Launching mice as payload. WHY NOT?
emor...@mindspring.com
Ok ok, I admit it.... as a Lad, I used to, an quite a regular basis
lauch white mice into high orbit. (ok....1500 feet) It gave me great Joy to
see my little friends blasted off the pad on top of a variety of lauch
vehicles. (one and two stage C and D size engines... one time a three
stage, but we won't talk about that one.. Even more enjoyable was watching
the furry little buggers float gently back to earth inclosed in a home built
padded, ventilated capusle. And you know out of i would guess 40 flights. I
lost one mouse (three stage) and I never EVER had any type of injuries or
DOA mice on landing...
So years pass, And now, As I begin to Dabble in Model rockets once again
I see a rocket called OMOLIOD or something like that.. it looked like a
perfect mouse laucher... But then I remembed reading some poop about It not
being "Nice or humane" to shoot these little buggers into space....
I'm Sorry, and I am sure this will start a fight, but GIVE ME A BREAK!
Like its "Nice Or Humane" to Feed these little critters to a SNAKE!
If I were to get the choice between being crushed to death and then
ingested and pooped out and a month, or Getting to be one of the select few
mice chosen to be Pioners in the Space race... I belive a few seconds of
insane thrust followed by a nice lofty ride back to earth beats getting
eaten any day....
So tell me How may of you have shot a mouse up? maybe not in your adult
life, but come on, who hasen't thought. I wish I was that mouse....
DOWN WITH THE MOUSE BAN!
Thanks
sighed
someone that may or may not send the first mouse to the moon.
P.S. I consider myself an animal lover.
Scott McCrate
says...
>
>
<sniparoonie>
I'm not going to comment on the post itself except that I'll lay odds that this
will be one of the most long-playing threads in recent r.m.r history ;0)
Scott McCrate
NAR #71680
mccrates@fuse-no spam-.net
remove -no spam- when e-mailing
Bob
Bob. http://www.ocston.org/~bobar
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lager is an imitation Continental beer drunk only by refined ladies,
people with digestive ailments, tourists, and other weaklings."
- Munchen Suddeutsche Zeitung
Sandra Doyle
kill the mouse before feeding it to the snake. Idealy, the mouse should
be killed in a humane way, not sure if that always happens, thou. And,
the reason for feeding pre-killed prey is so that the snake is not harmed
by a struggling victim. A mouse, rat, rabbit, chicken, can do a lot of
damage before its finally eaten. If a snake is not hungry it will not go
after the prey, and then could very well become the victim itself.
As for picking one situation over the other, the mouse has no say in either,
does it? Animals cannot reason in such things as a glorious death
opposed to a common one. Personally, I don't care. Shoot the bloody
mouse into orbit, go ahead. I feed the damn things to my snake, and I
kill them myself first. Mice are food. Shoot a big mac into orbit, its
just as poetic.
;-)
--
Sandra Doyle
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
I'm not a bitch, but I play one on the internet.
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Disclaimer: These are my opinions only. But I share.
Visit my web page: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~sdoyle/
ddee...@my-deja.com
Scott McCrate <Scott_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> In article <862057$8hd$1...@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net>,
<emor...@mindspring.com
> says...
> >
> >
> <sniparoonie>
>
> I'm not going to comment on the post itself except that I'll lay odds
that this
> will be one of the most long-playing threads in recent r.m.r history
;0)
Nah. We make sacrifices to the rocket gods all the time. The no mice
rule is simply our sacrifice to PETA to keep them off our backs -- no
more, no less.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Steve Decker
<emor...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Ok ok, I admit it.... as a Lad, I used to, an quite a regular
> basis
> lauch white mice into high orbit. (ok....1500 feet) It gave me
> great Joy to
> see my little friends blasted off the pad on top of a variety of
> lauch
snippies of the good old days
>
Why not launch mice??
Simple - eggs make a bigger mess !, even though they don't squeak as
the G-force crushes their lifeless little bodies......
Enjoy!
Steve Decker
square-jawed chief engineer of the LBP division
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Rick James
section my son likes to go for candy. He says it always tastes better
after it's been in space (or at least up a few hundred feet).
--
Rick James
3rd time BAR
NAR#73338
Level 0 - but building
John H. Cato, Jr.
Scott McCrate wrote
><sniparoonie>
>
>I'm not going to comment on the post itself except that I'll lay odds that
this
>will be one of the most long-playing threads in recent r.m.r history ;0)
I would imagine this depends on exactly *who* weighs into the discussion.
:)
As to an 'on-topic' response, my best guess as to the 'Mouse Ban' is the
potential for confusion with other (broadly) 'life forms' that populate this
hobby. Then again, maybe that is 'off-topic'.
Oh well....
-- john.
Dan Schneider
<1415c574...@usw-ex0101-007.remarq.com>...
>Simple - eggs make a bigger mess !, even though they don't squeak as
>the G-force crushes their lifeless little bodies......
Aside from the "cruelty" aspect of the issue, there is a less obvious reason
why not to do it. If the ASPCA got wind of it, they would raise holy hell.
Another kind of publicity this hobby doesn't need on top of the BATF
struggles and fools blowing their hands off.
Dan Schneider
Poseidon@Rocketryonline
http://home.postnet.com/~poseidon
Bob Kaplow
> Ok ok, I admit it.... as a Lad, I used to, an quite a regular basis
> lauch white mice into high orbit. (ok....1500 feet) It gave me great Joy to
> see my little friends blasted off the pad on top of a variety of lauch
> stage, but we won't talk about that one.. Even more enjoyable was watching
> the furry little buggers float gently back to earth inclosed in a home built
> padded, ventilated capusle. And you know out of i would guess 40 flights. I
> lost one mouse (three stage) and I never EVER had any type of injuries or
> DOA mice on landing...
>
> So years pass, And now, As I begin to Dabble in Model rockets once again
> I see a rocket called OMOLIOD or something like that.. it looked like a
> perfect mouse laucher... But then I remembed reading some poop about It not
> being "Nice or humane" to shoot these little buggers into space....
>
>
> I'm Sorry, and I am sure this will start a fight, but GIVE ME A BREAK!
> Like its "Nice Or Humane" to Feed these little critters to a SNAKE!
> If I were to get the choice between being crushed to death and then
> ingested and pooped out and a month, or Getting to be one of the select few
> mice chosen to be Pioners in the Space race... I belive a few seconds of
> insane thrust followed by a nice lofty ride back to earth beats getting
> eaten any day....
>
> So tell me How may of you have shot a mouse up? maybe not in your adult
> life, but come on, who hasen't thought. I wish I was that mouse....
>
> DOWN WITH THE MOUSE BAN!
>
> Thanks
I fully support this idea. Once we have mice in space, we'll need to start
lofting CATS to deal with them :-)
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Ctrl-Alt-Del"
Kaplow Klips: http://members.aol.com/myhprcato/KaplowKlips.html (baffle too!)
NIRA: http://www.nira.chicago.il.us NAR: http://www.nar.org
SPAM: spamr...@ChooseYourmail.com u...@ftc.gov postm...@127.0.0.1
Bob Kaplow
> As to an 'on-topic' response, my best guess as to the 'Mouse Ban' is the
> potential for confusion with other (broadly) 'life forms' that populate this
> hobby. Then again, maybe that is 'off-topic'.
The mouse ban is relatively new. When I started in this hobby, the safety
code only had 10 points, and there was no prohibition against critter
lofting. In fact the forst or second issue of "Model Rocketry" magazine,
back in 1968, had a letter from someone who had launched TWO Gerbils on an F
cluster rocket. The guy was from new mexico, and named James P. Miller. Yup,
the same J Pat Miller who would be come NAR president less than a decade
later.
The Brain
<snip>
> DOWN WITH THE MOUSE BAN!
>
> Thanks
>
> someone that may or may not send the first mouse to the moon.
>
> P.S. I consider myself an animal lover.
I take a very dim view of anybody who attempts to fly a lab mouse in a
rocket without first having obtained the mouse's consent.
Be warned. When I finally take over the world, you are on the short
list of those who shall be up against the wall.
--
The Brain
I shall eventually be your leader.
Get used to it.
The Brain
> someone that may or may not send the first mouse to the moon.
>
I have already been to the moon. And Mars.
Venus is still open.
Michael Akers
First off, I do support the No Animals ban that the model rocketry industry
has adopted. For the most part people will take an animal and subject it to
the forces and conditions of a rocket launch for no other reason than they
think it's way cool to do so. And not for anything that they may learn.
BUT .... (you knew this was coming, didn't you?)
I do support using mice or rats in this fashion if you are doing it for
scientific proposes.
i.e.:
1) You have, or are developing, an environmental support environment for
living creatures.
2) That your goal is to always bring back the creature alive and unharmed.
The death of the creature will be considered a failure at ALL times.
3) That you will keep meticulous and detailed records of your experiments.
4) You *WILL* publish your experiments on RMR along with all relevant data
for replication by other interested parties.
5) The *capsule* that the creature rides in will incorporate an escape
feature for releasing the creature after a specific amount of time. In case
recovery is delayed. Possible external environments may preclude release of
creature if it would be instantly hazardous or lethal to the creature.
6) You will, al all times, monitor the vitals of the creature. You will use
non intrusive methods. You will *NOT* use things like thermocouples inserted
into certain convenient orifices.
etc.
Side note:
If you are under the age of 18, then you *WILL* do all of this while under
supervision of an adult/science teacher at *ALL* times! Remember that you
are dealing with a life here, not a piece of hardware that you can throw
away at any time you chose. It's life is totaly dependent upon *your*
actions. For you adults, if you are in school *PLEASE* get with a life
sciences instructor. For those adults not in school, you will have to do a
*LOT* of reasearch prior to doing this, but it will be worth it.
All of you must remember one thing. There are people out there who will
oppose animal experimentation no matter how safe it is for the animal or how
valid the experiment. Just *BECAUSE*. Keep this *FIRMLY* in mind.
--
Michael Akers
M. Akers Enterprises
-----
"Meddle not in the affairs of Wizards, mortal ...
For thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup"
<emor...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:862057$8hd$1...@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net...
> DOWN WITH THE MOUSE BAN!
>
> Thanks
>
> sighed
> someone that may or may not send the first mouse to the moon.
>
>
Lewis Garrow
the description of the payload section on a rocket says that it is, among other things, for small biological
specimens!
steve_ruud
Kaplow) wrote:
>In article <862057$8hd$1...@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net>, <emor...@mindspring.com> writes:
>> DOWN WITH THE MOUSE BAN!
>>
>> Thanks
>
>I fully support this idea. Once we have mice in space, we'll need to start
>lofting CATS to deal with them :-)
>
ANd then we'll have to launch dogs to handle the cats.....
