Assault and Battery charges filed against Barry Tunick
Bob Kaplow
in Rosemont IL around 9:45 AM, while getting ready to work in the Model
Rocket Make-It Take-It booth I was physically attacked by Barry Tunick. I
did not initially recognize him, as I think we'd only met once, maybe 9
years ago. He had to ask for me. He was not wearing any show or exhibitor
identification. The booth organizer witnessed Barry strike me, pushing me
back and almost pushing me over. Most of the rest of the morning staff, and
many nearby exhibitors witnessed the following verbal assault. Barry
continued to assault me for maybe one to two minutes. I did nothing in
response, except tell Barry to go away, and eventually turned and walked
away myself. Rosemont police were called, and they escorted Barry out of my
sight.
After the incident I noticed that last year's assaulter, Brian Alleman, was
nearby, wearing the standard Estes booth polo shirt. I suspect that Barry
and Brian had planned this incident together to provoke me, with Brian there
to either act as a false witness and/or to rescue Barry if necessary. There
was no other reason for Brian to be there, 500' away from the Estes booth. I
was set up, but their plans backfired as I did nothing to retaliate. As
Brian had done a year before, Barry repeatedly tried to get me to strike him
back, or take the matter outside. Others have told me that both Brian and
Barry had slandered me both at the show, and back in Penrose.
After my shift in the booth ended, I filed a complaint with the hobby show
office, and Tuesday, October 25th, I filed assault and battery charges with
the Rosemont Police. The case number is 00-10-547. If Barry ever returns to
the Chicago area he is subject to arrest.
Since then I've spoken to Peter W Smith and Greg Ward of TCW (the majority
owners of Estes/Centuri and board members) about the incident. I've also
been called by reporters. I am following up with the Rosemont police to
insure that they do not let this incident fall through the cracks.
If ANY ONE has ever heard Barry Tunick, or any one at Estes / Centuri
threaten me, or even mention my name in any unkind manner, or ever does,
please contact me with the details. And thanks to all my friends in the
rocket community who came to my aid that Saturday morning, or have passed on
their advice or other comments in the past couple weeks.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # Whitewash
Mike Hellmund
All I can say is ask the x-estes (tm) employees who have worked at Estes.
Then this may not be too surprising!
Mike
"Darrell D. Mobley" <ddmo...@uhostme.com> wrote in message
news:3A02E14B...@uhostme.com...
> Alex Mericas wrote:
> >
> > Since there are two sides in every story, and our legal system is still
based
> > on the assumption of innocence.... Perhaps we should let this play out
in
> > court instead of RMR.
>
> At the risk of being crass and insensitive, I will say that I have never
> met Bob Kaplow, but wonder why someone would want to face criminal
> charges in order to get into an altercation with him. Bob has certainly
> invoked that feeling here in r.m.r with others, myself included.
>
> Now I would certainly never seek to escalate my anger toward Bob to
> physical violence and don't condone anyone else doing so, but I must ask
> the question, "Bob, what is it that you have done to make Barry come
> after you like this?" Certainly the president of a major toy company
> wouldn't just arbitrarily pick Bob out of the crowd to harrass, so I
> have to wonder what it is that leads up to this, and annually, no less.
>
> No offense, but I would think that if I had routine run ins with people
> who wanted to kick my ass, I'd start to ask what it was about my
> behavior that caused people to react that way toward me and perhaps
> modify my behavior. Sorry about what happened, Bob, but use this as a
> growth experience to modify those things which incite others to
> violence. You'll be the better man in the end.
> --
> Visit http://www.uHostMe.com -- your High Performance Internet Services
> Hosting Provider!
Brett Buck
>
> Alex Mericas wrote:
> >
> > Since there are two sides in every story, and our legal system is still based
> > on the assumption of innocence.... Perhaps we should let this play out in
> > court instead of RMR.
>
> At the risk of being crass and insensitive, I will say that I have never
> met Bob Kaplow, but wonder why someone would want to face criminal
> charges in order to get into an altercation with him. Bob has certainly
> invoked that feeling here in r.m.r with others, myself included.
>
> Now I would certainly never seek to escalate my anger toward Bob to
> physical violence and don't condone anyone else doing so, but I must ask
> the question, "Bob, what is it that you have done to make Barry come
> after you like this?" Certainly the president of a major toy company
> wouldn't just arbitrarily pick Bob out of the crowd to harrass, so I
> have to wonder what it is that leads up to this, and annually, no less.
While you are entitled to your opinion, there is never an excuse for
this sort of thing. As an officer in a model airplane SIG (PAMPA), I've
seen arguments that make RMR seem like a mutual admiration society. Even
though many of the participants have very strong economic interest,
we've managed to keep from duking it out or getting into altercations
completely. If one feels they must, yell at each other, let the lawyers
sort out the resulting slander and libel if any. Fighting, shoving
matches, whatever, are best left to 8 year olds.
One vitally important issue we should all keep in mind - this is
about *little toy rockets*. While I enjoy the hobby as much as the next
guy, nothing that anyone - Kaplow, Cato, Mobley, Tunick - says, pro or
con, is worth getting into a fight over. Or in this case, going to jail
over.
Brett
Leonard Fehskens
wrote
>At the risk of being crass and insensitive,
You succeeded. I don't care what anyone says, it's *NEVER* justification
for physical assault.
len.
Bob Kaplow
> Sorry to hear about your troubles but an ass whoopin was due after he shoved
> you.
The smartest thing I did was to NOT retaliate. This is exactly what Barry
and Brian were hoping for.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # Whitewash
strateg...@hotmail.com FTNC...@aol.com newy...@cartoonbank.exactis.com
webm...@global-prosperity.com bre...@mail.anet-chi.com jes...@earthlink.net
Blindf...@aol.com postm...@127.0.0.1 pa...@still.zzn.com aho...@ford.com
hern...@fill.zzn.com an...@eircom.net u...@ftc.gov k...@net2000.com.au
lisa...@ntlworld.com to...@cartoonbank.com joel....@welshexec.com
homewo...@alloymail.com
Darrell D. Mobley
>
> "Darrell D. Mobley" wrote:
> >
> > Now I would certainly never seek to escalate my anger toward Bob to
>
> While you are entitled to your opinion, there is never an excuse for
> this sort of thing.
Brett, I didn't say there was an excuse for it, but there must be a
reason. People usually don't travel halfway across the country just to
pick someone out of the public to harass.
Darrell D. Mobley
Again, I also did not say Tunick was justified -- but there must be a
reason. Look, I don't know you from Adam, but I don't have any
ill-harbored feeling toward you. I can't say the same for Bob -- he has
a methodology of insulting people that make them want to poke his lights
out -- and THAT'S the reason. Modify that behavior and the reason goes
away.
Dan Kirk
alex-m...@austin.rr.com wrote:
> Since there are two sides in every story, and our legal system is
still based
> on the assumption of innocence.... Perhaps we should let this play
out in
> court instead of RMR.
>
Perhaps. OTOH, Barry's welcome to post his side of the story here.
And, IMHO, our legal system tends to favor the party that can afford
better lawyers.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
David Urbanek
> At the risk of being crass and insensitive, I will say that I have never
> met Bob Kaplow, but wonder why someone would want to face criminal
> charges in order to get into an altercation with him. Bob has certainly
> invoked that feeling here in r.m.r with others, myself included.
Bob Kaplow is certainly capable of being offensive. I've met Bob and know
some folks who've known him for year. He is certainly capable of making
people angry. So are we all. As far as I can tell, Bob Kaplow offends people
because he speaks his mind and has the social graces of the nerd archetype.
I've never met Barry Tunick, but I've heard a number of stories from people
who've worked for him that he's the type of guy who will try to take
disagreements to a physical level. He's certainly cut of the same cloth as a
Bobby Knight: he thinks that he has to control his temper, you just have to
admit he's right. I've heard a story involving Matt Steele (same story from
two different sources) that made me believe that Barry Tunick never, ever
forgets or forgives a slight, no matter how small. To me he appears to be
just the kind of person who will resort to thuggery and will never give up on
the idea of revenge.
I hope Kaplow nabs Tunick. From everything I've heard and read, Barry Tunick
is a simply bully who is slowly destroying what was once the best model rocket
company going.
--
==========================================================================
"No great advance has ever been made in science, politics, or religion,
without controversy." -- Lyman Beecher
__
\ \_____
@@**=[==_____> David Urbanek (NAR 73974)
/_/
http://public.surfree.com/urbanek
Da...@protelutah.com ==or== urb...@surfree.com
urb...@budweiser.com
Bob Kaplow
[and also in response to Darrell's question...]
> What's the history/ motive behind this?
Barry doesn't like my comments regarding estes in RMR. Last I heard, the
first ammendment hadn't been repealed.
In addition, he's falsly accused me of making death threats against him and
his family. While I certainly don't recall everything I've ever written
here, I did have someone search the archives, and there are no such posts.
The ONLY reference I can find to his family is some one else who mentioned
getting my wife and Vern's wife together with his wife, and I responded that
it never occured to me that he had one or something like that.
Further, he's claimed that I was at some meeting of angry estes customers
somewhere in Colorado Springs in 1992, and made threats against him then. I
was at no such meeting. Prior to NARAM-42, my last trip to Colorado was back
in the winter of 1986, when the Challenger exploded. The weekend after the
explosion, we drove past the Estes plant on the way to or from Royal Gorge.
We never even stopped. He's spread enough lies about me and others to be
charged with slander.
Perhaps Barry takes all the negative comments addressed at him and the
company, and lumps them all together and thinks that everything written on
RMR comes from me. Perhaps he's got some sort of problem. But I can promise
everyone that if he shows up at the Rosemont Expo center for the hobby show
next year, or ever again, I will have the police drag his a$$ off to jail.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # Whitewash
strateg...@hotmail.com FTNC...@aol.com newy...@cartoonbank.exactis.com
Bob Kaplow
> We have (pause) ways of making you buy our kits....
Over my er, ah...
Never Mind
Darrell D. Mobley
> Bob Kaplow is certainly capable of being offensive. I've met Bob and know
> some folks who've known him for year. He is certainly capable of making
> people angry. So are we all. As far as I can tell, Bob Kaplow offends people
> because he speaks his mind and has the social graces of the nerd archetype.
Well, Bob and I have disagreements in the past, but I don't hold any
current ill feelings for him -- he's just another opinionated rocketeer,
a lot like me I suppose. Tunick most certainly seems to be an
egotistical maniac. Oh, God, now he's going to come after me! ;-)
daz...@grin.net
> Again, I also did not say Tunick was justified -- but there must be a
> reason.
> I can't say the same for Bob -- he
> has a methodology of insulting people that make them want to poke his
> lights out -- and THAT'S the reason.
Can't say that I've noticed here on r.m.r - but then I've only been
reading the newsgroup for about 6 months or so. Deja.com only goes
back to last year... has he mellowed lately, or is he a real grouch
in person, or something like that?
