Air Force does, it depends on the
unit history, combat honors, date of original establishment, etc. I
don't know why they would move unit emblems and nicknames around,
though.
Steve
Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big
bites. Moderation is for monks.
The Notebooks of Lazarus Long
Donny CHAN
In article <31E7AC...@indy.net>, Tim Piscitelli <t...@indy.net> wrote:
]A few years back, I saw a couple of photos of an F-14A (don't
]recall the squadron) taken from the island of a carrier. The
]interesting thing about the aircraft was that it showed one or
]two Tomcats in a green/grey disruptive pattern. The aircraft
]looked like they were in a standard low vis grey pattern, but
]had field applied dark green over about 40% of the airframe.
]The owner of the photos said that there were only two aircraft
]painted in that scheme and that they were generally kept below
]decks. The aircraft carrier was on station in the Persian Gulf
]during the Iran/Iraq war.
Just guessing: Maybe they were F-14s configured for high-speed air-to-ground
reconnaissance?
]Has anyone heard of this, or are there pictures published? My
]immediate reaction to the pictures was that it would make a
]great subject for a model.
Personally, I think the most "interesting" paint scheme on a F-14 type is the
Iranian colours and markings on the IRIAF F-14 "Ali Cat."
Urban Fredriksson
>The
>interesting thing about the aircraft was that it showed one or
>two Tomcats in a green/grey disruptive pattern. The aircraft
>looked like they were in a standard low vis grey pattern, but
>had field applied dark green over about 40% of the airframe.
There has been photos of a similar F-14 published. I can't
find where, it but was fitted with TARPS for reconnaissance.
--
Urban Fredriksson gri...@kuai.se
Weekly news, the r.a.m FAQ -> http://www.kuai.se/%7Egriffon/aviation/
Latest addition: Swiss Hunter photos, JAS 39 Gripen text update
J.C.
What about Hornets painted 50% Black, 50% White? :)
--
J.C.
AMS Sufferer
Lead Guitar, Taunt
FLY NAVY
david dean (grad student)
I have personally seen one supertomcat pained olive green.
--
__ Dave Dean
_ \_\o g54...@labsun1.med.uottawa.ca o /
(_)/ _\. Department of Physiology /<._ /
\ (_) Faculty of Medicine _-> (_)/
\____________________University of Ottawa, Canada_____________(_)'___/
Edmund Hon
Tim Piscitelli <t...@indy.net> was saying:
> A few years back, I saw a couple of photos of an F-14A (don't
> recall the squadron) taken from the island of a carrier. The
> interesting thing about the aircraft was that it showed one or
> two Tomcats in a green/grey disruptive pattern. The aircraft
> looked like they were in a standard low vis grey pattern, but
> had field applied dark green over about 40% of the airframe.
Could be the Ferris scheme, developed by the aviation artist Keith Ferris (he
did that big B-17 mural in the Air & Space Museum in D.C.), based on German
WW2 camouflage patterns. I have a F-15 book with a picture and drawings of a
similar scheme on the Eagle, and I actually applied it to a Hasegawa 1/48
F-15C. It looks very good.
/// __ / edm...@ipoline.com
/// /_ dmund / "Major? FYI, ABC needs TLAM-C BDA's PDQ or ASAP!"
/// /_/_/ / - ABC correspondent Roland Hedley,
/// / /on / during a Desert Storm press briefing
John Weiss
On 07/13/96 07:03PM, in message <31E7AC...@indy.net>, Tim Piscitelli <t...@indy.net> wrote:
In the mid to late 80s the Navy (and several individual squadrons and air wings) experimented with
temporary, theater-specific paint schemes applied with a water-based paint over the regular paint.
You may find a variety of paint schemes from that era.
> A few years back, I saw a couple of photos of an F-14A (don't
> recall the squadron) taken from the island of a carrier. The
> interesting thing about the aircraft was that it showed one or
> two Tomcats in a green/grey disruptive pattern. The aircraft
> looked like they were in a standard low vis grey pattern, but
> had field applied dark green over about 40% of the airframe.
> The owner of the photos said that there were only two aircraft
> painted in that scheme and that they were generally kept below
> decks. The aircraft carrier was on station in the Persian Gulf
> during the Iran/Iraq war.
> Has anyone heard of this, or are there pictures published? My
> immediate reaction to the pictures was that it would make a
> great subject for a model.
>
> Tim
--
John Weiss
Bare Bones BBS, Seattle, WA
206-368-7672
EugeneK4
Hey JC - since I'm in the area - where do I catch you playing lead guitar
with Taunt? (Like that name much better than BJ).
Gene
Mary Shafer
On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 06:10:47 GMT, GNOC...@worldnet.att.net (George Nock) said:
G> "J.C." <ea...@crosslink.net> wrote:
>What about Hornets painted 50% Black, 50% White? :)
G> i think they are the nasa birds
There's only one black and white F-18 here at Dryden, the F-18 High
Alpha Research Aircraft (HARV). The rest of our F-18s are in our
default livery of gloss white with a cheatline stripe of dark blue
with metallic gold edging.
The HARV was painted black on its dorsal surfaces to make the white
smoke that we were injecting into the forebody vortices highly
visible. We kept the plane in rather motley mostly white while we
were doing the on-surface flow visualization with the orange PGME but
repainted, with the black dorsal, edged in metallic gold, and the
white ventral when we moved on to off-surface flow visualization with
the white smoke.
--
Mary Shafer NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA
SR-71 Flying Qualities Lead Engineer Of course I don't speak for NASA
sha...@ferhino.dfrc.nasa.gov DoD #362 KotFR
URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html
For personal messages, please use sha...@ursa-major.spdcc.com
Mary Shafer
On 16 Jul 1996 19:28:02 GMT, na...@windvane.umd.edu (David Hyde) said:
D> George Nock (GNOC...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
> "J.C." <ea...@crosslink.net> wrote:
> >What about Hornets painted 50% Black, 50% White? :)
> i think they are the nasa birds
D> There was one Navy F-18A painted half black, half white for (IIRC)
D> attitude recognition on cine-photo-theodolite footage. There are
D> more details :), but my memory is sketchy.
It was so we could see the white smoke we use for off-surface flow
visualization.
I don't think we've ever done cinetheodolite with that plane.
D> It also had a nice "D'Skunk" in cursive painted on the dorsal
D> spine.
Well, it says "Silk Purse" on the canopy rail (because we proved that
you can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear), but I just went and
looked for the other and it's not there.
Bradley Flick
In article <SHAFER.96J...@ferhino.dfrf.nasa.gov>,
sha...@ferhino.dfrc.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) wrote:
> On 16 Jul 1996 19:28:02 GMT, na...@windvane.umd.edu (David Hyde) said:
>
>
> D> George Nock (GNOC...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
> > "J.C." <ea...@crosslink.net> wrote:
>
> > >What about Hornets painted 50% Black, 50% White? :)
>
> > i think they are the nasa birds
>
> D> There was one Navy F-18A painted half black, half white for (IIRC)
> D> attitude recognition on cine-photo-theodolite footage. There are
> D> more details :), but my memory is sketchy.
>
> It was so we could see the white smoke we use for off-surface flow
> visualization.
>
> I don't think we've ever done cinetheodolite with that plane.
