Litco won't sell me an Alpha 4 :-(
Roger Neal
of the charger I'm developing. It sounds like they are thinking I am
interested in copying their charger. I would like to say openly that
the only thing negative I have feelings about Litco or Alpha 4 is their
never ending waiting list. I was hoping to get an Alpha 4 to use this
season while I develop my charger, and then sell it on eBay for $320
;-) I want to let every one know that I recommend getting an Alpha 4 if
you can. It will take a while before the Compucharger that I'm working
on will be ready for release. I will, however, expedite development
because I won't be getting no Alpha 4 from Litco. Litco refers to my
product as vaporware, but vaporware charges as many batteries as a
waiting list does.
Anyway, for the record:
1 I think the Alpha 4 is a great product from what I've heard and I do
not wish to do harm to Litco or their product. I just wish their supply
would meet the demand.
2 I do not want to copy the Alpha 4's hardware, software, algorithms,
multitasking, or anything else. If I were to copy the Alpha 4, I could
not sell it legally. I hope there is more difference between my charger
and the Alpha 4 than there is between the Alpha 4 and an Accu-Cycle.
Litco doesn't want to sell Alpha 4's to anyone "engaged in and/or
assisting in an effort to develop
systems substantially similar to Litco Systems Alpha4."
http://home.att.net/~LitcoSys/legal.htm
As long as Litco keeps the Alpha 4 scarce, they shouldn't have much of a
problem!
I don't understand it, seems like they don't want to step up production
to meet the demand but they don't want anyone else to meet the demand
either.
--
Roger Neal
re...@midwest.net
daytripper
>On Wed, 03 May 2000 20:28:17 -0700, Roger Neal <re...@midwest.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Litco doesn't want to sell Alpha 4's to anyone "engaged in and/or
>>assisting in an effort to develop
>>systems substantially similar to Litco Systems Alpha4."
>
>
>Gee, I hope by requesting to be on your waiting list doesn't put any
>individual on Litco's black list.
>
>But I'm sure Litco is not trying to squelch honest competition, just
>illegal theft of copyrights and/or patents
>
>Roger, did Litco indicate whether they saw all your posts and website, or
>if someone "tipped them off"
Peter used to keep an eye on this group in years past, he probably still does.
In any case, "rumour has it" that every component inside the A-4 has had all
identifying markings sanded off and/or chemically removed. One can imagine
that the analog components are generic anyway, and there's not much use in
even knowing which micro Peter used (the "secret sauce" is the code,
obviously).
So I for one think that Peter's being overtly paranoid, but on the other hand,
who the heck would want to be wondering if they gave their competition a
jump-start?
/daytripper
Roger Neal
>
> On Wed, 03 May 2000 20:28:17 -0700, Roger Neal <re...@midwest.net> wrote:
>
> >Litco doesn't want to sell Alpha 4's to anyone "engaged in and/or
> >assisting in an effort to develop
> >systems substantially similar to Litco Systems Alpha4."
>
> Gee, I hope by requesting to be on your waiting list doesn't put any
> individual on Litco's black list.
>
> But I'm sure Litco is not trying to squelch honest competition, just
> illegal theft of copyrights and/or patents
>
> Roger, did Litco indicate whether they saw all your posts and website, or
> if someone "tipped them off"
>
>
> (valid e-address.... user name = warch
> domain = rcwizard.com )
I'm not sure if they saw the posts or someone tipped them off, in the
sort of generic part of the e-mail, they sent this:
"
Pursuant to proceedings for redress Litco Systems Inc. has instituted an
inquiry into a pattern of alleged actions on the part of
individual/individuals against Litco Systems Inc. and its product
Alpha 4.
The alleged actions are set forth as follows:
1) Theft of Litco Systems Inc. intellectual property through attempts
at
reverse engineering of Litco Systems Alpha 4.
2) Organizing extensive and frequent Internet news group campaigns
for the
purpose of illegally effecting harm to Litco Systems Inc.
reputation
and its product Alpha 4.
3) Frequent Internet announcements of nonexistent products, commonly
referred
to as vaporware, as replacement for Alpha 4, and accompanied by
negative references to Litco Systems Inc. and its
product
Alpha 4 for the illegal
purpose of effecting harm to Litco Systems Inc. and its product
Alpha 4
and for the purpose of fraudulently diverting sales from Alpha 4.
"
Between this and their legal page, it sounds like they think they are
the only ones that can use the electronic hardware they use. They are
not the only company that can use buck/boost converters/regulators,
microprocessors, A/D converters,... they sort of sound like a Microsoft
wannabe for R/C battery chargers. I'm not real sure how legal it is to
try to control who can and who can't buy a product but I'm not going to
persue it. I'm not playing any of those kinds of games, if Litco wants
to purchase a charger from me after they are complete, I'll send them
one, however they might have to be put on a waiting list :-) Litco
refusing to sell me an Alpha 4 just gives me that much more motivation
to get my own charger developed that much faster.
--
Roger Neal
re...@midwest.net
Roger Neal
Now I understand, Litco can't speed up production because they are busy
sanding numbers off of components! They probably couldn't find a board
house that could sand numbers off of components while they stuffed the
boards:-)
This makes no sense, to copy the Alpha 4, you would have to copy the
circuit boards and the firmware then you couldn't sell it because it
would be illegal and the one you made would cost too much because of
board developing setup charges, etc. So, what would sanding off the
numbers from chips do? Just make it more difficult to do something that
wouldn't be practical anyway.
If I was offered the source code for the Alpha 4, I wouldn't want it
because it's not that hard to write software to regulate voltage and
current for battery charging and discharging. I've been writing code at
work for an 8 station machine that assembles light bulb sockets and puts
bulbs in them for automotive manufacturing, it has 8 stations, using
over 100 inputs and outputs, that run simultaneously and I didn't need
to use "sophisticated multitasking" software, you just have to write the
program correctly. Multitasking unnecessarily requires extra clock
cycles while the processor saves its place in one task so that it can go
to the other task. The main problem I'm going to have is getting the
electronics perfected, but that isn't that big of a problem, just takes
some time.
--
Roger Neal
re...@midwest.net
bspeed
products.
Fact was, the stuff was simple, and no one gave a hoot anyway.
The boss looked pretty foolish, onlyhe did not know it :)
Typical of certain paranoid/Phd types.
daytripper wrote:
>
> On Thu, 04 May 2000 02:13:18 GMT, Bill Archibald <nos...@myISP.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 03 May 2000 20:28:17 -0700, Roger Neal <re...@midwest.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Litco doesn't want to sell Alpha 4's to anyone "engaged in and/or
> >>assisting in an effort to develop
> >>systems substantially similar to Litco Systems Alpha4."
> >
> >
> >Gee, I hope by requesting to be on your waiting list doesn't put any
> >individual on Litco's black list.
> >
> >But I'm sure Litco is not trying to squelch honest competition, just
> >illegal theft of copyrights and/or patents
> >
> >Roger, did Litco indicate whether they saw all your posts and website, or
> >if someone "tipped them off"
>
Bill Archibald
>Litco doesn't want to sell Alpha 4's to anyone "engaged in and/or
>assisting in an effort to develop
>systems substantially similar to Litco Systems Alpha4."
Gee, I hope by requesting to be on your waiting list doesn't put any
individual on Litco's black list.
But I'm sure Litco is not trying to squelch honest competition, just
illegal theft of copyrights and/or patents
Roger, did Litco indicate whether they saw all your posts and website, or
if someone "tipped them off"
-bill
Herb Winston
I have a Litco Alpha 4 & wasn't really interested in your quest, but the
more I read or this negative paranoia from Litco, the more I'm interested in
your product, when available. Let me know how to be placed on your "waiting
list". Incidentally, you might be aware the Litco voids the warranty on your
unit if they find that the case has been opened. Looks to me that they don't
want any "peeking" inside the unit.
--
Herb Winston, High Flyer
"Roger Neal" <re...@midwest.net> wrote in message
news:39110B...@midwest.net...
> daytripper wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 04 May 2000 02:13:18 GMT, Bill Archibald <nos...@myISP.com>
wrote:
> >
> >
does.
> >
> > In any case, "rumour has it" that every component inside the A-4 has had
all
> > identifying markings sanded off and/or chemically removed. One can
imagine
> > that the analog components are generic anyway, and there's not much use
in
> > even knowing which micro Peter used (the "secret sauce" is the code,
> > obviously).
> >
> > So I for one think that Peter's being overtly paranoid, but on the other
hand,
> > who the heck would want to be wondering if they gave their competition a
> > jump-start?
> >
> > /daytripper
>
>
ms566395
haven't lost any models due to battery failure. What a crock of - uh - stew.
Yeah, that's the ticket. Stew!
