Supre Tigre G23 Carb Prob
Paul Crowfoot
My ST G23 (23cc) just won't run on the standard carb.
The engine was obtained s/h and only just run in, it still looks as new!
It has only run for about an hour total in the 6 months I've had it, and
that was just adjusting and tweaking it.
I've tried various set-ups of different plugs and fuel and an on board glow
but to no avail.
The standard carb has 3 needle adjustments compared to the usual 2, and it's
just too finicky.
Has anybody tried a different carb on this motor?
Where did you get the carb?
What plug and fuel do you use?
Many thanks in advance.
Paul C
Ron Kosar
full throttle - always died in mid range. I worked first with local ST
experts for several weeks and then with Hobbico technical support for
another 5 weekends, trying to get it to run at midrange. Hobbico (Tower
Hobbies) was very supportive and even sent me a Perry pump to try. Look on
their website for technical instructions about plugging one of the outlets
of dual outlet muffler to increase the back pressue. Pé Reivers, a very
talented engineer in Netherlands, has published a modification to some
production versions of the ST-G23 carb that includes drilling out the spray
bar and grinding this and that - far too complex for mortals like myself. A
number of owners had no problems, and the rest of us owned many lemons.
There are several solutions that may work for you.
1) purchase the Conneley Precision (Perry) large carb made for ST-G23 (about
$40) - I have seen it work just great.
2) purchase an OS 7D carb and throat adapter (very pricey)
3) Pé Reivers fix.
4) sell the ST-G23 (in almost new condition) and purchase an OS 1.60FX (this
was my solution)
--
Regards...Ron Kosar
"Paul Crowfoot" <pm...@REMOVEbigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:aabsbs$i3i$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
Dr1Driver
>It has only run for about an hour
ST's may take a little longer to break in than other engines. With only an
hour on it, it's not nearly broken in yet. This can cause a "finicky" carb
setting.
Dr.1 Driver
"There's a Hun in the sun!"
Pe Reivers
For the handy-men the link is:
www.reivers.myweb.nl
The solutions presented worked for ALL Supertigre engines so far, including
the smaller ones, and the heavy Big Tigres.
--
Pé, from Arcen, south-east Netherlands
prei...@mvvs-nl.com
www.mvvs-nl.com/index.html
"Ron Kosar" <rko...@starband.net> schreef in bericht
news:BXey8.11797$KT4.386...@twister1.starband.net...
RC Pilot
same problems that everyone else describes. I had the fuel inlet
nipple turned toward the front engine mounting hole as recommended by
the importers. I could get a good idle and a good full bore setting
but everything in between was so rich you were lucky to get from idle
to full bore anyway!
After much fiddling with secondary needle settings for very little
gain I did this. I ground the tip of the idle needle to a point so it
tapered over the last 3/32". This helped quite a bit as it allowed me
to screw in the idle needle a lot further without lousing up the
actual idle. The midrange did become leaner. Next, I threw out the
Super Tigre plug on the advice of a friend, and fitted a 1 1/2 volt
Taylor plug, which made a terrific difference to the midrange. Next I
rotated the fuel inlet nipple back to midway between the factory
setting and the importers "pointing at the first engine mount hole"
setting. This helped too.
With all this the engine doesn't run too badly. After extended idling
I have too "rev up" a bit to clear it's throat before I go to full
throttle, however, it's okay in flight, there's just a bit of lag
'till it picks up.
I've been told that ASP 108 carbs fit and are an improvement.
Hope this helps. RC Pilot
Joe L.
correctly? Simple solution: Stop buying these brands and the
manufacturers will soon get the message. They will either go belly up,
or they will correct the problems.
Amen, Joe L.