Mary,
You're right as usual. There was never any theodolite work done with the
HARV. As a side note, the black upper surface was a real nightmare from a
temperature control standpoint. We installed instrumentation in some
uncooled bays in the wing root and turtleback. This proved fatal for more
than one of these devices due to excessive temperatures in the bays. We
took the low tech fix and applied reflective tape to the panels over those
bays and voila, no more temperature problem. Didn't help the aesthetics
though. :)
> D> It also had a nice "D'Skunk" in cursive painted on the dorsal
> D> spine.
>
> Well, it says "Silk Purse" on the canopy rail (because we proved that
> you can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear), but I just went and
> looked for the other and it's not there.
Again, Mary's correct. Although, for the first couple of years I was
unconvinced it would actually make silk purse status.
Brad Flick
F-18 HARV Operations Engineer
Ken Koller
Donny CHAN (crs...@inforamp.net) wrote:
: Just guessing: Maybe they were F-14s configured for high-speed air-to-ground
: reconnaissance?
A handfull of F-14s have Tactical Air Reconnaissance Pod System (TARPS)
capabilty, which is simply carried externally on the #3 Phoenix station
between the engines.
: ]Has anyone heard of this, or are there pictures published? My
: ]immediate reaction to the pictures was that it would make a
: ]great subject for a model.
: Personally, I think the most "interesting" paint scheme on a F-14 type is the
: Iranian colours and markings on the IRIAF F-14 "Ali Cat."
Top Gun had or may still have a F-14 painted in Iran Desert Scheme. Looks
cool.
Some of the temporary schemes have been really cool looking, everything
from green on brown, to even snow camo similar to what was tried out on
A-10s once.
Best thing I ever saw was a 3 tone blue camo E-2C Hawkeye. It was a one
flight only thing after the CO found out about it and made them wash the
paint off.
George Nock
"J.C." <ea...@crosslink.net> wrote:
>What about Hornets painted 50% Black, 50% White? :)
>--
>J.C.
>AMS Sufferer
>Lead Guitar, Taunt
>FLY NAVY
David Lednicer
Once upon a time (late 1970s? early 1980s?) there were several
F-14s painted in a disruptive scheme designed by Keith Ferris, the
aviation artist. This scheme also appeared on some German F-4Fs. He
also came up with the idea of painting a fake canopy on the bottom of
fighters - this makes it very difficult, at a glance, to figure if it is
turning away from you or towards you. Some A-10s had this and at least
one of the two F-16XLs.
Rumor has it that he wanted licensing fees for the schemes and
the US DoD refused to cough up. However, the Canadians did cough up and
they have (or at least did have) fake canopies on the bottom of their
F-18s.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
David Lednicer | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics"
Analytical Methods, Inc. | email: da...@amiwest.com
2133 152nd Ave NE | tel: (206) 643-9090
Redmond, WA 98052 USA | fax: (206) 746-1299
David Hyde
> >What about Hornets painted 50% Black, 50% White? :)
> i think they are the nasa birds
There was one Navy F-18A painted half black, half white for (IIRC) attitude
recognition on cine-photo-theodolite footage. There are more details :),
but my memory is sketchy.
It also had a nice "D'Skunk" in cursive painted on the dorsal spine.
Dave 'don't stink' Hyde
na...@windvane.umd.edu
LCDR1635
I've seen the fake canopy on some US F-18s as well.
John H. Eckhardt
It's not my spelling or grammer
that's so bad. It's my typing.
Donny CHAN
Now that I think about the colours on the USAF/USMC/USN aircraft in ID4, none
of them have the fancy-looking but practical gold-tinted canopies. Does the US
military still use these tinted canopies on their aircraft, or are these
limited to frontline squadrons at foreign airbases or on USN carriers?
Todd Enlund
sha...@ferhino.dfrc.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) wrote:
>D> There was one Navy F-18A painted half black, half white for (IIRC)
>D> attitude recognition on cine-photo-theodolite footage. There are
>D> more details :), but my memory is sketchy.
>It was so we could see the white smoke we use for off-surface flow
>visualization.
>I don't think we've ever done cinetheodolite with that plane.
>D> It also had a nice "D'Skunk" in cursive painted on the dorsal
>D> spine.
>Well, it says "Silk Purse" on the canopy rail (because we proved that
>you can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear), but I just went and
>looked for the other and it's not there.
Wrong plane. There was a Navy F/A-18 painted black & white... but
asymetrically. The top left and bottom right (I think) were black,
and the rest was white. It DID have D'Skunk painted on the spine. I
think it belonged to NATC Pax River.
Todd Enlund
"Bandits at 3 O'clock"
"Roger. What should I do 'till then?"
Mary Shafer
On 17 Jul 1996 11:43:32 GMT, na...@windvane.umd.edu (David Hyde) said:
N> There was _another_ F-18A, in Navy inventory, flew out of
N> Pax River and China Lake, that was painted black and white, with
N> "D'Skunk" painted on the side. I can show you pictures next time
N> I'm out there. :) As it was explained to me (which makes it a risky
N> proposition), it was so that the attitude could be easily
N> determined from theodolite footage. It wasn't a symmetric scheme
N> like the HARV, but rather the upper surface of one wing was black,
N> the lower white, while the pattern was reversed on the other wing.
N> The fuselage and other surfaces were also asymmetric black/white.
N> It's easier to show than describe, but it ain't the HARV.
Sort of a checkerboard pattern, right? It's to give some nice,
high-contrast intersections for the folks reading up the
cinetheodolite film to lock onto. They need two per frame to do
attitude.
I've never like cinetheodolite and now that we've used the laser
tracking system, I'll never use cinetheodolite again. Period. Laser
tracking gives you all the data in real time, plotted nicely. None of
the delay, none of the hassle, none of the error. Just put a target,
an eight-inch hemisphere with seven corner reflectors for all aspect
tracking, on a skin panel on each side and track. Max error a foot at
20 miles, half an inch at 2 miles. Instrument for aircraft attitude.
They had these around, either at KSC or DFRC, in the late seventies,
for the Shuttle program. Unfortunately, they were not at all
well-known and I ended up doing cinetheodolite for a TIFS Shuttle
study. The cost, the delay, the so-so accuracy (inherent)--they drove
me crazy.
David Hyde
Mary Shafer (sha...@ferhino.dfrc.nasa.gov) wrote:
> Sort of a checkerboard pattern, right?
Yup.
> I've never like cinetheodolite and now that we've used the laser
> tracking system, I'll never use cinetheodolite again. Period. Laser
> tracking gives you all the data in real time, plotted nicely.
Harder to do when you're looking at weapon separation (hard to put a
grapefruit on a bomb), high altitude work (in our haze and humidity), or
offsite stuff (not many laser trackers on carriers). CPT still has its
place, believe it or not.
> the delay, none of the hassle, none of the error. Just put a target,
> an eight-inch hemisphere with seven corner reflectors for all aspect
> tracking
'grapefruit'
> [...] Max error a foot at
> 20 miles, half an inch at 2 miles.
And eye-safe requirements for any other aircraft in the area - not necessarily
trivial if you're looking at a 20 mile laser (!!).
Dave 'zapped' Hyde
na...@windvane.umd.edu
Chris E. Becht
Chris Douglas (cdou...@origin.ea.com) wrote:
: David Lednicer wrote:
: >
: > Rumor has it that he wanted licensing fees for the schemes and
: > the US DoD refused to cough up. However, the Canadians did cough up and
: > they have (or at least did have) fake canopies on the bottom of their
: > F-18s.
: I doubt the idea of painting a false canopy can be copyrighted. Many
: U.S.
: F/A-18's have flown with false canopies, including many in Desert Storm.
: British Jaguars carried false canopies as well.