--
Ed Cregger
ecre...@mindspring.com
Roger Neal <re...@midwest.net> wrote in message
news:391102...@midwest.net...
Marty Hammersmith
What are you guy's doing? We R/C types are supposed to be a little
smarter than the average bear. In this country we love tearing people
down don't we? Here we have Litco Systems that has designed and sells
THE battery management system of all times. At $219 it's a bargain
compared to the alternatives and they even purposely hold down the
volume to maintain the quality. I can't think of ANY other product that
became popular that wasn't mass produced to meet demand and didn't lose
quality. I applaud Peter and Litco systems.
With regards to voiding the warranty if the box is opened, let's be
fair here, this is standard practice for electrical devices. They don't
need unskilled consumers poking around in their discharging capacitors
up their arm, zapping IC's etc.
--
Marty Hammersmith
Herb Winston
"Marty Hammersmith" <bal...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:390FFE7B...@worldnet.att.net...
Barry Burke Jr.
>Most electrical devices usually have some type of warning about opening
>the box to prevent anyone suffering harm from electric shock & surely that's good advice.
Marty means STATIC DISCHARGE. <G> It has nothing to do with the user
getting injured, but everything to do with injuring components and
creating more warranty work.
Try asking Jeeves what "ESD" or "Electrostatic Discharge" is. From
http://www.ask.com :
Barry
--
*********************************************
nos...@snet.net _IS_ my real email address
No changes are needed to reply
http://www.bburke.com
*********************************************
Marty Hammersmith
That's right Barry. I think Peter has a right to insist we stay out of
the box if we expect him to warrant the product. The average consumer
isn't going to do any good by opening the case but he sure can screw it
up. Look at computer hard drives, etc. These companies all void
warranties if seals, tattles are tampered. Nothing unusual here.
Good luck to Roger and let's support his effort but not by trying to
tear down Litco Systems. They are top notch in my book and they were in
everyone else's too until Roger started TALKING about building his own
charger. What bothers me most is that simply TALKING about an
alternative charger was enough to begin these discussions on Peter and
the company with claims of paranoia, and excessive efforts to protect
their proprietary information.
--
Marty Hammersmith
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
wrote:
>... Litco
>refusing to sell me an Alpha 4 just gives me that much more motivation
>to get my own charger developed that much faster.
As the fellow said at the end of Dr. Strangelove, "Yeeeeeeeee hawwww!"
Go, Bill! You shouldn't be hanging around the keyboard. Get
back to that work table and burn some solder. ;o)
Keep me on your waiting list. I've never signed up for
A-4's list. I'm excited about your project for many reasons.
It sounds like it will be a lot of fun to play with when it's done.
Marty
steve_c...@my-deja.com
Another example of a small outfit with an excellent product refusing to
expand for the sake of profit is Vic Campbell's "V Blades"; some of the
best heli blades extant. He did hire a couple more people and increase
production somewhat, but the product is still hand-made; each and every
one. It shows, and like the Alpha 4, people are standing in line to buy
them. Those who don't want to wait, buy something else- usually of
lesser quality.
Personally, I could care less if they sand the numbers off the boards or
whatever. The Alpha 4 is hands-down the best battery management system
out there that I've seen, and I am waiting in line for my second one.
Roger isn't the only one trying to exploit this vacuum; ynt Designs is
working on a new charger as well. That's business enterprise; more power
to them and to Roger. I wish both success. But criticizing Litco for
trying to protect the "secrets" of their overwhelmingly successful
product sounds to me a lot like that bonehead who has been whining on
this newsgroup because clubs won't let him use their facilities to
charge fees for flight instruction...
Steve
In article <390FFE7B...@worldnet.att.net>,
bal...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
>
> What are you guy's doing? We R/C types are supposed to be a
little
> smarter than the average bear. In this country we love tearing people
> down don't we? Here we have Litco Systems that has designed and sells
> THE battery management system of all times. At $219 it's a bargain
> compared to the alternatives and they even purposely hold down the
> volume to maintain the quality. I can't think of ANY other product
that
> became popular that wasn't mass produced to meet demand and didn't
lose
> quality. I applaud Peter and Litco systems.
> With regards to voiding the warranty if the box is opened, let's
be
> fair here, this is standard practice for electrical devices. They
don't
> need unskilled consumers poking around in their discharging capacitors
> up their arm, zapping IC's etc.
>
> --
>
> Marty Hammersmith
>
> http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/hangar/1071
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Bob Cowell
All the great comments from the select few who are able to actually GET a Litco
unit do not negate the fact that in order to get one, You have to be able to
access their website within the 27 second window that they are actually
accepting new members to the waiting list, and then wait an additional X months
before you actually GET one.
So How good is a Litco??
I guess I will never know, because I refuse to try to force my hobby dollars on
someone who obviously does not want my business.
It is NOT an immutable law that quality HAS to decline with increased
production. It IS possible to maintain tight quality control if properly done.
What will happen is that with increased production, more bad units will get out
the door, NOT NECESSARILY a higher percentage of the production.
As to whether or not you void the warranty by opening the case, I suspect that
for most of us, there would not be any objection if the case were permanently
welded shut just as long as the unit worked. On the other hand, there are
always the curious types who simply MUST see "what's in the box"
It is a truly silly game they are playing here, and I decline to participate.
bob
On Thu, 04 May 2000 10:23:57 GMT, Marty Hammersmith <bal...@worldnet.att.net>
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
<bal...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>... In this country we love tearing people
>down don't we?
No. I love technology and competition. No offense to
Litco, but RN's Compucharge (such as it is) is part of
the free market system.
Marty
Herb Winston
"Barry Burke Jr." <nos...@snet.net> wrote in message news:39115998...@snet.net...
Bill Archibald
Roger,
The message you received from Litco, to me, indicates that they perceive
you as being serious about your endeavor. They obviously have every right
to protect their product and their reputation......and I am sure you do
not disagree with this. I think the notice is the legal equivalent of a
friendly warning for you to make sure your device is totally original and
that you may not slander the Alpha 4 to promote yours
As you have stated many times, you are just trying to fill the need of the
many people who can not acquire an Alpha 4. You are just trying to produce
ANOTHER top quality battery maintenance system. Considering the amount of
devices that use rechargeable batteries, certainly the market can support
more than a couple of these.
I think the best course of action for you is to carry on with your quest
but to get in your mind that Litco and the Alpha 4 DO NOT EXIST.
Completely remove that system from your mind, your conversations, and your
writings.
I think it would be very honorable of you to send Litco one of your
compuchargers. If Peter feels a necessity to file an infringement suit,
them he would need to disclose the full workings of his
system.......something he apparently does not care to do.
good luck to all.
-bill
On Wed, 03 May 2000 21:52:29 -0700, Roger Neal <re...@midwest.net> wrote:
>
>one, however they might have to be put on a waiting list :-) Litco
>refusing to sell me an Alpha 4 just gives me that much more motivation
>to get my own charger developed that much faster.
>
Marty Hammersmith
Wow, excellent comments Bill. I couldn't have penned it better.
--
Marty Hammersmith
Donp
If you really expected Litco to sell you one of their Alpha 4 units, then you
must be
somewhat naive. With all the wave's you have been making lately about
developing a new cycler/charger, why would you ever expect them to sell
an Alpha 4 to you. Time for a reality check.
My Alpha 4 should be here this week and I cannot wait to use it.
Don Paquette
Alex
> unit if they find that the case has been opened. Looks to me that they
don't
> want any "peeking" inside the unit.
That is pretty standard actually, it saves them having to repair problems
caused by the customer (eg static damage etc etc) under warranty.
I looked at the Alpha 4, and it didn't seem to me that it was worth the
price premium over the Hitec 335. Just my opinion (please don't sue me
Liteco :-)
Alex C
Bill Archibald
>Hear, hear, Marty.
>
>Another example of a small outfit with an excellent product refusing to
>expand for the sake of profit is Vic Campbell's "V Blades"; some of the
>best heli blades extant. He did hire a couple more people and increase
>production somewhat, but the product is still hand-made; each and every
>one.
Ya know, I was re-thinking Peter's motivation not to increase production
by hiring other assemblers or farming out production.
Now, it has been stated that Peter builds them by himself due to his
desire to maintain his high standards of quality. But you know what, given
the tone of his letter to Roger, I was wondering if he really is just
afraid his design and code would be ripped off by anyone helping assemble
the Alpha 4.
How many times in the history of humanity has this
happened.........especially in today's hi-tech field .
This is pure speculation taken from my reading between the lines of his
letter to Roger. I do not fault him for this caution.
-bill
Red Scholefield
comprehend what Peter has openly made available in the Litco FAQ section
of his web site. He has pretty well outlined what is required and what he
is doing with the charge/discharge algorithms.
