BRUCE KELLY POSTING tw
StreuB1
members a bad name by my impending post. But, oh well.
Why can't all the whiner's and pisser/complainers, just GET THE FUCK OUT!!
:) I'm sorry, I don't pay dues to put up with all this bullshit by
adults!! I can goto school and get this type of runaround. I joined
Tripoil for 1 reason and 1 reason only. To fly rockets and meet those who
have the same passion that I do. You know. The passion that keeps us up at
launches till 3a.m., building and prepping, and then up at 6a.m. to see
if it's raining or not. I would expect all this hype to be carried on by
the 10-13 year old crowd. Not by adults that are to be teaching us juniors
how to properly conduct ourselves at a launch and such.
A perfect example of my previous sentance happened this weekend. It was at
the Tripoli chicago club launch where Dennis Wacker (ex. prefect) sat on
his butt, building a reload, telling all that would listen about what it's
gonna be like having Jerry Irvine at the fall danville. When someones I357
sat on the pad and chuffed, he yelled the comment, "Looks like an Irvine
motor!!" This is not what Juniors and those new to our hobby need to see.
This type of crap is what turns newbies away. They see that there's
tension between members and they get cold feet and leave.
The same with the Dangerous Dave crap. This is to Bruce and all those who
have a personal beef with Dave. That's what he's got a personal Email
address. For you to PRIVATELY contact him on said matters. Not cloging
this newsgroups with your senseless bandwidth about who's right and who's
wrong. This newsgroup is here for all those interested in rocketry to
exchange info. thats constructive to our hobby or ones project. Not to
promote your personal belief's about someone else. That is why it's a .rec
group. rec stands for RECREATIONAL. Which is what bashing and complaining
certainly is NOT!!
I think Rodney King said it best when he said, "Can't we all just fly
rockets!!?" ;)
Humbley yours,
Brian. :)
TerryW1986
FROM: Terry Willson
SUBJECT: Bruce Kelly's R.M.R. Post
In message <41gnnu$a...@hackberry.zilker.net> Stu Barrett writes:
<Bruce asked me to post this for him. I don't want to get involved in
this soap opera. I'm just the messenger ;-) >
My question to you Stu, is why did you get involved then? A soap
opera, it may be to some. To others, another example of what a vested
financial interest in high power rocketry can result in.
If Kelly wanted a nice clean rocket for display, why didn't he
built it himself? I'm sure he is capable. I would also hope that he is
sufficiently "computer literate" of posting a letter on R.M.R himself. Of
course, I must admit that I may be wrong on both counts.
In any event, I personally found Kelly's letter to be equal in
content to the "trash" he alleges to be receiving. For example, "You
know, the bedroom you used for your composite work just steps from an
infant step-grandchild..." Mr. Kelly, I contend that this is emotional
propaganda of the worst type, although I expect it from you.
Kelly also writes: "It is Dave and others like Dave who continue
to give rocketry a bad name. And just what do you think your posting does
Bruce? I neither know or care of the merits of the arguments in the
litigation. That's for the courts to decide.
I would be more than happy to engage you in additional discussions
on this and other topics in this public forum, which you now apparently
see fit to use for your own purposes.
Terry Willson
An insulted R.M.R. reader
Rick Russell
> This is not what Juniors and those new to our hobby need to see.
> This type of crap is what turns newbies away. They see that there's
> tension between members and they get cold feet and leave.
Here here. I know plenty of people that won't read news, because even
the most normal postings eventually get turned around into petty
sniping.
Rick R.
--
Rick Russell *** rick-r...@tamu.edu ** IRCnick: Cobalt
Stu Barrett
>
> TO: R.M.R. Readers
> FROM: Terry Willson
> SUBJECT: Bruce Kelly's R.M.R. Post
>
> In message <41gnnu$a...@hackberry.zilker.net> Stu Barrett writes:
>
> <Bruce asked me to post this for him. I don't want to get involved in
> this soap opera. I'm just the messenger ;-) >
>
> My question to you Stu, is why did you get involved then? A soap
> opera, it may be to some. To others, another example of what a vested
> financial interest in high power rocketry can result in.
Simple; Bruce asked me to. I do have a little interest since DD owes me
a V2 also.
Your comment about "vested financial interest" is a good example of your
continueing conspiracy therories. As even a moron will know there is
no money to be made in this hobby. To suggest a conspriracy is even more
moronic. Oliver Stone would be proud.
> Terry Willson
> An insulted R.M.R. reader
Well FYI, Terry there were many insulted TRA members at the members meeting
when you decided to "no-show". Your credibility as an advocate of "the members"
was laughed at by the membership.
Chase all of the windmills you want, just don't expect any respect for your
"deeds to daring do".
Stu
dangerous_dave,_rocket@elite.net
> Ok, I might be going over board by saying this, or giving the younger
> members a bad name by my impending post. But, oh well.
>
>
> The same with the Dangerous Dave crap. This is to Bruce and all those who
> have a personal beef with Dave. That's what he's got a personal Email
> address. For you to PRIVATELY contact him on said matters. Not cloging
> this newsgroups with your senseless bandwidth about who's right and who's
> wrong. This newsgroup is here for all those interested in rocketry to
> exchange info. thats constructive to our hobby or ones project. Not to
> promote your personal belief's about someone else. That is why it's a .rec
> group. rec stands for RECREATIONAL. Which is what bashing and complaining
> certainly is NOT!!
>
> I think Rodney King said it best when he said, "Can't we all just fly
> rockets!!?" ;)
>
> Humbley yours,
>
> Brian. :)
>
>>>>
Hey Brian,
Pleased to make your acquaintance! Understand this, I'm not trying to flame or bash you here,
I'm trying to communicate. I realize that some people really don't want to hear the argument,
but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist and will go away if you don't have anything around to
remind you.
Simply stated, I have endured a tremendous amount of abuse during the last year and a half.
My company was stolen from me, my back salary never materialized, my wife was threatened
by Platt, she ended up filing for divorce and took everything else I had. So, I really don't have a
lot of simpathy for you having to endure a few public posts. You have a cursor key on your
keyboard and I suggest that you learn how to operate it. Do you call up your newspaper and
television station everytime they report a robbery or rape and complain to them? Television,
newspaper, radio; they are all entertainment media. Why not complain to them for lessening
your enthusiam. I guarantee that what they carry is a lot worse than a few posts on r.m.r. Just
think of it as a public service and I'm reporting some news. Which it really is. Being public also
has a nasty way of getting the truth out in the open.
A great disservice was done not only to me, but to all of my former customers and there were a
large number of lies that were told for the last year. I believe it's time to get the truth out. Posts
like the one that you made are only going to bring more out.
I've sent a number of e-mail messages out to all parties, and they have not responded. So far,
Bruce Kelley has been posted privately four or five times and I have not received any
response whatsoever. What does that make you think? He doesn't want to get involved or he is
afraid of letting something slip? Hey, why not post publicly, that way you really can't tailor your
story to fit a bunch of different situations. It's a commitment that you have to live up to.
The reply Bruce Kelley posted through Bill Nelson had several discrepancies that I felt inclined
to clear up. I don't believe there was too much about my reply that could be misunderstood.
The interesting thing though was the fact that everyone for the last year has been told that the
V-2 was never finished and that I ran off to California with my girlfriend and all of the molds.
Then all of the sudden, some photos show up showing that the V-2 was finished and things
may not be exactly as you have been told.
Brian there's an old saying that if you make your bed, you have to sleep in it. I would just like
for a few people to sleep in the bed they made. In the meanwhile, just try out those cursor keys
and see if they will help you out. If somebody threatens me, or somebody else that I used to be
partners with, there is a chance I might post something about it.
Take it easy,
Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaavvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Author of: Pollock Rocketry; It's Not For Everyone
******************************************************
* God grant me the serenity to accept the things *
* I cannot change, the courage to change the things *
* I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the *
* people that pissed me off. *
******************************************************
* roc...@elite.net, dd...@elite.net *
* ftp://ftp.elite.net/ftp/pub/users/rocket/ *
* http://www.elite.net/~rocket/ *
******************************************************
dangerous_dave,_rocket@elite.net
Hey Rick,
I know you! Didn't you send me some e-mail like before? I'm not trying to rub it in or anything
else. Just be frank about the situation. Rather than copy the reply to this message, same goes
for you as for Brian. Just try that cursor key out for a while. Something else you might want to
do is visit my web site. Maybe if you learned a little more about things you wouldn't jump so
fast. I have been putting some neat stuff on my page. Some of it is still under construction but I
do have some nice pix of the 'Roswell' aliens and links to sites that cover the whole thing in
great detail. I know you like to fly the small stuff so I won't twist your arm to read any of the
composite information. Hey, most of the models I've built were the Este's class (don't repeat
this to anybody, they might get the wrong idea about me).