Sure it can. And even during wartime, copyright and patent laws
are more closely adhered to than any other kind of treaty.
frex: Vickers paid Krupp a royalty for most every artillary shell
fired by the Royal Arty during WWI. The oil fields at Ploesti were owned
and operated by Shell and Standard. Standard Oil (Stanavo) had an
exclusive contract to supply POL to the Luftwaffe and Whermacht durig WWI.
--
Life is like a cow.
You get out of it what you put in. cali...@crl.com
But, umm... different somehow.
Mary Shafer
On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 22:57:40 GMT, brad_...@qmgate.dfrc.nasa.gov (Bradley Flick) said:
B> Mary, You're right as usual. There was never any theodolite work
B> done with the HARV. As a side note, the black upper surface was a
B> real nightmare from a temperature control standpoint. We installed
B> instrumentation in some uncooled bays in the wing root and
B> turtleback. This proved fatal for more than one of these devices
B> due to excessive temperatures in the bays. We took the low tech
B> fix and applied reflective tape to the panels over those bays and
B> voila, no more temperature problem. Didn't help the aesthetics
B> though. :)
As if all that strip-a-tubing and other surface instrumentation all
over the plane hadn't set the aesthetics back markedly. But putting
such instrumentation on the plane would have been essentially
impossible any other way.
The HARV was gorgeous when it came back with the new paint job, but
we've slowly but surely added all sorts of things all over the plane,
making it pretty scruffy-looking. Sometimes I think they ended the
program because there wasn't enough room anymore to stick on more
things to ruin the looks.
B> Again, Mary's correct. Although, for the first couple of years I
B> was unconvinced it would actually make silk purse status.
You were definitely in good company there, Brad. I'd walk by it in
the main hangar, with all the missing parts, and really fret. I
should have had more confidence in our mechanics.
J.C.
Yeah, I know, but there was an older *80s* Revell kit of an
A-18 Hornet (NOT F/A-18 on the box, just A-18) with black and
white markings like that.. i'll pull mine out tomorrow!
--
J.C.
"In the name of the moon, i'll punish you!"- Usagi (Sailor
Moon)
Future USN Aviator
Modeling Addict
FLY NAVY
Chris Douglas
Mary Shafer wrote:
>
> On Tue, 16 Jul 1996 06:10:47 GMT, GNOC...@worldnet.att.net (George Nock) said:
>
>
> There's only one black and white F-18 here at Dryden, the F-18 High
> Alpha Research Aircraft (HARV). The rest of our F-18s are in our
> default livery of gloss white with a cheatline stripe of dark blue
> with metallic gold edging.
>
> The HARV was painted black on its dorsal surfaces to make the white
> smoke that we were injecting into the forebody vortices highly
> visible. We kept the plane in rather motley mostly white while we
> were doing the on-surface flow visualization with the orange PGME but
> repainted, with the black dorsal, edged in metallic gold, and the
> white ventral when we moved on to off-surface flow visualization with
> the white smoke.
> --
Doesn't Lockheed's Skunkworks also operate a black-and-white Hornet, or
did that plane become the HARV? Or am I just nuts?
--
-----------------------------------------------------
Chris Douglas - cdou...@origin.ea.com
Production Designer/Animator - Origin Systems, Inc.
-----------------------------------------------------
Opinions expressed are my own.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
You have escaped from it, but it is there, always following you.
It is there, in your heart and your mind, in the very depths and
recesses of your being. You have covered it up, escaped, run
away; but it is there. And the mind must experience it like a
purgation by fire. --Krishnamurti.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Douglas
The Hornets which downed the two Iraqi MiG-21's in DS (VFA-196?) bore
false
canopies.
Mary Shafer
On Wed, 17 Jul 1996 09:59:29 -0500, Chris Douglas <cdou...@origin.ea.com> said:
C> Doesn't Lockheed's Skunkworks also operate a black-and-white
C> Hornet, or did that plane become the HARV? Or am I just nuts?
I'd prefer to say you might be mistaken.
I don't know of any reason that the Lockheed Martin Skunk Works (LMSW)
would be operating a McDonnell F-18, no matter what its color. The
only possibiity I can think of is if the Navy sent one as part of a
joint project, but I think of LMSW as producing USAF aircraft, so I
think this is unlikely. In any case, it wasn't the plane that later
became the HARV.
The HARV was white with asymmetric international orange markings (it
had been the spin test vehicle in the acceptance testing) when it came
to Dryden. We replaced the parts that had been cannibalized from it
while it was in the boneyard at Pax with parts from the first
pre-production F-18, which had a snappy gloss white with blue and gold
markings. This made the HARV look very peculiar, with both sets of
markings.
We kept the plane in this hodgepodge while we did the on-surface flow
visualization, using bright red-orange PGME. The PGME wouldn't have
shown up well on anything but white, of course. Once we finished that
testing, we had the plane painted black dorsally, since we were doing
off-surface flow visualization by injecting smoke into the forebody
vortices at high angles of attack. The gold trim was added to make it
look nice (and, we always joked, because the then Chief Engineer is a
graduate of Purdue). The plane is gloss white ventrally.
A bit of HARV trivia: The HARV-to-be plane came to Dryden on a
flatbed truck; the first pre-production F-18 flew in. It was a long
struggle getting the HARV reassembled, since it hadn't flown for
years, and we did so by cannibalizing the first F-18. This might seem
backwards, to strip a flyable plane to rebuild an unflyable one, but
the HARV plane had the spin chute and everyone agreed it was easier to
rebuild the one than to put the spin chute hardware on the other.
That's why it says "Silk Purse"; we made it one, starting with a sow's
ear.
Todd Enlund
sha...@ferhino.dfrc.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) wrote:
>Sort of a checkerboard pattern, right? It's to give some nice,
>high-contrast intersections for the folks reading up the
>cinetheodolite film to lock onto. They need two per frame to do
>attitude.
No, it was painted approximately as your HARV, but with the colors
reversed on the other half of the airplane... white on top, black on
bottom.
David Hyde
Mary Shafer (sha...@ferhino.dfrc.nasa.gov) wrote:
> On 16 Jul 1996 19:28:02 GMT, na...@windvane.umd.edu (David Hyde) said:
> D> There was one Navy F-18A painted half black, half white for (IIRC)
> D> attitude recognition on cine-photo-theodolite footage. There are
> D> more details :), but my memory is sketchy.
> It was so we could see the white smoke we use for off-surface flow
> visualization.
> I don't think we've ever done cinetheodolite with that plane.
[reposted with details fixed]
C'mon, Mary, you and Brad both know I know what the HARV looks like. There
was _another_ F-18A, in Navy inventory, flew out of Pax River and China Lake,
that was painted black and white, with "D'Skunk" painted on the
side. I can show you pictures next time I'm out there. :)
As it was explained to me (which makes it a risky proposition), it was
so that the attitude could be easily determined from theodolite footage. It
wasn't a symmetric scheme like the HARV, but rather the upper surface
of one wing was black, the lower white, while the pattern was reversed
on the other wing. The fuselage and other surfaces were also asymmetric
black/white. It's easier to show than describe, but it ain't the HARV.
Dave 'Skunked again' Hyde
na...@windvane.umd.edu
Chad Miller
We replaced the parts that had been cannibalized from it
> while it was in the boneyard at Pax with parts from the first
> pre-production F-18, which had a snappy gloss white with blue and gold
> markings.
