Denatured Alcohol for fuel?
RogerN
use to blend your own fuel? I'm wondering because I have some 30% heli fuel
with high oil content that I'd like to cut to maybe 15% to 20% with a lower
oil content for model cars.
RogerN
Ed Cregger
"RogerN" <re...@midwest.net> wrote in message
news:U4mdnRz-VZPbyHjU...@earthlink.com...
It depends upon the other compounds included in the gallon of ethanol.
Without a statement verifying a low water content, I don't think I would
bother trying to use it.
On the other hand, if you have a fueling station selling automotive ethanol,
that might be worth a try. Our local station that sells E85 is fifteen miles
away and it sells for less than 87 octane gasoline (10% ethanol). I'm
planning on buying some when I get over that way with the appropriate fuel
container. E100 would be more attractive, but the E85 (15% gasoline) would
be worth a try. I don't think that we will have any problem burning E85 with
a standard glow plug.
One fellow I know who is in the know said that you can mix Klotz Techniplate
with E85 ethanol based motor fuel without having mixing problems. You still
have to use as much oil as you would have to with methanol (17% to 25%).
Ed Cregger
RogerN
"Ed Cregger" <ecre...@bellsouff.net> wrote in message
news:KKcFl.30415$19.2...@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
There is a small ethanol plant opening up in the area. They built the plant
when gasoline was over $4 per gallon so I doubt they are doing very well
right now. Anyway they might be interested in selling me a small quantity
of ethanol for trying out for model airplane fuel. If it worked out I
wouldn't mind purchasing enough ethanol, oils, and nitromethane to supply
model fuel for the local area, they might even be interested in getting into
the model fuel business themselves since gasoline prices dropped.
I looked up info on the internet and there are suppliers for home fuel
ethanol production. They have something they call a microsieve that takes
water out of alcohol and is reusable. I thought if I could experiment with
Wal-Mart denatured alcohol it would be worth a try to blend my own.
RogerN
RogerN
"M-M" <nospa...@ny.more> wrote in message
news:nospam.m-m-0AA7F...@cpe-76-190-186-198.neo.res.rr.com...
> In article <U4mdnRz-VZPbyHjU...@earthlink.com>,
> methanol.
>
> --
> m-m
> http://www.mhmyers.com
If I understand correctly, methanol is wood alcohol and denatured alcohol is
grain alcohol, i.e. ethanol. I think from what I've read, they take
drinkable ethanol and poison it to make it non-drinkable and sell it as
denatured alcohol. The ethanol plant in the area told me they have to mix a
certain percent gasoline in their alcohol, to make it not drinkable, before
they sell it. Perhaps Methanol is used in model fuel because you can get it
pure since it's not suitable for drinking.
If ethanol would work for model fuel, a person can get a legal still and get
about 3 gallons of ethanol per bushel of corn. It comes out of the still
about 96% IIRC and then run it through a microsieve to remove the remaining
water. Anyway, there is a small ethanol plant about 20 miles or so from
here. If ethanol would make good model fuel maybe they could sell me some
pure if I added nitromethane and/or oil before they let me have it.
The reason for my question is that I have some 30% heli fuel with 22% oil
content that I would like to cut to maybe 15% oil to use in model cars, if
denatured alcohol would work.
RogerN
Ed Cregger
Why not just go to a drag racing store and buy some racing methanol? Then
you won't have to worry about compatibility issues chemically.
I did buy a gallon of universal thinner at the hardware store once, which
turned out to be mostly methanol, according to the label. I mixed it with a
quart of castor oil and the engines started and ran just fine. This was back
when flying control line, so there were no throttling issues to test.
Ed Cregger
# 42
poison) added to make it unfit to drink. Still it's basically ethanol
alcohol. The glow plug equipped engines that we all know and love require
methanol. That's because the ignition of the fuel is caused by a reaction
between the methanol and the platinum in the glow plug wire element. It is
this reaction that causes the fuel to combust and the engine to run. Simply
stated, the engine won't run on ethanol (denatured alcohol) because ethanol
doesn't react with the platinum in the glow plug. It just won't work.
RogerN
"# 42" <paulin...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:0IxFl.102435$BR.1...@en-nntp-04.dc1.easynews.com...
Thanks, that's what I was wanting to know. I knew there was something with
the platinum in the glow plug that causes combustion but I didn't know if it
worked with only methanol or also ethanol.
