Model rockets in city parks
bit eimer
model rockets in their city's parks (in OR, I think).
So I got curious and called Phoenix Parks and was told that they are NOT
permitted. This surprised me, as I was told a couple years back by someone
in Phoenix Parks that it was OK.
So I go online and check out the Phoenix City Code. Under the Parks heading
I find no reference whatsoever to model rockets.
Has anyone else run into this - where it appears that the Parks employees
just make up an answer or institute a "rule" with apparently no basis? Any
suggestions what to do to "fix" the problem?
TIA
--
...The Bit Eimer [remove keinewurst and reverse letters in domain to
email me]
"My goal in life is to be the kind of person my cat thinks he is"
--------------------------------------------------------------
Doug Sams
> Has anyone else run into this - where it appears that the Parks employees
> just make up an answer or institute a "rule" with apparently no basis? Any
> suggestions what to do to "fix" the problem?
Bit,
My first instinct, and I think it's part of Bunny's standard answer, is
to ask for a cite. And if they cite a "no fireworks" rule, then you can
explain that NFPA classifies them separately. From there it may get
deep and involved, but I'd start by asking for the cite.
They may have to back pedal so try not to put them on the spot.
Remember, you want to win them over, not defeat them :)
Doug
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Joel Corwith
"bit eimer" <bit_eimer....@ten.xoc> wrote in message
news:7fm0d.17901$aW5.15165@fed1read07...
> A week or so ago, someone posted a message about the legality of launching
> model rockets in their city's parks (in OR, I think).
>
> So I got curious and called Phoenix Parks and was told that they are NOT
> permitted. This surprised me, as I was told a couple years back by
someone
> in Phoenix Parks that it was OK.
>
> So I go online and check out the Phoenix City Code. Under the Parks
heading
> I find no reference whatsoever to model rockets.
So which are you going to believe. Glendale and Peoria specifically state
{online} that model rockets are not prohibited. We launch in Phoenix
instead.
>
> Has anyone else run into this - where it appears that the Parks employees
> just make up an answer or institute a "rule" with apparently no basis?
Any
> suggestions what to do to "fix" the problem?
Ask them to show you the city code prohibiting that activity.
Joel. phx
Fred Shecter
You ask a Park's Dept person and you get an answer that is either:
1) Official parks Dept policy
or
2) Pulled from their butt (i.e. a guess/opinion/what they think they heard in the past)
You did NOT ask the Fire Authority that has Jurisdiction.
In California, the State Fire Regulations tell you you need to get permission from the
Fire Authority Having Jurisdiction AND the property owner. Getting a Parks Department or
School District to grant permission is possible, but you often need to provide special
insurance naming one or more government entities as additionally insured parties.
More info:
http://home.earthlink.net/~mebowitz/siteaid.pdf
-Fred Shecter NAR 20117
--
"""Remove "zorch" from address (2 places) to reply.
"bit eimer" <bit_eimer....@ten.xoc> wrote in message
news:7fm0d.17901$aW5.15165@fed1read07...
RayDunakin
<< So I got curious and called Phoenix Parks and was told that they are NOT
permitted. This surprised me, as I was told a couple years back by someone in
Phoenix Parks that it was OK.>>
I'm surprised that you ever got an ok in the first place. Asking a bureaucrat
for permission to do anything is like putting steak in front of a dog and
expecting the dog not to eat it.
<< So I go online and check out the Phoenix City Code. Under the Parks heading
I find no reference whatsoever to model rockets. >>
<< Has anyone else run into this - where it appears that the Parks employees
just make up an answer or institute a "rule" with apparently no basis?>>
Bureaucrats do it all the time.
<< Any suggestions what to do to "fix" the problem?>>
Yeah -- stop asking for permission.
shockwaveriderz
I don't know where you are so I don't know what state laws as far as nfpa
codes may be in effect.....I would suggest making an appt. with the HEAD of
the Parks department and bring with me some model rockets and provide a
brochure with information printed from the Estes educator site and be
prepared to explain what model rocketry is.....
It would also be a good idea to have your state law, any applicable nfpa
codes,FAA regulations etc to show that you know what you are talking
about...... In the end provide a small demonstration at their
convenience.....
good luck
shockie B)
"bit eimer" <bit_eimer....@ten.xoc> wrote in message
news:7fm0d.17901$aW5.15165@fed1read07...
Ken Sparks
"bit eimer" <bit_eimer....@ten.xoc> wrote in message
news:7fm0d.17901$aW5.15165@fed1read07...
>
> just make up an answer or institute a "rule" with apparently no basis?
Any
> suggestions what to do to "fix" the problem?
>
Park use policies are normally devised by a parks department and approved by
a city manager or city council. You can work through a city council member,
the city manager, or the person responsible for parks in your city to get
the
policy changed. A local NAR section might also be of assistance - I believe
there are at least two in the Phoenix area.
Phil Stein
<bit_eimer....@ten.xoc> wrote:
>A week or so ago, someone posted a message about the legality of launching
>model rockets in their city's parks (in OR, I think).
>
>So I got curious and called Phoenix Parks and was told that they are NOT
>permitted. This surprised me, as I was told a couple years back by someone
>in Phoenix Parks that it was OK.
>
>So I go online and check out the Phoenix City Code. Under the Parks heading
>I find no reference whatsoever to model rockets.
>
>Has anyone else run into this - where it appears that the Parks employees
>just make up an answer or institute a "rule" with apparently no basis? Any
>suggestions what to do to "fix" the problem?
>
>TIA
Yes. I did it anyway. SOme of the park police would watch & some
would tell me to stop it. When they told me to stop I did (until the
next time)
Phil Stein
Only problem is most Parks people can't even spell NFPA let alone know
what it is.
Douglas
try to get permission beforehand."
