Russian WW2 colors- aircraft
mbit...@juno.com
No, no, no, no, no.
Although I never get out to r.m.s., and I probably will never again, I
had to clear up this misinformation about the colors of VVS cockpits.
They were *not* grey. They were a medium blue-green primer, FS(2)5622.
For reference, I point you to the site:
http://www.oz.net/~xopowo/VVS/vvs.htm
Everybody please stop painting your VVS cockpits RLM 02.
As I said, I will not be back on r.m.s., so any discussion please email
me at mbit...@juno.com.
Matt Bittner
IPMS #9440
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Gene K
On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:21:12 -0600, mbit...@juno.com wrote:
>As I said, I will not be back on r.m.s., so any discussion please email
>me at mbit...@juno.com.
Is it something we said???
Gene K
PSC
mbit...@juno.com wrote:
>
> No, no, no, no, no.
>
> Although I never get out to r.m.s., and I probably will never again, I
> had to clear up this misinformation about the colors of VVS cockpits.
>
> They were *not* grey. They were a medium blue-green primer, FS(2)5622.
>
> For reference, I point you to the site:
>
> http://www.oz.net/~xopowo/VVS/vvs.htm
>
> Everybody please stop painting your VVS cockpits RLM 02.
>
> IPMS #9440
>
> -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Interesting site. Some of the color info differs from original color
chips (FS 34151/34102 for the olive green and FS35190 for the underside
blue) recently examined in Moscow by a correspondant of Accurate
Miniatures. Bill Bosworth and I would be interested in your source for
the interior colors - he has some pretty convincing evidence for a color
similar to RLM02, at least on some IL-2's. Anything new and confirmable
from original documents (w. chips) or unrestored relics would be
welcome.
Pete Chalmers
Kari A Lumppio
>mbit...@juno.com wrote:
^^^^^^^^^
>> Although I never get out to r.m.s., and I probably will never again, I
>> had to clear up this misinformation about the colors of VVS cockpits.
>> They were *not* grey. They were a medium blue-green primer, FS(2)5622.
>> For reference, I point you to the site:
>> http://www.oz.net/~xopowo/VVS/vvs.htm
>> Everybody please stop painting your VVS cockpits RLM 02.
This confuses me a lot. To my eyes FS (2)5622 is light blue, Humbrol gives
it as No 122 for Israeli AF underside color. People interpret colors
differently it seems.
>Interesting site. Some of the color info differs from original color
>chips (FS 34151/34102 for the olive green and FS35190 for the underside
>blue) recently examined in Moscow by a correspondant of Accurate
>Miniatures. Bill Bosworth and I would be interested in your source for
>the interior colors - he has some pretty convincing evidence for a color
>similar to RLM02, at least on some IL-2's. Anything new and confirmable
>from original documents (w. chips) or unrestored relics would be
>welcome.
>
>Pete Chalmers
I agree with Pete here. The site is very interesting and informative. There is
few things that confuse me, though. Last fall two guys from our local IPMS-club
gave a lecture (what's the correct term here, IPMS is not a school) about VVS
colors based on the book Pete mentions. (It's the handbook for russian chemical
industry and contains color chips for variety of military colors, yeah?)
Few of the things which conflict with the VVS-modeller homepage information:
* One of most important (if not the most important) early VVS colors was
aluminum laquer. For example vast majority of russian bombers and many fighters
in Finno-Russian war (Talvisota) 1939-1940 were painted as such. VVS homepage
doesn't mention aluminium color even a single time !?
* The color chip book *doesn't* have black-green sample. VVS homepage gives
it as a part of typical camo scheme.
* I don't believe that russians ever used yellow bordered stars. My *opinion*
is based on two facts:
- First, yellow was common identification color for all air forces fighting
russians on eastern front (be it Finnish, German, Italian, Romanian or
Hungarian). Especially Finnish fighters and German ground attack planes
(Hs 129) were liberally applied with yellow color. It would be foolish to
use such color and risk friendly fire.
- Second. The color chip book has exactly three markings colors: red, white and
aluminium (silver). The book has not a single yellow color which is meant for
outdoor usage. Closest to yellow would be the primer introduced sometime
1939 (ALG-9 or something, it's introduction is said to be connected with Li-2
licence production). There is at least one documented case of yellow number
(a P-40 wreck) though.
I'm trying to be objective here. I hope we will learn the truth (or even the
trendline of it) about VVS colours someday. I believe that all the information
exists, somebody just should compile it between covers.
Kari Lumppio, Finland
PSC
Kari A Lumppio wrote:
>
> This confuses me a lot. To my eyes FS (2)5622 is light blue, Humbrol gives
> it as No 122 for Israeli AF underside color. People interpret colors
> differently it seems.