It's never too late to learn something new. - Colonel Custer
> admin@loopback $LOGIN@localhost $LOGNAME@localhost
$USER@localhost
> $USER@$HOST -h1024@localhost ro...@mailloop.com
DAYFLIER
Sukhoi... Great engine really love it lots of power,... And yes mine runs rich
in mid range, Ive rotated the spray bar and this helps a little...I have
noticed mine will go dead in flight usually on approach especially if its too
rich or too lean either one but its not a real problem IE,not worth giveng the
motor away..... Another thing the 108 carb is a lot smaller carb, what you gain
on mid and low end ;you give away on upper end..Once I 've got mine dialed in
,and ;yes it still runs rich in med range..I just dont spend a lot of time
runnig around it this area,,,,,I love doing touch an goes and I have no
problem with it ... A lot of power for the money............Will be glad when
they're back in production............................BOBBY
Ron Kosar
good results that you had with yours. Ran more than 2 1/2 gallons of fuel
through the G2300 at full bore rich over 6 weekends and never was able to
get any operation in the midrange more than a about 5 seconds duration.
Clearly this engine had problems, and I wasn't the only one in my area
seeing these problems. I had not seen such a troublesome engine in the past
15 years, but remember problems like this way back when I started in C/L in
the late fifties. Engine technology and quality has certainly progress since
back then, and I thought it was criminal how Super Tigre would let junk like
that ruin their brand reputation.
BUT another flyer in my club had reasonable success with his G2300 engine
after about a gallon of run-in.
As far as I was concerned this was a lemon and I wanted to fly, not spend
another weekend fiddling with a defective product. In fact, the owner of the
hobby shop in Orlando where I bought the G2300, packed up all his unsold
G2300 units and sent them back to Hobbico for credit, because of the
problems that his customers were experiencing.
Regards...Ron Kosar
"Ed Cregger" <ecre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:jqejcuo0ogbkpgma1...@4ax.com...
I had a G2300, Paul. I broke it in on Sig 5% nitro, all castor oil
fuel and used an Enya #3 glow plug. The fuel tank was brand new with
all new and checked fuel line.
Being an old timer, I know not to bother setting the low speed need
for a great idle for the first several tanks of fuel. Instead, I ran
it blubbery rich (wide open throttle) with a slightly undersized prop
to help seat the ring at the targeted rpm range at which the engine
will spend its life running.
Is all of this pampering necessary? Most likely not, but it didn't
hurt anything and I had a great time. 8>)
After a while I set the carb up for proper running. When? When it felt
right and the engine no longer showed signs of needing more break-in.
When is this? When the engine decides it is ready. Some engines come
in within a tank or two, other engines may take gallons.
How did it run? Well, it never ran like a YS four-stroke, but it
throttled well for an atmospherically aspirated glow two-stroke.
Anyone trying to get a glow two-stroke to run like an electric motor
with a precision speed control is wasting their time and just begging
for disappointment. It will never happen, but they can run "nominally
well", which my G2300 did.
Despite the recent trend in describing engine settings as "X number of
turns" or "X number of tanks of fuel" for a successful break-in, my
advice to you is to keep running the brute with many rich, rich, rich
tanks of fuel.
The glow plug is of primary importance and will affect virtually every
aspect of how your engine performs. An Enya #3, an OS Type-F or a
K&B1L will probably do the job for you. I happened to have the Enya
plug lying around and discovered that it worked very well in this
engine. YMMV
Good luck with yours.
Ed Cregger
Pe Reivers
of us. They produced marvellous engines with exemplary value-for-money.
I understand that tweaking engines is not everybody's bread, but for those
of us who do like it, it adds an extra dimension to model flight. Call it
4-D flight if you want.
--
Pé, from Arcen, south-east Netherlands
prei...@mvvs-nl.com
www.mvvs-nl.com/index.html
"Joe L." <jo...@erols.com> schreef in bericht
news:3CC9D5BD...@erols.com...
RK
Regards...Ron Kosar
"Pe Reivers" <p...@reivers.myweb.nl> wrote in message
news:aag9n3$5aj$1...@azure.nl.gxn.net...
RK
frustration...sorry if my message had an edge. Actually I nearly became
depressed having to replace the G2300 because it sure was a strong running
beauty...light, powerful and CHEAP.