Why the heck even bother with asking the city parks department? All
you've done is made them aware of something else that wasn't previously
regulated by them and they will now clamp down on. Just go to the park
and launch rockets, but use common sense. Don't do anything contrary to
the model rocket safety code. Make sure what you're launching will come
down safely in the park. Don't launch your twelve foot tall M powered
behemoth at the local soccer field. Don't be launching when there are
large groups of people around that aren't controlled, as they are at a
club launch. Don't set up in the park right next to some other activity
that is taking place, like a softball game or soccer game. Come back
later when the park is relatively empty, or go somehwere else. Go out
and have fun, chances are no one is going to say anything to you.
My experience has been that people want to watch and ask questions. If
they do, explain how safe and rewarding the hobby is. If by some rare
chance a public official asks youto stop, then stop and work it out
later. Don't make a scene or argue, you'll never launch there again.
Look up the local ordinances at that time and ask for clarification
nicely. If you turn into a pit bull, you'll get nowhere. If they are
still resistant, then do what you can to work with them to allow it.
I've been launching for quite some time at my local parks and schools
(in SE Minnesota) without ever having any problems. I've never asked
permission and never been told to stop. Just go have fun.
Take some kids too, it's the best way to keep the hobby alive.
"bit eimer" <bit_eimer....@ten.xoc> wrote in
news:7fm0d.17901$aW5.15165@fed1read07:
Jerry Irvine
raydu...@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote:
> I'm surprised that you ever got an ok in the first place. Asking a bureaucrat
> for permission to do anything is like putting steak in front of a dog and
> expecting the dog not to eat it.
This should be in the FAQ.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01ro...@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com
My articles valuable? Donate http://tinyurl.com/2hmgv
David Weinshenker
I see... so you take the same attitude toward the park department that
people are complaining about Jerry taking with respect DOT...?
-dave w
Phil Stein
It's more of a credibilty thing. THe local park police don't have
much - kinda like Jerry. Now wipe your face. 8-)
Jerry Irvine
David Weinshenker <daz...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Correct.
Everything re "Jerry" is different.
The exception to the rule.
The target of opportunity.
Phil Stein
David Schultz
rockets. In Arlington, Texas the city code prohibits model rockets in city parks
under:
"No person shall operate a motor driven model airplane; engage in the sport of
archery; launch, discharge, or cause to be launched or discharged paint,
paintballs or any other projectile; or hit a golf ball or golf balls in a City
park; except in areas designated by the Director for such purposes or as
authorized by permit issued by the Director or Park Board."
bit eimer wrote:
> A week or so ago, someone posted a message about the legality of launching
> model rockets in their city's parks (in OR, I think).
>
> So I got curious and called Phoenix Parks and was told that they are NOT
> permitted. This surprised me, as I was told a couple years back by someone
> in Phoenix Parks that it was OK.
>
> So I go online and check out the Phoenix City Code. Under the Parks heading
> I find no reference whatsoever to model rockets.
>
> Has anyone else run into this - where it appears that the Parks employees
> just make up an answer or institute a "rule" with apparently no basis? Any
> suggestions what to do to "fix" the problem?
>
> TIA
>
--
David W. Schultz
http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz
Fred Shecter
OFFENSE.
Reports of officer eating lunch while watching mom and kids launch Alpha III 2 times then
walking over and writing them up for the $2000 fine. Irate mom then went around to one or
more hobby shops in the San Fernando Valley to complain to the store folks (selling them
without warning the customers). Our club also got a call from a guy who was facing the
year in jail for launching in the regional park in Long Beach that is almost directly in
line with a Long Beach Airport runway. He was getting ready to go before the judge. Never
heard from him again...
The so-called-advice to just go ahead and do it/don't ask/ask later is bad. Try the same
advice with other items related to Fire Regulations or using other people's private or
public property.
-Fred Shecter NAR 20117
--
"""Remove "zorch" from address (2 places) to reply.
"Douglas" <douglas.c...@mayo.edu> wrote in message
news:cht1eq$drv$1...@tribune.mayo.edu...
Douglas
he can stay on topic and make rocketry related posts he is very
knowledgable, I'm no defender of him as he can get petty and uncivil at
times, too. However, this was a cheap shot. How come every single thread in
this newsgroup has to be twisted into a Jerry hating comment? This was an
interesting thread about the aspects of public park flying. Now those of us
trying to follow it will have to wade through dozens of posts with one group
making snide remarks about Jerry and then Jerry replying. Soon it will turn
back into the familiar TRA/NAR, ATF, regluations, no regulations, what is
legal and what isn't argument. Someone will then write something about
$40,000 and "Sit down and shut up".
You people are children. Do you ever sit back and look at what you've
become?
Irvine, Weinshenker, Stein, Dunakin, Kaplow, Shecter, and others, get your
fat asses out from behind your computer, gather up some kids, go to a park
and fly some damn rockets. I really wonder if any of you do this anymore, or
if your whole existence and self worth is wrapped up in putting people down
in newsgroups. Get a life.
I'm going to go sander seal some Estes Commanche 3 fins now.
Douglas
"David Weinshenker" <daz...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:41420E6B...@earthlink.net...
Much snipped...
David Erbas-White
>Irvine, Weinshenker, Stein, Dunakin, Kaplow, Shecter, and others, get your
>fat asses out from behind your computer, gather up some kids, go to a park
>and fly some damn rockets. I really wonder if any of you do this anymore, or
>if your whole existence and self worth is wrapped up in putting people down
>in newsgroups. Get a life.
>
>
>
Hey, Doug?
I think you ought to be a little pickier when throwing crap against the
wall, when complaining about it yourself.
Could you please point out where Shecter has taken part in the uncivil
flame threads for/against Jerry/TRA? He's pointed out what the rules
are (here in Kalifornia) that we have to live with.
And FACTUALLY he probably does more of the gathering up kids and getting
them out to fly rockets than anybody else in this group, bar none
(welcome any challenges to this statement, BTW).