I used to get tired busting fins off and wrinkling the airframes all of the time. I started out
laminating everything with carbon and glass while trying to keep the weight down. It was a real
challenge but I could build one that you could pull out of the dirt, dust it off, stick another motor
in it and fly. That's how I got the Dangerous Dave handle with a carbon rocket in the NAR group
I was in in Atlanta. This little carbon rocket I built had a slight recovery problem and came in
ballistic. When I took it back to the pad for another round, I was announced over the speaker as
Dangerous Dave. It just stuck. I'll save the story about the Mad Dog for later, but that was
another handle and some of my rockets kind of picked up the name.
Well, I won't bore you anymore with old stories.
JJirvine
he has already received threats from two people they are coming to
Danville to "punch me out". Given the post Brian Streufert posted, Dennis
himself is one of 'em. Why not? He still owes me 60 bucks for a mega-Roc
he never paid for.
This trade is full of deceitful people who hide behind the insessant
delays of litigation to maintain apprerances (Kosdon for example). What
this industry needs is a few companies to enter the market and simply
produce product without someone else stealing it and if they do, not have
the trade association condone it because they happen not to like the
person stolen from.
Jerry
When you screw someone, both parties loose in the long run.
Last I checked stealing explosives was a felony.
Dangerous Dave
--snip--
> The reply Bruce Kelley posted through Bill Nelson had several discrepancies that I felt inclined
--snip--
Sorry Bill, I meant to say Stu Barrett.
Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaavvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Author of: Pollock Rocketry; It's Not For Everyone
******************************************************
* God grant me the serenity to accept the things *
* I cannot change, the courage to change the things *
* I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the *
* people that pissed me off. *
* *
Rick Russell
<Dangerous Dave, roc...@elite.net> wrote:
> I know you! Didn't you send me some e-mail like before? I'm not
And I'm not trying to censor you, or anything. It's just that I
appreciated the plea for sanity expressed earlier, and wanted to show
my (public) support for it.
Actually, I have checked out your page, and it's pretty cool. IMO, if
you have political points to make, that's the right place for them. It
doesn't use bandwidth (network and mental) for people who don't want
to talk politics.
In reference to the composites data, I have a lot of basic
questions. In your documents, you talk alot about different kinds of
fibers, cross-graining the fibers, etc to minimize shrinkage and
achieve various goals.
But, I'm a total newbie. So, for me all this advice doesn't mean a
lot, because I don't even know how to get started. I don't know what
kind of resin to use (is regular Bob Smith type epoxy OK? Do you need
special fiberglassing resin?), I don't know how to physically apply
the fiberglass (Just cut it, brush with epoxy, and stick it on? How do
you keep it in place? How do you keep it flat? etc.) .
So, speaking for myself, I'd find some more basic data very useful. I
have made some inroads into composite construction, actually --
paper-resin composite body tubes. But I've just used regular epoxy and
white paper.
Paul & Victoria Heisner
<41r541$1...@hackberry.zilker.net>, Stu Barrett <s...@zilker.net> would
say...
>> My question to you Stu, is why did you get involved then? A soap
>> opera, it may be to some. To others, another example of what a vested
>> financial interest in high power rocketry can result in.
>Simple; Bruce asked me to. I do have a little interest since DD owes me
>a V2 also.
Other than character assassination, what was the purpose of Bruce's
post??? Also, why didn't he post it himself???? I assume CI$ gives
access to Usenet.......
[sniping at Terry Wilson snipped]
>Well FYI, Terry there were many insulted TRA members at the members meeting
>when you decided to "no-show". Your credibility as an advocate of "the members"
>was laughed at by the membership.
>Chase all of the windmills you want, just don't expect any respect for your
>"deeds to daring do".
You know, a couple of weeks ago, I saw my first HPR launch, and became
really interested in that aspect of the hobby.....then I remembered
the sorry state TRA is in and swore off HPR. I know NAR also handles
HPR, but if this showing of personal attacks by leaders of TRA,
inaction on the part of the S&T, and vested financial interests of the
BOD is any indication of what HPR has to offer...then I'll stay with
Estes, thank you very much......
Vicki
Robert A. Littlefield
<Dangerous Dave, roc...@elite.net> wrote:
>
>Simply stated, I have endured a tremendous amount of abuse during the last year and a half.
>My company was stolen from me, my back salary never materialized, my wife was threatened
>by Platt, she ended up filing for divorce and took everything else I had.
(Cut for bandwidth)
Alright Dave, let's see. You and I have known eack other for quite a few
years now. I knew you long before MRED and I have also known Mike for
quite a while, too. You have both been over my house and I feel I'm
qualified as a good judge and a mutual friend. So, let's skip the
abuse thing for now, and get to "my company was stolen from me". Your
company was never stolen, you abandoned it. You took in cash for 25 orders
at about $325 each, somewhere around $7000. What did you do with it? Mike
didn't get any of it. Sure, you did make a mold for the fin canister.
There are two problems with it as I understand, one the launch lug dosn't
line up right and second, when you were making the mold you forgot a
layer of glass somewhere, so if anyone were to try and use the mold it
would tear itself apart. (I guess there is some foam in there that
would come off stuck to the fin cannister). As far as back salary,
personally I don't recall you doing any actuall work. If I don't do any
work, I don't get paid, so why should you? Mike allowed you to live in
his house. You make it sound like you were forced to live there. The house
was under reconstruction, I think Mike was pretty damn nice to let you
stay there for free. But he never forced you to stay there did he?
I remember you, me, Mike, Ross Dunton, Paul Robinson and some of the
CMASS guys at a BB-Q we had over my house after a launch. My wife had
to leave to go find your girlfriend Terry because she got lost. Ross
was flabbergasted. "I thought he was married.." You met Terry on
compuserve. You were staying up all night on Compuserve using one of
Doug Pratt's accounts at Doug's expense. You wern't doing any work, you
were too busy on compuserve all your waking hours. After a few months,
your long distance calls to Compuserve stopped, and were
replaced by long distance calls to Terry. After about a month, the
calls to CIS resumed and then there were a bunch of calls to Merced, CA. So
you found another gal and left for the west coast. You made all these
calls on Mike's phone, and left him with a huge phone bill, something
like $600. I heard a figure about how much you ran up Doug Pratt's
CIS fees, and it was a >$500 number, too. So, when your wife found out
about the other women and filed for divorce, you blame Mike? Mike was
just trying to find out why you left and who was in Merced. Your wife
figured the rest out for herself.
Long before you left Georga you had said you were sensitized to the
chemicals from the epoxies. Why did you take the job with MRED? You
told me about the MRED merger about 9 months before it happened. You
knew it was going to be a hi risk/hi reward type of job from the get
go. If everything had worked out and everyone had done what the were
suposed to do, MRED would (probably) be a major suplier today. But, you
really did hurt them, and they may never recover fully at this point.
So, the way I see it is you took all the money while you were in
Georgia and used it to pay for your expenses and CIS bills. You went to
MRED hoping they would bail you out of the mess that you got yourself
into and, instead of helping them out, you screwed them along with the
rest of us investors and are now trying to build up a big smoke screen
around the fact that it was you that took our money. The fact remains
that it was you that caused these problems, not Mred or anyone else.
And the V-2 molds are useless.
Please understand these aren't flames, these are the facts behind this
mess. Business aside, you are a pretty ok guy. You gave me alot of
composite knowlege and even some free rockets (Including my first
supersonic) flight. For this I thank you. I got off easy, but you did
leave a lot of burned bridges and scorched earth behind. So, I really don't
have a lot to flame you for except the money. It was Christmas, cold
outside, and you had to make the morgage payment so your wife, daughter,
and grandaughter could keep a roof over their heads. I'll just chalk it
up to charity. I would prefer to remain friends with both you and Mike if
thats ok, but if you are going to tell the story, tell the whole story.
If you can't build rockets anymore, how about building V-2 Bugzappers?
Bawba
--
Bob Littlefield | The Above Stupid Opinions are all My own..
bo...@shore.net | "Wherever you go, there you are" - Prof Irwin Correy
Edmund C. Hack
Paul & Victoria Heisner <vhei...@ainet.com> wrote:
>
>You know, a couple of weeks ago, I saw my first HPR launch, and became
>really interested in that aspect of the hobby.....then I remembered
>the sorry state TRA is in and swore off HPR.
Well, there are tow ways to look at it:
- small ponds attract people that want to be big frogs. Ignore the frogs
and fly rockets.
- ignore TRA
>I know NAR also handles HPR,
.. and quite well. Sure, NAR doesn't have a program for "really big
stuff" (L and up), but how many of us do that anyway?
>but if this showing of personal attacks by leaders of TRA,
Ribbit. Ribbit.