- - --- - --- - -
When I first restarted rocketry last April (after being away from the
hobby for Far Too Long... I've got a LOT of history to catch
up on, it seems) and found a (somewhat) local hobby shop that
had rocket stuff, I looked through the Estes kits on sale and
thought, "gee, they sure aren't what they used to be, are they?"
About the only current Estes product I'd have any interest
in is the engines themselves... and stories like this make me think
of switching brands:
What's the legal situation with ordering Apogee "Medalist" composite
engines online for delivery here in California? (I know the BP "micro"
series isn't CSFM-classified.) Is this OK, or would there be issues
with respect to the need to go through a "licensed importer"? I also
note that RocketSilo has Quest motors...
-dave w
bob fortune
"Darrell D. Mobley" wrote:
>
> Again, I also did not say Tunick was justified -- but there must be a
> reason. Look, I don't know you from Adam, but I don't have any
> ill-harbored feeling toward you. I can't say the same for Bob -- he has
> a methodology of insulting people that make them want to poke his lights
> out -- and THAT'S the reason. Modify that behavior and the reason goes
> away.
> --
Violence is never justified, but it's potential is always there. That's
why we have cops and soldiers in our world. You push something or
someone far enough and the result, unhappily, is often explosive behavior.
What one person sees as the expression of an opinion or protective
measures for their passion, the other might see as simply being harassed
- or being stalked. Kaplow doesn't give us any indication of his
interactions with Estes brass outside these two hobby shows so there
might be a history of phone calls, email barrages, threats, posturing,
letter writing campaigns and the like. Only Kaplow and Tunick (and the
Estes attorney) know for sure.
Bob
Leonard Fehskens
wrote
>I can't say the same for Bob -- he has
>a methodology of insulting people that make them want to poke his lights
>out -- and THAT'S the reason. Modify that behavior and the reason goes
>away.
Well, your logic works both ways. I've known Bob for a while and we
get along quite well, and I look forward to seeing him on those occasions
when we're in the same place at the same time.
len.
CapType
I'm not sure I can or want to support a company that would do something like
this.
How about it?
Chris Taylor Jr.
...... POP .... In the middle of a thread. :-) hehehe can someone post the
background of this thread IE the first few posts that set the ground work I
did not get them on my news server :-)
Thanks
Chris
http://www.nerys.com/
"CapType" <cap...@voyager.net> wrote in message
news:3a032632$0$30003$2c3e...@news.voyager.net...
Chris Taylor Jr.
Blunt and to the point with the cold hard truth whether it is nice or not.
Some people get upset if you do not sugar coat it I say fooey and GET em bob
!
Bob like me tends to hand people reality. A lot of people either do not
like it or are not prepared for it.
I tell people if you ask me if I like something and expect a precanned reply
do not ask me. If I like it I will say so If I hate it I will say so and be
blunt and detailed about it.
An example is when some says how does my hair look. They want and expect
you to say it looks fine or great. if you say it sucks they get offended
even though they just asked for youopinion.
In fact they do not want your opinion They just want to you confirm there
own desires and do it by asking for your opinion. I say dont ask if that is
how you think.
<daz...@grin.net> wrote in message news:8tv6n1$tdh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> "Darrell D. Mobley" <ddmo...@uhostme.com> wrote:
> > Again, I also did not say Tunick was justified -- but there must be a
> > reason.
> > ...
> > I can't say the same for Bob -- he
> > has a methodology of insulting people that make them want to poke his
> > lights out -- and THAT'S the reason.
>
Bob Kaplow
> What one person sees as the expression of an opinion or protective
> measures for their passion, the other might see as simply being harassed
> - or being stalked. Kaplow doesn't give us any indication of his
> interactions with Estes brass outside these two hobby shows so there
> might be a history of phone calls, email barrages, threats, posturing,
> letter writing campaigns and the like.
There's been nothing outside of RMR. To the best of my knowledge, I'd only
met the man once before, perhaps in 1991 at the RCHTA show. To date, the
only threat I've made against Barry is that if he ever returns to the hobby
show, I'll have him arrested.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # Whitewash
strateg...@hotmail.com FTNC...@aol.com newy...@cartoonbank.exactis.com
Bob Kaplow
> Perhaps. OTOH, Barry's welcome to post his side of the story here.
I'm guessing that his email would be btu...@centurims.com
I'd love to see him post here :-)
> And, IMHO, our legal system tends to favor the party that can afford
> better lawyers.
Ain't that the truth.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # Whitewash
strateg...@hotmail.com FTNC...@aol.com newy...@cartoonbank.exactis.com
Bob Kaplow
> Can't say that I've noticed here on r.m.r - but then I've only been
> reading the newsgroup for about 6 months or so. Deja.com only goes
> back to last year... has he mellowed lately, or is he a real grouch
> in person, or something like that?
I'm a lot nicer in person :-) Some day some PHD sociologist will write a
paper on internet rage as the electronic analogy of road rage.
Basically, I say what I think, not what someone wants to hear. I'd never
make it as a politician. Or a CEO. Or a punching bag.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # Whitewash
strateg...@hotmail.com FTNC...@aol.com newy...@cartoonbank.exactis.com
conno...@my-deja.com
universally reviled among rocketeers. Why is it then that launch
reports and personal websites show fifty to one Estes rockets? I'm not
talking about newbies, but rather multi-year participants in the hobby
who actively post their anti-Estes sentiments on RMR. Why do people
continue to support a company that is led by a man who shoves people
physically around, does illegal restraint of trade, and has
demonstrated that it doesn't give a damn about it's customers?
I can say with some pride that I've not flown an Estes rocket in many
years, prefering to give my trade to Public Missiles, Aerotech,
Rocketvision and LOC/Precision - companies that are actively committed
to the hobby, not hamstringing it.
Why do people who complain about Estes so much continue to support the
company with their dollars?
- Connor
Dale Greene
>
> > And, IMHO, our legal system tends to favor the party that can afford
> > better lawyers.
>
> Ain't that the truth.
>
> Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # Whitewash
Well, when we're done with the BATF if there is any money left in the
NAR warchest (fat chance,huh) we could establish the Bob Kaplow legal
defence fund!
--
Dale Greene - President
Southern Pennsylvania Area Association of Rocketry Section 503
http://users.supernet.com/pages/feveryear/spaar/index.htm
"willing to make mistakes if someone else is willing to learn from them"
Dick Stafford
a settlement and works the company over. We get B14s, better kits, etc etc
etc.
--
Dick Stafford
TRA# 6578 L2
"Dale Greene" <daleg...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8tvee2$4ea$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
>
> >
> > > And, IMHO, our legal system tends to favor the party that can afford
> > > better lawyers.
> >
> > Ain't that the truth.
> >
> > Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # Whitewash
>
>
Kevin Trojanowski
>
> The smartest thing I did was to NOT retaliate. This is exactly what Barry
> and Brian were hoping for.
I agree completely -- retaliating in their fashion would have been the
absolute worst thing you could do!
-Kevin
Kevin Trojanowski
>
> I'm a lot nicer in person :-) Some day some PHD sociologist will write a
> paper on internet rage as the electronic analogy of road rage.
>
> Basically, I say what I think, not what someone wants to hear. I'd never
> make it as a politician. Or a CEO. Or a punching bag.
That's how I was going to describe you; thanks for saving me the time.
8-} Based upon what I've read of your messages, I'd say you have your
opinions and you're not shy about that. And you call a spade a spade.
NOTHING wrong with that! Heck, those are the kinds of people I PREFER
to work with!
-Kevin
Bob Kaplow
> I don't think it would be a defense fund. Utopian result: Bob gets Estes in
> a settlement and works the company over. We get B14s, better kits, etc etc
> etc.
From a post almost exactly one year ago (all I need to do is change the
dates, and the location) ...
From: kapl...@eisner.decus.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)
Subject:Re: ESTES - RCHTA 99
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 03:17:57 GMT
...
But this afternoon I started dreaming, what if...
{poof}
Friday, July 28, 2000
On the way to NARAM, I stop in Penrose for a tour of the Estes plant. I
haven't seen the place since visiting Jeff Flygare back in 1981. Brian meets
me at the door, takes a swing at me, and decks me. Ambulance takes me to the
Canon City hospital. A couple stitches and I'm fine. After filing a police
report, they lock up the perpetrator.
Saturday, July 29, 2000
My lawyer files suit against defendant and his employer and the holding
company that owns them all. Sues them for all the tea in china. Make that
all the rockets in Penrose.
Sunday, July 30, 2000
I win! Lawyer takes a chunk of the cash, and hands me the keys to the front
door. I'm the new CEO of our favorite rocket company. To celebrate, I make
my L3 flight on the sport range.
Monday, July 31, 2000
I hand out pop quiz to all employees: an Astron Alpha (all balsa parts), an
A8-3, a solar ignitor, a bottle of CA and a modelling knife. Anyone who
can't put up a qualified PD flight within 60 minutes is fired. Employee
count now down to a handful. Bean counter count at zero.
Bring in handful of former employees (Matt, Mike, Tim, Bob, Larry) and other
rocket notables to restart company.
Tuesday, August 1, 2000
All K-series kits reintroduced in their original form. Other classic kits
brought back ASAP. Same for old Centuri kits. All RTF models immediately
dropped (except for new Happy Meal flying saucer - food container). Molds
for Star Wars RTF rockets destroyed.
Darrell Mobley comes on board to get the web site up to speed.
Wednesday, August 2, 2000
All discontinued motors are back in production (except those darned E15s).
D48 and C10 submitted for certification. G72s see first production. E15
replaced by 24x70 composite E Dark Star.
Peter Alway hired as consultant to design new scale kits that are accurate.
Thursday, August 3, 2000
NCR joined by Apogee, Edmonds, Holverson, Launch Pad, Rocketflite, and a
bunch of others under the Centuri brand.
George Gassaway hired to design a line of competition kits second to none.
Friday, August 4, 2000
Vern Estes gets his old office back. Just because.
All first place event winners at NARAM get a 1/100 Saturn-V. Second place
winners get 1/100 Saturn IB. Third place winners get Gemini Titans (K21).
Fourth plae winners get Mercury Redstone (the old Centuri version). DLBF in
each event gets an Astron Spaceman! And wait until you see the prizes for
national champions.
Saturday, August 5th, 2000
Time for me to hire new CEO who has an MBA, a 4 digit NAR#, and a bunch of
NARAM awards; retire, and head back for Chicago. NARAM-42 really was a lot
of fun.
{poof}
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # Whitewash
strateg...@hotmail.com FTNC...@aol.com newy...@cartoonbank.exactis.com
Art Fuldodger
Ah, but in a way, having this news made public is perhaps the sweetest
kind of retaliation there is! I'd bet that right about now, Tunick is throwing
hole punches, staplers, and chairs around the office, punching holes in
walls, knocking over filing cabinets, and screaming up a bloody storm.
Can you say, "aneurysm", boys 'n girls?
