K & B Resin ??
Denis Winters
any more. So what are you guys using now. I have the Concepts 1/4 Fleet
Biplane. The cowel is made up from balsa blocks. I used to just coat with
the resin sand and paint. What a good alternative ??
Denis Winters <><
Courseyauto
Denis Winters
or maybee I wasn't lookin ??
Denis <>
Courseyauto
And who makes the "Epoxy Resin" Not sure I have seen this ??
or maybee I wasn't lookin ??
Denis <>
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----------------
There is a resin available,usually in larger quanities. I usually just thin
epoxy glue (SIG brand ) with acetone,it will also slow down the drying time.
DOUG
CainHD
There aren't any items that replace the old K&B Polyester Finishing Resin. At
least I haven't found one.
OTOH, there is a good item that works well -- not like K&B -- and doesn't smell
nearly as bad as K&B.
That is ZAP epoxy FINISHING resin. It is more brittle and doesn't have the
sanding qualities but a couple coats will seal things up, especially over
glass. Primer is still required. Sanding can be enhanced with addition of some
micro-balloons, however some thinner may be required. Alcohol or epoxy thinner
from the hardware/home stores will work.
C G
>>O.K. Gang: I came back to modeling after about 5 years and no K & B resin
>>any more. So what are you guys using now. I have the Concepts 1/4 Fleet
>>Biplane. The cowel is made up from balsa blocks. I used to just coat with
>>the resin sand and paint. What a good alternative ??
>
>
> There aren't any items that replace the old K&B Polyester Finishing Resin. At
> least I haven't found one.
Get thee to a boat store. It's called polyester, or fiberglass, resin.
Very common. However, since it's also fairly toxic, learning to use
something else is not a bad thing.
Mike Gordon
Denis Winters wrote:
--
Mike Gordon AMA 320990
Remember RC Pylon Racing, the ultimate thrill, when Sex and Drugs just ain't enough.
jeboba
polyester (K&B, etc.) resin. That is why most people switched to epoxy many
years ago. Not only that, most of the better fiberglass fuselages, cowls,
etc. use epoxy resin for the same reason. Epoxy remains somewhat flexible
while polyester resin gets more and more brittle with age.
If you still want polyester resin, any boat store like Boat U.S.,
Westmarine, etc. will have it. They will also have epoxy resin.
"Denis Winters" <knu...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:415f12bb$0$26176$bb8e...@news.usenetcompany.com...
Tom Minger
that was equal to, if not the same as, the old K&B stuff. Try their web
site:
http://www.sigmfg.com/cgi-bin/dpsmart.exe/MainMenuFV3.html?E+Sig
You can also go to most marine hardware stores and buy "finishing" or
"surfacing" resin, which is also the same polyester stuff. Beware that their
are several flavors of resin in a marine store. There is a "bonding" resin
which is designed to adhere the cloth to the surface being glassed. It does
not ever get beyond the tacky stage of cure. Then there is a "covering"
resin designed to go over the bonding stuff and make a hard cure. Then there
is the "finishing" stuff designed to be easy(ier) to sand. TAP plasics also
sell a polyester resin, although I don't believe it is of the "finishing"
flavor. The finishing resin has more wax in it to aid in the sanding
properties.
"Denis Winters" <knu...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:415f12bb$0$26176$bb8e...@news.usenetcompany.com...
John F. Hughes
>
> You can also go to most marine hardware stores and buy "finishing" or
> "surfacing" resin, which is also the same polyester stuff. Beware that their
> are several flavors of resin in a marine store. There is a "bonding" resin
> which is designed to adhere the cloth to the surface being glassed. It does
> not ever get beyond the tacky stage of cure. Then there is a "covering"
> resin designed to go over the bonding stuff and make a hard cure. Then there
> is the "finishing" stuff designed to be easy(ier) to sand. TAP plasics also
> sell a polyester resin, although I don't believe it is of the "finishing"
> flavor. The finishing resin has more wax in it to aid in the sanding
> properties.
The information above could use a bit of amplification:
For polyester resin (the stuff you'll find at the auto-body shop,
for maybe$20/gallon, or at Boat/US, etc., and whose 'hardening
agent' might be 1 oz to the gallon of resin):
* The resin is constantly "hardening", so a 10-year-old bucket of
resin is likely to be just a plastic rock. The "hardener" is really
a *catalyst* (typically Methyl-Ethyl-Ketone (MEK) Peroxide), which
encourages the reaction to go faster. You adjust the amount of catalyst
depending on the temperature at which you're working, since warmth
is ALSO a catalyst for the reaction.
* Bonding resin is "air inhibited": it reaches a soft cure, but remains
tacky as long as it's in contact with air. (So when you put on a new
layer of fiberglass, the lower layer turns hard, rather than remaining
a gelatinous goo -- wouldn't be very strong, would it?).
* Finishing resin has some kind of 'wax' in it, which floats to the
surface and keeps air from getting to the resin during cure, which
allows it to harden up properly.
* The wax, as far as I know, is of no use in sanding. Indeed, it
tends to get mixed up with the sanding process and leave your
surface waxy, which is hard to paint; you need to use a special
de-waxing agent to get the surface ready to paint well.