RogerN
RogerN
I'm trying to find a drag racing store in the area to see if I can buy some
methanol. I have found a place around 50 miles away, I e-mailed them to get
a price on methanol and nitromethane. I can get oils online without the
hazmat charge (I hope). Anyway I don't like paying $32 per gallon of 20% RC
car fuel and I'd like to use up some of my heli fuel. I have a small flying
area now and it's more suitable for my small electrics than the 60 glow fuel
heli's.
Thanks for the info!
RogerN
# 42
"M-M" <nospa...@ny.more> wrote in message
> In article <0IxFl.102435$BR.1...@en-nntp-04.dc1.easynews.com>,
> "# 42" <paulin...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>> Simply
>> stated, the engine won't run on ethanol (denatured alcohol) because
>> ethanol
>> doesn't react with the platinum in the glow plug. It just won't work.
>
>
>
> I was cleaning it and for some reason I attached a glow igniter- with
> barely a flip of the prop it started right up- just burning the alcohol
> in the carb and cylinder head- there was no fuel line connected.
>
> Denatured alcohol has methanol in it.
>
> --
> m-m
> http://www.mhmyers.com
With the glow plug being heated by the igniter, the engine would probably
run on a multitude of fuels. But to run _normally_, there needs to be
methanol in the fuel, ethanol just ain't going to do it. As I understand it,
the platinum acts as a catalyst causing the methanol to react with oxygen,
i.e. burn.
RogerN
I looked up denatured alcohol and found out one way they can denature/poison
it is by mixing in methanol. There is a drag strip and a race track in the
area, if I can find a methanol supply in the area then I'll be set. I just
thought if I could use denatured alcohol then I already knew I could get it
from Wal-Mart or the hardware store.
I thought I could buy a gallon of 30%, some klotz oil, and some methanol,
and mix up 3 gallons of 10% or 2 gallons of 15%. If I can mix 3 gallons
from $30 worth of fuel, $10 in oil, and less than $10 methanol, I can have 3
gallons of 10% for $50 without the hazmat fee. Actually I'm considering
something more like buying 50% nitro and stretching it with Klotz and
methanol.
RogerN
bm...@scn.org
A glo plug will work just fine with ethanol. It will also work just
fine with acetone or lots and lots of other light organics. That
catalyst on the wire is NOT specific to methanol. In fact with
acetone you do not even need a precious metal. A high temp copper
alloy wire would be fully adequate. Something like monel for
instance.
The reason glo engines use methanol as fuel is all engines run on
heat. So the more BTUs of fuel air mix you can stuff into the
cylinder per combustion cycle the more power you get out of the
engine. It is simple high school chemistry to calculate if ethanol is
as good as methanol and it is not. Nor is acetone. But your engine
will run on either of them. You might have to change the compression
ratio a little to get optimum performance from alternate fuels. The
small amount of water in denatured ethanol is irrelevant. The only
thing that matters is you must not have so much water in the fuel that
it causes the oil to separate. If the oil stays in solution the water
makes no meaningful difference. In fact tests on methanol based fuels
show slightly increased performance with a few % of water in the
fuel. Those test results were published in one of the model mags a
few years ago.
So bottom line is if you do not mind giving up a little power lots of
alternate fuels will work just fine. But every one of them will cost
you power vs methanol.
Now, if you do not want to give up power you could experiment with
real high nitro content ethanol. But the cost of the nitro will drive
the fuel cost higher then methanol based fuel so why bother? You
could also look at burning anhydrous hydrazine and get more power than
methanol based fuels. Of course it is going to eat up your engine
pretty fast. Still, you might get an hour or two out of it before it
was totalled. Liquid ammonia is another possibility. Same corrosion
problem and you also are dealing with a fuel tank under 40 or 50
psig. Acetylene would be another logical choice. Now you are dealing
with a possible explosion if you do not know how to handle the stuff.
Bottom line is methanol is the best overall practical choice for max
power output, ease of use, life of equipment and user safety. If
there was a better choice the fuel manufacturers would be selling it.
Ray Haddad
wrote:
>I thought I could buy a gallon of 30%
Do you have any idea what the other 70% is? Take a guess.
Hint: It doesn't burn.
--
Ray
RogerN
"Ray Haddad" <r...@perthmagic.com> wrote in message
news:s83fu4t5vcgcsv2c6...@4ax.com...
My 30% Cool Power is supposed to be 30% nitro, 22% oil, and the rest
methanol. I'm guessing you thought I meant a gallon of 30% methanol with
70% water? For my model car sport fuel I thought I might try 10% nitro, 16%
oil (may be revised between now and then, some use 9% oil in racing), and
the remainder methanol.