>inaction on the part of the S&T,
I think you mean Tripoli Motor Testing (TMT) S&T is the NAR Standards and
Testing group which seems to do a fine job of testing up to G motors and
is about to start testing H and up. Note that John Cato was universally
praised for the quick work he did in working off the motor test backlog
whne he ran TMT. I don't know all the reasons for TRA BOD removing him
from running TMT and don't want to rehash it here, but it seemed to have
nothing to do with the quality and responsiveness of the testing process.
>and vested financial interests of the
>BOD is any indication of what HPR has to offer...then I'll stay with
>Estes, thank you very much......
>
Consider the NAR as a route into what I would call "practical" HPR - the H
to J reloads from Aerotech. No BATF permits required. Simple shipping of
the reloads. High quality products. Combine it with a subscription to HPR
magazine and get the best of both worlds.
IMHO, the NAR has better politics and competition, TRA has a better magazine.
"Edmund Hack is NAR # 12256 and TRA #2004. No vested interest in rocket
products except as a consumer."
--
Edmund Hack \ "The great prince issues commands,
ech...@crl.com \ Founds states, vests families with fiefs.
Houston, TX \ Inferior people should not be employed."-regnaD kciN
Paul & Victoria Heisner
>Well, there are tow ways to look at it:
> - small ponds attract people that want to be big frogs. Ignore the frogs
>and fly rockets.
> - ignore TRA
You're right, and the people I met were fantastic. However, I'm
afraid that such politicking in TRA might adversly impact upon the
hobby through the BATF -- or simply killing the hobby through
oustering everybody..... But I do know that I'm going to ignore the
TRA.
I just let all of the complaints about TRA slide -- no organization is
perfect and can please all of its members. However, Bruce Kelly's
post turned my guts. If nobody had ever mentioned anything about TRA
here, Kelly's post would have turned me off all on its own....seeing
as how he is the president of TRA, and therefore is supposed to be
more professional and hold himself to a better decorum.... But then,
I'm not a member of TRA, so I'm free to say that, I guess......it's so
sad.....
>I think you mean Tripoli Motor Testing (TMT) S&T is the NAR Standards and
>Testing group
You're right. I was trying to think of the proper title (rather than
calling them "the guys who test the engines), and the announcement
about John Cato being appointed to the S&T lept to mind. My apologies
to the NAR....
>IMHO, the NAR has better politics and competition, TRA has a better magazine.
I'm very much impressed with the NAR and its presence on the net. I
was especially impressed with the (SNP!! ;->) response to Bob Kaplow
regarding the Pink Book problems. Rather than sniping at Bob or
threatening to oust him from NAR for voicing his complaints, they
dealt with it head on.
Has anybody started the beginnings of forming another group as a
sister to NAR instead of Tripoli???? From what I understand (and I
might be completely wrong about this), but when Tripoli ousted those
prefects -- and others -- those people became no longer able to fly
over H. That would be hard to take, so I can imagine that some other
organization capable of certifying over H for these people -- until
NAR is done ramping up at least....
>Houston, TX \ Inferior people should not be employed."-regnaD kciN
Uh, who is Nick Danger????
Vicki
JJirvine
HPR organization.
Jerry
I have actual magazine publishing experience too.
Edmund C. Hack
>Consider the NAR as a route into what I would call "practical" HPR - the H
>to J reloads from Aerotech. No BATF permits required. Simple shipping of
>the reloads. High quality products.
It has been brought to my attention that I am in error in stating that J
reloads are BATF exempt and easily shippable. In fact, it is only 29mm
and 38mm H and I HPR reloads that are shippable. Some 38mm reloads may
not be currently shippable, but I think Aerotech has announced a plan to
resize the 38mm reloads to all be shippable at the cost of some total
impulse. Thanks to Jim McLaughlin for pointing out my error in email.
--
Edmund Hack \ "The great prince issues commands,
ech...@crl.com \ Founds states, vests families with fiefs.
JJirvine
with thicker liners will make them a bit more regressive but with the same
thickness liner the same total impulse can be had still. A thicker liner
will reduce total impulse. It is a strategy needed for Blackjack since
they use "high density metallics".
Jerry
Paul & Victoria Heisner
say...
>Careful Bob, if Vickie reads this she may pledge to stop flying
>ALL rockets ;-)
Haha, very funny Stu. Only I'm not laughing.
>Stu (never did understand her logic???)
There are many reasons behind my logic -- ranging from government
regulation to a certifying body self-destructing to a shrinking market
(how many participants can the BOD expel before it has an overall
negative impact). But the simplest one:
In his post, Kelly says something to the effect of DD giving HPR a bad
image. A bankrupt businessman -- even a flaky businessman or a con --
negatively impacts the hobby INTERNALLY. The only people who know
about it are participants in that hobby. I honestly don't think DD's
former landlady is going to stop renting to rocketeers because he
bounced a rent check to her. However, if he tries to start a new
business, he is going to have a hard time finding customers among the
rocketeers who remember the problems he's going through now. But
nobody is going to say "I'm not going to buy a rocket from Aerotech
because I got burned by Dangerous Dave."
Now, a national organization represents the entire membership. What
people feel towards the organization usually gets transferred to the
members of that organization. For example, people who consider the
NRA to be irresponsible often times tend to consider all gun owners to
be irresponsible. And clubs chartered by the NAR (have to make sure
to keep my n's, r's, and a's straight there!) tend to have an easier
time finding sponsers and flying fields because of the reputation of
NAR as well as what the NAR does (i.e. insurance for the field owner,
safety codes, etc.). So, therefore, it is more incumbant upon the
national organization to be mature and responsible than it is for any
vendor within the field to be so. Because of that, a president and
BOD threatening its members with ouster or litigation, ousting members
for political reasons (and thereby cutting them out of their hobby),
blackballing vendors from advertising for political reasons (and
thereby cutting off their means of sustanence), and making personal
attacks on ex-vendors in a public forum reflects MUCH more poorly on
HPR than ANYTHING DD did.
In short, the public actions of the leadership of TRA are so assinine
that I don't even want to be associated with it. And if it means that
I don't get to fly above what NAR certifies in order to avoid that
association, then so be it. I wouldn't have any fun anyway -- having
to hold my tongue and watch my back in what is supposed to be a
hobby.....
Maybe now you understand????
Vicki
PS
I honestly don't mind watching "pi**ing matches" as long as the
president, officers, and members of the BOD aren't involved.....
kapl...@hccompare.com
> Has anybody started the beginnings of forming another group as a
> sister to NAR instead of Tripoli???? From what I understand (and I
> might be completely wrong about this), but when Tripoli ousted those
> prefects -- and others -- those people became no longer able to fly
> over H. That would be hard to take, so I can imagine that some other
> organization capable of certifying over H for these people -- until
> NAR is done ramping up at least....
We don't need a third or fourth sport rocket organization (Sorry, Terry,
Dennis). Hell, we don't even need a second, and if not for some (in
hindsight) bad management decisions on the part of the NAR Board in the
early 80's, there would be no TRA today. At their current rate of progress,
the current TRA board may rectify the NARs decade old mistake :-)
Also, to date, I'm not aware of the TRA kicking any of us "whiners" out...
YET. I'm certainly not going to kiss up to the TRA BoD to prevent this from
happening to me thou. However, they can do what they like, and it won't stop
any of us from flyng HPR. I have an NAR card that currently allows me to fly
H-K thru their program. Yes, when they re-do their certification process,
I'll be busted back to H-I just like with TRA, but I currently have neither
the hardware, models, dollars, nor BATF permits to go higher, and if|when
that changes, I can easilly J-K certify again thru either organization.
The only issue at the moment for HPR fliers fed up with TRA and wishing to
move to the NAR is L and above motors. IMHO, this is a very small percentage
of the hobby, but I think the NAR needs to ramp up their certification
procedure to the limits of NFPA 1127 for those members interested. Part of
the problem in doing this is their current lack of experience in very high
power rocketry. I'm sure Mr. Bundick would welcome input from those who DO
fly L and above rockets regularly.
Bob Kaplow INTERNET: kapl...@hccompare.com
USPO: HealthCare COMPARE Corp, 5ISD, 3200 Highland Av. Downers Grove, IL 60515
TPC: (708) 241-7919 x5327 ICBM: 41°49'48" North 88°0'51" West
Apollo 13? Hell, I haven't even seen 1 thru 12 yet!
Disclaimer: If this message is caught or killed, the secretary will disavow
any knowledge of my actions. These bits will self destruct in 5 seconds....
Dangerous Dave
> In article <41tutj$i...@berry.elite.net>,
> <Dangerous Dave, roc...@elite.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >Simply stated, I have endured a tremendous amount of abuse during the last year and a half.
> >My company was stolen from me, my back salary never materialized, my wife was threatened
> >by Platt, she ended up filing for divorce and took everything else I had.
>
> (Cut for bandwidth)
>
> mess. Business aside, you are a pretty ok guy. You gave me alot of
>
> Bob Littlefield | The Above Stupid Opinions are all My own..
