Colonel Toon's (Tomb's) MiG17
Robey
> I purchased a Hasagawa MiG 17 today and was informed it was Toon's aircraft.
> The kit says it was Nguyen Van Bay's aircraft.
Toon (Tomb) appears to be a fictional pilot...nobody seems to know how it got
started. The VPAF don't have an Ace by either name since neither is a Vietnamese
name.
> To further complicate things I
> went to a web site...and says it's Toon's.
It would appear that site is in error.
> The number on
> the aircraft is red 3020 and shows 7 kill markings. That would match Van Bay's
> number of kills but is below Toon's approximately 13 kills.
The VPAF does NOT list any pilot with 13 kills, Nguyen Van Coc is listed as their
highest scorer with 9 (which includes two Firebee Drones).
> To further
> complicate things the picture shows Driscoll and Cunningham's aircraft
> following this MiG and I found another source which claims that Driscoll and
> Cunningham battled with Toon (I'm not sure if they succeeded in downing him).
On 10 May 1972, Cunningham and Driscoll became the first US Aces, when they downed
numbers 3,4, and 5. Their last kill was against a very wiley MiG-17 driver. This
gave rise to the claim they had downed Col Tomb, but the VPAF did not have any
Colonels flying fighters, nor anybody named Toon (Tomb). Cunningham and Driscoll
were later damaged by an SA-2, lost all hydraulics (Phantom flight controls are
hydraulic) and Duke managed to get "feet wet" prior to them ejecting.
How's the kit, is it the old Hasegawa/Minicraft mold (silver)?
Robey
Wec58
went to a web site looking for more info and the website and it appears as
though the website has the same aircraft and says it's Toon's. The number on
the aircraft is red 3020 and shows 7 kill markings. That would match Van Bay's
complicate things the picture shows Driscoll and Cunningham's aircraft
following this MiG and I found another source which claims that Driscoll and
need a Vietnam aces expert to help. Thanks.
Jørn Jensen / Lynx Hobby
intake to the cockpit. The MiG-17F actually had the same front section as
the MiG-15Bis. Thus it is not enough just to make a new intake-ring to
sustitute the one with the radar as som manufactures do. I suggest, if it is
the old kit, to substitute the whole front from the instrumentpanel and
forward with a nose section from a MiG-15Bis (the KP kit for example)
J.C.Jensen
Robey skrev i meddelelsen <35B80BE1...@SPAMFREEuswest.net>...
>Wec58 wrote:
>
>> I purchased a Hasagawa MiG 17 today and was informed it was Toon's
aircraft.
>> The kit says it was Nguyen Van Bay's aircraft.
>
>Toon (Tomb) appears to be a fictional pilot...nobody seems to know how it
got
>started. The VPAF don't have an Ace by either name since neither is a
Vietnamese
>name.
>
>> To further complicate things I
>> went to a web site...and says it's Toon's.
>
>It would appear that site is in error.
>
>> The number on
>> the aircraft is red 3020 and shows 7 kill markings. That would match Van
Bay's
>> number of kills but is below Toon's approximately 13 kills.
>
>The VPAF does NOT list any pilot with 13 kills, Nguyen Van Coc is listed as
their
>highest scorer with 9 (which includes two Firebee Drones).
>
>> To further
>> complicate things the picture shows Driscoll and Cunningham's aircraft
>> following this MiG and I found another source which claims that Driscoll
and
>> Cunningham battled with Toon (I'm not sure if they succeeded in downing
him).
>
Wec58
matched it up to any scale drawing. Do you know of any source for Nguyen Van
Coc's markings?
Michael Benolkin
von Richtofen of the VPAF. The trouble is that he has shown up in a variety
of articles and references over the years in a number of countries. On the
US side of the fence, Toon became a target to go hunting for,
someone/something to focus on. I suspect Toon is the fabrication of
someone's propaganda machine, but he has been run through virtually
everyone's machine since the 70s and it would be a challenge to find out who
'fabricated' him first. It would be the same challenge trying to hunt down
the origins of that legendary plastics ace, Bruce Beamish.
--
V/R,
Michael Benolkin
tac...@tacair-press.com
TacAir Publications
http://tacair-press.com/tacair.shtml
IPMS/Albuquerque Scale Modelers
http://tacair-press.com/asm.shtml
Military Aviation Research
http://tacair-press.com/research.shtml
Wec58 wrote in message <199807240309...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>I purchased a Hasagawa MiG 17 today and was informed it was Toon's
aircraft.
