Duco Cement?
Matt Tuley
myself quite a bit. (Made the "mistake" of doing some rocket demos for
my classes and got myself hooked.) This newsgroup and the info I've
gleaned from it have been most helpful! I imagine I most closely fit the
characteristics of a BAR, but, for whatever reasons, I never had the
initial experience as a youth. I've got a lot of catching up to do!
While at the hardware store today I saw hanging on a rack packages of
Duco Cement. According to the package, it's "the most popular
multi-purpose household glue" and is "great on...plastic...wood..." and
other stuff I don't build model rockets with. I've never heard of it.
Anybody here have any experience using this in rocket building? If no
one has, I might try it on the next Alpha I build and post a report.
Thanks!
Matt Tuley
[NAR number here when it arrives in the mail]
James Wentworth
said that Duco cement and other model airplane-type cements (Pactra C-77,
Ambroid, Testors Formula B cement for wood models, etc.) is quite
satisfactory for building model rockets, particularly for paper/paper,
paper/wood, and wood/wood joints. When gluing balsa fins onto kraft
paper body tubes, sanding the shiny glassine coating off will allow the
glue to soak into the paper. The use of double-glue joints will also
produce much stronger glue joints.
Jason
--
James J. Wentworth
d005...@dc.seflin.org
Fred Shecter
glue warnings. (It's not a good idea to use flammable glue or cement in
a Model Rocket)
http://home.earthlink.net/~mebowitz/#Safety
-Fred Shecter NAR 20117
Bob Kaplow
> While at the hardware store today I saw hanging on a rack packages of
> Duco Cement. According to the package, it's "the most popular
> multi-purpose household glue" and is "great on...plastic...wood..." and
> other stuff I don't build model rockets with. I've never heard of it.
> Anybody here have any experience using this in rocket building? If no
> one has, I might try it on the next Alpha I build and post a report.
It's been around for years, and I've used it for a while. It's very similar
to Amberoid. It's great for competition BGs, because if you want to remove
it, you can just brush on some dope/epoxy/laquer thiner and soften the bond
to remove the part. Unlike white/yellow glues, it does contain solvents, so
it can attack some plastics.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Ctrl-Alt-Del"
Kaplow Klips: http://members.aol.com/myhprcato/KaplowKlips.html
NIRA: http://www.nira.chicago.il.us
Matt Tuley
Alpha and see how I like it.
Matt Tuley
NAR # pending...
James Wentworth
: VERY BAD FOR ROCKETS!!!! Visit our club website/safety advisory for
: glue warnings. (It's not a good idea to use flammable glue or cement in
: a Model Rocket)
: http://home.earthlink.net/~mebowitz/#Safety
Fred, I think you're failing to make the distinction between "wet" or
un-cured cement and its "dry" or cured state. The Testors cement for
plastic models that we use to glue bases onto plastic nose cones and for
other applications (gluing in the Black Brant II's plastic boat-tail,
etc.) is highly flammable straight out of the tube. Once the solvent has
evaporated, however, the dried glue is no more flammable than the plastic
parts it is used on.
Duco cement and the other "model airplane"-type cements (Ambroid, Pactra
C-77, Testors cement for wood models, etc.) are also very flammable
before they dry, but they cease to be as flammable after their solvents
evaporate. Stine recommended all of these cements for model rocket
construction in the earlier years of the hobby. I think the main reason
that PVA white glues and aliphatic resin glues have become the most
commonly-used glues is that they are non-toxic and emit no fumes, which
makes them saf(er) for children to use. When an informed and mature
adult is building a model rocket kit, there is no reason why s/he
shouldn't use the other cements if s/he desires to do so.
Bob Kaplow
> Fred Shecter (fred.e....@boeing.com) wrote:
> : VERY BAD FOR ROCKETS!!!! Visit our club website/safety advisory for
> : glue warnings. (It's not a good idea to use flammable glue or cement in
> : a Model Rocket)
>
> : http://home.earthlink.net/~mebowitz/#Safety
>
> C-77, Testors cement for wood models, etc.) are also very flammable
> before they dry, but they cease to be as flammable after their solvents
> evaporate. Stine recommended all of these cements for model rocket
Duco, Amberiod, et al are still flammable after they dry. So is paper. And
IMHO they are perfectly suited for rocket construction as long as they are
not exposed to the flame.
Fred Shecter
c=various glues and cements. I personally love Ambroid for assembling
boost gliders (the glider, NOT the rocket or pod).