> bo...@shore.net | "Wherever you go, there you are" - Prof Irwin Correy
>
>
>>>>
Well Bob, you still don't seem to have the facts. In fact your message has
the strong scent of being written by Platt and posted by you like the
message from Bruce Kelley. There are a large number of fallacies you are
stating as fact and I intend to respond to each one because I don't mind
getting things out in the open. In fact, that is the main reason I have taken
this discussion public (besides the fact that nobody responds to private
e-mail). This is for your information, Platts, Pratts and Kelleys and everyone
else that cares to read this.
More later on this...
Rick Russell
<Dangerous Dave roc...@elite.net> wrote:
> Just one thing on the resin that you may find helpful: epoxy that is used
> as an adhesive has a lot of fillers in it that control the viscocity and the
...
Actually, I've been using Bob Smith 120 minute finishing epoxy for my
paper tubes, which is probably a good choice given the various issues
you bring up.
> Use a stiff china bristle paint brush to apply the resin. Wet the surface you
> are laminating with resin, drape the fabric over it, then use your wetted
> brush to stiple the resin into the fibers. Drape another layer and repeat.
Should the fabric be stuck on or tacked on in some way first? Or would
a tacking adhesive (say, 3M 77) prevent the resin from penetrating
properly? Given the long cure time of finishing epoxy, I suspect the
fabric might just fall off before it hardens.
Do you need to wait for the first layer to fully or partially harden
before you put on a second layer?
Thanks for all the great info!
Dangerous Dave
> In article <41u05c$i...@berry.elite.net>,
> <Dangerous Dave, roc...@elite.net> wrote:
> > I know you! Didn't you send me some e-mail like before? I'm not
> ...
>
> And I'm not trying to censor you, or anything. It's just that I
> appreciated the plea for sanity expressed earlier, and wanted to show
> my (public) support for it.
Sorry!!! I do feel that some of this does need to be made public that way
the story doesn't change so easily and it doesn't get swept under the rug.
> Actually, I have checked out your page, and it's pretty cool. IMO, if
> you have political points to make, that's the right place for them. It
> doesn't use bandwidth (network and mental) for people who don't want
> to talk politics.
Thanks! I really enjoy working with the pages. Did a lot of rearranging so
they can be fun and informative. Did you check out the UFO stuff? I still
don't know what to make of it all, but it is kind of interesting. There seems
to be some major groups on the Internet that have a lot info. I've put links
to them on the page.
> In reference to the composites data, I have a lot of basic
> questions. In your documents, you talk alot about different kinds of
> fibers, cross-graining the fibers, etc to minimize shrinkage and
> achieve various goals.
>
> But, I'm a total newbie. So, for me all this advice doesn't mean a
> lot, because I don't even know how to get started. I don't know what
> kind of resin to use (is regular Bob Smith type epoxy OK? Do you need
> special fiberglassing resin?), I don't know how to physically apply
> the fiberglass (Just cut it, brush with epoxy, and stick it on? How do
> you keep it in place? How do you keep it flat? etc.) .
>
> So, speaking for myself, I'd find some more basic data very useful. I
> have made some inroads into composite construction, actually --
> paper-resin composite body tubes. But I've just used regular epoxy and
> white paper.
Well, I'm taking notes on the points your bringing up. It's hard for me to
be objective since I take all the real basics for granted. I believe I need to
write an outline and post it on r.m.r and ask for feedback. That way, I can
address all the minor points and try and simplify them.
Just one thing on the resin that you may find helpful: epoxy that is used
as an adhesive has a lot of fillers in it that control the viscocity and the
rate of cure. These fillers also reduce the strength of the resin. Laminating
resins are generally much lower in viscocity and much slower in their cure
rate. The West Systems resins are genuine laminating resins and can
be used as adhesives by adding cabosil (silicon dioxide) or glass micros.
When using epoxy to reinforce paper tubing, surface penetration is very
important. Which means; your resin needs to be thin and unfilled. You can
also thin it further using acetone. The acetone will also slow the cure
allowing more resin to penetrate the paper fibers, which is where the
strength lies.
Epoxy resing and kraft paper are a very strong and powerful combination.
Early composite aircraft used a kraft paper fiberglass sandwich to form the
wings and fuselage. I've used kraft paper as a core material for building
fins.
As far as laying the fabric, that all depends on the technique you develop.
It's like tying shoes laces, everybody does it different. You want to cut your
fabric oversize, wet it with resin and then trim it to fit.
Use a stiff china bristle paint brush to apply the resin. Wet the surface you
are laminating with resin, drape the fabric over it, then use your wetted
brush to stiple the resin into the fibers. Drape another layer and repeat.
Every subsequent layer should be layed at a 45 degree angle. Sometimes
this will be undesireable because of directional strength and weight
considerations, i.e.: fin roots.
Post me back some more on how I can better communicate the ideas and
techniques.
Take it easy,
Dangerous Dave
--snip--
>
> Ribbit. Ribbit.
>
> --
> Edmund Hack \ "The great prince issues commands,
> ech...@crl.com \ Founds states, vests families with fiefs.
> Houston, TX \ Inferior people should not be employed."-regnaD kciN
>
>>>>
Ribbit. Ribbit. You can say that again! Ribbit. Ribbit.
120701000-R.G.KOEHLER(MT6019)1025MT
Paul & Victoria Heisner <vhei...@ainet.com> wrote:
Here! here! Vicki, an excellent point-of-view.
Here in NJ, the only group with a field large enough to fly "G" and
above belongs to Garden State Tripoli, which is why I joined them. I had
wanted to stick just with the NAR but we cannot certify in NJ with them,
and HPR is vastly superior the the recent issues of Sprocketry. Thus I
hooked up with Garden State Tripoli, a terrific group who seem to get along
very well and don't partake in any of the recent nonsense seen here on RMR
within the ranks of both sanctioning organizations.
The local NAR group (Garden State Spacemodeling Society) now make up
a fair chunk of Garden State Tripoli so maybe we can try a dual sanction,
who knows if it's possible, but it's a thought anyway.
Rich Koehler
NAR 62059
TRA 3730
JJirvine
in addressing power levels above what they currently do. They will need
to eventually have to in some way if nothing else, then by default. I
still feel a separate organization (even if closely associated with NAR)
is needed for liability and image purposes. I feel VERY strongly about
this and my primary reason is the protection of MODEL ROCKETRY no matter
what happens within HPR.
Jerry
"I would even rejoin for that."
NAR 24333 (and proud of it)
Stu Barrett
>
> Telling Dave's tale from a different perpsective.
>
> (Cut for bandwidth)
Careful Bob, if Vickie reads this she may pledge to stop flying
ALL rockets ;-)
Stu (never did understand her logic???)
John Dunbar
>Over 400 years ago, Nostradamus predicted that in article
><425lah$q...@hackberry.zilker.net>, Stu Barrett <s...@zilker.net> would
>say...
>
>>ALL rockets ;-)
>
>
>
>regulation to a certifying body self-destructing to a shrinking market
>(how many participants can the BOD expel before it has an overall
>negative impact). But the simplest one:
>
>In his post, Kelly says something to the effect of DD giving HPR a bad
>image. A bankrupt businessman -- even a flaky businessman or a con --
>negatively impacts the hobby INTERNALLY. The only people who know
>about it are participants in that hobby. I honestly don't think DD's
>former landlady is going to stop renting to rocketeers because he
>bounced a rent check to her. However, if he tries to start a new
>business, he is going to have a hard time finding customers among the
>rocketeers who remember the problems he's going through now. But
>nobody is going to say "I'm not going to buy a rocket from Aerotech
>because I got burned by Dangerous Dave."
He can start again. He must first, clear up all debts. This builds back
credibility in the eyes of the rocket community. Next, he will have to
make it a point to advance ship orders, and then get payment. Everyone
makes mistakes. I believe the money managment was the last thing Dave thought
about. I would say, pay people back, and bill orders and as long as
his product is good, people will pay :)
>
>Now, a national organization represents the entire membership. What
>people feel towards the organization usually gets transferred to the
>members of that organization. For example, people who consider the
>NRA to be irresponsible often times tend to consider all gun owners to
>be irresponsible. And clubs chartered by the NAR (have to make sure
>to keep my n's, r's, and a's straight there!) tend to have an easier
>time finding sponsers and flying fields because of the reputation of
>NAR as well as what the NAR does (i.e. insurance for the field owner,
>safety codes, etc.). So, therefore, it is more incumbant upon the
>national organization to be mature and responsible than it is for any
>vendor within the field to be so. Because of that, a president and
>BOD threatening its members with ouster or litigation, ousting members
>for political reasons (and thereby cutting them out of their hobby),
>blackballing vendors from advertising for political reasons (and
>thereby cutting off their means of sustanence), and making personal
>attacks on ex-vendors in a public forum reflects MUCH more poorly on
>HPR than ANYTHING DD did.
>
Yep, I second and third this point ... well said. Hell, I can't even think
of anything to add.