>The kit says it was Nguyen Van Bay's aircraft. To further complicate things
I
>went to a web site looking for more info and the website and it appears as
>though the website has the same aircraft and says it's Toon's. The number
on
>the aircraft is red 3020 and shows 7 kill markings. That would match Van
Bay's
>number of kills but is below Toon's approximately 13 kills. To further
>complicate things the picture shows Driscoll and Cunningham's aircraft
>following this MiG and I found another source which claims that Driscoll
and
>Cunningham battled with Toon (I'm not sure if they succeeded in downing
SVanaken
NVAF during this period. Does anyone know of one?
Cheers,
__________________________________________________________________________
----Scott Van Aken IPMS Canada 5729----
----The Aviation Nut Webzine----
----http://members.aol.com/svanaken----
----Fly by Nite Productions----
Robey
> I haven't matched it up to any scale drawing. Do you know of any source for
> Nguyen Van
> Coc's markings?
Uhoh....in the book (Squadron/Signal) Air War Over North Viet Nam, Van Coc flew
MiG-21s in the 921st Fighter Regiment. As far as markings go, as you know almost
all MiGs were in a natural metal finish. There were some mottled green camo
jobs.
Robey
Robey
> While reading this thread, I was wondering about a decent reference for the
> NVAF during this period. Does anyone know of one?
Hmmm, I know of two interesting pieces.
In Volume 8 of Wings of Fame there is an 18 page article "MiG-17s Over
Vietnam." All of the contemporaneous photos from the war are blurry or grainy.
There are color side views (artwork) of four MiG-17s...so there isn't much for
the modeller.
Squadron/Signal just published "Air War Over North Viet Nam." Nothing of any
great help to a modeller, but interesting to get the VPAF's perspective. From a
scholarly POV there is limited descriptions of air combat, and many gaps in
details. Things like claims for kills, but not knowing who made the
kill...whaaaat? It even mentions at one point about a VPAF pilot being gunned
to death while in his chute by USAF F-4s. I'm highly skeptical of such reports.
(Actually I vehemently think it's total BS) This book does provide unique
insight into the VPAF's POV, but is fraught with (IMHO) errors of
documentation. This title is not comparable to "...And Kill MiGs" nor Rene
Francillon's excellent, "Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club."
Robey
D. Anderson
>While reading this thread, I was wondering about a decent reference for the
>NVAF during this period. Does anyone know of one?
>Cheers,
There's that new Squadron book on the People's Air Force, told from
the Vietnamese point of view. However, it may be heavily biased.
Still, lots of pictures and paintings.
DA
Art Murray
Michael Benolkin wrote:
> I have been aware of the tales of Colonel Toon. He was made out to be the
> von Richtofen of the VPAF. The trouble is that he has shown up in a variety
> of articles and references over the years in a number of countries. On the
> US side of the fence, Toon became a target to go hunting for,
> someone/something to focus on. I suspect Toon is the fabrication of
> someone's propaganda machine, but he has been run through virtually
> everyone's machine since the 70s and it would be a challenge to find out who
> 'fabricated' him first. It would be the same challenge trying to hunt down
> the origins of that legendary plastics ace, Bruce Beamish.
>
Actually, you are closer to the truth than you think. After the war, Col. Toon
fled VN when he was not promoted to General and not given the MacDonald's
franchise that goes with promotion. Made his way to the Gulf coast of Texas
where he became a shrimp fisherman. On a trip to Dallas to sell shrimp in Daley
Plaza, he saw a hobby shop display. Thus was born the inspiration to go into
the model industry. The rest is history.
:-)
Art
Bejewelled
MiG-17PFM kit with new nose ring and cannons. The front fuselage is wrong, and
so is the canopy/windscreen. The kit is not up to modern standards anyway. I
took it back to the shop. (Hannant's, years ago) for a refund.
Last year Cookie Sewell explained on this NG why Cunningham's fifth victory may
well have been Van Bay. The Squadron book just doesn't seem to mention his
fate. Or how that pilot was strafed in his chute by Navy F-4s.
Adrian Camp.
DMAWK
the fact that the F4J did not carry an internal gun? could you elaborate
further?
>Last year Cookie Sewell explained on this NG why Cunningham's fifth victory
>may
>well have been Van Bay. The Squadron book just doesn't seem to mention his
>fate. Or how that pilot was strafed in his chute by Navy F-4s.
>
>Adrian Camp.
></PRE></HTML>
William H. Shuey
>
> The kit will not make van Bay's 17F, it is as previously stated the old
> MiG-17PFM kit with new nose ring and cannons. The front fuselage is wrong, and
> so is the canopy/windscreen. The kit is not up to modern standards anyway. I
> took it back to the shop. (Hannant's, years ago) for a refund.
> well have been Van Bay. The Squadron book just doesn't seem to mention his
> fate. Or how that pilot was strafed in his chute by Navy F-4s.