Mike Hellmund
<conno...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8tve9q$4d2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Why do people who complain about Estes so much continue to support the
> company with their dollars?
Good question. I have a high regard for the people at Estes who actually
contribute to it's forward movement. My opinion is you can remove the top
management of Estes and there would be no change, perhaps even an
improvement, on their status as a company. I love the product, the
company's history, the people who work in R&D, Marketing, production etc are
fine, hard working folks who have to work, at times, in difficult
conditions.
It's kind of like the election -- you hold your nose and vote for one of the
four candidates. In this case, you buy the product hoping that after the
present sr. management goes away, the company will still be there.
Mike
Art Fuldodger
> But this afternoon I started dreaming, what if...
>
> {poof}
<snip>
> Peter Alway hired as consultant to design new scale kits that are accurate.
...especially to design the new 1:100 Soviet N-1, right?
Chris Taylor Jr.
IE I can go to walmart hobby store etc.. and buy estes. I can just now
start getting a VERY limited supply of quest and a teeny teeny tiny bit of
Holverson and Custom
Public Missle is not an option for me cause it just costs to much Not so
much for the rocket but for the motors to fly in them.
Estes is the company you hate but can not live without. the hobby rocketry
industry would be effectively eliminated without estes no matter what
anybody says.
Most importantly the MOTORS sure others make motors but not at a buck a pop
not even close.
Even estes waining (not possible reviving) kti line is the most "popular"
cause it is availble to the average person.
Rocket Vision is GREAT and I do plan to own every single one of there models
but they are also Extremely expensive.
Quest makes motor at almost the same cost but only 3 kinds or so.
Apogee has a plethora of motors but they are expensive and specialized and
limited when used is mass heavy rockets they we usually fly (optimized for
long burn competition flights)
I do not even fly a lot of aerotech simply because of the cost per flight.
(although some are well worth it for example RC glider flights etc..)
The fact that estes has such a strangle hold on the hobby rocketry industry
is what makes it so hard To talk nice about them :-) Even if another
company got into the distribution channels (yeah right) with a new engine
etc.. All estes has to do is crank up there mables for 1 days production of
a competing engine and put them out of buisness.
Even kits from other manufacturers are hurt if and when estes kills the
engine that that kit needs !!!
My nanorocketry is gone if quest kills the MMaxx engine. I hope eventually
that others companies will make engines in the same 6mm size category. (here
me estes and apogee :-) but it would likely not be profitable for someone
like apogee or aerotech and not logical for someone like Estes.
<conno...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8tve9q$4d2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> This is interesting. From what I've read, todays Estes is almost
> universally reviled among rocketeers. Why is it then that launch
> reports and personal websites show fifty to one Estes rockets? I'm not
> talking about newbies, but rather multi-year participants in the hobby
> who actively post their anti-Estes sentiments on RMR. Why do people
> continue to support a company that is led by a man who shoves people
> physically around, does illegal restraint of trade, and has
> demonstrated that it doesn't give a damn about it's customers?
>
> I can say with some pride that I've not flown an Estes rocket in many
> years, prefering to give my trade to Public Missiles, Aerotech,
> Rocketvision and LOC/Precision - companies that are actively committed
> to the hobby, not hamstringing it.
>
> Why do people who complain about Estes so much continue to support the
> company with their dollars?
>
> - Connor
Chris Taylor Jr.
Never change from that.
I wish everyone was like that.
Say what you mean not what they want to hear.
"Bob Kaplow" <kapl...@eisner.decus.org.mars> wrote in message
news:f09K21...@eisner.decus.org...
> In article <8tv6n1$tdh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, daz...@grin.net writes:
> > Can't say that I've noticed here on r.m.r - but then I've only been
> > reading the newsgroup for about 6 months or so. Deja.com only goes
> > back to last year... has he mellowed lately, or is he a real grouch
> > in person, or something like that?
>
> I'm a lot nicer in person :-) Some day some PHD sociologist will write a
> paper on internet rage as the electronic analogy of road rage.
>
> Basically, I say what I think, not what someone wants to hear. I'd never
> make it as a politician. Or a CEO. Or a punching bag.
>
Mike Hellmund
"CapType" <cap...@voyager.net> wrote in message
news:3a032632$0$30003$2c3e...@news.voyager.net...
> I'd like an explaination from Estes.
> I'm not sure I can or want to support a company that would do something
like
> this.
>
> How about it?
>
Well you can bet that they are reading this right now.
Joe Pfeiffer
>
> Why do people who complain about Estes so much continue to support the
> company with their dollars?
Because in the A-C league they're the only game in town.
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer
VL 2000 Homepage: http://www.cs.orst.edu/~burnett/vl2000/
Scott McCrate
conno...@my-deja.com wrote:
>snip<
> I can say with some pride that I've not flown an Estes rocket in many
> years, prefering to give my trade to Public Missiles, Aerotech,
> Rocketvision and LOC/Precision - companies that are actively committed
> to the hobby, not hamstringing it.
>
> Why do people who complain about Estes so much continue to support the
> company with their dollars?
>
> - Connor
I agree--somewhat. I continue to buy from Estes because I hold out hope
the they will someday come back to the hobbyists that have kept them in
business for so long. I try to buy what I can from the small internet
guys and I have at least a couple of models or products from just about
every dedicated small operator out there. I would love to buy nothing
but Apogee motors, but they are a little steep for me. (I do need to
send Tim another order one day soon). Estes is the only significant
manufacturer of inexpensive, easily obtainable BP motors around. I buy
Quest whenever I find a supplier, but for us modroc guys, Estes is still
the main supplier for our BP fix. There has been much discussion here
about what would really be involved for an individual or group of
individuals to start up a motor production facility. Suffice it to say
that in today's regulated business environment it would be logistically
daunting and financially difficult and very risky. Despite the fact that
I don't like what has become of Estes in the past two decades, I
understand the market forces that sent them that way even though I
think that they made several sizable mistakes. I continue to support
them because in spite of their current leadership, I believe something
of the old company might be reborn.
--
Scott McCrate
NAR 71680
scoo...@my-deja.com
I feel the NEED! The need for EXPEDITIOUS VELOCITY! --- Pinky and the
Brain
Chris Lewis
> At the risk of being crass and insensitive, I will say that I have never
> met Bob Kaplow, but wonder why someone would want to face criminal
> charges in order to get into an altercation with him. Bob has certainly
> invoked that feeling here in r.m.r with others, myself included.
Once someone becomes well-known, whether for good reasons or bad, whether
on the Internet or anything else, it's simple human nature that there'll
be at least one person out there takes exception. Whether it be some
sort of delusional persecution complex, false rumours ("I've heard that
you are a <choose your favourite villany>, so I'll stop you!"), delusional
love interests, or a simple juvenile "[s]he's not so smart/tough/cute/bad...
I'll show her/him!" reaction.
It could take the form of email bombing, physical violence, telephone
harrassment, stalking, false criminal complaints and many other things.
Movie stars and politicians know the phenomenon well.
Well, it happens on the Internet too. I have plenty of personal experience...
Asking what Bob did to deserve what happened is blaming the victim for
something that is actually basic human nature and has nothing whatsoever
to do with Bob. Taking strong stands (whether right/wrong/popular/unpopular)
on the Internet is one easy way to trigger such reactions. Often from
someone you've never heard of before. Especially since on the Internet
it's so easy to get away with harrassment. [And of course, flame wars
do occasionally tend to escalate into real-world conflicts, and when
you're picking up the pieces afterwards, it's impossible to tell who is
to blame.]
I know nothing of what's going on with Bob w.r.t. ESTES, other than to
think that there's some sort of conflict going on. It's unlikely that his
attacker simply attacked Bob out of the blue because of the conflict itself
per-se. But possible. Some people are unable to handle conflict except
by physical violence. I _suspect_ that Bob's attacker has heard (and
believed) false rumours about Bob threatening him or his family. That's
a vastly more likely explanation for his attacker's actions.
An explanation. Absolutely not an excuse... In a trial that may influence
sentencing. But it shouldn't affect the verdict.
--
Chris Lewis, 8M50-I
For more information on spam, see http://spam.abuse.net/spam
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
Jim Yanik
<GdGM5.14574$rl.11...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>:
>Here is how I see this thread
>
>...... POP .... In the middle of a thread. :-) hehehe can someone post
>the background of this thread IE the first few posts that set the ground
>work I did not get them on my news server :-)
>
>Thanks
>Chris
>http://www.nerys.com/
>
You ever hear of DejaNews? You can go there and get old posts.A lot better
that repeating them here.
Jim Yanik,NRA member
bob fortune
Bob Kaplow wrote:
>
> There's been nothing outside of RMR. To the best of my knowledge, I'd only
> met the man once before, perhaps in 1991 at the RCHTA show. To date, the
> only threat I've made against Barry is that if he ever returns to the hobby
> show, I'll have him arrested.
>
Looks like we both use Verio, they've been pretty flaky the last couple
of days. Sometimes NS wouldn't show my messages as being posted and I'd
look in Outlook Express and see them in the group - pretty weird. I'm
not exactly sure it's the best ISP going but I'm kinda stuck at the moment.
I'd take your word any day of the week over someone I don't know. What
puzzles me is why an executive of a _hobby_ company would resort to such
tactics. WWF, stock car, or even a movie exec I can understand. We're
talking about a multi-million dollar company here, the needs and fate of
a couple of thousand rocketeers is pretty much incidental. Guessing at
what kind of compensation an exec in his position is likely to pull
down, he could probably buy me and you (woodpeckers and all) if he
wanted to. But he let his anger get the better of him.
If it were me, I'd forgo the suit and drop the complaint IF I got a
handwritten letter of apology from the guy. Not typed. People with
large egos absolutely hate having to do something like that, it would
really frost his pumpkin. A nice "Dear Bob" letter.
Bob
David Urbanek
> > company with their dollars?
OK, lets go all out for the Barry Tunick's enemies list.
I complain about Estes, and I do something about it.
Where possible, I give my money to someone else. Now that I know Hammonds
Toys and Hobbies in Utah carries Quest motors, I'm buying fewer and fewer
Estes motors. I don't buy Estes kits.
I don't recommend Estes to people who ask me what rocket to buy. When people
want a good starter set, I point them at Quest.
I take every opportunity to point out to the rocketry community how Estes
completely disrespects us. The ultimate was their snubbing NARAM 2000. How
can you interpret that any way except overt hostility to an organization that
helps keep rocketry alive? We don't matter to them. They know that most of
the NAR is driven by nostalgia. Estes's slogan may as well be: "Hey, kiss my
butt and buy my rockets, you moron."
Barry Tunick is counting on the fact that people will buy low quality junk,
from a company who thinks their customers are stupid sheep, purely for
nostalgia's sake. In fact, by buying their overpriced garbage for nostalgia's
sake, you're proving him right. $35.00 for a Maxi Alpha? $50.00 for the POS
Honest John? Woohoo, they brought the Mean Machine back?????? Give me a
break! I really wish people would wake up and realize that Estes's slogan is,
in practice: "Hey, kiss my butt and buy my rockets, you moron".