>In short, the public actions of the leadership of TRA are so assinine
>that I don't even want to be associated with it. And if it means that
>I don't get to fly above what NAR certifies in order to avoid that
>association, then so be it. I wouldn't have any fun anyway -- having
>to hold my tongue and watch my back in what is supposed to be a
>hobby.....
>
>Maybe now you understand????
>
>Vicki
>
>PS
>
>I honestly don't mind watching "pi**ing matches" as long as the
>president, officers, and members of the BOD aren't involved.....
>
We need to monitor the BOD better! I should have stuck it out and
stayed for the entire TRA BOD meeting at LDRS. That way I could have
taken complete notes and informed my fellow TRA members of votes
and decisions made by the board.
I believe that the TRA BOD really dosen't have a clear mandated direction
togo in. We need to place real flyers on the board, and not those who see
the board as an ego boost, or marketing step.
What direction would I like to see the board move? Well here are some
of my ideas:
1) Greater co-operation with its members and less with the manufactures.
The members, through buying power, will keep the manufactures inline.
2) Lowering the age of flyers from 18 - 14 years of age. There are 21+
adult TRA members who don't have a clue! 14 is a great age to allow
a young person to experience the thrill of high power.
3) We need to start having ORGANIZED altitude competition events. Keep
national records for altitude for payload, staging, and developments
which increase the technology of our hobby. We could nave national
awards.
4) Stop trading Magazine add fees for products. Bartering is cool, but in
this case I can't barter the board by trading a motor for HPR Mag. I have to
pay my $5 at the bookstore, so the board needs to collect fees from
manufactures in order to guarentee the quality of the mag. Note: Dangerous
Dave was bartering mag add fees on the promises of a V-2 kit. I would
have liked to see $$$ collected. I'm looking at the adds right now , and I'm
wondering how many manufactures actually sent in $$$ payments, or did they just
send certain people stuff that does nothing to augment the TRA treasury?
5) Re-instate Jerry Irvine. Now I understand that this is a very unpopular
view with most of you, but please let me explain:
I know Jerry has had bad financial dealings with alot of us. Fine. That is
between Jerry and the INVOLVED parties. As long as Jerry obeys the bylaws
and pays his dues, he should be allowed to fly in TRA. Now lets think, if I
fall into bad feelings with the board, should they be allowed to just vote
me out of TRA ... or you. Please think about this one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are more things but I have a customer to attend to, so I'll continue the
list a little later :)
--
John Dunbar
Stu Barrett
>
> I honestly don't mind watching "pi**ing matches" as long as the
> president, officers, and members of the BOD aren't involved.....
>
Well, I too think that Bruce sometimes should try and take the moral
high ground and agree that his mud fest with DD may tend to tarnish
him. But DD did cast aspersions on him and to expect Bruce
to turn the other cheek JUST because his is a BOD member is a little
polyannish.
I personally get sick and tired of candy ass
politcians that are too affraid of offending some of their electorat
by calling a spade a @#$% spade. We get what we deserve when we
allow folks to get away with slander just because their target is
a person who is expected to "suck it up" in order to appear dignified.
I have much more respect for someone if they stand up and let everyone
know that their accusor is a lying low life scum sucking @#$%^.
That being said, this is not in any way takind sides in this pissing
contest. I, unlike Mr. Littlefield, have no first hand knowledge of
this soap opera. I just think that to expect a person to allow
their character to be attacted w/o retribution is naive.
Stu (You should have laughed.... really)
dangerous_dave,_rocket@elite.net
> vhei...@ainet.com (Paul & Victoria Heisner) wrote:
>
> Well, I too think that Bruce sometimes should try and take the moral
> high ground and agree that his mud fest with DD may tend to tarnish
> him. But DD did cast aspersions on him and to expect Bruce
> to turn the other cheek JUST because his is a BOD member is a little
> polyannish.
I do respect people that will discuss things openly. Please repost the
original message privately if you like.
> I personally get sick and tired of candy ass
> politcians that are too affraid of offending some of their electorat
> by calling a spade a @#$% spade. We get what we deserve when we
> allow folks to get away with slander just because their target is
> a person who is expected to "suck it up" in order to appear dignified.
Slander? Did you know that in order for a statement to legally
be considered slander it has to be a lie? Every word of every message
that I have posted on this newsgroup is backed up with hard
documentation and photographic records. If you care to browse my web
page you can find some very fine examples. There are also some very
fine witnesses that will be happy to put you in touch with.
> I have much more respect for someone if they stand up and let everyone
> know that their accusor is a lying low life scum sucking @#$%^.
I concure wholeheartedly!!! That is the very reason I am posting on this
newsgroup.
> That being said, this is not in any way takind sides in this pissing
> contest. I, unlike Mr. Littlefield, have no first hand knowledge of
> this soap opera. I just think that to expect a person to allow
> their character to be attacted w/o retribution is naive.
I concure wholeheartedly again and I am sick and tired of being made
the scapegoat.
I posted you a very long message privately. Would like to reply to me
privately or would you prefer to carry the discussion to this newsgroup?
BTW> I finally did get a private reply from Bruce, a one liner saying he
didn't want to be involved.
Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaavvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Author of: Pollock Rocketry; It's Not For Everyone
******************************************************
* God grant me the serenity to accept the things *
* I cannot change, the courage to change the things *
* I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the *
* people that pissed me off. *
******************************************************
gd-smith@uiuc.edu@uiuc.edu
>I had
>wanted to stick just with the NAR but we cannot certify in NJ with them,
Why not? All it takes is two senior NAR members to witness the flight.
You seem to have a few of those if the Tripoli prefecture membership
overlaps with the NAR club as you say. I've even seen people get NAR
certification upgrades at the Danville Tripoli launch -- hardly a
NAR-friendly environment, to judge from the comments of the organizer.
> The local NAR group (Garden State Spacemodeling Society) now make up
>a fair chunk of Garden State Tripoli so maybe we can try a dual sanction,
>who knows if it's possible, but it's a thought anyway.
There are several clubs with dual affiliation, including our own Central
Illinois Aerospace. We offer both Tripoli and NAR certification flights
at the same launches (depending only on whether our Tripoli prefect is
in attendance at the moment). Both the NAR Advisor and Tripoli Prefect
are simply elected officers on our board of directors, with no special
powers except the responsibility to serve as liaisons to the two
organizations.
[ Semi-political editorial follows ... ] We *prefer* doing NAR
certifications because any two senior members can be witnesses; having
to make sure the prefect is present and available makes it much harder
to do Tripoli-style certification. The requirement that only the
prefect can certify new members is a throwback to an era of very small
local clubs where the prefect was literally expected to be the one in
charge of everything; we (as well as most other fair-sized clubs) have a
much more distributed structure now, where it is entirely possible to
run a launch without the prefect present. Tripoli badly needs to
rethink this aspect of their certification program (along with a couple
of others).
-----
Greg Smith N9LHI
NAR 15881 * TRA 1974
Director of Operations, Central Illinois Aerospace
gd-s...@uiuc.edu
dangerous_dave,_rocket@elite.net
> Actually, I've been using Bob Smith 120 minute finishing epoxy for my
> paper tubes, which is probably a good choice given the various issues
> you bring up.
I've had pretty good luck with all of the Bob Smith products that I have used.
As a coating or finishing resin, that is probably a good choice. I'm not sure
how is will hold up while laminating fabrics. You also want to make sure the
tube does not have a glassine coating (the glossy finish on most Estes tubes).
The coating will hinder penetration of your resin and all of the actual strength
gain is from the paper fibers being saturated. If all you want to do is ensure
a glossy finish and you are not looking for strength gain, automotive lacquer
primer is the way to go. If you use a high fill primer/surfacer, two or three light
coats applied with an airbrush will be sufficient. Then just sand lightly with
320 grit and you're ready to paint. You can get a very nice glossy finish that
way. The primer can be applied with a hobby or commercial airbrush using
a large nozzle.
Using a small amount of acetone mixed in with your resin will help saturation,
but may not penetrate the glassine surface.
> Should the fabric be stuck on or tacked on in some way first? Or would
> a tacking adhesive (say, 3M 77) prevent the resin from penetrating
> properly? Given the long cure time of finishing epoxy, I suspect the
> fabric might just fall off before it hardens.
Don't use another adhesive to tack your fabrics in place. The foreign adhesive
could contaminate your resin and change its properties (like it may never
cure, I've had that happen more than once) or it could prevent the epoxy from
saturating the fabric.
You need a real good pair of 8" trimming shears (carbide coated if you're
doing a lot of cutting, especially with carbon and kevlar) so you can snip little
sections of glass so it will lay down flat. I'm having trouble describing this
technique so I'll approach it from a different angle, let me know if it is still
unclear. Let's say you lay a flat piece of glass cloth on an irregular surface.