>
> Adrian Camp.
Common sense says no fighter pilot in his right mind is going to slow
down enough to hit a descending chute in a combat area where other enemy
fighters may be around. He'd have to be certifiably nuts, and while
fighter pilots tend to think a little differently than the rest of us,
they ain't that crazy!
Bill Shuey
Matthew Y. Hayashibara
<amu...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>Actually, you are closer to the truth than you think. After the war, Col. Toon
>fled VN when he was not promoted to General and not given the MacDonald's
>franchise that goes with promotion. Made his way to the Gulf coast of Texas
>where he became a shrimp fisherman. On a trip to Dallas to sell shrimp in Daley
>Plaza, he saw a hobby shop display. Thus was born the inspiration to go into
>the model industry. The rest is history.
Thanks for straightening us out, Art... I was led to believe he owned
and operated a donut shop in Westminster, CA! (aka "Little Saigon")
MadMat
William H. Shuey
>
> "William H. Shuey" wrote:
> >
> > Common sense says no fighter pilot in his right mind is going to slow
> > down enough to hit a descending chute in a combat area where other enemy
> > fighters may be around. He'd have to be certifiably nuts, and while
> > fighter pilots tend to think a little differently than the rest of us,
> > they ain't that crazy!
>
> swinging object--and then the pilot having to explain the gun camera footage
> to his CO and his buddies. If the VN folks had found a 20mm-riddled body
> under a parachute I'd imagine it was because his plane was trap-shot with
> such force that the cockpit disintegrated--and the parachute was opened by
> the combination of ballistics and aerodynamics.
>
> In the novel "Twelve O'Clock High", it said that Wutz Galland's Me110
> followed the stricken Picadilly Lily down to the Channel and then began
> strafing the surviving aircrew. He got a piece of 50-caliber comeuppance for
> his trouble, but unless I heard such a story from a veteran (saying that
> fighter pilots would go through the trouble of killing already downed enemy
> pilots) I would not believe it myself.
>
> --
> Stephen "FPilot"/"Stone Tepid" Bierce
> IPMS/nWMo/SCM/RDF/F&Co/N&V
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
FWIW "Wutz" Galland did not fly Bf-110s. He flew Bf-109s and Fw-190s in
Adolph's Geschwader. See "JG 26, Top Guns of the Luftwaffe" by Donald
Caldwell. Published by Orion Books.
Bill Shuey
Jonathan O'Connor
JO'C
Robey
> Common sense says no fighter pilot in his right mind is going to slow
> down enough to hit a descending chute in a combat area where other enemy
> fighters may be around.
Indeed that is logical, but I think you miss the point. The only F-4 with guns on 10
May 72 (date of alleged event) were USAF F-4Es, the Ds were not carrying the SUU-23
pod that day AND the USN Bs and Js had no gun at all. On that day no F-4E got a kill.
All three USAF kills were MiG-21s by F-4Ds, seven of the USN's eight kills were
MiG-17s. Sooooo, you'd have to be some rogue F-4E flight driving through a furball of
USN F-4s to shoot a MiG-17 guy in his parachute. Not very likely. Hard to imagine the
Navy dudes not seeing an AF guy poaching their bandits.
> He'd have to be certifiably nuts...
Criminal indeed.
> fighter pilots tend to think a little differently than the rest of us...
Friendly folks who love airplanes (fast cars, beautiful women, and cold beer)...just
like you and me.
Robey
Robey
> If the VN folks had found a 20mm-riddled body
> under a parachute I'd imagine it was because his plane was trap-shot with
> such force that the cockpit disintegrated--and the parachute was opened by
> the combination of ballistics and aerodynamics.
I'd imagine that AAA gunners shot him by accident. Again there were no gun kills
on the date this event is alleged to happen.
Robey
Alan
>
> He wasn't dead. It was just a flesh wound.
> JO'C
Yes, but he'll be stone cold dead in a moment.
Alan
sbi...@my-dejanews.com
>
> Actually, you are closer to the truth than you think. After the war, Col.
Toon
> fled VN when he was not promoted to General and not given the MacDonald's
> franchise that goes with promotion. Made his way to the Gulf coast of Texas
> where he became a shrimp fisherman. On a trip to Dallas to sell shrimp in
Daley
> Plaza, he saw a hobby shop display. Thus was born the inspiration to go into
> the model industry. The rest is history.
Err, kinda hard to do when yr dead. :-/
sbi...@my-dejanews.com
>
> Common sense says no fighter pilot in his right mind is going to slow
> down enough to hit a descending chute in a combat area where other enemy
> fighter pilots tend to think a little differently than the rest of us,
> they ain't that crazy!