David Erbas-White
Phil Stein
wrote:
>Even though Jerry Irvine has been helpful to me in the past, and I find when
>he can stay on topic and make rocketry related posts he is very
>knowledgable, I'm no defender of him as he can get petty and uncivil at
>times, too. However, this was a cheap shot. How come every single thread in
>this newsgroup has to be twisted into a Jerry hating comment? This was an
>interesting thread about the aspects of public park flying. Now those of us
>trying to follow it will have to wade through dozens of posts with one group
>making snide remarks about Jerry and then Jerry replying. Soon it will turn
>back into the familiar TRA/NAR, ATF, regluations, no regulations, what is
>legal and what isn't argument. Someone will then write something about
>$40,000 and "Sit down and shut up".
>
>You people are children. Do you ever sit back and look at what you've
>become?
>
>Irvine, Weinshenker, Stein, Dunakin, Kaplow, Shecter, and others, get your
>fat asses out from behind your computer, gather up some kids, go to a park
>and fly some damn rockets. I really wonder if any of you do this anymore, or
>if your whole existence and self worth is wrapped up in putting people down
>in newsgroups. Get a life.
>
>I'm going to go sander seal some Estes Commanche 3 fins now.
>
>Douglas
>
>
People here have agreed to try to abide by requests for Flame Free
Threads by putting FFT in the subject. If you are to stupid to
understand that then it's your problem - not ours. ANd quit sniffing
the sanding sealer.
Douglas
note too fast. I tried following the FFT thread for awhile, but not all the
way through. Long day at work, tired. Love this newsgroup when things stay
on topic. Hate it when some people get going on tangents. It gets hard to
follow a good thread when the ranting starts. I have found very good
information here before, just takes a lot of wading. So again, I apologize.
And kudos to those flying rockets with the kids.
P.S. I love the smell of sander sealer, am I the only one? BP too.
Joel Corwith
"Douglas" <ch...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:10k497k...@corp.supernews.com...
> I apologize if I included anyone I shouldn't have. I probably wrote that
> > People here have agreed to try to abide by requests for Flame Free
Who?
> > Threads by putting FFT in the subject. If you are to stupid to
> > understand that then it's your problem - not ours. ANd quit sniffing
> > the sanding sealer.
Douglas, if you don't want the civility of TRF, you can add filters of those
you believe lead the name calling (such as above). However, everytime
someone posts a reply to those persons, you will still see the crap.
Joel. phx
>
>
Phil Stein
<rep...@thegroup.pls> wrote:
>
>"Douglas" <ch...@charter.net> wrote in message
>news:10k497k...@corp.supernews.com...
>> I apologize if I included anyone I shouldn't have. I probably wrote that
>
>www.rocketryforum.com
>
>> > People here have agreed to try to abide by requests for Flame Free
>
>Who?
Me. And I think others are too.
Jerry Irvine
"Douglas" <ch...@charter.net> wrote:
> Even though Jerry Irvine has been helpful to me in the past, and I find when
> he can stay on topic and make rocketry related posts he is very
> knowledgable, I'm no defender of him as he can get petty and uncivil at
> times, too. However, this was a cheap shot. How come every single thread in
> this newsgroup has to be twisted into a Jerry hating comment? This was an
> interesting thread about the aspects of public park flying. Now those of us
> trying to follow it will have to wade through dozens of posts with one group
> making snide remarks about Jerry and then Jerry replying. Soon it will turn
> back into the familiar TRA/NAR, ATF, regluations, no regulations, what is
> legal and what isn't argument. Someone will then write something about
> $40,000 and "Sit down and shut up".
>
> You people are children. Do you ever sit back and look at what you've
> become?
>
> Irvine, Weinshenker, Stein, Dunakin, Kaplow, Shecter, and others, get your
> fat asses out from behind your computer, gather up some kids, go to a park
> and fly some damn rockets. I really wonder if any of you do this anymore, or
> if your whole existence and self worth is wrapped up in putting people down
> in newsgroups. Get a life.
>
> I'm going to go sander seal some Estes Commanche 3 fins now.
>
> Douglas
>
This should be in the FAQ.
>
>
>
> "David Weinshenker" <daz...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:41420E6B...@earthlink.net...
>
> Much snipped...
>
> > I see... so you take the same attitude toward the park department that
> > people are complaining about Jerry taking with respect DOT...?
> >
> > -dave w
>
>
--
Jerry Irvine
Phil Stein <PSt...@ArielSystems.spamsks.net> wrote:
It wouldn't kill you to TRY to make every thread FFT if only because the
guy has a point.
See Douglas it is about Phil (and his clones) needing SOMEONE to
criticize. Yes they are multiple offenders with me, but as you see,
anyone, no matter how reasonable, is easy pickins for them.
Jerry
Dave Grayvis
> Everything re "Jerry" is different.
>
> The exception to the rule.
>
> The target of opportunity.
>
And your point is?
Jerry Irvine
David Erbas-White <der...@arachneering.com> wrote:
> And FACTUALLY he probably does more of the gathering up kids and getting
> them out to fly rockets than anybody else in this group, bar none
> (welcome any challenges to this statement, BTW).
>
> David Erbas-White
>
These days yes. I had him beat for many years till I refocused to other
matters.
I conservatively figure I have exposed about 15,000 kids and maybe
20,000 on the outside. These are in hands-on rocket classes. Further I
have done demos for audiences totaling a bit over 2 million (total
cumulative).
These days I take Douglas' advise, grab a few kids and let them shoot
more motors than they could ever hope to afford even with their well
healed parents.
Oh, and a magazine and a fest launch series and a NAR competition
series, and...
What have I done lately? On the 7th day he rested.
Just Jerry
Demitrius Nelon
it's a good thing I didn't do this yesterday when I thought about it,
but I have seen several people launch at one of the parks in Arlington.
Is the prohibition portion the "any other projectile" area? I hope
you didn't get into any trouble over this one, but it seems to me that
there might be some room to allow model rocketry... (my 2 cents)
Phil Stein
If you are not in a club, find one. See what the other club members
know about this. I know thee is one in your area.
