Dope thinner = isopropyl alcohol?
Ed Paasch
some clear dope and dope thinner to cover it. When I bought the dope
thinner, I couldn't help but think I'd just paid way too much for some
rubbing alcohol.
Can any of you veteran model builders out there tell me if my suspicions are
correct or not? I don't really know anything about dope or dope thinner,
other than I'll be needing it to add the tissue to my kit.
Just curious and hoping to know more...
Frank Schwartz
recommend you cut the dope about 50% with the thinner...after
you have appliedthe tissue to the framework and water spray shrunk
the tissue, you can put light coats of the thinned dope on the
paper...until it is filled...usually three or four coats will seal the
tissue and not add much weight at all...
Frank
Robbie and Laura Reynolds
What kind of dope is it? Nitrate, butyrate, or Pactra Aerogloss? If I
remember correctly, shellac is thinned with alcohol, but dope has more
hazardous chemicals in it.
One way to figure out what's in the thinner is to read the warnings.
The label usually will say something like "Warning! Very hazardous to
your health. Contains MEK, xylene and toluene." or something like
that. They may not want to tell you their secret formula, but they have
to warn you about it.
Tim Wescott
to automotive lacquer, and dope thinner is basically automotive lacquer
thinner. IIRC it has acetone, naptha and other nasty things in it, but
I don't know the mix (and I know that acetone alone won't thin dope --
been there, done that).
If you do a lot of work with dope you may want to get your thinner from
an automotive paint store -- not only will a quart cost about 2x as much
as an 8-ounce jar of dope thinner, but if you _really_ want to get fancy
you can control the dry time by using different thinner mixes.
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Posting from Google? See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" came out in April.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html
Frank Schwartz
Butyrate...this is resistant to glow fuel. In the "old days" of
gasoline ignition engines, the dope was Nitrate. it is still
available from some sources, but for almost all purposes, the readily
available Butyrate dope is fine. I use it when I build an old timer
and cover it with silk...or a small model covered with tissue.
Robbie and Laura Reynolds
I don't know exactly what Aerogloss is, but apparently it is not
butyrate. I have a compatibility chart showing different finishing
materials. According to this chart, you can't put nitrate on top of
Aerogloss, but you can put Aerogloss on top of nitrate, which would
suggest that Aerogloss is the same as butyrate.
However, the chart also says that butyrate is compatible over Aerogloss,
but Aerogloss is not compatible on top of butyrate, which would suggest
that Aerogloss is not butyrate.
I was under the impression that Aerogloss was a type of acrylic, but
according to this chart you can't put it on top of acrylic lacquer or
acrylic enamel, but you can put both of these over aerogloss.
I don't know what is in Aerogloss....
If you guys are interested in the compatibility chart, I'll post it.
The Natural Philosopher
solvent that is generally used. Methyl Methacryclate? Methyl Ethyl Ketone?
Dunno.
Jarhead
"Ed Paasch" <bigedm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:KWPah.4325$7d1...@newsfe13.lga...
Rubbing alcohol is 30% distilled water and 70% isopropyl alcohol. Not
suitable for a dope thinner.
--
Jarhead
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
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Lyman Slack
is not compatible with ANYTHING! It was a great product, but don't put it
over anything else, nor anything over it. This includes thinners as well.
Cheers -- \_________Lyman Slack________/
\_______Flying Gators R/C___/
\_____AMA 6430 LM____ /
\___Gainesville FL_____/
Visit my Web Site at www.LymanSlack.com
"Robbie and Laura Reynolds" <rob...@kcnet.com> wrote in message
news:456BEE63...@kcnet.com...
Sport Pilot
Aerogloss is a mix of butyrate and acrylic lacquer. Or so I have been
told. May want to check if they have some MSDS sheets which would tell
you.