Not to mention the degree of difficulty in targeting a man-sized, randomly
swinging object--and then the pilot having to explain the gun camera footage
to his CO and his buddies. If the VN folks had found a 20mm-riddled body
under a parachute I'd imagine it was because his plane was trap-shot with
such force that the cockpit disintegrated--and the parachute was opened by
the combination of ballistics and aerodynamics.
In the novel "Twelve O'Clock High", it said that Wutz Galland's Me110
followed the stricken Picadilly Lily down to the Channel and then began
strafing the surviving aircrew. He got a piece of 50-caliber comeuppance for
his trouble, but unless I heard such a story from a veteran (saying that
fighter pilots would go through the trouble of killing already downed enemy
pilots) I would not believe it myself.
--
AMPSOne
the source is established.
The MiG-17 article is an extract of what is in the new VPAF history from
Squadron. Both are near verbatim translations of the "official" history of the
VPAF, and as such are somewhat circumspect.
The VPAF is still playing games with "who's who", although we now know a lot
more about who shot who on 10 May 1972. Cunningham and Driscoll's 5th Kill was
a pilot named Nguyen Van Tho, who is listed in one account as buying then and
there, and in another as bailing out. Tho was a 17 driver from the original
batch of 31, so that does match up.
I have since found out that Dose/McDevitt's kill was not the model for "Tomb"
-- Dang Ngoc Ngu -- but his wingman, an unfortunate soul named Ngai who did not
survive the crash. Ngu DID claim Dose's element leader as a kil though, but
anyone who read the classic Ethell/Price "One Day in a Long War" knows that one
"won't fly" (pun intended!)
Ngu bought it on 8 July 1972 when shot down by a (?Talos?) from one of the
cruisers, which I am pretty sure was the USS Chicago.
The whole "Tomb" business comes from idiots who did not read Vietnamese and saw
some of the classified reports using Vietnamese telegraphics at the time, and
screwed it up. Even Jack Anderson wrote him up in a 1971 column and tried to
correct the spelling to TOONS but could not get people to believe it.
Cookie Sewell
AMPS
PS a complete history of the Vietnamese Air War with a comparison of "who shot
John" reports and assessments is being written, but not by the fellow who
"wrote" the VPAF book for Squadron.
sbi...@my-dejanews.com
> > In the novel "Twelve O'Clock High", it said that Wutz Galland's Me110
> > followed the stricken Picadilly Lily down to the Channel and then began
> > strafing the surviving aircrew.
> FWIW "Wutz" Galland did not fly Bf-110s. He flew Bf-109s and Fw-190s in
> Adolph's Geschwader. See "JG 26, Top Guns of the Luftwaffe" by Donald
> Caldwell. Published by Orion Books.
I said it was a NOVEL. I was unaware that the real Adolf Galland had "Wutz"
as a nickname, if that's true.
--
Stephen "FPilot"/"Stone Tepid" Bierce
IPMS#35922/nWMo/SCM/RDF/F&Co/N&V
Art Murray
>
>
> Err, kinda hard to do when yr dead. :-/
>
>
His deception worked even better than I thought! :-)
Art
Mark Seitz
I thought that US F-4's of that time did not have an internal gun?
Geoff Murphy
combat in a dogfight scenario. However, common sense might not be one of
those. It does seem the revenge factor could be very strong when you see a
"buddy" going down in flames after a sneak attack from the rear as the
Vietnamese pilots were famous for doing. The chance to put a few 20 mm
rounds through the culprit might be too much to resist. War can have a
profound effect on the most civilized person.
--
Geoff Murphy IPMS 18481
"Sometimes I think while I am modeling but most of the time I just model"
Remove "spam" from address to reply directly to me
William H. Shuey wrote in message <35B92D...@erols.com>...
>Bejewelled wrote:
>>
>> The kit will not make van Bay's 17F, it is as previously stated the old
>> MiG-17PFM kit with new nose ring and cannons. The front fuselage is
wrong, and
>> so is the canopy/windscreen. The kit is not up to modern standards
anyway. I
>> took it back to the shop. (Hannant's, years ago) for a refund.
>> Last year Cookie Sewell explained on this NG why Cunningham's fifth
victory may
>> well have been Van Bay. The Squadron book just doesn't seem to mention
his
>> fate. Or how that pilot was strafed in his chute by Navy F-4s.
>>
>> Adrian Camp.
>
>Common sense says no fighter pilot in his right mind is going to slow
>down enough to hit a descending chute in a combat area where other enemy
>fighters may be around. He'd have to be certifiably nuts, and while
>fighter pilots tend to think a little differently than the rest of us,
>they ain't that crazy!