ANd then someone to feed the dogs...
and someone to save the cats...
then there will be whole colonies of humans living permanately in
space...
WHERE WILL THE MADNESS END???
:))
Lewis Garrow
the mouse.
Sandra Doyle wrote:
>
> As for picking one situation over the other, the mouse has no say in either,
> does it? Animals cannot reason in such things as a glorious death
> opposed to a common one. Personally, I don't care. Shoot the bloody
> mouse into orbit, go ahead. I feed the damn things to my snake, and I
> kill them myself first. Mice are food. Shoot a big mac into orbit, its
> just as poetic.
>
> ;-)
>
Stefan Jones
>
> I have a better idea, shoot the snake up! it has less reasoning ability than
> the mouse.
AND you can use a long, skinny payload section that's more
aerodynamically efficient than yer typical transition-to-bigger-capsule
payloader shape.
--
Stefan Jones, Certification, Interactive Television Division
650-506-1032
"The statements and opinions expressed here are my own and do not
necessarily represent those of Oracle Corporation."
Personal e-mail to: s...@aol.com - http://www.io.com/~stefanj/
Dan Schneider
>
>Don't care too much about the mice concept but it does pose a question
>to the current space program......
>I expect the current Shuttle, and previous manned launch vehicles had
>farily stringent bio isolation prior to launch, but has anyone heard of
>a manned mission being in progress and then finding a cockroach or
>similar "coming out of the woodwork". I look at the the problems most
>normal folks have of moving house, only to find a cockroach, or ant or
>something has "hitched a ride". Does NASA find they have similar
>problems? How do they prevent it? What are the effects?
>
>Des
I remember seeing something about a wood pecker problem they have with the
shuttle. (IIRC) Apparently they tend to like to sit on the external fuel
tank and peck holes in it. Being by the ocean, in swampland, I'm sure it's
impossible to keep "biological infestation" from happening.
Dan Schneider
>
>AND you can use a long, skinny payload section that's more
>aerodynamically efficient than yer typical transition-to-bigger-capsule
>payloader shape.
>
>--
>Stefan Jones, Certification, Interactive Television Division
Skip the BT's. Glass up a Boa and let her rip with a H128. Should have a
half-way decent coefficient of drag. The only thing I can't work out is
where to have it separate for the parachute.
Another strange thought arises from that line of thought...
Can you put Kaplow Klips on a rattler?
Would you use a copperhead to ignite a Copperhead?
Would a Garter use tumble recovery?
Will shifting the CG of a Cobra get it to glide ok?
Should we start a snake launching FAQ?
Will Wolf manage it too?
Dan (God, I have too much spare time on my hands!) Schneider
Poseidon@Rocketryonline
http://home.postnet.com/~poseidon(God, I have too much spare time on my
hands!)
Bob Kaplow
> Lewis Garrow wrote:
>>
>> I have a better idea, shoot the snake up! it has less reasoning ability than
>> the mouse.
>
> aerodynamically efficient than yer typical transition-to-bigger-capsule
> payloader shape.
So THAT is what Superrocs are for :-)
emor...@mindspring.com
Well, I belive from reading these posts that the majority of you think
blasting a mouse or two into high orbit every now and agian is ok...
As far as the Reasons for sending a Lab mouse up, the reasons are
many...
How about to test flight patterns on multi stage rockets that happen to
be carrying a payload that moves, (or at least shifts its weight)
When you get into the 3 and 4 stage set up, these stability issues
become more and more important.
In the Lag time between stages, the G forces return to almost normal
ratios and the little buggers shift there position in the payload area (a
modified tin can)
I hope someday to be able to train the little critters to push the
camera button on my astro-cam... (I hear if you get them hooked on drugs,
they will do anything for another hit!)....
Or better yet, I could design a real nifty set up where the mouse
(wearing a helmet and goggles of course) is ejected from the rocket a few
seconds before the picture is snapped, you know, like a action shot.....
Of course I am not into hurting the little furry thingys, and like I
said, I had one MIA out of like 30 or forty shots... I felt really bad,
there was no emegency escape hatch... poor little thing... After that I made
a section of the cabin out of thin cardboard (even a Clear wrap window one
one model) But Luckly they were never used.... The one that got away got
away because after the 2nd D burned out, The rocket, witch was almost out or
sight tilted. I'm not sure if the wind or the mouse did it, but then that
3rd D light up, Poof, it was gone. no smoke, no sound, no chute, It must
have hit the slip stream and just kept on going.... What a trooper, and he
didn't die in vain...
So I say DOWN WITH THE MOUSE BAN Follow me in Shooting a Mouse UP INTO
SPACE!....
I will Send Pictures if I decide to get that Omloid.
Thanks
Torey Kortz
scare the hell out of them, and that alone can harm them.
I won't even get into the harm that G forces can cause them. And what about
the possibility of a malfunction? Impact at terminal velocity can't be a
pleasant death. About your lost mouse on the 3-stager, dying in a capsule stuck
up a tree must have been pretty grim. I wonder if dehydration or starvation did
him in?
So, why not launch mice? Because it's mean, we're supposed to be decent people,
and WE KNOW BETTER. The snake you mention may give the mice an unpleasant
death, but he is part of the natural order. We aren't!
Besides, there are plenty of lower life forms suitable for launch. No one is
going to be too upset if a grasshopper or a centipede buys it in a crash.
-Dave Stout-
emor...@mindspring.com wrote:
> Ok ok, I admit it.... as a Lad, I used to, an quite a regular basis
> lauch white mice into high orbit. (ok....1500 feet) It gave me great Joy to
> see my little friends blasted off the pad on top of a variety of lauch
> vehicles. (one and two stage C and D size engines... one time a three
> stage, but we won't talk about that one.. Even more enjoyable was watching
> the furry little buggers float gently back to earth inclosed in a home built
> padded, ventilated capusle. And you know out of i would guess 40 flights. I
> lost one mouse (three stage) and I never EVER had any type of injuries or
> DOA mice on landing...
>
> So years pass, And now, As I begin to Dabble in Model rockets once again
> I see a rocket called OMOLIOD or something like that.. it looked like a
> perfect mouse laucher... But then I remembed reading some poop about It not
> being "Nice or humane" to shoot these little buggers into space....
>
> I'm Sorry, and I am sure this will start a fight, but GIVE ME A BREAK!
> Like its "Nice Or Humane" to Feed these little critters to a SNAKE!
> If I were to get the choice between being crushed to death and then
> ingested and pooped out and a month, or Getting to be one of the select few
> mice chosen to be Pioners in the Space race... I belive a few seconds of
> insane thrust followed by a nice lofty ride back to earth beats getting
> eaten any day....
>
> So tell me How may of you have shot a mouse up? maybe not in your adult
> life, but come on, who hasen't thought. I wish I was that mouse....
>
> DOWN WITH THE MOUSE BAN!
>
> Thanks
>
bad...@mindspring.com
>I say send the little bugger into orbit!!
>
>Neil
>
I couldn't decide what to think about this, so I went
upstairs and asked Dino, my 4 & 1/2 foot, 10 lb Savannah Monitor
lizard. He sez not to launch 'em, instead save them for him to
EAT..........
Bill Davenport
GAMMA NAR Section #494
NAR 72552 L-2
TRA 7758 L-2
AMA 28141
emor...@mindspring.com
of my Future Mouse lifter.... It will be far more advanced than my older
models...
hope you enjoy, and feel free to drop me a note if you have any additions or
ideas I may have forgot... To see these Plans please refer yourself to
Alt.Binaries.Models.rockets. And look for this same thread.
Thanks For all your support!
I will Update the group and maybe even scan a few photos of this renagade
event. That is If I ever get around to it...(I have a few pet mice
though......)
Ted Newcomb
loft" was a great idea. His Estes X-Ray was the payload vehicle of choice. We
wanted to study the effect of acceleration on the little critter. The X-Ray
burst off the launch pad, had a nice flight path, but then deployment left a
little (read that as "a lot") to be desired. Needless to say, we never did get
to study the effect of acceleration, but the results of deceleration were very
clear indeed with the lawn dart approach to landing.
Not proud of the experiment...but haven't felt the urge to do it again, either.
--
Ted Newcomb
roam...@enter.net
ICQ# 4580073
~~~~~
Live with intention. Walk to the edge.
Listen hard. Practice wellness. Play with abandon.
Laugh.
Choose with no regret. Continue to learn.
Appreciate your friends.
Do what you love. Live...as if this is all there is!
-Mary Anne Hershey
Vince
launched that sucker on an A8-5 (maybe it was a something?-7?
I seem to remember it was a LONG delay upper stage engine,
and I had grave doubts it would eject in time). But, it was the
only engine I had left, so up she went....
Needless to say, it didn't eject in time, and the X-Ray lawn
darted into the ground. The clear payload section burst along
the longitudinal axis, making a nice "POP" when it hit, and
I thought the fly would survive, but I actually found the him dead,
lying in the grass a few inches away, curled up in "the position"
(all 6 legs crossed - just how the hell do bugs know they're
supposed to die like this, anyway?)
I forgot my point.
Oh, yeah.... if your mouse-o-naut lawndarts, I don't think it'll
be a pretty sight. Not a good impression on the kiddies (and
their moms) who witness the event.
"Ted Newcomb" <roam...@enter.net> wrote in message news:38852AC0...@enter.net...
Rich Shepherd
Michael Akers wrote:
> First off, I do support the No Animals ban that the model rocketry industry
> has adopted. For the most part people will take an animal and subject it to
> the forces and conditions of a rocket launch for no other reason than they
> think it's way cool to do so. And not for anything that they may learn.
>
So your point is? You obvious have never heard the dog across the street barking
at all hours of the night! Im having fantasies of a M-1939 & a 5-1/2"
airframe(yep he will
fit) And a launch angle of 40deg.
Rich...
PS: If he is missing on the weekend of our next launch, I swear I had nothing to
do with it!
>
>
Martin L. Schrader
6.Payloads. My model rocket will never carry live animals
(except insects)
or a payload that is intended to be flammable, explosive,
or harmful.
Now, who came up with this pile?!? I remember back in "the days" when the
safety code said you couldn't launch anything living, period. Everybody
thought it was a crock even then. Now they go make it more palatable for
kiddies who are launching bugs anyway?
Oh, and "harmful" to whom? Or possibly to what? Hey, man -- any of my
medium F and G powered stuff could be pretty durn "harmful" to any parked
car that happened to get in the way of a streamline. Eh?
So, maybe some of these rules should be reevaluated? Who does that? Oh,
wait -- sorry, I forgot. I allowed my NAR membership to expire. After all,
Tripoli is for adults who don't bother worrying about launching bugs.
--
Marty S.