If Barry Tunick was attacking Bob Kaplow because of what he wrote on line,
then I can't wait to meet Barry in person. If I keep up my current ways,
Barry will blow blood vessels from his brain to his toes. It'll look like
something from "Total Recall". I've been extremely strident in my indictment
of Estes and I will continue to do so as long as Estes maintains their "Hey,
kiss my butt and buy my rockets, you moron" attitude. I think he's done as
much to tear down hobby rocketry as Vern Estes did to build it up.
--
==========================================================================
"No great advance has ever been made in science, politics, or religion,
without controversy." -- Lyman Beecher
__
\ \_____
@@**=[==_____> David Urbanek (NAR 73974)
/_/
http://public.surfree.com/urbanek
Da...@protelutah.com ==or== urb...@surfree.com
urb...@budweiser.com
Jeff Cowles
until he divulges the secret.
Truthfully I can't believe people will act like that. It still amazes me at
how some people behave. Especially when they are at a show like that
representing their company. I personally get a talk everytime I goto any
sort of convetion to be on my best behavior. So far I have.
--
Jeff
NEFAR MEMBER
NAR# 78230
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/jgs321/
"Darrell D. Mobley" <ddmo...@uhostme.com> wrote in message
news:3A02E14B...@uhostme.com...
> Alex Mericas wrote:
> >
> > Since there are two sides in every story, and our legal system is still
based
> > on the assumption of innocence.... Perhaps we should let this play out
in
> > court instead of RMR.
>
> At the risk of being crass and insensitive, I will say that I have never
> met Bob Kaplow, but wonder why someone would want to face criminal
> charges in order to get into an altercation with him. Bob has certainly
> invoked that feeling here in r.m.r with others, myself included.
>
> Now I would certainly never seek to escalate my anger toward Bob to
> physical violence and don't condone anyone else doing so, but I must ask
> the question, "Bob, what is it that you have done to make Barry come
> after you like this?" Certainly the president of a major toy company
> wouldn't just arbitrarily pick Bob out of the crowd to harrass, so I
> have to wonder what it is that leads up to this, and annually, no less.
>
> No offense, but I would think that if I had routine run ins with people
> who wanted to kick my ass, I'd start to ask what it was about my
> behavior that caused people to react that way toward me and perhaps
> modify my behavior. Sorry about what happened, Bob, but use this as a
> growth experience to modify those things which incite others to
> violence. You'll be the better man in the end.
> --
> Visit http://www.uHostMe.com -- your High Performance Internet Services
> Hosting Provider!
Tim Burger
spend most of their day yelling and all I can usually think about is looking
for someplace else to work. The ironic thing is that most of the people
with this type of personality think that they are God's gift to the world
and everyone loves them.
--
Tim Burger
Please remove the anti-spam device when replying.
" . . . Light this candle!"
A. B. Shepard
Art Fuldodger <trave...@lightspeed.com> wrote in message
news:9sHM5.2885$I3.1...@typhoon1.ba-dsg.net...
Woody Miller
only heard the "Bob Centric" version of events. Is there anybody out there who
saw this all happen and can back up Bob's side? (Probably not....)
Look at Bob's words "saw Barry strike me and almost pushed me over".. I've had
friends/unknown people come up behind me, strike me on the back, and almost push
me over.. They meant no harm, in that they'd say "hey woody! How's it going?",
but it took me by suprise....
In Bob's scenario, It "could" have been, that Barry was looking to work things
out between Estes and Bob, came up to Bob, slapped him on the back and said "Hi
Bob, I'm Barry", scared Bob, and Bob tripped on something, and Bob then claimed
assault (some time later even to the show officials, in his own words........)
The Charges filed, are again, only the "Bob Centric" view, and the cops probably
just said "ok.. we'll write it down", never expecting to hear of Barry again...
I doubt that any exec of a mid size company would "physically attack" Bob, at a
convention in front of scores of witnesses, or if that had been the case, others
would have restrained Barry until help arrived. Bob did not tell RMR what he
said during the "verbal assault", nor what Barry said to him... The fact that
Bob didn't report it until after his shift had ended, to me, sure says that it
was a much smaller event than Bob claims it was. Surely one of the many
witnesses would have called for show security as soon as things got tense, if
they really did.... This isn't like it happened in a dark alley..
This is the same smoke that Bob blows when talking about TRA, Bruce Kelly,
etc...
(flame guard on.....)
Mark Simpson wrote:
>
> Bob,
> It looks like we can't take you anywhere. ;-) I'm glad to hear that you kept
> your head and didn't stoop to their level. Who knows, after a civil lawsuit, you
> may have your own Extes Company.
>
> Mark Simpson
> NAR 71503 Level II
>
> Bob Kaplow wrote:
>
> > On Saturday morning, October 21, 2000, at the National Model and Hobby Show
> > in Rosemont IL around 9:45 AM, while getting ready to work in the Model
> > Rocket Make-It Take-It booth I was physically attacked by Barry Tunick. I
> > did not initially recognize him, as I think we'd only met once, maybe 9
> > years ago. He had to ask for me. He was not wearing any show or exhibitor
> > identification. The booth organizer witnessed Barry strike me, pushing me
> > back and almost pushing me over. Most of the rest of the morning staff, and
> > many nearby exhibitors witnessed the following verbal assault. Barry
> > continued to assault me for maybe one to two minutes. I did nothing in
> > response, except tell Barry to go away, and eventually turned and walked
> > away myself. Rosemont police were called, and they escorted Barry out of my
> > sight.
> >
> > After the incident I noticed that last year's assaulter, Brian Alleman, was
> > nearby, wearing the standard Estes booth polo shirt. I suspect that Barry
> > and Brian had planned this incident together to provoke me, with Brian there
> > to either act as a false witness and/or to rescue Barry if necessary. There
> > was no other reason for Brian to be there, 500' away from the Estes booth. I
> > was set up, but their plans backfired as I did nothing to retaliate. As
> > Brian had done a year before, Barry repeatedly tried to get me to strike him
> > back, or take the matter outside. Others have told me that both Brian and
> > Barry had slandered me both at the show, and back in Penrose.
> >
> > After my shift in the booth ended, I filed a complaint with the hobby show
> > office, and Tuesday, October 25th, I filed assault and battery charges with
> > the Rosemont Police. The case number is 00-10-547. If Barry ever returns to
> > the Chicago area he is subject to arrest.
> >
> > Since then I've spoken to Peter W Smith and Greg Ward of TCW (the majority
> > owners of Estes/Centuri and board members) about the incident. I've also
> > been called by reporters. I am following up with the Rosemont police to
> > insure that they do not let this incident fall through the cracks.
> >
> > If ANY ONE has ever heard Barry Tunick, or any one at Estes / Centuri
> > threaten me, or even mention my name in any unkind manner, or ever does,
> > please contact me with the details. And thanks to all my friends in the
> > rocket community who came to my aid that Saturday morning, or have passed on
> > their advice or other comments in the past couple weeks.
> >
> > Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # Whitewash
--
Woody Miller
NAR 74701 Sr L2
SSS
EARS
----------------------------------------------------------------
Alpha 40 Project website: http://www.users.uswest.net/~woody8
Superstition Spacemodeling Society: http://www.sssrocketry.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Binford
"Mark Simpson" <mark.s...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3A0359D1...@home.com...
> > Perhaps. OTOH, Barry's welcome to post his side of the story here.
> > better lawyers.
>
Ask OJ :-)
Tom
David Weinshenker
> Dear Dave W. & RMR,
> Bob is not a real grouch in person, he is anything but.
> I have found him to be personable, humorous, knowledgeable
> and willing to help anyone enter our sport. Some may consider
> his posts opinionated and pointed but if you read them all
> you will find a man with a real zeal for our hobby.
That's certainly the impression I get online - not
surprised to hear that those who've dealt with him
directly feel the same way.
-dave w
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Brett Buck
> About the only current Estes product I'd have any interest
> in is the engines themselves... and stories like this make me think
> of switching brands:
> What's the legal situation with ordering Apogee "Medalist" composite
> engines online for delivery here in California? (I know the BP "micro"
> series isn't CSFM-classified.) Is this OK, or would there be issues
> with respect to the need to go through a "licensed importer"? I also
> note that RocketSilo has Quest motors...
The Apogee composite motors are CSFM approved (under Aerotech's
ageis) and are legal to possess and use.
Brett
Fred Shecter
CSFM. There may be different penalties associated with each of the
following:
possession
storage
importing
selling
discharging (using, flying, burning....)
http://www.fireworks-safety.com/plate.main/firemarshal/64pages.html
I still hope they get CSFM classified, as we have quite a few people who
want to hold NAR competitions (and fly them for *FUN*).
How about a CSFM "warchest" or even a California surcharge to get it done?
-Fred Shecter NAR 20117
<daz...@grin.net> wrote in message news:8tv6n1$tdh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> "Darrell D. Mobley" <ddmo...@uhostme.com> wrote:
> > Again, I also did not say Tunick was justified -- but there must be a
> > reason.
> > ...
> > I can't say the same for Bob -- he
> > has a methodology of insulting people that make them want to poke his
> > lights out -- and THAT'S the reason.
>
> Can't say that I've noticed here on r.m.r - but then I've only been
> reading the newsgroup for about 6 months or so. Deja.com only goes
> back to last year... has he mellowed lately, or is he a real grouch
> in person, or something like that?
>
> - - --- - --- - -
>
> When I first restarted rocketry last April (after being away from the
> hobby for Far Too Long... I've got a LOT of history to catch
> up on, it seems) and found a (somewhat) local hobby shop that
> had rocket stuff, I looked through the Estes kits on sale and
> thought, "gee, they sure aren't what they used to be, are they?"
>
> About the only current Estes product I'd have any interest
> in is the engines themselves... and stories like this make me think
> of switching brands:
> What's the legal situation with ordering Apogee "Medalist" composite
> engines online for delivery here in California? (I know the BP "micro"
> series isn't CSFM-classified.) Is this OK, or would there be issues
> with respect to the need to go through a "licensed importer"? I also
> note that RocketSilo has Quest motors...
>
> -dave w
Fred Shecter
Will we see Johnny Cochran trying to fit an Econojet into a North Coast by
Estes mount?
8-)
-Fred "Can't we all just get along" Shecter
Fred Shecter
-Shread Vector NRA #1 Paramount Leader
Chris Taylor Jr. <nos...@nerys.com> wrote in message
news:%kGM5.14598$rl.11...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> I think I have a finger on bob and he is like me.
>
> Blunt and to the point with the cold hard truth whether it is nice or not.
>
> Some people get upset if you do not sugar coat it I say fooey and GET em
bob
> !
>
> Bob like me tends to hand people reality. A lot of people either do not
> like it or are not prepared for it.