>
> Bill Shuey
Carsten Pedersen
>> Adolph's Geschwader. See "JG 26, Top Guns of the Luftwaffe" by Donald
>> Caldwell. Published by Orion Books.
>
>I said it was a NOVEL. I was unaware that the real Adolf Galland had "Wutz"
>as a nickname, if that's true.
Actually Galland's nickname was "Dolfo". And he flew 109's, 262's and a He
51 in Poland. He tried out a 190, though, and recommended it strongly. But
he never
flew one permanently.
C@rsten
Ved svar pr. direkte e-mail: erstat dk med usa i returadressen
If replying by e-mail: replace dk with usa in my return address
Robey
> Adrian,
>
> I thought that US F-4's of that time did not have an internal gun?
That was Adrian's point, USN Phantoms lack a gun. So the USN could not
possibly "gun" somebody. Hence the suspect nature of the VPAF report. AF
F-4Es obviously had a gun, and AF F-4Ds carried the SUU-23 on occasion.
Robey
The Shannons
Germans. "Wutz" was described by many of their fellow Luftwaffe pilots as a
better flier than Adolf, but Dolfo was certainly a better leader.
Wutz was killed during the combined Schweinfurt/Regensburg raid, during the
Schweinfurt attack group's withdrawl. It is not certain how he was shot down,
though certain descriptions indicate he may have been one of Mahurin's
victories. What is known is that he had led his Gruppe into an attack on the
B-17's, and they were surprised by the withdrawl escort P-47's of the 56th
Fighter Group arriving sooner and farther from the coast than it was thought
capable. In the confused fighting, Wutz disappeared. His aircraft, with him in
it, was found in some fenland, almost totally buried, a few weeks later.
Adolf Galland was not flying operationally at the time, in his role as General
of Dayfighters. (something like General die Jagdtagfliegeren).
The other relative was also killed during the war.
Carsten Pedersen wrote:
--
This has been Mark and/or Mary Shannon
at Shin...@ix.netcom.com
History manages to get away with cliches no novelist could.
ModelerAl
<ka...@sunherald.infi.net.spam> writes:
>It does seem the revenge factor could be very strong when you see a
>"buddy" going down in flames after a sneak attack from the rear as the
>Vietnamese pilots were famous for doing.
Well after all, this is the classic fighter pilot's attack tactic, isn't
it? The best way to score a kill is to hit the other guy before he even sees
you. What's wrong with that? That's why fighter types are supposed to keep
their heads on a swivel...
Al Superczynski, MFE
IPMS/USA #3795, continuous since 1968
Check out my want and disposal lists at "Al's Place":
http://users.aol.com/modeleral
"Build what YOU like, the way YOU want to,
and the critics will flame you every time."
Rick DeNatale
<ca...@dk.net> wrote:
>>> FWIW "Wutz" Galland did not fly Bf-110s. He flew Bf-109s and Fw-190s in
>>> Adolph's Geschwader. See "JG 26, Top Guns of the Luftwaffe" by Donald
>>> Caldwell. Published by Orion Books.
>>
>>I said it was a NOVEL. I was unaware that the real Adolf Galland had "Wutz"
>>as a nickname, if that's true.
>
>
>Actually Galland's nickname was "Dolfo". And he flew 109's, 262's and a He
>51 in Poland. He tried out a 190, though, and recommended it strongly. But
>he never
>flew one permanently.
Adolph Galland had three brothers. Fritz who was older than "Dolfo" and
Wilhelm-Ferdinand "Wutz" and Paul who were younger. All three flew in the
Luftwaffe, Wutz and Paul were both assigned to JG26. Fritz started out in
reconnaissance and later flew in fighters.
Paul Galland was killed on October 31, 1942 over Calais after scoring his
17th kill. Wutz was killed on August 17, 1943. Wutz scored 55 kills and
had been awarded the Knight's Cross. He was attacking a flight of B-17s on
their return from Schweinfurt, when he was jumped by Hub Zemke's 56th
fighter group. Walker "Bud" Mahurin might have been the pilot who got him.
This is according to David Baker's "Adolf Galland: The Authorised Biography".
--
Rick DeNatale
still looking for a cool signature
dena...@mindspring.com
http://www.mindspring.com/~denatale/
Robey
> I confess I don't know what might thoughts go through mans mind while flying
> combat in a dogfight scenario.
I have no combat experience...
> However, common sense might not be one of those.
Hmmm, from my very limited peace-time experience...it's all training, logical
training.My AF predecessors in vietnam, did not have the benefit of ACM and
DACT. Their BFM skills were weaker than their bombing skills. The naval guys had
better air-to-air skills.
> It does seem the revenge factor could be very strong when you see a
> "buddy" going down in flames after a sneak attack from the rear as the
> Vietnamese pilots were famous for doing.