Others are implementing charge/discharge maintenance schemes that reflect
their beliefs regarding what they have been preaching on batteries more
than they reflect what the battery manufactures try to tell them or what
sound engineering investigation will support.
Red S.
Red's R/C Battery Clinic
http://yoda.fdt.net/~redscho
matthew
all
> identifying markings sanded off and/or chemically removed
Doesn't matter. You can have the plastic case removed, and read the part
number directly off the die for any silicon part.
--
Matthew Orme
Orme Design http://www.orme.org
4568 Calle Argolla, Camarillo, Ca 93012,
Phone/Fax:(805)987-1777
Microsoft "Where do you want to go today? It doesn't matter, you're coming
with us."
for answers to your electric questions, sign up for the eflight list at
http://www.ezonemag.com
pugsl...@my-deja.com
design/build cars for Ford should be refused at
Chevy dealers?
RBarkus
Donp wrote:
>
> > Roger
>
> If you really expected Litco to sell you one of their Alpha 4 units, then you
> must be
> somewhat naive. With all the wave's you have been making lately about
> developing a new cycler/charger, why would you ever expect them to sell
> an Alpha 4 to you. Time for a reality check.
Do all the Chevy execs only drive GM cars or trucks? Or do you think
that they might very well drive Mercedes, Ford or any other NON GM car
or truck? If they do...... who sold them a NON GM car or truck??
Robert
Steve
Bill,
It would seem to me, anyone that wants to reverse engineer, or steal his
design, for the purpose of making a similar product, wouldn't't balk at
spending a few hundred, or even a few thousand, to purchase a few units for
the purpose of reverse engineering. With the high price of manufacturing
and marketing to startup production, it would be a drop in the bucket for
startup costs. This is what usually happens, especially when the purchase
price is as low as a few hundred as in this case.
Based on the comments of a few that have peaked inside, and know
electronics design quite well, the design is good, but there are no real
big secrets there. Its not rocket science, but more of being first to
market with a product that was sorely needed.
Rumors are that other units are coming to market.
Steve
aerogra...@my-deja.com
not a moral one but quite legal "I think"!!!
Roger Forgues
http://www.aerografixs.com
n article <X28RObBRDRJkfs...@4ax.com>,
> (valid e-address.... user name = warch
> domain = rcwizard.com )
>
DanD Blueskies
I heard a good one a while back. When the trophy maker was challanged by the 'new' store, he welcomed the competition...He said
they would only make him look good...
The Alpha 4, IMHO, is highly over-rated. It is nice to have all the bells and whistles in one package, but all those things can be
done with the gizmos I have in my basement, etc...
Anyway, have fun...
--
DanD
AMA L307
To reply, remove the not and 1
<http://my.voyager.net/gingerd/>
------------------------------------------------
MrPete37
wall chargers have Ace Dual Add-A-Trickle(old ones). I'm a wet kind of R/Cer so
I have no need for any other kind of charger/cycler. My set-up does just what I
need it to do, 4.8 and 6 volt recvr packs and 9.6 transmitter packs. Pretty
basic but it all works extremely well for my "R/C" needs. But what I "want" is
a whole'nother "ball-o-earwax".............
Pete C. Maurek
Wichita Falls Texas
Roger Neal
>
> Roger,
>
> The message you received from Litco, to me, indicates that they perceive
> you as being serious about your endeavor. They obviously have every right
> to protect their product and their reputation......and I am sure you do
> not disagree with this. I think the notice is the legal equivalent of a
> friendly warning for you to make sure your device is totally original and
> that you may not slander the Alpha 4 to promote yours
>
> As you have stated many times, you are just trying to fill the need of the
> many people who can not acquire an Alpha 4. You are just trying to produce
> ANOTHER top quality battery maintenance system. Considering the amount of
> devices that use rechargeable batteries, certainly the market can support
> more than a couple of these.
>
> I think the best course of action for you is to carry on with your quest
> but to get in your mind that Litco and the Alpha 4 DO NOT EXIST.
> Completely remove that system from your mind, your conversations, and your
> writings.
>
> I think it would be very honorable of you to send Litco one of your
> compuchargers. If Peter feels a necessity to file an infringement suit,
> them he would need to disclose the full workings of his
> system.......something he apparently does not care to do.
>
> good luck to all.
>
> -bill
You make a lot of sense, I'll take the money I had reserved for an Alpha
4 and buy components to get my charger going faster. That way I can
charge my batteries this season while testing out the charger. The
truth is that the main reason I wanted and Alpha 4 is to use, I like the
idea of keeping all my batteries ready for flying. My starter has a
tough time starting my heli with the YS91 four stroke, I have to keep a
good charge on the gel cell. I have peak chargers for the TX and RX but
the floating Gel cels and Wet cells sounds nice. And with the resale
value of Alpha 4's, I didn't think I could go wrong.
I stated that I'm designing a charger that will meet or exceed the Alpha
4's specifications, however, this doesn't mean I'm trying to clone or
copy an Alpha 4. The Alpha 4 meets and exceeds the specifications of an
Accu Cycle but it doesn't mean that the Alpha 4 is a copy of an Accu
Cycle. I don't think Hobbico would have refused to sell Litco an Accu
Cycle when they were developing the Alpha 4.
Like I've said all along, the only thing negative I have to say about
the Alpha 4 is the lack of availability. I have difficulty believing
the production/quality story because the average home and auto is full
of mass produced electronics that is relatively trouble free. I don't
change radio's every 50,000 miles in my car. My cheap wrist watch works
for years, I don't have to be put on a waiting list to buy good servo's,
or any other good quality electronics equipment. If Litco is making
money building X many chargers per production run, couldn't they make
more money if they made 2X as many chargers per production run? If it's
true about Litco removing the numbers from the components, they probably
don't want to mass produce because they are afraid someone will steal
their design.
I appreciate all the feedback, a lot of the ideas that I want to put
into my charger are coming from these postings, to address problems
others have had or are having.
--
Roger Neal
re...@midwest.net
Roger Neal
>
> > Roger
>
> If you really expected Litco to sell you one of their Alpha 4 units, then you
> must be
> somewhat naive. With all the wave's you have been making lately about
> developing a new cycler/charger, why would you ever expect them to sell
> an Alpha 4 to you. Time for a reality check.
>
>
> Don Paquette
Battery chargers aren't exactly top secret, Microchip has a free design
that is available to all at:
http://www.microchip.com/10/Appnote/Category/rDesigns/index.htm
PICREF-2 Intelligent Battery Charger.
It probably isn't all that different than an Alpha 4.
Do you think that competing battery chargers weren't available to
Litco's developer? Most are freely available, the Alpha 4 is the only
one I know of with an ongoing waiting list. Most manufactures try to
keep their designs a secret until they are in production, they can't do
anything about it then. I'm sure they would prefer that the competition
not be able to examine the product of their labor but it happens all the
time, to every company except Litco. For that matter, maybe it isn't
safe for Litco to sell the Alpha 4, the buyer might decide to copy it or
build a better one! Who knows, someone might be on their waiting list
to sell one to me, it would be safest for Litco to recall all the Alpha
4's and keep them in a warehouse guarded so no one can copy it!
When you get your Alpha 4, be sure and think of all of us less
fortunate, you might want to feel a little guilty :-)
--
Roger Neal
re...@midwest.net
Roger Neal
>
> On Wed, 03 May 2000 21:52:29 -0700, Roger Neal <re...@midwest.net>
> wrote:
>
> >refusing to sell me an Alpha 4 just gives me that much more motivation
> >to get my own charger developed that much faster.
>
>
> Go, Bill! You shouldn't be hanging around the keyboard. Get
> back to that work table and burn some solder. ;o)
>
> Keep me on your waiting list. I've never signed up for
> A-4's list. I'm excited about your project for many reasons.
> It sounds like it will be a lot of fun to play with when it's done.
>
> Marty
Yeah, I checked and you're 4th on the list, not including the prototypes
Roger Neal
>
> Do you have a time frame laid out for your new charger? I need to block
> out some test time and arrange for lab facilities. Will you do the UL
> approval or will you need some help with that?
I don't have much of a time frame laid out yet, after I get a circuit
I'm happy with I'll have a better idea of getting everything else put
together. I'm planning to use a wal wart power supply, I saw some rated
for 12V, 3A for reasonable cost, I think this will get me around the UL
listing, that's what I heard anyway.
>
> What kind of production levels are you looking at?
I'm not sure what the demand will be, I have almost 60 on my waiting
list so far. Your guess would probably be more accurate than mine, what
do you think it would be if I get the charger to perform as described?