Regards...Ron
"Ed Cregger" <ecre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:08jlcukhe6d579s3s...@4ax.com...
> I didn't mean to imply that just TLC would alleviate the problem, Ron.
>
> It is obvious that some of the G-23 carbs were made with problems and
> some were not. Somehow I ended up with a good one. Sorry that you and
> many others did not.
>
> I have seen a few instances where some newbies got spooked by all of
> the rumors and saw bad things where they did not exist. Some gave up,
> assuming the worst. Such is life.
>
> A Perry carb, or, as someone else has mentioned, an ASP 1.08 carb,
> would cure the problem. Additionally, if you feel frisky, Pe' Reivers
> method will straighten out a dog of a carb too.
>
> Ed Cregger
Jenny and Paul Landels
>1) purchase the Conneley Precision (Perry) large carb made for ST-G23 (about
>$40) - I have seen it work just great.
>2) purchase an OS 7D carb and throat adapter (very pricey)
>3) Pé Reivers fix.
>4) sell the ST-G23 (in almost new condition) and purchase an OS 1.60FX (this
>was my solution)
;-)
Paul
Just Engines; (http://www.justengines.unseen.org)
new address;
JUST ENGINES
NEWBY CROSS FARM
NEWBY CROSS
CARLISLE
CUMBRIA CA5 6JP England
TEL/FAX (0)1228 712800
pls update your records
thx
Paul
Your email/order has been received...... thanks
*** We have moved to new premises ***
and are currently refurbishing the office/workshop
If we have not answered you email - please be patient
with us - we will get round to it
thx
Paul/Jenny
MrPete37
and with OS 7D carb the throttle response is simply incredible....no sags,
burbles just instant excelleration.
Marvelous!!
Pete C. Maurek
Wichita Falls Texas
Wawavoum
Hello there !
My ST G20-23 has NEVER work correctly with a OS 7L carb, with a ST carb and
even with a Perry pump and a Perry carb adapted for.
I have try a lot of #fuel, #glow plug, #muffler, on board glow power supply
etc...an lost a lot of money.
Stop your test right now and buy a OS 160 FX !
Philippe
--
Remove "no-spam." of the email address below.
Philippe Roehr no-spa...@wanadoo.fr
Pe Reivers
--
Pé, from Arcen, south-east Netherlands
prei...@mvvs-nl.com
www.mvvs-nl.com/index.html
"Jenny and Paul Landels" <juste...@enterprise.net> schreef in bericht
news:5i8DJdEj...@enterprise.net...
>
> >1) purchase the Conneley Precision (Perry) large carb made for ST-G23
(about
> >$40) - I have seen it work just great.
> >2) purchase an OS 7D carb and throat adapter (very pricey)
$100 in holland, don't ask why I know!
> >3) Pé Reivers fix.
Hey it works!
> >4) sell the ST-G23 (in almost new condition) and purchase an OS 1.60FX
(this
> >was my solution)
What a shame. The ultimate proof of surrender.
> 5) the Moki 135 carb works well in a 20/23
> ;-)
??
Pe Reivers
I just lost some power using this solution. Set-up was quite easy, but very
expensive. About half the price of the new engine!
When the engine has been run in, my method also provides the required half
throttle adjustment, provides more power, and costs nothing. I can do it
blindfolded by way of speech. :-)
--
Pé, from Arcen, south-east Netherlands
prei...@mvvs-nl.com
www.mvvs-nl.com/index.html
"MrPete37" <mrpe...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:20020502145623...@mb-cp.aol.com...
RC Pilot
Flew my CAP 21 for the first time the other day. It's fitted with a
Super Tigre 3000 (30cc) and uses a G20/23 carb. It exhibits exactly
the same overly rich midrange as my G20/23 engine. Let me also add
that I have a Super Tigre .90 in my Goldberg Extra 300 which also does
the same thing. You have to speak as you find. I own three Super
Tigre's of varying capacities that all exhibit the same problem! So,
crap carb's then......