RogerN
RogerN
Just wondering how "Choose your own blend" would work for clubs? A club
could buy a drum of Methanol, a few gallons of Nitro, castor and synthetic
oil. Out of that they could mix FAI, 10% sport fuel, heli fuel, high nitro,
all synthetic, all castor, or mix synthetic and castor... all the popular
mixes + club members could design their own custom mixes if they wanted.
Club members could buy the fuel they liked the best or be able to buy the
components to brew their own "secret" blends.
Just a thought, seems better than buying a drum of one kind of fuel to try
to fit everybody.
RogerN
Ray Haddad
wrote:
>"Ray Haddad" <r...@perthmagic.com> wrote in message
>news:s83fu4t5vcgcsv2c6...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 08:50:10 -0500, "RogerN" <re...@midwest.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>I thought I could buy a gallon of 30%
>>
>> Do you have any idea what the other 70% is? Take a guess.
>> Hint: It doesn't burn.
>
>My 30% Cool Power is supposed to be 30% nitro, 22% oil, and the rest
>methanol. I'm guessing you thought I meant a gallon of 30% methanol with
>70% water? For my model car sport fuel I thought I might try 10% nitro, 16%
>oil (may be revised between now and then, some use 9% oil in racing), and
>the remainder methanol.
Yes, I was referring to alcohol versus fuel. The 90% alcohol you get
at a drug store, when opened, immediately becomes 87% just from being
opened to the air. The longer you leave it open, the faster the
alcohol evaporates. Within hours, you will find yourself at the 56%
point which is where it seems the surface tension of the water can and
will keep most of the alcohol from evaporating. The 30% alcohol is
often used on those pads that doctors use to wipe your arm before you
get the needle. The mix is such that the alcohol will stay in solution
a long time. But there's heaps of water in the mix.
I've been following this thread with interest. I wouldn't advise using
alcohol in model two stroke engines. What happens inside the engine is
that the water in suspension in the fuel can cause a rapid expansion
inside the chamber and actually crack a head. When people leave their
weed whacker outside and moisture gets into the two stroke gas mix,
the same thing often happens. You must be very careful when you
introduce water into your fuel mix. Try experimenting with an old but
serviceable engine that starts easily. The first thing that you will
notice is that starting is very, very hard when you add alcohol.
That's due to the water in the fuel/air mix. Unavoidable.
--
Ray
Tom Minger
split up expenses is not cost effective when you factor in the mess and
trouble. A 55 gal drum of menthol would require about 15 gallons of oil and
about the same in nitro (in 5 gal buckets). Then you have the storing/moving
the big drum around, mixing, minimizing exposure to air, getting 85 - 90
bottles, getting rid of the drums, etc, etc. Much better to buy as you need
it and eat the extra bucks a gallon. In addition, most commercial fuels have
other additives that don't normally get added in home brews.
If you are trying to dilute down a high nitro bottle of fuel, the easiest
way is to buy a gallon(s) of FAI (0 percent nitro) or 5% and blend together
as needed to get the reduction you want. Prolly would not have to bother
with buying extra oil, bottles or mixing equipment.
Just a thought......
Tom
"RogerN" <re...@midwest.net> wrote in message
news:ytedneRhfvvcAnrU...@earthlink.com...
MJKolodziej
"Tom Minger" <tomm...@volcano.net> wrote in message
news:1sWdnfW-kbwHT3rU...@neonova.net...
> It's been my experience that mixing your own, even with buddies involved
> to split up expenses is not cost effective when you factor in the mess and
> trouble. A 55 gal drum of menthol would require about 15 gallons of oil
> and about the same in nitro (in 5 gal buckets). Then you have the
> storing/moving the big drum around, mixing, minimizing exposure to air,
> getting 85 - 90 bottles, getting rid of the drums, etc, etc. Much better
> to buy as you need it and eat the extra bucks a gallon. In addition, most
> commercial fuels have other additives that don't normally get added in
> home brews.
>
> If you are trying to dilute down a high nitro bottle of fuel, the easiest
> way is to buy a gallon(s) of FAI (0 percent nitro) or 5% and blend
> together as needed to get the reduction you want. Prolly would not have to
> bother with buying extra oil, bottles or mixing equipment.
>
> Just a thought......
>
> Tom
>
>
I think he was trying to lower the OIL % for cars.
mk
bm...@scn.org
> In article
> <df533d33-484d-4f0f-b3c7-98f8e3b3e...@r36g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>,
>
> bm...@scn.org wrote:
> > It is simple high school chemistry to calculate if ethanol is
> > as good as methanol and it is not.