Up and Over...
John S
too.
I have an old three button serial mouse you can use.
JS
> Ok ok, I admit it.... as a Lad, I used to, an quite a regular basis
> lauch white mice into high orbit. (ok....1500 feet) It gave me great Joy
to
>
Larry Smith
> Hell, just stuff the mouse into Coke can and shake the can up and down rapidly
> by hand, you'll get more "science" out of it that way.
>
> And you can also simulate what happens to a mouse when an ejection charge
> fails, or engine kicks, by hitting the can with a sledgehammer.
>
> After all, you already decided to do it for no legitimate purpose so just stop
> trying to invent a bogus "feel-good-because-it's-for-science" excuse.
George, how many mice and other animals are sacrificed
every year in high-school biolabs for no more scientific
"excuse" than this? Replicating the work of others who
have gone before _is_ one way in which science continually
checks itself, it's what students do to _learn_ science.
It's why you can buy dead animals of all kinds, most of
them far more cuddly and worthy than any mouse, in bio-
supply catalogs in any high school, killed for you and
preserved for your "scientific" education. Do you expect
every dead cat to make some new contribution to science
in this manner?
Politics is one thing, but this is utter nonsense. Mice
are vermin. Nothing more, nothing less. If their sac-
rifice can be made to serve some education purpose - even
a primarily-for-entertainment-type education purpose -
then I say, have at it. I've had too many of the damn
things chewing wires and leaving turds all over the house
to have much sympathy for them.
The mouse ban is PR. Period. Leave it at that and don't
try to justify it further.
--
.-. .-. .---. .---. .-..-. | Never, ever underestimate
| |__ / | \| |-< | |-< > / | the power of stupid people
`----'`-^-'`-'`-'`-'`-' `-' | in large groups.
My opinions only. |
Des Bromilow
Don't care too much about the mice concept but it does pose a question
to the current space program......
I expect the current Shuttle, and previous manned launch vehicles had
farily stringent bio isolation prior to launch, but has anyone heard of
a manned mission being in progress and then finding a cockroach or
similar "coming out of the woodwork". I look at the the problems most
normal folks have of moving house, only to find a cockroach, or ant or
something has "hitched a ride". Does NASA find they have similar
problems? How do they prevent it? What are the effects?
Des
emor...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> Ok ok, I admit it.... as a Lad, I used to, an quite a regular basis
> lauch white mice into high orbit. (ok....1500 feet) It gave me great Joy to
> see my little friends blasted off the pad on top of a variety of lauch
> vehicles. (one and two stage C and D size engines... one time a three
> stage, but we won't talk about that one.. Even more enjoyable was watching
> the furry little buggers float gently back to earth inclosed in a home built
> padded, ventilated capusle. And you know out of i would guess 40 flights. I
> lost one mouse (three stage) and I never EVER had any type of injuries or
> DOA mice on landing...
>
> So years pass, And now, As I begin to Dabble in Model rockets once again
> I see a rocket called OMOLIOD or something like that.. it looked like a
> perfect mouse laucher... But then I remembed reading some poop about It not
> being "Nice or humane" to shoot these little buggers into space....
>
> I'm Sorry, and I am sure this will start a fight, but GIVE ME A BREAK!
> Like its "Nice Or Humane" to Feed these little critters to a SNAKE!
> If I were to get the choice between being crushed to death and then
> ingested and pooped out and a month, or Getting to be one of the select few
> mice chosen to be Pioners in the Space race... I belive a few seconds of
> insane thrust followed by a nice lofty ride back to earth beats getting
> eaten any day....
>
> So tell me How may of you have shot a mouse up? maybe not in your adult
> life, but come on, who hasen't thought. I wish I was that mouse....
>
> DOWN WITH THE MOUSE BAN!
>
> Thanks
>
> sighed
> someone that may or may not send the first mouse to the moon.
>
> P.S. I consider myself an animal lover.
--
Des Bromilow
Queensland Rocketry Association
Brisbane
Australia
"Inner Child" be darned... I'm having WAY too much fun rediscovering
my "Inner Teenager"!!! dyb 11/2/99
Email addresses: des.br...@citec.com.auV2 and
desbr...@primus.com.auV2
remove the German anti-spam device before replying.
GCGassaway
be carrying a payload that moves, (or at least shifts its weight)<<<
Hell, just stuff the mouse into Coke can and shake the can up and down rapidly
by hand, you'll get more "science" out of it that way.
And you can also simulate what happens to a mouse when an ejection charge
fails, or engine kicks, by hitting the can with a sledgehammer.
After all, you already decided to do it for no legitimate purpose so just stop
trying to invent a bogus "feel-good-because-it's-for-science" excuse.
- George Gassway
Neil Tarasoff
Neil Tarasoff
P.S. Snakes eat them alive in the wild.
Neil Tarasoff
Sandra Doyle wrote:
>
> Just to elaborate on the mouse/snake thing, it is common practice to
> kill the mouse before feeding it to the snake. Idealy, the mouse should
> be killed in a humane way, not sure if that always happens, thou. And,
> the reason for feeding pre-killed prey is so that the snake is not harmed
> by a struggling victim. A mouse, rat, rabbit, chicken, can do a lot of
> damage before its finally eaten. If a snake is not hungry it will not go
> after the prey, and then could very well become the victim itself.
>
> As for picking one situation over the other, the mouse has no say in either,
> does it? Animals cannot reason in such things as a glorious death
> opposed to a common one. Personally, I don't care. Shoot the bloody
> mouse into orbit, go ahead. I feed the damn things to my snake, and I
> kill them myself first. Mice are food. Shoot a big mac into orbit, its
> just as poetic.
>
> ;-)
>
> --
> Sandra Doyle
> *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
> I'm not a bitch, but I play one on the internet.
> *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
> Disclaimer: These are my opinions only. But I share.
> Visit my web page: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~sdoyle/
Michael Akers
news:3884F4F9...@mediaone.net...
> Why not? Because they're just poor, dumb little creatures. It's certain
to
> scare the hell out of them, and that alone can harm them.
>
So?
> I won't even get into the harm that G forces can cause them. And what
about
> the possibility of a malfunction? Impact at terminal velocity can't be a
> pleasant death.
Pleasant or not it would be extreamly quick.
> About your lost mouse on the 3-stager, dying in a capsule stuck
> up a tree must have been pretty grim. I wonder if dehydration or
starvation did
> him in?
> So, why not launch mice? Because it's mean, we're supposed to be decent
people,
> and WE KNOW BETTER. The snake you mention may give the mice an unpleasant
> death, but he is part of the natural order. We aren't!
Umm.... Dave or Torey or whatever your name is, JUST WHAT PLANET WERE YOU
BORN ON? Man is on the pinnacle of the natural order of things as far as
THIS planet goes.
>
> Besides, there are plenty of lower life forms suitable for launch. No one
is
> going to be too upset if a grasshopper or a centipede buys it in a crash.
>
No one that I know would get to upset if a mouse gets killed for any reason.
Mice rate right up there with the rat and cockroach for the top pest of
mankind. We will never, ever be able to kill them all!
Mike Akers
> -Dave Stout-
Dave/Kristin Hall
: So tell me How may of you have shot a mouse up? maybe not in your adult
: life, but come on, who hasen't thought. I wish I was that mouse....
routinely. Don't anymore. Why? Well, it has nothing to do with
cruelty to animals (what a crock!) and everything to do with my lack
of inspiration when it comes time to actually catch a lizard.
--
David Hall
Propulsion Geek At Large
The Tellurian
Just out of curiosity I live capture mice which occasionally infest the house. I
notice though that they crap all over the trap once they realize their
predicament. These are the little brown guys not white lab mice. My question is
do you make little plastic diapers for them or do you let them dump in your
payload bay? Or do you have a way to get them to go first? After all the most
horrifying thing about going into space or even the free fall of a rocket flight
is dealing with a free floating do-do.
On Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:18:01 -0500, <emor...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ok ok, I admit it.... as a Lad, I used to, an quite a regular basis
>lauch white mice into high orbit. (ok....1500 feet) It gave me great Joy to
>see my little friends blasted off the pad on top of a variety of lauch
>vehicles. (one and two stage C and D size engines... one time a three
>stage, but we won't talk about that one.. Even more enjoyable was watching
>the furry little buggers float gently back to earth inclosed in a home built
>padded, ventilated capusle. And you know out of i would guess 40 flights. I
>lost one mouse (three stage) and I never EVER had any type of injuries or
>DOA mice on landing...
>
> So years pass, And now, As I begin to Dabble in Model rockets once again
>I see a rocket called OMOLIOD or something like that.. it looked like a
>perfect mouse laucher... But then I remembed reading some poop about It not
>being "Nice or humane" to shoot these little buggers into space....
>
>
> I'm Sorry, and I am sure this will start a fight, but GIVE ME A BREAK!
>Like its "Nice Or Humane" to Feed these little critters to a SNAKE!
> If I were to get the choice between being crushed to death and then
>ingested and pooped out and a month, or Getting to be one of the select few
>mice chosen to be Pioners in the Space race... I belive a few seconds of
>insane thrust followed by a nice lofty ride back to earth beats getting
>eaten any day....
>
> So tell me How may of you have shot a mouse up? maybe not in your adult
>life, but come on, who hasen't thought. I wish I was that mouse....
>
Robert Huggins
into the various apartments and houses that I've inhabited but I guess my
question would be "what's the point?" I figure I'll enjoy spending some
time with the solder gun and launch some electronics gizmo than a mouse.
I'm more interested in measuring g forces/altitude/temperature, or recording
audio/video or testing out that magnetic sensor in Sport Rocketry. My two
cents...
Rob
--
You'll have to remove the nonsense from
my email address to use it...
****************
<emor...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:862057$8hd$1...@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net...
>
>
> Ok ok, I admit it.... as a Lad, I used to, an quite a regular basis
> lauch white mice into high orbit. (ok....1500 feet)
<big snip>
Robert Iannucci
Robert Iannucci <----- Will stick with the No Critter Policy (But Cats are
Free Game)
NAR #75375 L2 Sr Insured <--------In case I'm hit by a falling mouse.
Tanker 06
Hold it.... I gotta go get the video camera for
"America's Funniest Videos".... :-)
Dave/Kristin Hall
: I thought the fly would survive, but I actually found the him dead,
: lying in the grass a few inches away, curled up in "the position"
: (all 6 legs crossed - just how the hell do bugs know they're
: supposed to die like this, anyway?)
I don't *know* if it's true for insects, but for spiders....They only have
muscles to pull their legs inward. The outward (stretching) action is
accomplished by blood pressure - their legs just inflate like party blowers.
