swastika on r/c model - yes/no ??
B & C Duffey
Here is a question which has probably come up before...I am nearing
completion of a semi-scale FW 190 which I am giving an accurate paint job
and am somewhat concerned about putting the swastika on the tail. I had
built plenty of plastic models of axis aircraft during my youth and never
gave it a second thought. But since R/C models are meant to be flown (and
don't sit on a shelf hopefully) you never know who might be at a field and
who you may offend. Should I be at all concerned ? Has anyone here ever
felt offended by a swastika on an R/C model ? Am I just being oversensitive
in this age of political correctness ?
Thanks
Chris Duffey
AMA 699853 < new member
Dno1939
someone is offended enough to complain, simply explain that you are a modeler,
not a Nazi and scale models need scale markings.
Good Luck!!>Here is a question which has probably come up before...I am nearing
Edwin Smith
same with an ME109E.
Edwin
Dno1939 wrote in message <20010107211643...@ng-mg1.aol.com>...
rearran...@my-deja.com
with the swastika and have not heard anyone complain. Carry some Easy
Peel stickers with you and if someone objects stick on a McDonalds or
some other sticker temporarily......but there again some people would
object to McDonalds !
Regards Andy
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Scar
I see evidence on this newsgroup that certain parties (France,
Germany, Yahoo) would censor the swastika, universally, no exceptions.
While I'm not particularly fond of the symbol, I do study the history.
When they come to erase any part of my history books (or documentation
sheets) they'll meet resistance.
When I build a '109, it will be historically, not politically,
correct. Those who would strip a scale model of its markings, well,
they don't have enough to do.
There, my 2¢ worth.
Dave Olson
On Mon, 08 Jan 2001 01:59:17 GMT, "B & C Duffey" <duf...@ieee.org>
wrote:
>Hi all,
Cliff Griffin
Cliff
Warren Smith
Warrdn Smith
Anonymous
Okay, so it's bad that I have one on the hood of my Camry?
--------== Posted Anonymously via Newsfeeds.Com ==-------
Featuring the worlds only Anonymous Usenet Server
-----------== http://www.newsfeeds.com ==----------
B & C Duffey
"Anonymous" <anon...@anonymous.anonymous> wrote in message
news:sjdi5tg95tocuh146...@4ax.com...
DUBOLIN
the real aircraft has markings, abrasion, weathering, field repairs, etc,
regardless as to whether or not it is "correct to standards" as long as it
duplicates the specific real aircraft you are replicating, it is kosher. No pun
meant. You know, I've stopped being concerned about issues that seem to "piss"
people off from the point that they are still free to do what they wish while I
pursue my own objectives. As long as I don't screw someone over in the process,
I will do pretty much as I please. That to me is a moral value in that it
imposes no ill harm in any way or judgement on others and denies no one a
single thing. I leave people to their own device. They want to get pissed, I
won't deny them the opportunity. It's their choice as I have mine. Steven R
Bolin
B & C Duffey
Thank You All for your comments, I don't feel hesitant about putting it on
now - it is after all a model, not a statement of my political views :-)
Chris
Bill Archibald
> ..I say go ahead with the authentic markings. I have seen many models
>with the swastika and have not heard anyone complain. Carry some Easy
>Peel stickers with you and if someone objects stick on a McDonalds or
>some other sticker temporarily......but there again some people would
>object to McDonalds !
>
>Regards Andy
This reminds of an encounter in Seattle at the airport during the
early 70's. An officer objected to ripped, torn, and very frayed pants
being worn by a traveler. The youthful (long haired) traveler offered
to put on a raincoat, but the officer said, "That would only be
covering up the problem"
Although it was pointed out to the officer that pants themselves "only
covered up the problem", the officer was steadfast in his "logic"
-bill
(valid e-address.... user name = warch
domain = rcwizard.com )
Dno1939
Fred McClellan
<rearran...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:93b9f1$j8j$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
<SNP>
> > ..I say go ahead with the authentic markings. I have seen many models
> with the swastika and have not heard anyone complain. Carry some Easy
> Peel stickers with you and if someone objects stick on a McDonalds or
> some other sticker temporarily......but there again some people would
> object to McDonalds !
Interesting article in today's Atlanta Journal/Constipation . . .
all about the 'issue' of changing the state flag.
Seems the main argument for keeping the present rendition is that
to change the flag would be to ignore history. It also seems that the
present incarnation of the Georgia flag dates from 1956, when the
Confederate Stars and Bars was added in apparent reaction to the
then-hot issue of school integration.
The leading candidate appears to be a version of the flag which was
in vogue _after_ the Civil War and _before_ the 'white power' types
got the flag changed to the present version.
Wonder why the _original_ flag isn't the leading contender ? Maybe
because _that_ flag was in use during the slavery years ?
So much for preserving history.
If someone objects to authentic markings on a scale model tell them
to go pound sand. Anyone anal enough to whine about a swastika
on a scale model of a German aircraft will know where said sand is
to be pounded.
Anyone anal enough to whine about such markings also bears
watching, notably in the pits. These morons think nothing of
having an 'accident', and tromping all over the model trying to
prevent a 'fall'.
Been there, seen it done. Helped with the incarceration, too, not
that it did the modeler any good.
--
Cheers,
Fred McClellan
Brett Jaffee
not on a fun fly or something. My friend and I both fly EPP combat
gliders...me a P-51 and him an Fw-190 with full markings.
My own plane has lots of swastikas on it in fact....lots of little ones, just
below the canopy. :)
In article <V9966.14434$Bb2.2...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "B & C Duffey"
__________________________________________________________________________
Brett Jaffee
Brett's Slope and Power Home Page:
http://home.earthlink.net/~jaffee
The Unoffical Extra 300 Home Page:
http://www.bayarea.net/~nathan/extra300/
OnTheWay: Quake 2 & 3 server utility
http://www.planetquake.com/ontheway
REMOVE THE "NOSPAM" FROM MY EMAIL ADDRESS BEFORE REPLYING!
__________________________________________________________________________
Red Scholefield
> Okay, so it's bad that I have one on the hood of my Camry?
Only if you stay Anonymous and don't park it in front of a synagogue.
Red Scholefield - AMA 951 IMAA 18939
Dist V
Mark
you want it to be scale, put the logo on. You just have to ask yourself, does
it offend me? If it does'nt then sod anyone else, put it on!
Hope this helps, Happy flying!
Mark J.
Kevin Kline
they are also the ones who think it impossible for history to repeat
itself. Hiding and/or outlawing such reminders as the swastika is the
best way I can think of to make sure history has a chance of repeating.
Maybe it will be here next time!
K. Kline
B & C Duffey wrote:
Kevin Kline
K. Kline
Ken Cashion
wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>Here is a question which has probably come up before...I am nearing
>completion of a semi-scale FW 190 which I am giving an accurate paint job
>and am somewhat concerned about putting the swastika on the tail.
<snip of real concerns for the 21st century>
I hope that these comments will be conclusive enough that I
will not be drawn into a bunch of text.
I am offering a comment and a suggestion, rather than just a
comment.
The most politically correct (which is an oxymoron, in itself)
nations on earth were 1940 Nazi Germany and 1950 Soviet Union. There,
everything had political implications and there was an accepted way of
saying everything.
Yes, their political correctness was different from ours but I
am talking about the concepts not the execution. Both were to alter
the thinking of society.
PC is not going to go away.
Counter-PC will occur because the history of such movements
prove it.
A fellow with one leg shorter than the other knows himself
better than one whose legs are the same length knows him. Changing
the words to describe the condition does not alter the leg length --
so changing the old words to current words does nothing but alter
perceptions, not reality.
At a military hospital in 1945, a doctor was working with some
wounded soldiers and he told them, "This month, you are a hero. Next
year, you will be a disabled veteran. The year after that, you will
be another cripple."
Things change but slowly. These are the proper evoluntionary
changes in society and they work to the greater good.
The sudden legislated changes are abrupt and this interruption
of the social status quo is seen first as progressive and then
recognized to be threatening, in that, the purpose is to alter the
thinking of society -- suddenly.
When this force continues, there is a counter-movement.
To the issue at hand...
What would be a counter-movement?
When you see a nice German model that should have a swastika
and does not, make a comment about it.
Ask the builder if he has color scheme and marking
documentation of that aircraft appearing without a swastika?
Make a comment.
You do not need to bust him in the mouth!
I do this -- make comments -- not bust him in the mouth. :o)
If the modeler says something about social sensibilities, just
laugh at him. (It is hard to show pity.)
When I see the same model with a swastika, I made a comment
then, as well.