Sorry, I respectfully submit that is Bullsh*t! As a guy that spent 10 years in
that profession (1979-89) I've never even heard hints of that kind of behavior.
That would NOT be tolerated. Obviously Cookie Sewell might have heard something
else...but I sincerely doubt it. You're speculating about something I have a
pretty good handle on, IMO.
> The chance to put a few 20 mm rounds through the culprit might be too much to
> resist.
Nah...it's the machine you're after, NOT the pilot. Sure if I could put my 20mm
into the cockpit with him still there fine, but once a guy is hanging in his
chute he becomes "hors de combat" (or some similar sounding french phrase). You
go to Leavenworth for shooting at pilot/WSO in a parachute. No excuses!
> War can have a profound effect on the most civilized person.
Indeed, but most aviators I know are pretty well grounded. An unobserved entry
by a bandit is something we were trained to anticipate, and not get pissed at
the MiG guy that was smart enough to get there.
Sorry for the soapbox mode, and nothing personal is intended. Obviously I have
pretty strong feelings about this topic.
Robey
Chris Douglas
>The kit will not make van Bay's 17F, it is as previously stated the old
>MiG-17PFM kit with new nose ring and cannons. The front fuselage is wrong, and
>so is the canopy/windscreen. The kit is not up to modern standards anyway. I
>took it back to the shop. (Hannant's, years ago) for a refund.
>Last year Cookie Sewell explained on this NG why Cunningham's fifth victory may
>well have been Van Bay. The Squadron book just doesn't seem to mention his
>fate. Or how that pilot was strafed in his chute by Navy F-4s.
>
>Adrian Camp.
That must've been quite an extraordinary event, as Navy F-4's didn't have
guns.
--Chris Douglas
-------------------------------------------------------------
"Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that
only an intellectual could ignore or evade it."
-Thomas Sowell
-------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Douglas
>I confess I don't know what might thoughts go through mans mind while flying
>those. It does seem the revenge factor could be very strong when you see a
>"buddy" going down in flames after a sneak attack from the rear as the
>rounds through the culprit might be too much to resist. War can have a
>profound effect on the most civilized person.
>
As I recall, there was at least one case in WW2 when a German pilot was shot
down and killed in his chute, because he was observed strafing Allied chutes
at the time. Of course, strafing chutes in a WW2 fighter and strafing chutes
with a USN F-4 are markedly different in at least two respects:
1) WW2 fighters were much slower
2) WW2 fighters had guns
--Chris Douglas
------------------------------------------------------------
If you are not prepared to use force to defend civilization,
then be prepared to accept barbarism.
-Thomas Sowell
------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Settle
Carsten Pedersen wrote:
> >> FWIW "Wutz" Galland did not fly Bf-110s. He flew Bf-109s and Fw-190s in
> >> Adolph's Geschwader. See "JG 26, Top Guns of the Luftwaffe" by Donald
> >> Caldwell. Published by Orion Books.
> >
> >I said it was a NOVEL. I was unaware that the real Adolf Galland had "Wutz"
> >as a nickname, if that's true.
>
> Actually Galland's nickname was "Dolfo". And he flew 109's, 262's and a He
> 51 in Poland. He tried out a 190, though, and recommended it strongly. But
> he never
> flew one permanently.
>
Adolph Galland's brother, Wutz, was also a fighter pilot with the Luftwaffe.
There was also another brother whose name I cannot remember at the moment.
Neither of Adolph's brothers survived the war.
--
Mike Settle
Our problems are mostly behind us. What we have to do now is fight the
solutions. (Anon.)
AMPSOne
total crap. These guys adhered to the KGB concept of propaganda better than any
other Soviet client state. Nobody got strafed in chutes on our side, and doubt
their people did it either. POWs were too valuable a bargaining chip, and any
one killed usually resulted in his executioners joining him shortly afterwards.
This only covers Viet Nam...
Cookie Sewell
AMPS
Dan Winfield
that after the extremely heavy loses of Allied bombers over Germany, the USAAF,
didn't openly approve of the shooting of German pilots in their chutes, but let
it be known that it was alot harder to replace a good pilot, than it was a plane.
Doesn't it seem logical if you eliminate the pilots, you eventually don't have to
worry about the planes, same applies on the battle field, your enemy doesn't try
and shoot your gun out of your hand does he, no he shoots you. When one pilot
can kill ten men by shooting down one bomber, I'd be inclined to eliminate him
personally.
MRLB Dan¹
Bejewelled
been heard of since 1972, and the -17s seem to have been withdrawn after 10
May, except for two lost in June.
Adrian Camp.
