Constucting Model Rockets - Which Glues Are Best??
Phil A
anyone has any ideas about glues. I've check the FAQ and gotten some info
there as well.
Anyone have any words of caution/praise for use of the following?
1. Hot Glue Gun - seems like a very strong bond - but the faq doesn't
mention it's use (as far as I can tell).
2. Crazy Glue - for FINS?
3. Elmer's Glue - too weak?
Also, does anyone out there use "Sanding Sealer" as proposed by the Estes
directions (as optional) or do you use methods as proposed in the FAQ
(Elmer's Finish Filler, Modeler's Putty, etc)?
What specifically do you guys use for the "fillets" to bring the fins and
body together.
Thanks in advance for all of your help! This is an addictive hobby!
Phil
coach...@mailcity.com
www.felixculpa.com/phil
bob fortune
Hey Phil,
Some people use the hot melt glue for tacking things in place until the
main adhesive used, like epoxy or yellow glue, is cured enough. I don't
see why you couldn't use this glue in places that don't get hot but you
should really try it first in real conditions to see what happens to the
glue.
Make a dummy test rocket, hot melt glue some stuff inside the BT like
rings or baffles, paint it black and leave it outside on a hot day. If
everything stays in one place, nothing has peeled and its still solid
then go for it I suppose. These glues are quick but have lousy peel
strength from what I have seen. On the outside of a rocket it looks
really cheesy as it can't be sanded and does not take paint well if at
all. Inside a tube set off a small BP charge or two or three and see
what the hot gasses do to the glue. Experimentation is good and it's a
fun and interesting way to learn.
Lots of people use crazy glue but purchased in larger quantities at the
hobby store. Folks here call it CA here and so do the hobby shops. It
works great for lots of things especially plastic to wood joints. Many
use this as a sole attachment for fins to rockets. If the fin pops off
on landing just reglue it. There is a Mr Eng here that might chime in
for some pointers here. CA can also be accelerated to dry in seconds
with a product called a kicker. Ask for "kicker for CA" at the hobby
shop. You need a little pump bottle for it as well. It is startling
how fast it cures the CA, before you know it all your fingers are stuck
together. CA doesn't have much shear strength, from what I have seen,
and it is susceptible to shock loads (it goes Ping! at inopportune
times) so you have to be careful where you use it. The thin variety does
amazing things to paper, you have to try this to believe it.
Elmers white glue is kind of wimpy but it works good for couplers as
its somewhat repositionable. That is, once you insert a coupler you
have a slight chance of moving it around if you screw up. Most people
use yellow or aliphatic glue for paper to paper or wood to paper joints,
it is amazingly strong stuff.
IMHO the best filler for wood of any type is Elmers Finishing Wood
Filler. Used to be Fill And Finish or some such nonsense, I forget. The
best, no bout adout it. Fast build, great adhesion, fantastic sanding
... it does everything right. Some people also use this for fillets on
fins, make a fillet, sand to shape, then soak with thin CA. And that's
it.
I have never used the modeler's putty you mentioned. Lots of people
call this out by a brand called squadron putty and they seem happy with
it. Seems to be used mostly by scale modelers into detail from what I
can tell.
Here's an adhesive shopping list for you:
Hobby store
1 ounce thin CA
1 ounce thick CA
1 2 ounce squirt bottle of kicker
1 kit 15 minute epoxy - 2 each - 4 oz bottles
if they have microballoons and/or milled fiberglass for a decent price
pick some up. These make dandy admixtures for the epoxy.
If you want the Squadron putty get it here
Leave the store before you buy anything else. The above will set you
back about $35 or so. If you can get out of the hobby store without
spending $100 then you're in good shape. If you wander up and down every
aisle you are screwed, kiss your visa card good-bye.
next stop: Lumber World/ Home Depot/ big monster home improvement store
1 4 ounce bottle of yellow glue, Titebond is a good brand
1 8 ounce tub of Elmer's Finishing wood filler (Fwf)
1 16 ounce can of Denatured Alcohol
1 16 ounce can of Acetone
All you need now is popsicle sticks, a cutting mat, a good steel rule,
some x-acto blades, a handy door frame, and legal pad of paper for
mixing your glues on and you are set!
Until you start painting
or flying
or driving 6 hours to launches and flying
Enjoy yourself!
Bob
Jim K
rates CAs, epoxies, plastic cements, and wood glues. What I found
interesting was that "Ross All Purpose White Glue" was found stronger
than several yellow wood glues.
On Tue, 27 Jul 1999 22:14:46 -0400, "Phil A"
<coach...@mailcity.com> wrote:
>As I stated in a previous post (7-26), I'm new to this. I'm wondering if
>anyone has any ideas about glues. I've check the FAQ and gotten some info
>there as well.
>snipped
Jim Kajpust - Personal Responsibility - Personal Freedoms
Michigan - www.concentric.net/~jkajpust
Rocket9005
For model rockets, any thing up to and including E motors, I use Elmers
Carpenters (yellow) Glue. If you rub a little into the root edge before you do
the real glueing, and use a push pin to push little holes 1/4" apart into the
body tube in a line under the fins you will get a very strong bond. In fact I
have had the balsa fins break before the glue does. I am glad that Estes in now
using "through the wall" fins now, this makes for a very strong bond. The
Carpenters glus is still water soulable while it is drying, so you can clean it
up with a damp paper towel if it gets where it's not susposed to be.
I use Balsa fill coat on balsa fins, and sanding sealer on plywood fins.
Usually 4 coats does it. Then I use white Krylon sandable primer over it. There
is no excuse for grain in fins, it looks bad and cuts down on your altitude.
Khim Bittle
>>following?
>>1. Hot Glue Gun - seems like a very strong bond - but the faq
>>doesn't mention it's use (as far as I can tell).
fins with it the engine heat can make'm fall off.