The average beginner really should follow the manufacturers
reccommendations for glues when assembling their model rocket kit.
Period.
To fail to follow the instructions will void the warrenty and absolve
the manufacturer of some or all liability for an accident.
I've inspected thousands of rockets, and the biggest nightmares are
those wizards etc. assembled by cub scouts with "cement". The fins and
launch lugs can fall/pop off. How about those Mean Machines? Assemble
that engine mount with DUCO? Or Testors rocket cement (wood cement)?
Roman Candle, anyone?
No thanks. I'll stick to my advice for beginners. Experienced people
all have varying preferences and degrees of success.
I hope you'll agree with some of what I've said. 8-)
-Fred Shecter NAR 20117
Vamidpowr
While all my rocket construction is done with a combination of Weldbond (a
concentrated white glue) and CA, I occasionally use tiny, carefully applied
droplets of DUCO to the outside of the model to simulate rivets. The point of
a round toothpick is a good applicator.
Chuck Barndt
The Launch Pad
http://www.the-launch-pad.com
James Wentworth
: The average beginner really should follow the manufacturers
: reccommendations for glues when assembling their model rocket kit.
: Period.
: To fail to follow the instructions will void the warrenty and absolve
: the manufacturer of some or all liability for an accident.
With all due respect, I could not disagree more. I can give you a
current example from my own experience. A local teacher wants to use an
Estes Black Brant II for a demonstration launch, and I am providing her
with "after market" components to improve the model. Because of the
relatively small field size, I'm providing her with an 18 mm motor
adapter mount and a 12" parachute. The elastic shock cord will be
replaced with a 36" length of stout kevlar cord. All of these changes
"disobey" the kit instructions, but they will result in a superior model
that will be less prone to becoming lost or damaged. I always make
improvements like these to my models, and I also fly non-Estes motors in
them (even Aerotech motors, if the model in question can take the stress).
: I've inspected thousands of rockets, and the biggest nightmares are
: those wizards etc. assembled by cub scouts with "cement". The fins and
: launch lugs can fall/pop off. How about those Mean Machines? Assemble
: that engine mount with DUCO? Or Testors rocket cement (wood cement)?
: Roman Candle, anyone?
: No thanks. I'll stick to my advice for beginners. Experienced people
: all have varying preferences and degrees of success.
I've seen successful Jet-X and Dynajet (pulsejet) model airplanes that were
assembled with Duco and the other cements. They work fine for rockets as
well.
Bill Westfield
reccommendations for glues when assembling their model rocket kit.
Does that include the "all CA" advice Aerotech provides for building their
"large model rockets"? Sheesh, no fillits, even.
BillW
--
(remove spam food from return address)
Kevin Drayson
Bill Westfield wrote in message <54hfy6l...@flipper.cisco.com>...
Actually, Aerotech's advice seems to work just fine. Remember what they
point out in their instructions- the CA is mainly there to hold the parts
together, but doesn't take the majority of the stress loads- all the
interlocking parts do. Also, with their pre-formed fins, they've built in a
fillet- that flare at the root of the fins serves two purposes- it reduces
drag, and provides a larger surface to bond to the body tube. From what I've
seen, Aerotech's kits are plenty sturdy when assembled per instructions.
Using epoxies, etc. will only increase weight.
I'd better qualify that... I've never seen an Aerotech kit (or any other for
that matter) fly on anything bigger than a G. Considering my previous
experience with average CA- based cements (Krazy glue, for example), I'm
still a bit dubious about this method being suitable for HPR flights. I
realize that Krazy Glue and its clones aren't in the same league, strength-
wise as the industrial- strength stuff, so maybe stuff like ZAP is fine?
YMMV!
Kevin Drayson
kdra...@nbnet.nb.nospam.ca
http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/kdrayson
James Wentworth
: The average beginner really should follow the manufacturers
: reccommendations for glues when assembling their model rocket kit.
: Does that include the "all CA" advice Aerotech provides for building their
: "large model rockets"? Sheesh, no fillits, even.
My point exactly! The manufacturer is not always right, although we
should not cynically assume that the manufacturer is always wrong. For
example, my Nova Hobbies ASP kit was originally designed to use black
powder 13 mm motors, and I specified PVA white glue or aliphatic resin
yellow carpenter's glue in the instructions. If someone wanted to fly it
with composite 13 mm motors and built the kit using epoxy, they would be
"disobeying" my instructions. Would they be wrong? Of course not!