Kurt Plummer
USN SEA F-4's /could/ have guns and in the 'first war' (there were
actually two ya' know...) they often did. HiPEG Mk.4s on the centerline
I think. USAF 4C/D had the SUU-23 Vulcan and F-8's carried quad
Mk.12's All in spraying around 4-6K spm and every one in 20mm so you'd
definitely 'know you've been hit' (along about the time Peter is sizing
your halo on the brim machine)... Also far better sights and
powered-precise controls.
In _/Horrido!/_, there are mentioned 'several' accounts of -jet- pilots
being strafed after landing because they were such a menace. One was a
personal-by-survivor I could look up if you want.
In the end it comes down to this:
1. If he's over his territory think about it. For prior mentioned
reasons. Tactical opposition reduction to own-treatment
likelihood if shot down. Remember, they can kill you AFTER you
land too.
2. If you're in a multibandit/SAM environment with friends as well as
yourself potentially endangered by independent head-hunting -don't-,
ever.
3. If he's over YOUR territory, there is no excuse; it's murder.
4. One's after-mission Aggression should be modified by the likelihood
of war-loss in your nation's immediate future ('War Crimes' etc.)
and also the activities of your fellows. If they're all doing it
then you'll likely die if shot down anyway so you might as well add
to the attrition effect and hope to make it a shorter war.
IMO, 'cockpit kills' accounted for about 60-70% of the 'airframe kills'
anyway, be it via a shattered canopy and .50 ball/HEI bouncing around
the cockpit, or the last roller coaster ride as anonymous freegyros in
at 10-20G with a wing blown off, or the compressibles dig-for-China
approach.
I also believe 'luck' serves those who naturally have it and those who
try really hard to amass it and wouldn't want to be giving myself
negative Moja points blasting helpless-other guys knowing I could be in
their place some day. Totally illogical in the singular selective
instance (chances of my being seen during-murder or recognized as a
prior criminal) but never the less 'true' as a total-mimicked behaviour
represented throughout the Forces.
I /don't/ imagine either the German or Viet citizenry were terribly
thrilled at being bombed and THEY are the over-zealous-wannabe-heros who
are the really dangerous party. Many times the Germans did not treat
THEIR OWN GUYS terribly well 'recovering' them from the fields.
It takes a lot of sticking to die by rusty pitchfork and the
luck-honor-Geneva factor is minimal.
BTW: whoever said that POW's were 'propoganda tools' obviously never
read the statistic about the 'at least 55 of those who died' in Hanoi's
tender hands did so via their captors caring touch. Don't feel bad, the
Senators and Congressman who had previously threatened to turn NV into a
desert if they hurt a single one of our people apparently were suffering
from temp-deafness as well.
KP
Carsten Pedersen
corrected.
James and Linda Young
>I confess I don't know what might thoughts go through mans mind while flying
>combat in a dogfight scenario. However, common sense might not be one of
>those. It does seem the revenge factor could be very strong when you see a
>"buddy" going down in flames after a sneak attack from the rear as the
>Vietnamese pilots were famous for doing. The chance to put a few 20 mm
>rounds through the culprit might be too much to resist. War can have a
>profound effect on the most civilized person.
*****
>>Common sense says no fighter pilot in his right mind is going to slow
>>down enough to hit a descending chute in a combat area where other enemy
>>fighters may be around. He'd have to be certifiably nuts, and while
>>fighter pilots tend to think a little differently than the rest of us,
>>they ain't that crazy!
>>
>> Bill Shuey
A recent segment of "Weekday Wings" on the Discovery Channel had a P-51 pilot
talking about the time he strafed a Luftwaffe pilot in his chute. The Mustang
driver had shot the guy down after he was strafing a B-17 crew who were hanging
in their chutes. Didn't get his name, though.
**James
AMPSOne
name on them were recently published in the VPAF's professional journal. He (a)
claims he did no combat flying after 1967 but (b) is credited with leading the
attack on the naval vessels in April 1972. Go figure.
Cookie Sewell
AMPS
Nate
German aircrew of either a FW-200 or Ju-88 (I don't remember which)he shot
down at sea as an act of "kindness". The crew was without dinghy and he
thought it better to be shot than slowly die of the cold water.
Additionally, I remember reading in Tommy Backburn's Jolly Rogers book how
he was leading a mission escorting bombers and and during combat one of the
corsair pilots in his squadron accidently blew some kind of emergency valve
that lowered the landing gear permanently on the aircraft. Blackburn's
decision was to continue on escorting the bombers with his entire unit and
leave the guy behind alone. He eventually was caught by the Japanese
fighters, shot down and killed. That was a tough decision that might of
ended up in a blanket party later that night (it didn't) - but it made some
uneasy feelings in the unit.