So when a spider dies, there is no blood pressure to straighten a leg when
it suffers any twitch/spasm during the death throws. As a result, a dead
spider will have all 8 legs pulled in. I can't imagine it's that different
for insects.
Note: If you hit a bug with a torch (thus boiling their blood and giving
them all sorts of blood pressure), they die with their legs *straight* out.
Try it! (Black Widows do it the best. Big abdomen to supply lots of blood
to boil coupled with long skinny legs.)
Amazing the stupid crap you'll see on RMR sometimes, eh?
Chris Taylor Jr.
to mind
I cam just see an RC airplane piloted by a mouse
Controls that max out so he can not go out of control but I wonder if one
could be trained for that? How would it be trained to aim for something is
the question
Obviosuly this would not be a rocket glider but a regular glider Electric
maybe.
I think even a low G (G force not impulse) rocket launch would scare the
begesses out of any mouse and it would be in no shape to pilot :-)
Here is what I think of when Someone asks to launch a mouse I say OK I will
pull out my M powered rocket 20 feet tall and stick you inside. (no I don't
have one) but it disuades them very quickly.
Safe or not a 6 g minumum launch is more G than the astronauts undergo (3 I
think) and I could NOT see putting a cute little critter through that kind
of torture Remember he can not exactly tell you afterward HEY that HURT and
scared the HELL OUT OF ME so how do you know it does not hurt?
--
This post was spell checked please forward all spelling complaints to
www.microsoft.com
-----
Trust me you can Mail me without Mods
Chris
http://www.nerys.com/rocketry/
http://www.nerys.com/myjeep/
---
---
GCGassaway <gcgas...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000118190938...@ng-cu1.aol.com...
Viralex
people,
> and WE KNOW BETTER. The snake you mention may give the mice an unpleasant
> death, but he is part of the natural order. We aren't!
Hey, wake up ! Look around you !
It's part of the natural order for human to destroy the nature around him...
> Besides, there are plenty of lower life forms suitable for launch. No one
is
> going to be too upset if a grasshopper or a centipede buys it in a crash.
Why would a grasshopper' life have less value than a mouse' live?
Steve Decker
> snippage of "animal rights" BS
> unpleasant
> death, but he is part of the natural order. We aren't!
Pardon me ?!?
People aren't part of the natural order ???
Speak for yourself, bud
Steve Decker
square-jawed chief engineer of the patternmaking division
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Lewis Garrow
Bruce124
rockets, stages, payloads, cones, M5's, shoots or anything else. If these
imaginary things you speak of are the only things you get
off, you all need to really get a life.
You can always take a C, D or hell, even a Z size engine, stick it up your ass
and blast yourself off. Do the rest of us very normal humans a big favor.
Besides, the little brown furry ones are very tasty in Brunswick Stew. IT's a
southern thing.
Lewis Garrow
The Tellurian wrote:
> Just out of curiosity I live capture mice which occationally infest the house. I
> notice though that they crap all over the trap once they realize their
> predicament. These are the little brown guys not white lab mice. My question is
> do you make little plastic dipers for them or do you let them dump in your
> payload bay? Or do you have a way to get them to go first? After all the most
> horrifing thing about going into space or even the free fall of a rocket flight
Lewis Garrow
nah don't try to deny it!
Dave/Kristin Hall wrote
Neil Tarasoff
Neil Tarasoff
The Tellurian wrote:
>
> This time with the spell checker on.
>
> Just out of curiosity I live capture mice which occasionally infest the house. I
> notice though that they crap all over the trap once they realize their
> predicament. These are the little brown guys not white lab mice. My question is
> do you make little plastic diapers for them or do you let them dump in your
> payload bay? Or do you have a way to get them to go first? After all the most
> horrifying thing about going into space or even the free fall of a rocket flight
> is dealing with a free floating do-do.
>
> On Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:18:01 -0500, <emor...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Ok ok, I admit it.... as a Lad, I used to, an quite a regular basis
> >lauch white mice into high orbit. (ok....1500 feet) It gave me great Joy to
> >see my little friends blasted off the pad on top of a variety of lauch
> >vehicles. (one and two stage C and D size engines... one time a three
> >stage, but we won't talk about that one.. Even more enjoyable was watching
> >the furry little buggers float gently back to earth inclosed in a home built
> >padded, ventilated capusle. And you know out of i would guess 40 flights. I
> >lost one mouse (three stage) and I never EVER had any type of injuries or
> >DOA mice on landing...
> >
> > So years pass, And now, As I begin to Dabble in Model rockets once again
> >I see a rocket called OMOLIOD or something like that.. it looked like a
> >perfect mouse laucher... But then I remembed reading some poop about It not
> >being "Nice or humane" to shoot these little buggers into space....
> >
> >
> > I'm Sorry, and I am sure this will start a fight, but GIVE ME A BREAK!
> >Like its "Nice Or Humane" to Feed these little critters to a SNAKE!
> > If I were to get the choice between being crushed to death and then
> >ingested and pooped out and a month, or Getting to be one of the select few
> >mice chosen to be Pioners in the Space race... I belive a few seconds of
> >insane thrust followed by a nice lofty ride back to earth beats getting
> >eaten any day....
> >
> > So tell me How may of you have shot a mouse up? maybe not in your adult
> >life, but come on, who hasen't thought. I wish I was that mouse....
> >
> >DOWN WITH THE MOUSE BAN!
> >
Neil Tarasoff
Boy that "squeeky the mouse" brings back memories. How about "Plunk your
magic twanger, Froggie". 8-)
Neil Tarasoff
Neil Tarasoff
I resent the fact that you call yourself a human being.
You speak like an "Ignorant". Clean up your language &
come back when you get a clue.
Hint: I do believe you are the kind of person who would
go to 7-11 to try to buy said clue. ;-)
Go to your room & think about your use of language.
Neil Tarasoff
PeteAlway
There are less and less places to fly rockets, and a continuous threat of
people misunderstanding model rocketry as basement bombing. Model rocketry can
only thrive when the "outside world" allows it. More and more of the open land
we can fly from is under the control of local governments--city councils, parks
boards, or whatever. Hobby rocketry exists in many places, including Michigan,
as a nice little educational exemption to the fireworks laws that was carved
out back in the 1960's.
To the extent that model rocketry is percieved as basement bombing and animal
torture for kicks, those state exemptions in the fireworks laws and those
permissions to use parks and open spaces will dry up.
If we let model rocketry *become* a hobby of basement bombing and animal
torture for kicks, we'll deserve what we get.
Finding a cure for cancer, feeding a snake, or even removing destructive pests
are honest purposes for killing mice. Real, honest-to-goodness science
education surely counts. But getting some vicarious thrill out of the chance
of squishing a mouse in a lawn dart, and letting out belly laughs over the
remains--well, it just ain't right. Pure and simple. I know it, you know it
(you probably knew it when you were 12, but were so borrrrred, you didn't
care), the people who write up your club launch in the local paper know it, the
people who would raise a stink about it at your local parks department know it,
the people who decide if model rocketry is allowed at your local parks know it,
the people who would raise a stink about it with your state legislature know
it, your state legislators know it.
Peter Alway
Saturn Press
PO Box 3709
Ann Arbor, MI 48106-3709
http://members.aol.com/satrnpress/saturn.htm
Free scale data at:
http://personal.physics.lsa.umich.edu/alway/space_rocket.htm
doug holverson
> From: "Chris Taylor Jr." <nos...@nerys.com>
> Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
> Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 06:05:58 GMT
> Subject: Re: Launching mice as payload. WHY NOT?
>
> launching a mouse it something I would NEVER do but it does bring a vision
> to mind
>
> I cam just see an RC airplane piloted by a mouse
>
> Controls that max out so he can not go out of control but I wonder if one
> could be trained for that? How would it be trained to aim for something is
> the question
>
> Obviosuly this would not be a rocket glider but a regular glider Electric
> maybe.
>
> I think even a low G (G force not impulse) rocket launch would scare the
> begesses out of any mouse and it would be in no shape to pilot :-)
>
> Here is what I think of when Someone asks to launch a mouse I say OK I will
> pull out my M powered rocket 20 feet tall and stick you inside. (no I don't
> have one) but it disuades them very quickly.
>
> Safe or not a 6 g minumum launch is more G than the astronauts undergo (3 I
> think) and I could NOT see putting a cute little critter through that kind
> of torture Remember he can not exactly tell you afterward HEY that HURT and
> scared the HELL OUT OF ME so how do you know it does not hurt?
>
Back during World War II, B.F. Skinner suggested training pigeons (using his
style of behavior conditioning) to guide weapons to their targets. Anyway,
the idea was too unpopular to be used.
-DGH-
Leonard Fehskens
>How about "Plunk your magic twanger, Froggie". 8-)
"I'll be good, I will, I will!"
len.
Azstrummer
>
>Robert Iannucci <----- Will stick with the No Critter Policy (But Cats are
>Free Game)
Cats. Now you've gotten my interest. Couldn't we let their legs stick out the
back of the rocket? Surely the rocket would always land fin first then.
Art Martin
bob fortune
doug holverson wrote:
>
> >
> Back during World War II, B.F. Skinner suggested training pigeons (using his
> style of behavior conditioning) to guide weapons to their targets. Anyway,
> the idea was too unpopular to be used.
>
> -DGH-
Why use pigeons when humans are that much more effective?
Cases in point:
Baka
Kamikaze
Fukuryuu frogmen
Funny how different nations have different outlooks on ways to achieve
life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Bob
Group 747
Torey Kortz wrote:
>
> Why not? Because they're just poor, dumb little creatures. It's certain to
> scare the hell out of them, and that alone can harm them.
> Besides, there are plenty of lower life forms suitable for launch. No one is
> going to be too upset if a grasshopper or a centipede buys it in a crash.
Uh oh, here we go. I think this is where the troll was intended to go.
Can it be stopped? Or are we in for a millemium long discussion of
animal rights, cat flights, dog fights, grisley sights and ant
astronauts in mighty mights.
Steve Bloom
Mario Perdue
wrote:
>I believe you insert a tiny cork in the back end of the mousie! 8-)
>
Corks are such a temporary solution. I use CA.
Mario
NAR #22012, L1
http://www.L4software.com/amorea
"X-ray-Delta-One, this is Mission Control, two-one-five-six, transmission concluded."
Fred Shecter
That's a pretty "swift" idea.
Of course, they would have to be labelled "Dolphin Safe".
-Shread Vector NRA #1 Paramount Leader
"Azstrummer" <azstr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000119110039...@ng-fb1.aol.com...
Bob Kaplow
> I remember seeing something about a wood pecker problem they have with the
> shuttle. (IIRC) Apparently they tend to like to sit on the external fuel
> tank and peck holes in it. Being by the ocean, in swampland, I'm sure it's
> impossible to keep "biological infestation" from happening.
