Setting Expo on 9Z (3servo120 deg CCPM)
Martin.Armitstead
Does anyone know how to set negative expo on the Futaba 9Z with a
CCPM setup.I had thought about setting -30% EXPN1 in AFR for CH1,CH2 and
CH6.This would introduce some expo around collective neutral,centre
stick (0 deg) which i don't mind .But when checking the servo graphical
display for elevator and aileron action it is difficult to tell if this
will screw up the tx's "electronic" mix ratios and cause more unwanted
interaction.Basically my question is, if i set an AFR on only ch1&ch2
for example ,is the radio smart enough to still apply some new modified
movement ratios to all 3 servo's to compensate.Has anyone used cyclic
expo's using the 9Z with CCPM.
Thanks,
Martin.
Rc chopper
In article <3552F4...@Compuserve.com>, "Martin.Armitstead"
<MArmi...@Compuserve.com> writes:
>.Basically my question is, if i set an AFR on only ch1&ch2
>for example ,is the radio smart enough to still apply some new modified
>movement ratios to all 3 servo's to compensate.Has anyone used cyclic
>expo's using the 9Z with CCPM.
I am not sure what you mean by "new modified movement ratios" and I am not
using CCPM. But, If you have the SWH settings (you need SR-3 or SN-3) set
correct then any expo you set up for cyclic will be applied to all three
servos. You could, but I wouldn't add expo to channel 6, use the collective
curve to smooth it out around center if you want to. Hope this helps
Chuck
Chuck
Rc Cho...@AOL.com :-)
I'd rather be flyin.
Nick M.V.Salmon
"Martin.Armitstead" <MArmi...@Compuserve.com> wrote;
>.Basically my question is, if i set an AFR on only ch1&ch2
>for example ,is the radio smart enough to still apply some new modified
>movement ratios to all 3 servo's to compensate.Has anyone used cyclic
>expo's using the 9Z with CCPM.
Hey Martin
Dunno about Futaba 9Z but JR 10SX is OK... The only things that still
apply to the single servo channels are ATVs, or travel volumes, which
you can use to kill any small interaction remaining at full deflections
due to geometry... The overall roll cyclic, pitching cyclic and collective
travel volumes are set in 'swash', code 65... Multiple rates and expo's
are applied to all three servos... I'd have thought Futaba would do
something similar..?
Why not 'suck it and see'; You should be able to see the swashplate
moving incorrectly when you move the stick if 'expo' is only applied
to a single servo rather than all three. ie. some unwanted change in
collective pitch when you move the pitching cyclic stick alone on the
Tx...
(For 10SX afficionados; Code 65 'swash' 'EXPO' is overall exponetial
travel of all three servos which maximises servo movement and, at
least partially, gets rid of non-linear travel with ECCPM, neat..!)
Ciao...
Nick...
--
Nick M.V.Salmon. Southwest UK.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
R&D on MH Design's Extant Helicopters
&
Competition Flying.
Web Pages: http://www.ftech.net/~nick
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Martin.Armitstead
Rc chopper wrote:
>
> In article <3552F4...@Compuserve.com>, "Martin.Armitstead"
> <MArmi...@Compuserve.com> writes:
>
> >for example ,is the radio smart enough to still apply some new modified
> >movement ratios to all 3 servo's to compensate.Has anyone used cyclic
> >expo's using the 9Z with CCPM.
>
> using CCPM. But, If you have the SWH settings (you need SR-3 or SN-3) set
> correct then any expo you set up for cyclic will be applied to all three
> servos. You could, but I wouldn't add expo to channel 6, use the collective
> curve to smooth it out around center if you want to. Hope this helps
> Chuck
> Chuck
> Rc Cho...@AOL.com :-)
> I'd rather be flyin.
Chuck,
thanks for the reply. Adding expo to channel 6 was only going to
be an option if the radio couldn't alter the servo movement to
compensate for 120ccpm when an exp on CH1 and CH2 only had been set.I
have my doubts that it WILL compensate because the AFR's work on a "per
channel basis".When 120 deg ccpm is selected a new set of % values
appear for setting roll,elevator and collective,all in one
menu,why?.This suggests that any "per channel" stuff like expo that's
part of an AFR menu ,when set for only ch1 for instance may not continue
to mix properly ie the ch1 gets the expo (softened centre response) ,but
ch2 and ch6 won't.