>
> with a pure blue almost invisible flame. Denatured alcohol or anything
> else burns with yellow in the flame.
>
> --
> m-mhttp://www.mhmyers.com
Flame color is totally irrelevant. ie meaningless.
bm...@scn.org
> In article
>
> bm...@scn.org wrote:
> > > Easier than calculating is to burn it in an alcohol lamp. Methanol burns
> > > with a pure blue almost invisible flame. Denatured alcohol or anything
> > > else burns with yellow in the flame.
>
>
> completely, leaving residue behind.
>
> --
> m-mhttp://www.mhmyers.com
What you were taught in school is more or less correct about why a
flame is yellow. The yellow flame is either due to tiny carbon
particles heated to incandescent temperatures or due to tiny amounts
of sodium in the fuel that is flourescing. This has absolutely
nothing at all to do with the value of any given fuel in an engine.
In fact many very high energy density fuels burn quite yellow under
any other then near perfect conditions. Some will burn yellow under
perfect conditions. While other totally miserable fuels will burn
very blue or even colorless under a fairly wide range of conditions.
Flame color is 100% meaningless with respect to how much power you are
going to get out of an internal combustion engine from that fuel. If
you want to know how much energy to expect from a fuel you either do
the simple high school calculations or you live in a dream world. No
one is going to beat the laws of thermodynamics. Engines run on heat
not color.
RogerN
"M-M" <nospa...@ny.more> wrote in message
> In article
> <aaf186a6-665c-4a13...@v15g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> bm...@scn.org wrote:
>
>> Flame color is 100% meaningless with respect to how much power you are
>> going to get out of an internal combustion engine from that fuel.
>
>
> leave residue.
>
> --
> m-m
> http://www.mhmyers.com
That makes sense but what I've found so far is that methanol and ethanol
seem to be similar in price but ethanol is what they add to our gasoline. I
haven't found a place listing prices of a drum or ethanol and a drum of
methanol for comparison though.
On a side note, I found a store selling 4 packs of Heet gas line antifreeze
(Methanol), just under $5 for 48 oz. Expensive but still cheaper than model
fuel, if I can't find Methanol locally, I could stretch my heli fuel to car
fuel that way. I'd like to go from my 22% oil synthetic to maybe 14%
synthetic and add 2% castor, my engine recommends 16% oil.
RogerN
bm...@scn.org
> In article
>
> bm...@scn.org wrote:
> > Flame color is 100% meaningless with respect to how much power you are
> > going to get out of an internal combustion engine from that fuel.
>
> leave residue.
>
> --
> m-mhttp://www.mhmyers.com
Bullshit
MJKolodziej
The question in my mind is: Which costs more in parts, a Heli or a buggy?
I know the LHS owner makes money from both. Let us know.
:)
mk
RogerN
"MJKolodziej" <mjmwcsremov...@htcomp.net> wrote in message
news:gsfkid$ujm$1...@news.motzarella.org...<snip>
>>
>> On a side note, I found a store selling 4 packs of Heet gas line
>> antifreeze (Methanol), just under $5 for 48 oz. Expensive but still
>> cheaper than model fuel, if I can't find Methanol locally, I could
>> stretch my heli fuel to car fuel that way. I'd like to go from my 22%
>> oil synthetic to maybe 14% synthetic and add 2% castor, my engine
>> recommends 16% oil.
>>
>> RogerN
>
> The question in my mind is: Which costs more in parts, a Heli or a buggy?
> I know the LHS owner makes money from both. Let us know.
> :)
> mk
If I understand correctly, buggy fuel should be from around 9% to 16% oil
and the helicopter fuel has 22% oil. It is supposed to be because the buggy
is speeding and slowing from corner to corner whereas heli's and planes
engines are producing power more constantly. My original thought was to
just burn heli fuel in the buggy since I have some gallons that are getting
old. I mostly fly heli's around home these days and the small battery
operated heli's get the most flying. If I could find some methanol I could
remix my 30% nitro, 22% oil heli fuel to be more suitable for the buggy.
The Heli has more $$$ in parts but heli and buggy engines are in a similar
price range.
RogerN
RogerN
"M-M" <nospa...@ny.more> wrote in message
> In article
> <dddc746a-6576-42fc...@f19g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
> Hold a glass over a methanol flame and then a denatured alcohol flame
> and see which one leaves soot.
>
> --
> m-m
> http://www.mhmyers.com
But wouldn't a gasoline fire even be worse? In searching around on the
internet, one reason they want to use methanol in race cars is in case there
is a fire, it doesn't block the other drivers vision. On the other hand,
with the right fuel to air ratio gasoline makes an acceptable motor fuel.