I say, "Hey! Good lookin' model, there, buddy! I am glad to
see that you put the correct markings on it. Nice work!"
By the way, PC, used to be called "tact" but we lost that and
have been inflicted with extreme PC.
Cheers -- Ken Cashion, boy historian
Mike Slaughter
> object to McDonalds !
>
> Regards Andy
Mainly in France
Mike
Lyman Slack
will replicate the real aircraft in "--- finish, color, AND markings".
Simply put, the revisionist historians and the pc saints have no concept of
what accurately portrays the past history; good or bad.
I also am building an FW190-D9. It will have all the historical markings,
including the swastika.
Cheers -- \_________Lyman Slack__________/
\_______AMA6430 IMAA1564___/
\_____Flying Gators R/C_____/
\___Gainesville FL________/
"B & C Duffey" <duf...@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:V9966.14434$Bb2.2...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
Ken Cashion
Jaffee) wrote:
>Well, I'm Jewish, and I wouldn't mind as long as it's on a scale plane, and
>not on a fun fly or something. My friend and I both fly EPP combat
>gliders...me a P-51 and him an Fw-190 with full markings.
>
>My own plane has lots of swastikas on it in fact....lots of little ones, just
>below the canopy. :)
Well, done!! Now THAT is funny!
I don't know why more of this stuff can't be fun.
I have problems with swastikas on baseball caps or the like.
People assume that swastikas "out of place" meaning in a
"non-historical context" do make a personal statement.
It could mean that the person has some reason for glorifying
the Nazi organization or history.
Or it could be a guy that is just damned unhappy with people
trying to tell him how to think and that is his way of telling the
public to leave him to hell alone.
I can relate to that.
I have WWII German postcards with Hitler's pictures, helmets
with original swastikas, and other things of this type but they are in
my militaria collection in my study -- along with Spitfire pilots'
flight computers, escape maps to get out of Germany, valves from
Merlins and B-17s, WWII v-mail -- so I would consider this "in
historical context."
Without counter-PC, someday I could lose the right to own some
of these things.
And in some countries, you would not be permitted to put the
little swastikas on your model. Shallow people think the emblem is the
threat.
This is an international forum and if I didn't like it, I
wouldn't read it.
"PC" means "Public Cowardice."
Cheers -- Ken Cashion
--------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Cregger
And while you are at it, why not light up a cigarette or
cigar as often as you can?
Of course, donning a Remington logo equipped baseball cap
while wearing your hunting jacket with the hunting license
proudly displayed on the back will certainly add to the
mood.
A logo on your model stating, "I'm proud to be flying a
model made of rain forest wood", would also add a nice
touch.
One last final touch would be a bumper sticker declaring,
"SAVE THE WHALES!!! - the barbecue is next week!".
--
Ed Cregger
ecre...@earthlink.net
"B & C Duffey" <duf...@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:V9966.14434$Bb2.2...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
Dr1Driver
>in this age of political correctness ?
No, they're the ones who are over-sensitive. This is a HOBBY, and it's a
freakin' MODEL, for gawd's sake! Everyone who is offended at it should lighten
up and get a life. Anyone who doesn't like the crosses on my Fokker Dr.1 can
bite me.
Dr.1 Driver
"There's a Hun in the sun!"
Bill Vail
Bill Vail
"Dr1Driver" <dr1d...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010108090128...@ng-cf1.aol.com...
Mathew Kirsch
> Here is a question which has probably come up before...I am nearing
> completion of a semi-scale FW 190 which I am giving an accurate paint job
> and am somewhat concerned about putting the swastika on the tail. I had
> built plenty of plastic models of axis aircraft during my youth and never
> gave it a second thought. But since R/C models are meant to be flown (and
> don't sit on a shelf hopefully) you never know who might be at a field and
> who you may offend. Should I be at all concerned ? Has anyone here ever
> in this age of political correctness ?
My personal opinion: You're being oversensitive.
Mathew Kirsch
> Okay, so it's bad that I have one on the hood of my Camry?
Only if it's not a 1939 Volkswagen Camry that was driven by Adolf himself :)
The swastika is only offensive if the person that uses it subscribes to the
ideals of the Nazi regime. If you put the swastika on the plane for scale
representation, it's meaningless. Heck, you can simply point the legs of
the swastika in the other direction, and it's like a good luck symbol in
certain African countries, isn't it?
James G. Branaum
"Ken Cashion" <kcas...@datasync.com> wrote in message
news:3a59bbb8...@news.datasync.com...
Nice line, mind if I use it elsewhere?
Jim McIntyre
rearran...@my-deja.com wrote:
>snip>
> Carry some Easy
> Peel stickers with you and if someone objects stick on a McDonalds or
I work hard on the finishes on my planes and will not put some gummy
sticker on them just to appease some anal type.
I'd be quick to point out that censorship/rewriting of history is a
nazi-like behaviour!
Next they'll be asking for digital distortion (like they use for
suspect faces on tv) over markings on aircraft in movies. :(
Wonder what Frank Zappa would say about this if he were still around....
--
Jim McIntyre
Ontario, Canada.
http://Jim_McIntyre.tripod.com
http://www.ajaxrcclub.com/
Bery
strict association of swastika = nazi.
They forgot that the madman didn't invent anything and that it has longer been
known as a religious symbol in india than mankind can remember.
This is also why neo-nazis in germany display the old imperial eagle or the
WW1 vintage iron cross instead of the swastika in their rally.
Personaly I would keep it as close to reality if it is a scale model but avoid
using it if it's only semi-scale or "free scale"..
Cheers
Georges
John E. Cramer
a few contest videos from Top Gun, Joe Nall, etc. On one video was a fat
Russian biplane done up in Swiss markings. Guess what the Swiss markings
were in the 30's? Big swastikas!
Apparently Hitler borrowed the swastika for his own use.
Oh, and there were plenty of other scale aircraft that had the swastikas on
them. These were big contests with many spectators and participants. I
have not heard of a protest on this issue.
--
Best Regards,
jc
website: http://home.flash.net/~jecramer/planes.htm
"B & C Duffey" <duf...@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:V9966.14434$Bb2.2...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
> Hi all,
>
> Here is a question which has probably come up before...I am nearing
> completion of a semi-scale FW 190 which I am giving an accurate paint job
> and am somewhat concerned about putting the swastika on the tail. I had
> built plenty of plastic models of axis aircraft during my youth and never
> gave it a second thought. But since R/C models are meant to be flown (and
> don't sit on a shelf hopefully) you never know who might be at a field
and
> who you may offend. Should I be at all concerned ? Has anyone here ever
> felt offended by a swastika on an R/C model ? Am I just being
oversensitive
> in this age of political correctness ?
>
Ed Forsythe
I read some of the insensitive responses. --
"I seek the company of those who have lived beyond the edge
If I seem aloof and haughty,
Call it honest arrogance."
Tally Ho!
Ed
"Ed Cregger" <ecre...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ilj66.1703$Bp.7...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Charlie Wolf
I liken this to the flag-burning issue. I've burned about 50 -60
American Flags. But when I did it, I was a member of a color guard
unit for my local Legion Post, and we were destroying tattered
American flags in a private (and solemn) ceremony.
Big difference between that and the a_ _ hole that burns one on the
steps of the Capital 'cause he/she wants to protest American
involvment in Nicarauga ( pick your very own leftist isuue here).
Both of us burned a Flag - but the flag didn't need to be protected
from our local Color Guard.
Put it on your FW 190 and I ain't got a problem with it. Put it on
the rear window of your pickup truck and you and I have a bit of
problem...
Regards,
On Mon, 08 Jan 2001 01:59:17 GMT, "B & C Duffey" <duf...@ieee.org>
wrote:
grd...@my-deja.com
wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>Here is a question which has probably come up before...I am nearing
>completion of a semi-scale FW 190 which I am giving an accurate paint job
>and am somewhat concerned about putting the swastika on the tail. I had
>built plenty of plastic models of axis aircraft during my youth and never
>gave it a second thought. But since R/C models are meant to be flown (and
>don't sit on a shelf hopefully) you never know who might be at a field and
>who you may offend. Should I be at all concerned ? Has anyone here ever
>felt offended by a swastika on an R/C model ? Am I just being oversensitive
>in this age of political correctness ?
>
>Thanks
>
>Chris Duffey
>AMA 699853 < new member
>
For heven sake, paint it the way it was. I do think this PC crap is
out of control. Why should we try to change history. In any case,
the flap is for Nazi memorabilia not models of Nazi planes.
My two cents.