Some of those 'peckers are still in my neighborhood :-(
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Ctrl-Alt-Del"
Kaplow Klips: http://members.aol.com/myhprcato/KaplowKlips.html (baffle too!)
NIRA: http://www.nira.chicago.il.us NAR: http://www.nar.org
SPAM: spamr...@ChooseYourmail.com u...@ftc.gov postm...@127.0.0.1
Chris Taylor Jr.
I say if you buy it to launch it shame on you
IF YOU CATCH it in your house and launch it as penance for chewing things in
your house
Hmm I will have to think about that one :-)
--
This post was spell checked please forward all spelling complaints to
www.microsoft.com
-----
Trust me you can Mail me without Mods
Larry Smith <la...@smith-house.org> wrote in message
news:38853801...@smith-house.org...
> GCGassaway wrote:
>
> > Hell, just stuff the mouse into Coke can and shake the can up and down
rapidly
> > by hand, you'll get more "science" out of it that way.
> >
> > And you can also simulate what happens to a mouse when an ejection
charge
> > fails, or engine kicks, by hitting the can with a sledgehammer.
> >
> > After all, you already decided to do it for no legitimate purpose so
just stop
> > trying to invent a bogus "feel-good-because-it's-for-science" excuse.
>
> George, how many mice and other animals are sacrificed
> every year in high-school biolabs for no more scientific
> "excuse" than this? Replicating the work of others who
> have gone before _is_ one way in which science continually
> checks itself, it's what students do to _learn_ science.
> It's why you can buy dead animals of all kinds, most of
> them far more cuddly and worthy than any mouse, in bio-
> supply catalogs in any high school, killed for you and
> preserved for your "scientific" education. Do you expect
> every dead cat to make some new contribution to science
> in this manner?
>
> Politics is one thing, but this is utter nonsense. Mice
> are vermin. Nothing more, nothing less. If their sac-
> rifice can be made to serve some education purpose - even
> a primarily-for-entertainment-type education purpose -
> then I say, have at it. I've had too many of the damn
> things chewing wires and leaving turds all over the house
> to have much sympathy for them.
>
> The mouse ban is PR. Period. Leave it at that and don't
> try to justify it further.
>
> --
> .-. .-. .---. .---. .-..-. | Never, ever underestimate
> | |__ / | \| |-< | |-< > / | the power of stupid people
> `----'`-^-'`-'`-'`-'`-' `-' | in large groups.
> My opinions only. |
>
Chris Taylor Jr.
Bob Kaplow
> Quoted from the NAR Model Rocketry Safety Code:
>
> 6.Payloads. My model rocket will never carry live animals
>
> (except insects)
>
> or a payload that is intended to be flammable, explosive,
> or harmful.
>
> Now, who came up with this pile?!? I remember back in "the days" when the
> safety code said you couldn't launch anything living, period. Everybody
> thought it was a crock even then. Now they go make it more palatable for
> kiddies who are launching bugs anyway?
>
> Oh, and "harmful" to whom? Or possibly to what? Hey, man -- any of my
> medium F and G powered stuff could be pretty durn "harmful" to any parked
> car that happened to get in the way of a streamline. Eh?
>
> So, maybe some of these rules should be reevaluated? Who does that? Oh,
> wait -- sorry, I forgot. I allowed my NAR membership to expire. After all,
> Tripoli is for adults who don't bother worrying about launching bugs.
> --
> Marty S.
Sorry, Marty, but Tripoli's got essentially the same juvenile rule against
launching animals:
II.Do not fly a vertebrate animal in a high power rocker. [sic]
I guess you'll have to try the IAR or the SIAR or the NRA next...
Stefan Jones
>
> I modestly propose using real fins from fish (or sharks) for rocket fins.
> That's a pretty "swift" idea.
Oohhh, cool idea!
You could go to a local fish market with a knife and a cooler full of
ice, snip fins off the discarded carcasses, and tell people who ask you
what the hell you're doing that it's a "Performance Art Thing, like, you
know?" Because it you told them you're going to be using the fins to
build rockets they'd probably have your hauled away...
I wonder what the best way to prepare the fins would be? Drying them too
fast might make them brown and brittle. Coating them with water-proof
clearcoat might seal in moisture and agents of decomposition. Perhaps:
Wash thoroughly, including a scrub-down with sodium bicarbonate.
Soak in a water-soluable acrylic, or perhaps diluted white glue.
Dry slowly, in a cool dry place.
> Of course, they would have to be labelled "Dolphin Safe".
That would make a nice NAME for the rocket.
--
Stefan Jones, Certification, Interactive Television Division
650-506-1032
"The statements and opinions expressed here are my own and do not
necessarily represent those of Oracle Corporation."
Personal e-mail to: s...@aol.com - http://www.io.com/~stefanj/
Bruce Kirchner
>How about "Plunk your
>magic twanger, Froggie"
Hey Neil, you must be from Parma! :-)
Anyone else remember "The Great Ghoulardi aka The Ghoul?
--
Bruce Kirchner
TRA L2 #5888 NAR #69850
Michigan Team 1 HUVARS
Visit My Rocketry Home Page - http://members.aol.com/balthezar/index.html
Proud Gun Owner!
Lewis Garrow
Neil was quoting from Andy's Gang (I've got a gang, you've got a gang,
everybody's got to have a gang..but there's only one real gang for me, GOOD
OLD ANDY'S GANG!)
Froggy the Gremlin
Squeaky the Mouse
Midnight the Cat
I'm old, old I say, damn!
Andy Eng
>>>> How about to test flight patterns on multi stage rockets that happen to
>be carrying a payload that moves, (or at least shifts its weight)<<<
>
>Hell, just stuff the mouse into Coke can and shake the can up and down rapidly
>by hand, you'll get more "science" out of it that way.
>
>And you can also simulate what happens to a mouse when an ejection charge
>fails, or engine kicks, by hitting the can with a sledgehammer.
>
>After all, you already decided to do it for no legitimate purpose so just stop
>trying to invent a bogus "feel-good-because-it's-for-science" excuse.
>
>- George Gassway
As some of you may know, we down here off the Gulf of Mexico have
these cock roaches that's about the size of mice. There's quite an
industry out there to exterminate these things. If you accidently
step on one after a couple of brews with the buddies, chances are
you'll pull a groin muscle as the guts are real slippery so that its
like slipping on ice. I'll admit to baiting them out in the yard
with a bananna peel and using them for air pistol target practice.
Back to rocketry - I would detest having to catch a corp of these
pests but would feel good seeing them get launched in a fleet of BT-50
F101T powered ship.
There...
I've finally posted to a goofy thread having resisted such all winter.
Andy (waiting for spring fever season) Eng
Neil Tarasoff
How about when the Chef was trying to prepare a recipe & froggy would
drive
him crazy by inserting words as he was working! He would get all
flustered & run off SCREAMING.
Andy's gang brings back great images of a simpler time.
Neil
Fred Shecter
(with the fins) in your Dolphin Safe.
Yes, I said that on porpose.
-Shread Vector NRA #1 Paramount Leader
"Stefan Jones" <sej...@us.oracle.com> wrote in message
news:3885FFEB...@us.oracle.com...
Torey Kortz
I really can't tell if you are kidding or for real, only you know for certain.
However, if you do launch mice please (at least) be certain to make a foolproof
recovery system and launch where you can recover the little critters.
I wish you'd just launch bugs, I've got a basement full of stuff at work that
we'd love to see put in orbit (centipedes, sow bugs, etc.) {:^)>
-Dave Stout-
emor...@mindspring.com wrote:
> OK, OK.... due to overwhelming response, I have Whipped up a Rough estimate
> of my Future Mouse lifter.... It will be far more advanced than my older
> models...
>
> hope you enjoy, and feel free to drop me a note if you have any additions or
> ideas I may have forgot... To see these Plans please refer yourself to
> Alt.Binaries.Models.rockets. And look for this same thread.
>
> Thanks For all your support!
>
> I will Update the group and maybe even scan a few photos of this renagade
> event. That is If I ever get around to it...(I have a few pet mice
> though......)
Torey Kortz
I think you are at the wrong discussion group; the Maladjusted Losers discussion
group must be sorely missing your input right now.
Got yourself a pretty serious "hunter, killer" superiority complex don't you?
Who do you think you are; going off on me because I mention my opinion about
the morality of torture? I was civil in my response to the original post. And
its author did elicit our opinions.
I think we don't have the right to torture anything BECAUSE we are at the top of
the evolutionary heap. If you've got to kill mice, use a trap. SNAP, done. Why
do you get off on suffering? Is your next trick going to be pulling the wings
off flies? Instead, why don't you pull the fins off a Mosquito? Just be sure
you're alone when you launch it. Come to think of it, someone of your social
skills is probably alone all the time anyway.
> >Umm.... Dave or Torey or whatever your name is, JUST WHAT PLANET WERE YOU
> BORN ON? Man is on the pinnacle of the natural order of things as far as
> THIS planet goes.<
>
> FWIW, I'm Dave. Torey's the computer whiz and it's her account. If you had
> any clue about how people write to news groups, you'd know who's who from the
> fact that I placed my name at the bottom. So simple, a child can figure it
> out!
>
> >No one that I know would get to upset if a mouse gets killed for any reason.
> Mice rate right up there with the rat and cockroach for the top pest of
> mankind. We will never, ever be able to kill them all!<
Well, I hope you had fun blowing up at me. If you flame me again, especially
since I've done NOTHING WRONG, I won't hesitate to make you look like the fool
you are. Hope to see you in the Darwin Awards, -Dave Stout-
> >Mike Akers<
>
Beanboy
> There's nothing natural about how humans wreck everything around them. I come
> from Maine, and I've seen clearcut loggers and real estate developers destroy
> and destroy until I want to puke. Rocketeers are an exceptional group; do we
> need to jump on the destruction bandwagon too!? Not on my time.
Well, I'm sure some environmental group could get on your case for releasing an
interesting chemical mix into the atmosphere, especially composite motors. What
are those oxidized products again?
Oh, there's an idea: Tubes and motor casing that are made from recycled paper
products, water-based organic paints, and balsa from sustainable forests. A
natural rubber shock cord and a cotton shrouds/parachute and you are good to go!
Propellant would be a bit tougher. AP would be out, BP maybe..
water/air-pressure maybe? Big hit in CA! Tehee
-Beanboy
keywest12
motors. I built a scratch rocket, with a G force absorbing payload
section ( Tube within a tube, rubber bungees....) and decided to embark
on critter lofting. the flight was a glory to behold.. up, up, and away.
and quick, too!! all was well untill ejection, when the chute separated.