Fred Shecter
install an engine block that caught fire after ejection. Dry cement.
And I've already written about the other structural problems of this
adhesive. Wood cement is great on wood (glider wings). It sucks on
paper to wood joints that take the loads that a model rocket
experiences. Use yellow wood glue for those joints. It dries fast. It
is non-toxic. It is WAY strong. It does not go "woof" (burn).
-Fred Shecter NAR 20117
James Wentworth wrote:
>
> Fred Shecter (fred.e....@boeing.com) wrote:
> : VERY BAD FOR ROCKETS!!!! Visit our club website/safety advisory for
> : glue warnings. (It's not a good idea to use flammable glue or cement in
> : a Model Rocket)
>
> : http://home.earthlink.net/~mebowitz/#Safety
>
> Fred, I think you're failing to make the distinction between "wet" or
> un-cured cement and its "dry" or cured state. The Testors cement for
> plastic models that we use to glue bases onto plastic nose cones and for
> other applications (gluing in the Black Brant II's plastic boat-tail,
> etc.) is highly flammable straight out of the tube. Once the solvent has
> evaporated, however, the dried glue is no more flammable than the plastic
> parts it is used on.
>
> Duco cement and the other "model airplane"-type cements (Ambroid, Pactra
> C-77, Testors cement for wood models, etc.) are also very flammable
> before they dry, but they cease to be as flammable after their solvents
> evaporate. Stine recommended all of these cements for model rocket
> construction in the earlier years of the hobby. I think the main reason
> that PVA white glues and aliphatic resin glues have become the most
> commonly-used glues is that they are non-toxic and emit no fumes, which
> makes them saf(er) for children to use. When an informed and mature
> adult is building a model rocket kit, there is no reason why s/he
> shouldn't use the other cements if s/he desires to do so.
>
Fred Shecter
I keep trying to say is that for BEGINNERS - those with limited
experience using different glues/cements/adhesives - they should use
exactly what the manufacturer reccommends, not what is laying around in
their garage or "what the guy at the store told them to use" (an
overstocked, slow selling cement or glue that they want to push on
customers).
It's pretty sad to see a scout troop show up to launch with a bunch of
wizards assembled with wood cement and watch the fins snap off and the
engine blocks fail as well as the shock cord mounts.
Then there's the D12 powered - cardboard centering ring BT-50 to BT-60+
models assembled with cement (Duco, Testors...) where the engine mount
Roman Candles out the top at lift-off.
-Fred Shecter NAR 20117
Fred Shecter
sworn it gave you the option of CA or Epoxy. If that's how the
manufacturer designed the kit, that's how they reccommend you assemble
it. I used the epoxy. And Bob is correct about the 5-minute epoxy --
after a few years the lugs began to fall off.
-Fred Shecter NAR 20117
Bill Westfield wrote:
>
> The average beginner really should follow the manufacturers
> reccommendations for glues when assembling their model rocket kit.
>
> Does that include the "all CA" advice Aerotech provides for building their
> "large model rockets"? Sheesh, no fillits, even.
>
Lee R. Reep
> reccommendations for glues when assembling their model rocket kit.
>
>Does that include the "all CA" advice Aerotech provides for building their
>"large model rockets"? Sheesh, no fillits, even.
>
>BillW
>--
>(remove spam food from return address)
I built my Initiator per instructions -- all CA -- about 5-6 years ago. With
maybe 15 flights over the years, it has held up fine.
Given the limitations of using up thru G motors, this seems fine. I wouldn't
use CA only on bigger rockets, using much higher powered motors.
Lee Reep
Henry Oeser
> : the manufacturer of some or all liability for an accident.
Considering the average life time of a rocket, "warranty" is a misnomer.
--
Henry Oeser
NOVAAR#205, MDTRA#68, EVARA#82, NCTRA#40.
NAR#65336, TRA#4782
Fred Shecter
like it's from last thursday. Sorry if this is "old news". Se the
posting that I'm responding to below.)
Again, you are not listening to me. I said "THE AVERAGE BEGINNER". The
example you cite is a teacher who you are personnaly giving guidence
to. When we usr Estes Alphas or Generic E2X kits at a make-it & take-it
or a class program, we use a different shock cord mount (MPC type
because elastic cord does not need to be encapsulated in paper like the
old contest rubber shock cords) and we attach the parachute different
(the Estes method works, but almost always results in uneven shroud line
length - we tie a knot after evening up the shrouds and then tie it to
the eye).