Sport Pilot
Aerogloss is a mix of butyrate and acrylic lacquer. Or so I have been
Geoff Sanders
>
> Material Safety Data Sheet from CCPC
>
> Cellulose Acetate Butyrate Dope
> AS&SC Product Name: 09-10500 CERT BUTYRATE DOPE CLEAR GAL
> CCPC Product Name: Butyrate Dope CAB-150
> Ingredient Listing: Acetone - Butyl Acetate - Toluene - Methyl Ethyl
> Ketone - Cellulose Acetate Butyrate
>
> Cellulose Nitrate Dope
> AS&SC Product Name: 09-09500 CERT NITRATE DOPE CLEAR GAL
> CCPC Product Name: Nitrate Dope
> Ingredient Listing: Isopropyl Alcohol - Butyl Acetate - Toluene - Methyl
> Ethyl Ketone - Nitrocellulose
>
> Cellulose Acetate Butyrate Dope Thinner
> AS&SC Product Name: 09-12000 CERT BUTYRATE THINNER GAL
> CCPC Product Name: Butyrate Thinner
> Ingredient Listing: Acetone - Diacetone Alcohol - Toluene - Methyl Ethyl
> Ketone
>
> Cellulose Nitrate Dope Thinner
> AS&SC Product Name: 09-11500 CERT NITRATE THINNER GAL
> CCPC Product Name: Nitrate Thinner
> Ingredient Listing: Acetone -Isopropyl Alcohol - - Toluene - Naphtha-
> Methyl Ethyl Ketone - 1 Methoxy-2-Propanol Acetate
>
>
>
Ted Campanelli
so great) words of knowledge:
Can't tell you about butrayte dope thinner, but NITRATE dope can be
thinned with lacquer thinner. That is all I use with nitrate dope.
MK
Thanks.
mk
"Robbie and Laura Reynolds" <rob...@kcnet.com> wrote in message
news:456BEE63...@kcnet.com...
>
>
Dan_Thom...@yahoo.com
Robbie and Laura Reynolds wrote:
> One way to figure out what's in the thinner is to read the warnings.
> The label usually will say something like "Warning! Very hazardous to
> your health. Contains MEK, xylene and toluene." or something like
> that. They may not want to tell you their secret formula, but they have
> to warn you about it.
Toluene is laquer thinner. Xylene is something else and is used
in some automotive finishes. Acetone isn't the same as either of them
and is most often used as a polyester resin thinner (fiberglassing
resin). MEK is really nasty stuff and is used in some aircraft
finishing systems.
Laquer thinner should work for most dopes.
Dan
Sport Pilot
Lacquer thinner contains Toulene, Acetone, MEK, eethanol, ethanol,
naptha, n-butyl acetate, and many other solvents. Depends on the use,
high humidity, primer, varnish, pric, etc.
Here are a few MSDS of lacquer thinners. The components are listed.
http://www.lancergroup.com/MSDS/msds-lqt.html
http://www.hazard.com/msds/f2/bxk/bxkjq.html
http://www.allprocorp.com/msds/Coronado/LACQTHINNER.cfm
http://www.automagic.com/MSDS/24-msds.htm
http://www.actequipment.com/msds/fsp2002.pdf
http://www.conncoll.edu/offices/envhealth/MSDS/buildingtrades/457-lacquer-thinner.htm
http://intranet.risd.edu/envirohealth_msds/PhysicalPlant/Recochemlacquerthinner.pdf
Jim Slaughter
It is the only thinner that will work with your Butyrate dope.
"Ed Paasch" <bigedm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:KWPah.4325$7d1...@newsfe13.lga...
Jim Slaughter
<Dan_Thom...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1164733475.5...@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Robbie and Laura Reynolds
You're oversimplifying. Most products sold as thinners for a specific
purpose contain a combination of many solvents. Look on the label of a
can of Balsarite some time. It contains toluene and xylene, among other
things. Most thinners are like that because the stuff wouldn't behave
properly without all of the ingredients.