Mouse survived the impact, but was never "quite the same. it never ate
again, and tho there was an ample supply of water, it became very
emaciated. after about two weeks, it finally gave up the ghost.
I guess i'll never find out whether the G force affected it
adversely, i know that the free fall had minimal effect. Could be that
sudden stop, tho...
Just a posit... does a 2 kg rat qualify as a payload for the CATS
prize ?
Steve Coleman
TRA #6416
ILLIGITIMI NON CARBORUNDUM !!!
Henry J. Ball
are
> >Free Game)
>
> Cats. Now you've gotten my interest. Couldn't we let their legs stick out
the
> back of the rocket? Surely the rocket would always land fin first then.
>
> Art Martin
Hey now, what if we cut the feet off the cat first (would save on weight)
and then epoxy them to the back of the fins. Would the rocket still land on
all 4 fins? What if the rocket only had 3 fins? Which 3 feet would you
use?
Henry Ball
Not for the Humor Impaired
Dave Lyle
>
> On Tue, 18 Jan 2000 23:46:12 GMT, Torey Kortz <To...@mediaone.net>
> Wrote:
>
> >Why not? Because they're just poor, dumb little creatures. It's certain to
> >scare the hell out of them, and that alone can harm them.
>
> depressed, apathy towards cheese, reduced desire to breed.
Back in 8th grade (about 100 years ago) I built a mouse-launcher.
Bought a white mouse from the pet store and gave him a ride to a few
hundred feet in a well padded payload bay. He seemed to enjoy it.
Time came for the second mouse launch. Don't recall why, but I went to
the pet store and bought a second white mouse (perhaps I was planning a
'Gemini' mission) and flew that mouse too.
Placed the second mouse in the cage with the first one to let the new
mousetranaut get to know the old mousetranaut. A short time later I had
a cage full of budding Junior mousetranauts -- so I'd say your last
comment above is probably not true.........
Dave
Ryburn Ross
> George, how many mice and other animals are sacrificed
> every year in high-school biolabs for no more scientific
> "excuse" than this? Replicating the work of others who
> have gone before _is_ one way in which science continually
> checks itself, it's what students do to _learn_ science.
> It's why you can buy dead animals of all kinds, most of
> them far more cuddly and worthy than any mouse, in bio-
> supply catalogs in any high school, killed for you and
> preserved for your "scientific" education. Do you expect
> every dead cat to make some new contribution to science
> in this manner?
>
> Politics is one thing, but this is utter nonsense. Mice
> are vermin. Nothing more, nothing less. If their sac-
> rifice can be made to serve some education purpose - even
> a primarily-for-entertainment-type education purpose -
> then I say, have at it. I've had too many of the damn
> things chewing wires and leaving turds all over the house
> to have much sympathy for them.
>
> The mouse ban is PR. Period. Leave it at that and don't
> try to justify it further.
>
Who's to say its a good idea to have dissection in high schools. I'm a
high school student, have done many dissections, and have gained little,
if any, from these experiments. I would say that a gory computer program
could easily take the place of these labs, and would not require half
the money or death. Why kill living creatures for no reason. Perhaps you
can't have sympathy for mice, but that is no reason to desire their
deaths. After all, like us, they are simply trying to eek out a life in
a world that continuously tries to trample and exterminate them. Its
funny, I suppose, that we can all say mice are simply vermin, no more,
no less, yet if we found any form of life half as complex as a mouse on
another planet, we would call it a miracle, and herald it as the
discovery of a millenium. Every life has worth, plant, animal, or human,
and there is no reason to cut up creatures as you said so fluently, to
simply verify a proven fact.
Sorry for my tree-huggin' message, but I just can't see justifying the
destruction of life as "an entertainment-type experience." What next,
running around shooting deer in the shins just to watch them run around
bloody, in pain, because someone finds it a fun learning experience,
justifying it as some kind of "learning the behavior of a deer in pain"
experiment.
--
Ryburn Ross
"For neither do men live nor die in vain."
-H.G. Wells- War of the Worlds
http://www.jps.net/ross2
Joel C Simon
Hilty Information Systems <blan...@nospam.ever.net> wrote in message
news:38866fc7...@news.apk.net...
.....I had a "sub-genius psychic talk [tm]" with the grasshopper as
> others were busy prepping the motor...
>
> "Do you want to go, and possibly die?", I asked...
yer gittin' real scary, pard.
Joel C Simon
bob fortune <b...@fortunepaint.com> wrote in message
news:3885E168...@fortunepaint.com...
> Why use pigeons when humans are that much more effective?
>
> Cases in point:
> Baka
> Kamikaze
> Fukuryuu frogmen
Well, that worked for a while. But the Japanese ran out of soldiers/fliers
willing to be suicide bombs before they ran out of Americans to aim them at.
They'd have been better off with pigeons. There's lots of them, they can
already fly, and they're a lot less cute than mice.
On the other hand, they almost never crap in my kitchen.
Joel
Dale Greene
The creatures we call mice are not quite as they appear.They are merely
the protrusion into our dimension of vastly hyperintelligent
pandimensional beings. The whole business with the cheese and the
squeaking is just a front.How better to disguise their real natures, and
how better to guide your thinking. Suddenly running down a maze the
wrong way,eating the wrong bit of cheese, unexpectedly dropping dead of
myxomatosis. You see, Earthmen, they really are clever hyperintelligent
pandimensional beings.
THE HITCHHIKER"S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY
--
Dale Greene - President
Southern Pennsylvania Area Association of Rocketry Section 503
http://www.cyberia.com/pages/feveryear/spaar/index.htm
"willing to make mistakes if someone else is willing to learn from them"
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Torey Kortz
Viralex wrote:
>
>
> >Hey, wake up ! Look around you !
> It's part of the natural order for human to destroy the nature around him...<
There's nothing natural about how humans wreck everything around them. I come
from Maine, and I've seen clearcut loggers and real estate developers destroy
and destroy until I want to puke. Rocketeers are an exceptional group; do we
need to jump on the destruction bandwagon too!? Not on my time.
> >Why would a grasshopper' life have less value than a mouse' live?<
That's not my point. They cannot think and therefore feel fear.
Keep 'em flying, -Dave Stout-
Torey Kortz
Steve Decker wrote:
>
> Pardon me ?!?
>
> People aren't part of the natural order ???
>
> Speak for yourself, bud
>
> Okay, Steve- I'll explain myself. We are not part of the natural order
> because we place ourselves outside it. We live in heated (and cooled) homes.
> We build everything we need. By our technology and superior intellect, we can
> enforce our will over every living thing in the world. If we die, the world
> will begin to recover.
I work in a machine shop, and I can't recall ever seeing a bear step up and run
the lathe.
Keep 'em flying, -Dave-
>
> Steve Decker
> square-jawed chief engineer of the patternmaking division
>
> * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
> The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Robert Huggins
a threat to the hobby in my earlier post! I think Stine mentioned in his
Handbook that actual lawsuits had been filed by the ASPCA to shut down model
rocketry in parks, towns, maybe even entire cities after someone talked to a
newsie about a mouse launch and it was covered in the local press.
Given how inconsequential a 'biological' launch is compared to the ability
to continuing launching at all, I'll opt out of live payloads...
Rob
--
You'll have to remove the nonsense from
my email address to use it...
****************
"PeteAlway" <pete...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000119100646...@ng-fe1.aol.com...
> Real simple.
>
> There are less and less places to fly rockets...
<snip>
> To the extent that model rocketry is percieved as basement bombing and
animal
> torture for kicks, those state exemptions in the fireworks laws and those
> permissions to use parks and open spaces will dry up.
<snip>
Torey Kortz
Bruce124 wrote:
> >You are all a bunch of fucking lying pervert loosers. There is no such thing as
> rockets, stages, payloads, cones, M5's, shoots or anything else. If these
> imaginary things you speak of are the only things you get
> off, you all need to really get a life.<
You, of course, have nothing better to do than listen in on the conversations of "a
bunch of fucking lying pervert 'loosers.'" Where does that place YOU in the peck
order? At least we don't waste time observing those we hold in contempt. BTW, Mr.
Sociology Professor, "looser" means "more loose", LOSER is the word you were
attempting to use. You, of all people, should know this. If brain power were
relative to strength, a bohunk like you couldn't think your way out of a wet paper
bag.
> > Do the rest of us very normal humans a big favor.<
"US very normal humans"?? You flatter yourself. Good for a chuckle, though.
Now how about crawling back under your rock. Maybe you can pick on the
invertebrates there, more like your level of opponent.
Have a nice day! -Dave Stout-
>
>
>
>
Torey Kortz
-Dave-
Group 747 wrote:
> Torey Kortz wrote:
> >
> > Why not? Because they're just poor, dumb little creatures. It's certain to
> > scare the hell out of them, and that alone can harm them.
>
> > Besides, there are plenty of lower life forms suitable for launch. No one is
> > going to be too upset if a grasshopper or a centipede buys it in a crash.
>
> Uh oh, here we go. I think this is where the troll was intended to go.
> Can it be stopped? Or are we in for a millemium long discussion of
> animal rights, cat flights, dog fights, grisley sights and ant
> astronauts in mighty mights.
>
> Steve Bloom
Jerry L. Golden
Wrote:
>Why not? Because they're just poor, dumb little creatures. It's certain to
>scare the hell out of them, and that alone can harm them.
They may suffer long lasting psychological trauma ! Moody,
depressed, apathy towards cheese, reduced desire to breed.
>I won't even get into the harm that G forces can cause them.
I kinda wish you would have given it a shot thou...
> And what about the possibility of a malfunction?
Like a CATO ? well, if you can still use the payload section I suppose
a bottle brush would be helpful.
> Impact at terminal velocity can't be a pleasant death.
Impacting at 200-300 FPS I'm sure it wouldn't have time to dwell on it
much. Any idea on how fast impulses travel through the nerves ? If you
started out with the tip of it's tail and worked it into mush at 200
FPS towards its head, what would happen first, perception of pain or
destruction of its brain ? THERE'S a science project for ya.
> About your lost mouse on the 3-stager, dying in a capsule stuckup a tree
>must have been pretty grim. I wonder if dehydration or starvation did him in?
And the guilt gets thicker & heavier...
( I hope you wake up at night in tears. I hope you go to HELL. I
hope you're so overwhelmed by remorse that you start a movement to ban
mouse traps. I hope you get forced into sensitivity classes.)
>So, why not launch mice? Because it's mean, we're supposed to be decent people,
>and WE KNOW BETTER. The snake you mention may give the mice an unpleasant
>death, but he is part of the natural order. We aren't!
>
And just how is a store-bought mouse or a captivity hatched & raised
snake part of the "natural order" ? And when the heck did humans start
being manufactured in a lab ? How much is really "natural" nowadays
anyway - even in the middle of the woods ? Or is it that the point is
really just "anti-human is good" / "humankind is bad for earth" ?