Martin.
Martin.Armitstead
Nick M.V.Salmon wrote:
> Hey Martin
>
> Dunno about Futaba 9Z but JR 10SX is OK... The only things that still
>
> apply to the single servo channels are ATVs, or travel volumes, which
> you can use to kill any small interaction remaining at full
> deflections
> due to geometry... The overall roll cyclic, pitching cyclic and
> collective
> travel volumes are set in 'swash', code 65... Multiple rates and
> expo's
> are applied to all three servos... I'd have thought Futaba would do
> something similar..?
>
> Why not 'suck it and see'; You should be able to see the swashplate
> moving incorrectly when you move the stick if 'expo' is only applied
> to a single servo rather than all three. ie. some unwanted change in
> collective pitch when you move the pitching cyclic stick alone on the
> Tx...
>
Nick,
To be honest when i was experimenting/contemplating setting
the expo i didn't have the model switched on to note the swash/servo
movements .I was looking at the graphical display for the servos,the
atv's on ch1,2,6 were all setup identical.As an experiment i set -30%
expo on channel 1 only and then looked at the graph display.With the
collective stick set roughly halfway in idle-up2,so that all 3 servo
channels were smack on the centre line of the graph (servo arms 90 deg
to their cases) i then moved the roll stick and it looked like it was
showing expo alright on ch1 but ch6 looked unaffected.
Anyway the whole thing doesn't matter right now as i'm unloading
the model (when someone buys it) .I can't do any "real model" testing
now because the F1 is currently hanging up in the model shop.When i have
some time i'll try 3 servo's+arms ,setup some expo on 2 channels and see
if it goes wrong when collective is changed.I hope the 9Z does sort
things out expo wise,but it didn't appear to when i tried it,i didn't
try dual rates though,they could be ok.
Martin.
Marco Cantoni
ATV: works only on a single servo channel (1,2,3,....) just before the signal is transmitted. You
can try to imagine it like a individual servo travel amplifier directly in the servo cable. This
means it is at the very end of the mixing chain and therefore works also proportional on all the
mixers activated on a single servo channel. If you reduce (or increase) ATV of only 1 of the 3 CCPM
servos then you are in big trouble. Set the ATVs of all CCPM servos to the same values !
AFR: Defines the stick characteristics of a function (elevator, aileron or pitch). It acts like you
were moving the stick only a fraction of its way (or more) or it makes the stick less aggressive
around the center (using negative exponential). This means for 120-CCPM that all servos ( 3 for the
pitch and elevator function, 2 for the aileron function) will get the modified function input from
the stick. This way you can fine tune the reaction of your heli to your stick control.
I hope this hels a little to avoid confusion about ATV and AFR.
(My experience tells me that 90% of fixed wing pilots think ATV and AFR are essentially the same,
for heli pilots the percentage is slightly lower ;-) )
regards
Marco
Martin.Armitstead
Marco Cantoni wrote:
> AFR: Defines the stick characteristics of a function (elevator, aileron or pitch). It acts like you
> were moving the stick only a fraction of its way (or more) or it makes the stick less aggressive
> around the center (using negative exponential). This means for 120-CCPM that all servos ( 3 for the
> pitch and elevator function, 2 for the aileron function) will get the modified function input from
> the stick. This way you can fine tune the reaction of your heli to your stick control.
Hello Marco,
I know this is how AFR is supposed to work,but in the case
of the 9Z with 120deg CCPM enabled,i'm not convinced it is doing this as
it should,it "appears" that the expo is staying only with the channel it
refers to(as it would do normally with a 1 servo,1 function setup) but
i could be wrong as i was only observing the centre response on the
graphical display of the 2 servo channels used to achieve roll.I setup
-30% expo in AFR for ch1 only which normally modifies the stick response
for roll,but the other servo (channel) used in a pure roll command under
CCPM did not appear to have it's neutral response modified too.
Martin.