>
> I tell people if you ask me if I like something and expect a precanned
reply
> do not ask me. If I like it I will say so If I hate it I will say so and
be
> blunt and detailed about it.
>
> An example is when some says how does my hair look. They want and expect
> you to say it looks fine or great. if you say it sucks they get offended
> even though they just asked for youopinion.
>
> In fact they do not want your opinion They just want to you confirm there
> own desires and do it by asking for your opinion. I say dont ask if that
is
> how you think.
>
> Chris
> http://www.nerys.com/
David Weinshenker
> ... while getting ready to work in the Model
> Rocket Make-It Take-It booth I was physically
> attacked by Barry Tunick.
> The booth organizer witnessed Barry strike me, pushing
> me back and almost pushing me over. Most of the rest of
> the morning staff, and many nearby exhibitors witnessed
> the following verbal assault.
oh my god ...
> Tuesday, October 25th, I filed assault and battery charges
> with the Rosemont Police. The case number is 00-10-547. If
> Barry ever returns to the Chicago area he is subject to arrest.
Can't they extradite?
Jerry Hunnicutt
you.
"Bob Kaplow" <kapl...@eisner.decus.org.mars> wrote in message
> On Saturday morning, October 21, 2000, at the National Model and Hobby
Show
> in Rosemont IL around 9:45 AM, while getting ready to work in the Model
> Rocket Make-It Take-It booth I was physically attacked by Barry Tunick. I
> did not initially recognize him, as I think we'd only met once, maybe 9
> years ago. He had to ask for me. He was not wearing any show or exhibitor
> back and almost pushing me over. Most of the rest of the morning staff,
and
> continued to assault me for maybe one to two minutes. I did nothing in
> response, except tell Barry to go away, and eventually turned and walked
> away myself. Rosemont police were called, and they escorted Barry out of
my
> sight.
>
> After the incident I noticed that last year's assaulter, Brian Alleman,
was
> nearby, wearing the standard Estes booth polo shirt. I suspect that Barry
> and Brian had planned this incident together to provoke me, with Brian
there
> to either act as a false witness and/or to rescue Barry if necessary.
There
> was no other reason for Brian to be there, 500' away from the Estes booth.
I
> was set up, but their plans backfired as I did nothing to retaliate. As
> Brian had done a year before, Barry repeatedly tried to get me to strike
him
> back, or take the matter outside. Others have told me that both Brian and
> Barry had slandered me both at the show, and back in Penrose.
>
> After my shift in the booth ended, I filed a complaint with the hobby show
with
> the Rosemont Police. The case number is 00-10-547. If Barry ever returns
to
> the Chicago area he is subject to arrest.
>
Dierenarts
What's the history/ motive behind this?
Koen
--
Koen O. Loeven
NAR # 69386 SR Level 2
Tripoli # 7368 Level 2
Hilty Information Systems
Kaplow) wrote:
>On Saturday morning, October 21, 2000, at the National Model and Hobby Show
>in Rosemont IL around 9:45 AM, while getting ready to work in the Model
>Rocket Make-It Take-It booth I was physically attacked by Barry Tunick.
Holy cow! Not a very bright thing for him to do in public methinks...
<snip>
>After the incident I noticed that last year's assaulter, Brian Alleman,
Last year!? Is the "Ritual Beating of Bob Kaplow" going to be an
annual National Model and Hobby show "event"?
Wow.
<snip>
>Since then I've spoken to Peter W Smith and Greg Ward of TCW (the majority
>owners of Estes/Centuri and board members) about the incident.
Hopefully they'll do what's in the best interest of the shareholders,
and "can" this twit!
tah
Tod A. Hilty NAR #72099
Hilty Information Systems
Member MTMA, NAR Section #606
Mantua Township Missile Agency
http://web.raex.com/~markndeb/rockets/mtma/
"I'm going to put the wheels of the bus back on... just in case"
- BlankReg, Max Headroom: 20 Minutes Into the Future
"I speak for myself _and_ my corporation! Deal with it!"
- blankreg
- remove nospam.ever, and replace with apk for reply
Alex Mericas
on the assumption of innocence.... Perhaps we should let this play out in
court instead of RMR.
Hilty Information Systems wrote:
> >Since then I've spoken to Peter W Smith and Greg Ward of TCW (the majority
> >owners of Estes/Centuri and board members) about the incident.
>
> Hopefully they'll do what's in the best interest of the shareholders,
> and "can" this twit!
--
Alex Mericas
NAR 62956 Level 2
President, Austin Area Rocketry Group
Darrell D. Mobley
>
> Since there are two sides in every story, and our legal system is still based
> on the assumption of innocence.... Perhaps we should let this play out in
> court instead of RMR.
At the risk of being crass and insensitive, I will say that I have never
Kurt Kesler
kapl...@eisner.decus.org.mars says...
> On Saturday morning, October 21, 2000, at the National Model and Hobby Show
> in Rosemont IL around 9:45 AM, while getting ready to work in the Model
> Rocket Make-It Take-It booth I was physically attacked by Barry Tunick.
>
And people worry about TRA "outlaw biker" types...
;-)
--
Kurt Kesler
"Estes...the new bad boys on the block"
Dick Stafford
--
Dick Stafford
TRA# 6578 L2
"Kurt Kesler" <ne...@keslers.removetosend.net> wrote in message
news:B1AD698AAFAD3252.07FAB54C...@lp.airnews.net...
Hilty Information Systems
<alex-m...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>Since there are two sides in every story, and our legal system is still based
>on the assumption of innocence.... Perhaps we should let this play out in
>court instead of RMR.
Point taken. Yer right Alex..
Chris Taylor Jr.
and one rtf mold
the min marz lander is darn cute and I love the Naboo Starship. No matter
how bad it flies (mine fly fine) it looks like the blackbird so I just have
to love it.
:-)
"Bob Kaplow" <kapl...@eisner.decus.org.mars> wrote in message
news:jqzEkG...@eisner.decus.org...
> In article <8tvf1e$mge$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>, "Dick Stafford"
<rst...@nospam.erols.com> writes:
> > I don't think it would be a defense fund. Utopian result: Bob gets
Estes in
> > a settlement and works the company over. We get B14s, better kits, etc
etc
> > etc.
>
> From a post almost exactly one year ago (all I need to do is change the
> dates, and the location) ...
>
> From: kapl...@eisner.decus.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)
> Subject:Re: ESTES - RCHTA 99
> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 03:17:57 GMT
> ...
> But this afternoon I started dreaming, what if...
>
> {poof}
>
> Friday, July 28, 2000
>
> On the way to NARAM, I stop in Penrose for a tour of the Estes plant. I
> haven't seen the place since visiting Jeff Flygare back in 1981. Brian
meets
> me at the door, takes a swing at me, and decks me. Ambulance takes me to
the
> Canon City hospital. A couple stitches and I'm fine. After filing a police
> report, they lock up the perpetrator.
>
> Saturday, July 29, 2000
>
> My lawyer files suit against defendant and his employer and the holding
> company that owns them all. Sues them for all the tea in china. Make that
> all the rockets in Penrose.
>
> Sunday, July 30, 2000
>
> I win! Lawyer takes a chunk of the cash, and hands me the keys to the
front
> door. I'm the new CEO of our favorite rocket company. To celebrate, I make
> my L3 flight on the sport range.
>
> Monday, July 31, 2000
>
> I hand out pop quiz to all employees: an Astron Alpha (all balsa parts),
an
> A8-3, a solar ignitor, a bottle of CA and a modelling knife. Anyone who
> can't put up a qualified PD flight within 60 minutes is fired. Employee
> count now down to a handful. Bean counter count at zero.
>
> Bring in handful of former employees (Matt, Mike, Tim, Bob, Larry) and
other
> rocket notables to restart company.
>
> Tuesday, August 1, 2000
>
> All K-series kits reintroduced in their original form. Other classic kits
> brought back ASAP. Same for old Centuri kits. All RTF models immediately
> dropped (except for new Happy Meal flying saucer - food container). Molds
> for Star Wars RTF rockets destroyed.
>
> Darrell Mobley comes on board to get the web site up to speed.
>
> Wednesday, August 2, 2000
>
> All discontinued motors are back in production (except those darned E15s).
> D48 and C10 submitted for certification. G72s see first production. E15
> replaced by 24x70 composite E Dark Star.
>
> Peter Alway hired as consultant to design new scale kits that are
accurate.
>
> Thursday, August 3, 2000
>
> NCR joined by Apogee, Edmonds, Holverson, Launch Pad, Rocketflite, and a
> bunch of others under the Centuri brand.
>
> George Gassaway hired to design a line of competition kits second to none.
>
> Friday, August 4, 2000
>
> Vern Estes gets his old office back. Just because.
>
> All first place event winners at NARAM get a 1/100 Saturn-V. Second place
> winners get 1/100 Saturn IB. Third place winners get Gemini Titans (K21).
> Fourth plae winners get Mercury Redstone (the old Centuri version). DLBF
in
> each event gets an Astron Spaceman! And wait until you see the prizes for
> national champions.
>
> Saturday, August 5th, 2000
>
> Time for me to hire new CEO who has an MBA, a 4 digit NAR#, and a bunch of
> NARAM awards; retire, and head back for Chicago. NARAM-42 really was a lot
> of fun.
>
> {poof}
>
>
> Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # Whitewash
>
> strateg...@hotmail.com FTNC...@aol.com
newy...@cartoonbank.exactis.com
> webm...@global-prosperity.com bre...@mail.anet-chi.com
jes...@earthlink.net
> Blindf...@aol.com postm...@127.0.0.1 pa...@still.zzn.com
aho...@ford.com
> hern...@fill.zzn.com an...@eircom.net u...@ftc.gov k...@net2000.com.au
> lisa...@ntlworld.com to...@cartoonbank.com joel....@welshexec.com
> homewo...@alloymail.com
>
Mark Simpson
It looks like we can't take you anywhere. ;-) I'm glad to hear that you kept
your head and didn't stoop to their level. Who knows, after a civil lawsuit, you
may have your own Extes Company.
Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
Bob Kaplow wrote:
> On Saturday morning, October 21, 2000, at the National Model and Hobby Show
> in Rosemont IL around 9:45 AM, while getting ready to work in the Model
> Rocket Make-It Take-It booth I was physically attacked by Barry Tunick. I
> did not initially recognize him, as I think we'd only met once, maybe 9
> years ago. He had to ask for me. He was not wearing any show or exhibitor
> identification. The booth organizer witnessed Barry strike me, pushing me
> back and almost pushing me over. Most of the rest of the morning staff, and
> many nearby exhibitors witnessed the following verbal assault. Barry
> continued to assault me for maybe one to two minutes. I did nothing in
> response, except tell Barry to go away, and eventually turned and walked
> away myself. Rosemont police were called, and they escorted Barry out of my
> sight.
