F-104 Wing Color Question
Al Superczynski
>The instructions for Hasegawa's 1/48 F-104C indicate that the
>underneath of the wings are painted Aircraft Gray. Is this correct?
Yes - confirmed by former 104 drivers on the Century Series
mailing list at eGroups.
Al Superczynski, MFE
IPMS/USA #3795, continuous since 1968
Check out my want and disposal lists at "Al's Place":
http://www.up-link.net/~modeleral
"Build what YOU like, the way YOU want to,
and the critics will flame you every time."
ELars...@gateway.net
thought the wings were white, top and bottom.
TIA
--
Eric
"He who guards his lips guards his life, but he
who speaks rashly will come to ruin."
- Proverbs 13:3
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jrdme109
Why were the wings white in the first place? Any body know? - JD
Don Harstad
in order to ensure absolutely smooth airflow. It explained the glossy
paint, at least, but he never addressed the color. This was, however, after
more than one beer.... Made sense at the time. : ) He was also the first
one to point out to me that the underside of the wings were gray.
I, of course, was barely out of the cradle at the time.
Don H.
"Jrdme109" <jrdm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001109112955...@ng-ce1.aol.com...
LeadSled58
>underneath of the wings are painted Aircraft Gray. Is this correct? I
>thought the wings were white, top and bottom.
Eric,
For what it is worth, I think there is some disagreement on this. I have seen
several active 104s and even have a picture or two with the wings white on the
bottom. I think it may have been up to the interpretation of the paint shop at
some point. But yes, some 104s did have white bottomed wings.
HTH
Tom
Curtis J.
Don Harstad wrote:
> A Lockheed guy told me, back in about 67 or 68, that they had been painted
> in order to ensure absolutely smooth airflow. It explained the glossy
> paint, at least, but he never addressed the color. This was, however, after
> more than one beer.... Made sense at the time. : ) He was also the first
> one to point out to me that the underside of the wings were gray.
Didn't P-51 Mustangs had silver-painted wings to maximize the laminar flow over
their wings? I've read that in numerous sources. It certainly makes sense
that the engineers at Lockeed would have gone to the extra step of cleaning up
the airflow over the exceptionally thin wings they designed...
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Jack Grouell
White wings top and bottom (gray fuselage). White may have been chosen to
increase visibility on the ground, or it may have been to make the wings
easier to keep clean - they were always spotless.
Jack
"LeadSled58" <leads...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001109145119...@ng-cm1.aol.com...
> >The instructions for Hasegawa's 1/48 F-104C indicate that the
> >underneath of the wings are painted Aircraft Gray. Is this correct? I
> >thought the wings were white, top and bottom.
>
> Eric,
>
> For what it is worth, I think there is some disagreement on this. I have
seen
> several active 104s and even have a picture or two with the wings white on
the
> bottom. I think it may have been up to the interpretation of the paint
shop at
> some point. But yes, some 104s did have white bottomed wings.
>
> HTH
>
> Tom
keith.bunyan
white over grey except for very early examples which were silver. I think
they may have been painted. I understand the grey is ADC grey.
The J-79 in the F-104 was the first to feature a variable stator system to
regulate airflow in the compressor section at all flight conditions and
speeds. This is now the status quo, but as often happens with advanced new
technology it initially created a major problem. With this very early Mach 2
aircraft there was concern about the airframe being overheated at very high
speeds. To avoid this, the aircraft were fitted with wing skin temperature
sensors which would trigger the variable system to reduce airflow in order
to retard thrust and keep the speed to a manageable velocity if overheating
was detected. The system was deactivated when the undercarriage was down for
obvious reasons. At Eglin AFB which was an early deployment, the intense sun
beating down on the ramp would heatsoak the F-104 airframes beyond the
threshold temperature but the engines would still develop full power until
the landing gear and flaps were retracted. This would of course be
immediately after takeoff. The pilot would be in a lose, lose situation, he
could ride the aircraft into the ground or eject into it using the downward
ejector seat.
The necessary correction was made after the cause was determined. However,
my understanding is that the interim fix was to paint the upper wing
surfaces white which was retained after the permanent fix. A belts and
braces approach insofar as colour is concerned but the wings did need to be
painted. There was I *think* a reason for grey undersurfaces but it escapes
me for the moment.
Tom, I would be grateful if you could point me to the shots you have seen
where the aircraft had white lower wings. I know that Modeller Al had the
same thought when I was writing about this on the Century Series, but after
some correspondence he agreed that the aircraft in question had grey lower
wings.
Keith
"Jack Grouell" <grou...@millenicom.com> wrote:
:> I was based at Webb AFB Texas where we had the 331st FIS with F-104A's --
> White wings top and bottom (gray fuselage). White may have been chosen to
> increase visibility on the ground, or it may have been to make the wings
> easier to keep clean - they were always spotless.
>
> Jack
> "LeadSled58" <leads...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20001109145119...@ng-cm1.aol.com...
> > >The instructions for Hasegawa's 1/48 F-104C indicate that the
> > >underneath of the wings are painted Aircraft Gray. Is this correct? I
> > >thought the wings were white, top and bottom.
> >
Sirius
and light grey (501-109) undersides. European-based CF-104s had the
upper surfaces of the horizontal tail painted white but those based in
Canada were red (509-102). Camouflaged aircraft had matching wings.