As an example, I tried making my own formula of dope a few years ago. I
noticed that styrofoam (styrene) was not adversely affected by fuel, so
I reasoned that if I could figure out how to dissolve it I could paint
it on firewalls to fuel proof them. Toluene broke down the structure,
but the styrene formed a gooey lump separate from the liquid. Acetone
wouldn't break it down at all. But when I mixed the two, it formed a
nice paintable dope. I used it on one plane, but it was too stringy and
rather annoying to use. It would be a very cheap alternative if you
couldn't get anything else, though.
mjd
water.
"Ed Paasch" <bigedm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:KWPah.4325$7d1...@newsfe13.lga...
The Natural Philosopher
> "Ed Paasch" <bigedm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:KWPah.4325$7d1...@newsfe13.lga...
> | I'm working on a rubber-powered Guillow's kit just for fun and I
> picked up
> | some clear dope and dope thinner to cover it. When I bought the dope
> | thinner, I couldn't help but think I'd just paid way too much for some
> | rubbing alcohol.
> |
> | Can any of you veteran model builders out there tell me if my
> suspicions are
> | correct or not? I don't really know anything about dope or dope
> thinner,
> | other than I'll be needing it to add the tissue to my kit.
> |
> | Just curious and hoping to know more...
> |
> |
>
> Rubbing alcohol is 30% distilled water and 70% isopropyl alcohol. Not
> suitable for a dope thinner.
>
Water content is varaible.
Robbie and Laura Reynolds
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> Jarhead wrote:
> >
> > Rubbing alcohol is 30% distilled water and 70% isopropyl alcohol. Not
> > suitable for a dope thinner.
> >
> No, its ethyl alcohol and a little methanol.
>
> Water content is varaible.
You're referring to what we call denatured alcohol here in the states.
I don't know what they call it elsewhere, but it's ethyl with just
enough methanol in it to make it nontaxable under the liquor laws, and
you buy it in hardware stores. The product usually called rubbing
alcohol is in fact isopropyl.
Jarhead
"The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:116480594...@despina.uk.clara.net...
Strange! The percentages and content I posted were from the label of a
bottle that I purchased at the drug store. I guess they don't know
what's in their product.
Sport Pilot
Jim Slaughter wrote:
> lacquer thinner will not work with butyrate.
>
butyrate is a lacquer as well as nitrate dope. In fact you can use the
same thinner on either, though it may take more thinner with butyrate.
You can also use acrylic lacquer for your models which actually works
better than butyrate, at least if fills faster. A lscquer is any paint
which is simply a plastic product melted with a solvent and only
requires air drying of the solvent to dry. There is no curing.
Enamals requrie some type of curing or bonding where some chemical
change is taking place. They need special thinners or reducers which
do not have chemicals which may change or retard the curing reaction.
Sport Pilot
Some thinners have alcohol to absorb water to help prevent initial
blushing. Only so much methanol can be used as too much will cause the
resin to lump but methanol absorbs water better so sometimes they have
both methanol and isopropyl. Pure isopropyl is more expensive than
methanol as well. Thinners have chemicals which promote rapid drying
for primers, or products which slow down drying for an extra glossy
finish. Products made for the summer, winter, etc. If using
automotive thinner for dope tell the store what you are doing and they
should be able to get you what you need.
Ed Cregger
"Sport Pilot" <hppil...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:1164825580....@14g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>
> Jim Slaughter wrote:
>> lacquer thinner will not work with butyrate.
>>
> The only product you use with butyrate is lacquer thinner, because
> butyrate is a lacquer as well as nitrate dope. In fact you can use the
> same thinner on either, though it may take more thinner with butyrate.
> You can also use acrylic lacquer for your models which actually works
> better than butyrate, at least if fills faster. A lscquer is any paint
> which is simply a plastic product melted with a solvent and only
> requires air drying of the solvent to dry. There is no curing.
> Enamals requrie some type of curing or bonding where some chemical
> change is taking place. They need special thinners or reducers which
> do not have chemicals which may change or retard the curing reaction.
Then there was Aerogloss dope. It did not conform to standard butyrate
specs, if I recall correctly. Aerogloss and Testors were my favorites.
Testors seemed less fussy regarding thinner. Trying to mix the two finishes
on a model could be tricky.