Martin.Armitstead
Sorry for the confusion,
i've just tried the test again exactly as i described above and
the AFR does now work as expected,i must have got it wrong somehow when
i tried the first time around.
Martin.
Beavis
In article <356AB8...@Compuserve.com>, Martin.Armitstead
<MArmi...@Compuserve.com> writes
>Marco Cantoni wrote:
>
>> AFR: Defines the stick characteristics of a function (elevator, aileron or
>pitch). It acts like you
>> were moving the stick only a fraction of its way (or more) or it makes the
>stick less aggressive
>> around the center (using negative exponential). This means for 120-CCPM that
>all servos ( 3 for the
>> pitch and elevator function, 2 for the aileron function) will get the
>modified
>function input from
>> the stick. This way you can fine tune the reaction of your heli to your stick
>control.
>
>Hello Marco,
> I know this is how AFR is supposed to work,but in the case
>of the 9Z with 120deg CCPM enabled,i'm not convinced it is doing this as
>it should,it "appears" that the expo is staying only with the channel it
>refers to(as it would do normally with a 1 servo,1 function setup) but
>i could be wrong as i was only observing the centre response on the
>graphical display of the 2 servo channels used to achieve roll.I setup
>-30% expo in AFR for ch1 only which normally modifies the stick response
>for roll,but the other servo (channel) used in a pure roll command under
>CCPM did not appear to have it's neutral response modified too.
>
>
> Martin.
Hi Martin
I don't have, nor have I nay experience with the 9Z but Futaba over the
years have done some REALLY stupid programming which defies logic, so
maybe you're right. An example:-
With the early PCM sets they included an invert switch. Trouble was it
only inverted the STICKS and not the TRIMS. This was a brilliant way to
kill a heli. Roll (or loop) to inverted with a touch of forward trim for
"normal" flying and the heli instantly stopped dead in it's tracks due
to the trim now being arse about face.
The "trick" was to pull a dollop of back stick in as you flipped the
switch and then fight to regain control as the heli either tried to
climp or dive (you never knew exactly what it'd do til it did it).
In the end it was easier to learn switchless.
The same thing with the tail rotor. Trim anywhere but in the centre and
when the invert switch was flipped, it doubled the "out of trim" you had
prior to switch flipping. (or flipping switch)
So maybe you're not a mile off when you think they "blew it" yet again,
although I fly a Futaba/Robbe FC28 and with 120 deg CCPM all the
functions function normally including AFR's/Expo's and I don't get any
kind of interaction or unexpectedisities:-)
Beav
--
E-mail me (if you want to) at
Beavis AT nachos dot Demon dot co dot uk
Martin.Armitstead
Beavis wrote:
> So maybe you're not a mile off when you think they "blew it" yet
> again,
> although I fly a Futaba/Robbe FC28 and with 120 deg CCPM all the
> functions function normally including AFR's/Expo's and I don't get any
>
> kind of interaction or unexpectedisities:-)
>
> Beav
>
Beav, I can imagine how difficult it must have been with the trims
reversing(on the older Futaba set),at least you'd have already got some
practise of having 3 reversed controls,even if only trims,for the
switchless stuff :-)
It would seem that i was "gobshiting" or should that be
"shite-writing" about the EXPO not working properly,dunno what i was
doing wrong,but when i tried some expo in ch1's AFR screen ,it
definately showed expo being applied to the other servo used in a pure
roll command,however i didn't re-check the elevator or collective stick
actions though to see if all was still ok.
Do you know why my news server sometimes complains with a message "more
included text than posted",this is the reason why i sometimes have to
snip a lot of the original posters message away.Funny thing is,it
doesn't always complain with this message.
Beavis
In article <356BD450...@Compuserve.com>, Martin.Armitstead
<MArmi...@Compuserve.com> writes
>>
>
>Beav, I can imagine how difficult it must have been with the trims
>reversing(on the older Futaba set),at least you'd have already got some
>practise of having 3 reversed controls,even if only trims,for the
>switchless stuff :-)
It's a nightmare practising stuff you don't know how to do, and even
more so when you're fighting to fly at the same time.