----
For epoxy (which has two parts, of more or less equal volume [i.e., 1:1 or
2:1 or even 5:1, but not 50:1 mixing ratios], and which tends to cost
more (in the $80 - $120 per gallon range, more if bought in small
quantities):
* The reaction that cures epoxy comes from the mixing of the
two parts (resin, hardener). They can stay separate in their
cans for a LONG time without any ill effects. The mixing ratio
is *constant* (independent of temperature), but again, warmer temps
accelerate the hardening process. [In summer, I often keep
my mixing pot immersed in a dish of cold water to slow
the reaction.] The mixing ratio is also critical -- if it's
supposed to be 1:1, and you make it 1.5:1, you'll get a
rotten epoxy out of it.
* The hardening process often generates something called an "amide
blush" (a Google search on that term will give you more info than
you could ever want), which should be removed with a mild detergent
solution or it'll screw up paint adhesion for all but the most
aggressive paints. Some epoxy manufacturers claim to have no-blush
epoxies; some epoxy users dispute those claims. (Surprise!)
* Epoxies have found widespread use in boatbuilding, and folks
of all sorts have made fillers, additives, etc. for their epoxies.
You can find a pretty wide selection at Jamestown Distributors
(www.jamestowndistributors.com), although their prices are not
the best. I use them because they're just a couple of miles
from me.
* Epoxies are *generally* less brittle than polyester resins
after cure, but the wide range of chemistries available in
formulating an epoxy makes this statement somewhat manufacturer-
dependent.
* It's quite possible to make the same resin get cured with
two different hardeners with different characteristics. The
Gougeon brothers, who make WEST-System resins, have a "fast hardener"
and a "slow hardener", for instance. But unless you *really* know
your chemistry (in which case you probably wouldn't be reading
this), you should not mix and match, i.e., try to cure a WEST resin
with a System-3 hardener. The odds of success are near zero.
I hope this information is of use to someone out there.
--John (who has used a lot of epoxy, and polyester, resin building
boats over the years)
CainHD
>polyester (K&B, etc.) resin.
Methinks this person NEVER used K&B Finishing resin. It ain't jest all the
same!!
I used several resins finishing CL speed models, and RC models.
IMO there never WAS or has there BEEN anything to compare to the old K&B
FINISHING resin or the K&B Super Poxy paints (Not the later line) especially
when factoring in "User Friendly".
I have not yet used the newer Klass Kote line but I will as soon as I need a
good finish better than polyurethane.
BTW Sig is good, but the old K&B it ain't.
HC
Courseyauto
* The hardening process often generates something called an "amide
blush" (a Google search on that term will give you more info than
you could ever want), which should be removed with a mild detergent
solution or it'll screw up paint adhesion for all but the most
aggressive paints. Some epoxy manufacturers claim to have no-blush
epoxies; some epoxy users dispute those claims. (Surprise!)
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------
I recomended Sig 30 minute epoxy because it doesn't have this problem and is
easy to sand and doesn't clog up the sandpaper.
When i was building RC racing Hydro's that were made of plywood and foam,i
would use a mixture of the Sig epoxy glue and acetone to thin it like water so
it wood soak into the wood. It sanded very easy,i then sprayed a primer coat on
and it was readt to paint. DOUG
Denis Winters
work with that :
Thanks Gang
Denis Winters <><
jeboba
"John F. Hughes" <jfh...@SPAMcs.brown.edu> wrote in message
news:slrncm011...@cslab9f.cs.brown.edu...
jeboba
K&B resin and paint. My only complaint was always that it was too brittle. I
switched my finishes to "Imron" and other polyurethane based two part auto
paints because it didn't 'chip' so bad as K&B. I switched all of my resin
use to epoxy for the same reason. I built formula 1 pylon racers by the
boatload for people back in the 70's and 70's. Since I had a lot of K&B on
hand, I offered the airplanes finished either with K&B or Imron. NOBODY
opted for the K&B. The secrets are in the preparation and application. You
DO HAVE TO KNOW what you're doing to get as good a finish with the
polyurethane. The K&B paints were so thin you could pretty much shoot em
right out of the can. The poly's require reducing and you'd better get it
right. More amatuer painters probably found K&B easier. I didn't. I have
now switched to giant scale warbirds and use acrylic (latex house paint)
exclusively. If you're not looking for super shiny, it's the best yet. You
DO have to use High Volume Low Pressure spray equipment to get a really good
finish with it so it's probably not the best for less experienced painters.
The main thing is, use what works best for you. I haven't looked at the
Klass Kote either because I am really enjoying the HUGE cost advantage of
latex!
"CainHD" <cai...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041003122957...@mb-m04.aol.com...
Ted Campanelli
great (and sometimes not so great) words of knowledge:
Why not look into 1/2 oz glass cloth applied with water base
polyurethane ? Strong, lightweight finish that is easy to sand and
takes a finish quite well AND THERE ARE NO FUMES.
Paul McIntosh
There are many paints that are better than just about anything
model-specific. Modern automotive finishes are far more flexible than the
average hobby product. you can add the flex additives to many of them and
they will not break on the new plastic bumpers.