>
> After the incident I noticed that last year's assaulter, Brian Alleman, was
> nearby, wearing the standard Estes booth polo shirt. I suspect that Barry
> and Brian had planned this incident together to provoke me, with Brian there
> to either act as a false witness and/or to rescue Barry if necessary. There
> was no other reason for Brian to be there, 500' away from the Estes booth. I
> was set up, but their plans backfired as I did nothing to retaliate. As
> Brian had done a year before, Barry repeatedly tried to get me to strike him
> back, or take the matter outside. Others have told me that both Brian and
> Barry had slandered me both at the show, and back in Penrose.
>
> After my shift in the booth ended, I filed a complaint with the hobby show
> office, and Tuesday, October 25th, I filed assault and battery charges with
> the Rosemont Police. The case number is 00-10-547. If Barry ever returns to
> the Chicago area he is subject to arrest.
>
> Since then I've spoken to Peter W Smith and Greg Ward of TCW (the majority
> owners of Estes/Centuri and board members) about the incident. I've also
> been called by reporters. I am following up with the Rosemont police to
> insure that they do not let this incident fall through the cracks.
>
> If ANY ONE has ever heard Barry Tunick, or any one at Estes / Centuri
> threaten me, or even mention my name in any unkind manner, or ever does,
> please contact me with the details. And thanks to all my friends in the
> rocket community who came to my aid that Saturday morning, or have passed on
> their advice or other comments in the past couple weeks.
>
Chris Taylor Jr.
Maybe I will get around to it sometime tommorrow night (work all night
nothnig to do but browse the net and make web pages :-)
"Jim Yanik" <jya...@iag.net> wrote in message
news:8FE1BA034j...@63.211.125.91...
Mark Simpson
Brett Buck wrote:
>
> While you are entitled to your opinion, there is never an excuse for
> this sort of thing. As an officer in a model airplane SIG (PAMPA), I've
> seen arguments that make RMR seem like a mutual admiration society. Even
> though many of the participants have very strong economic interest,
> we've managed to keep from duking it out or getting into altercations
> completely. If one feels they must, yell at each other, let the lawyers
> sort out the resulting slander and libel if any. Fighting, shoving
> matches, whatever, are best left to 8 year olds.
>
> One vitally important issue we should all keep in mind - this is
> about *little toy rockets*. While I enjoy the hobby as much as the next
> guy, nothing that anyone - Kaplow, Cato, Mobley, Tunick - says, pro or
> con, is worth getting into a fight over. Or in this case, going to jail
> over.
Amen. Very well put. This IS a hobby, let's keep in in perspective.
Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 level II
Mark Simpson
Leonard Fehskens wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Nov 2000 11:01:15 -0500, Darrell D. Mobley at ddmo...@uhostme.com
> wrote
>
> >At the risk of being crass and insensitive,
>
> You succeeded. I don't care what anyone says, it's *NEVER* justification
> for physical assault.
Len! We actually agree on something. ;-)
Mark Simpson
Bob Kaplow wrote:
>
>
> I'm a lot nicer in person :-) Some day some PHD sociologist will write a
> paper on internet rage as the electronic analogy of road rage.
>
> Basically, I say what I think, not what someone wants to hear. I'd never
> make it as a politician. Or a CEO. Or a punching bag.
Well, two out of three anyway. >;-)
Mark Simpson
Dan Kirk wrote:
> In article <3A02D950...@austin.rr.com>,
> alex-m...@austin.rr.com wrote:
> > Since there are two sides in every story, and our legal system is
> still based
> > on the assumption of innocence.... Perhaps we should let this play
> out in
> > court instead of RMR.
> >
>
> Perhaps. OTOH, Barry's welcome to post his side of the story here.
> And, IMHO, our legal system tends to favor the party that can afford
> better lawyers.
Tell that to Bill Gates. ;-)
Mark Simpson
Kurt Kesler wrote:
> In article <TrgEMx...@eisner.decus.org>,
> kapl...@eisner.decus.org.mars says...
> > On Saturday morning, October 21, 2000, at the National Model and Hobby Show
> > in Rosemont IL around 9:45 AM, while getting ready to work in the Model
> > Rocket Make-It Take-It booth I was physically attacked by Barry Tunick.
> <snip>
>
> And people worry about TRA "outlaw biker" types...
>
> ;-)
>
> --
> Kurt Kesler
> "Estes...the new bad boys on the block"
Yeah, what do you say about NAR weenies now Bruce? <bg>
Chip Jenkins
>
<snip>
>
> No offense, but I would think that if I had routine run ins with people
> who wanted to kick my ass, I'd start to ask what it was about my
> behavior that caused people to react that way toward me and perhaps
> modify my behavior. Sorry about what happened, Bob, but use this as a
> growth experience to modify those things which incite others to
> violence. You'll be the better man in the end.
> --
Darrell, I read this and at first I thought to myself (Clark Kent?) and
then, I put myself in the senerio that you describe. First, let's make
an assumption. like this one: "As far as I know, I have done nothing to
provoke these people, hmmmmm."
I see what you're basically saying but, in your above statement, you
assume that Bob has done something to deserve a butt-kicking by these
people. This may or may not be the case. Suppose he did nothing to
provoke anyone but, for example, suppose he said something off-color to
someone (don't forget that he may have said or done absolutely nothing)
and it got perverted into something quite the opposite as the original
meaning by being passed on from one person to another and another until
nothing from the original comment is left. Then, the offended one hears
about it and gets irate to such a point that he vows to give Bob a
butt-kicking each and every time he sees Bob. Now, this person is so
angered that he has become irrational and will not listen to reason from
anyone, not even the Rev. Jesse Jackson, Tonya Harding or Jesse "The
Body" Ventura.
I do not know if any of the above is even close to reality and, I'm
guessing that neither do you. If it were me in the above senerio, I
would NOT modify MY behavior because some thoughtless girilla with a
superioity complex deceides to take physical liscense with me because I
may have inadvertantly whizzed in his cheerios one morning.
Now, in my unlikely senerio, I assumed that Bob did nothing wrong at
all. Unless you know some relavent facts that I do not know, would you
modify your behavior? If you did modify it, you would not be a better
man for it, you would be a beaten man with no self respect at all. That
should not be an option.
I certainly mean no offense either to you or Bob or anyone else. I'm
just looking through the glass from the opposite side from which you
are.
Chip
The Silent Observer
>
> Bob Kaplow wrote:
> > ... while getting ready to work in the Model
> > Rocket Make-It Take-It booth I was physically
> > attacked by Barry Tunick.
>
Generally extradition is done only in felony cases -- the expense of the
extradition process suggests that even if it can be legally applied to a
misdemeanor, it won't be. OTOH, this might just crimp future Estes
involvement with RCHTA.
In addition, even in the absence of criminal charges, Bob could file
civil suit in Rosemont; Barry would then (I think -- IANAL) have the
choice of seeing a default judgment entered against him in the civil
suit, or of being arrested on the assault charge on appearing to answer
the civil complaint.
Hmmm...say, Bob, you might ask the DA if conspiracy makes assault and
battery felonies. If so, they might be able to extradite, not just
Barry, but Brian as well. Should be an interesting trial; it's not
every day a CEO comes up on criminal charges unrelated to operation of
his corporation.
--
Some of their knowledge is corrupt, and inaccurate, being gleaned from
all manner of sources. But like us, they are wizards too.
-- Jaldis the Blind
Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer NAR # 70141-SR Insured
Rocket Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/launches.htm
Telescope Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/astronomy.htm
Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.
The Silent Observer
> still based
> > on the assumption of innocence.... Perhaps we should let this play
> out in
> > court instead of RMR.
> >
>
> And, IMHO, our legal system tends to favor the party that can afford
> better lawyers.
Hmmm. Who do you think can afford better lawyers, a deteriorating hobby
conglomerate or the State of Illinois?
Saturn 1B
I have never met you nor have I really took part in these r.m.r. posting
but what I respect and agree of what you wrote.
Aloha
Jim
--
-----------------------------------------------------
Click here for Free Video!!
http://www.gohip.com/free_video/
"Darrell D. Mobley" <ddmo...@uhostme.com> wrote in message
news:3A02E14B...@uhostme.com...
Terry Swift
and parent company....
<snip>
The Silent Observer wrote:
In addition, even in the absence of criminal charges, Bob could file civil
suit in Rosemont; Barry would then (I think -- IANAL) have the choice of
seeing a default judgment entered against him in the civil suit, or of being
arrested on the assault charge on appearing to answer the civil complaint.
<snip>
DesertJedi
the Sr. Management in any multimillion dollar business/industry could be
removed via fisticuffs. Also, maybe an appearance at the stockholders meeting
would be in order...Bob, would you be willing to say something Tysonesque like
"Barry, I'll eat your children" and then splash ketchup on him??? As I read
all of the posts in the string, I laughed, I cried, hell, it is funnier than
"CATS"...and has run almost as long. Thanks for the yuks.....pay forwar...oh,
never mind.
Bob Kaplow
> Or Estes will own a VAX and a bunch of happy meal rockets.. Remember, we've
> only heard the "Bob Centric" version of events. Is there anybody out there who
> saw this all happen and can back up Bob's side? (Probably not....)
There is. You can contact the Rosemont police and ask for the report. It
includes names of witnesses. I'm not going to post their names here.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # Whitewash
strateg...@hotmail.com FTNC...@aol.com newy...@cartoonbank.exactis.com
Bob Kaplow
> out between Estes and Bob, came up to Bob, slapped him on the back and said "Hi
> Bob, I'm Barry", scared Bob, and Bob tripped on something, and Bob then claimed
Hardly the case.
> assault (some time later even to the show officials, in his own words........)
> The Charges filed, are again, only the "Bob Centric" view, and the cops probably
> just said "ok.. we'll write it down", never expecting to hear of Barry again...
>
> I doubt that any exec of a mid size company would "physically attack" Bob, at a
> convention in front of scores of witnesses, or if that had been the case, others
> would have restrained Barry until help arrived. Bob did not tell RMR what he
> said during the "verbal assault", nor what Barry said to him... The fact that
> Bob didn't report it until after his shift had ended, to me, sure says that it
> was a much smaller event than Bob claims it was. Surely one of the many
> witnesses would have called for show security as soon as things got tense, if
> they really did.... This isn't like it happened in a dark alley..
One person was on a cell phone calling for help, 911 I presume. others were
getting security folks to come over. Just about every NIRA member in the
booth Saturday morning saw most of what happened. So did several exhibitors.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # Whitewash
strateg...@hotmail.com FTNC...@aol.com newy...@cartoonbank.exactis.com
Mark Daughtry, SR
Ya know Bob.....When I was in line at NSL 99 waiting for you to RSO my
Gigantic Beth X-2 I thought I might have to ask you to step out benind the
port-a-potties if you didn't pass it. I mean what the heck....I was only
trying to light one BP and two AP motors in the booster at the same time.
<levity mode off>
Really I did expect to have to do a whole bunch of talking and possibly
getting a club member or two to attest to the fact that I had done this a
couple of times already. But you seemed very open minded when I stated to
you that I had done this before (It was a helluva flight, wasn't it?).