RC Pilot
Sherman F. Dickson II
have a ST 90 in my Aerostar 60 and have been trying to get it to run
properly for the past week without much luck. Several of the engine
guru's at the club had been telling me to put an Enya #3 glow plug in it
and my problems would be solved. Well being new to the sport and on a
budget I was having a tough time justifying spending almost $9 a piece
for glow plugs.
I finally got the engine running fairly well yesterday and had one of
the instructors take the plane up for its maiden flight to trim and
check it out. About five minutes into the flight at 1/3 throttle the
engine died and he had to bring it in dead stick.
Well I went back to trying to get the thing to run properly. I tried a
Fox plug without any luck. Then a KB1L. I could get the thing to run
good at high throttle or idle but it would die out at 1/3 throttle.
Joe Hass happened to show up at the field to fly the Pizazz he brought
with him. He heard that I was having problems and came over to try to
help. He kept on fiddling with the carb settings without much luck and
then asked what kind of plug I had in the engine and what percentage
nitro I was running. When he found out that it wasn't a Enya #3, he went
back to his plane, took the glow plug out of his plane and came back and
put it in my engine. I fired the engine back up and he proceeded to tune
it again. With a few minor adjustments to the low speed setting the
engine ran like a charm. Just as a test we took the Enya #3 out and put
a new KB1L in and the engine proceeded to act up again.
This first hand observation made an Enya #3 believer in me! I packed up
my stuff and headed to the only LHC in town that carries them and picked
up 5! Joe told me that using an Enya #3 and 15% nitro fuel will cure the
vast majority of finicky engine problems. BTW you won't hurt the engine
running this hot plug and 15% nitro.
I also learned how to adjust the low speed needle valve. It should be
set so that as soon as you pinch the fuel supply line the engine should
speed up (lean out) otherwise it is running too rich and too much fuel
is accumulating in the crank case.
Hope this helps, Sherman
Colin Weaver
was an article in a UK magazine saying that there were in
effect 3 adjustments on the ST carb. Main needle, secondary
needle, and angular position of the spraybar in the carb. In
other words you could try rotating the spraybar a bit either
way.
Colin
PS - my experience is with two ST 45's - both had over rich
mid range - but I did not know about the spraybar adjustment
at the time.
On 5 May 2002 01:52:07 -0700, clipp...@ntlworld.com (RC
Colin Weaver
If you fly a sport heli, I can assure you an engine cut can
make you a believer !
Colin
On 5 May 2002 01:52:07 -0700, clipp...@ntlworld.com (RC
Pilot) wrote:
Thomas Buehrer
and give that a try my 90's 61,75 run great on 0 0/0 nitro. and fox standard
plug. If frustration becomes overwhelming contact me for a shipping
address.
Tom
One other small thing, never messed with any bigger than the 90 so am not
familiar with the exhaust set up but on the 90 through the 61 with the
adjustable exhaust manifold make sure the manifold isn't shoved clear in to
the muffler push it all the way in and pull it back out at least 1/2 ". This
also will effect your midrange.
RC Pilot
specified this plug with their early .40 four strokes so I guess it's
a pretty hot plug. Next time out I'll try an OS "F" type plug and see
what happens.
Someone once told me that if the plug is too hot it'll cause
detonation - is this true? Just what happens if the plug is too hot?
And how much hotter could it be considering plenty of people use on
board glow, sometimes on permanantly?
I can't see a four stroke plug causing problems, except maybe
advancing the ignition point, but let me know what you think.
Aiken
OS F plugs - in fact all FS plugs - had a bit longer reach...
Aik
--
http://homepages.tesco.net/~are
"RC Pilot" <clipp...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
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Stuart Knowles
1 Get the engine running,
2 Tune the main needle for max rpm
3 move throttle to idle
4 when rpm settles, pinch fuel pipe near carb and note what happens
if the engine just dies, the idle needle is too LEAN. Using the
manufacturers set up guidlines seems to set the engine with a lean idle.