>
Gene K8JQZ
Palm Bay FL
Land of Year round flying. (Except during Hurricanes)
AMA 531730
"Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft - and the only one
that can be mass produced with unskilled labor. " Werner von Braun
Michael Morse
>Thank You All for your comments, I don't feel hesitant about putting it on
>now - it is after all a model, not a statement of my political views :-)
Be careful! It sounds like you might be making a typical mistake
here, confusing netnews with reality. Your original questions were:
> Has anyone here ever
> felt offended by a swastika on an R/C model ? Am I just being oversensitive
> in this age of political correctness ?
The answers you saw basically said that while nobody smart enough to
be posting on this newsgroup would be offended, *someone* would be,
but you should ignore it, and be a crusader for counter-PC. Now, you
have to make up your mind. How important is this symbol on the plane
to you? How insensitive are you to what people might think of you?
Personally, I think your first instincts were correct. When you take
your model to the field, it may not be a perfect statement of your
political views, but it is a statement. At very least, it's a
statement against PC. Is that a cause you want to take on?
--Mike
Ken Cashion
wrote:
<snip of a bunch of Cashion stuff>
>> "PC" means "Public Cowardice."
>>
>> Cheers -- Ken Cashion
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>Nice line, mind if I use it elsewhere?
This is the internet and an international forum and here you
go and ask permission to use something on it! This alone makes me
question your motives. :o) Jim, just joking, of course.
My son said something the other day that was interesting and
on the subject.
He said that people who confront someone about their political
incorrectness really don't care about the PC part; they just don't
like them. PC criticism has become the tool by which people abuse
those they dislike. It is always conveniently "there" for use.
I have noticed this but had not made the connection.
All we need to remember is that we are to play nice with
others and be tactful and try not to hurt someone's feelings --
additionally, we need to remember that life is not fair and no one
promised us a stressfree life.
There are going to be things we don't like and we are just
going to have to learn to live with it.
Ian Maclaughlin
I like the message in your post. Has the same sort of irreverence for
PC that is celebrated annually in a San Diego landmark event, the Over-
The-Line tournament. The team names are rarely heard or seen on Wide
World of Sports as most would make the prudes blood churn - but some
are strictly un-PC, patently offensive without the forbidden
words. "Gay Nazis for Christ" and "Nuke the Gay Whales for Jesus" are
a couple of examples that have something to offend nearly everyone. I
think it's healthy, and tends to defuse the epithets used to convey
hatred, by laughing at them. American patriots knew that when they let
their sense of humor prevail by applying 'Yankee Doodle Dandy' to
themselves, disarming their harrassers.
Anyway, though I'd agree on a personal level with the guys that say
damn all the PCness, I'd temper it a bit out of recognition of the
value of maintaining a positive public image, particularly where we
rely on use of public owned property. Our model fields will be more
secure against negative community reaction if our neighbors think well
of us. Our neighbors may well harbor strong feelings, rational or not,
regarding symbols such as swastikas. Because of that I'd avoid using
them too casually or in venues where the motivation for using them may
not be obvious to the observer. IOW, I'd save it for use where
historical accuracy would be compromised without it, on serious scale
WWII models as someone suggested earlier in this thread.
Ian
San Diego
In article <ilj66.1703$Bp.7...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
"Ed Cregger" <ecre...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I say go for it.
>
> And while you are at it, why not light up a cigarette or
> cigar as often as you can?
>
> Of course, donning a Remington logo equipped baseball cap
> while wearing your hunting jacket with the hunting license
> proudly displayed on the back will certainly add to the
> mood.
>
> A logo on your model stating, "I'm proud to be flying a
> model made of rain forest wood", would also add a nice
> touch.
>
> One last final touch would be a bumper sticker declaring,
> "SAVE THE WHALES!!! - the barbecue is next week!".
> --
> Ed Cregger
> ecre...@earthlink.net
Ken Cashion
wrote:
>Stay with historical accuracy. There are those who will complain but
>they are also the ones who think it impossible for history to repeat
>itself. Hiding and/or outlawing such reminders as the swastika is the
>best way I can think of to make sure history has a chance of repeating.
> Maybe it will be here next time!
I teach college history courses and I have repeatedly to the
classes that those who do not learn history are condemned to repeat
it. (Not original.)
And then I tell them that now with social re-engineering it is
true that those who do not learn history can invent it to suit
themselves. :o)
By the way, you do know that this century "came" a year early,
and here we are talking about historical accuracy. :o)
Ken Cashion
>Just don't fly it in Germany, there you could be fined 'cause they made a
>strict association of swastika = nazi.
Bery, a friend of mine, Louis Langhurst, built a 70% Stuka.
Even at 70%, it was still a big airplane. He and his wife would fly
it to airshows and he put on a good demonstration flight with it.
It was marked the same as Rudel's and Rudel had visited Louie
and seen the Stuka -- Rudel was impressed -- and teary eyed.
Louie decided to sell it and it was a near-done deal -- an
international commercial pilot for Lufthansa was going to buy it.
He knew that he would have to paint over the swastikas.
But then he learned that he could not license it in
Germany and could not fly it. Stukas are illegal apparently -- not
just the insignias and markings but the whole aircraft -- even one
that is 70%.
The deal fell through.
Ken Cashion
wrote:
>LOL - Ed, you made my day! I was becoming more and more depressed as
>I read some of the insensitive responses. --
Do you mean that Ed related swastikas on toy airplanes to
"saving the planet?"
I thought it was humorous.
re "saving the planet" -- "Posterity? What has posterity done
for ME?"
I am offended by people who are easily offended.
Ken Cashion
<jecr...@flash.net> wrote:
>Excellent question and one that I have wondered about several times. I have
>a few contest videos from Top Gun, Joe Nall, etc. On one video was a fat
>Russian biplane done up in Swiss markings. Guess what the Swiss markings
>were in the 30's? Big swastikas!
I have a friend, who has a degree in law, and he had a
gorgeous Storch. He did not want to put swastikas on it.
He put French markings on it and this was proper for the model
he had built.
He thought this would be less offensive.
To whom?
Ken Cashion
Wolf) wrote:
>Ditto what et al have said. Let me add this:
>
>I liken this to the flag-burning issue. I've burned about 50 -60
>American Flags. But when I did it, I was a member of a color guard
>unit for my local Legion Post, and we were destroying tattered
>American flags in a private (and solemn) ceremony.
>
>Big difference between that and the a_ _ hole that burns one on the
>steps of the Capital 'cause he/she wants to protest American
>involvment in Nicarauga ( pick your very own leftist isuue here).
<snip of other good stuff>
Well-written and a point well-made.
And as I said before, "The shallow cannot separate the symbol
from the substance."
We have forgotten the words "context" and "restraint."
Ken Cashion
>On Mon, 08 Jan 2001 01:59:17 GMT, "B & C Duffey" <duf...@ieee.org>
>For heven sake, paint it the way it was. I do think this PC crap is
>out of control. Why should we try to change history. In any case,
>the flap is for Nazi memorabilia not models of Nazi planes.
>My two cents.
Gene, in regards to memorabilia.
To offer a little different perspective on this kind of stuff.
WWII was the most important world event in my life-time (so
far), I was a military contractor in the Cold War and was in Berlin
during some of this time, and after that, for decades from the Cuban
Missile Crisis on, there were real concerns for US security.
I say that, to say this --
I enjoy looking at Nazi memorablia and particularly in my
house in quiet south Mississippi.
I am happy that the unspectacular-looking fellow on my German
post cards, that mad man, Hitler, passed on to the ages and I, a kid
then but adult now, can handle a German bomber pilot's navagation
computer and this does not inspire me but rather calms me in my
knowing that many of our problems today may pass away.
I have East German militaria and these guys were perhaps the
only modern, well-equipped army to say 'to hell with it' and take off
their uniforms and simply go home. I have some of the last East
German PX artifacts that these guys were buying before heading home.
I have a Soviet tank radio and a large display of Soviet
medals and I like to see them and know that the Cold War did end
without a nuclear war.
These are just personal things with me but they tie me
directly to an important history through my physical handling of the
artifacts from those times.
I don't glorify but I respect -- and hero worship?
You betcha'! I am guilty as hell of hero worship -- but it is
of the guys in my black and white military glossy photograph. It is
of just three crewmen representing many.
They are standing infront of the A-20 "Duke of Paducah"
somewhere in England, 18 Sept. 1944. The aircraft has invasion
stripes and I hope the young pilot, Lt. Paul H. Randall, of the 644th
Bomb Squadron, 410th Bomb Group, 8th A.F., made it home OK, and
somewhere he is comfortable today with the thoughts that there could
be a guy in south Mississippi who appreciated his being there.
I enjoy looking at the photograph.
As well, as his radio from a HE-111.