MODROCKET
>
>Yeah -- stop asking for permission.
>
rocketry is will only lead to frustration and "No" answers. Kind of reminds me
of the Captital One commercial mocking the credit card companies who always
give you a "no" answer. "No is company policy. Start liking it."
Of course a local govt. employee is not going to tell you "yes" considering the
terrorist paranoia that is running rampant in our nation. Oh well, I 'm kind of
ranting but I am getting a little tired of politicians and govt. regulations in
this country screwing up everything normal Americans enjoy doing. Heck, I can't
even walk down my street anymore because I live near a port on the Mississippi
river! All the barb wire and concrete barriers are not making us any safer.
They just give people a bogus hope of safety and they only keep honest people
out.
Joe
NAR #73346
David Schultz
myself. The prohibition against "projectiles" gets model rockets among other
things. It is the only thing in the city code that even comes close.
Demitrius Nelon wrote:
> I'm in the D/FW area myself. I didn't know about this one. I guess
> it's a good thing I didn't do this yesterday when I thought about it,
> but I have seen several people launch at one of the parks in Arlington.
> Is the prohibition portion the "any other projectile" area? I hope you
> didn't get into any trouble over this one, but it seems to me that there
> might be some room to allow model rocketry... (my 2 cents)
>
> David Schultz wrote:
>
>> You might need to look for something other than a specific prohibition
>> on model
>> rockets. In Arlington, Texas the city code prohibits model rockets in
>> city parks
>> under:
>>
>> "No person shall operate a motor driven model airplane; engage in the
>> sport of
>> archery; launch, discharge, or cause to be launched or discharged paint,
>> paintballs or any other projectile; or hit a golf ball or golf balls
>> in a City
>> park; except in areas designated by the Director for such purposes or as
>> authorized by permit issued by the Director or Park Board."
>>
>>
DaveL
>
> $1000 and/or 1 year in jail in CA for violating the State Fire Regulations FOR EACH
> OFFENSE.
Fred, the rest of the US is not California. When you answer regulatory
questions, please remember that.
Jerry Irvine
David Erbas-White
>In article <r4p0d.17958$aW5.17939@fed1read07>,
> David Erbas-White <der...@arachneering.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>And FACTUALLY he probably does more of the gathering up kids and getting
>>them out to fly rockets than anybody else in this group, bar none
>>(welcome any challenges to this statement, BTW).
>>
>>David Erbas-White
>>
>>
>>
>
>These days yes. I had him beat for many years till I refocused to other
>matters.
>
>
>
You will note I DID use the present tense. But I also note that he has
been doing this continously for the past many years that I've known him...
David Erbas-White
Jerry Irvine
David Erbas-White <der...@arachneering.com> wrote:
The first thing Fred and I did when he moved here is go to many dealer
demos for Estes. Kinda like the two stooges :)
I had done demos for many of them before and there was a considerable
amount of turnover as well.
I had lots of pads of course.
So we were of like mind at some point. He consistently did the yoemans
work of the SCRA club while I did Lucerne. I had the 10+ years of WEEKLY
club model rocket launches under my belt and was understandably burned
out on that.
bit eimer
One comment wrt those who take the approach "launch now, ask questions
later": suppose one inadvertantly (or even advertantly) breaks a city
ordinance/rule by launching in a park and causes some damage and/or injury.
Does one's personal liability insurance still apply? What about NAR
insurance?
--
...The Bit Eimer [remove keinewurst and reverse letters in domain to
email me]
"My goal in life is to be the kind of person my cat thinks he is"
--------------------------------------------------------------
"bit eimer" <bit_eimer....@ten.xoc> wrote in message
news:7fm0d.17901$aW5.15165@fed1read07...
>A week or so ago, someone posted a message about the legality of launching
>model rockets in their city's parks (in OR, I think).
>
> So I got curious and called Phoenix Parks and was told that they are NOT
> permitted. This surprised me, as I was told a couple years back by
> someone in Phoenix Parks that it was OK.
>
> So I go online and check out the Phoenix City Code. Under the Parks
> heading I find no reference whatsoever to model rockets.
>
> Has anyone else run into this - where it appears that the Parks employees
> just make up an answer or institute a "rule" with apparently no basis?
> Any suggestions what to do to "fix" the problem?
>
> TIA
>
> --
> ...The Bit Eimer [remove keinewurst and reverse letters in domain to
> email me]
>
> "My goal in life is to be the kind of person my cat thinks he is"
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
Hippiestew
"Do as I say and nobody will get shot with my Estes ALPHA on a B6-4"
Seriously though, a suburb of western Birmingham AL won't allow them because
they fall into that "Projectile" category...
Jeeze...
Dave Grayvis
What about baseballs?
EldredP
writes:
>P.S. I love the smell of sander sealer, am I the only one? BP too.
BP, yes. Sanding sealer I could do without...<g>
Eldred
--
http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Screamers League
IICC League
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Hist. +82.34 MoH:na
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Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin
Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro
US East
Rebar Rocketry
I resent this remark! :)
Doug Parks
--
_______________________________________________
http://www.rebar-rocketry.com
Selling the hottest model rocketry products on the 'net.
"Phil Stein" <PSt...@ArielSystems.spamsks.net> wrote in message
news:pc24k0l7nrbo9f10s...@4ax.com...
> Only problem is most Parks people can't even spell NFPA let alone know
> what it is.
RayDunakin
<< Of course a local govt. employee is not going to tell you "yes" considering
the terrorist paranoia that is running rampant in our nation. >>
That's certainly a part of it, but a bigger issue is lawsuit paranoia. That and
the basic bureaucratic inclination to cover their butts -- "better to deny
permission than to be the guy on the spot if something goes wrong".