>>2. Crazy Glue - for FINS?
like soaking balsa to increase strength but see below.
>>3. Elmer's Glue - too weak?
is stronger than the materials you are gluing. For higher power
and stronger tubes like phonelic use epoxy.
regards, KB
DanH
>
> As I stated in a previous post (7-26), I'm new to this. I'm wondering if
> anyone has any ideas about glues. I've check the FAQ and gotten some info
> there as well.
>
>
> 1. Hot Glue Gun - seems like a very strong bond - but the faq doesn't
> mention it's use (as far as I can tell).
Will melt off and does not hold well the way rockets will tear it.
> 2. Crazy Glue - for FINS?
I use it to tack the fins on so they stay put when I'm fibreglassing the
rocket or using epoxy to make the filettes.
> 3. Elmer's Glue - too weak?
I've had fins rip off on a C motor with white glue.
>
> Also, does anyone out there use "Sanding Sealer" as proposed by the Estes
> directions (as optional) or do you use methods as proposed in the FAQ
> (Elmer's Finish Filler, Modeler's Putty, etc)?
If I'm not going to fibreglass the rocket (I didn't on the Fat Boy) I
still use the finishing resin that you use to fibreglass. Just don't
use any cloth and sand the snot out of the cardboard to get the wax off
and the fins to open the grain so the resin can soak into them.
>
> What specifically do you guys use for the "fillets" to bring the fins and
> body together.
Epoxy almost exclusively.
Dan
--
UNIX - Not just for vestal virgins anymore
Linux - Choice of a GNU generation
Jim Z number 2
and I'm heading for the hobby shop. Hmmm...on second thought I'd better bring
two :-) Lucky for me, there's no Home Depot in central VT...you can *really
spend some $ there!)
>CA can also be accelerated to dry in seconds
>with a product called a kicker. Ask for "kicker for CA" at the hobby
>shop. You need a little pump bottle for it as well. It is startling
>how fast it cures.....
Am I mistaken, or did I read somewhere that "CA kicker" is nothing more than
distilled water?
Jim Z "#2"
"if I could I would, but I don't know how"
-Phish
Bruce Kirchner
>1. Hot Glue Gun - seems like a very strong bond - but the faq doesn't mention
it's use (as far as I can tell).
>2. Crazy Glue - for FINS?
>3. Elmer's Glue - too weak?
Oh Boy! A glue thread!
Phil, I wouldn't use a hot glue gun for any purpose building rockets except to
maybe tack a piece to something temporarily. Crazy glue is a name brand for a
not suitable for rocket applications cyanoacrylate (sp?) ie: superglue ( CA).
Quality CA glues are versatile and usefull in our hobby. They come in thin,
medium and thick formulations and will bond most materials in seconds. Here are
a few brand names to look for - Bob Smith, Hot Stuff, SIG, ZAP - available at
hobby shops. Elmer's glue (white or yellow) is an excellant glue for
constructing model rockets. Strong bonds, quick curing and easy to clean up
after. Most model rockets are constructed with Elmer's. One of the RMR denizens
(Mark Simpson) built a huge scratchbuilt that flew on a J350 using nothing but
Titebond. I prefer to build using 5 and 20 minute epoxies and CA's for most of
my stuff.
>Thanks in advance for all of your help! This is an addictive hobby!<
Psssssttt! Hey buddy? Wanna buy some AP? :-)
--
Bruce Kirchner
TRA L1 #5888 NAR #69850
Michigan Team 1 HUVARS
Visit My Rocketry Home Page - http://members.aol.com/balthezar/index.html
Jim Z number 2
>
>Psssssttt! Hey buddy? Wanna buy some AP? :-)
BwaHaHaHaHa !!! Nice one!
Bob Kaplow
> In August's Consumer Reports there is a test of household glues. It
> rates CAs, epoxies, plastic cements, and wood glues. What I found
> interesting was that "Ross All Purpose White Glue" was found stronger
> than several yellow wood glues.
I haven't seenthe article. But over the years I've learned that you have to
take CR with a certain grain of salt. They do provide useful information for
the masses, for those that know nothing about the product. But for someone
with more than traditional consumer needs or tastes, they are misleading to
useless, to flat out wrong more often than not.
Will they tell you if a certain child seat is unsafe. You bet. If a
particular dishwasher has a bad reliability record. Probably.
Take the car buying public. Will CR tell you which is better; a Honda Civic
or a Yugo? Of course. How about a Mercedes vs a BMW? Not so useful any more.
A Porsche 911 vs a Ferrari vs a Lamborgini? Totally useless. A McLaren F1?
ROTFL!
I found the same thing to be true when I got into high end stereo. "All CD
players sound identical". Worthless to pure BS. CR wouldn't know how to test
Krell, ARC, CJ, Wilson, Apogee (the speakers, not the rockets), California
Audio, or even the mid range PS audio stuff I bought 15 years ago.
Face it. Here in RMR, we're not the typical consumer. Maybe there is some
useful information in the CR glue report. But I wouldn't bet my rocket on
it.
Hints: What do they have to say about Crazy Glue (the specific brand, not CA
in general)? Do they test ANY adhesives that are made for the modeling or
professional markets (Hot Stuff, Pacer, Pic, West, System 3, etc.)?
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Ctrl-Alt-Del"
Kaplow Klips: http://members.aol.com/myhprcato/KaplowKlips.html
NIRA: http://www.nira.chicago.il.us NAR: http://www.nar.org
SPAM: spamr...@ChooseYourmail.com u...@ftc.gov postm...@127.0.0.1
Dave Ward
Phil A wrote in message <7nlp51$brd$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>...
>As I stated in a previous post (7-26), I'm new to this. I'm wondering if
>anyone has any ideas about glues. I've check the FAQ and gotten some info
>there as well.