Also the idle needle has a fine thread and may need considerable
adjustment.
repeat 1 to 4 above, until when fuel line is pinched the idle revs
increase slightly and then die At that moment you are in the right ball
park,
My observation is that when adjusting the carb as per the commonly
available advice, the effect is to set the idle needle too LEAN, I think
that maybe this requires the main needle to be too rich, which causes the
very rich transition from idle to full rpm.
Anyone want to comment, (Only someone who has tested the theory on a
troublesome engine)
I have a 25cc and a 32cc which were real dogs until I happened across
this, Only flown one since but it has transformed into a beautiful engine,
starts easy, idles great, picks up clean
Stuart Knowles.
RC Pilot <clipp...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:12ca02d0.02050...@posting.google.com...
Sherman F. Dickson II
You should check the high speed adjustment at the beginning of every
flying day with any engine. Weather conditions will change your fuel
mixture.
It is my understanding that Super Tigres are also famous for air leaks.
On my ST 61 I had to put a piece of fuel line over the high speed needle
valve so I could seal the threads. I have talked to some who have had to
take the carb apart and put perma gasket on every part that does not
move to get them run properly. Some have even had to take the back plate
off of the crankcase and sealed it. I have also heard that some of the
carbs have ended up with a pin hole in the throttle barrel during
milling that needs to be sealed in order to get the engine to run
correctly.
Super Tigre engines are a love hate relationship. You either love them
or hate them, there is no in between!
On the three Super Tigres I have dealt with so far the 40 ringed ran
great out of the box. The idle needle was set real close out of the box.
It doesn't like Fox glow plugs but runs fine on a KB1L
The Super Tigre 51's carburetor had the idle adjustment set way too rich
from the factory. Once I got it adjusted it runs great. It doesn't like
Fox glow plugs either but runs just fine on a KB1L.
The 61 carburetor idle needle was set way too lean from the factory and
had the air leaks I mentioned. It still won't run worth a damn on
anything but the Enya #3 glow plug but runs great with it. The hot plug
most likely masks some of the problems that I still have but for now I
am not going to do any more toying with that engine.
I have heard that the angle of the spray bar can have a lot to do with
the midrange response but I am not having that problem at this time with
any of my engines so I am not going to play with its angle.
Maybe the reason a SuperTigre runs better as it ages is due to the fact
that with time all those air leaks get sealed with dust, bugs, pollen,
etc.!
Sherman
Pe Reivers
the secret of the manufacturer. That is why these plugs also work miracles
in problem two stroke engines, and are first choice in the larger two
strokes of .90 and up. After all, a glow engine ignition timing is plug
controlled, and quite free-wheeling by it's own laws.
--
Pé, from Arcen, south-east Netherlands
prei...@mvvs-nl.com
www.mvvs-nl.com/index.html
"Aiken" <uk...@lineone.net> schreef in bericht
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Pe Reivers
of the box?
Let me put it another way.
We buy an engine, not for a specific plane or specific use, that the
manufacturer is aware of. We then fit some sort of propeller on it. We mount
it on an engine mount that differs one from the other, like people are
different. Since we do not like the original exhaust, we have one in the
scrap box that fits, so we strap it on because we like that better.
How on earth can we then expect that the engine is tuned "out of the box"
for our needs? <We> are supposed to tune it. It is part of the hobby, and I
think it's required learning stuff how to set up an engine well. All
instructors should teach that part to newbies.
--
Pé, from Arcen, south-east Netherlands
prei...@mvvs-nl.com
www.mvvs-nl.com/index.html
"Sherman F. Dickson II" <dick...@comcast.net> schreef in bericht
news:3CD6DD98...@comcast.net...
Sherman F. Dickson II
their head and walk away. Others are more than helpful. My guess is, the
ones that walk away never had any luck learning how to tune them up.