> Mary Shafer NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA
> SR-71 Flying Qualities Lead Engineer Of course I don't speak for NASA
Just for FYI, the forward section feet of ship #3 was converted into our
simulation cockpit here. We preserved the blue/gold on gloss paint as
befits an historical relic. Currently used for F/A-18A and F/A-18C
simulation work.
Chad Miller
Team Leader
Manned Flight Simulator Facility
Atlantic Ranges and Facilties
NAWC-AD, Patuxent River, Maryland
---------------------------------------------------------------------
'The skipper's say I'm Crazy, but I can prove them wrong
For I am in charge of the lower deck, with all that doth belong
Which they would not give to a Lunatic, and the competition so
strong!'
_Muholland's Contract_ Kipling
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Douglas
David Lednicer wrote:
>
> Once upon a time (late 1970s? early 1980s?) there were several
> F-14s painted in a disruptive scheme designed by Keith Ferris, the
> aviation artist. This scheme also appeared on some German F-4Fs. He
> also came up with the idea of painting a fake canopy on the bottom of
> fighters - this makes it very difficult, at a glance, to figure if it is
> turning away from you or towards you. Some A-10s had this and at least
> one of the two F-16XLs.
>
> the US DoD refused to cough up. However, the Canadians did cough up and
> they have (or at least did have) fake canopies on the bottom of their
> F-18s.
>
I doubt the idea of painting a false canopy can be copyrighted. Many
U.S.
F/A-18's have flown with false canopies, including many in Desert Storm.
British Jaguars carried false canopies as well.
--
Mary Shafer
On 17 Jul 1996 18:16:26 GMT, na...@windvane.umd.edu (David Hyde) said:
D> Mary Shafer (sha...@ferhino.dfrc.nasa.gov) wrote:
> Sort of a checkerboard pattern, right?
D> Yup.
I never had the pleasure of reading up cinetheodolite film, thank
heavens, but I've had to get big, high-contrast targets painted onto
test aircraft a time or two.
> I've never like cinetheodolite and now that we've used the laser
> tracking system, I'll never use cinetheodolite again. Period.
> Laser tracking gives you all the data in real time, plotted nicely.
D> Harder to do when you're looking at weapon separation (hard to put
D> a grapefruit on a bomb), high altitude work (in our haze and
D> humidity), or offsite stuff (not many laser trackers on carriers).
D> CPT still has its place, believe it or not.
True, but that place is getting smaller and smaller. This system
works in the haze and humidity of the California Central Valley and
Bay Area, although the range is reduced from its 25-mile maximum, of
course. We were just tracking an F-104 doing lifting-body approaches
around the pattern.
> [...] Max error a foot at 20 miles, half an inch at 2 miles.
Oops, max error 5 ft at 25 nmi, 1 ft at 5 nmi, and about 1 in. at 0.5
nmi. The half inch was at the touchdown point.
D> And eye-safe requirements for any other aircraft in the area - not
D> necessarily trivial if you're looking at a 20 mile laser (!!).
Nope. We're really not so stupid as to go out and use a system that
could blind everyone in the air when we turn it on. Really.
Various interlocks, power attenuations, and other safety features, not
to mention highly-trained operators, keep PATS eye-safe within 3500 ft
and it's eye-safe beyond 3500 ft at full power.
We put our aircrew into special visors, because the desired touchdown
was within 3500 ft and I wasn't willing to take even the slightest
risk of damaging their eyes, no matter what they said about lock-on,
attenuation, etc. However, AFFTC Safety didn't even ask us to issue
the USAF version of a NOTAM. It turned out, we discovered, that the
C-17 folks had been running the same kind of system on the other side of
the runway for at least a year and no one even knew about it, even
though quite a bit of rwy 22 was within 3500 ft of it.
--
Mary Shafer NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA
SR-71 Flying Qualities Lead Engineer Of course I don't speak for NASA
BlackBeard
In article <MillerCC2-170...@140.229.23.137>,
MillerCC2%am6%pax...@mr.nawcad.navy.mil (Chad Miller) wrote:
>
> Just for FYI, the forward section feet of ship #3 was converted into our
> simulation cockpit here. We preserved the blue/gold on gloss paint as
> befits an historical relic. Currently used for F/A-18A and F/A-18C
> simulation work.
> Chad Miller
> Team Leader
> Manned Flight Simulator Facility
> Atlantic Ranges and Facilties
> NAWC-AD, Patuxent River, Maryland
And FYI (so I can jump into the thread ;)
Hornet #1 is here at China Lake. There was an all volunteer effort by
lots of people (Navy and Snivel Servants) to restore this bird. It is
also in the white, with blue & gold paint scheme.
It looks great.
BlackBeard
-. .- -..- --.-
De Profundis
Chris Douglas
That sounds like the plane I was thinking of. I'd come to think it was
just the HARV, but maybe I was right in the first place.
Ken Koller
George Nock (GNOC...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: "J.C." <ea...@crosslink.net> wrote:
: >What about Hornets painted 50% Black, 50% White? :)
: >--
: >J.C.
: >AMS Sufferer
: >Lead Guitar, Taunt
: >FLY NAVY
: i think they are the nasa birds
There was also a F/A-18A BuNo 161925 assigned to the Naval Air Test
Center Strike Aircraft Directorate that was painted half black half white
in an opposing fashion, sort of checkerboard style. The plane was
nicknamed "D'Skunk"
Chris E. Becht
SC Lexicat (scle...@aol.com) wrote:
: In article <4ske11$j...@crl6.crl.com>, cali...@crl.com (Chris E. Becht)
: writes:
: > frex: Vickers paid Krupp a royalty for most every artillary shell
: >fired by the Royal Arty during WWI. The oil fields at Ploesti were owned
: >and operated by Shell and Standard. Standard Oil (Stanavo) had an
: >exclusive contract to supply POL to the Luftwaffe and Whermacht durig
: WWI.
: >--
: And didn't ITT successfully claim damages from the US Government after WW2
: to compensate for losses to ITT Germany whose telecoms systems the German
: war machine ran on?
They filed, and perhaps were compensated/contracted under the Marshal
plan, but the USG can be a hard turnip to bleed.
Copyright and patent in war can be fascinating. A friend's father
collects ACW carbines. Because the CSA accepted all of the covenants of
the US upto 1861, they upheld patent law throughout the war. This, and
the burgeoning breechloader technology, led to many remarkable attempts
to avoid infringements. Made for a mechanically marvelous collection.
LeonardR
In article <4snh1o$l...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, scle...@aol.com (SC
Lexicat) writes:
>> frex: Vickers paid Krupp a royalty for most every artillary shell
>>fired by the Royal Arty during WWI. The oil fields at Ploesti were owned
>>and operated by Shell and Standard. Standard Oil (Stanavo) had an
>>exclusive contract to supply POL to the Luftwaffe and Whermacht durig
>WWI.
>>--
>
>And didn't ITT successfully claim damages from the US Government after
WW2
>to compensate for losses to ITT Germany whose telecoms systems the German
>war machine ran on?
Simon,
If I were to believe the outlandish charges you are making here I would
have to conclude LTV won the contract for the Navy's A-7 Corsair II during
the Vietnam war because it was built in President Johnson's home state of
Texas. Or that President Reagan revived the B-1B so it could be built in
his home state of California. Tell me it is not so, Simon! :)
Todd Enlund
kko...@adnetsol.com (Ken Koller) wrote:
>There was also a F/A-18A BuNo 161925 assigned to the Naval Air Test
>Center Strike Aircraft Directorate that was painted half black half white
>in an opposing fashion, sort of checkerboard style. The plane was
>nicknamed "D'Skunk"
Okay... now that we have established the paint scheme... what were the
F.S. numbers? ;)
Joe Hegedus
In article <this-1807960951080001@edward_teach.chinalake.navy.mil>, th...@reader.makes.me.doThis says...