OK, OK, I am babbling...enough. ;o)
Red Scholefield
version. Blue swastica on white circle.
Red Scholefield - AMA 951 IMAA 18939
Dist V
RCFlyerNYC
you from doing it
Jeff
Sandman
Go fore it. Scale is scale and forget the politics.
Sandman
B & C Duffey <duf...@ieee.org> skrev i
meldingsnyheter:V9966.14434$Bb2.2...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
> Hi all,
>
> Here is a question which has probably come up before...I am nearing
> completion of a semi-scale FW 190 which I am giving an accurate paint job
> and am somewhat concerned about putting the swastika on the tail. I had
> built plenty of plastic models of axis aircraft during my youth and never
> gave it a second thought. But since R/C models are meant to be flown (and
> don't sit on a shelf hopefully) you never know who might be at a field
and
> who you may offend. Should I be at all concerned ? Has anyone here ever
> felt offended by a swastika on an R/C model ? Am I just being
oversensitive
> in this age of political correctness ?
>
Charles House
> Well, I'm Jewish, and I wouldn't mind as long as it's on a scale plane, and
> not on a fun fly or something. My friend and I both fly EPP combat
> gliders...me a P-51 and him an Fw-190 with full markings.
>
> My own plane has lots of swastikas on it in fact....lots of little ones, just
> below the canopy. :)
>
I am amazed (but not surprised) that not a single respondent to this thread has
felt ill at ease by the swastika. The phrase that is overwhelmingly used in this
thread is "political correctness, or "PC", as if the sadest, greatest outrage in
human history could be couched in such terms. I started flying RC in 1973 and I
have felt a stomach turning something or other every time I've seen a plane with
a swastika on it. I am not jewish, as Brett is, but I nevertheless can't seem to
get comfortable with this thing. It would be OK if everyone who chose ("chose"
is the right word) to use these symbols of the ultimate horror had a healthy
regard for history, but I suspect that is not the case. What is the case, I
believe, is that people are carelessly putting the swastika on planes without
any thought of the mind numbing historical and moral significance, and throwing
around terms such as "political correctness" as if the issue here were whether
to make a Marines Corsair or a Navy Corsair. I know I'll get flamed with this
post but I've said my piece. As an ex Navy flyer I feel I earned the right. A
final word: I am not objecting to the use of the swastika on a model per se; I
am objecting to the tone of so many of the respondents.
--Charles House
Scar
<ecre...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I say go for it.
>SNIP<
>A logo on your model stating, "I'm proud to be flying a
>model made of rain forest wood", would also add a nice
>touch.
>
>One last final touch would be a bumper sticker declaring,
>"SAVE THE WHALES!!! - the barbecue is next week!".
Ed,
I love it! Reminds me of the Bob Newhart biography, where his
daughter was giving him grief about eating lamb. Next time they went
to a snooty french restaurant, Bob slipped the waiter a script. The
waiter described the "specials" on the script - a baby harp seal
fillet in wine sauce, snail darter appetizers, etc. The daughter was
horrified, Newhart had a good laugh.
Dave Olson
Scar
Check out MA, Feb. 2001, page 106. The reader explained to Jeff that
he'd mistaken the Finnish "hakaristi" for a swastika. It was on a
Buffalo. Lists several URL's about Finnish aircraft history.
Dave Olson
On Mon, 08 Jan 2001 21:31:11 GMT, Red Scholefield <red...@fdt.net>
wrote:
DUBOLIN
>the rear window of your pickup truck and you and I have a bit of
>problem...
I think I stated once that in this country, there is an extraordinary
dichotomy. In one sense people accept this silly-ass wardrobe that a guy like
David Lee Roth prances around in as long as its on stage. Put the same guy and
outfit in the neighborhood watering hole and the local boys would have more fun
with him than a three-legged man in an ass kicking contest. Steven R Bolin
punder...@my-deja.com
kcas...@datasync.com (Ken Cashion) wrote:
> And as I said before, "The shallow cannot separate the symbol
> from the substance."
> We have forgotten the words "context" and "restraint."
>
> Cheers -- Ken Cashion
> --------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly right. My second model was a Midwest Messerschmitt, complete
with swastikas provided by the company. I actually had a neighbor
question (and then insinuate) that the swastikas represented my
political leanings.
But this guy was DUMB AS A STUMP. Truly, obviously a high-school
dropout. No reasonably intelligent, educated person has ever given the
slightest hint they were offended.
I don't think anyone at a flying field will misunderstand the meaning
of a swastika, or a red star for that matter, on a scale airplane. If
it offends YOU, by all means take it off and repaint the plane for
another country. Luckily Italian, Hungarian, etc. 109s were often more
interesting than those in German markings, and I'm sure you can find
Axis or postwar paint schemes for almost any German plane you're likely
to build a model of. But don't do so for fear of offending someone
else.
Patrick
grd...@my-deja.com
wrote:
>On Mon, 08 Jan 2001 18:45:59 GMT, grd...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 08 Jan 2001 01:59:17 GMT, "B & C Duffey" <duf...@ieee.org>
>
>>For heven sake, paint it the way it was. I do think this PC crap is
>>out of control. Why should we try to change history. In any case,
>>the flap is for Nazi memorabilia not models of Nazi planes.
>>My two cents.
>
> Gene, in regards to memorabilia.
> To offer a little different perspective on this kind of stuff.
> WWII was the most important world event in my life-time (so
>far), I was a military contractor in the Cold War and was in Berlin
>during some of this time, and after that, for decades from the Cuban
>Missile Crisis on, there were real concerns for US security.
> I say that, to say this --
> I enjoy looking at Nazi memorablia and particularly in my
>house in quiet south Mississippi.
Big snip:
>Cheers -- Ken Cashion
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>
Hi Ken,
Thanks for your perspective. I did not mean that I don't enjoy
looking at Nazi memorablia, I am interested in WWII because my
favorite (late) uncle was in the Great War as a B-24 belly gunner. He
flew out of England in the day light raids where they had 60% losses
each and every time they went on a mission. He was lucky, his plane
never got hit. The Davis luck as he called it. I have GREAT respect
for the fighting men on each side but that sure doesn't mean I favor
Nazis. Most of the fighting men (on all sides) were just like you
and I, they would have rather been home. All of the military men
(and women) are heros in my book. I was in the famous 4080 th Strat.
Recon. Wing in 57 and 58. We lost so many pilots in the U-2s. They
were real heros too..
Now I am rambling.
Good luck Ken.
DUBOLIN
quite healthy is the fact that these individuals can afford to take the view of
historical accuracy and at the same time thumb their nose at Hitler for one and
at people who have literally outlawed any such display. I believe we are all
well aware of the significance of the situation but should the display of
history be condemned? And by the way, I'm not going to flame you simply because
your response to begin with is not one that deserves it. Though I too have
wondered if this is a PC issue or not. I do not agree with the banning of such
material but is it really about this PC thing? Buzz words do catch on and some
die harder than others I suppose. Steven R Bolin
Paul Burke
I have
> a few contest videos from Top Gun, Joe Nall, etc. On one video was a
fat
> Russian biplane done up in Swiss markings. Guess what the Swiss
markings
> were in the 30's? Big swastikas!
>
> Apparently Hitler borrowed the swastika for his own use.
>
> Oh, and there were plenty of other scale aircraft that had the
swastikas on
> them. These were big contests with many spectators and participants.
I
> have not heard of a protest on this issue.
>
> --
> Best Regards,
>
> jc
The light blue swastika on the white circle on the Soviet planes.. That
was the insignia of the Finnish government that turned to German support
after losing the "Continuation War" to the Soviets, in 1941. The Nazi
party adopted the swastika years before that.
Swiss markings for the period were red and white crosses. Similar to the
Balkan crosses in use by the German Luftwaffe for the WWII period.
--
PJB's Seriously Aeronautical Stuff
http://www.networkone.net/~pjburke
Cain Fly
>this
>thread is "political correctness, or "PC", as if the sadest, greatest outrage
>in
>human history could be couched in such terms
Personally I cannot understand your connection here. I think Gramci's
cultural changes and dumbing down of the USA to accept the current United
Nations programs and conspiracies and the cowardices to accept the "political
correct" thinking is far worse than a Swastika or what it really stands for.
HC/TX
RCFlyr
RCFlyr wrote:
Put them on the models, but don't ever forget what they stood for. Also, don't
forget what the communists did to their own people either, they murdered more
people than the NAZI's ever did, they just werent going after a particular
group. If you brush history under the carpet because you don't like it, you are
doomed to repeat it eventually.
RCFlyr sed that!!!!