Food for thought on this type of topic.
--
Nate
spit...@aug.com
Nate
James and Linda Young <jly...@atl.mindspring.com> wrote in article
<6pfi62$8fd$1...@samsara0.mindspring.com>...
> "Geoff Murphy" <ka...@sunherald.infi.net.spam> wrote:
>
> >I confess I don't know what might thoughts go through mans mind while
flying
> >combat in a dogfight scenario. However, common sense might not be one
of
> >those. It does seem the revenge factor could be very strong when you
see a
> >"buddy" going down in flames after a sneak attack from the rear as the
> >Vietnamese pilots were famous for doing. The chance to put a few 20 mm
> >rounds through the culprit might be too much to resist. War can have a
> >profound effect on the most civilized person.
Over enemy territory, and no air supremacy or superiority established -
sounds like the thing to do (and I'm more liberal minded)
As far as a sneak attack from the rear - I would do it every chance I got!
Throw in the sun, backdrop, smoke, or other any other cover at my back the
better.
Nate
spit...@aug.com
William H. Shuey
> It does seem the revenge factor could be very strong when you see a
> "buddy" going down in flames after a sneak attack from the rear as the
> Vietnamese pilots were famous for doing.
> As far as a sneak attack from the rear - I would do it every chance I
> got! Throw in the sun, backdrop, smoke, or other any other cover at my
> back the better.
>
> Nate
> spit...@aug.com
What's this "Dirty Sneak Attack" idea? Surprise is a basic part of
Military strategy and has been since the first group of cavemen banded
together to jump on some neighbors for their supply of smoked mammonth
steaks.
The surprise attack from out of the sun was invented by Max
Immelman the day after he got his first Fokker E-1, and it's been the
first principle of air combat ever since. The guy who couldn't get that
thru his head didn't last long.
Bill Shuey
IPMS 10292
Matthew Y. Hayashibara
>Jonathan O'Connor wrote:
>>
>> He wasn't dead. It was just a flesh wound.
>> JO'C
>
>Yes, but he'll be stone cold dead in a moment.
I feel happy, happy...
MadMat
MODEL HAWK
This not Moderrrhawk, this Col Tomb. I beat on him head, write on him
computer. I no cac'a dau....I LIVE!
Col Tomb
PAVNAF
:-) :-)
Happy modeling; Modelhawk
Wonder who Modelhawk is? Check out my HOME PAGE and find out:
http://members.aol.com/MODELHAWK/Modelhawk.index.html
John Hairell
>Michael Benolkin wrote:
>> I have been aware of the tales of Colonel Toon. He was made out to be the
>> von Richtofen of the VPAF. The trouble is that he has shown up in a variety
>> of articles and references over the years in a number of countries. On the
>> US side of the fence, Toon became a target to go hunting for,
>> someone/something to focus on. I suspect Toon is the fabrication of
>> someone's propaganda machine, but he has been run through virtually
>> everyone's machine since the 70s and it would be a challenge to find out who
>> 'fabricated' him first. It would be the same challenge trying to hunt down
>> the origins of that legendary plastics ace, Bruce Beamish.
>>
>Actually, you are closer to the truth than you think. After the war, Col. Toon
>fled VN when he was not promoted to General and not given the MacDonald's
>franchise that goes with promotion. Made his way to the Gulf coast of Texas
>where he became a shrimp fisherman. On a trip to Dallas to sell shrimp in Daley
>Plaza, he saw a hobby shop display. Thus was born the inspiration to go into
>the model industry. The rest is history.
>:-)
>Art
All of the Vietnamese who moved to the Gulf Coast to go into the shrimping
business of course changed their names to conform to Texas (Baja Oklahoma)
naming standards. Thus there are now such names as Billy-Bob Nguyen, "Big-D"
Toon, Jimmy Ngo, Ricky Lee Truong, etc.
Just thought I'd add my 2 cents in this cultural dialogue....
John Hairell (jhai...@pop200.gsfc.nasa.gov)
MODEL HAWK
>
>All of the Vietnamese who moved to the Gulf Coast to go into the shrimping
>business of course changed their names to conform to Texas (Baja Oklahoma)
>naming standards. Thus there are now such names as Billy-Bob Nguyen,
>"Big-D" Toon, Jimmy Ngo, Ricky Lee Truong, etc.
>
>Just thought I'd add my 2 cents in this cultural dialogue....
>
and the locals were DEFINITELY at odds with each other's method of shrimping.
It really got out of hand and there were several people beaten and even killed
on the streets of Gulfport MS over it. ther were at least a couple rinning gun
battles out in the gulf between parties also. Hell! Maybe 'ole Billy-Bob Tomb
really is down there!!!!