>
>Anyone have any words of caution/praise for use of the following?
>
>mention it's use (as far as I can tell).
You'll probably get a zillion replies telling you not to use this, however
what they should tell you is where the dangers are in using it. Hot glue
melts at a fairly low temp and don't actually have as much peel or sheer?
strength as other glues on many types of materials. Some people use it to
hold things together until their primary glue cures. Some folks use it for
attaching otherwise difficult materials (I've heard of it being used for
attaching *plastic* straws to the body tube for launch lugs, but I've never
had the nerve to try that myself).
One thing to note, there are two different temperature hot melt glues on the
common market (and probably a number of different formulations in specialty
markets), one is a lower temp than the other and I have found that it gets
gooey and comes apart just by being in the sun. Hardware stores usually
carry both or at least the high temp ones, most of the craft stores I've
seen only carry the lower temp stuff.
If you aren't sure, try out a test with the stuff. just don't test it on
your first 'M' motor powered rocket.
-Dave
Mark Simpson
> One of the RMR denizens
> (Mark Simpson) built a huge scratchbuilt that flew on a J350 using nothing but
> Titebond. I prefer to build using 5 and 20 minute epoxies and CA's for most of
> my stuff.
I'm in the process of building a whole fleet of Titebond II HPRs. (I
prefer Titebond II because it is waterproof.) My first was a 4' long
2.5" daimeter carpet tube with plywood fins and a hand-turned balsa
nosecone, wrapped in wood-grained contact paper and called, fittingly
enough "Woody". I've flown it on G's and H's with no problems. Next up
was a 5.5" diameter by 6' long rocket built to fly J's or better. This
one used internal wooden strakes, 1/4 balsa round for fillets and was as
strong as a tank. Finished, with motor, it weighed about 8 pounds. It
flew great on a J350 twice. Unfortunately, the chute failed to
cooperated on flight #2, it Kamakazied in from 2000' and one of the
plywood fins snapped off. This would have been fixable but the BT
crimped just above the fincan. My latest "Wood-glue special" is a 2.25"
diameter by 4' long reincarnation of "The Match", a scaled up strike
anywhere match that met its demise at the Infamous (to me anyway)
NYPOWER99 launch when my son looked at me and said " didn't you take the
chute out of the Match to use on the Phoenix?" just before ignition.
Oops... This time, instead of 2 E25's, this baby is built to use
anything up to and including a 38mm RMS. It's completely wrapped in
wood-grained contact paper, like its predecessors, but this time I got
carried away and covered the fins as well. ;-)
I'm still debating repairing a now-defunct Bruiser EXP bottom end using
wood glue only and flying it on a K550 of K1100 next year.
Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
Tim Farris
say it:
OH GOODY, ANOTHER GLUE THREAD!!!!
THF
Phil A wrote:
>
> As I stated in a previous post (7-26), I'm new to this. I'm wondering if
> anyone has any ideas about glues. I've check the FAQ and gotten some info
> there as well.
>
> Anyone have any words of caution/praise for use of the following?
>
> 1. Hot Glue Gun - seems like a very strong bond - but the faq doesn't
> mention it's use (as far as I can tell).
> 2. Crazy Glue - for FINS?
> 3. Elmer's Glue - too weak?
>
> Also, does anyone out there use "Sanding Sealer" as proposed by the Estes
> directions (as optional) or do you use methods as proposed in the FAQ
> (Elmer's Finish Filler, Modeler's Putty, etc)?
>
> What specifically do you guys use for the "fillets" to bring the fins and
> body together.
>
> Thanks in advance for all of your help! This is an addictive hobby!
>
Jim Z number 2
Does anyone remember the TV ad Elmers used to run back in the 60's, I think?
They took a couple 2 x 10s and glued them together, overlapped by about 10",
and used them as a diving board! Strong stuff when used correctly.
Andy Eng
<cntrl-x>
> Lots of people use crazy glue but purchased in larger quantities
at the
> hobby store. Folks here call it CA here and so do the hobby shops. It
> works great for lots of things especially plastic to wood joints. Many
> use this as a sole attachment for fins to rockets. If the fin pops
off
> on landing just reglue it. There is a Mr Eng here that might chime in
> for some pointers here. CA can also be accelerated to dry in seconds
> with a product called a kicker. Ask for "kicker for CA" at the hobby
> shop. You need a little pump bottle for it as well. It is startling
> how fast it cures the CA, before you know it all your fingers are
stuck
> together. CA doesn't have much shear strength, from what I have seen,
> and it is susceptible to shock loads (it goes Ping! at inopportune
> times) so you have to be careful where you use it. The thin variety
does
> amazing things to paper, you have to try this to believe it.
Bob must be referring to either reinforcing balsa with CA to withstand
mach or rubbing it into paper & wood with your fingers. Actually, I
picked up both pointers through this ng so it is in the public domain...
;-)
I will add that if you're reinforcing balsa, it's better if you do it in
one heavy application else a shell form's and all the subsequent CA
simply drips off. Also, you can get away without sanding it (pretty
tough stuff) smooth if you sorta rub it around on the work piece,
spreading it evenly with your fingers while it's still wet. Finally, you
don't have to always buy new CA tips and caps--Just clean them up with
acetone.
Regards,
Andy
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
bob fortune
Andy Eng wrote:
>
> Bob must be referring to either reinforcing balsa with CA to withstand
> mach or rubbing it into paper & wood with your fingers. Actually, I
> picked up both pointers through this ng so it is in the public domain...
> ;-)
>
> I will add that if you're reinforcing balsa, it's better if you do it in
> one heavy application else a shell form's and all the subsequent CA
> simply drips off. Also, you can get away without sanding it (pretty
> tough stuff) smooth if you sorta rub it around on the work piece,
> spreading it evenly with your fingers while it's still wet. Finally, you
> don't have to always buy new CA tips and caps--Just clean them up with
> acetone.