If I may, I believe that only the first single seater and the first two seater
were painted in the white/blue/gold scheme. The following prototypes were in
a scheme of blue and white (no gold), except for #6, the spin airplane, which
was white and either red or orange. I don't know for sure which, as it was gone
from Pax before I started here in '87. I do, however, recall seeing #3 at Strike
before the Sim guys got it, and it was in the white/blue scheme. I believe it
also had a couple of deer silouettes painted below the cockpit, after hitting
a couple on the runway one evening. (not sure of the details, but the deer markings
stuck in my mind pretty well)
Joe
SC Lexicat
> frex: Vickers paid Krupp a royalty for most every artillary shell
>fired by the Royal Arty during WWI. The oil fields at Ploesti were owned
>and operated by Shell and Standard. Standard Oil (Stanavo) had an
>exclusive contract to supply POL to the Luftwaffe and Whermacht durig
WWI.
>--
And didn't ITT successfully claim damages from the US Government after WW2
to compensate for losses to ITT Germany whose telecoms systems the German
war machine ran on?
Simon Craven
Lexicat Ltd
England
Todd Enlund
heg...@mail.ameritel.net (Joe Hegedus) wrote:
>If I may, I believe that only the first single seater and the first two seater
>were painted in the white/blue/gold scheme.
I'll second that belief.
Ken Koller
For a look at the F/A-18A called D'Skunk, look at apge 27 of the Aerofax
Minigraph book F/A-18. It's a color photo to boot. Also, there was a an
1/48th scale kit of it a few years back under the "Yeager's Fighters" or
something like that, series. Believe it was Monogram.
Joe Hegedus
In article <4so7q5$p...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, ten...@ix.netcom.com says...
>
>kko...@adnetsol.com (Ken Koller) wrote:
>
>
>>There was also a F/A-18A BuNo 161925 assigned to the Naval Air Test
>>Center Strike Aircraft Directorate that was painted half black half white
>>in an opposing fashion, sort of checkerboard style. The plane was
>>nicknamed "D'Skunk"
>
> Okay... now that we have established the paint scheme... what were the
>F.S. numbers? ;)
>
>
>"Bandits at 3 O'clock"
>"Roger. What should I do 'till then?"
>
mechanic here at Pax do some touch-up paint work on the V-22 after doing some
composite skin repair. He was touching up the "International Orange" on the
elevator and was using a spray can of....
(drum roll, please)
Rust-O-leum: Allis Chalmers Orange!
Joe
Crossords
In article <4song1$7...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, leon...@aol.com (LeonardR)
writes:
> Tell me it is not so, Simon! :)
>
>
It's not so, Simon! (Just couldn't control my fingers!. Ve cannot allow a
mindschaff gap! . . . # # #)
Sarge :{)))>
Todd Enlund
heg...@mail.ameritel.net (Joe Hegedus) wrote:
>> Okay... now that we have established the paint scheme... what were the
>>F.S. numbers? ;)
>
>Don't put too much faith in FS numbers. About a year or so ago, I watched a
>mechanic here at Pax do some touch-up paint work on the V-22 after doing some
>composite skin repair. He was touching up the "International Orange" on the
>elevator and was using a spray can of....
>Rust-O-leum: Allis Chalmers Orange!
I guess if I have to explain it, it wasn't a very good attempt at a
joke... I personally can't figure out why people want to equate a FS
number with RLM 65, for example... FS numbers are not that specific.
For a given reflectivity, there could be thousands of varying hues.
BTW, we touch up our F-15s with a brand of spray paint that Wal-Mart
would be ashamed to sell... and the fresh spray paint rarely matches
the weathered aircraft
Todd Enlund
F-15 Weapons, LA Air Guard
Chad Miller
> In article <MillerCC2-170...@140.229.23.137>,
> MillerCC2%am6%pax...@mr.nawcad.navy.mil (Chad Miller) wrote:
>
> >
> > Just for FYI, the forward section feet of ship #3 was converted into our
> > simulation cockpit here. We preserved the blue/gold on gloss paint as
> > befits an historical relic. Currently used for F/A-18A and F/A-18C
> > simulation work.
> >
>
> Hornet #1 is here at China Lake. There was an all volunteer effort by
> lots of people (Navy and Snivel Servants) to restore this bird. It is
> also in the white, with blue & gold paint scheme.
>
> It looks great.
>
> BlackBeard
> -. .- -..- --.-
> De Profundis
Thats' good info, now when one of those darn EMD parts break I have a
source... :)..are the DDIs installed? Where exactly is the aircraft at
the Lake? (grin), What are visting hours? Security? (double grin)
Also, it's interesting to note the reaction of pilots to our re-use of
the aircraft, opinion is split over wheither it's a proud monument to the
aircraft, glad it lives on in service, etc, OR damn sim weanies, it's
blasphemous to pervert a proud relic etc., etc.
Glad to hear #1 is in good hands.
Damn Sim Weanie
Chad Miller
Team Leader
Manned Flight Simulator Facility
Atlantic Ranges and Facilties
NAWC-AD, Patuxent River, Maryland
---------------------------------------------------------------------
american...@net-star.net
David:
While doing photo shoots on occasion at Miramar, I have seen a few
Hornets with false canopies painted underneath. Sorry, I don't remember
the squadron the aircraft was attached with, but next time I go down
there I'll make note of it. BTW, some years back there was some
experimentation with false canopies painted on the A-10, but that too
was soon dropped as much more advanced optical camouflage became viable.
Kevin
Jens Håkon Brandal
scle...@aol.com (SC Lexicat) wrote:
snip
>And didn't ITT successfully claim damages from the US Government after WW2
>to compensate for losses to ITT Germany whose telecoms systems the German
>war machine ran on?
>
>Simon Craven
>Lexicat Ltd
>England
Just before the outbreak of WW2, Norway decided to buy a handful of Heinkel He115's for maritime
patrol duties, but Germany invaded Norway before all aircraft were delivered. Although the Government
that took power was friendly to the Germans (to say the least) , we demanded a refund for the aircraft we
had paid for but not received, and the Germans gave us the money back.
Jens
David Lednicer
> Chris Douglas (cdou...@origin.ea.com) wrote:
> : I doubt the idea of painting a false canopy can be copyrighted. Many
> : U.S.
> : F/A-18's have flown with false canopies, including many in Desert Storm.
>
> : British Jaguars carried false canopies as well.
OK, you provided the kick in the butt, so I went and found where
I had read this. Aerospace America, July 1987, page 14 says:
"Success of the false canopy led to its adoption by the Canadians
on their CF-18 fighters. The [US] Navy did not do likewise, says
Hornick, because the advantage wore off after repeated exposure as
"pilots learned to pick up other cues." And the Navy did not want to
foot a license fee the Canadians thought worthwhile."
-------------------------------------------------------------------
David Lednicer | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics"
Analytical Methods, Inc. | email: da...@amiwest.com
2133 152nd Ave NE | tel: (206) 643-9090
Redmond, WA 98052 USA | fax: (206) 746-1299
John Goscinski
As late as last fall I saw an A-10 at the Cecil Field airshow in the "new"
medium grey paint. It had a false canopy painted on.