>
> It would seem that i was "gobshiting" or should that be
>"shite-writing" about the EXPO not working properly,dunno what i was
>doing wrong,but when i tried some expo in ch1's AFR screen ,it
>definately showed expo being applied to the other servo used in a pure
>roll command,however i didn't re-check the elevator or collective stick
>actions though to see if all was still ok.
Can't see t'wood fo' trees. I do it all the time, especially with
radio's I'm "familiar" with. If ever I get to do a set-up with a new (to
me) radio, I usually read the book first, but not with one I've used
before. That's were the problems lie. You get the idea you "know" the
radio so don't bother reading anymore, when in reality, there HAS to be
stuff you've either forgotten or never learned in the first place.
>
>Do you know why my news server sometimes complains with a message "more
>included text than posted",this is the reason why i sometimes have to
>snip a lot of the original posters message away.Funny thing is,it
>doesn't always complain with this message.
I think you must have your newserver set to a low "line limit"
In the mail preferences (I think it is, I know it's not the FEMAIL
preferences anyway:-) it's possible to set a limit to the size of file
it will download. This is normally used to "filter out" binary flies but
if a text file exceeds the limit you've set (or its default) you'll only
get part of the file.
I have mine set at 500 lines and there's only been one or two of Nick's
:-) posts "chopped". (Well you know Nick:-)
Have a look and let me know.
Beav
Marco Cantoni
Hi Martin, hi Beavis,
I checked my 9Z out: Despite the suspicion of Beavis Futaba didn't "blow it" this time and the
exponential works correctly on the function (and on all involved servos).
But Beavis is right there are some minor bugs in the software (which leaves them some space to
improve).
Be aware that Futaba CCPM is not JR-CCPM and you will have some cross-talk between Aileron, Elevator
and Pitch in the high and low pitch region.
I love my 9Z (I used Graupner mc-18/20 and Futaba FC28v1/v2 before) but I am looking forward to get
a PCM10X to check it out and try the JR-CCPM (JR has now almost every ERGO version also in CCPM
available...).
Fortunately the bugs in the inverted program didn't encourage people to cheat :-)))
Cheers
Marco
Martin.Armitstead
> Beavis wrote:
>
>
> > I think you must have your newserver set to a low "line limit"
>
> Thanks ,it sounds like it could be that's the problem,time will tell.
>
> >
> >
> > In the mail preferences (I think it is, I know it's not the FEMAIL
> > preferences anyway:-) it's possible to set a limit to the size of
> file
> >
> > it will download. This is normally used to "filter out" binary flies
>
> > but
> > if a text file exceeds the limit you've set (or its default) you'll
> > only
> > get part of the file.
>
Beav,
This is a snippet from the last message that the server or
Netscape also refused to send at first,i've found that if i delete some
of the > from the left hand margin it sends ok,so it's looking at the
number of > 's and if it see's too many it says f**k you i aint sending
that :-)
Martin
Martin.Armitstead
Beavis wrote:
> In article <356BD450...@Compuserve.com>, Martin.Armitstead
> <MArmi...@Compuserve.com> writes
>>
Beav, I can imagine how difficult it must have been with the trims
reversing(on the older Futaba set),at least you'd have already got
some
practise of having 3 reversed controls,even if only trims,for the
switchless stuff :-)
<<<
It's a nightmare practising stuff you don't know how to do, and even
more so when you're fighting to fly at the same time.
>>>
I remember when i started switchless inverted having great difficulty
dealing with an out of trim tail that would cause a slow pirouhette (in
the hover)when i got the thing inverted and that was only one control.
> >
> > It would seem that i was "gobshiting" or should that be
> >"shite-writing" about the EXPO not working properly,dunno what i was
doing wrong,but when i tried some expo in ch1's AFR screen ,it
definately showed expo being applied to the other servo used in a
pure
roll command,however i didn't re-check the elevator or collective
stick
actions though to see if all was still ok.
<< Can't see t'wood fo' trees. I do it all the time, especially with
radio's I'm "familiar" with. If ever I get to do a set-up with a new
(to
me) radio, I usually read the book first, but not with one I've used
before. That's were the problems lie. You get the idea you "know" the
radio so don't bother reading anymore, when in reality, there HAS to
be
stuff you've either forgotten or never learned in the first place.