> Sourcing, components, production.... ???? I know some good houses in
> HongKong, we can probalby negoitate contracts with their agents on the
> west coast so you won't have to travel there. Rosilier is one of them,
> lots of cell phone charger and accessory experience as well as packaging.
For starters I plan to get components through Digikey, I think they have
everything I will need. I'm trying to design around more commonly
available parts so that substitutes will be available if any certain
part gets difficult to locate. If the demand is there for high enough
production I will certainly want to look into the production houses, but
the quality must be there since I plan to back it with a good warranty.
> Warranty provisions, return policy???? Repair after warranty period.
> Authorized repair centers????
The charger will not be difficult to repair, it will consist of two
boards, one controller board and one power board. The two boards will
plug together. The other components of the charger will be a display
and a keypad (probably 16 key). There are some repair centers that work
on R/C equipment, they may be interested in being an Authorized repair
center. I plan to design with a significant desing factor so that
repairs will be few and far between. The components will be overrated
and I will monitor temperature and rate of change of temperature and
adjust power output accordingly. That means if you're pushing the
charger hard, it will charge faster if a fan is blowing on it. I plan
to make the sides of the case out of finned aluminum for heatsinking.
There is an extruder nearby that makes extrusions for high power auto
audio amplifiers, they may end up being the source for cases.
> You need to block out some ad time so that the magazine lead time
> coincides with first product availability.
I will probably not instantly jump into high production, I would like to
catch any problems early and have several units being used before a
final version is ready for production. I hope to have a prototype
myself and get it to my satisfaction, then send one to you and refine it
to your satisfaction, then send some units out for "beta testing" and
finaly getting the production units out.
> Damn, this is going to be fun. Have not had so much excitement since the
> Eagle Claw cordless fishhook sharpener project.
I think it's a neat project with a lot of potential. By having the
flash upgradeable controller, users will be able to update their charger
with the latest features. I don't plan to stop development after
production, I plan to continue to upgrade and add features to the
software. I have to make sure the hardware is not too limiting from the
start though.
> I hope you are getting some kind of remuneration from Litco for all the
> publicity you are giving them. :-) Maybe enough for development, tooling
> AND marketing costs.
You would think they would at least add a link to my webpage! :-)
> Red S.
> Redscho Associates
> Portable Power System Consultants
I hope you'll help advise me in getting the charging algorithims to do
what they need to do, I don't have a problem with the programming but
I'm no battery expert (however I have learned a lot since beginning this
project!). I think I'll be learning a lot more when I start cycling
batteries with my prototype. I think I remember of seeing something on
your website about an hour a day of c/10 being better on batteries than
a trickle charge, this will be available as well as anything else that
you can think of that would be beneficial. The controller I'm planning
to use has a time and date clock, this will be real nice for tracking
battery info over time and also make the hour a day charging feature
easy to add.
--
Roger Neal
re...@midwest.net
Amar Shan
considerations dictate. Their manuals state that opening the box *will*
result in irreversible damage - in fact, undoing the screws on the bottom
of the box will result in irreversible damage - implying that the box
is "booby" trapped.
I am a user of the Alpha 4, and am a staunch fan of it.
Look - I don't like Litco's practice of booby trapping, either. On the
other hand, the R&D cost to develop such a unit is considerable -
and yet, the unit is easy to copy. The only thing Peter really owns
is the Intellectual Property associated with the unit.
An ounce of prevention (of copying) is probably worth a pound
of cure (in the form of litigation). N'est ce pas vrai?
Amar
Marty Hammersmith wrote:
> What are you guy's doing? We R/C types are supposed to be a little
> smarter than the average bear. In this country we love tearing people
> down don't we? Here we have Litco Systems that has designed and sells
> THE battery management system of all times. At $219 it's a bargain
> compared to the alternatives and they even purposely hold down the
> volume to maintain the quality. I can't think of ANY other product that
> became popular that wasn't mass produced to meet demand and didn't lose
> quality. I applaud Peter and Litco systems.
> With regards to voiding the warranty if the box is opened, let's be
> fair here, this is standard practice for electrical devices. They don't
> need unskilled consumers poking around in their discharging capacitors
> up their arm, zapping IC's etc.
Roger Neal
>
> Hear, hear, Marty.
>
> Another example of a small outfit with an excellent product refusing to
> expand for the sake of profit is Vic Campbell's "V Blades"; some of the
> best heli blades extant. He did hire a couple more people and increase
> production somewhat, but the product is still hand-made; each and every
> them. Those who don't want to wait, buy something else- usually of
> lesser quality.
>
> Personally, I could care less if they sand the numbers off the boards or
> whatever. The Alpha 4 is hands-down the best battery management system
> out there that I've seen, and I am waiting in line for my second one.
>
> Roger isn't the only one trying to exploit this vacuum; ynt Designs is
> working on a new charger as well. That's business enterprise; more power
> to them and to Roger. I wish both success. But criticizing Litco for
> trying to protect the "secrets" of their overwhelmingly successful
> product sounds to me a lot like that bonehead who has been whining on
> this newsgroup because clubs won't let him use their facilities to
> charge fees for flight instruction...
>
> Steve
>
> In article <390FFE7B...@worldnet.att.net>,
> >
> >
> > What are you guy's doing? We R/C types are supposed to be a
> little
> > smarter than the average bear. In this country we love tearing people
> > down don't we? Here we have Litco Systems that has designed and sells
> > THE battery management system of all times. At $219 it's a bargain
> > compared to the alternatives and they even purposely hold down the
> > volume to maintain the quality. I can't think of ANY other product
> that
> > became popular that wasn't mass produced to meet demand and didn't
> lose
> > quality. I applaud Peter and Litco systems.
> > With regards to voiding the warranty if the box is opened, let's
> be
> > fair here, this is standard practice for electrical devices. They
> don't
> > need unskilled consumers poking around in their discharging capacitors
> > up their arm, zapping IC's etc.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Marty Hammersmith
> >
> > http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/hangar/1071
> >
>
> Before you buy.
I think electronics would be easier to mass product than carbon fiber
blades. You can have a board house produce, stuff and solder the boards
and as long as the soldering is good and the parts are in the correct
place and orientation, the board will work if there are no bad
components. If one board comes out to weigh .5 gram higher than
another, it doesn't hurt, the center of gravity of the board isn't that
important either. V-blades would be difficult and expensive to mass
produce as they would require all special equipment. Electronics
components come in standard packages and automated machinery would not
have to be designed and built for the sole purpose of building Alpha 4
boards. On the otherhand, it would be difficult for a fiberglass place
to use one of their molds designed for something else and try to get
heli blades out of it:-)
--
Roger Neal
re...@midwest.net
Red Scholefield
out some test time and arrange for lab facilities. Will you do the UL
approval or will you need some help with that?
What kind of production levels are you looking at?
Sourcing, components, production.... ???? I know some good houses in
HongKong, we can probalby negoitate contracts with their agents on the
west coast so you won't have to travel there. Rosilier is one of them,
lots of cell phone charger and accessory experience as well as packaging.
Warranty provisions, return policy???? Repair after warranty period.
Authorized repair centers????
You need to block out some ad time so that the magazine lead time
coincides with first product availability.
Damn, this is going to be fun. Have not had so much excitement since the
Eagle Claw cordless fishhook sharpener project.
I hope you are getting some kind of remuneration from Litco for all the
publicity you are giving them. :-) Maybe enough for development, tooling
AND marketing costs.
Red S.
Redscho Associates
Portable Power System Consultants
James G. Branaum
"Roger Neal" <re...@midwest.net> wrote in message
news:391266...@midwest.net...
Besides, a good solder table is always a good solder table....
daytripper
>A correction, Marty - Litco's stance is much stronger than warranty
>considerations dictate. Their manuals state that opening the box *will*
>result in irreversible damage - in fact, undoing the screws on the bottom
>of the box will result in irreversible damage - implying that the box
>is "booby" trapped.
>
>I am a user of the Alpha 4, and am a staunch fan of it.
>
>Look - I don't like Litco's practice of booby trapping, either. On the
>other hand, the R&D cost to develop such a unit is considerable -
>and yet, the unit is easy to copy. The only thing Peter really owns
>is the Intellectual Property associated with the unit.
>
>An ounce of prevention (of copying) is probably worth a pound
>of cure (in the form of litigation). N'est ce pas vrai?
The same source of the "sanded components rumor" assures me that there are no
"booby-traps" inside the A-4 just waiting for someone to crack it open. Just a
rather awkward reassembly...
/daytripper
Wb4guk
>Red Scholefield wrote:
>>
>> Do you have a time frame laid out for your new charger? I need to block
>> out some test time and arrange for lab facilities. Will you do the UL
>> approval or will you need some help with that?