John
Tarver Engineering
>> In article <MillerCC2-170...@140.229.23.137>,
>> MillerCC2%am6%pax...@mr.nawcad.navy.mil (Chad Miller) wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Just for FYI, the forward section feet of ship #3 was converted into our
>> > simulation cockpit here. We preserved the blue/gold on gloss paint as
>> > befits an historical relic. Currently used for F/A-18A and F/A-18C
>> > simulation work.
>> >
>> And FYI (so I can jump into the thread ;)
>>
>> Hornet #1 is here at China Lake. There was an all volunteer effort by
>> lots of people (Navy and Snivel Servants) to restore this bird. It is
>> also in the white, with blue & gold paint scheme.
>>
>> It looks great.
>>
>> BlackBeard
>> -. .- -..- --.-
>> De Profundis
>
> Thats' good info, now when one of those darn EMD parts break I have a
>source... :)..are the DDIs installed? Where exactly is the aircraft at
>the Lake? (grin), What are visting hours? Security? (double grin)
The instrument panel and connectors are NASA Dryden's Hornet
simulator. I had them cut out myself, in the mid 80s.
> Also, it's interesting to note the reaction of pilots to our re-use of
>the aircraft, opinion is split over wheither it's a proud monument to the
>aircraft, glad it lives on in service, etc, OR damn sim weanies, it's
>blasphemous to pervert a proud relic etc., etc.
Get a saw.
John P. Tarver, PE
>Glad to hear #1 is in good hands.
Me too.
Marc Studer
I don't know if they still do, but the Canadian AF's CF-18's carry a false canopy paint job. I
believe that the false canopy was also considered here in the US but was rejected for safty reasons such
as pilots in formation becoming confused about the posistion and attitude of such camoflauged(SP)
aircraft.
John Goscinski (gosc...@escmail.orl.mmc.com) wrote:
: John
--
___________ Marc Studer ___________________________________________
"Life is a fair approximation of reality." - Jacques Portman
"Two plus two equals Duh." - Jacques Portman
______________________________________ mst...@spu.edu ___________
ArteeDeco
>>I believe that the false canopy was also considered here
>>in the US but was rejected for safty reasons such
Well,
I do know that several A-10s in service right now have this
false canopy painted on them. I wonder if anyone out there
can explain the purpose of the false canopy?
Thanks.
Arte...@aol.com
"There are alot of fine women out there in the world,
but not all of them will bring you Lasagna at work."
--Silent Bob
Chris Douglas
David Lednicer wrote:
>
> > Chris Douglas (cdou...@origin.ea.com) wrote:
> > : I doubt the idea of painting a false canopy can be copyrighted. Many
> > : U.S.
> > : F/A-18's have flown with false canopies, including many in Desert Storm.
> >
> > : British Jaguars carried false canopies as well.
>
> OK, you provided the kick in the butt, so I went and found where
> I had read this. Aerospace America, July 1987, page 14 says:
>
> "Success of the false canopy led to its adoption by the Canadians
> on their CF-18 fighters. The [US] Navy did not do likewise, says
> Hornick, because the advantage wore off after repeated exposure as
> "pilots learned to pick up other cues." And the Navy did not want to
> foot a license fee the Canadians thought worthwhile."
>
Nevertheless, many USN (and USMC) F/A-18's bore false canopies during
Desert Storm. Photo referrence is readily found in WAPJ's Gulf Air War
Debrief and other DS-related photographic referrence books.
Ken Koller
Marc Studer (mst...@paul.spu.edu) wrote:
: I don't know if they still do, but the Canadian AF's CF-18's carry a false canopy paint job. I
: believe that the false canopy was also considered here in the US but was rejected for safty reasons such
: as pilots in formation becoming confused about the posistion and attitude of such camoflauged(SP)
: aircraft.
They still do. Many U.S. Navy Agressor F-18s also have the false
canopy painted on the underside, but I haven't seen them on fleet F-18s.
Scott Van Aken
I also saw two very clean A-10s (that is also an oxymoron) at the Scott AFB
show last month with false canopys. I believe they are cool for the attack
guys as they do very little ACM where the confusion factor is very large and
the possiblilty of mid-airs is more pronounced.
Scott
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And now..back to reality, which is already in progress
Firesign Theater
Chris Douglas
ArteeDeco wrote:
>
> >>I believe that the false canopy was also considered here
> >>in the US but was rejected for safty reasons such
>
>
> I do know that several A-10s in service right now have this
> false canopy painted on them. I wonder if anyone out there
> can explain the purpose of the false canopy?
>
> Thanks.
>
It's to confuse opponents as to the attitude of your aircraft. They
can't tell if you're breaking into or away from them.
The problem as I understand it is that the scheme tends to have the same
effect on one's own wingman, which can be a bad thing, particularly
during peacetime. I suspect this is why you saw false canopies popping
up on F/A-18's during the Gulf War, but not often either before or
after. When there isn't an actual opponent to confuse, you're just
making things riskier for yourself and your squadron mates. But I'm
speculating on that last point.
José Herculano
>You might not want to belly up to the bar just yet. I flew off the Midway
>(CV-41) during the Gulf War, and I'm *almost* positive that at least one
>of the 3 Hornet squadrons on board had some jets with canopies painted
>over the nose gear area. I suggest you take a closer look at some of
>those photos. Sorry dude.
Going to check it carefully. Of course your word is not being disputed.
Latter, aligator,
Jose
Ken Koller
Chris Douglas (cdou...@origin.ea.com) wrote:
: Nevertheless, many USN (and USMC) F/A-18's bore false canopies during :
Desert Storm. Photo referrence is readily found in WAPJ's Gulf Air War :
Debrief and other DS-related photographic referrence books.
Curious. Do you happen to know which sqaudrons those F/A-18s were assigned
to? I'd like to check those out myself.
Alexander McClearn at TUNS
On 26 Jul 1996, Jos=E9 Herculano wrote:
> >Nevertheless, many USN (and USMC) F/A-18's bore false canopies during
> >Desert Storm. Photo referrence is readily found in WAPJ's Gulf Air War
> >Debrief and other DS-related photographic referrence books.
>=20
> Gotcha. Beers are owed. Those are Canadian birds (they had a
> squadron there, remember?). Check the book again.
While I can't say about the USN birds (I've heard that the USN reportedly=
=20
thinks the false canopy is stupid) I have seen a picture of a USMC Hornet=
=20
with the false canopy. So they would not necessarily be Canuck Hornets.
<Sandy McClearn> ) _ Military WWW List, Canadian Navy Page =20
WWW -- T_|_|__! http://www.tuns.ca/~mccleaae/
E-mail -- [/] mccl...@newton.ccs.tuns.ca ____.____ %
-) [\] | ...__ | _ c[@@]O=3D+/
__O_|_| \_ | [### \ |-$_______8__ " `
[*|*| \___ -_|-[ __\ | |____|_/ ]
|\........-@.....[........|.|.].[....|.|H|..|........]............____|
\~ 330 |
\ /
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Engineering -- Technical University of Nova Scotia -- Halifax, NS, Canada
José Herculano
>I do know that several A-10s in service right now have this
>false canopy painted on them. I wonder if anyone out there
>can explain the purpose of the false canopy?
It is intendeed, in a furball dogfight, to confuse the enemy
in the flight attitude of the aircraft so painted. It has, in
USN and USMC view, a greater liability (safety in training
engagements) than asset (confusing the enemy).
Jose
Middletonk
I'm coming into this one late, but I know for a fact that VMFA-451, a
Marine unit, not operating from carriers, had the false canopy underneath.