>
> Regards,
> Andy
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Well,
It sure took you long enough to find that little mr. eng easter egg in
there. I've been waiting for you to add you special touch to the thread.
You know, I have never thought about soaking the tips in acetone, I sure
will start now though. One of the toughest things is to keep the top on
while the bottle is moving around the bench as it's being used. Often my
stuff will sit around with the cap off for days or weeks til I get back
to that particular project. If I had the presence of mind I could
remove the CA tip, drop it in a baby bottle of acetone for the duration
and cap the CA bottle with a stopper. Maybe if the stopper was integral
to the bottle and the CA tip was lots easier to remove.....
Have you ever tried reducing older CA with acetone to "rejuvenate" it?
I just tossed my 3 dead bottles out last week so I don't have anything
to experiment on. It might be interesting to see what happens to it, if
it still functions as it should.
Bob
Andy Eng
<ctrl-x>
> Have you ever tried reducing older CA with acetone to "rejuvenate" it?
> I just tossed my 3 dead bottles out last week so I don't have anything
> to experiment on. It might be interesting to see what happens to it, if
> it still functions as it should.
I've pretty much used every bottle to the last drop so I'll have to pass
on this one. I'd bet some motors that Mark Simpson would know but he may
be on the road to north Texas by now.
We'll see if he finds this egg ;-)
Andy
Bob Kaplow
>> Have you ever tried reducing older CA with acetone to "rejuvenate" it?
>> I just tossed my 3 dead bottles out last week so I don't have anything
>> to experiment on. It might be interesting to see what happens to it, if
>> it still functions as it should.
>
> I've pretty much used every bottle to the last drop so I'll have to pass
> on this one. I'd bet some motors that Mark Simpson would know but he may
> be on the road to north Texas by now.
CA cures via polymerizing. It is unlikely that any solvent like acetone is
going to rejuvinate it.
Adrian Hurt
>Phil A wrote:
>>
>> As I stated in a previous post (7-26), I'm new to this. I'm wondering if
>> anyone has any ideas about glues. I've check the FAQ and gotten some info
>> there as well.
>>
>> Anyone have any words of caution/praise for use of the following?
>>
>> 1. Hot Glue Gun - seems like a very strong bond - but the faq doesn't
>> mention it's use (as far as I can tell).
>
I used to think that until I made the mistake of saying so in front of someone
who was about to use it. (Hello, Bobby! :-) The flight of the rocket in
question convinced me otherwise. Note that this applies to model rockets,
not HPR. (The model was powered by a C6-3 and was not a minimum diameter
type. Other people, using other designs and motors, may have other results.)
>> Also, does anyone out there use "Sanding Sealer" as proposed by the Estes
>> directions (as optional) or do you use methods as proposed in the FAQ
>> (Elmer's Finish Filler, Modeler's Putty, etc)?
Yes, me. I'm going to have to use an alternative, though, because the local
model shop has been out of stock for weeks, and so have I. Elmer's is
probably a US product, I've never seen anything under that name here. I've
tried a thin coat of epoxy on some models, which seemed to work quite well,
so if the "real stuff" doesn't show up soon, the next of my rockets is going
to get that treatment.
>> What specifically do you guys use for the "fillets" to bring the fins and
>> body together.
>Epoxy almost exclusively.
Ditto, with one exception. This was my first attempt at doing my own
through-the-wall fins, and the slots ended up too big. Strips of paper
curved to fit into the joint, then soaked with glue and stuck in, act as
both seals and fillets. This is also one of my models with epoxy-sealed
fins. It's had a couple of very rough landings and survived, so the method
seems to have some merit. :-)
--
"It'll be alright. I've done this before." - M. Garibaldi
-----------------+------------------------------+------------------
Adrian Hurt | E-mail: adr...@cee.hw.ac.uk |
| UKRA: 1026 | Po: MIA 26/8/98
Mark Simpson
>
> bob fortune wrote:
>
> <ctrl-x>
>
> > Have you ever tried reducing older CA with acetone to "rejuvenate" it?
> > I just tossed my 3 dead bottles out last week so I don't have anything
> > to experiment on. It might be interesting to see what happens to it, if
> > it still functions as it should.
>
> I've pretty much used every bottle to the last drop so I'll have to pass
> on this one. I'd bet some motors that Mark Simpson would know but he may
> be on the road to north Texas by now.
>
>
> Andy
I'm not "on the road" to North Texas yet. I'm still trying to pin down
some flight dates. CA cures by absorbing moisture from the air, so my
guess would be that once it dries, it's unsalvageable. The resultant
film may be acetone soluble (that's why you use nail polish remover to
"unstick" your fingers), but it is no longer functional.
BTW, I still like Titebond II better. ;-)
bob fortune
Mark Simpson wrote:
>
> Andy Eng wrote:
> > We'll see if he finds this egg ;-)
> >
> > Andy
>
> I'm not "on the road" to North Texas yet. I'm still trying to pin down
> some flight dates. CA cures by absorbing moisture from the air, so my
> guess would be that once it dries, it's unsalvageable. The resultant
> film may be acetone soluble (that's why you use nail polish remover to
> "unstick" your fingers), but it is no longer functional.
>
> BTW, I still like Titebond II better. ;-)
>
> Mark Simpson
> NAR 71503 Level II
Hey, it looks like Mark found the easter egg!
Mark, as you can tell from the thread we were talking about old CA. I
thought I had tossed all my various dried up bottles in the trash but I
found one almost dead soldier last night. It was a thick variety but it
had gotten to that point where it b-a-r-e-l-y wanted to come out of the
bottle. Like Heinz ketchup but more frustrating, and smellier.