Bill Archibald
>Wonder what Frank Zappa would say about this if he were still around....
"Suzie, Suzie Creamcheese, this is the voice of your conscience
speaking"
and
"Plastic People, oh you're such a drag"
or how about
"Cover that girl in chocolate syrup, and love her to the cows come
home"
or
"I don't care what you want to examine me for, you ain't gonna stick
YOUR finger there" .... ooops sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone by
my cras, tasteless, and disrespectful humor <g>
-bill
(valid e-address.... user name = warch
domain = rcwizard.com )
Bill Archibald
Charlie,
why is it OK to be PC about flag burning but not about representing
Nazi's ??? You seem to be in favor of a double standard. Either you
are for freedom of expression or you are for censorship.
This news group often clambers on the "Free Speech" bandwagon but
often misplaces the intent of the law by applying it Yahoo, or
RCOnline, or some other PRIVATE institution in the manner it may apply
rules of conduct. Our constitutional right of free speech was
explicitly enacted to protect the rights of Americans to speak out
against our government. Burning the flag in protest of the government
is the essence of what so many have died for in the name of our flag.
It may rightly piss the hell out of you, but that's what freedom of
speech is all about. Although Voltaire was a 18th century Frenchman,
his famous line is oft used to express this country's love for freedom
of speech.....
-bill
On Mon, 08 Jan 2001 18:22:26 GMT, wo...@dont.botherme.net (Charlie
Wolf) wrote:
Bluhawk 1
>I am amazed (but not surprised) that not a single respondent to this thread
>has
>felt ill at ease by the swastika.
I guess I fall into the "feel ill at ease by the swastika" on models. That
particular symbol along with too many others to mention should make one feel
uncomfortable.
However banning a symbol and pretending it does not exist does not solve the
problem either.
I would like to think that 90+% of the swastikas on model aircraft are there
either for scale authentication purposes or to as one responder wrote to "thumb
their nose" to the Nazi's.
But even if they are there in support of the Nazi's we have free speech here in
the U.S. and while I would personally have a problem with this type of display
I would not try to censor it either.
A similar argument can be made against the markings of any of our enemies who
have inflicted pain and harm upon us. I'm certain there are modelers around
the world who are not too keen on the Stars and Stripes showing up on so many
tailfeathers either ...
My $.02 is you have to make the yes/no call on your own and be prepared for
someone to comment on either side of the issue. Bottom line anytime we model a
scale warbird we are re-creating the image of a machine that was designed to
kill large numbers of people. That alone will offend some people, but has not
stopped me from building a P-51 or an F-16.
Brian Lewis
Bob S.
Since putting swastikas on the plane causes such an uproar, you might as
well also install a pilot with his arm out the canopy, middle finger
raised....
Just kidding,
Bob :-)
Brett Jaffee
>
>I am amazed (but not surprised) that not a single respondent to this thread has
>felt ill at ease by the swastika. The phrase that is overwhelmingly used in
> this
>thread is "political correctness, or "PC", as if the sadest, greatest outrage
> in
>human history could be couched in such terms. I started flying RC in 1973 and I
>have felt a stomach turning something or other every time I've seen a plane
> with
>a swastika on it. I am not jewish, as Brett is, but I nevertheless can't seem
> to
>get comfortable with this thing
I understand where you're coming from. I too am uncomforable what is
sometimes an overuse of "anti-pc." I haven't seen it in this thread, but I
have seen cases in other newsgroups where folks use the "I'm not PC" line to
cover blantant anti-semitism or racism. I found most of the purveyors of PC
to be overly obnoxious and self-rightious, but sometimes the anti-pc backlash
is just as bad....along the lines of people saying "Jews are cheap
backstabbing bastards...but hey, I'm not racist, I'm just not PC is all."
Uh..yeah, and so was Adolf, I guess.
At any rate, I think it may be worse to cover up the swastikas. If they are
put on a scale subject and some people feel revulsion...well, maybe that's a
good thing. At least it keeps people from forgetting the past.
__________________________________________________________________________
Brett Jaffee
Brett's Slope and Power Home Page:
http://home.earthlink.net/~jaffee
The Unoffical Extra 300 Home Page:
http://www.bayarea.net/~nathan/extra300/
OnTheWay: Quake 2 & 3 server utility
http://www.planetquake.com/ontheway
REMOVE THE "NOSPAM" FROM MY EMAIL ADDRESS BEFORE REPLYING!
__________________________________________________________________________
B & C Duffey
old daughter made it out of sculpy clay - her own design - I just told her
how big I wanted it (and hollowed it out before it was baked)
below is a link to see it
http://home.cfl.rr.com/csduffey/fw_pilot.jpg
Chris
"Bob S." <desm...@capital.net> wrote in message
news:93e5ae$drg$1...@newsfeed.logical.net...
James G. Branaum
"Ken Cashion" <kcas...@datasync.com> wrote in message
news:3a5a10ac...@news.datasync.com...
> On Mon, 08 Jan 2001 14:57:41 GMT, "James G. Branaum" <j...@flash.net>
> wrote:
>
> <snip of a bunch of Cashion stuff>
>
> >> "PC" means "Public Cowardice."
> >>
> >> Cheers -- Ken Cashion
> >> --------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >
>
> This is the internet and an international forum and here you
> go and ask permission to use something on it! This alone makes me
> question your motives. :o) Jim, just joking, of course.
> My son said something the other day that was interesting and
> on the subject.
> He said that people who confront someone about their political
> incorrectness really don't care about the PC part; they just don't
> like them. PC criticism has become the tool by which people abuse
> those they dislike. It is always conveniently "there" for use.
> I have noticed this but had not made the connection.
> All we need to remember is that we are to play nice with
> others and be tactful and try not to hurt someone's feelings --
> additionally, we need to remember that life is not fair and no one
> promised us a stressfree life.
> There are going to be things we don't like and we are just
> going to have to learn to live with it.
>
>
>
> Cheers -- Ken Cashion
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
Gosh Ken,
My Daddy taught me that before you make off with a man's idea, you ought to
ask him first! A good many folks in the world just don't seem to have the
intestinal fortitude to do that. I couldn't be one like that! Besides,
your son is right!
I have also noted that folks who brag about being politically incorrect tend
to be purveyors of falsehoods and use their 'incorrectness' to hide that
fact. The rest of us are just politically incorrect when the need arises!
That is why I did not worry when my FW 190 had swastika's on it or not. It
flew, it was scale, and it was mine.
Thanks,
Jim Branaum j...@flash.net AMA 1428
Another modeler providing glue for the AMA
Ken Cashion
wrote:
>On Mon, 08 Jan 2001 15:31:17 GMT, Jim McIntyre wrote'
>
>>Wonder what Frank Zappa would say about this if he were still around....
<snip of potentially great lyrics>
>"I don't care what you want to examine me for, you ain't gonna stick
>YOUR finger there" .... ooops sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone by
>my cras, tasteless, and disrespectful humor <g>
Well, I am offended!
I am offended by people who apologize for offending me and
they make me feel bad and I think someone to make a law that I should
not have to be offended by apologizing people.
Afterall, I have my rights.
And why would you want to do something that offends me? :o)
By the way, I have found that when someone says, "I have my
rights," it means that they want to eliminate one of mine.
Ken Cashion
wrote:
>
>"Ken Cashion" <kcas...@datasync.com> wrote in message
>news:3a5a10ac...@news.datasync.com...
>> On Mon, 08 Jan 2001 14:57:41 GMT, "James G. Branaum" <j...@flash.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> <snip of a bunch of Cashion stuff>
>>
>> >> "PC" means "Public Cowardice."
>> >>
>> >> Cheers -- Ken Cashion
>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >
>> >Nice line, mind if I use it elsewhere?
>>
>> This is the internet and an international forum and here you
>> go and ask permission to use something on it! This alone makes me
>> question your motives. :o) Jim, just joking, of course.
>> My son said something the other day that was interesting and
>> on the subject.
>> He said that people who confront someone about their political
>> incorrectness really don't care about the PC part; they just don't
>> like them. PC criticism has become the tool by which people abuse
>> those they dislike. It is always conveniently "there" for use.
<snip of yet more Cashion stuff>
>Gosh Ken,
>My Daddy taught me that before you make off with a man's idea, you ought to
>ask him first!
Yeah, but I bet your Daddy was older than you.
And he lived in a different time when there were such things
as "context" and "restraint."
We are in a different time now (unfortunately).
I really, really do try to be nice and play politely with my
playmates and share my toys, but it is really, really hard to do that
sometimes because some of the kids want their way and they don't like
it when I want mine. (I kick sand in their faces -- and then run away
real fast.)