>>>
Yes,i'm certainly guilty of not RTFM when i've used a radio for some
time.In this case the programming was correct but the way i checked it
obviously wasn't.
> >Do you know why my news server sometimes complains with a message
> "more
> >included text than posted",this is the reason why i sometimes have to
>
> >snip a lot of the original posters message away.Funny thing is,it
> >doesn't always complain with this message.
>
> I think you must have your newserver set to a low "line limit"
Thanks ,it sounds like it could be that's the problem,time will tell.
>
>
> In the mail preferences (I think it is, I know it's not the FEMAIL
> preferences anyway:-) it's possible to set a limit to the size of file
>
> it will download. This is normally used to "filter out" binary flies
> but
> if a text file exceeds the limit you've set (or its default) you'll
> only
> get part of the file.
>
I'll have to check this ,but i know (well i think i do) that i have no
limit set on the file sizes in Netcape mail &news prefs.I always get the
whole of the messages
downloaded intact,it's just the server complains (but not always)if i
include too much
original text and not enough new when sending replies.
> I have mine set at 500 lines and there's only been one or two of
> Nick's
> :-) posts "chopped". (Well you know Nick:-)
>
> Have a look and let me know.
>
Yes,sure thing.
Martin
Nick M.V.Salmon
Martin.Armitstead <MArmi...@Compuserve.com> wrote;
:
: This is a snippet from the last message that the server or
: Netscape also refused to send at first,i've found that if i delete some
: of the > from the left hand margin it sends ok,so it's looking at the
: number of > 's and if it see's too many it says f**k you i aint sending
: that :-)
Hey Martin...
Can't you just hit "Do as you're damn well told computer and send the
f&*kin' thing..!"..? ;-)
Nick M.V.Salmon
Beavis <Bea...@XXXnachos.demon.co.uk> wrote;
:
: I have mine set at 500 lines and there's only been one or two
What a scrofulous slur cur; (Thass sir wivva cupple spellig missakes u c...)
Me, I never write more than errrmmm, well, perhaps sooometimes......?
Anyone for 'even more fun'..??????????????
Dunno the emoticon for duckin' faaaast... :-)
Byeee... ;-)
ZZZZZZzzzzzz...
Nick...
Martin.Armitstead
Nick M.V.Salmon wrote:
> Martin.Armitstead <MArmi...@Compuserve.com> wrote;
> :
> : This is a snippet from the last message that the server or
>
> : Netscape also refused to send at first,i've found that if i delete
> some
> : of the > from the left hand margin it sends ok,so it's looking at
> the
> : number of > 's and if it see's too many it says f**k you i aint
> sending
> : that :-)
>
> Hey Martin...
>
> Can't you just hit "Do as you're damn well told computer and send the
> f&*kin' thing..!"..? ;-)
>
Nick,
Some of my computer illiterate workmates have do just that,but
the Laptop usually has to go back for repair :-)
Martin.
Nick M.V.Salmon
Martin.Armitstead <MArmi...@Compuserve.com> wrote
:
: Nick M.V.Salmon wrote:
:
: > Can't you just hit "Do as you're damn well told computer and send the
: > f&*kin' thing..!"..? ;-)
: >
:
: Some of my computer illiterate workmates .... do just that, but
: the Laptop usually has to go back for repair :-)
HeHeHeHeHeHeHeHe................. ;-)
Martin.Armitstead
Thanks Marco,you're right i tried the AFR setup again and it appeared to
work this time as you explained AFR should.At first i thought it could
have been because i didn't have SR3 enabled but i would have seen this
clearly on the SRV servo display screen as i moved the coll or cyclic.It
was the real model memory for the F1 Carbon i was messing with which i'd
already setup and i flew with.I will see if i can duplicate again what
threw me into thinking it wasn't working correctly.
Martin.
Beavis
In article <01bd89be$d73358e0$LocalHost@oemcomputer>, Nick M.V.Salmon
<nm...@dial.pipex.com> writes
And here's me thinking you'd miss that one Nick :-) (as if)