Personally, I have a rather large monitor lizard. I also raise rats.
I also accept spare kittens from people. So an interesting question
might be : where is the dividing line between "cute" and "livestock" ?
None of it is "natural order" so is it cruel ?
>Besides, there are plenty of lower life forms suitable for launch. No one is
>going to be too upset if a grasshopper or a centipede buys it in a crash.
>
And YOU, of course, determine what the higher & lower life forms are ?
Based on what - how big & round it's eyes are ? What happens if I'm a
Hindu and can't walk on ants ? Or what happens if I'm a farmer and
consider mice to be on the same level as flies ? You decide for me ?
Before you get too excited : I've never launched a live animal.
Quite simply because there is nothing for me to learn from it - I do
not have the medical knowledge to know just what a flight did to a
rodent, other than still alive or been killed of course. Any flight
conditions could be duplicated in a much more controlled situation on
the ground - IF I was so inclined.
In any case ; the original troll, and some of the responses seem to
want to interject the animal rights issue into RMR. But I'm done, I've
said my piece, I say no more on the topic in this NG.
JLG
Torey Kortz
No, I never claimed we're great for the environment, and I'm sure the tree huggers
would be right on our case.... IF we represented any threat. I'll bet all the AP
and BP motors ever used by us could never approach the level of crap dumped in a
river by an "I-don't-care-and-you-can't-make-me!" paper company in ONE DAY.
Keep 'em flying, -Dave Stout-
Beanboy wrote:
> > There's nothing natural about how humans wreck everything around them. I come
> > from Maine, and I've seen clearcut loggers and real estate developers destroy
> > and destroy until I want to puke. Rocketeers are an exceptional group; do we
> > need to jump on the destruction bandwagon too!? Not on my time.
>
Torey Kortz
I'll address some of your nasty post before I quit this G-D- thread.
>
> >Why not? Because they're just poor, dumb little creatures. It's certain to
> >scare the hell out of them, and that alone can harm them.
>
> > They may suffer long lasting psychological trauma ! Moody,
> depressed, apathy towards cheese, reduced desire to breed.< The mice, or you??
>
>
> > And what about the possibility of a malfunction?
>
> >Like a CATO ? well, if you can still use the payload section I suppose
> a bottle brush would be helpful.<Then you can force it into your ear in a fruitless
> try at discovering some gray matter.
>
>
> >And the guilt gets thicker & heavier...
> ( I hope you wake up at night in tears. I hope you go to HELL. I
> hope you're so overwhelmed by remorse that you start a movement to ban
> mouse traps. I hope you get forced into sensitivity classes.)< Well, I wish the
> very best for you, too, friend. I hope the Viagra works for you because your weak
> attempts to build yourself up at my expense aren't making a you look like a man!
>
> >So, why not launch mice? Because it's mean, we're supposed to be decent people,
> >and WE KNOW BETTER. The snake you mention may give the mice an unpleasant
> >death, but he is part of the natural order. We aren't!
> >
>
> > "anti-human is good" / "humankind is bad for earth" ?<Yeah, we are. Open your
> eyes. Grow up. Mice and snakes don't make nukes, fish out all the cod, or dump
> dioxins in secret landfills. The tree huggers don't begin to describe how
> destructive people can really be! And no, anti-human isn't good. Remember the
> Holocaust??
>
>
> >Besides, there are plenty of lower life forms suitable for launch. No one is
> >going to be too upset if a grasshopper or a centipede buys it in a crash.
> >
> >And YOU, of course, determine what the higher & lower life forms are ?
> Based on what - how big & round it's eyes are ?<How about intelligence?
> > Before you get too excited : I've never launched a live animal.
> Quite simply because there is nothing for me to learn from it - I do
> not have the medical knowledge to know just what a flight did to a
> rodent, other than still alive or been killed of course. Any flight
> conditions could be duplicated in a much more controlled situation on
> the ground - IF I was so inclined.<"Get too excited", you pompous hypocrite? You
> do admirably in the sarcasm field, but for the ability to elicit any emotional
> response, you are sorely lacking.
> > But I'm done, I've
> said my piece, I say no more on the topic in this NG.< Then why did you post
> QUESTIONS, or was that merely rhetoric for your charming little tirade? Nothing
> like a little public self-contradiction, eh?
Have a nice day, -Dave Stout-
>
> JLG
nos...@here.net
<nobody...@technologist.com> wrote:
>Quoted from the NAR Model Rocketry Safety Code:
>
> 6.Payloads. My model rocket will never carry live animals
>
> (except insects)
>
> or a payload that is intended to be flammable, explosive,
> or harmful.
>Oh, and "harmful" to whom? Or possibly to what?
For one thing, they don't want you to send a bomb in a rocket and
shoot it at a building. THAT is "harmful".
CP
Hilty Information Systems
>In article <862057$8hd$1...@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net>, <emor...@mindspring.com> writes:
>> Ok ok, I admit it.... as a Lad, I used to, an quite a regular basis
>> lauch white mice into high orbit. (ok....1500 feet)
Holeee Fraholeee...
RMR never ceases to amaze me...
'Kay, now my personal confession...
One day, during a typical MTMA launch, I stood back and watched our
esteemed Mr. Recktenwald *allow*... can you believe that?.. _ALLOW_
his children to load a grasshopper into an Estes X-Ray...
I thought, "Well, in the name of science"...
Anyway, I had a "sub-genius psychic talk [tm]" with the grasshopper as
others were busy prepping the motor...
"Do you want to go, and possibly die?", I asked...
The grasshopper responded (his name was Floyd, BTW) "Absolutely! I
know of a better place where it is told of nothing but fresh lettuce
leaves, washed in cold water, and displayed on ice cubes"... "I'm
ready for my destiny" he answered...
Floyd was loaded into the X-Ray's payload section...
Countdown was issued, and the massive B6-4 blazed to life...
Me? I was _terrified_ during the entire ordeal! My tinfoil hat was
picking up nothing but Floyd's terrified/elated messages..
"OH YES!! YESSSS!!" he was screaming in his "grasshopper" voice which
sounded a lot like Betty Boop's...
X-Ray reached apogee, and the 'chute deployed...
Floyd gently floated back to the ground...
After Mr. Straka's, and my kids recovered the craft, I talked with
Floyd again...
He said...
"My Gosh!", as he limped from the payload bay... "That was TOTALLY
K-RAD KEWL!"... "It's too bad, that due to the NAR saftey code, that
upper level animals/vertibrates can't appreciate this ride!"... "Gimme
a piece of grass"...
<vbg>
Gentlemen! AN INSECT IS A VERTIBRATE... sorta... IT JUST HAS IT'S
SKELETON ON THE OUTSIDE!!
And YES THIS REALLY DID HAPPEN...
Tod "hmmm... where'd my meds go" Hilty
Tod A. Hilty NAR #72099
Member MTMA
Hilty Information Systems
"I'm going to put the wheels of the bus back on... just in case"
- BlankReg, Max Headroom: 20 Minutes Into the Future
"I speak for myself _and_ my corporation! Deal with it!"
- blankreg
- remove nospam.ever, and replace with apk for reply
DonReally
>muscles to pull their legs inward. The outward (stretching) action is
>accomplished by blood pressure - their legs just inflate like party blowers.
>So when a spider dies, there is no blood pressure to straighten a leg when
>it suffers any twitch/spasm during the death throws. As a result, a dead
>spider will have all 8 legs pulled in
I knew if I read 75 or so posts in this thread I would learn something! No,
really, I never knew why they curl their legs up like that. I didn't even know
that I was missing that info so now I've learned two things. Sometimes it's
not the rocket science that helps you, it's the side issues that teach you.
Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge. :-)
DRJ
Dave/Kristin Hall
: > They may suffer long lasting psychological trauma ! Moody,
: > depressed, apathy towards cheese, reduced desire to breed.
: Placed the second mouse in the cage with the first one to let the new
: mousetranaut get to know the old mousetranaut. A short time later I had
: a cage full of budding Junior mousetranauts -- so I'd say your last
: comment above is probably not true.........
You fool! Those weren't junior mousetranauts - they were the pod people
who impregnated your mice while they were in hypersleep!
--
David Hall
Propulsion Geek At Large
Joel C Simon
Bob Kaplow <kapl...@eisner.decus.org> wrote in message
news:2000Jan19.132005.1@eisner...
> I guess you'll have to try the IAR or the SIAR or the NRA next...
I think the NRA says you're not supposed to launch mice with rifles.....
Or they would, if you asked them to.
Joel
Michael Akers
> Hey, Mike:
>
> I think you are at the wrong discussion group; the Maladjusted Losers
discussion
> group must be sorely missing your input right now.
>
Actually, they kicked me out for being too bloodthirsty. ~[8]{E}
> Got yourself a pretty serious "hunter, killer" superiority complex don't
you?
Interesting term. And, just how, may I ask, did you come to this conclusion?
> Who do you think you are; going off on me because I mention my opinion
about
> the morality of torture?
What opinion about the morality of tourture? At no time did you make an
opinion on tourture or the morality of torture. I made the responce that I
made because of your opinion of where humans are in the natural order of
things. And I reiterate, Humans are on the pinnacle of the natural order of
things as far as THIS planet goes. (in deference to an email from Woody, I
have changed "Man is" to "Humans are")
> I was civil in my response to the original post. And
> its author did elicit our opinions.
>
Civil? (:P) Just as civil as mine was. Maybe a little less.
> I think we don't have the right to torture anything BECAUSE we are at the
top of
> the evolutionary heap.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are very, very wrong. Humans are very
vicious creatures, we *choose* not to torture because we believe the
practice is uncivilized. But then again it is plainly obvious that you never
took Psychiatry 101 and 102. Nor, apparently have you ever observed young
children interact with the world around them when they think that no adults
are watching.
> If you've got to kill mice, use a trap. SNAP, done. Why
> do you get off on suffering? Is your next trick going to be pulling the
wings
> off flies? Instead, why don't you pull the fins off a Mosquito? Just be
sure
> you're alone when you launch it. Come to think of it, someone of your
social
> skills is probably alone all the time anyway.
>
I've seen a lot of mice caught in those traps still alive, and squealing
their little hearts out because of the pain, before they ultimately die. If
I have a mouse or rat problem, I borrow my brothers cat Toby. I do not use
traps or poison on mice and rats, as other creatures can, and often do, get
caught or are poisoned buy them.