Thanks for the e-post. I am always interested in your
thoughts.
<little snip>
>That is why I did not worry when my FW 190 had swastika's on it or not. It
>flew, it was scale, and it was mine.
Oh, I am much worse than that.
I have a Razor and I thought it looked very German-like at the
end of WWII, so in a fit of self-expression, I put camo on it,
crosses, and yes, (PC police forgive me) swastikas.
I also made it appear to have a diesel engine -- I just now
realized that by so doing, I am implying that I want to polute the
atmosphere.
Well...as the fat little comic said, "I'm a b-a-a-d boy!"
(Please note - "fat" should have read "one suffering from the
disease of gravity impairment.")
Ken Cashion
>In article <3a5a173e...@news.datasync.com>,
> kcas...@datasync.com (Ken Cashion) wrote:
>> And as I said before, "The shallow cannot separate the symbol
>> from the substance."
>> We have forgotten the words "context" and "restraint."
>>
>> Cheers -- Ken Cashion
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Exactly right. My second model was a Midwest Messerschmitt, complete
>with swastikas provided by the company. I actually had a neighbor
>question (and then insinuate) that the swastikas represented my
>political leanings.
>
>But this guy was DUMB AS A STUMP. Truly, obviously a high-school
>dropout. No reasonably intelligent, educated person has ever given the
>slightest hint they were offended.
<snip>
Patrick, if you take your model to a fly-in and the general
public is there, I can almost promise you that someone in the group
will comment to their friends about the swastika.
It has gone (most recently) from the symbol of a German labor
union, to a horrible emblem to see overhead, to a symbol representing
a mad-man who, like all mortals passed away, and finally, it has gone
from "chic contempt," to a fad, to now, yet another "thing" that
offends "people" and we ought to make all these "bad things" go away
so we can all live happily ever after and feel self-righteous while
doing so.
If I lived in a geneally Jewish neighborhood and flew with
those guys, there is no way I would build a German model, with or
without a swatstika. It simply would be a hurtful thing for many.
And it would be so easy to avoid it.
But I have a culture also and I don't want someone else's to
interfer with mine as if theirs is somehow superior to mine.
The swastika is now back from being a joke to Americans
representing a struting, fallen jerk, and now it has been made an
issue where before it wasn't an issue.
There are many political essays I could quote on how these
things happen but it doesn't really matter.
It is a queer thing to me how someone can throw a pie in a
guy's face and it is laughable but if that guy throws a pie back, it
would be a violation of someone's civil rights.
But the fact is, the swastika does offend some people but then
it would be difficult to have a culture that offended no one.
Ken Cashion
Steve, I think the difference is "context."
If our kid does something horrible and turns right around and
asks our permission for a favor, he isn't likely to get it.
If the kid waits until he has done a few nice things and then
asks, he might get the favor.
I had to explain this definition of "context" to a son who
asked to borrow the second family car the day after he bent the wheel
on the first family car.
He understands "context" now.
He has five kids of his own. :o)
(And now Cashion is trying to over-populate the world even
more than it already it and he is contributing to the coming global
disaster.) :o)
Ken Cashion
wrote:
>
>Charlie,
>
>why is it OK to be PC about flag burning but not about representing
>Nazi's ??? You seem to be in favor of a double standard. Either you
>are for freedom of expression or you are for censorship.
<snip>
Charlie, I think there is an issue of "context" here. Flag
burning in one context is acceptable whereas flag burning in another
context is unacceptable.
There are things we might say in the heat of passion on a
Saturday night, however, the same comments might not go over too well
to the same woman while she is kneeling at a pew in a church the next
morning.
Context is real important sometimes.
Ken Cashion
>I am interested in WWII because my
>favorite (late) uncle was in the Great War as a B-24 belly gunner. He
>flew out of England in the day light raids where they had 60% losses
>each and every time they went on a mission.
Wow!! You had a hero in your family! Lucky you.
I wish people would accept the reality of the situation and
your point about the enemy soldier is one I wanted to make but was
taking me too long to get to it.
I have an essay with jpg of a few things that I call Image du
Jours that I pass around from time-to-time, and one is on what I think
was a typical German soldier. Those who are most offended by such
comments generally are not nearly the historians they should be -- at
least, not to enter into criticism of others.
Kill signs on the sides of American fighters, I find as sad as
the kill signs on the sides of the German fighters -- but on models,
they are just little stickers.
Good post.
Thank you for sharing.
Scar
wrote:
Bob, I love it! Reminds me of the old movie, "Battle of Britain" (I
think), where, if I recall correctly, the RAF pilots see a '109
passing over at about 50' with canopy open, tossing a chamber pot at
them. The pilots run over, pick it up, and one says "It's a bloody
Piss Pot! What does it mean?" The other one looks back at the
distant Messerschmitt, and says "It means we're at war."
Cheers!
Dave Olson
>
>
Bob S.
"B & C Duffey" <duf...@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:amx66.21704$Bb2.3...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
> Since you mentioned it - I am very proud of the pilot in my FW 190 - my 7
yr
> old daughter made it out of sculpy clay - her own design - I just told her
> how big I wanted it (and hollowed it out before it was baked)
>
> below is a link to see it
> http://home.cfl.rr.com/csduffey/fw_pilot.jpg
>
Chris,
That's the best pilot figure I've seen yet! I love the goggles. You SHOULD
be very proud!
Still smiling,
Bob Scott
Ed Cregger
it is the egomaniac politicians that are our true enemies.
--
Ed Cregger
ecre...@earthlink.net
"Ken Cashion" <kcas...@datasync.com> wrote
Ed Cregger
However, I have attained the age (notice that I did not say
maturity) where I can no longer "go along" with some of
society's trends.
The Nazi Party did exist. Pretending otherwise is very
dangerous, for all of the reasons that have been beaten into
our collective mind for so many years.
I wonder just who these people are that are deeply offended
by merely seeing a swastika? We have reached a point in time
where the majority of WWII concentration camp survivors are
either deceased or are no longer ambulatory. Younger folks
that find themselves deeply offended by a swastika are just
being dorks. Dorks are always offended by something and do
not deserve respect for their attitudes.
Yes, someone could possibly lose a flying field due to their
model bearing a swastika. Someone else could lose a field
because of an identifying mark on their model that
represented a country that someone else does not like. More
than likely, we will continue to lose fields because of
urban sprawl and the disdain for the sight of grown men
playing with toys. So be it.
--
Ed Cregger
ecre...@earthlink.net
"Ian Maclaughlin" <i...@nosc.mil> wrote
> Ed-
> I like the message in your post. Has the same sort of
irreverence for
> PC that is celebrated annually in a San Diego landmark
event, the Over-
> The-Line tournament. The team names are rarely heard or
seen on Wide
> World of Sports as most would make the prudes blood
churn - but some
> are strictly un-PC, patently offensive without the
forbidden
> words. "Gay Nazis for Christ" and "Nuke the Gay Whales
for Jesus" are
> a couple of examples that have something to offend nearly
everyone. I
> think it's healthy, and tends to defuse the epithets used
to convey
> hatred, by laughing at them. American patriots knew that
when they let
> their sense of humor prevail by applying 'Yankee Doodle
Dandy' to
> themselves, disarming their harrassers.
> Anyway, though I'd agree on a personal level with the guys
that say
> damn all the PCness, I'd temper it a bit out of
recognition of the
> value of maintaining a positive public image, particularly
where we
> rely on use of public owned property. Our model fields
will be more
> secure against negative community reaction if our
neighbors think well
> of us. Our neighbors may well harbor strong feelings,
rational or not,
> regarding symbols such as swastikas. Because of that I'd
avoid using
> them too casually or in venues where the motivation for
using them may
> not be obvious to the observer. IOW, I'd save it for use
where
> historical accuracy would be compromised without it, on
serious scale
> WWII models as someone suggested earlier in this thread.
>
> Ian
> San Diego
>
> In article
<ilj66.1703$Bp.7...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> "Ed Cregger" <ecre...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > I say go for it.
> >
> > And while you are at it, why not light up a cigarette or
> > cigar as often as you can?
> >
> > Of course, donning a Remington logo equipped baseball
cap
> > while wearing your hunting jacket with the hunting
license
> > proudly displayed on the back will certainly add to the
> > mood.
> >
> > A logo on your model stating, "I'm proud to be flying a
> > model made of rain forest wood", would also add a nice
> > touch.
> >
> > One last final touch would be a bumper sticker
declaring,
> > "SAVE THE WHALES!!! - the barbecue is next week!".