Ed Cregger
The Natural Philosopher
>
Yeah?
Oh well. I thought denatured alcohol=surgical spirits=rubbing alcohol=
methylated spirits, with the only oddity being here in te UK it has
aniline to make it purple...when sold as 'meths'
Isopropyl alcohol is sold as 'screen cleaner' and 'car washer antifreeze :-)
John F. Hughes
Advanced warning: nothing here about modeling.
1. "Denatured Alcohol", in the US, is rather ill-defined. I spent a
week earlier in the summer trying to find the best denatured alcohol
for an old alcohol stove on a boat. I bought five or 6 kinds, tested
each, and checked the MSDS. The amounts of methanol ranged from 5% to
60% (yeah, 60, not 6!). The amounts of ethanol ranged from 90% down to
30%. And there was other crap mixed in, because it's too easy to do
fractional distillation of eth/meth mixes and get out just the
ethanol, at which point the stuff can be sold for a great deal more,
etc. The best stuff (for a pressurized alcohol stove) turned out to be
about 90% ethanol, but burned quite bright green because of some
additive, and left a nasty blue-green residue on stuff :-(.
2. "Rubbing Alcohol" is similarly under-defined. But MOST of what's
sold in drugstores is "Isopropyl Rubbing Alcohol," which is typically
somewhere around 70% isopropyl, 30% water. But that's not a standard
at all, and you should check the bottle to see what you're getting.
--John Hughes
cai...@aol.com
On Nov 27, 11:35 pm, "Ed Paasch" <bigedmust...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I'm working on a rubber-powered Guillow's kit just for fun and I picked up
> some clear dope and dope thinner to cover it. When I bought the dope
> thinner, I couldn't help but think I'd just paid way too much for some
> rubbing alcohol.
>
> Can any of you veteran model builders out there tell me if my suspicions are
> correct or not? I don't really know anything about dope or dope thinner,
> other than I'll be needing it to add the tissue to my kit.
>
> Just curious and hoping to know more...
Ed your suspicions are NOT correct. Dope thinner is dope thinner. Not
Alcohol.
If you have Aero Gloss "dope" stick with Aero Gloss products. It never
worked with anything and that has not changed over the years with EPA
noses stuck into citizen'e private business.
As for others, both Nitrate Dope (not "fuel proof" for nitro / alcohol
fuels) and Butyrate Dope (for the nitro fuels) are available. the best
suppliers in the hobby industry are SIG (repackaged Randopph Aircraft
Supply's dope) ane Brodak, also a Randolph product, but one vastly
improved over the regular stuff. Brodak is top stuff.
Acetone, Lacquer Thinner, and MEK will thin both Nitrate and Butyrate
dopes. They are fast drying and thus will induce a condition called
"Blush" a whitish streaking discoloration, especially in situations
where the humidity is above 50% humidity and/or warm air.
The use of regular Dope-Thinner will help prevent such condition. Both
SIG and Brodak supply a kind of thinner called "Reducer". This can be
taliored to conditions, will slow the drying processes and virtually
eliminate blush.
Almost a necessity unless you are in direct sun-light HOT air and
humidity well below 50%.
For a rubber powered machine, several very very thin coats of nitrate
will suffice. For those hand-rubbed 25 coats, try Brodak. If you want
the most professional finish possible, ask Lyman Slack, posted above.
He is the miracle worker with finishes. (;-))<
Ed Paasch
informative than I'd imagined it would turn out to be.
I, in fact, bought a one ounce jar of Midwest Aero Gloss clear and a one
ounce jar of Midwest Aero Gloss thinner. The thinner is labled as
containing methal isobutyl ketone. Since my local Hobbytown USA tagged me
for about $3.99 per one ounce jar (29.5ml), I just wanted to make sure I
wasn't being suckered and there might be a far cheaper alternative.
Thanks again for all of the replies.
"Ed Paasch" <bigedm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:KWPah.4325$7d1...@newsfe13.lga...