From all that I have read on this thread, it seems to me that you *have*
shown a little restraint with the time lapse of the incident happening and
your posting of the "event". I have read a lot of your posts in the past and
find you to be a man of integrity (allbeit a bit abrasive at times). If Mr.
Tunick is a man of integrity, I would hope that he would post a response to
your report. But in all fairness, I don't think it's gonna happen. Just let
us know when you move into the president's office at Estes. I'll raise a few
drinks of the finest grog I can get my hands on to you.
Regards,
Mark Daughtry, SR
NAR 71556 L1
MSRS 0035
dornblaser
Bob is not a real grouch in person, he is anything but. I have found him to
be personable, humorous, knowledgeable and willing to help anyone enter our
sport. Some may consider his posts opinionated and pointed but if you read
them all you will find a man with a real zeal for our hobby. There is a
bigger picture here: How many of us would have our jobs if we went to a
trade show and was arrested for committing a battery to a customer?
Dismissal would be swift and well in advance of a criminal trial. RMR holds
Estes up to the leader in the model rocket hobby. If they deserve to
maintain that position then there must be consequences for such an egregious
action at a trade show. At a time when many question the long term
viability of our hobby, is this the action one would expect from the main
spokesperson from the pre-eminent vendor? I think not. I am glad that the
press did not publish this in the papers at a time when we should be
attracting new hobbists.
I suggest that there be accountability. I suggest that the copies of all
the posts expressing concern and outrage over this incident be mailed to the
current ownership of Estes. Rather than let our voices not be heard, let's
make an effort so that Estes really knows what the hobby is thinking. It is
not enough to voice our thoughts here if no one but us is listening.
David Dornblaser
Dornb...@msn.com
<daz...@grin.net> wrote in message news:8tv6n1$tdh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> "Darrell D. Mobley" <ddmo...@uhostme.com> wrote:
> > Again, I also did not say Tunick was justified -- but there must be a
> > reason.
> > ...
> > I can't say the same for Bob -- he
> > has a methodology of insulting people that make them want to poke his
> > lights out -- and THAT'S the reason.
>
> Can't say that I've noticed here on r.m.r - but then I've only been
> reading the newsgroup for about 6 months or so. Deja.com only goes
> back to last year... has he mellowed lately, or is he a real grouch
> in person, or something like that?
>
> - - --- - --- - -
>
> When I first restarted rocketry last April (after being away from the
> hobby for Far Too Long... I've got a LOT of history to catch
> up on, it seems) and found a (somewhat) local hobby shop that
> had rocket stuff, I looked through the Estes kits on sale and
> thought, "gee, they sure aren't what they used to be, are they?"
>
> About the only current Estes product I'd have any interest
> in is the engines themselves... and stories like this make me think
> of switching brands:
> What's the legal situation with ordering Apogee "Medalist" composite
> engines online for delivery here in California? (I know the BP "micro"
> series isn't CSFM-classified.) Is this OK, or would there be issues
> with respect to the need to go through a "licensed importer"? I also
> note that RocketSilo has Quest motors...
>
> -dave w
Quilly Mammoth
Quest and others will fill the breech.It willactually make then
stronger. If the old line Estes engines were so stinkin' good why
aren't they made? Not enough buyers!
People act like business has some sort of covenent to provide our
needs. They don't, and we don't have to buy from them.
As for buying. Er... the internet!!
Christ, that's where you hope to sell _YOUR_ line.
Wah... freaking ... wah
In article <ryHM5.14811$rl.12...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
"Chris Taylor Jr." <nos...@nerys.com> wrote:
> Becasue they are (effectively) the only game in town most of the time.
>
> IE I can go to walmart hobby store etc.. and buy estes. I can just
now
> start getting a VERY limited supply of quest and a teeny teeny tiny
bit of
> Holverson and Custom
>
> Public Missle is not an option for me cause it just costs to much Not
so
> much for the rocket but for the motors to fly in them.
>
> Estes is the company you hate but can not live without. the hobby
rocketry
> industry would be effectively eliminated without estes no matter what
> anybody says.
>
> Most importantly the MOTORS sure others make motors but not at a
buck a pop
> not even close.
>
> Even estes waining (not possible reviving) kti line is the
most "popular"
> cause it is availble to the average person.
>
> Rocket Vision is GREAT and I do plan to own every single one of there
models
> but they are also Extremely expensive.
>
> Quest makes motor at almost the same cost but only 3 kinds or so.
>
> Apogee has a plethora of motors but they are expensive and
specialized and
> limited when used is mass heavy rockets they we usually fly
(optimized for
> long burn competition flights)
>
> I do not even fly a lot of aerotech simply because of the cost per
flight.
> (although some are well worth it for example RC glider flights etc..)
>
> The fact that estes has such a strangle hold on the hobby rocketry
industry
> is what makes it so hard To talk nice about them :-) Even if another
> company got into the distribution channels (yeah right) with a new
engine
> etc.. All estes has to do is crank up there mables for 1 days
production of
> a competing engine and put them out of buisness.
>
> Even kits from other manufacturers are hurt if and when estes kills
the
> engine that that kit needs !!!
>
> My nanorocketry is gone if quest kills the MMaxx engine. I hope
eventually
> that others companies will make engines in the same 6mm size
category. (here
> me estes and apogee :-) but it would likely not be profitable for
someone
> like apogee or aerotech and not logical for someone like Estes.
>
> Chris
> http://www.nerys.com/
>
> <conno...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8tve9q$4d2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > This is interesting. From what I've read, todays Estes is almost
> > universally reviled among rocketeers. Why is it then that launch
> > reports and personal websites show fifty to one Estes rockets? I'm
not
> > talking about newbies, but rather multi-year participants in the
hobby
> > who actively post their anti-Estes sentiments on RMR. Why do people
> > continue to support a company that is led by a man who shoves people
> > physically around, does illegal restraint of trade, and has
> > demonstrated that it doesn't give a damn about it's customers?
> >
> > I can say with some pride that I've not flown an Estes rocket in
many
> > years, prefering to give my trade to Public Missiles, Aerotech,
> > Rocketvision and LOC/Precision - companies that are actively
committed
> > to the hobby, not hamstringing it.
> >
> > Why do people who complain about Estes so much continue to support
the
> > company with their dollars?
> >
> > - Connor
L.C.
got a tour of Estes Industries during NARAM 42. (He
called Mr Tunick and asked.) Art wrote a nice article
about the tour in our newsletter. In it, he made vague
reference to ill feelings between Estes and the NAR
and between Estes and RMR. Someone at Estes told
me in paranoid tones that Estes monitors this news group,
and the paranoia was so thick and generalized, it scuttled
my NARAM 41 R&D project.
Frankly, I have no idea what the hell is going on, but
people are taking these "little toy rockets" *very*
seriously.
-Larry (Bigger fish to fry) C.
"Darrell D. Mobley" wrote:
> Leonard Fehskens wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 03 Nov 2000 11:01:15 -0500, Darrell D. Mobley at ddmo...@uhostme.com
> > wrote
> >
> > >At the risk of being crass and insensitive,
> >
> > You succeeded. I don't care what anyone says, it's *NEVER* justification
> > for physical assault.
>
> Again, I also did not say Tunick was justified -- but there must be a
> reason. Look, I don't know you from Adam, but I don't have any
> ill-harbored feeling toward you. I can't say the same for Bob -- he has
> a methodology of insulting people that make them want to poke his lights
> out -- and THAT'S the reason. Modify that behavior and the reason goes
> away.
Dan Kirk
The Silent Observer <sil...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Hmmm. Who do you think can afford better lawyers, a deteriorating
hobby
> conglomerate or the State of Illinois?
The real question is, Who has more at stake in the case?
Art Fuldodger
> Art Nestor, an officer in the Pittsburgh Space Command,
> got a tour of Estes Industries during NARAM 42. (He
> called Mr Tunick and asked.) Art wrote a nice article
> about the tour in our newsletter. In it, he made vague
> reference to ill feelings between Estes and the NAR
> and between Estes and RMR. Someone at Estes told
> me in paranoid tones that Estes monitors this news group,
> and the paranoia was so thick and generalized, it scuttled
> my NARAM 41 R&D project.
If that's true, what a sad misunderstanding on the part of those
at Estes.
#1. Sometimes your biggest fans are your worst critics
(take for example, any professional sports team... it's
the fans who are always complaining the loudest about
the team, its management, owner, etc., but..... don't forget
that they're the ones who buy the tickets!)
#2. When everyone else around you is criticizing your behavior,
perhaps it's time for you to get introspective, stop dismissing
the critics, and LISTEN. Maybe they're right.
#3. "RMR" is not a monolithic bloc, and it's a very small slice of the
entire population of those participating in the hobby. For
Estes to "snub" the entire rocketry community, like they did
at this year's NARAM, just because they didn't like what a
small number of people said, is petty and self-defeating.
#4. Lastly, I think Estes needs to re-think their attitude towards
rocketry, and view this for what it is, a HOBBY, not a TOY BIZ.
In the long run, most of their sales are going to go to REPEAT
customers, those of us that get hooked on the hobby. We're in
it for the long haul, and if all you manufacture is RTF toys, you're
not going to hold our interest for long, the RTF junk is going to
start backing up in the stores, and some other manufacturer will
fill the demand for the kits. And since most of us are adults and
often provide recommendations and guidance to kids (and others)
just starting out in the hobby, the products that we use will be the
ones we'll be recommending to them.
I think Estes has shown by their recent re-introduction of some
models, that they understand this, or at least that they're listening
a little. I hope they keep it up, and recognize where their long-term
customer base is.
Now, if I can make a suggestion to Estes - thanks for the V-2 re-release,
but can you look into laser-cut fins? The dies are getting old, and it's
showing (the balsa looked CRUSHED, not cut). If little companies like
Holverson can have their balsa laser-cut, so can you.
Woody Miller
--
Woody Miller
NAR 74701 Sr L2
SSS
EARS
----------------------------------------------------------------
Alpha 40 Project website: http://www.users.uswest.net/~woody8
Superstition Spacemodeling Society: http://www.sssrocketry.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------
Mark B. Bundick
wrote:
>Art Nestor, an officer in the Pittsburgh Space Command,
>got a tour of Estes Industries during NARAM 42. (He
>called Mr Tunick and asked.) Art wrote a nice article
>about the tour in our newsletter. In it, he made vague
>reference to ill feelings between Estes and the NAR
I'm not aware of any such "ill feelings". My relations with Estes and
its management have always been completely professional and cordial.
I can assest to similar interactions with other NAR Board and
Committee members.
============================================================================
Mark B. Bundick 1350 Lilac Lane !mbundick-at-nospam-earthlink-dot-net!
NAR President Carol Stream, IL 60188 http://www.nar.org
Mark B. Bundick
>Also, maybe an appearance at the stockholders meeting
The company is privately held, so even if there's a stockholder's
meeting, you couldn't get access because you can't buy the stock.