Also on an oxygen acetylene torch, the acetylene sends a lot of soot into
the air until you turn on the oxygen. This has me wondering if the ethanol
burns with a yellow flame due to incorrect air/fuel ratio? No doubt that
methanol is the alcohol of choice since ethanol is so widely available and
possibly cheaper than methanol. But on the other hand ethanol plants were
being built when gasoline was over $4 per gallon, it should be an acceptable
motor fuel.
RogerN
bm...@scn.org
> In article
>
> Hold a glass over a methanol flame and then a denatured alcohol flame
> and see which one leaves soot.
>
> --
> m-mhttp://www.mhmyers.com
Totally irrelevant bullshit by someone who has no clue. That soot has
nothing at all to do with what happens in a properly running engine.
Of course that assumes you get any soot from denatured ethanol in such
a totally meaningless test. A miserable assumption to start with. It
all depends on what it is denatured with.
If you did the same test with model fuel you would also get soot from
the oil in the fuel. So I suppose that means we should all carefully
run fuel that contains no oil?
The simple fact is ethanol is a perfectly good fuel in glo engines.
It will not harm engine life a bit. A standard glo plug will work
just fine. It has been used as engine fuel many times. It has no
greater propensity to pick up water from the air then methanol has.
It has a slightly higher flash point making it slightly safer to use.
It is also less toxic so the fumes you breath are slightly less
dangerous. Not that methanol is all that toxic in view of the fact
that your own body makes a bit of methanol every day all by itself.
You just do not get quite as much power from the engine running on
ethanol as you get from methanol. That is the only reason model fuels
are made from methanol.
bm...@scn.org
> "M-M" <nospam....@ny.more> wrote in message
>
> news:nospam.m-m-AC31F...@cpe-76-190-186-198.neo.res.rr.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article
> > <dddc746a-6576-42fc-a9ca-6fb0bfcba...@f19g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
>
> - Show quoted text -
Actually the lowest cost way to make ethanol is from crude oil. You
crack the crude to ethylene and hydrate the ethylene. That is how
industrial grade ethanol is made. Fermentation is mandated by law as
the way ethanol must be produced for additive to gasoline. It is
illegal to use the cheap stuff to produce as a gasoline additive. It
only survives at all in the market place due to the huge government
subsidies handed out to the fuel ethanol producers. So if you buy
ethanol for anything other then adding to gasoline or drinking is more
then likely is not made by fermentation.
RogerN
bought a drum of 99% methanol for $80. I'm planning to get some gallon jugs
and mix methanol and oil, fill the jugs 3/4 full and add a quart of 40%
nitro fuel to get a gallon of 10% fuel. Since I probably won't be running
through a drum of methanol right away I'm thinking I need to make a
desiccant air dryer to use for the drum vent. Since some clubs purchase
bulk fuel, I thought someone might have some tips or recommendations for
mixing, pumps, keeping fuel fresh, etc.
Thanks
RogerN
Vance Howard
the methanol with oil and nitro. Leave very little air in the top of the
jugs, seal them, and store in a cool, dark place.
--
To reply by email: vhoward1122 at gmail dot com
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
A friend of mine who inherited a drum of methanol
used nitrogen to pump the stuff out as needed.
He's an engineer who worked on oil pipelines, so
he knew how to handle the plumbing and keep things
safe.
I don't know what kind of fittings you'd need to
do the same or what the relevant safety issues
might be.
Good luck!
Marty
--
Big-8 newsgroups: humanities.*, misc.*, news.*, rec.*, sci.*, soc.*, talk.*
See http://www.big-8.org for info on how to add or remove newsgroups.
Morgans
"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <mol...@canisius.edu> wrote
> A friend of mine who inherited a drum of methanol
> used nitrogen to pump the stuff out as needed.
>
> He's an engineer who worked on oil pipelines, so
> he knew how to handle the plumbing and keep things
> safe.
>
> I don't know what kind of fittings you'd need to
> do the same or what the relevant safety issues
> might be.
Key would be the strength of the container. If it is in a steel barrel, not
as big an issue than if it is in a plastic barrel. Steel would deal with
the pressure much better. I don't trust plastic, since it could split at
the seams where the two piece molds close.
After that, a quality pressure regulator to keep pressure in control.
Also, he said something in one of his early posts about a dessicant for the
vent. A much better solution would be using dry gas like nitrogen for
makeup air, at least, even if it was not being used for pressurizing the
container for forcing the methanol out.
Did that make any sense?
--
Jim in NC