> > --
> > Ed Cregger
> > ecre...@earthlink.net
Ed Cregger
you out of the house before you graduate and you have to
hustle in order to survive. It had never occurred to me that
it happened because I was stupid.
Some of the dimmest individuals I have met have been
"educated", holding masters degrees and even doctorates.
Colleges and universities do not confer common sense,
without which, all else is moot.
Educational snobbery is one of the latest trends in PC, in
case you haven't noticed.
Gee, isn't that how the Germans operated? First we find a
group and declare them inferior, then we can justify taking
anything they have because they don't deserve it, or they
are less than human...
--
Ed Cregger
ecre...@earthlink.net
<punder...@my-deja.com> wrote
(snip) Truly, obviously a high-school dropout. No
reasonably intelligent, educated person has ever given the
slightest hint they were offended. (snip)
aerogra...@my-deja.com
exterminated by the Nazis. So I asked her the question that you
mentioned, and her response was if you build a scale airplane then make
it scale. Just don't put one of those things on your Giles or Extra 330.
Roger
Multiplex dealer
Pure Light Fiber Optic (servo extensions)
http://www.aerografixs.com
"The significant problems we face today,
cannot be solved at the same level of
thinking we were at when we created them"
In article <V9966.14434$Bb2.2...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>,
"B & C Duffey" <duf...@ieee.org> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Here is a question which has probably come up before...I am nearing
> completion of a semi-scale FW 190 which I am giving an accurate paint
job
> and am somewhat concerned about putting the swastika on the tail. I
had
> built plenty of plastic models of axis aircraft during my youth and
never
> gave it a second thought. But since R/C models are meant to be flown
(and
> don't sit on a shelf hopefully) you never know who might be at a
field and
> who you may offend. Should I be at all concerned ? Has anyone here
ever
> felt offended by a swastika on an R/C model ? Am I just being
oversensitive
> in this age of political correctness ?
>
> Thanks
>
> Chris Duffey
> AMA 699853 < new member
>
>
Steve Abrams
Steve
"Charlie Wolf" <wo...@dont.botherme.net> wrote in message
news:3a5a03af...@news.frontiernet.net...
> Ditto what et al have said. Let me add this:
>
> I liken this to the flag-burning issue. I've burned about 50 -60
> American Flags. But when I did it, I was a member of a color guard
> unit for my local Legion Post, and we were destroying tattered
> American flags in a private (and solemn) ceremony.
>
> Big difference between that and the a_ _ hole that burns one on the
> steps of the Capital 'cause he/she wants to protest American
> involvment in Nicarauga ( pick your very own leftist isuue here).
>
> Both of us burned a Flag - but the flag didn't need to be protected
> from our local Color Guard.
>
> Put it on your FW 190 and I ain't got a problem with it. Put it on
> the rear window of your pickup truck and you and I have a bit of
> problem...
> Regards,
>
> On Mon, 08 Jan 2001 01:59:17 GMT, "B & C Duffey" <duf...@ieee.org>
Steve Abrams
against the law. I also believe when the flag burning issue went before the
courts the courts decided that flag burning falls under the freedom of
speech. Henceforth flag burning was no longer illegal but legal.
You have to use common sense. A model that is in the shape of a military
aircraft of a bygone era and painted in the color scheme of that ere may be
offensive to someone. Was it intended to be offensive? OR was it meant to be
a reproduction of a historical airvraft? Now that you mention it.... Seeing
all those blue bi-planes at the flying field is starting to look offensive
to me.
Steve
"Bill Archibald" <nos...@myISP.com> wrote in message
news:+25aOshE+ZI91H4eKY=wvFw...@4ax.com...
James G. Branaum
DON'T start speaking in tongues!
Fat is fat and that is all there is to it. The only thing that is gravity
impaired is balsa. That darned gravity magnet keeps pulling it down..down
to the ring of fire...WOOPS, wrong song!
Charlie Wolf
You have made the same error in judgement that many of friends "from
the other side of the aisle" have made...
There is a significant difference between speech and behavior. I
strongly support anybody's right to free speech. Example: Republican
Congress (BTW, I are one...) a few years back passed a bill that made
it agianst DoD regulations to sell Playboy's and Penthouse's in the
military post exchanges. Somehow it got reversed and I've been buying
Playboy's every chance I get in the Navy Exchange - in protest, of
course <G>.
Let me offer another example of the falicy of your arguement. If
behavior like flag burning can be construed as free speech, then if I
beat the living crap out of the guy on the Capital steps for burning
the flag, isn't my behavior free speech too??
The obvious answer is no. Burning the flag is behavior - not speech
and I don't support it.
As for "representing Nazi's", I think we need to be sensitive to the
concerns of others (like perhaps Jewish members of our clubs), but we
also need to be careful about re-writing history. You're comments (or
criticisms) are appreciated though...
Regards,
On Tue, 09 Jan 2001 03:58:36 GMT, Bill Archibald <nos...@myISP.com>
wrote:
>
Charlie Wolf
either...
Regards,
Brian Cullen
<aerogra...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:93f6mo$mhe$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Chris, my wife is Jewish from Israel and a lot of her
family was
> exterminated by the Nazis. So I asked her the question
that you
> mentioned, and her response was if you build a scale
airplane then make
> it scale. Just don't put one of those things on your Giles
or Extra 330.
>
> Roger
> Multiplex dealer
> Pure Light Fiber Optic (servo extensions)
> http://www.aerografixs.com
Roger
That is a spot-on answer in my book.
The swastika on the tail of a Bf-109G is part of a proper
historical representation of the aircraft, therefore as a
scale modeller one would be right to put it on there. The
symbol in that context doesn't mean that you are a Nazi, or
that you agree with anything done by them. However to leave
the symbol on or off is a matter of personal choice - I
wouldn't berate anyone if they did decide to leave it off -
I personally have put the swastika on the tail of my German
aircraft, but that doesn't mean it feels "right" for
everyone.
Certainly there are legal aspects to be considered if the
kit is made, imported or displayed in Germany. The decal
sheet for the Revell Germany 1:48th scale Me163 that I
bought the other week is very detailed, with all the
correct markings, but lacks the swastika for precisely that
reason. In contrast the semi-scale Pica Bf109 kit I bought
last year has only a few markings but these do include the
swastika. Ken made the point that it is about context - I
believe that is correct and that it is appropriate to put a
swastika on a scale model of an aircraft that carried one -
such as a Bf109E - or several as in the case of victory
markings on a Bob Stanford-Tuck Hurricane.
OTOH I would wonder about the motives of one who put a
swastika on the tail of a CAP-231, Something Extra or Wot 4.
If somebody did this to "make a point" about being anti-PC
then IMHO they would be way off the mark. However many
non-scale Ugly Stiks and Lite Stiks (mine included) have
Maltese crosses on them - though that symbol does not have
the same connotation as the swastika - neither does the
"normal" Luftwaffe cross. The Luftwaffe reverted to the
Maltese cross in post war years and still use it today and
there doesn't seem to be any objection to that symbol. There
is just something additional to the swastika that does raise
people's sensibilities- which cannot be addressed by
pretending it never had those connotations.
That's just my opinion and I'm glad I am able to post it
here due to the swastika on the tail of my Bf109 being a
representation of the past rather than the present.
Of course there are those who believe that you shouldn't
even be *building* German aeroplanes, so the swastika
becomes a secondary issue to them.
cheers
Brian
leccy...@aol.com
Brian Cullen
Steve Abrams <godfreydaniel@(nospam)home.com> wrote in
message
news:_yF66.77171$36.32...@news1.rdc1.il.home.com...
> I second that!
>
> Steve
>
> "Charlie Wolf" <wo...@dont.botherme.net> wrote in message
> news:3a5a03af...@news.frontiernet.net...
Put it on
> > the rear window of your pickup truck and you and I have
a bit of
> > problem...
> > Regards,
> >
Steve and Charlie
That makes sense to me. A good point well illustrated.
cheers
Brian
C.J.Y.
Ed Cregger <ecre...@earthlink.net> wrote :
> Yes, someone could possibly lose a flying field due to their
> model bearing a swastika. Someone else could lose a field
> because of an identifying mark on their model that
> represented a country that someone else does not like.
Sure everybody remembers only the Nazis. But did you know that during the
1800's and early
1900's the British operated MORE concentration camps than the Nazis ever
had ?
The Spanish conquistadors virtually wiped out the entire Aztec civilization.
Early American immigrants slaughtered the indigenous Indians unmercifully.
The Japanese are guilty of horrendous acts of war crime, even pre-WW2.
Etc. Etc.
How can you feel bad about a swastika on a historically accurate
scale model., but then use your Japanese radio to fly it ?