The above colour codes are from 1-GP-12c, the Canadian colour
standards, now replaced by FS.595 colours:
513-101 white replaced by 17875
501-109 light grey (withdrawn from use; no FS.595 equivalent required)
509-102 red replaced by 509-101 and then by 11105
Jeff Rankin-Lowe
Vesa Halme
>
> Canadian bare metal CF-104s had wings with white (513-101) uppersides
> and light grey (501-109) undersides. European-based CF-104s had the
> upper surfaces of the horizontal tail painted white but those based in
> Canada were red (509-102). Camouflaged aircraft had matching wings.
A couple of further questions on the CF-104 colors:
* What about the horizontal tail undersides on the bare metal scheme -
were they also white/red depending on where they were based or were they
unpainted / grey / some other color?
* I understand from looking at the Verlinden Lock-On that the wings were
fairly smooth (almost no visible rivet detail). Was this also the case
with the horizontal tail?
* What would be your color recommendation for the green color on the
overall green scheme?
--
Vesa Halme * work address
war...@vmhalme.pp.fi * vesa....@prh.fi
http://www.vmhalme.pp.fi/ * http://www.prh.fi
ICQ# 2258791
Rama Lama Wassupdoc
Keeper of the Flashlight and Mirror
Temple of the Thousand Lakes
Helsinki, Finland
Steven De Mulder
wings also caused the ailerons to get stuck.
BTW, in the Belgian AF F-104 wings were painted white on both upper and
lower surfaces. Stabilator remained bare metal, just like the rest of the
airframe. (Except for the anti glare panel)
Later on, these barer metal areas received a silver laquer, to prevent rain
from seeping in between panels.
Cheers,
Steven
<ELars...@gateway.net> wrote in message
news:8ud72r$tpm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Anders Svennevik
Vesa Halme wrote:
> * I understand from looking at the Verlinden Lock-On that the wings were
> fairly smooth (almost no visible rivet detail). Was this also the case
> with the horizontal tail?
I think this depends on from what distance you look. One of the French
magazines (Replic or Wingmaster) reviewed the Hasegawa kit. In the same
article where close up photos of a Belgian (?) F-104. The rivets visible on
the Hasegawa kit wings are also visible in the photos of the real thing. The
kit and the real thing appear to have the same number of rivets and in the
same places. In real life they appear to be smaller and flatter (flush), and
visible only because they have accumulated some dirt or that the paint has
flaked/cracked over the rivet..
> * What would be your color recommendation for the green color on the
> overall green scheme?
According to the Belcher Bits decal sheet which I bought recently, this
green varies enormously - from bluegreen to olive drab.
Anders
Mike
>
>
> A couple of further questions on the CF-104 colors:
>
> * What about the horizontal tail undersides on the bare metal scheme -
> were they also white/red depending on where they were based or were they
> unpainted / grey / some other color?
They were red/white on the bottom as well.
> * I understand from looking at the Verlinden Lock-On that the wings were
> fairly smooth (almost no visible rivet detail). Was this also the case
> with the horizontal tail?
It doesn't look any different to me, close up I can see the rivets but
you might want to dull the surface detail a bit.
>
> * What would be your color recommendation for the green color on the
> overall green scheme?
The colour was 503-122 but I don't know what the FS equivelant is.
--
Mike Dougherty
Toronto, Ont.
Canada
Jean S and/or Jeff C
wrote:
>
> The colour was 503-122 but I don't know what the FS equivelant is.
>
And it weathers badly. Put whatever you want on; it'll look like
503-122 at some point or other.
--
Jeff C
Sirius
> overall green scheme?
According to Pat Martin's book, "Canadian Armed Forces Aircraft Finish
& Markings 1968-1997", overall green was adopted when the nuclear
strike role was dropped in favour of conventional attack in 1970.
Drawings dated 17 Nov 1970 called for 503-322 green overall. The paint
came from a variety of stocks and varied considerably. Aircraft
painted earlier appeared to be olive drab with later ones appearing
dark green. Initially, the radome was 501-109 light grey with the
black anti-glare panel on top, but a 512-101 all-black radome was
later adopted. Roundels were gloss, 3-colour and the flag on the tail
was gloss, 2-colour. Other markings such as "CAF" and the serial were
in black 512-101.
FS.595 equivalents to 1-GP-12c colours are:
503-322 green: withdrawn from use, no FS.595 replacement;
501-109 light grey: withdrawn from use, no FS.595 replacement;
512-101 black: 17038 (gloss) or 37038 (flat).
According to David Klaus's "IPMS Color Cross-reference Guide", the
FS.595 equivalents are:
503-322 green: 34226 is "slightly too light and needs more green", but
since there was so much variation in the actual green used, you can
probably use 34226 as is;
501-109 light grey: 16473 is a "poor match [and] needs more blue and
green";
512-101 black: 17038 (gloss) or 37038 (flat); "exact match".
Don't forget that not all Starfighters were camouflaged. Very few of
those used in Canada were painted, with only one single-seater
appearing here in the overall green scheme. A few Canadian-based 104s
later wore the variegated camouflage. And, of course, those that were
lost prior to late 1970 weren't painted.
HTH.
Jeff Rankin-Lowe