Stickier too.
I took the bottle and added some acetone to it and shook it up real
good. Made a medium to thin consistency CA mixture of it and saturated
some paper. It cured in a couple of minutes similar in appearance and
stiffness to a regular thin CA. I bonded some wood with it, similar
bond (from what I could tell). I kicked another sample and it seemed to
react fine.
So if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....
I guess this is a chemistry quiz : )
Is there a solvent in CA?
Is the action of it thickening the polymerization of the material or the
loss of solvent?
What makes the thin different from the thick if there is no solvent?
(Right about here I can imagine you shaking your head at all the silly questions)
Is there a point where the stuff can be "rejuvenated" or is the stuff I
thinned destined to harden up all of a sudden or otherwise act goofy and
fail at an inopportune time? I have taken gloopier almost unusable
thick CA and added thin CA to it and that worked fine for a while.
Sorry if this is too many questions but I appreciate whatever you can do here.
Thanks Mark,
Bob
Juergen Putzger
>
> <ctrl-x>
>
> > Have you ever tried reducing older CA with acetone to "rejuvenate" it?
I have tried this recently. Acetone dissolves old and thick CA nicely
but the glue will never be the same. Joints made with thinned CA become
brittle and less reliable. It also hardens slower because the acetone
has to evaporate first.
Thickening of the CA means polymerization instead of evaporation of a
solvent. By thinning it with acetone you can´t restore the monomeres
from the polymer.
Best regards
Juergen Putzger
Andy Eng
Long time, no hear. Nice of you to stop by 8^)
juergen...@physik.uni-regensburg.de was elaborating on goops:
<ctrl-x>
> I have tried this recently. Acetone dissolves old and thick CA nicely
> but the glue will never be the same. Joints made with thinned CA
> become brittle and less reliable. It also hardens slower because the
> acetone has to evaporate first. Thickening of the CA means
> polymerization instead of evaporation of a solvent. By thinning it
> with acetone you can=B4t restore the monomeres from the polymer. =
I was doing some imagineering and reckoned that the medium and thick
CA's begin their life as thin CA but undergo a very slight cure at the
factory using a controlled partial polymerization step creating long
molecular chains which increases viscosity yet maintains adequate
amounts of basic thin CA constituents to do the serious bonding. Does
this pass the "sounds sorta right" test or have we been sniffing to much
epoxy? :-)
Mark Simpson
Oh good! I are a Kemist. ;-)
> I guess this is a chemistry quiz : )
>
> Is there a solvent in CA?
Not in thin CA. There is an acid stabilizer in all CA's from what I
understand.
> Is the action of it thickening the polymerization of the material or the
> loss of solvent?
Polymerization catalyzed by reaction with surface moisture (or from the
air) From what I've read, >25% RH is preferred. Evidently, the surface
moisture neutralizes the acid stabilizer and allows the CA to
polymerize. This is why CA's don't work well on acidic surfaces.
> What makes the thin different from the thick if there is no solvent?
There are a few ways to thicken CA. One group of CA's are rubber
toughened to improve peel strength. Other CA's have different acetate
chain lengths which have naturally differing viscosities. Longer chains
= higher viscosity. In general, short chain = higher strength.
> (Right about here I can imagine you shaking your head at all the silly questions)
Not really. I'm not an adhesives chemist, I'm a pretreatment chemist.
I'm learning something too.
> Is there a point where the stuff can be "rejuvenated" or is the stuff I
> thinned destined to harden up all of a sudden or otherwise act goofy and
> fail at an inopportune time?
My guess is that it probably does have some adhesive properties even
after it has already polymerized. After all, many glues owe their
strength to just "drying out" on a surface. Look at wood glues. BTW, CA
is only soluble in acetone AFTER it cures.
> I have taken gloopier almost unusable
> thick CA and added thin CA to it and that worked fine for a while.
From what I've read, the grade of CA is highly dependent on its monomer
purity. By doping your "good" CA with dried, polymerized CA, you
probably weakened it. But we can verify this by testing right? I do
have my little adhesion testing gizmo.
>
> Sorry if this is too many questions but I appreciate whatever you can do here.
>
> Thanks Mark,
>
> Bob
As I stated above, I'm learning as we go along, too. Look at :
http://www.holdtite.com/english/guides/index.htm
I just found out that my company bought PRC DeSota(?), which is a major
adhesive supplier to the aerospace industry. Now all I need to do is
locate someone in the organization that knows "glues" and doesn't mind
answering a bunch of my questions. <g>
Take care,
bob fortune
Mark Simpson wrote:
> Oh good! I are a Kemist. ;-)
Perfekt, I have a couple more kwestions:
>
> Polymerization catalyzed by reaction with surface moisture (or from the
> air) From what I've read, >25% RH is preferred. Evidently, the surface
> moisture neutralizes the acid stabilizer and allows the CA to
> polymerize. This is why CA's don't work well on acidic surfaces.
So breathing (like saying "haaaaaaaaaaaaaa") on a part will cure the CA?
I understand that the kicker will cause the bond to lose about 80% of
it's strength. Will increasing the available water do the same thing?
If I spray a CA bonded joint in the process of curing what can I expect
to happen?
No doubt the acid used as the stabilizer is pretty nasty, can it be used
by itself to "freshen up" a marginal bottle of CA? Is there a readily
available substitute for this acid?
>
> > What makes the thin different from the thick if there is no solvent?
>
> There are a few ways to thicken CA. One group of CA's are rubber
> toughened to improve peel strength. Other CA's have different acetate
> chain lengths which have naturally differing viscosities. Longer chains
> = higher viscosity. In general, short chain = higher strength.