>
>I don't have much of a time frame laid out yet, after I get a circuit
>I'm happy with I'll have a better idea of getting everything else put
>together. I'm planning to use a wal wart power supply, I saw some rated
>for 12V, 3A for reasonable cost, I think this will get me around the UL
>listing, that's what I heard anyway.
This will probably satisfy the UL, but what about the FCC part 15 compliance
for any device above 10Khz? From your description, a microcontroller will be
used and I believe this testing would be required.
Dan Thompson (AMA 32873, IMAA 20735, EAA 60974, Ham call WB4GUK)
Sound engineering and good marketing are not always parallel paths.
Marty Hammersmith
What the hell page is THAT on? My manual says there is a tattle in
there and that we shouldn't open the case. I don't remember seeing
anything about a booby trap or that it will cause damage, only void the
warranty.
Amar Shan wrote:
>
> A correction, Marty - Litco's stance is much stronger than warranty
> considerations dictate. Their manuals state that opening the box *will*
> result in irreversible damage - in fact, undoing the screws on the bottom
> of the box will result in irreversible damage - implying that the box
> is "booby" trapped.
>
> I am a user of the Alpha 4, and am a staunch fan of it.
>
> Look - I don't like Litco's practice of booby trapping, either. On the
> other hand, the R&D cost to develop such a unit is considerable -
> and yet, the unit is easy to copy. The only thing Peter really owns
> is the Intellectual Property associated with the unit.
>
> An ounce of prevention (of copying) is probably worth a pound
> of cure (in the form of litigation). N'est ce pas vrai?
>
> Amar
Ray Shearer
a friend to order one for you. Then they could not sell to anyone near
your location. But what about a friend in another city, state, or
country. The only way they could prevent your getting one would be to
remove them from the market.
I've seen all forms of hidding components, removing markings, black
conformal coatings, dummy IC's, etc to prevent reverse engineering.
None of then work worth a damn against a good engineer. The ONLY way
to prevent reverse engineering is to remove the item from the market.
If Litco beleives they can prevent this by not selling to you, they
must have young engineers and business managers with little experience
with the real world. Makes me wonder if I would buy a Litco.
Ray S.
> fortunate, you might want to feel a little guilty :-)
>
> --
>
> Roger Neal
> re...@midwest.net
Marty Hammersmith
Ray, Ray, Ray. Litco is not some midsize company with young engineers,
business managers or a staff whatsoever. It's a person. Peter IS the
company. he might have a little help but the company doesn't exist
without him. As for not selling to Roger, they're backordered for
EVERYONE. If Roger wanted a unit he could get one easy enough. I'm sure
one of us would part with our unit for a reasonable profit. According to
him he doesn't want one to reverse engineer anyhow so I'm not real sure
what all this protection talk has to do with his charger design efforts.
Ray Shearer wrote:
>
> I'm suprised that Litco will not sell you a unit. You can always have
> a friend to order one for you. Then they could not sell to anyone near
> your location. But what about a friend in another city, state, or
> country. The only way they could prevent your getting one would be to
> remove them from the market.
>
> I've seen all forms of hidding components, removing markings, black
> conformal coatings, dummy IC's, etc to prevent reverse engineering.
> None of then work worth a damn against a good engineer. The ONLY way
> to prevent reverse engineering is to remove the item from the market.
> If Litco beleives they can prevent this by not selling to you, they
> must have young engineers and business managers with little experience
> with the real world. Makes me wonder if I would buy a Litco.
>
> Ray S.
--
Marty Hammersmith
Michael Neverdosky
In electronics (and many other areas) the people who do the most
to hide their *secrets* are not the ones with the really high tech
systems, they are the ones who are hiding how simple and marginal
their units are. They keep it secret so they can continue to demand
and get a high price.
Same thing for the low production. By keeping the production very low
the maintain a artificial demand. Some people want one (and are willing
to pay) just because they are hard to get and few people have one.
In electronics, high production items are nearly always more reliable
than low production items. This is because in the high production
everything (almost) is done by machines. The quality is higher and
the cost is lower. Labor is the big cost in most electronics.
There is a company making equipment for ham radio operators who
has a one year "no matter what" warranty. Not only will they fix
or replace the equipment if it doesn't work for any reason they
want the customer to try and fix it first. They provide the schematic,
theory of operation and parts list as a matter of course and they have
an 800 number that you can call and talk to a real tech who knows the
equipment completely. If you screw up the repair, just send the unit
in and they fix it.
There are not any real secrets left in electronics.
You don't make a great product by discovering a new secret way of doing
something.
You make it by doing a good design, using solid manufacturing and
quality control and then by taking good care of the customers.
That is if you are in it for the long haul.
OTOH as P.T. Barnum said, "There is a sucker born ever minute."
He is also credited with, "It is morally wrong to let a sucker
keep his money."
Litco is welcome to the business model they have choosen, it seems
to be working for them. They will never sell a charger to me under
their current system. There are too many companies out there who don't
need secrets to sell good equipment.
BTW What happens if Litco goes out of business the week after you
get your charger? In that case if it ever breaks you are SOOL.
michael N6CHV AMA 77292
Michael Neverdosky
that has only one source of supply or repair and that source is a
single person?????
In case of injury, illness, or even simple burnout the unit is an orphan.
If I have the technical data I can fix almost anything electronic.
Without data a failed unit is a paperweight.
A little guy will never beat the big guys by hiding *secrets* or using
patents or other such nonsense. The big company has more engineers,
lawyers and money to beat you down.
You can beat them by moving faster and/or never becoming a target.
Litco is doing fine as long as they are selling faster than they are
making the chargers. I hope they do well.
I also hope that the people who buy them don't end up with orphans
that can never be repaired.
michael N6CHV AMA 77292
bspeed
James G. Branaum
Ranch? You know, the one the state boys closed up by you?
LOL
"bspeed" <bsp...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:3912F7FA...@my-deja.com...
Roger Neal
>
> Donp wrote:
> >
> > > Roger
> >
> > If you really expected Litco to sell you one of their Alpha 4 units, then you
> > must be
> > somewhat naive. With all the wave's you have been making lately about
> > developing a new cycler/charger, why would you ever expect them to sell
> > an Alpha 4 to you. Time for a reality check.
>
> that they might very well drive Mercedes, Ford or any other NON GM car
> or truck? If they do...... who sold them a NON GM car or truck??
>
> Robert
>
> >
> >
> > Don Paquette
Maybe their should be background checks for all purchases of all
products to make sure that you, or no one in your family, or none of
your close friends are working for a competing company? :-) The
government would probably go for it if they could tax it!
Although I don't want to reverse engineer an Alpha 4, I would like to do
side by side comparisons with the charger I'm developing. Since the
Alpha 4 is currently the best, that sounds like the idea standard to
compare to for my development. I'm sure I can get a good start on fine
tuning charging algorithms by data logging and verifying results. Then
Red's testing should hopefully confirm and be in agreement with my
results, or it's back to the ol keyboard :-0
--
Roger Neal
re...@midwest.net
Amar Shan
"... DO NOT REMOVE SCREWS FROM BOTTOM OF THE UNIT.
SEVERE DAMAGE WILL RESULT."
That appears to be rather clear, does it not?
Amar
Marty Hammersmith wrote:
> What the hell page is THAT on? My manual says there is a tattle in
> there and that we shouldn't open the case. I don't remember seeing
> anything about a booby trap or that it will cause damage, only void the
> warranty.
>
> Amar Shan wrote:
> >
> > A correction, Marty - Litco's stance is much stronger than warranty
> > considerations dictate. Their manuals state that opening the box *will*
> > result in irreversible damage - in fact, undoing the screws on the bottom
> > of the box will result in irreversible damage - implying that the box
> > is "booby" trapped.
> >
> > I am a user of the Alpha 4, and am a staunch fan of it.
> >
> > Look - I don't like Litco's practice of booby trapping, either. On the
> > other hand, the R&D cost to develop such a unit is considerable -
> > and yet, the unit is easy to copy. The only thing Peter really owns
> > is the Intellectual Property associated with the unit.
> >
> > An ounce of prevention (of copying) is probably worth a pound
> > of cure (in the form of litigation). N'est ce pas vrai?
> >
> > Amar
> >
> > Marty Hammersmith wrote:
> >
> > > What are you guy's doing? We R/C types are supposed to be a little
> > > smarter than the average bear. In this country we love tearing people
> > > down don't we? Here we have Litco Systems that has designed and sells
> > > THE battery management system of all times. At $219 it's a bargain
> > > compared to the alternatives and they even purposely hold down the
> > > volume to maintain the quality. I can't think of ANY other product that
> > > became popular that wasn't mass produced to meet demand and didn't lose
> > > quality. I applaud Peter and Litco systems.