The Il-2 interior colors were sampled from an absolute pristine
protected and original interior section. RLM02 (about FS 36165) or about
FS 34226 are only approximations - some of the samples seem a bit more
light olive in tone. I think that the FS 36320 is supportable based on
samples from TU-2's, amoung others, as another usual interior color.
>
> * The color chip book *doesn't* have black-green sample. VVS homepage gives
> it as a part of typical camo scheme.
Certainly, black green is not found in the 1943 color instructions - but
there seems to be enough noise about this color to possibly support it
as a pre-43 color - but no hard evidence. Some authors have speculated
on the Germans having supplied aviation paints to the Soviets between
Sep. 39 and Jun. 41 which may have included RLM70 and RLM02 - which
might explain some of these colors - but I've never seen this
corroborated.
The intensity and depth of the underside blue was surprising - but there
appears to be evidence beyond the color chips. The Polish museum TU-2
appears to be in original colors and the blue is BRIGHT - but the color
chip confirms a color very similar. FS 25466 is certainly in the zone
for a lightened version of the color, as is the Polly Scale FS 35200.
Replic magazine did an article a while back on the Caudron 714 preserved
in Finland - and in one pic in the background of the warehouse was a VVS
relic - what appeared to be a piece of LaGG-3 fuselage (??) in black or
black-green, olive green, and blue, complete with black-outlined red
star. Can you comment on this??
I take particular interest because I'm currently working with Bill
Bosworth on the colors for the upcoming Yak-1 kit, and we want to get it
as right as we can. The 1943 upper greys are particularly enigmatic -
but FS 26493 and FS 26320 seem too light when compared with the
confirmed underside blue. FS 36118 / FS 36187 (or) FS 36187 / FS 36270
have been posited as possible pairs. We have most of what has been
published on the subject - and I'm open to this article/book adding to
it - but relic or chip evidence is really the only true test - all else
is speculation.
Pete Chalmers
Anders Svennevik
> had to clear up this misinformation about the colors of VVS cockpits.
>
> They were *not* grey. They were a medium blue-green primer, FS(2)5622.
>
> For reference, I point you to the site:
>
> http://www.oz.net/~xopowo/VVS/vvs.htm
>
> Everybody please stop painting your VVS cockpits RLM 02.
>
I sincerely doubt that Soviet paints were the exact same colour from
1939 to 1945, and the exact same shade on every one of the 30,000+
Il-2s, and
tens of thousands of Yaks and Las.
If the 'primer' was indeed a primer, then its chemical properties were
much
more important than its colour.
I was under the impression that there was a strong case for both silver
and
light or medium grey cockpits.
Finally - be very wary of FS numbers for non-US colours. They are rarely
spot-on. A Munsell/Methuen/NCS notation is much more helpful.
Anders
PSC
Anders Svennevik wrote:
>
> mbit...@juno.com wrote:
> > Although I never get out to r.m.s., and I probably will never again,
He must be on that comet we all remember so well!
> This seems like a very categorical statement.
I would agree !
>
> I sincerely doubt that Soviet paints were the exact same colour from
> 1939 to 1945, and the exact same shade on every one of the 30,000+
> Il-2s, and
> tens of thousands of Yaks and Las.
Absolutely - but you have to start somewhere.
>
> If the 'primer' was indeed a primer, then its chemical properties were
> much
> more important than its colour.
>
> I was under the impression that there was a strong case for both silver
> and
> light or medium grey cockpits.
I don't know about silver (perhaps pre-war), but relic aircraft and
pieces from the era show two "possible" colors:
1. A light grey-green "about" FS 34226 ( which could be construed as
somewhere in between RLM02 and RAF interior green.) Variants of this
color appear on IL-2's. Tends to an "olivy" appearance.
2. A medium grey "about" FS 36231 / 36320. Tu-2 and Yaks.
>
> Finally - be very wary of FS numbers for non-US colours. They are rarely
> spot-on.
True, but FS595 is the most readily available "Dictionary" of colors -
sort of an abridged dictionary at that. Most U.S. modellers have one
after a while. Close is OK for now with VVS colors - but FS 25622 is way
lighter than any sample I've seen or even heard of for VVS interiors.
A Munsell/Methuen/NCS notation is much more helpful.
Can't argue - but few modellers have either.
>
> Anders
I think the web page may be very useful as an adjunct - any discussion
or research on the colors is welcome. I do find it humorous that the
webpage starts out with an admonition about dogmatism - and then
split-esses right into it.
Pete Chalmers