If you give specific guidence to someone to help them build a different
version of a rocket from a commercially available kit, you may indeed
help them to build a superior model! But I am talking about BEGINNER
models - Alphas, E2X, etc., built by BEGINNERS. BEGINNERS who could
benefit from fully reading the instructions. They tell you what
materials to use and how to assemble the model. A BEGINNER does not
have the knowledge of materials and adhesives and stability that you
have. They will hopefully acquire that knowledge over time, but if they
start out under the assumption that they can ignore the instructions and
substitute glues/cements at will, they may set themselves up for
problems. And if they are a teacher, they should be giving their
students the instructions. I've seen hundreds of kids who have gone
through school and scout programs, who were sent home with the rocket
and no instructions on how to fly it or what engines to use!
So to sum it up:
BEGINNERS: Follow instructions. Warn them about KNOWN safety problems
and advise them how to fix them (Estes mini-engine hooks, old MK-109,
old,old BullPup, etc.)
INTERMEDIATE: Tell 'em how to improve/kitbash. Make sure they know
that The manufacturers warranty will probably not cover them if there is
a failure caused by the builders modifications.
ADVANCED: Will probably offer advice more than they need advice.
Again, again, I know you are trying to help, but Yellow wood glue is
much better than cement for attaching wood fins to paper model rocket
tubes, or assembling engine mounts. Cement is GREAT for wood models,
like the Model Airplane examples you cited.
That's all. I grow weary of this thread 8-).
Have a nice day and may your glue (or cement) joint be "strong like ox".
-Fred Shecter NAR 20117
James Wentworth wrote:
>
> Fred Shecter (fred.e....@boeing.com) wrote:
>
> : The average beginner really should follow the manufacturers
> : reccommendations for glues when assembling their model rocket kit.
>
> : Period.
>
> : To fail to follow the instructions will void the warrenty and absolve
> : the manufacturer of some or all liability for an accident.
>
> With all due respect, I could not disagree more. I can give you a
> current example from my own experience. A local teacher wants to use an
> Estes Black Brant II for a demonstration launch, and I am providing her
> with "after market" components to improve the model. Because of the
> relatively small field size, I'm providing her with an 18 mm motor
> adapter mount and a 12" parachute. The elastic shock cord will be
> replaced with a 36" length of stout kevlar cord. All of these changes
> "disobey" the kit instructions, but they will result in a superior model
> that will be less prone to becoming lost or damaged. I always make
> improvements like these to my models, and I also fly non-Estes motors in
> them (even Aerotech motors, if the model in question can take the stress).
>
> : I've inspected thousands of rockets, and the biggest nightmares are
> : those wizards etc. assembled by cub scouts with "cement". The fins and
> : launch lugs can fall/pop off. How about those Mean Machines? Assemble
> : that engine mount with DUCO? Or Testors rocket cement (wood cement)?
> : Roman Candle, anyone?
>
> : No thanks. I'll stick to my advice for beginners. Experienced people
> : all have varying preferences and degrees of success.
>
> I've seen successful Jet-X and Dynajet (pulsejet) model airplanes that were
> assembled with Duco and the other cements. They work fine for rockets as
> well.
>
David Beaver
> The average beginner really should follow the manufacturers
> reccommendations for glues when assembling their model rocket kit.
>
>Does that include the "all CA" advice Aerotech provides for building their
>"large model rockets"? Sheesh, no fillits, even.
Surprisingly enough, this works great. I have a mustang that has flown dozens
of times on engines up to G80; I builkt it according to their instructions and
used nothing but CA. The rocket was very strong (it recently met its demise
coming in ballistically from about 1500 feet; the body tube was totally
accordianed, total loss, but one of the fins stayed on even through being
embedded in turf).
......dave
Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati (Thanks to the Possum Lodge and Red Green)
(anti-spamming in force. remove the obvious to reply)
Jeffrey D. Gortatowsky
not fit completely flush. I have flown it on an F25-6, F62-6, F20-7, and
G35-7. Fins are still there. As long as the chute comes out, it'll be
fine. And believe me, the desert floor is unforgiving of wimpy rockets,
chute or no. 8)
Pay Forward,
Jeff
--
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Email: myrock...@iname.com or: http://members.aol.com/myhprcato
NAR: 70988 Level I Member: ROC and SCRA TRA: 5678 IAR# 43