I've seen photos and videos proving this.
Ken Middleton
Brian >
José Herculano wrote:
> Gotcha. Beers are owed. Those are Canadian birds (they had a
> squadron there, remember?). Check the book again.
>
You might not want to belly up to the bar just yet. I flew off the Midway
(CV-41) during the Gulf War, and I'm *almost* positive that at least one
of the 3 Hornet squadrons on board had some jets with canopies painted
over the nose gear area. I suggest you take a closer look at some of
those photos. Sorry dude.
--
Brian "Whiz" Whisenant. Ann Arbor, MI
*********************************************************************
* The opinions expressed herein are mine alone, and do not represent* *
* those of the Ford Motor Company, the US Government, God, or anyone* *
* else. Does that about cover it? ************************************
**********************************
José Herculano
>I'm coming into this one late, but I know for a fact that VMFA-451, a
>Marine unit, not operating from carriers, had the false canopy underneath.
>I've seen photos and videos proving this.
The scheme was indeed evaluated, but as far as I know, failed
to survive in fleet use.
Jose
José Herculano
>Nevertheless, many USN (and USMC) F/A-18's bore false canopies during
>Desert Storm. Photo referrence is readily found in WAPJ's Gulf Air War
>Debrief and other DS-related photographic referrence books.
Gotcha. Beers are owed. Those are Canadian birds (they had a
J.C.
Last year at Oceana I saw one Hornet painted with the false
canopy underneath, so there. BTW- I can't be at the NATIONALS!
I'm on f***ing alert at Oceana because of that ********
airline hi-jacking today.. somebody pick me up an AFV or so.
--
J.C.
FLY NAVY
I am the walrus
************************************
*Macross-SailorMoon-AhMyGoddess-BGC*
*A.D.Police-MacrossPlus-MacrossII- *
*Evangalion-GhostIntheShell-GUNDAM-*
*Guyver-The Anime Comes- Oasis-Bush*
*SmashingPumpkins-Hail Rock!!!!!!!!*
************************************
Middletonk
Jose,
I'm not sure if the discussion was for the Gulf War, like I said I'm
coming into this one late. But I have a video of the War that shows the
VMFA-451 Hornets taxiing in the desert during the war with HARMs, for a
sortie with the false canopy. It looked like all the birds had this canopy
scheme.
Ken Middleton
Ken Koller
Brian > ("<ford!bwhisena"@gtwy.ford.com) wrote:
: José Herculano wrote:
: > Gotcha. Beers are owed. Those are Canadian birds (they had a
: > squadron there, remember?). Check the book again.
: >
: > Jose
: You might not want to belly up to the bar just yet. I flew off the Midway
: (CV-41) during the Gulf War, and I'm *almost* positive that at least one
: of the 3 Hornet squadrons on board had some jets with canopies painted
: over the nose gear area. I suggest you take a closer look at some of
: those photos. Sorry dude.
Did a little checking. Found a photo of a US Marines F/A-18D on the
tarmac in Saudi with a fake canopy painted underneath.
terence
Have visited the CAF website page (go to Yahoo) and the images there sow
that the false canopy is still painted on. Very nice website, I must
say, and I got the pointer from this newsgroup.
José Herculano
>Last year at Oceana I saw one Hornet painted with the false
>canopy underneath, so there. BTW- I can't be at the NATIONALS!
Some agressor birds indeed have that "canopy", but, as far as I
know, no fleet birds do.
Jose
José Herculano
>with the false canopy. So they would not necessarily be Canuck Hornets.
On the quoted book they *are* necessarely Canuck... I've checked it
thoroughly yesterday ;-)
The Marines indeed made some experiments with it, but dropped it soon,
if not for the fact that they *have* a common cammo with the Navy.
Jose
Steve Sauve
herc...@mail.telepac.pt (José Herculano) wrote:
>>You might not want to belly up to the bar just yet. I flew off the Midway
>>(CV-41) during the Gulf War, and I'm *almost* positive that at least one
>>of the 3 Hornet squadrons on board had some jets with canopies painted
>>over the nose gear area. I suggest you take a closer look at some of
>>those photos. Sorry dude.
>Going to check it carefully. Of course your word is not being disputed.
>Latter, aligator,
>Jose
Steve Says:
At one of the recent London Airshows, there was definitely a USN F-18
in attendance (from VFA-81?) with the false canopy painted on it.
Apparently, this was inspired by a Canadian Forces exchange pilot on
strength with the squadron at the time.
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view), I've
started packing up some of my photo stuff to pre-prepare for a move to
CFB Cold Lake in a month, so I can't really say for sure which LIAS it
was and the unit the aircraft was from.
Cheers,
Steve Sauve
C-323
IPMS Ottawa, Canada
To reach IPMS Canada, or for information on local chapters or joining, contact
bd...@freenet.carleton.ca
or ... snail-mail to:
IPMS Canada
P.O. Box 626, Station B
Ottawa, Ontario
Canada
K1P 5P7
Scott Van Aken
The Marines just did that to win beer bets!
NFiler
Both VMFA(AW)225 "Vagabonds" and VMFA(AW)242 "Batmen" at least originally
incorporated the fake underside canopy in their F-18D paint schemes.
242's was quite angular and mostly straight lines, while 225 more closely
followed the canadian pattern. Both squadrons were at the Whidbey Island
NAS in '94 and when I inquired, the 225 exec said they were looking for
any edge they could get and that when the went to a Maple Leaf exercise at
Cold Lake and saw the Canadian F-18s with the fake canopy both squadrons
decided to try it.
Do not know it it lasted or not. Am a little far from the action of east
coast Jarheads to keep tabs.
Gerry Parker
terence <tere...@edb.gov.sg> wrote:
The false canopy is standard on all CF 18s and from what I have been
told it will continue. Another variant on Canadian F-18s is the search
light on the port side.
Gerry
EugeneK4
In article <31F996...@crosslink.net>, "J.C." <ea...@crosslink.net>
writes:
>
>Last year at Oceana I saw one Hornet painted with the false
>canopy underneath, so there. BTW- I can't be at the NATIONALS!
>I'm on f***ing alert at Oceana because of that ********
>airline hi-jacking today.. somebody pick me up an AFV or so.
>--
>J.C.
>FLY NAVY
>I am the walrus
OK - I give up - what kind of alert???
Gene K
Chris Douglas
José Herculano wrote:
>
> >Nevertheless, many USN (and USMC) F/A-18's bore false canopies during
> >Desert Storm. Photo referrence is readily found in WAPJ's Gulf Air War
> >Debrief and other DS-related photographic referrence books.
>
> squadron there, remember?). Check the book again.
>
> Jose
No, USN, USMC, and Canadian. But I'll go through my stuff again and get
back with specifics.
Chris Douglas
I did some poking through referrence last night, and a false-canopied
VMFA-451 bird (an F/A-18A) was the only shot I came up with. I'm almost
certain that some USN F/A-18C's bore false canopies in the war as well,
but pictures are proving elusive. I still think I can find them (I swear
I remember seeing them). Until then, consider at an open question.
In the meantime, I also seem to recall seeing shots of an F-14 bearing a
false canopy. I'm pretty sure this was in an issue of the Japanese
magazine Koku Fan, so I'll flip through my collection sometime and see
if I can find it again. I think this would have been post-DS. Does
this ring any bells with anyone?