> > > With regards to voiding the warranty if the box is opened, let's be
> > > fair here, this is standard practice for electrical devices. They don't
> > > need unskilled consumers poking around in their discharging capacitors
> > > up their arm, zapping IC's etc.
> > >
BBrastad
course everybody thinks they have to have one. It is a MASTER marketing ploy.
This guy is no dummy.
O mclinn
free Litco's advertisement enough already don't you believe?
J.D.
>Ranch? You know, the one the state boys closed up by you?
>LOL
Closer to you than him (bspeed). Isn't he in the Dallas area?
Chicken Ranch was just outside LaGrange
J.D.
to e-mail, pull the post
Ray Shearer
protection. The more detailed the patent, the easier to get around.
Copyrights offer just about zero protection to a product.
Ray S.
> aerogra...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Unless Litco has a pattent on his design, its open season to anyone,
> not a moral one but quite legal "I think"!!!
> Roger Forgues
> http://www.aerografixs.com
>
> n article <X28RObBRDRJkfs...@4ax.com>,
> > On Wed, 03 May 2000 21:52:29 -0700, Roger Neal <re...@midwest.net>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >one, however they might have to be put on a waiting list :-) Litco
> > >refusing to sell me an Alpha 4 just gives me that much more
> motivation
> > >to get my own charger developed that much faster.
> > >
> >
> > (valid e-address.... user name = warch
> > domain = rcwizard.com )
> >
>
Warren May
> side by side comparisons with the charger I'm developing. Since the
> Alpha 4 is currently the best, that sounds like the idea standard to
> compare to for my development.
And NOBODY in the free world will sell you one of theirs used, not even for
a grossly inflated sum of money?
Marty Hammersmith
Come on Amar, that's not what that means. Those screws are holding
components together needed and are important for the heat sink and
cooling. It has nothing to do with Litco booby trapping the box so I ask
you again, where does it say you'll damage the box if you open it?
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
wrote:
>Unless a patent is very basic (Covers the basics) it offers little
>protection. The more detailed the patent, the easier to get around.
>Copyrights offer just about zero protection to a product.
I believe copyrights apply only to published materials. Printed
materials were the original instance covered by "the right to
copy"; analogous publications like TV and radio broadcasts,
software design, music, and artistic images have been subsumed
under the rules for print media. So far as I know, "copyright"
has nothing whatsoever to do with copying products; that
involves patent law, which, as Ray said, is a horse of a
different kettle of fish.
Marty
Steve
>Page 4 of the manual, 1/3 of the way down the page:
>
>"... DO NOT REMOVE SCREWS FROM BOTTOM OF THE UNIT.
>SEVERE DAMAGE WILL RESULT."
>
>That appears to be rather clear, does it not?
>
>Amar
>
Opening up the Alpha 4 unit will not damage it. Its been done, and it still
works when reassembled. If your unit is out of warranty (only a measly 6
month warranty), and you want to peek inside, you've got nothing to loose.
It will work the same after you open it up as it did before you opened it
up.
There's no magic inside. Its not bobby trapped. Its just a charger.
Or do we need to post pictures of the internals here to dispell this?
Stephen
ms566395
one. 8>)
--
Ed Cregger
ecre...@mindspring.com
O mclinn <omc...@aol.com> wrote
James G. Branaum
"J.D." <lee...@aol.compost> wrote in message
news:20000506022235...@ng-fm1.aol.com...
cg...@sc.rr.com
<ecre...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>I don't see where it's hurting anything. After all, you can't actually BUY
>one. 8>)
>--
>Ed Cregger
>ecre...@mindspring.com
ROTFLMAO!!
Jack
J.D.
>
Yeah, my mistake. Sheez, gotta start wearin' my glasses, again--{:-)
Helge Wunderlich
>> Roger
>
>If you really expected Litco to sell you one of their Alpha 4 units, then you
>must be
>somewhat naive.
Litco obviously think they can keep Roger from getting his hands on an
A4 by refusing to sell one to him.
Who did you call naive ?
--
Helge Wunderlich
Please delete obvious part of email address to send email.
Brian
"Roger Neal" <re...@midwest.net> wrote in message
news:3910EE...@midwest.net...
> I just got an e-mail from Litco refusing to sell me an Alpha 4 because
> of the charger I'm developing. It sounds like they are thinking I am
> interested in copying their charger. I would like to say openly that
> the only thing negative I have feelings about Litco or Alpha 4 is their
> never ending waiting list. I was hoping to get an Alpha 4 to use this
> season while I develop my charger, and then sell it on eBay for $320
> ;-) I want to let every one know that I recommend getting an Alpha 4 if
> you can. It will take a while before the Compucharger that I'm working
> on will be ready for release. I will, however, expedite development
> because I won't be getting no Alpha 4 from Litco. Litco refers to my
> product as vaporware, but vaporware charges as many batteries as a
> waiting list does.
>
> Anyway, for the record:
>
> 1 I think the Alpha 4 is a great product from what I've heard and I do
> not wish to do harm to Litco or their product. I just wish their supply
> would meet the demand.
>
> 2 I do not want to copy the Alpha 4's hardware, software, algorithms,
> multitasking, or anything else. If I were to copy the Alpha 4, I could
> not sell it legally. I hope there is more difference between my charger
> and the Alpha 4 than there is between the Alpha 4 and an Accu-Cycle.
>
>
> Litco doesn't want to sell Alpha 4's to anyone "engaged in and/or
> assisting in an effort to develop
> systems substantially similar to Litco Systems Alpha4."
> http://home.att.net/~LitcoSys/legal.htm
>
> As long as Litco keeps the Alpha 4 scarce, they shouldn't have much of a
> problem!
>
> I don't understand it, seems like they don't want to step up production
> to meet the demand but they don't want anyone else to meet the demand
> either.
> --
>
>
> Roger Neal
> re...@midwest.net
>
Brian
"ms566395" <ecre...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:8f17ih$ics$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
> I don't see where it's hurting anything. After all, you can't actually BUY
> one. 8>)
> --
> Ed Cregger
> ecre...@mindspring.com
>
>
>
Don Hatten
about a charger they don't even own and, apparently in Brian's case, don't want
to own. As stated elsewhere in this thread, there are plenty of alternatives
out there. Lighten up or dial quicker during the next production window.
Sheesh.
Brian wrote:
> Yea... and Litco can shove their charger up their <expletive deleted>!
--
****************************
Don Hatten AMA SOARDOG
Galena, Alaska KE6TJG
USHGA 17442
http://www.freerepublic.com
****************************
"Guns are the teeth of the people's freedom" - Thomas Jefferson
"Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in
slavery than unequal in freedom."
-- Alexis Charles Clerel de Tocqueville - "Democracy in America" (1835)
ms566395
It sounds like a really nice piece of equipment looking for an application.
It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy just knowing that some of the owners out
there are really hooked on their Alpha 4 analyzers, or whatever they are
called. Seriously. I really mean it.
A while back I tried to buy a kit of an A&A Gere Sport bipe. I had a
four-stroke gasoline engine lined up, just waiting for me to consumate the
deal, but, A&A in their infinite wisdom had gone over to the auction system
of selling their products. I bid two or three times over a couple of week
period and then got ticked off at them for not just selling me the kit
outright. If there was a method in place for doing so, I missed it after
lots of looking. I vowed then that I'll never play games like this when I
have my money in hand and am willing to pay a reasonable price. Life's too
short for this nonsense.
On the other hand, I really enjoyed doing business with Lynch's Hanger. You
call them up, place your order and they send the kit of your choice. My
Combat 2.7 is in the que for construction. It was bumped out of the number
one slot by the Hanger 9 Ultra Stik. Now I wish I had just started the
Combat 2.7 and had never heard of the Ultra Stik. It's a nice ARF, but it's
already covered, which makes it a real PIA to work on and join the wings. I
lay out my radio installations before I cover. Difficult to do with an ARF.
I must say that it is one of the best ARF models I've seen. I'm not knocking
the Ultra Stik, it's just my preferences do not conform with what they
offer.
If I didn't ramble, I'd never say anything...
WHO SAID THAT! <G>
--
Ed Cregger
ecre...@mindspring.com
Brian <bbe...@snip.net> wrote
> Yea... and Litco can shove their charger up their ass!
Roger Neal
So true! The order that Litco canceled was supposed to arrive in July,
since they refused to sell me one, someone that read the postings is
going to sell me one. Thanks to Litco, I'll be getting one two months
earlier! :-)
Anyone that has read what I'm putting into my charger will know it's not
going to be identical to the Alpha 4. I'm planning on having many more
automated features for battery managment. I don't think the Alpha 4 is
capable of the features I'm wanting to have, so it would not do me any
good to try to reverse engineer an Alpha 4. The major differences being
that I want to design my unit for more charge current, use NV memory to
store user settings, and have more programmed features available. As
far as computer controlled equipment, the Alpha 4 seems very basic,
however, it is way ahead of the other chargers I've looked at near that
price range.