Okay, I understand that most adhesives are a trade off in peel, shear,
tensile, temperature resistant, waterproof or whatever qualities. One
can't have everything in one bottle of goop. Have you figured out which
thickened CA would work best for our general application? (besides
what's cheapest or easiest to find on a cluttered bench)
The above link is excellent. The anerobic stuff is very interesting.
The fact that CA's don't like acidic surfaces is news to me given that
paper uses a lot of acids in the production process!
This is snipped from above:
>
> > (Right about here I can imagine you shaking your head at all the silly questions)
>
> Not really. I'm not an adhesives chemist, I'm a pretreatment chemist.
> I'm learning something too.
Okay, we both know that pretreatment of metal surfaces is critical to
the end product. I don't have access to the more exotic pretreatment
chemicals or techniques but maybe you can give me some basic pointers to
preparing these surfaces for bonding:
Steel, mild
Aluminum (bare)
titanium, unalloyed
amine curing epoxy
Whatever you can tell me I appreciate. Thanks for the info Mark, you
are a wonderful resource!
Bob
Paul Diming
>>Phil A wrote:
>>>
>>> As I stated in a previous post (7-26), I'm new to this. I'm wondering
if
>>> anyone has any ideas about glues. I've check the FAQ and gotten some
info
>>> there as well.
>>>
Phil,
For what its worth, below is a summary of adhesives I wrote about a year ago
to help answer questions such as yours. I hope it helps a little. My
favorite right now is TiteBond II when I'm working with a paper to paper
bond.
Paul.
Fly Baby Fly !
________________
Yellow glue is much stronger and dries faster than white glue. Therefore,
I highly recommend using Yellow glue over white glue for model rockets.
Elmer's Professional Wood Glue is fine. Franklin TiteBond and TiteBond
II seem to be better for me. I'm using Tite Bond II right now. It is
tackier and waterproof. From what I read in the FAQ, SIG also makes a
good Yellow glue. Yellow glue is safe for children to use and is not
toxic. It's downside is that it takes fairly long to dry thoroughly. For
fin and launch lugs, I strongly recommend the double glue joint method.
First thinly coat both surfaces and allow to dry. Then coat both surfaces
again and join. I also sand body tubes with 350-400 grit sandpaper.
These techniques result in stronger joins.
HOWEVER, do not believe that Yellow glue is the best glue for all uses
regarding rocketry. CA (Cyanoacrylate), AKA Super Glue, is excellent for
strengthening body tube ends and making fast repairs. It is also used
sometimes to glue down a paper shroud. Some folks only use CA. Yellow
glue, though, is safer to use than CA if there are children around. CA
produces vapors which are more irritating than toxic. The CA available
from hobby stores is much better than the KMart Super Glue variety. CA is
also available in fast, medium or slow curing versions. Check out your
hobby store, you'll usually find a whole rack dedicated to the stuff!
Epoxies are the strongest. The 5-minute variety cures quickly, but is the
weakest. You can find epoxies in a number of different cure times.
Usually the longer the cure time, the stronger the epoxy. The downside to
epoxies is that usually you must mix two parts together in exactly the
correct proportions (usually 1 to 1). Also, some folks become sensitized
to epoxy and break out when exposed to the stuff. But.... it's the
strongest glue for rocketry. Keep in mind though, model rockets typically
do not require this strength if you stay in the A-D engine range. High
Power Rocketry (HPR) usually requires the use of epoxies.
Contact cement has been around for a long time. It is strong, but is
tough to work with. You have to coat both surfaces, wait for it to cure
(15-20 minutes), then press the surfaces together. They immediately will
bond. So, you need to have perfect aim!
Plastic Cement is used heavily when there are plastic components. Both
tube type and liquid plastic cement are used. However, don't use this
cement if plastic is not involved. It is not as strong as other adhesives
for wood and paper.
There are many other adhesives, but these are the main ones. If you are
new to the hobby, I highly recommend getting a copy of G. Harry Stine's
"Handbook Of Model Rocketry." This is an excellent book available via
mail-order, hobby stores and larger book stores. It covers a large number
of topics for someone starting out. I have read the book twice.
Jeff Burnett
What company is this that bought PRC? Last I checked PRC was still
owned by Courtalds Aerospace. I have all the spec sheets on just about
any PRC ever produced (Im in Aerospace) I was wondering just the other
day if I could find a rocketry use for the 800 or so tubes of this
stuff we toss every year for shelf life. It is a really unique
adhesive, if they could just get rid of the dam smell it gives off
while curing!!
(I think you are referring to DeSoto products)
Jeff Burnett
Mark Simpson
>
> What company is this that bought PRC? Last I checked PRC was still
> owned by Courtalds Aerospace. I have all the spec sheets on just about
> any PRC ever produced (Im in Aerospace) I was wondering just the other
> day if I could find a rocketry use for the 800 or so tubes of this
> stuff we toss every year for shelf life. It is a really unique
> adhesive, if they could just get rid of the dam smell it gives off
> while curing!!
> (I think you are referring to DeSoto products)
> Jeff Burnett
Jeff,
Here's the announcement:
PPG Completes Acquisition of PRC-DeSoto International
PITTSBURGH, July 30 /PRNewswire/ -- PPG Industries (NYSE: PPG)
today completed its previously
announced acquisition of PRC-DeSoto International ofGlendale,
Calif. -- formerly Courtaulds Aerospace -- from Akzo Nobel (Nasdaq:
AKZOY) of the Netherlands for US$512 million.
The global supplier of coatings and sealants for aircraft, as
well as sealants for architectural insulating glass units, has annual
sales of about US$240 million. It has production facilities in the
United States and Europe, as well as 14 application support centers
serving aircraft maintenance and aftermarket customers around the world.
Former PRC-DeSoto President Theodore M. Clark was named
general manager of PPG's 16th strategic
business unit, aerospace coatings and sealants, formed by the
acquisition. He will be based in Glendale. Clark, 46, a 25-year PRC
veteran, was corporate vice president and business manager when
Courtaulds plc acquired the firm in 1989, became president in 1991 and
president-CEO in 1996.