Mario Perdue
<dornb...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>Dear Dave W. & RMR,
>
>Bob is not a real grouch in person, he is anything but. [snip]
I've got to agree with you on this. When I got back into the hobby and
went to all the launches in Muncie I got to meet a lot of you guys.
Bob was one of the friendliest and most helpful of the group.
Mario Perdue
NAR #22012 Sr. L2
http://www.L4software.com/amorea
"X-ray-Delta-One, this is Mission Control, two-one-five-six, transmission concluded."
Bob Kaplow
> Just let
> us know when you move into the president's office at Estes. I'll raise a few
> drinks of the finest grog I can get my hands on to you.
Forget it! If it ever gets that far, ***I'M BUYING!*** It'll be the biggest
rocket party on record. B14's for everybody!
Mike Lee Kochel
>charges in order to get into an altercation with him.
Oh, no one wants to hurt Bob, cause all of NIRA would take em out. Except that
pacifist posing as a NAR prez.....
>Bob has certainly
>invoked that feeling here in r.m.r with others,
Well if he gives you a blue tube of old neat 1/4A 18mm long motors, that will
ease the hostility.
>I would certainly never seek to escalate my anger toward Bob to
>physical violence and don't condone anyone else doing so
Except the winner gets a bunch of cool stuff but a black eye as well. Do ya
feel lucky, punk? Well, do ya?? 8*)
> "Bob, what is it that you have done to make Barry come
>after you like this?"
1/ Called him a Bean Counter(tm). Same as if someone called me AstronMike the
Impaler after certain flights.
2/ Keeps misspelling and not capping said proper name, thereby adding insult
to injury. But hes dyslexic so thats excused.
3/ Has more good old Astron stuff than either Estes, AstronMike, or anyone
else. Kind of a Freudian envy we think....
4/ Brian Alleman is smaller than Bob Kaplow, so he cant 'do it'.
5/ Bob added tail wt to all the Episode One stuff to make it look like Estes
fault. Same goes for all the clay NOT found in those starter sets. Guess whos
got all that clay trimming convie gliders?!
6/ Barry Tunick is really Bruce Kelly, so that *really* explains it all.
7/ Bob was wearing a nonRMR Tshirt at thw show saying 'Pleaze send bArrY ToOniK
to MaRz in a biG umGawAH plAstIk rTf rOkiT'.
>major toy company
Please define 'major' 8^(
>wouldn't just arbitrarily pick Bob out of the crowd to harrass,
Its done here on RMR so its just another rite of passage. Its Bob harrassing
you back Id be concerned about....
>I had routine run ins with people
>who wanted to kick my ass,
Id kick thiers first. Another reason to always carry two loaded weapons with
you! (semi serious there)
> perhaps
>modify my behavior.
Will happen when Catos posts do NOT contain *** """" '''' @@@ et al.
Brett Buck
>
> They are "illegal pyrotechnic devices" if they are not classified by the
> CSFM. There may be different penalties associated with each of the
> following:
> possession
> storage
> importing
> selling
> discharging (using, flying, burning....)
I think there may be some confusion here.
The Apogee "Medalist" Composite motors (as referred to in the initial
post) are currently legal to use in CA. They are made by Tim at Aerotech
and are classified on their ticket (just like Rocketvision and the news
ones by someone I forget).
The Apogee 10.5 MM BP Micro-motors ARE NOT currently legel to use in
CA. Whichever mystery supplier makes them apparently does not have a
manufacturer's blanket certifications
> http://www.fireworks-safety.com/plate.main/firemarshal/64pages.html
>
> I still hope they get CSFM classified, as we have quite a few people who
> want to hold NAR competitions (and fly them for *FUN*).
>
> How about a CSFM "warchest" or even a California surcharge to get it done?
I've asked abou this and suggested to Tim that those of us
interested do just this - take up some collection to get at least the
more interesting of the motors classified. As has been mentioned many
times, it's not cheap! He said that he was trying to get small business
relief to reduce the fees. In the future, it may happen.
Brett
Dave Lyle
>
> On Sat, 04 Nov 2000 12:30:37 GMT, "L.C." <lcu...@bellatlantic.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Art Nestor, an officer in the Pittsburgh Space Command,
> >got a tour of Estes Industries during NARAM 42. (He
> >called Mr Tunick and asked.) Art wrote a nice article
> >about the tour in our newsletter. In it, he made vague
> >reference to ill feelings between Estes and the NAR
>
> I'm not aware of any such "ill feelings". My relations with Estes and
> its management have always been completely professional and cordial.
> I can assest to similar interactions with other NAR Board and
> Committee members.
Bunny, can you speak to why Estes did apparently totally snub NARAM42?
Dave
Mark B. Bundick
wrote:
>Bunny, can you speak to why Estes did apparently totally snub NARAM42?
Nope, don't have any information on the subjec. In fact, I don't have
any feedback whatsoever as to why Estes or any other manufacturer for
that matter, chose to support or not support NARAM-42.
My thanks to all the sport rocket companies who did support the
Estesland NARAM. It was a great event, made better by the
participation of an active manufacturing community.
David Weinshenker
> The Apogee "Medalist" Composite motors
> (as referred to in the initial post)
Yes, those were the ones I was asking about...
it looks like Apogee and Quest have some
alternatives in the D-and-down range (if
one wanted to stop using Estes...)
-dave w
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Jeff Cowles
years ago is the Mini Marz Lander. I still fly my Prowler, Mongoose, and the
Skywinder on occasion, but aside from the Mini Marz Lander (not counting the
pack of D12-5s and the pack of 1/4A-Ts) I have not bought Estes. Most of the
Kits I've got are Quest, Vaughn Bros, LP, LOC, or are scratch built older
Estes OOP models.
However... When the new reissues come out I will buy a Redstone, Phoenix,
and a Black Brant II. If they decide to keep bringing back the cool kits I
might take back everything bad I've said about them.
And if anyone at Estes wants to come after me I'll be at Clegg Sod Farm in
Bunnel, FL on Dec 2nd... Bring motors. ;-)
--
Jeff
NEFAR MEMBER
NAR# 78230
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/jgs321/
<conno...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8tve9q$4d2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> This is interesting. From what I've read, todays Estes is almost
> universally reviled among rocketeers. Why is it then that launch
> reports and personal websites show fifty to one Estes rockets? I'm not
> talking about newbies, but rather multi-year participants in the hobby
> who actively post their anti-Estes sentiments on RMR. Why do people
> continue to support a company that is led by a man who shoves people
> physically around, does illegal restraint of trade, and has
> demonstrated that it doesn't give a damn about it's customers?
>
> I can say with some pride that I've not flown an Estes rocket in many
> years, prefering to give my trade to Public Missiles, Aerotech,
> Rocketvision and LOC/Precision - companies that are actively committed
> to the hobby, not hamstringing it.
>
> Why do people who complain about Estes so much continue to support the
> company with their dollars?
>
> - Connor
>
>
The Silent Observer
it's against Tunick personally (you'd have to prove he was ordered to
punch Kaplow by the Estes BOD to get damages from the corporation, I'd
think -- though once again, IANAL).
The Silent Observer
>
> In article <3A0380AB...@ix.netcom.com>,
> The Silent Observer <sil...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> hobby
> > conglomerate or the State of Illinois?
>
But then there's another one: will Estes stand behind Tunick on this, or
are they about to hang him out to dry? One can hope for the latter, but
it probably strongly depends on how much Estes stock Tunick owns. B(
Kevin Trojanowski
>
> Wouldn't help -- this isn't a suit against Estes or the holding company,
> it's against Tunick personally (you'd have to prove he was ordered to
> punch Kaplow by the Estes BOD to get damages from the corporation, I'd
> think -- though once again, IANAL).
Keep in mind, however, that he was at the show in the capacity of his
Estes employment. Thus the company probably carries some liability for
his actions.
-Kevin
David Ambrose
Mike Hellmund wrote:
>
> <conno...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8tve9q$4d2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> > My opinion is you can remove the top
> management of Estes and there would be no change, perhaps even an
> improvement, on their status as a company.
This is true of most companies. :-S
Alan Jones
wrote:
>> but wonder why someone would want to face criminal
>>charges in order to get into an altercation with him.
>
>Oh, no one wants to hurt Bob, cause all of NIRA would take em out. Except that
>pacifist posing as a NAR prez.....
Oh, I don't know.... It could just be damming faint praise. Bunny
can be quite fiery when he wants to be.
Alan Jones
Mark Simpson
Muncie. I appreciate Bob's frankness and his cut-to-the-chase manner. If Tunick worked
for my company, he'd be standing in the unemployment line already.
Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 level II
Mario Perdue wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Nov 2000 00:20:56 -0800, "dornblaser"
> <dornb...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>
> >Dear Dave W. & RMR,
> >
Mark Simpson
Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 Level II
Mark Simpson
The difference between the OJ trial and Gates' is that the "jury" in Gates'
trial could count past 5.
Mark Simpson
NAR 71503 level II
Tom Binford wrote:
> "Mark Simpson" <mark.s...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:3A0359D1...@home.com...
> > > Perhaps. OTOH, Barry's welcome to post his side of the story here.
> > > And, IMHO, our legal system tends to favor the party that can afford
> > > better lawyers.
> >
> > Tell that to Bill Gates. ;-)
>
> Ask OJ :-)
>
> Tom
Mario Perdue
wrote:
>IIRC, Bob pulled a heck of a lot of Safety Check-in duty on some darn hot days down in
>Muncie. I appreciate Bob's frankness and his cut-to-the-chase manner. If Tunick worked
>for my company, he'd be standing in the unemployment line already.
Yes he did. I learned a lot at the check-in table. Thanks Bob.
Sams Family
> Bunny, can you speak to why Estes did apparently
> totally snub NARAM42?
Mark Bundick wrote:
> Nope, don't have any information on the subject. In
> fact, I don't have any feedback whatsoever as to why
> Estes or any other manufacturer for that matter, chose
> to support or not support NARAM-42.
Mark Simpson wrote:
> Spoken like a true politician. ;-)
Mark,
What did you expect him to say? I see the smiley face, so I know you were needling
him, but it's still critical of his statement.
He is the NAR president and as such, I expect him to be tactful. You and others may
see it as being *slick* ala a politician, but he is the elected leader of an
organization whose members expect some diplomacy, and the hobby stands to lose much if
he were to be tactlessly blunt.
Frankly, *my* interpretation is that he made a carefully crafted slam:
"Nope, don't have any information on the subject."
I assume the NAR sent an invitation to Estes on NAR letterhead and no response was
received.
Again, that is *my* interpretation.
The fact that Estes did not participate at NARAM in *Estes*land, CO speaks volumes.
Does the NAR prez need to (publicly) say anything at all? No.
---
Come on down to NARCON in the spring and buy Bunny a beer. Maybe he'll let us know a
little more in a private conversation.
Regards,
Doug Sams