RayDunakin
<< I see... so you take the same attitude toward the park department that
people are complaining about Jerry taking with respect DOT...? >>
If Phil were really comparable to Jerry, it would go like this:
Phil would ignore the law until someone told him that flying rockets in the
park was illegal. Then he would complain that the laws prohibiting rockets in
the park were a figment of TRA's imagination, concocted as part of a secret
plot against him. Then he would continue flying in the park, and lie about,
until he got fined for it. He would then blame TRA and various other third
parties who had nothing to do with it.
Unless Phil follows those steps, his attitude is not comparable to Jerry's.
RayDunakin
<< Irvine, Weinshenker, Stein, Dunakin, Kaplow, Shecter, and others, get your
fat asses out from behind your computer, gather up some kids, go to a park and
fly some damn rockets. I really wonder if any of you do this anymore, or if
your whole existence and self worth is wrapped up in putting people down in
newsgroups. Get a life. >>
Douglas, I can't speak for the others but I for one do have a life, and do fly
rockets as frequently as time permits. (Which is never often enough, of
course!)
I also feel you are mischaracterizing my posts. Yes, there have been occasions
when I've lost my patience and engaged in a bit of name calling, but for the
most part I try to stick to the facts and issues, and debate the merits of the
positions.
BTW, the post you quoted and which you call "a cheap shot", was made by Jerry's
number one fan, Dave W. and it was directed at Phil, not Jerry.
RayDunakin
<< I apologize if I included anyone I shouldn't have.>>
Accepted. :)
<< I probably wrote that note too fast.>>
Been there, done that -- and probably a lot more often.
RayDunakin
under: "No person shall operate a motor driven model airplane; engage in the
sport of archery; launch, discharge, or cause to be launched or discharged
paint, paintballs or any other projectile; or hit a golf ball or golf balls in
a City park; except in areas designated by the Director for such purposes or as
authorized by permit issued by the Director or Park Board." >>
How asinine! Typical vague, catch-all bureaucratic phrase meant to be applied
only when it suits them -- do they enforce it for Frisbees or children's balls?
BTW, to the person in Phoenix -- it's been a few years, but last time I was in
the Phoenix area it was surrounded by lots of open desert. Why not just go out
there?
RayDunakin
<< One comment wrt those who take the approach "launch now, ask questions
later": suppose one inadvertantly (or even advertantly) breaks a city
ordinance/rule by launching in a park and causes some damage and/or injury.
Does one's personal liability insurance still apply? What about NAR insurance?
>>
I doubt that NAR insurance would cover it. Personal liability probably would
unless it was an intentional act (i.e., firing the rocket _at_ somebody).
Covered or not, I'd recommend always using extreme caution when flying in a
public area. The best way to avoid liability problems is not to cause them in
the first place.
Phil Stein
problem.
Phil Stein
There have been more deaths & injuries caused by baseballs. That's
why they're ok to use in the parks.
Phil Stein
Also, if I were Jerry, I'd probably change the date on the date on the
ticket to some time before rockets were not allowed (like 1890).
Jerry Irvine
raydu...@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote:
He is not "my number one man".
He simply reads and understands logic and facts and supports them
despite sniping like yours.
You do NOT debate the merits in my opinion.
You are the king of mischaracterization.
Randy
> There have been more deaths & injuries caused by baseballs. That's
> why they're ok to use in the parks.
Apparently. Steward is right though. We live in an environment where the
baby is frequently thrown out with the bath water.
Randy
Jerry Irvine
raydu...@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote:
That may be your perspective, but it is not the true fact of it.
This is a perfect example of your being the king of recharacterization
as referred to in another post.
Phil Stein
wrote:
He didn't write "my number one man" he wrote "my number one fan."
Other than for amusement, we're not really interested in who your
number one man is. If you're shopping, I think Dave would make a good
one.
Phil Stein
Dave Grayvis
Dave W. Let's keep the names straight. :)
W. E.Fred Wallace
Jerry Irvine wrote:
>Deleted jerry drival/jerry speak
> Jerry
>
Well, nothing to respond to again..
Fred
W. E.Fred Wallace
Jerry Irvine wrote:
>
> In article <20040911022343...@mb-m12.aol.com>,
> raydu...@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote:
>
> > Dave W. wrote:
> > << I see... so you take the same attitude toward the park department that
> > people are complaining about Jerry taking with respect DOT...? >>
> >
> > If Phil were really comparable to Jerry, it would go like this:
> >
> > Phil would ignore the law until someone told him that flying rockets in the
> > park was illegal. Then he would complain that the laws prohibiting rockets in
> > the park were a figment of TRA's imagination, concocted as part of a secret
> > plot against him. Then he would continue flying in the park, and lie about,
> > until he got fined for it. He would then blame TRA and various other third
> > parties who had nothing to do with it.
> >
> > Unless Phil follows those steps, his attitude is not comparable to Jerry's.
> >
> >
> >
>
> That may be your perspective, but it is not the true fact of it.
>
> Deleted jerry drival..
>
> Jerry
I thought it was very good perspective and a very good
characterization of your behavior..
Fred
Jerry Irvine
"Randy" <rand...@charter.net> wrote:
That is because outcomes are determined by who is doing the throwing and
not by any objective fact.
Jerry
David Weinshenker
> Well, nothing to respond to again..
Well, not if you delete it all first, silly! :)
-dave w
Jerry Irvine
So why did you?
Your purpose in life is very clear. Harass Jerry.
Your daughter learning well?
W. E.Fred Wallace
Unfortunately, when reading jerry's post, I started deleting what
had no substance and when I was done, there was nothing remaining,
except to acknowledge the fact.
Fred
W. E.Fred Wallace
Jerry Irvine wrote:
>
> In article <414311A3...@boe.com>,
> "W. E.Fred Wallace" <frede...@boe.com> wrote:
>
> > Jerry Irvine wrote:
> > >Deleted jerry drival/jerry speak
> >
> > > Jerry
> > >
> >
> > Well, nothing to respond to again..