"Acquisition of PRC-DeSoto establishes PPG as a leading
coatings and sealants supplier to the world's airframe manufacturers and
operators," said E. Kears Pollock, PPG executive vice president.
"The respective coatings product lines are complementary, and
numerous synergies for PRC-DeSoto's
product and service capabilities with our existing businesses will
be strategically beneficial to PPG and our customers," he said.
PPG, founded in 1883, is a global supplier of coatings, fiber
glass, glass and chemicals with production operations in 22 countries.
Its 1998 sales exceeded US$7.5 billion. Coatings has been PPG's largest
business segment since 1992.
SOURCE PPG Industries, Inc.
I need to make some new friends in Glendale, CA. ;-)
Mark Simpson
some deleted
> Epoxies are the strongest.
In some instances....... For wood/wood or wood cardboard, yellow glue
wins hands down. If you're gluing G-10 fins to a phenolic tube, I'd
agree.
>The 5-minute variety cures quickly, but is the
> weakest. You can find epoxies in a number of different cure times.
> Usually the longer the cure time, the stronger the epoxy. The downside to
> epoxies is that usually you must mix two parts together in exactly the
> correct proportions (usually 1 to 1). Also, some folks become sensitized
> to epoxy and break out when exposed to the stuff. But.... it's the
> strongest glue for rocketry. Keep in mind though, model rockets typically
> do not require this strength if you stay in the A-D engine range.
>High Power Rocketry (HPR) usually requires the use of epoxies.
Oh really? <bg>
Epoxy is only the "strongest" glue for HPR if you're not bonding wood
products to wood products. It is very easy to build an HP rocket using
nothing but wood glue if you design with that fact in mind.
Jeff Burnett
Well, If PRC was to be sold to anyone, PPG and Ciba would be the two I
would like to see. You guys at PPG make just about every thing now..
Whats left?
(DeSoto makes some awsome paint BTW)
Congrats on the new company!
Jeff
Mark Simpson
>
> Its a monopoly im tellin ya!!
> Well, If PRC was to be sold to anyone, PPG and Ciba would be the two I
> would like to see. You guys at PPG make just about every thing now..
> Whats left?
> (DeSoto makes some awsome paint BTW)
> Congrats on the new company!
> Jeff
Thanks Jeff. Now that we're one of the world's largest fiberglass, paint
and adhesive manufacturer, you'd think that a research manager like me
would be able to con a few samples of goodies from the various
divisions, huh? Hey, it's worth a shot. <bg> All we need to do now is
make our own AP. We have a chemical's division that makes hypochlorite,
so why not?
Mark Simpson
>
> Mark Simpson wrote:
>
> > Oh good! I are a Kemist. ;-)
>
> Perfekt, I have a couple more kwestions:
>
> >
> > Polymerization catalyzed by reaction with surface moisture (or from the
> > air) From what I've read, >25% RH is preferred. Evidently, the surface
> > moisture neutralizes the acid stabilizer and allows the CA to
> > polymerize. This is why CA's don't work well on acidic surfaces.
>
> So breathing (like saying "haaaaaaaaaaaaaa") on a part will cure the CA?
> I understand that the kicker will cause the bond to lose about 80% of
> it's strength. Will increasing the available water do the same thing?
> If I spray a CA bonded joint in the process of curing what can I expect
> to happen?
Remember, the water's purpose is to neutralize the acid stabilizer. My
guess is that if you neutralized the stabilizer too quickly, you'd
reduce the polymer lengths, making a bunch of shorter, less effective
polymeric bonds.
>
> No doubt the acid used as the stabilizer is pretty nasty, can it be used
> by itself to "freshen up" a marginal bottle of CA? Is there a readily
> available substitute for this acid?
I think that a "marginal bottle of CA" is one that has already
polymerized (to some extent). It's impossible to reform the monomer once
it's used up. As for its composition, I haven't been successful in
getting a hold of a CA Kicker MSDS. That would identify the chemical by
CAS number and common name.
>
> >
> > > What makes the thin different from the thick if there is no solvent?
> >
> > There are a few ways to thicken CA. One group of CA's are rubber
> > toughened to improve peel strength. Other CA's have different acetate
> > chain lengths which have naturally differing viscosities. Longer chains
> > = higher viscosity. In general, short chain = higher strength.
>
> Okay, I understand that most adhesives are a trade off in peel, shear,
> tensile, temperature resistant, waterproof or whatever qualities. One
> can't have everything in one bottle of goop. Have you figured out which
> thickened CA would work best for our general application? (besides
> what's cheapest or easiest to find on a cluttered bench)
I'm working on it. I have only used a few CAs in my testing so far. I
found that Loctite's Super Glue sux. The best one that I've used to
date (for bonding an aluminum test dolly to a pained surface) is a cheap
generic Super Glue that I picked up at Big Lots. $0.99 for three 2g
tubes. Go figure.
>
> > > Is there a point where the stuff can be "rejuvenated" or is the stuff I
> > > thinned destined to harden up all of a sudden or otherwise act goofy and
> > > fail at an inopportune time?
> >
> > My guess is that it probably does have some adhesive properties even
> > after it has already polymerized. After all, many glues owe their
> > strength to just "drying out" on a surface. Look at wood glues. BTW, CA
> > is only soluble in acetone AFTER it cures.
> >
> > > I have taken gloopier almost unusable
> > > thick CA and added thin CA to it and that worked fine for a while.
> >
> > From what I've read, the grade of CA is highly dependent on its monomer
> > purity. By doping your "good" CA with dried, polymerized CA, you
> > probably weakened it. But we can verify this by testing right? I do
> > have my little adhesion testing gizmo.