Chollie
"Mathew Kirsch" <kir...@tallgeese.dynodns.net> wrote in message
news:tmk66.9903$_G5.1...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
> Anonymous <anon...@anonymous.anonymous> wrote:
> The swastika is only offensive if the person that uses it subscribes to
the
> ideals of the Nazi regime. If you put the swastika on the plane for scale
> representation, it's meaningless. Heck, you can simply point the legs of
> the swastika in the other direction, and it's like a good luck symbol in
> certain African countries, isn't it?
It is or was a good luck sign for some American Indian tribes. It was also
adopted by Finland as the national marking on Finnish planes for a while
before WW 2 but was dropped after the opening of hostilities.
Ken Cashion
<godfreydaniel@(nospam)home.com> wrote:
>Correct me if I'm wrong but, I believe that at one time flag burning WAS
>against the law. I also believe when the flag burning issue went before the
>courts the courts decided that flag burning falls under the freedom of
>speech. Henceforth flag burning was no longer illegal but legal.
Steve, if you were replying to my post (I have a hard time
figuring out the ">>>"s sometimes), I didn't say anything about what
is or is not legal.
I used the terms "acceptable" and "unacceptable" and it is
society that usually determines this, and it varies by the locale.
Slavery was legal but morally wrong (apparently) and then it
was illegal (and still morally wrong); abortion was illegal and now is
legal...but moral?
Once it was legal to deprive gypsies, the retarded, Jews, and
other identified folks of their property and send them to death camps.
I have a difficult time tracking what a bunch of folks decide
is legal and illegal, but my sense of morality is personal and
transcends the pettiness of vogue political whimsy.
But people already know that I am weird. :o)
Ken Cashion
<ecre...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Sadly, we, the people of all nations, have not learned that
>it is the egomaniac politicians that are our true enemies.
Yep. 'Tis sad but true that the greatest threat to my
financial security and sense of well-being is the US Legislature.
And why I thought of this, I don't know, but I believe it was
Thomas Hardy who wrote --
"Peace upon earth!" was said. We sing it
And pay a million priests to bring it.
After two thousand years of mass
We've got as far as poison-gas."
So true.
So sad.
Ken Cashion
Ken Cashion
Wolf) wrote:
>Yep - I agree. Let's not forget the Rising Sun and Pearl Harbor
>either...
Oh, I don't.
For nearly 20 years, on each Dec. 7th and each Aug. 6th, I
would put the same little sign on my office door -- "Remember Pearl
Harbor."
I retired before this would have become unacceptable social
behavior.
(Please note -- the discussions we are having on this topic
could get a person in a lot of trouble should the discussions occur on
almost any civilian government facility.
Bery
Seen plenty of them in german model mags reporting on shows in germany , the
plane is kitted by several german companies.
So I suspect it is rather a size and certification issue than the plane type
himself being banned.
Cheers
Georges
Ken Cashion wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Jan 2001 17:12:07 +0100, Bery <be...@ebu.ch> wrote:
>
> >Just don't fly it in Germany, there you could be fined 'cause they made a
> >strict association of swastika = nazi.
>
> Bery, a friend of mine, Louis Langhurst, built a 70% Stuka.
> Even at 70%, it was still a big airplane. He and his wife would fly
> it to airshows and he put on a good demonstration flight with it.
> It was marked the same as Rudel's and Rudel had visited Louie
> and seen the Stuka -- Rudel was impressed -- and teary eyed.
> Louie decided to sell it and it was a near-done deal -- an
> international commercial pilot for Lufthansa was going to buy it.
> He knew that he would have to paint over the swastikas.
> But then he learned that he could not license it in
> Germany and could not fly it. Stukas are illegal apparently -- not
> just the insignias and markings but the whole aircraft -- even one
> that is 70%.
> The deal fell through.
Mike Grey
Mike
Ken Cashion
>Hi Ken,
>Seen plenty of them in german model mags reporting on shows in germany , the
>plane is kitted by several german companies.
>So I suspect it is rather a size and certification issue than the plane type
>himself being banned.
This was a real airplane rather than model. They carried
their clothes in the fake bomb.
It would look "real" to anyone who had not seen an original.
At the end of WWI, the Fokker D-VIII was to be destroyed.
There were comments about destroying aircraft in general but that
airplane was specified by type.
I think a similar thing was done in some of the WWII addendum
terms from some of the other countries in Europe.
I do know that a full-sized DR-1 is flying in Germany and
those markings are OK.
Ken Cashion
<brian....@virgin.net> wrote:
<snip of good stuff>
>OTOH I would wonder about the motives of one who put a
>swastika on the tail of a CAP-231, Something Extra or Wot 4.
>If somebody did this to "make a point" about being anti-PC
>then IMHO they would be way off the mark.
This is going to be seen more and more. Just like when people
resent single-finger gestures in public, four-letter words on bumper
stickers and the like, the more it is displayed by those who resent
anyone trying to force their opinion on them -- even if the subject is
proper taste and common courtesy.
It is defiance for defiance sake.
I understand it.
No one asks me (or cares) what I think about it. :o)
Ed Cregger
--
Ed Cregger
ecre...@earthlink.net
"C.J.Y." <n...@way.com> wrote in message
news:93fcgb$fe1$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Ed Cregger
--
Ed Cregger
ecre...@earthlink.net
"Ken Cashion" <kcas...@datasync.com> wrote
(snip)
Nitin Joshi
this swastica is exactly in reverse direction of nazi swastika ( leg's pointing
in other direction ), it is used as a decoration also during religious ceremony
and other festivals ( like thanksgiving equivalent )
SFeld
a doubletake. I find myself looking at the owner and wondering why this is the
model of choice. Put the emblems on your model, and face the music.
Charles House
Brett Jaffee wrote:
> In article <3A5A4FED...@home.com>, Charles House <nho...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >I am amazed (but not surprised) that not a single respondent to this thread has
> >felt ill at ease by the swastika. The phrase that is overwhelmingly used in
> > this
> >thread is "political correctness, or "PC", as if the sadest, greatest outrage
> > in
> >human history could be couched in such terms. I started flying RC in 1973 and I
> >have felt a stomach turning something or other every time I've seen a plane
> > with
> >a swastika on it. I am not jewish, as Brett is, but I nevertheless can't seem
> > to
> >get comfortable with this thing
>
> I understand where you're coming from. I too am uncomforable what is
> sometimes an overuse of "anti-pc." I haven't seen it in this thread, but I
> have seen cases in other newsgroups where folks use the "I'm not PC" line to
> cover blantant anti-semitism or racism. I found most of the purveyors of PC
> to be overly obnoxious and self-rightious, but sometimes the anti-pc backlash
> is just as bad....along the lines of people saying "Jews are cheap
> backstabbing bastards...but hey, I'm not racist, I'm just not PC is all."
> Uh..yeah, and so was Adolf, I guess.
>
> At any rate, I think it may be worse to cover up the swastikas. If they are
> put on a scale subject and some people feel revulsion...well, maybe that's a
> good thing. At least it keeps people from forgetting the past.
>
> __________________________________________________________________________
> Brett Jaffee
>
> Brett's Slope and Power Home Page:
> http://home.earthlink.net/~jaffee
>
> The Unoffical Extra 300 Home Page:
> http://www.bayarea.net/~nathan/extra300/
>
> OnTheWay: Quake 2 & 3 server utility
> http://www.planetquake.com/ontheway
>
> REMOVE THE "NOSPAM" FROM MY EMAIL ADDRESS BEFORE REPLYING!
> __________________________________________________________________________
Well said, Brett.
--Charles House
Aileron37
but then use your Japanese radio to fly it ?
Absolutely, just like others complaining about the atrocities of communist
countries and flying an ARF made in China. rick
Red Scholefield
technology level that damn near did us in - and very well could have had
the man calling the plays not been a total madman letting his hatred and
emotions dictate his actions rather than military logic. When I look at a
German airplane I see some excellent engineering under very difficult
circumstances. When GE tried to optimize the design of the V-2 engine
shortly after the war they found their best effort replicated the captured
equipment designed by Von Braun and team. Lets not let our contempt for an
ideology get in the way of our ability to respect technology.
Red Scholefield - AMA 951 IMAA 18939
Dist V
SFeld
>model.,
>but then use your Japanese radio to fly it ?
I don't know why, but it feels different. A scale model aircraft is in a very
real way a celebration. Months and months of work, endless hours in the
workshop to build what? A symbol of the deepest hatred we may have ever seen?
It's not about PC or not PC, I never say anything to the owner, but I note it
in some strange way. I, personally, would never care to build such a model -
to each his own. Or should I say to each his OR HER own!! :)