Ray Haddad
and "Ed Paasch" <bigedm...@hotmail.com> instead replied:
No. Dope thinner = Kevin Kline on a diet.
--
Ray
The Natural Philosopher
Robbie and Laura Reynolds
It sure would be easier if everything had the same name on both sides of
the ocean. I thought I had just about figured out the differences in
terminology, and now you tell me that they don't even use the same type
of alcohol for medical purposes in both countries....
The Natural Philosopher
Just wait till you want ammonia to bend balsa.
In the US its 'Windex' - here its Jeyes 'Power Clean' or something.
Sport Pilot
I use plain ole ammonia. The strong stuff that will knock you out if
you take a wiff.
Sport Pilot
I use plain ole ammonia. The strong stuff that will knock you out if
you take a wiff.
Robbie and Laura Reynolds
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> Just wait till you want ammonia to bend balsa.
>
> In the US its 'Windex' - here its Jeyes 'Power Clean' or something.
I don't know how it is in the UK, but here you can buy a bottle of plain
ammonia. A little bit goes a long way.
Six_O'Clock_High
Yes, it is commonly sold in the cleaning supplies isle ....
Ray Haddad
and "Six_O'Clock_High" <Six_O'Clock_High@Target_Lock.Guns> instead
replied:
There's a small island for ammonia? Who would have guessed?
--
Ray
Six_O'Clock_High
"Ray Haddad" <rha...@iexpress.net.au> wrote in message
news:3bobn25m2nve8jklh...@4ax.com...
Awwww.... Typo...aisle
Who would have known if it were not for your discerning eye?
Most folks use *in* an aisle when speaking of a market (grocery store, super
market, etc.) and *on* an isle when speaking of a chunk of land surrounded
by water. Guess...
Ray Haddad
and "Six_O'Clock_High" <Six_O'Clock_High@Target_Lock.Guns> instead
replied:
>"Ray Haddad" <rha...@iexpress.net.au> wrote in message
>news:3bobn25m2nve8jklh...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 18:00:11 GMT, I said, "Pick a card, any card"
>> and "Six_O'Clock_High" <Six_O'Clock_High@Target_Lock.Guns> instead
>> replied:
>>
>>>"Robbie and Laura Reynolds" <rob...@kcnet.com> wrote in message
>>>news:45732F13...@kcnet.com...
>>>>
>>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Just wait till you want ammonia to bend balsa.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the US its 'Windex' - here its Jeyes 'Power Clean' or something.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know how it is in the UK, but here you can buy a bottle of plain
>>>> ammonia. A little bit goes a long way.
>>>
>>>Yes, it is commonly sold in the cleaning supplies isle ....
>>
>> There's a small island for ammonia? Who would have guessed?
>
>Awwww.... Typo...aisle
Typo - shmypo. It had me laughing.
>Who would have known if it were not for your discerning eye?
I found it funny. As testimony, it would have been verbal and no one
would have noticed. Here, on the other hand . . .
>Most folks use *in* an aisle when speaking of a market (grocery store, super
>market, etc.) and *on* an isle when speaking of a chunk of land surrounded
>by water. Guess...
Pirates bury things in isles. It's what they do. Arghhhhhh!
--
Ray
ebhanso
I understand the desire to save money, however, as this thread seems to
have proved...there are many opinions and levels of expertise. Knowing
how fussy different products are in their use or combination with other
products, it seems more than prudent to stick with one manufacturer's
product line. Follow directions to the letter (including safety
recommendations). Trying to save a buck often ends up in ruining hours
of hard work on a model! Modelers by nature tend to be inquisitive,
inventive, and resourceful. These are great qualities, but they get us
into trouble all the time! Unless you are an Organic chemist, stick with
manufacturers recommendations and take the financial hit on the chin. By
the way, a Guillows kit is a small one, and so doesn't require much
material (dope in this case) whatsoever! Why sweat the cost of known
dope finishing systems (use their whole line of products for heavens
sake). Don't mix, and you shouldn't need to wonder.:)
--
ebhanso
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