> >
> > >
> > > Sorry if this is too many questions but I appreciate whatever you can do here.
> > >
> > > Thanks Mark,
> > >
> > > Bob
> >
> > As I stated above, I'm learning as we go along, too. Look at :
> > http://www.holdtite.com/english/guides/index.htm
> >
> > I just found out that my company bought PRC DeSota(?), which is a major
> > adhesive supplier to the aerospace industry. Now all I need to do is
> > locate someone in the organization that knows "glues" and doesn't mind
> > answering a bunch of my questions. <g>
> >
> > Take care,
> >
> > Mark Simpson
> > NAR 71503 Level II
>
> The above link is excellent. The anerobic stuff is very interesting.
> The fact that CA's don't like acidic surfaces is news to me given that
> paper uses a lot of acids in the production process!
If you've noticed, it takes longer for CA to cure on acidic paper
stock. You now know why.
>
> This is snipped from above:
>
> >
> > > (Right about here I can imagine you shaking your head at all the silly questions)
> >
> > Not really. I'm not an adhesives chemist, I'm a pretreatment chemist.
> > I'm learning something too.
>
> Okay, we both know that pretreatment of metal surfaces is critical to
> the end product. I don't have access to the more exotic pretreatment
> chemicals or techniques but maybe you can give me some basic pointers to
> preparing these surfaces for bonding:
>
> Steel, mild
> Aluminum (bare)
> titanium, unalloyed
> amine curing epoxy
My area of expertise is with the first two (plus zinc and zinc alloys
used in automobiles).
In the automobile industry, we produce a zinc phosphate crystalline
coating on the "body in white" (bare metal car body). For less severe
applications, you can clean the surface with a good alkaline-based
cleaner and bond to this surface. Aluminum benefits from an acidic
cleaning to remove most of the oxide layer that continually forms on its
surface. The aluminum oxide layer itself, if too thick, will shear
under load via cohesive failure (within the same layer).
I've never had to pretreat Ti before. As for Epoxy, I'd clean off the
amine that weeps to the surface with a good solvent, rough sand the
cured resin to increase the contact area and go for it.
>
> Whatever you can tell me I appreciate. Thanks for the info Mark, you
> are a wonderful resource!
No problem. If you need more specific instructions, e-mail me. I don't
know if the general readership is that interested in the topic.
bob fortune
Mark Simpson wrote:
(RMR glue thread tennis match snipped)
>
> No problem. If you need more specific instructions, e-mail me. I don't
> know if the general readership is that interested in the topic.
>
> Mark Simpson
> NAR 71503 Level II
Thanks for the info Mark.
In my industry we call "white metal blast" what I think you call "body
in white" though I guess you get yours from an alkalai dip? Abrasive
blasting to white metal would eat up a car body right now. : )
The following is going way off rockets but what the heck, Mark is the
one who started talking about alkalis.
An aside about alkalais, specifically caustic soda: One of my pals for
the city of SJ used to work in Waste Water Treatment. No, his name is
not Norton.: ) One of his jobs was responding to nuisance sewer gas
problems. Nasty gasses generally occur where the line forms a siphon or
high spot on it's way to the treatment plant. What they would do was to
pump a couple of thousand gallons of caustic soda into the line upstream
of the problem. This "slug" would completely fill the entire line
starting with a 8" pipe to a 12" pipe to a 24" pipe and so on cleaning
out the deposit of scum and crud that generally formed right at the
water line where all the smelly stuff comes from. He says they would
look in the line after the slug went past and the thing would be
spotlessly clean, like brand new. Amazingly dangerous stuff.
Bob
Mark Simpson
>
> Mark Simpson wrote:
>
> >
> > know if the general readership is that interested in the topic.
> >
> > Mark Simpson
> > NAR 71503 Level II
>
>
> In my industry we call "white metal blast" what I think you call "body
> in white" though I guess you get yours from an alkalai dip? Abrasive
> blasting to white metal would eat up a car body right now. : )
A "body in white" is just the name given to a fully assembled car body
before it is painted or assembled. It is just the metal shell before
anything is done to it (other than attaching the hood, doors, deck lid.)
> The following is going way off rockets but what the heck, Mark is the
> one who started talking about alkalis.
Actually, I mentioned an alkaline cleaner, meaning one that operates at
a pH of >7.0. Steel can be cleaned with acidic or alkaline cleaners, but
acidic cleaners leave the surface highly reactive and it blush rusts
almost immediately. Alkaline cleaners work well, but prevent the surface
from blush rusting immediately. (Eventually, it will also if not
processed further)
>
> An aside about alkalais, specifically caustic soda: One of my pals for
> the city of SJ used to work in Waste Water Treatment. No, his name is
> not Norton.: ) One of his jobs was responding to nuisance sewer gas
> problems. Nasty gasses generally occur where the line forms a siphon or
> high spot on it's way to the treatment plant. What they would do was to
> pump a couple of thousand gallons of caustic soda into the line upstream
> of the problem. This "slug" would completely fill the entire line
> starting with a 8" pipe to a 12" pipe to a 24" pipe and so on cleaning
> out the deposit of scum and crud that generally formed right at the
> water line where all the smelly stuff comes from. He says they would
> look in the line after the slug went past and the thing would be
> spotlessly clean, like brand new. Amazingly dangerous stuff.
What your pal did was the same thing that millions of amateur plumbers
do daily. He hit a clogged pipe with Drano. Drano IS caustic soda,
also known as sodium hydroxide. It cleans drains because it saponifies
(converts fatty esters into soaps) organic matterial, rendering them
soluble in water.
As for it being dangerous, it can be if not handled with respect, but
its not as bad as many other things that we use daily....like
pesticides. (That's why I have a lawn service spray my lawn...I know
better than to do it myself.) <g>