A portion of the cloth may wrinkle, which is undesirable. It must stay as close
to the surface you are laminating as possible. You can smooth the fabric with
your laminating brush to remove most of the wrinkles, but there is one that just
won't go away. Take a single edged razor blade or your trimming shears and
cut through the wrinkle then lap the fabric over. You want to have as few of
these things as possible because they are a real pain to finish. When you do
finish it, you don't want to sand through your lap joint (the place you lapped the
fabric) if it is in a place that needs a lot of reinforcement strength.
If you are doing a small laminate that is strangely shaped (just about anything
that is not flat) or is round, it may be necessary to apply your fabric in several
steps. This critical part is: your second layer must be applied after the first
layer has reached the tack point (that point at which the resin no longer sticks
when you touch it). With some resins this may be critical. If you past tack, you
must then degloss the surface (remove all of the surface sheen) with Scotchbrite
pads or sandpaper and wash the part with water to remove any hardner that has
migrated to the surface.
> Do you need to wait for the first layer to fully or partially harden
> before you put on a second layer?
Yes and no. On most gentle curves and even fin roots, you can apply several
layers at once, including your finishing layers. A lot of this you learn from
experience. Each new shape has all of it's own rules attached and must be
treated differently.
I need to address fin root reinforcement in a separate chapter. There are a lot of
good tricks I have acquired that will ensure that your fins stay on, no matter what
happens.
> Thanks for all the great info!
You're very welcome! Keep up the great questions!
JJirvine
vhei...@ainet.com (Paul & Victoria Heisner) wrote:
>So, therefore, it is more incumbant upon the
>national organization to be mature and responsible than it is for any
>vendor within the field to be so. Because of that, a president and
>BOD threatening its members with ouster or litigation, ousting members
>for political reasons (and thereby cutting them out of their hobby),
>blackballing vendors from advertising for political reasons (and
>thereby cutting off their means of sustanence), and making personal
>attacks on ex-vendors in a public forum reflects MUCH more poorly on
>HPR than ANYTHING DD did.
What direction would I like to see the board move? Well here are some
of my ideas:
5) Re-instate Jerry Irvine. Now I understand that this is a very
unpopular
view with most of you, but please let me explain:
I know Jerry has had bad financial dealings with alot of us.
Jerry: I have yet seen an example of this with any merit. Who are you
referencing?
Fine. That is
between Jerry and the INVOLVED parties. As long as Jerry obeys the bylaws
and pays his dues, he should be allowed to fly in TRA. Now lets think, if
I
fall into bad feelings with the board, should they be allowed to just vote
me out of TRA ... or you. Please think about this one.
Jerry: Lately I wonder if I even want John "supporting" me. However this
is a good policy across the board, not just myself alone.
Jerry
Stu Barrett
>
> > Stu Barrett <s...@zilker.net> writes:
> > I personally get sick and tired of candy ass
> > politcians that are too affraid of offending some of their electorat
> > by calling a spade a @#$% spade. We get what we deserve when we
> > allow folks to get away with slander just because their target is
> > a person who is expected to "suck it up" in order to appear dignified.
>
> Slander? Did you know that in order for a statement to legally
> be considered slander it has to be a lie? Every word of every message
> that I have posted on this newsgroup is backed up with hard
> documentation and photographic records. If you care to browse my web
> page you can find some very fine examples. There are also some very
> fine witnesses that will be happy to put you in touch with.
Dave this was a general statement that subsumes your situation. I was
NOT talking about your or Bruce, I was talking about candy ass mealy
mouth politcians (who I believe may have immunity in the slander domain).
And their polyannish electorate that expect "dignified" lying and
then act surprised when after the election the media decides that
maybe truth and character are issues.
Maybe those folks just don't understand how sausage is made...Sort
of like the folks that flame hunters while eating a hamburger ;-)
Stu (I digress, but Vicky's "lilly white" attitude set me off)
Stu Barrett
>
> vhei...@ainet.com (Paul & Victoria Heisner) wrote:
> >So, therefore, it is more incumbant upon the
> >national organization to be mature and responsible than it is for any
> >vendor within the field to be so. Because of that, a president and
> >BOD threatening its members with ouster or litigation, ousting members
> >for political reasons (and thereby cutting them out of their hobby),
> >blackballing vendors from advertising for political reasons (and
> >thereby cutting off their means of sustanence), and making personal
> >attacks on ex-vendors in a public forum reflects MUCH more poorly on
> >HPR than ANYTHING DD did.
>
> of my ideas:
>
>
> unpopular
> view with most of you, but please let me explain:
>
> I know Jerry has had bad financial dealings with alot of us.
>
> Fine. That is
> between Jerry and the INVOLVED parties. As long as Jerry obeys the bylaws
> and pays his dues, he should be allowed to fly in TRA.
John, John, John, I find that it is amazing for someone to be as
opinionated as you and be as ignorant on the issues.
Jerry was NOT kicked out of TRA for being a slime ball, he was kicked
out for allegedly flying illegally (or allowing others to do so under
mistated waiver information). A violation of the LAW, not just the
bylaws.
TRA kicked Jerry our just like they would kick me out if I pulled
the same stunt. And I'm a nice guy ;-)
Stu (I'm sure that Jerry will respond with pages of proof of his inocence)
kapl...@hccompare.com
> Here in NJ, the only group with a field large enough to fly "G" and
> wanted to stick just with the NAR but we cannot certify in NJ with them,
Please explain this. All that is needed for the NAR certification process is
two senior NAR members. Certainly GSSM has at least two of these. You don't
need a "sanctioned" launch or anything, just go out and fly. (You may need a
waiver, or at least FAA notification under part 101.22 depending on your
rocket. You can even NAR certify at a Tripoli launch, just find 2 adult NAR
members there to sing your form.
JJirvine
someone:
>
>We don't need a third or fourth sport rocket organization (Sorry, Terry,
>Dennis). Hell, we don't even need a second, and if not for some (in
>hindsight) bad management decisions on the part of the NAR Board in the
>early 80's, there would be no TRA today. At their current rate of
progress,
>the current TRA board may rectify the NARs decade old mistake :-)
BoB I couldn't disagree with you more. We do need at least two sport
/amateur rocket organizations. If for nothing else , to have someplace
else
to go when you finally get fed up with the one you are in. In my humble
opinion NAR is too contest orentated.
Jerry: I agree and it has been the case for decades so cannot change,
NARAM-37 showed that. "The only reason
for a sport flyer to stay with NAR is for the insurance". that quote was
from a 15 year old longtime NAR member after attending his first NAR
event.
As for my self I like not having to fly around the contests.
Jerry: Whether this is perception or reality it is the current belief.
On the other hand I am now certified to I through NAR because it s hard
for
me to get to a TRA meet when there are prefects in attendance to certify
me.
Jerry: A common thing which should be encouraged!
I and others like me who just want to fly our birds ,need both
organizations
so that we can explore a wider varity of opportunities to fly. Also since
there are limits (for now perhaps) to NAR TRA offers room to improve and
expand our abilities.
In defence of both organizations we must remember who it is that runs
them.
People like us who have a strong interest in the hobby (yes it is a hobby)
and can put with the BS from whining members (like me) and provide us with
the opportunities (NARAM / LDRS) to fly. I admit that I have neither the
desire nore the patience to run an event like NARAM-37 (the only large
meet
I have attended) and am verry glad there are others whi put up with
everything, to provide us the opportunity to fly. I am also glad that
there
are national organizations to give a sence of belonging to something
greater
than ourselves.
Jerry: This is the primary benefit of membership you know. Not magazine
or insurance.
It also helps when dealing with government bureaucracy.
Jerry: Absolutely needed IMHO.
So Bob more is better IMHO when it comes to rocket organizations.
>
--
Carl (ex-jarhead) Semper Fi NAR# 62911 TRA# 3561
FCC# KB2SGX
"For those who fought for it, freedom has a flavor the
protected will never know"
Unknown Marine, Khe Sahn, Viet Nam
Jerry: Please read my post of a proposed new "sister organization" to NAR
which answers all these problems!!!!!!!
Jerry
Inspiration and application.
Carl Steckler
>
>We don't need a third or fourth sport rocket organization (Sorry, Terry,
>Dennis). Hell, we don't even need a second, and if not for some (in
>hindsight) bad management decisions on the part of the NAR Board in the
>early 80's, there would be no TRA today. At their current rate of progress,
>the current TRA board may rectify the NARs decade old mistake :-)
BoB I couldn't disagree with you more. We do need at least two sport
/amateur rocket organizations. If for nothing else , to have someplace else
to go when you finally get fed up with the one you are in. In my humble
opinion NAR is too contest orentated. NARAM-37 showed that. "The only reason
for a sport flyer to stay with NAR is for the insurance". that quote was
from a 15 year old longtime NAR member after attending his first NAR event.
As for my self I like not having to fly around the contests.