> >
> > Fred
>
> Your daughter learning well?
>
> Jerry
Jerry,
You are approaching dangerous ground my friend. Say what you want
about me, but pay attention to this WARNING:
Your personal safety is at risk, if you continue reference to and
comments concerning my family, in particular, my daughter.. You can
take my response as a promise of reaction or threat, whichever you
like.
Fred Wallace
David Weinshenker
Should the sameapply to Dave Grayvis for mentioning Jerry's mother?
-dave w
bit eimer
public property and definitely somewhere you don't want to be without
permission.
--
...The Bit Eimer [remove keinewurst and reverse letters in domain to
email me]
"My goal in life is to be the kind of person my cat thinks he is"
--------------------------------------------------------------
"RayDunakin" <raydu...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040911025158...@mb-m12.aol.com...
W. E.Fred Wallace
David Weinshenker wrote:
>
>
> Should the sameapply to Dave Grayvis for mentioning Jerry's mother?
>
> -dave w
I don't respond, "for others", in such a manner as I did directly to
jerry. In my case, a persons family is an area I tread lightly on and
demand the same from any one else, so inclined toward my family,
especially my children. Other than what I just said we have nothing
further to discuss on this issue, as there is nothing debatable to my
position.
Fred
Phil Stein
<frede...@boe.com> wrote:
I say send Megan to CA. She can kick Jerry's ass (figuratively of
course) & go to Disneyland afterwards. 8-)
Phil Stein
I think that dhould be Jerry's decision.
Dave Grayvis
It's the only way it makes any sense at all.
Dave Grayvis
> Lots of the "lots of open desert" is actually Indian reservation - not
> public property and definitely somewhere you don't want to be without
> permission.
>
Ask the Indians for permission.
bit eimer
--
...The Bit Eimer [remove keinewurst and reverse letters in domain to
email me]
"My goal in life is to be the kind of person my cat thinks he is"
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Dave Grayvis" <davegr...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:Z5G0d.2363$2q1....@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
Dave Grayvis
> They don't give permission.
>
So, you have asked?
Jerry Irvine
"bit eimer" <bit_eimer....@ten.xoc> wrote:
re Indians
> They don't give permission.
They gave permission to Quest and look at what happened :)
Jerry Irvine
Dave Grayvis <davegr...@netscape.net> wrote:
Pretty sure he doesn't have to ask himself.
Dave Grayvis
> In article <pwG0d.2366$Yw1...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com>,
> Dave Grayvis <davegr...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
>>bit eimer wrote:
>>
>>
>>>They don't give permission.
>>>
>>
>>So, you have asked?
>
>
> Pretty sure he doesn't have to ask himself.
>
He isn't, I am.
bit eimer
--
...The Bit Eimer [remove keinewurst and reverse letters in domain to
email me]
"My goal in life is to be the kind of person my cat thinks he is"
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Dave Grayvis" <davegr...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:pwG0d.2366$Yw1...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
Mike Pearson <see .sig>
> Hey thanks for all the posts - lots of more-or-less good advice and ideas.
> One comment wrt those who take the approach "launch now, ask questions
> later": suppose one inadvertantly (or even advertantly) breaks a city
> ordinance/rule by launching in a park and causes some damage and/or injury.
> Does one's personal liability insurance still apply? What about NAR
> insurance?
Ignorance of the law is no excuse; acting like you're ignorant of the
law just gets you a 57K fine, but you might be able to get it lowered to
40K.
--
Mike KD7PVT
NAR #70953 - Sr/HPR Level-1 ~ BEMRC - NAR Section #627
NO Junk Email, please! Real email to: amphoto [at] blarg [dot] net.
<WANTED: Experienced Kamikaze Pilot>
Randy
"bit eimer" <bit_eimer....@ten.xoc> wrote in message
news:X%t0d.18990$aW5.1178@fed1read07...
> Hey thanks for all the posts - lots of more-or-less good advice and ideas.
Something else to consider is what Section 665 is doing here in B'ham. The
city has many parks but none I know of, are really usable for flying. The
club has 3 fields, the local city field, is actually a landfill. You can see
the article here:
http://www.birminghamrocketboys.com/BreakingNews/Historical/NewGeorgiaLandfill.htm
It was used for construction waste (no garbage or stink) and has mostly been
reclaimed. It makes an excellent and convenient flying field, less than 5
minutes from downtown. Every city or county won't have a landfill that can
you can fly from but there are a lot of them around and it couldn't hurt to
check into it.
Randy
Fred Shecter
Your fine may be $5000 per violation or even a felony.
The local example was just that. You need to find out your own laws and regulations.
Ignoring them is no excuse (and makes lawyers quite rich).
--
-Fred Shecter
Auctions:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=shreadvector
To reply by e-mail, remove zorch two places.
"DaveL" <spam...@last.net> wrote in message news:41425252...@last.net...
> Fred Shecter wrote:
> >
> > $1000 and/or 1 year in jail in CA for violating the State Fire Regulations FOR EACH
> > OFFENSE.
>
> Fred, the rest of the US is not California. When you answer regulatory
> questions, please remember that.
RayDunakin
public property and definitely somewhere you don't want to be without
permission.>>
Yeah, that's one of the things that sucks about AZ, and is the main reason I
rarely travel or launch there. Seems like the state breaks down into 40%
national parks, 45% reservations, 10% private property, and maybe 5% public
land. :(
EldredP
<01ro...@gte.net> writes:
>In article <FsG0d.19126$aW5.13300@fed1read07>,
> "bit eimer" <bit_eimer....@ten.xoc> wrote:
>
>re Indians
>
>> They don't give permission.
>
>They gave permission to Quest and look at what happened :)
What happened?
Eldred
--
http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Screamers League
IICC League
GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80
Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71
Hist. +82.34 MoH:na
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Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin
Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro
US East
AlMax
news:01rocket-7610C9...@corp.supernews.com...