--
Roger Neal
re...@midwest.net
Tim Hamel
Hi Roger,
My first post here..but your idea for a new kind of charger caught my eye.
Obviously, you're going to use some kind of uController, right? Let me guess...a
PIC? Is this going to be an "open-source" project?
Kind Regards,
Tim Hamel
keith schiffner
roger have you looked at the stuff from VICTOR engineering or one of the
newer TURBOMATCHER systemsboth have all the options of the alpha4 AND can
charge just about any pack you can imagine. keith.
p.s. of course having been out of the rc cars for a while i could be really
out of date. but hey these guys are always skinning the battery pack cat a
new and better way.
Kevin Kline
And the opposite is true too. I fail to see why ANYONE gets so fired up
over the Litco. Sure, maybe it's a good product but, if it had never
been available, would all those folks have stopped flying for lack of
what they consider a super charger?
Now tell me it does the dishes, lets the dog out and helps the kids with
their homework and I might consider one. But to me, it's just another
gimmick that I have done and can continue to do without quite well!
K. Kline
Helge Wunderlich
>And with the resale
>value of Alpha 4's, I didn't think I could go wrong.
Careful, Roger. When your charger hits the market, the resale value of
the A4 may plummet severely :-)
Roger Neal
I searched a little bit and didn't find any information on features of
the Victor Chargers, just prices for sale at a hobby shop. I found a
website for a Turbomatcher and the retail price was $1,395! There was a
charger by the same company that made the Turbomatcher that looked
reasonable priced.
>From what I've read from others, the features they like in the Alpha 4
include:
* One charger for all R/C battery charging needs (TX, RX, Glow Driver, &
Gel Cell/Lead Acid)
* Charges and discharges, shows batteries capacity.
* Voltmeter
* Peak Charges at all different settings
* Auto Trickle after peak, Float for Lead Acid/Gel Cells
* Works off 12V at the field or 120VAC at home
This adds up to put the batteries on the charger and they'll be ready
whenever you need them. What more could we want? How about more
current capability, remember your pack settings so that you don't have
to enter them every time, remember when a pack has been cycled last and
recommend cycling at intervals based on number of charges or time since
last cycled, alternatives to trickle such as charging c/10 for an hour
a day, or so many minutes/seconds per hour/day/week. More adjustable
settings but less settings that you have to adjust. And the biggest
feature of all... NO WAITING LIST after they're in production!
--
Roger Neal
re...@midwest.net
aerogra...@my-deja.com
Roger
http://www.aerografixs.com
In article <39156997...@erols.com>,
kli...@erols.com wrote:
> Don,
>
> And the opposite is true too. I fail to see why ANYONE gets so fired
up
> over the Litco. Sure, maybe it's a good product but, if it had never
> been available, would all those folks have stopped flying for lack of
> what they consider a super charger?
>
> Now tell me it does the dishes, lets the dog out and helps the kids
with
> their homework and I might consider one. But to me, it's just another
> gimmick that I have done and can continue to do without quite well!
>
> K. Kline
>
Kevin Kline
K. Kline
Roger Neal
Red Scholefield
take over the family industrial estate. I don't if they are still in
business in the US or if they are who took them over.
We have 4 Victor Hi-Q Industrial units (nearly identical to the hobby
version with the exception of resolution). They are great for the kind of
work we do at the battery clinic. All parameters are programmable...US
$400+ not including cables and power supply. One battery at a time. The
Victors are collecting dust as the Alpha 4 (both of them) do the daily
battery chores for our customers in the shop and at the field.
Red S.
Red's R/C Battery Clinic
http://yoda.fdt.net/~redscho
keith schiffner
Hey thanks Red! that's a shame the Victors are some really good
chargers. many good options, so if you don't want those chargers any more
and are going to throw them out well...i've been know to go thru the barrel
looking for good salvage8^)) keith
Dr. Sandy Frank
BUT BEING A MODELER IS A STATE OF MIND...
FAR MORE THAN A HOBBY...or Sport !!!
Did any here SEE the old Movie ?
" The Flight of the PHOENIX"
HE was a modeler !!!!
DID any see the Battle of Britain movie??? IT was done by a modeler...
I know the definition of BEING a MODELER... far too few really KNOW
the definition at all...
S Frank
Red Scholefield
came along, gas tube radios, escapements, reed radios, analog
proportional, rechargable batteries, and then digital proportional,
plastic film covering, CA, foam board, etc. etc. etc, ......and jerks that
have little to contribute to this newsgroup.
Red S. AMA 951-IMAA 18939-Flying Gators Gainesville, FL
"I speak truth, not so much as I would, but as much
as I dare; and I dare a little more as I grow older."
Montaigne
Don Hatten
The question isn't about flying, its about someone complaining (rather vividly I
might add) about a product they don't have because of an apparent inability to dial a
phone fast enough to get on a waiting list.
If they had one and it sucked I could see the problem and the need to complain.
Trouble is, the Litco doesn't suck. So the complainers need to carp about something
else. Those same people who can't dial a phone fast enough are now upset that they
will have to pay more for something they aren't going to buy anyway...it's a strange
universe, this internet.
C'mon Roger, get your charger on the market so the malcontents can have something
else to gripe about. BTW: If it turns out as good as you say, put me on your waiting
list.
Kevin Kline wrote:
> Don,
>
> And the opposite is true too. I fail to see why ANYONE gets so fired up
> over the Litco. Sure, maybe it's a good product but, if it had never
> been available, would all those folks have stopped flying for lack of
> what they consider a super charger?
--
Wb4guk
> But to me, it's just another
>> > > gimmick that I have done and can continue to do without quite well!
One never misses what one never had!
Dan Thompson (AMA 32873, EAA 60974, Ham call WB4GUK)
Sound engineering and good marketing are not always parallel paths.
Bill Archibald
WOW !!!!
I guess the north east wasn't the only place that got sun stroked today.
-bill
(valid e-address.... user name = warch
domain = rcwizard.com )
James G. Branaum
for EVERYTHING...
Can you please explain exactly how your comments relate to the lowlife jerks
that use the newsgroup to make threats? How about their friends, you know,
the stupid jerks that just imply threats?
Jim Branaum j...@flash.net AMA 1428
"Another modeler supplying glue to the AMA"
"Red Scholefield" <red...@gnv.fdt.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.05.100050...@yoda.fdt.net...
> Probably not. No more that they would have stopped if glo engines never
> came along, gas tube radios, escapements, reed radios, analog
> proportional, rechargable batteries, and then digital proportional,
> plastic film covering, CA, foam board, etc. etc. etc, ......and jerks that
> have little to contribute to this newsgroup.
>
> Red S. AMA 951-IMAA 18939-Flying Gators Gainesville, FL
> "I speak truth, not so much as I would, but as much
> as I dare; and I dare a little more as I grow older."
> Montaigne
>
> On Sun, 7 May 2000, Kevin Kline wrote:
>
> > Don,
> >
> > And the opposite is true too. I fail to see why ANYONE gets so fired up
> > over the Litco. Sure, maybe it's a good product but, if it had never
> > been available, would all those folks have stopped flying for lack of
> > what they consider a super charger?
>
> >Now tell me it does the dishes, lets the dog out and helps the kids with
> >their homework and I might consider one. But to me, it's just another
> >gimmick that I have done and can continue to do without quite well!
> >
> > K. Kline
>
>
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
wrote:
>... remember when a pack has been cycled last and
>recommend cycling at intervals based on number of charges or time since
>last cycled ...
This is one of many things that's got me excited about the project.
If not Roger, then who?
If not now, then when? ;o)
Marty
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
<hat...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>...
>The question isn't about flying, its about someone complaining (rather vividly I
>might add) about a product they don't have because of an apparent inability to dial a
>phone fast enough to get on a waiting list.
> ...
Don,
You and I perceive the thread differently.
Seems to me RN has always just complained about the waiting list,
never the product.
The sub-thread on sandpapering ICs and booby-trapping the case
was not a complaint about the quality of the charger AS A CHARGER
but was a commentary on the peculiar approach to engineering
and production that Litco ***SEEMS*** to have taken.
Marty
Kevin Kline
someone asks a question or presents an opinion you don't like? More AMA
Leadership training here? Get off it Red! Your lies and manipulation
are well documented.
K. Kline
matthew
> however, it is way ahead of the other chargers I've looked at near that
> price range.