As for my social skills, I own my own business, I interact with scores of
people on any given week, been all over the world, although I only speak
English, I do read Spanish, French, German, Japanese, and Chinese. I have
two daughters, Kathy who is taking a major in Marine Biology, and Pamela who
has yet to figure out what she wants to do, but thinks her Dad's business is
way cool. So I do not know about your social skills, but mine are just fine
thank you.
>
> > >Umm.... Dave or Torey or whatever your name is, JUST WHAT PLANET WERE
YOU
> > BORN ON? Man is on the pinnacle of the natural order of things as far as
> > THIS planet goes.<
> >
> > FWIW, I'm Dave. Torey's the computer whiz and it's her account. If you
had
> > any clue about how people write to news groups, you'd know who's who
from the
> > fact that I placed my name at the bottom. So simple, a child can figure
it
> > out!
Oh! This is way too tempting to pass up!
Dave, old boy. You really do not know with whom you are dealing with, and
that is a fact. Let's just say that if you dig deep enough, you will find my
name on various documents related to the creation and establishment of HTTP,
NNTP, and IRC.
The use of someone elses user ID is frowned upon, regardless of the fact
that you sign your name at the bottom of each post.
> >
> > >No one that I know would get to upset if a mouse gets killed for any
reason.
> > Mice rate right up there with the rat and cockroach for the top pest of
> > mankind. We will never, ever be able to kill them all!<
>
> Well, I hope you had fun blowing up at me. If you flame me again,
especially
> since I've done NOTHING WRONG, I won't hesitate to make you look like the
fool
> you are. Hope to see you in the Darwin Awards, -Dave Stout-
Well for one thing I did not "blow up" at you. I did react strongly to a
*public* post by you. Because of an email sent to me by a friend of yours I
was going to appologise to you for maybe comming on a little to strong. But
in reading the other responces that you have made to this group on this
subject, and with the pure venom and anger that you have portrayed in your
posts, I do not think that I owe you anything, least of all an appology.
And since you have not even bothered to read my original post on this
subject, I hereby wash my hands of you.
--
Michael Akers
M. Akers Enterprises
-----
"Meddle not in the affairs of Wizards, mortal ...
For thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup"
P.S. Be very carefull of who you wish death to....
Viralex
Torey Kortz <To...@mediaone.net> wrote
> > Viralex wrote:
> > >Why would a grasshopper' life have less value than a mouse' live?<
>
> That's not my point. They cannot think and therefore feel fear.
>
How do you know they can't think?
If the grasshopper sees a bird, he'll feel fear.
Maybe that, when you put it in the rocket's payload bay, he will not feel
the danger...
But the mouse won't feel the danger too.
Until take off... Then either the grasshopper or the mouse will really feel
it...
Viralex
Michael Akers
Science courses in high school are designed to expose the student to
scientific theory and methodology. In biology class, having a student
dissect a worm, frog, or mouse, the instructor gains insight into whether or
not the student is interested in science in general, biology in specific,
and depending upon how a student performs class activities and lab
activities, how that student will do latter on in life. Your idea of using a
*virtual* lab animal on a computer, and performing dissection upon the
*computer construct* has been tried. It was an absolute failure. Why?
Because when the student who had successfully dissected a *computerized
frog* tried to do the same thing with a real frog, the student could not
correctly identify the various organs, musculature, nerves, etc. But a
different student who had successfully dissected a real frog, when
introduced to the *virtual* frog, successfully identified all aspects of the
frog. Computers are wonderful tools, but they do have their limitations. To
give another analogy, say you were really good at flying virtual aircraft.
Able to take off, fly around, and land with no mistakes. Also say that you
really excelled at flying virtual 747's. Now they take you and put you in a
747 flight simulator. And you do outstanding at that. And finally they put
you in a real 747. What do you think happens? You end up crashing the
aircraft because *nothing* has ever prepared you for the real life
experience of being in control of that aircraft. Would you trust a person
with your life, if the only operation that they had ever made was on a
virtual person?
One of the objects of biology class is to teach you about death, and about
life. Medical technology of today is built upon the dead carcasses of once
living animals and people. And the medical technology of the last 40 or so
years is directly related to the space industry. Mice, rats, cats, dogs, and
monkeys were launched in an effort to refine medical monitoring of the final
goal, humans. They were also launched in order to verify operation and
reliability of the environments that humans would be using.
Now to the topic of launching a mouse. Contrary to what some of the people
here have been posting, the goal of launching a mouse is the successful
recovery of the mouse, alive and unhurt. Granted a lot of the people here
have absolutely no idea of how to prepare the mouse for the ordeal it will
be undertaking, nor do they have any idea as to the real requirements of a
compatible habitat for the mouse to occupy during launch. The reason? They
have no experience in life sciences. And as high schoolers they really did
not like biology class, where they were being taught the fundamentals of
life. (have I got your attention yet?) Every thing you do and experience in
school *is* necessary for preparing you for life outside of school. Icky
science classes, et. all. (:P) Life sciences ties into virtually everything
you do, see, touch, and feel. To be really successful in rocketry, you must
have a background in Life Sciences, Human Engineering, General Science,
Mechanics, and probably Electronics too (most likely in fact). Also you will
need Behavioral Sciences too.
Now back to the mouse.
First off you will need to get the mousses absolute trust. It must feel
completely non threatened in your presence.
Next you will have to teach it to respond to certain stimuli. Blinking
lights, etc., for feeding it's self, getting water, exiting the habitat, and
so forth.
The mouse must be completely familiar with the habitat environment into
which it will be placed for launching. By making it part of it's normal
habitat space, the mouse will quickly become accustomed to it's presence.
The habitat must be designed to sustain the mousses life. Food, water, air,
etc.
The habitat must be able to monitor the mousses vitals continuously. Heart
rate, breathing, temperature, odorous, etc.
The use of color video camera, and a microbolometer camera (8-11 uum).
And lots of other things that need to be addressed. (:P)
So as you see, a lot of things that you did not know about is tied directly
to biology class. You may not like the lessons that you will learn. But you
definitely should have at least a nodding acquaintance with biology if you
are to survive in this world.
Ryburn Ross <ro...@jps.net> wrote in message news:3886A2...@jps.net...
> Who's to say its a good idea to have dissection in high schools. I'm a
> high school student, have done many dissections, and have gained little,
> if any, from these experiments. I would say that a gory computer program
> could easily take the place of these labs, and would not require half
> the money or death. Why kill living creatures for no reason. Perhaps you
> can't have sympathy for mice, but that is no reason to desire their
> deaths. After all, like us, they are simply trying to eek out a life in
> a world that continuously tries to trample and exterminate them. Its
> funny, I suppose, that we can all say mice are simply vermin, no more,
> no less, yet if we found any form of life half as complex as a mouse on
> another planet, we would call it a miracle, and herald it as the
> discovery of a millenium. Every life has worth, plant, animal, or human,
> and there is no reason to cut up creatures as you said so fluently, to
> simply verify a proven fact.
Unless the "proven fact" comes under suspition as being self serving as with
a lot of "facts" that were handed down from the past. Thus prompting
revisiting various facts and proving them all over again, using new tools
that were not available then, as well as better methodologies.
>
> Sorry for my tree-huggin' message, but I just can't see justifying the
> destruction of life as "an entertainment-type experience." What next,
> running around shooting deer in the shins just to watch them run around
> bloody, in pain, because someone finds it a fun learning experience,
> justifying it as some kind of "learning the behavior of a deer in pain"
> experiment.
>
Hunters are taught that if you are going to kill an animal, do it quickly
and cleanly. If you wound and animal, you do not come back until you find it
and put it down. BTW, just so you know, any one caught doing what you
described to a deer, faces severe penalties and jail time, if caught. Mice,
outside of their normal habitat, are vermin. In their normal habitat, the
prey on, and provide a control for, small insects. Animals higher on the
food chain than they are, prey on them, and in turn keep their population in
check. But with mice in an environment that is controlled by humans, there
are no controls on the mousses population, as the higher predators generally
keep away from these places. Thus it is up to humans to provide the control
required to keep the population of mice down. Also, mice and rats are a
common vector for disease and plauge. It is a hard truth, but it is one that
has been proven time, and time, again.
Lewis Garrow
teenaged boys, hopped up on hormones, get to taunt girls with 'innards'?
come on, don't you know what fun is?
tell me now, when that mouse poops in your food...don't you just want to
..er..launch..them?
Ryburn Ross wrote:
>
>
> Who's to say its a good idea to have dissection in high schools. I'm a
> high school student, have done many dissections, and have gained little,
> if any, from these experiments. I would say that a gory computer program
> could easily take the place of these labs, and would not require half
> the money or death. Why kill living creatures for no reason. Perhaps you
> can't have sympathy for mice, but that is no reason to desire their
> deaths. After all, like us, they are simply trying to eek out a life in
> a world that continuously tries to trample and exterminate them. Its
> funny, I suppose, that we can all say mice are simply vermin, no more,
> no less, yet if we found any form of life half as complex as a mouse on
> another planet, we would call it a miracle, and herald it as the
> discovery of a millenium. Every life has worth, plant, animal, or human,
> and there is no reason to cut up creatures as you said so fluently, to
> simply verify a proven fact.
>
> Sorry for my tree-huggin' message, but I just can't see justifying the
> destruction of life as "an entertainment-type experience." What next,
> running around shooting deer in the shins just to watch them run around
> bloody, in pain, because someone finds it a fun learning experience,
> justifying it as some kind of "learning the behavior of a deer in pain"
> experiment.
>
Lewis Garrow
Boids, doity, filthy, disgusting, boids!
Lewis Garrow
Andy Eng wrote:
> As some of you may know, we down here off the Gulf of Mexico have
> these cock roaches that's about the size of mice. There's quite an
> industry out there to exterminate these things. If you accidently
> step on one after a couple of brews with the buddies, chances are
> you'll pull a groin muscle as the guts are real slippery so that its
> like slipping on ice. I'll admit to baiting them out in the yard
> with a bananna peel and using them for air pistol target practice.
>
> Back to rocketry - I would detest having to catch a corp of these
> pests but would feel good seeing them get launched in a fleet of BT-50
> F101T powered ship.
>
> There...
>
> I've finally posted to a goofy thread having resisted such all winter.
>
> Andy (waiting for spring fever season) Eng
Vince
> How do you know they can't think?
> If the grasshopper sees a bird, he'll feel fear.
Explain to my, why you believe that grasshoppers can feel fear.
Do viruses get a sense of accomplishment, after they've invaded
a cell and commandeered it to reproduce?
Do amoebae FEEL hunger? And then remorse, after eating another
living creature? Or are they simply biological organisms responding
to a genetic program which dictates that they consume food for energy,
then reproduce.
Do lobsters love?
Do lemmings lament?
Do starlings sympathize?
Do insects inquire?
Do fish philosophize?
Do cats contemplate?