> In article <FsG0d.19126$aW5.13300@fed1read07>,
> They gave permission to Quest and look at what happened :)
what happened ?
AlMax
news:X%t0d.18990$aW5.1178@fed1read07...
> Hey thanks for all the posts - lots of more-or-less good advice and ideas.
> later": suppose one inadvertantly (or even advertantly) breaks a city
> ordinance/rule by launching in a park and causes some damage and/or
injury.
> Does one's personal liability insurance still apply? What about NAR
> insurance?
Lets put this in perspective.
Rockets seem to take every thing out to the end of the pier for some reason.
You run a red light, and hit a car, does your personal liability pay ?
Yes it does.
Jerry Irvine
eld...@aol.comSPAM-OFF (EldredP) wrote:
> In article <01rocket-7610C9...@corp.supernews.com>, Jerry Irvine
> <01ro...@gte.net> writes:
>
> >In article <FsG0d.19126$aW5.13300@fed1read07>,
> > "bit eimer" <bit_eimer....@ten.xoc> wrote:
> >
> >re Indians
> >
> >> They don't give permission.
> >
> >They gave permission to Quest and look at what happened :)
>
> What happened?
>
> Eldred
Incident in Yuma several years ago. do a search.
AlMax
>
> Incident in Yuma several years ago. do a search.
only thing I find is this future report from shrox while he was time surfing
?
>>--------------------------------------------------
Actually it is New Yuma. The Great Quake of 2008 sank the Pacific plate just
enough to make the Colorado River into a new shoreline. By 2014 new gambling
legislation made Yuma, Arizona the new Monte Carlo of the West. The quake
was
also call the "Trump Bump" because of the casinos that sprang up along the
coastline to service the restoration crews that went to work rebuilding
California, thus making Donald Trump a fortune worth 5 Bill Gates.
Dave Grayvis
> In article <20040912074611...@mb-m14.aol.com>,
> eld...@aol.comSPAM-OFF (EldredP) wrote:
>
>
>>In article <01rocket-7610C9...@corp.supernews.com>, Jerry Irvine
>><01ro...@gte.net> writes:
>>
>>
>>>In article <FsG0d.19126$aW5.13300@fed1read07>,
>>>"bit eimer" <bit_eimer....@ten.xoc> wrote:
>>>
>>>re Indians
>>>
>>>
>>>>They don't give permission.
>>>
>>>They gave permission to Quest and look at what happened :)
>>
>>What happened?
>>
>>Eldred
>
>
> Incident in Yuma several years ago. do a search.
>
What an ass.
bit eimer
and I did, in fact, think of exactly the example you give (the red light).
But it wasn't so obvious to me that NAR's backup insurance would pay. If
the terms of the insurance policy specify that one must be in full
compliance with all applicable law at the time of the launch, one might be
SOL.
As to the pier, I'm not out at the end; just looking out along it to see
what might be there waiting. :^)
--
...The Bit Eimer [remove keinewurst and reverse letters in domain to
email me]
"My goal in life is to be the kind of person my cat thinks he is"
--------------------------------------------------------------
"AlMax" <a...@unverified.com> wrote in message
news:qYudnRjlRpC...@buckeye-express.com...
Jerry Latham
> Our local NRA section has - answer: NFW.
>
I'm not sure what NAR section you made contact with, but if you go to
www.sssrocketry.org and look at their front page, under the July
launch info, you will find that they have in fact held a Launch in a
city of Phoenix park. And they will be do more launches in the future
with the city of Phoenix's blessings. This organization went to great
lenghts to get permittion to do launches in Phoenix parks. Just check
the web site every once in a while to find out when the next Phoenix
Park launch will be. Better yet, come to their meetings and launches.
Thanks,
Jerry Latham
Ken Sparks
news:76d550da.0409...@posting.google.com:
The launch was in a city of Glendale park. One of the
designated uses of that park is for launching model
rockets.
Fred Shecter
;-)
-Fred Shecter NAR 20117
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=shreadvector
--
"""Remove "zorch" from address (2 places) to reply.
"Ken Sparks" <kwsp...@the.newsgroup> wrote in message
news:Xns9562D57C87CE0...@68.6.19.6...
Jerry Latham
La Predera Park is a city of Phoenix Park. NOT Glendale. La Predera
Park is at 40th and Glendale Avenue. The city of Glendale doesn't
start until 43rd Avenue and Glendale. There is a sign out front that
says it is a Phoenix city park. I know because I've lived in the area
for over 40 years. Here is some help if you still don't beleave me.
The following is the city of Phoenix web page for Phoenix city parks:
http://www.ci.phoenix.az.us/PARKS/parks.html.
Also, Ken you were at the meetings when John told everyone it was the
city of PHOENIX. You were at the launch!
Jerry Latham
Ken Sparks <kwsp...@the.newsgroup> wrote in message news:<Xns9562D57C87CE0...@68.6.19.6>...
Joel Corwith
"Ken Sparks" <kwsp...@the.newsgroup> wrote in message
news:Xns9562D57C87CE0...@68.6.19.6...
> designated uses of that park is for launching model
> rockets.
No, my map clearly shows Glendale's Eastern boarder at 43rd Ave while the
park is at 39th Ave. A quick search shows:
http://www.ci.phoenix.az.us/PARKS/parks.html#L
The first being the park in question, in Phoenix.
Park rules for Glendale and Peoria (no launching rockets):
http://www.ci.glendale.az.us/Recreation/ParkRules.cfm
http://www.peoriaaz.com/parks/parks_rules.asp
Joel. phx
And with the exception of the FREAKING HEAT, it was a very nice, family
oriented launch.
Ken Sparks
"Fred Shecter" <fred.e....@zorch.alum.zorch.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:I3zFI...@news.boeing.com...
> There are many, many Glendales out there in the USA. Like Springfields....