On the other hand I am now certified to I through NAR because it s hard for
me to get to a TRA meet when there are prefects in attendance to certify me.
I and others like me who just want to fly our birds ,need both organizations
so that we can explore a wider varity of opportunities to fly. Also since
there are limits (for now perhaps) to NAR TRA offers room to improve and
expand our abilities.
In defence of both organizations we must remember who it is that runs them.
People like us who have a strong interest in the hobby (yes it is a hobby)
and can put with the BS from whining members (like me) and provide us with
the opportunities (NARAM / LDRS) to fly. I admit that I have neither the
desire nore the patience to run an event like NARAM-37 (the only large meet
I have attended) and am verry glad there are others whi put up with
everything, to provide us the opportunity to fly. I am also glad that there
are national organizations to give a sence of belonging to something greater
than ourselves. It also helps when dealing with government bureaucracy.
March A. Briner
>
>I have much more respect for someone if they stand up and let everyone
>know that their accusor is a lying low life scum sucking @#$%^.
>
Jerry, is this one of your customers?
Marc
JJirvine
Date: 4 Sep 1995 20:31:28 -0400
Message-ID: <42g5p0$e...@oz.plymouth.edu>
Marc
Jerry: Nope. Must be one of yours.
Mark Johnson
>BoB I couldn't disagree with you more. We do need at least two sport
>/amateur rocket organizations. If for nothing else , to have someplace else
>to go when you finally get fed up with the one you are in. In my humble
>opinion NAR is too contest orentated. NARAM-37 showed that. "The only reason
>for a sport flyer to stay with NAR is for the insurance". that quote was
>from a 15 year old longtime NAR member after attending his first NAR event.
>As for my self I like not having to fly around the contests.
Huh? The NAR is "too contest oriented?" Strange...my report from Dan Wolf with
the stats showed that there were over 1000 sport range flights and only about
950 contest flights. When you add in the 750 sport flights at the NSL last
May, that makes a 2:1 ratio of sport vs. contest at the NAR's two national
events for 1995. The ratio holds, or better, at the local level, too. We flew
two "big events" in my home club this year...at our regional meet, KRAMO,
there were about 40 contest flights and 25 sport flights, all crammed into
one day. There would have been lots more sport flights had the field not been
full of show cars and hence unavailable the second day. At our Regional Sport
Launch, we had 211 flights, all fun flying. (not bad for 7 hours actual range
time after deducting late start and debug time for launch hardware and battery
problems.)
Not even including our monthly launches, our club is about 4:1 sport over
contest flying. This is pretty typical everywhere as far as I can see.
Consider that only about 350 of nearly 4000 NAR members actually have flown at
an NAR sanctioned meet in the past two years. Less than half of these are
really what I would call "serious competitors" so the actual percentage of
dedicated contest flyers is somewhere in the 5-9% range.
As for "flying around the contests" the only time I saw this as a problem was
during the NARAM tracking events; the trackers asked that the sport range
refrain from launching at or near the same time as a contest flight was going
up. the maximum delay from the sport range or contest range, at least while I
was RSO, was TEN WHOLE SECONDS. I must admit, at our regional meets we do give
contest flights priority, but that means you have to wait maybe 30 seconds to
a minute while we gather timers and pop off the contest flight.
>In defence of both organizations we must remember who it is that runs them.
>People like us who have a strong interest in the hobby (yes it is a hobby)
>and can put with the BS from whining members (like me) and provide us with
>the opportunities (NARAM / LDRS) to fly. I admit that I have neither the
>desire nore the patience to run an event like NARAM-37 (the only large meet
>I have attended) and am verry glad there are others whi put up with
>everything, to provide us the opportunity to fly. I am also glad that there
>are national organizations to give a sence of belonging to something greater
>than ourselves. It also helps when dealing with government bureaucracy.
>So Bob more is better IMHO when it comes to rocket organizations.
To a point, yes. An organization has a "critical mass" factor that can only be
reached with either bucks or number of members, in order to enable it to do
anything, not to mention to keep it from being dominated by leadership. If
every rocket club in the country suddenly declared itself as a "national
organization of {sport|contest|high power|whatever} rocketeers" the result
would be madness!
As far as having "somewhere to go when you get fed up" that's fine, except
that doesn't accomplish the objective of changing the organization that you're
fed up *with*. At the same time, I recognize how hard that can be too.
Sometimes joining the "other" organization will wake folks up and create
substantive changes.
We're learning more and more about how to interoperate, and that will get
better as time goes on, I hope. I'm not sure where to put efforts like Dennis
Bishop's IAR right now. The place and role of a new organization is always
tough to figure out.
=========
Mark Johnson USnail: Symbios Logic, Inc
E-mail: Mark.J...@symbios.com OEM RAID Business Team
Voice: (316) 636-8189 [V+654-8189] 3718 N. Rock Rd.
Visit our web page: http://www.symbios.com Wichita, KS 67226
Carl Steckler
>Huh? The NAR is "too contest oriented?" Strange...my report from Dan Wolf
with
>the stats showed that there were over 1000 sport range flights and only
about
>950 contest flights.
First as I ststed NARAM_37 was the only large meet I have ever attended and
thus my conclusions were based on that alone.
However the local club (MARS) who hosted the event ran only the contest
events. CMASS who ran the sport pad left in the middle of Sunday because
they wern't equiped for the sudden rain shower (supprise in central NYS
rain?) The rest of the week did not have an emohasis on sport flying, so I
was told. The MARS people did a fine job on running the event, but the
closing of the sport range and the fact that the prep tent was placed over
400 ft closer to the contest pad ("because we have more contest flyers
registered than sport flyers" D. Wolf) did not help sway my conclusion from
the event being contest orentated.
Now having said that you might ask overall did I have fun? YES I DID! That
was why I was there. Flying and meeting others like myself was my intent,
despite all of my whinning and carping. (again I appologize Dan) But because
there is another organization I hacve the choice of attending their events.
I am not locked into ONE organization. Which by the way was the focus of my
first post.
--
Carl (ex-jarhead) Semper Fi
Ryan Woebkenberg
Carl Steckler <cj...@cornell.edu> wrote:
>
>>Huh? The NAR is "too contest oriented?" Strange...my report from Dan Wolf
>registered than sport flyers" D. Wolf) did not help sway my conclusion from
>the event being contest orentated.
>
Yes it was a national model rocket contest...It was also a national
sport event. One thing that for some reason nobody seems to understand
is that rocketry is this tiny niche of a hobby. It only makes sence
to hold it in conjucntion with a national sport event. yes, we now
even have a seperate NSL, so there are now 2 national sport events.
THere are also 2 other reasons Dan neglected to mention about the
placemnt of the tent. The first was that the trackers needed to
be able to see the rocket range. putting the tent equally close
to the two ranges wouldh have inhibeted this. Second, contest
flyers often seem to be pressed for time. I do not know where the
time goes... Often we fly crazy flightst that go for ever and we
need like 8 dudes to get it back. So it makes sence to put the tent
nearest the contest range... I had no problem waliking to the sport
range. When I was sport flying, I had this nice leasurly attitude
that I did not have when contest flying...
-- Ryan "I can fly rc, really" Woebkenberg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
cu...@expert.cc.purdue.edu Look I gotta go... Yeah, I'm running
outta change..... There's a lot of things, if I could I'd rearrange.-Bono
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
JJirvine
In article <42fal5$6...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu> cj...@cornell.edu (Carl
Steckler) writes:
>BoB I couldn't disagree with you more. We do need at least two sport
>/amateur rocket organizations. If for nothing else , to have someplace
else
>to go when you finally get fed up with the one you are in. In my humble
>opinion NAR is too contest orentated.
Huh? The NAR is "too contest oriented?" Strange...my report from Dan Wolf
with
the stats showed that there were over 1000 sport range flights and only
about
950 contest flights. When you add in the 750 sport flights at the NSL last
May, that makes a 2:1 ratio of sport vs. contest at the NAR's two national
events for 1995.
Jerry: Therefore you should see a 2:1 ratio of coverage of these flights
(or more as majorities tend to steal the thunder of minorities). Do we
see that?
The ratio holds, or better, at the local level, too. We flew
two "big events" in my home club this year...at our regional meet, KRAMO,
there were about 40 contest flights and 25 sport flights, all crammed into
one day. There would have been lots more sport flights had the field not
been
full of show cars and hence unavailable the second day. At our Regional
Sport
Launch, we had 211 flights, all fun flying. (not bad for 7 hours actual
range
time after deducting late start and debug time for launch hardware and
battery
problems.)
Not even including our monthly launches, our club is about 4:1 sport over
contest flying.
Jerry: I fully agree this is typical (or more like 12:1). But once again
the only publications which reflect this ratio is a publication made by
Estes and one by "Bruce Kelly enterprises". Sport Rocketry is perceived
correctly as "Competition Rocketry" magazine.
would be madness!