I have used auto base coat/clear coat systems on several planes. Not only
is it lighter, but also nearly indestructible and fuel PROOF to at least 60%
nitro (the highest I ever used).
Regarding resins, I have always used Z-Poxy finishing resin. It is
flexible, easy to sand and holds primers very well. May epoxy resins have a
hard time accepting primers unless the surface is thoroughly sanded first.
--
Paul McIntosh
http://www.rc-bearings.com
"CainHD" <cai...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041003122957...@mb-m04.aol.com...
Doug Dorton
should be available at you LHS.
A good altenative is Tap Plastics Super-Hard Epoxy Resin. Used to go
by the name "4 to 1 Epoxy." It has a very hard cure and sands very
nicely.
http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=29&
Great for doing what you have in mind. Also for 'lost mold' cowls
from foam.
"Denis Winters" <knu...@charter.net> wrote in message news:<415f12bb$0$26176$bb8e...@news.usenetcompany.com>...
jeboba
"Ted Campanelli" <tc...@grumpyoldmen.com> wrote in message
news:SzZ7d.6324$Rf1....@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
Brad
modeling after about 3 years. I started the P-39 Airacobra back then, I plan
to finish and fiberglass and paint the plane. This thread has been great for
me, I have been trying my first glassing recently. You guys keep going with
as many details as possible. Also I did not know you could thin Epoxy with
Acetone, is this okay to do. I recently glassed the center section of the
wing on a Bingo kit for practice, also the stab and fin. It turned out okay
but I would like to improve before starting on the P-39. I used the very
expensive z-poxy and would like to find a cheaper alternative. I also found
it interesting that one of the guys is using ordinary house paint, I would
love some details on that if you read my post.
Thanks (great thread)
Brad
"Ted Campanelli" <tc...@grumpyoldmen.com> wrote in message
news:SzZ7d.6324$Rf1....@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
jeboba
polyurethane clear finish.
"Brad" <bdarne...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:JdedncHWKIq...@comcast.com...
jeboba
"Brad" <bdarne...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:JdedncHWKIq...@comcast.com...
C.O.Jones
"jeboba" <jeb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kt_8d.4876$eq1.1967@trnddc08...
> DON'T use acetone to thin epoxy, use denatured alcohol!
OK! But why? Not that I ever have. But I can see where, to the
uninformed, acetone might be seen as a natural substitute for the alcohol.
jeboba
Acetone also evaporates too quickly. Alcohol is THE prescribed thinner for
epoxy.
"C.O.Jones" <ifyou...@yougotit.com> wrote in message
news:O6%8d.255$233.231@okepread05...
Brad
fill the weave very well. Have you had any problems with this? When you
paint does the fiberglass show through.
Bradnews:Is_8d.4874$eq1.3290@trnddc08...
jeboba
coat to help fill the weave. When that is completely dry, sand and primer.
Use a primer/filler, not a primer/sealer. The primer is what will fill the
weave. Sand down the primer before color coating. You can use about any
spray can primer. I use the Duco auto paint stuff from the local auto parts
store. I use latex paint for color coats. You can put a final gloss coat of
clear polyurethane on it if you want it a bit shinier.
"Brad" <bdarne...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:zeCdnVnSSZA...@comcast.com...
Brad
lightly sanded. Tomorrow I plan to put the primmer on and prep for painting.
With two coats and no primmer it is already starting to smooth out. The
primmer should finish the job nicely. I do not have a air gun yet so I plan
to just use Lustercote paint for the time being. Before I start the P-39 I
will purchase a gun, and master this fiberglassing stuff.
Thanks Again,
Brad Darnellnews:2A39d.8751$r3.2226@trnddc05...
James D Jones
one should use alcohol rather than acetone for thinning epoxy?
I have used both, and I much prefer using acetone. (Actually,
I use lacquer thinner which is mostly acetone.) I find that
due to the faster evaporation and lack of water retention, it
does a better job.
What reason do you have for choosing alcohol?
Jim - AMA 501383
Courseyauto
Jim - AMA 501383
I agree,there are also a lot more uses for the acetone than the alcohol.
DOUG - AMA 21449
C G
the preferred thinner. Did a quick search and skimmed through an
article I found which suggests that acetone, denatured alcohol or laquer
thinner are all ok. The only downside I read about acetone is it will
tend to cause the epoxy to turn darker. Here's the article I read:
http://www.seqair.com/skunkworks/Glues/WestSystem/Thinning/Thinning.html
Mike Norton
that I could use almost any alcohol, I switched for 2 reasons:
1) The alcohol dries more slowly, allowing more time to soak in. You could
use Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK), but it is a carcinogen.
2) It is not as explosive. Denatured alcohol has (I think) a flash point of
about 50 deg. F or so. Acetone is well below zero.
It's also cheap. Surprisingly, you can use almost any alcohol. I don't use
rubbing alcohlo (30% water) because it takes the epoxy about a week to
harden fully in the summer, but 91% is good if you want it to soak in.
"James D Jones" <texasr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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