>
> ;-)
> > > you go to www.sssrocketry.org and look at their front page,
> > > under the July launch info, you will find that they have in
> > > fact held a Launch in a city of Phoenix park.
> > The launch was in a city of Glendale park. One of the
> > designated uses of that park is for launching model
> > rockets.
>
Yes, but there is only one near Phoenix (AZ)
bit eimer
<snip>
DO NOT
a.. Use park when closed.
b.. Damage, change or remove park property.
c.. Litter or dump.
d.. Hunt or harass animals.
e.. Abandon animals.
f.. Golf.
g.. Climb trees.
h.. Smoke in enclosed facilities and restrooms.
i.. Swim or operate water craft or pollute in waters.
j.. Operate radio-controlled models and model rockets.
k.. Operate unlicensed motorized vehicles (ATVs, motorized skateboards).
l.. Land or launch airplanes, helicopters, gliders, hot air balloons or
parachutes. 27-51
m.. Hike or ride off marked trails. 27-51
<snip>
Looks like the Glendale park rules only prohibit radio-controlled model
rockets and rockets with parachutes - at least that's my interpretation of
these well-written and unambiguous rules.
So use a streamer. <grin>
--
...The Bit Eimer [remove keinewurst and reverse letters in domain to
email me]
"My goal in life is to be the kind of person my cat thinks he is"
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Joel Corwith" <rep...@thegroup.pls> wrote in message
news:4145b93d$0$99886$4c5e...@news.getnet.net...
Jerry Irvine
"bit eimer" <bit_eimer....@ten.xoc> wrote:
> Glendale park rules:
>
> <snip>
>
> DO NOT
> a.. Use park when closed.
> b.. Damage, change or remove park property.
> c.. Litter or dump.
> d.. Hunt or harass animals.
> e.. Abandon animals.
> f.. Golf.
> g.. Climb trees.
> h.. Smoke in enclosed facilities and restrooms.
> i.. Swim or operate water craft or pollute in waters.
> j.. Operate radio-controlled models and model rockets.
> k.. Operate unlicensed motorized vehicles (ATVs, motorized skateboards).
> l.. Land or launch airplanes, helicopters, gliders, hot air balloons or
> parachutes. 27-51
> m.. Hike or ride off marked trails. 27-51
> <snip>
That's alot of rules for a "public" area.
I bet they all have punative penalties too, as opposed to "guidelines
for fellow citizens".
You know like NFPA vs the safety code.
Jerry
Fred Shecter
Mile Square Regional Park is a regional park "owned" by the County of Orange. The land it
sits on is completely surrounded by an incorporated city - the City of Fountain Valley. As
a matter of fact, the City also has a section of the "square" that is leased to it for
their recreation center. We had the lawyers from the County and the City spend quite a bit
of time as they tossed the 'hot potato' of responsibility back and forth. Here is how it
worked out:
The County land requires a "use permit" from the County. The City leased land requires a
"use permit" from the City. Since the entire park is surrounded by the City of Fountain
Valley, all Fire Authority permits must be obtained from the City, since they are the ones
who have to respond to fires.
The County and City have had a long history regarding who has jurisdiction for police
patrols, etc.
And, of course, no matter which entity you obtain the "use permit" from you will have to
obtain specially worded insurance certificates naming various government entities/agencies
as additionally insured. Some even require an extra special document beyond the normal
certificates.
And after you get all that done, they turn the park into another golf course and soccer
fields with HUGE use fees.
:-(
-Fred Shecter NAR 20117
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=shreadvector
--
"""Remove "zorch" from address (2 places) to reply.
"Ken Sparks" <kenneth....@moc.gnieob> wrote in message
news:I3zoE...@news.boeing.com...
Bob Kaplow
> Has anyone else run into this - where it appears that the Parks employees
> just make up an answer or institute a "rule" with apparently no basis? Any
> suggestions what to do to "fix" the problem?
The standard answer from any government employee is "NO".
You need to properly word your question. The proper question is "Is there
any rule that prohibits flying model rockets at xxxx?" If they say yes, ask
for a copy of the rule.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
David Weinshenker
> Glendale park rules:
> DO NOT
> [...]
> d.. Hunt or harass animals.
> e.. Abandon animals.
These folks sure like to cover their bases: you're
not supposed to catch any animals _or_ let them go!
-dave w
Bob Kaplow
> I live by the credo, "It's always better to ask forgiveness later than
> try to get permission beforehand."
"If it's a good idea, go ahead and do it. It's much easier to apologize than
it is to get permission." Rear Adm Grace Murray Hopper
Flying in a public park with out at least checking first is NOT a good idea.
Here in the Chicago area, we've had folks come to us after getting a $100
ticket for launching rockets in places that permit RC airplanes. Or the
regular NIRA launch site if you don't have a permit.
In fact, after flying on a field for about 6 years (includign hosting
NARAM-33) we had them come back to us and tell us it was illegal for us to
do so. Then we did a dog and pony show, and got them to change their mind.
We've use 4-5 different sites over the years, but it's still the same forest
rpeserve district we fly at.
Bob Kaplow
> You might need to look for something other than a specific prohibition on model
> rockets. In Arlington, Texas the city code prohibits model rockets in city parks
> under:
>
> "No person shall operate a motor driven model airplane; engage in the sport of
> archery; launch, discharge, or cause to be launched or discharged paint,
> paintballs or any other projectile; or hit a golf ball or golf balls in a City
> park; except in areas designated by the Director for such purposes or as
> authorized by permit issued by the Director or Park Board."
Those last 2 lines are the key. You need permission in most places.
And what might work for an individual (launch and run) will NOT work for a
club or other group.
David Weinshenker
> And after you get all that done, they turn the
> park into another golf course and soccer
> fields with HUGE use fees.
And I bet they're nowhere near as fussy about
insurance for the soccer games, even though
they're more dangerous. (Kids don't seem to
hurt themselves nearly as often chasing the
rockets...)
-dave w