Try here http://www.aveox.com/8294.html ($239.95 LIST) or
http://www.schulze-elektronik.com/isl6-e.htm DM 450 (less than $225 USD)
These are fully automatic chargers. Just connect ANY NiCd, or NiMh pack, and
it does the rest. While you can set it to do whatever you want, lust leave
them in Automatic, and no need to think. If the Alpha is a Ford, these are
Ferraris.
--
Matthew Orme
Orme Design http://www.orme.org
4568 Calle Argolla, Camarillo, Ca 93012,
Phone/Fax:(805)987-1777
Microsoft "Where do you want to go today? It doesn't matter, you're coming
with us."
for answers to your electric questions, sign up for the eflight list at
http://www.ezonemag.com
bspeed
reasoning is all the weekend and evening posts, when do they have TIME
to RC model?
matthew
in auto
> mode (ie: cell phone, dremel.....)
yes. Capacity is not a variable on any good charger. There is NOTHING you
have to set, or tell the charger (if it is in the Auto mode). I used it on
the "discharge then charge three times" setting to initially charge the 750
mah NiMh pack for my Ericsson 788 cell phone. (You know, the one I use to
talk to friends while I fly) ;-0 . On the Schulze, the ONLY thing you do is
connect the battery (any NiCd, NiMh). it does everything else. The Infinity
2 has about the same software, but you have to push the start button after
connecting the battery. It's software keeps checking the voltage change at
time intervals, and it adjust the current accordingly. ie, a large pack's
voltage won't change much after a short charge at 150 ma, so it keeps
raising the current until it sees the voltage increase it's softwear
expects. A 200 mah pack on the other hand will show a bigger voltage change,
so it might lower the current to it's lowest setting, 100 ma.
Fully automatic means fully automatic. the charger doesn't care if you
attach a 200 mah or 4000 mah pack.
Barry Burke Jr.
matthew wrote:
>
> Try here http://www.aveox.com/8294.html ($239.95 LIST) or
> http://www.schulze-elektronik.com/isl6-e.htm DM 450 (less than $225 USD)
>
> These are fully automatic chargers. Just connect ANY NiCd, or NiMh pack, and
> it does the rest. While you can set it to do whatever you want, lust leave
> them in Automatic, and no need to think. If the Alpha is a Ford, these are
> Ferraris.
More like apples and oranges. How many channels to those chargers
have? How well do they charge your gel-cell? ESV feature?
Then again, they fast charge large packs better than the Litco ever
will, and have several features making them excellent units in their own
right, hence the fruit. I can toss one of my A4's in my flight box and
do it all, at the field. E-modelers have much different needs than wet
modelers.
Barry
--
*********************************************
nos...@snet.net _IS_ my real email address
No changes are needed to reply
http://www.bburke.com
*********************************************
`Sven
I have built 4 planes during the last year (my first year in the hobby) and
am still flying three of them......weather permitting every weekend. I am
presently working on the completion stages of an Ultra Sport 40 (which I
plan on taking up this weekend). Properly allocated, there seems to be time
enough for almost everything.
Gotta run.........I hear my sealing iron calling!
bspeed <bsp...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:3917060B...@my-deja.com...
James G. Branaum
"matthew" <mo...@aveox.com> wrote in message
news:h7FR4.732$yr1.1...@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
Roger Neal
>
> > For devices where you dont know the capacity etc, will it still function
> in auto
> > mode (ie: cell phone, dremel.....)
>
> yes. Capacity is not a variable on any good charger. There is NOTHING you
> have to set, or tell the charger (if it is in the Auto mode). I used it on
> the "discharge then charge three times" setting to initially charge the 750
> mah NiMh pack for my Ericsson 788 cell phone. (You know, the one I use to
> talk to friends while I fly) ;-0 . On the Schulze, the ONLY thing you do is
> connect the battery (any NiCd, NiMh). it does everything else. The Infinity
> 2 has about the same software, but you have to push the start button after
> connecting the battery. It's software keeps checking the voltage change at
> time intervals, and it adjust the current accordingly. ie, a large pack's
> voltage won't change much after a short charge at 150 ma, so it keeps
> raising the current until it sees the voltage increase it's softwear
> expects. A 200 mah pack on the other hand will show a bigger voltage change,
> so it might lower the current to it's lowest setting, 100 ma.
>
> Fully automatic means fully automatic. the charger doesn't care if you
> attach a 200 mah or 4000 mah pack.
> --
> Matthew Orme
> Orme Design http://www.orme.org
I've been thinking about having these automatic charging features on the
charger I'm working on but I'm not sure how different a fully charged
200mah battery pack would look compared to a 4000mah pack. I know on
NiMh the voltage goes pretty flat or a small amount of negative delta v,
I was afraid it might look like a larger pack since a fully charger pack
wouldn't raise much. I have a Tekin BC112 and it can false peak pretty
easy if you're not careful. I was considering calculating a time period
based on charge rate that a battery has peak on go to zero delta V, this
time period would be different for a 15 hour charge compared to a 15
minute charge. I guess after I get my prototype working I'll find out
how packs with different amounts of charge look to the charger, if there
is a positive distinction based on battery capacity alone I'll try to
make my charger fully automatic, otherwise I thought the next best thing
is to have defaults for what the user wants to set for each port, that
way it could be fully automatic unless you charged a battery that wasn't
the default for the port and voltage.
--
Roger Neal
re...@midwest.net
Roger Neal
>
> > far as computer controlled equipment, the Alpha 4 seems very basic,
> > however, it is way ahead of the other chargers I've looked at near that
> > price range.
>
> http://www.schulze-elektronik.com/isl6-e.htm DM 450 (less than $225 USD)
>
> These are fully automatic chargers. Just connect ANY NiCd, or NiMh pack, and
> it does the rest. While you can set it to do whatever you want, lust leave
> them in Automatic, and no need to think. If the Alpha is a Ford, these are
> Ferraris.
>
> Phone/Fax:(805)987-1777
> Microsoft "Where do you want to go today? It doesn't matter, you're coming
> with us."
> for answers to your electric questions, sign up for the eflight list at
> http://www.ezonemag.com
Where can you buy the Shulze-Elektronik chargers?
--
Roger Neal
re...@midwest.net
matthew
> have?
2
> How well do they charge your gel-cell?
Great There is a program on the Schulze for lead cells. (read the info at
the links, and you would not ask these questions)
>ESV feature?
digital voltmeter (no need for an Expanded Scale, when it reads to 1/100
volt)
Barry Burke Jr.
matthew wrote:
>
> > More like apples and oranges. How many channels to those chargers
> > have?
>
> 2
>
> > How well do they charge your gel-cell?
>
> Great There is a program on the Schulze for lead cells. (read the info at
> the links, and you would not ask these questions)
>
I did. The Aveox dosen't do gell cells, and both of them have 2
channels to the Litco's four. Neither the Shultze, Aveox, or Litco have
ALL of the other's features. Hence my point that they all have a role
to fill.
matthew
I believe that they will sell them direct, but there is a link on their
website for RC Direct in San Diego
matthew
> channels to the Litco's four.
1 real channel vs 4 toy ones. I don't own a cell that should be charged at
.25A. Even the N500A cells in my smallest planes, or the KR700AE cells in my
transmitter want at least .7A (in the auto modes of the chargers.) If all I
had was 100mah packs of a HLG, I suppose it would be useful. If I charge the
batteries the way I like, the Litco is basically a single port charger. As
it is, with the Schulze, I can FAST charge 2 packs at the field, instead of
leaving it hooked up overnight as you need to do with the Litco.
Get what makes you happy. I like to charge my cells at the field in a short
enough time that I can actiually fly. I don't believe in keeping batteries
hooked up to chargers for extended periods (the electrolyte boils away
accoprding to the Sanyo rep). I charge them up, and fly them on the spot. I
never charge anything "the nite B4". I try to store them discharged. (If you
spend more than $3/cell on batteries, buy them from SR batteries, and they
will be matched, which means you can discharge them to ZERO, and store them
with a shorting bar across them like the military does) If I am concerned
about a packs capacity, I just set either charger to "discharge, then
charge" (does the litco do that?), and see from the charged in value how the
pack is doing. As far as Gel cells, that's what my $25 Wallmart 1.5A deep
discharge battery maintainer/charger is for. Bigger Lead/Acid cells just get
hooked up to the regular automobile battery charger.
Kjell Aanvik
http://www.orbitronic.de/
http://www.schulze-elektronik.com/
http://www.sommer-electronic.de/
--
Kjell Aanvik
Oslo, Norway
matthew <mo...@aveox.com> skrev i
meldingsnyheter:lpXR4.573$Za3....@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
> > Where can you buy the Shulze-Elektronik chargers?
>
> I believe that they will sell them direct, but there is a link on their
> website for RC Direct in San Diego
>
>