All three of the ones I currently have running work fine. They are
responsive all the way through the throttle range and only one has had
more than a gallon of fuel through it yet. They will roar like a Tigre
or purr like a kitten and I can hand start all three if I feel like it.
I really don't think it matters that much what brand of engine you have,
they all need tuning and if not tuned properly will not run worth a
damn. I see guys fiddling with all brands of engines trying to get them
to run properly including the 4 cycles that people rave about here. I
also see those engines that others here attempt to discourage people
from buying run like a charm, powering the plane it is in to its full
capabilities.
Learning to tune engines is part of the hobby and those that complain
about a specific engine most likely never learned how to tune one
properly or they expect it to run properly out of the box.
Sherman
PS: I do have a question for you or anyone else familiar with this
particular engine.
I have a Super Tigre G90 ringed with the silent muffler that is still
NIB. It is going to go into a Super Sportster 90/120 that I will be
scratch building. The field I fly at has a 94 DB noise limit @ 9ft. and
others have had to do a lot of work to get this engine down to that
noise level. Most end up using a Pitts style muffler that they have
modified by adding baffles inside and added after mufflers to in order
to reach the DB level.
The 61 I have appears to use the same silent muffler that came with the
91 and it comes in at 92 DB at full throttle so I am quite sure that the
91 will exceed the DB level using only the silent muffler.
I have considered adding an after muffler to the silent but feel that it
will detract from the looks of the finished plane and the Pitts style
muffler with after mufflers would look even worse.
I am currently thinking of going with a short turn header and using a
tuned pipe setup running it either inside the fuselage or by turning the
engine 90 degrees running it in a channel I would build into the bottom
of the fuselage. If possible I would like the finished product to be a
maximum of 92 DB so I don't have to worry about reworking the setup as
the noise level gets lower in the future which I know it will.
I am hoping that maybe you, one of your fellow flyers, or someone else
here has worked with sound control on this engine and can point me in
the right direction. While I will take the time and expense necessary to
come up with a solution if necessary, finding someone who has already
accomplished this task would save me a lot of time and most likely
money.
Thanks, Sherman
RC Pilot
Took the CAP 21 out today. (fitted with a Super Tigre 3000 (30cc) and
using a G20/23 carb'and Bisson Pitts style muffler running on 6%
castor, 6% synthetic and 5% nitro)) I said in my last message that I'd
try an O.S. "F" four stroke plug this time out, which I did. The
difference it made to the midrange was stunning! It's still too rich
in the midrange but nothing like it was before. I really enjoyed
myself with it today as I wasn't worrying about it picking up from low
throttle settings anymore. If this is as good as it's ever going to be
it's still good enough. I must have had some faith in it as I spent a
lot of time doing touch and go's....
Full throttle was okay with no sign of detonation. The only noticable
effect of the four stroke plug was the cleaning up of the midrange and
smoother and more reliable transition. It'd be nice to have it perfect
but I'm pretty happy with it now. Maybe further improvements can be
made with carefull adjustment of the idle needle. We'll see...
Hope this helps someone - RC Pilot.
Pe Reivers
the right dimension. Access to a lathe is nice here. With a larger volume,
you can reduce the outlet diameter of the stinger pipe. This gives a nice
reduction in sound levels and may add some power as well.
Use as large a prop as you are comfortable with. (learn to observe the
difference between noise and performance)
Use vibration absorbing engine mounts. I use backplate mounting on just four
grommets on all my engines (.40 up to 2.1). It works well, and the engine
thus mounted is quite rigid. To absorb 10g vibrations at 200 Hz (12000 rpm),
you need only .004" displacement in the grommets.
If your plane resonates, try to stop that, and loose some 3 to 6 dB(A) in
the process.
--
Pé, from Arcen, south-east Netherlands
prei...@mvvs-nl.com
www.mvvs-nl.com/index.html
"Sherman F. Dickson II" <dick...@comcast.net> schreef in bericht
news:3CD9030E...@comcast.net...
> I agree. <Large snip>
Very large history snip