Jerry: That s why we need somewhere affirmative to go and which is
supportive and compatible with the EXISTING credible organization (there
is only one).
At the same time, I recognize how hard that can be too.
Sometimes joining the "other" organization will wake folks up and create
substantive changes.
We're learning more and more about how to interoperate, and that will get
better as time goes on, I hope. I'm not sure where to put efforts like
Dennis
Bishop's IAR right now. The place and role of a new organization is always
tough to figure out.
Jerry: Not so tough. Simply do what Pat Miller proposed in 1988 or so and
everything will be peachy. An NAR affiliated HPR club. Gees, it need not
even be particularly costly. It is needed for perception and regulatory
purposes and of course to publish a HPR centric magazine. It need not
offer alot of expensive services, life insurance, test stands, personal
computers for leaders, stipends, cuts of the budget, etc. It need only
promulgate standards and publish them for all to see and enjoy.
=========
Mark Johnson USnail: Symbios Logic, Inc
Jerry Irvine
Publish or perish.
Mark Johnson
>Jerry: Therefore you should see a 2:1 ratio of coverage of these flights
>(or more as majorities tend to steal the thunder of minorities). Do we
>see that?
Yes, I think we do. Looking at the Summer 1995 Sport Rocketry, I see a 40 page
(really counts as 48, but that's cover + 7 pages of glossy adverts) issue with
1.75 pages headlined "competition rocketry." The article on scale Saturns
dealt indirectly with competition, and the admittedly-ill-timed "Visit
Geneseo" article was a promotion of the full "NARAM event," which I guess you
can argue is mainly focused on competition. Let's be as liberal as possible
with defining what's "competition related."
- 1.75 Page article on vellum rockets
- 0.25 pages of points standings.
- 3.5 pages on Saturn scale.
- 2.0 pages on "visit Geneseo where the National Championships will be."
Total: 7.5 pages out of 40. Don't know what the proportion of advertising is,
but let's guess it at about 25%, or 10 pages.
That's 7.5 of 30 pages of editorial material, or 25%, having something to do
with competition, and NO meet reports. Absent NARAM, there's only been one
report of contest results in the past year and a half, I believe. The ratio
gets better if you allow that really only 2 pages out of the 7 1/2 are really
dedicated to competition, with no other obvious interest (Geneseo is a
genuinely nice place to visit, though I might not go there unless there were
rockets to be flown. If they have an NSL in the future, I will seriously
consider it.)
============
Mark Johnson USnail: Symbios Logic, Inc
Edmund C. Hack
Paul & Victoria Heisner <vhei...@ainet.com> wrote:
>Over 400 years ago, Nostradamus predicted that in article
>
Hmm.. Nostradamus. Title of a song by my favorite recording artist, Al
Stewart. What synchronicity.
>>Houston, TX \ Inferior people should not be employed."-regnaD kciN
>
>Uh, who is Nick Danger????
>
<ringing phone>
Voice 1: "Nick Danger, Third Eye!"
Voice 2: "I'd like a pizza to go, no anchovies"
Voice 1: "No anchovies? You've got the wrong man - I spell my name Danger!"
<phone hangs up>
Voice 2: "What??"
(From "How Can You Be In Two Places At Once?")
Nick Danger, brought to you by Fantastic Cigarettes and Loostner's Caster
Oil Flakes, is the hero of several albums by the Firesign Theatre.
dangerous_dave,_rocket@elite.net
> >
> <ringing phone>
> Voice 1: "Nick Danger, Third Eye!"
> Voice 2: "I'd like a pizza to go, no anchovies"
> Voice 1: "No anchovies? You've got the wrong man - I spell my name Danger!"
> <phone hangs up>
> Voice 2: "What??"
> ech...@crl.com \ Founds states, vests families with fiefs.
> Houston, TX \ Inferior people should not be employed."-regnaD kciN
>
>>>>
Duh? But what if you like anchovies?
March A. Briner
>> >
>> <ringing phone>
>> Voice 1: "Nick Danger, Third Eye!"
>> Voice 2: "I'd like a pizza to go, no anchovies"
>> Voice 1: "No anchovies? You've got the wrong man - I spell my name Danger!"
>> <phone hangs up>
>> Voice 2: "What??"
>>>>>
>
>
Call Domino's. Try calling from the LDRS rangehead next time LDRS is at
Black Rock, and see if they can have it there in 30 minutes. <g>
Marc
kapl...@hccompare.com
> First as I ststed NARAM_37 was the only large meet I have ever attended and
> thus my conclusions were based on that alone.
>
> However the local club (MARS) who hosted the event ran only the contest
> events. CMASS who ran the sport pad left in the middle of Sunday because
> they wern't equiped for the sudden rain shower (supprise in central NYS
That would be a surprise to me and many others who continued to fly on the
sport range all week. There were times that I had to even wait in line (just
a few minutes) at the sport range. On thursday I made 7 sport flights,
including all 6 members of my Skywriter crayon fleet, and only stopped
because I broke a lug on one model I was going to fly and had prepping
problems with another.
BTW, did we meet out there? What were you flying?
Justin Gleiter
In article <42kq88$6...@oz.plymouth.edu>, <m_br...@oz.plymouth.edu> writes:
> >> >
> >> <ringing phone>
> >> Voice 1: "Nick Danger, Third Eye!"
> >> Voice 2: "I'd like a pizza to go, no anchovies"
> >> Voice 1: "No anchovies? You've got the wrong man - I spell my name
Danger!"
> >> <phone hangs up>
> >> Voice 2: "What??"
> >>>>>
> >
> >Duh? But what if you like anchovies?
> >
>
> Call Domino's. Try calling from the LDRS rangehead next time LDRS is at
> Black Rock, and see if they can have it there in 30 minutes. <g>
>
> Marc
>
Justin
dangerous_dave,_rocket@elite.net
> In article <42iuf1$1...@berry.elite.net> Dangerous Dave, roc...@elite.net writes:
> >Duh? But what if you like anchovies?
> >
>
> Call Domino's. Try calling from the LDRS rangehead next time LDRS is at
> Black Rock, and see if they can have it there in 30 minutes. <g>
>
> Marc
>
>>>>
Is that spelled with one G or two? You sure you're not related to Nick?
Mark Bundick
> Jerry: I fully agree this is typical (or more like 12:1). But once again
> the only publications which reflect this ratio is a publication made by
> Estes and one by "Bruce Kelly enterprises". Sport Rocketry is perceived
> correctly as "Competition Rocketry" magazine.
These comments on publications are totally nonsensical when one looks at the
facts. Please count up the column inches of contest or competition coverage
in Sport Rocketry and tell me what you see then. You'll find virtually NO
contest coverage outside NARAM. In fact, many of the complaints directed
towards Sport Rocketry's content that I received in the past year were that
competition WASN'T covered enough.
> Jerry: Not so tough. Simply do what Pat Miller proposed in 1988 or so and
> everything will be peachy. An NAR affiliated HPR club.
Seems to the current president we already have this.
We helped write NFPA 1127 that set the national standards for HPR, recognized
as of August 1, 1995 by 65,000+ public safety officials, we certify the HPR
users, we will be able to start testing HPR motor come October, we publicize
HPR events, including waiver parameters in Launch Windows, and we host a
National event designed to accomodate HPR flying without any contest range
operations at all.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain this "contest-centric" thing to me.
I don't get it yet, but unlike George Bush and the "vision thing", I'm still
willing to listen.
======================================================================
Mark B. Bundick "Running a NARAM will never be harder
NAR President than keeping NAR history straight"
Mark Johnson
>In article <42i49q$a...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, cj...@cornell.edu (Carl
>> However the local club (MARS) who hosted the event ran only the contest
>> events. CMASS who ran the sport pad left in the middle of Sunday because
>> they wern't equiped for the sudden rain shower (supprise in central NYS
>That would be a surprise to me and many others who continued to fly on the
>sport range all week. There were times that I had to even wait in line (just
>a few minutes) at the sport range. On thursday I made 7 sport flights,
>including all 6 members of my Skywriter crayon fleet, and only stopped
I'll reinforce Bob here. On Thursday I flew my 2.6" D-Region on the heels of a
rainstorm. The only reason I didn't fly *in* the rain was because I didn't
want to get completely soaked; CMASS had waterproofed pretty effectively by
then and was prepared to let me fly, rain or no. Seemed to me that Sunday was
the only day they really hung it up because of rain. The sport range even
stayed open till 4:00 PM or so on Friday, long after the contest range closed
at 1:30. Jack Kane and Bill Spadafora pretty much ran the place themselves
during the latter part of the week, too.
Tim Hicks
other such threads. I'm getting better and better at using a kill file
(something I've never had to do before.)
============================================================
Tim Hicks, UNIX Software Consultant, hi...@rtp.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation, Research Triangle Park, NC
# cat $FLAMEBAIT >/dev/null 2>&1