Steve Collins
Chris Douglas <cdou...@origin.ea.com> wrote:
>In the meantime, I also seem to recall seeing shots of an F-14 bearing a
>false canopy. I'm pretty sure this was in an issue of the Japanese
>magazine Koku Fan, so I'll flip through my collection sometime and see
>if I can find it again. I think this would have been post-DS. Does
>this ring any bells with anyone?
If my admittedly failing memory serves, some of the Ferris schemes the
navy experimented with had false canopies on the bottom. I'll check
and get back.
Steve.
Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big
bites. Moderation is for monks.
The Notebooks of Lazarus Long
Richard Loosemore
In message <4tcr9o$3...@duke.telepac.pt> - herc...@mail.telepac.pt (José
Herculano)27 Jul 1996 10:33:28 GMT writes:
:>
:>
:>>Last year at Oceana I saw one Hornet painted with the false
:>>canopy underneath, so there. BTW- I can't be at the NATIONALS!
:>Some agressor birds indeed have that "canopy", but, as far as I
:>know, no fleet birds do.
:>
:>Jose
The Canadian Forces uses the false canopy scheme on all it's CF-18's. I read
that the US doesn't typically use the paint scheme during peace-time, as it is
considered a flight safety risk.
jknaus
In article <4tpfeh$p...@hermes.oanet.com>, rich...@oanet.com says...
an American experimental thing in disruptive colours. Its not much of a flight safety concern
really..it just gives you the extra sec or 2 in a knife fight. The other pilot needs a bit more
time to overcome the initial thought of where is the aircraft really going. Turning into me or
away. I think either Australia or Switzerland has it also.???
--
Improvise, Adapt, Overcome....but if it aint broke DONT FIX IT! :)
Brian Grinter
Brian <"<ford!bwhisena"@gtwy.ford.com>> wrote:
>José Herculano wrote:
>> Gotcha. Beers are owed. Those are Canadian birds (they had a
>> squadron there, remember?). Check the book again.
>>
>> Jose
>You might not want to belly up to the bar just yet. I flew off the Midway
>(CV-41) during the Gulf War, and I'm *almost* positive that at least one
>of the 3 Hornet squadrons on board had some jets with canopies painted
>over the nose gear area. I suggest you take a closer look at some of
>those photos. Sorry dude.
Coupla years ago, a US carrier visited Sydney and I had a look around
on the open day. The Hornets had false canopies painted underneath,
and I asked a pilot about that. I read once some gung-ho USN pilot
state the painted canopy (which only Canada had at the time) was
useless as by the time someone was close enough to notice it, you'd be
dead anyway...
Brian Grinter
Sydney, Australia
bgri...@wisenet.net.au
ph 61 2 6228970
Brian Grinter
herc...@mail.telepac.pt (José Herculano) wrote:
>>Last year at Oceana I saw one Hornet painted with the false
>>canopy underneath, so there. BTW- I can't be at the NATIONALS!
>Some agressor birds indeed have that "canopy", but, as far as I
>know, no fleet birds do.
Saw one in Sydney on a 'flag-waving' tour by a US carrier. Got a photo
(although no scanner to post it)
Darrell Loosemore
jkn...@jetnet.ab.ca (jknaus) wrote:
>In article <4tpfeh$p...@hermes.oanet.com>, rich...@oanet.com says...
>>
>>In message <4tcr9o$3...@duke.telepac.pt> - herc...@mail.telepac.pt (José
>>Herculano)27 Jul 1996 10:33:28 GMT writes:
>>:>
>>:>
>>:>
>>:>Some agressor birds indeed have that "canopy", but, as far as I
>>:>know, no fleet birds do.
>>:>Jose
>>:>
>>
>>The Canadian Forces uses the false canopy scheme on all it's CF-18's. I read
>>that the US doesn't typically use the paint scheme during peace-time, as it is
>>considered a flight safety risk.
>>
>Yes all of our Canadian f18s do have the false canopy. Also our old F5s did as well. It came from
>an American experimental thing in disruptive colours. Its not much of a flight safety concern
>really..it just gives you the extra sec or 2 in a knife fight. The other pilot needs a bit more
>time to overcome the initial thought of where is the aircraft really going. Turning into me or
>away. I think either Australia or Switzerland has it also.???
>
>--
>Improvise, Adapt, Overcome....but if it aint broke DONT FIX IT! :)
>
I've noticed at various airshows that the false canopy does
work quite well as a deceptive measure. The one thing that
really distracts from this effect is that CF-188s almost
always have a centerline tank mounted. Until they start
putting these on top of the Hornet it's going to be harder to
fool enemy pilots:)
John Bergsing
VMFA-541 was decommissioned.
L. Katchur
In article <4ts9eo$d...@mippet.ci.com.au>, bgri...@wisenet.net.au says...
>
>herc...@mail.telepac.pt (José Herculano) wrote:
>
>
>>>Last year at Oceana I saw one Hornet painted with the false
>>>canopy underneath, so there. BTW- I can't be at the NATIONALS!
>
>>Some agressor birds indeed have that "canopy", but, as far as I
>>know, no fleet birds do.
>
photo
>(although no scanner to post it)
I've got a picture in a Hornet book showing a US Marines F/A-18A from
VMFA-541 'Warlords' with a false canopy painted on it. I don't know how
old this picture is or even if the 'Warlords' still exist, but in the
picture you can easily see the painted on canopy.
*****************************************
Lyle W. Katchur - lkat...@ccinet.ab.ca
*****************************************
Sue Thing
In article <4tu423$7...@nntp.igs.net> Darrell Loosemore <dloos...@igs.net> writes:
.
>jkn...@jetnet.ab.ca (jknaus) wrote:
>>In article <4tpfeh$p...@hermes.oanet.com>, rich...@oanet.com says...
>>>
>>>In message <4tcr9o$3...@duke.telepac.pt> - herc...@mail.telepac.pt (José
>>>Herculano)27 Jul 1996 10:33:28 GMT writes:
>>>:>
>>>:>
>>>:>
>>>:>Some agressor birds indeed have that "canopy", but, as far as I
>>>:>know, no fleet birds do.
>>>:>Jose
>>>:>
>>>
>>>The Canadian Forces uses the false canopy scheme on all it's CF-18's. I read
>>>that the US doesn't typically use the paint scheme during peace-time, as it is
>>>considered a flight safety risk.
>>>
>>Yes all of our Canadian f18s do have the false canopy. Also our old F5s did as well. It came from
>>an American experimental thing in disruptive colours. Its not much of a flight safety concern
>>really..it just gives you the extra sec or 2 in a knife fight. The other pilot needs a bit more
>>time to overcome the initial thought of where is the aircraft really going. Turning into me or
>>away. I think either Australia or Switzerland has it also.???
>>
>>--
>>Improvise, Adapt, Overcome....but if it aint broke DONT FIX IT! :)
>>
>I've noticed at various airshows that the false canopy does
>work quite well as a deceptive measure. The one thing that
>really distracts from this effect is that CF-188s almost
>always have a centerline tank mounted. Until they start
>putting these on top of the Hornet it's going to be harder to
>fool enemy pilots:)
The A-10 Warthog also has a false canopy paint scheme.
Sue
Todd Enlund
bgri...@wisenet.net.au (Brian Grinter) wrote:
>I read once some gung-ho USN pilot
>state the painted canopy (which only Canada had at the time) was
>useless as by the time someone was close enough to notice it, you'd be
>dead anyway...
Nothing like a fighter pilot with confidence in his abilities, eh?
Todd Enlund
"Bandits at 3 O'clock"
"Roger. What should I do 'till then?"